OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 31, 2014, 08:06:00 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Intentional misrepresentation?  (Read 7332 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,157



« Reply #90 on: January 31, 2012, 06:58:05 PM »



Dear Witega,  I appreciate your postings and from what I have gleaned of your character you are a good person.

But I must say that I do not think I am happy to have a thread devoted to me with the Title of "Intentional misrepresentation?"   I do not think it was intentional but that impugns my honesty and integrity.

Actually, I believe witega was defending you.

His post, and many others, were transplanted to this new thread because the old thread was getting out of hand.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,157



« Reply #91 on: January 31, 2012, 07:00:02 PM »

Just wanted to see how this would look.  Wink

The title of this thread is interesting, to say the least  Wink.

If one looks up the word "lie" in a dictionary or thesaurus, one of the synonyms listed is....."misrepresentation".

I wonder what, precisely, the mods had in mind when naming this?
Exactly what you think I had in mind. It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread so it doesn't derail the thread from which I split this one.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #92 on: January 31, 2012, 07:58:01 PM »



Dear Witega,  I appreciate your postings and from what I have gleaned of your character you are a good person.

But I must say that I do not think I am happy to have a thread devoted to me with the Title of "Intentional misrepresentation?"   I do not think it was intentional but that impugns my honesty and integrity.

I believe Fr. Ambrose has already been made aware, but just for the record, I did not start this thread and I certainly did not choose the title for it. For whatever reason, the mod found my post on the previous thread to be the most convenient point for separating out the part he wanted to separate, and he chose the title with zero input from me.

I do not always agree with Fr. Ambrose but I have never implied, much less stated, that he is posting anything but his honest memories and opinions.

Than you, Witega.  Yes, a forum member kindly wrote and informed me it was not you who named this thread.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #93 on: January 31, 2012, 08:13:09 PM »

The title of this thread is interesting, to say the least  Wink.

If one looks up the word "lie" in a dictionary or thesaurus, one of the synonyms listed is....."misrepresentation".

I wonder what, precisely, the mods had in mind when naming this?
Exactly what you think I had in mind. It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread so it doesn't derail the thread from which I split this one.

Hmmmm.... I think it is very odd to have a thread focused on discussing whether a forum member is lying, and even more so when the member is an Orthodox priest.

You had all better consider yourselves challenged to prove this contention, at least the forum members who agree with what Peter has explained.

1. Just what facets of the Roman Catholic faith does Father Ambrose lie about....?

2.  Substantiate this with links to his messages.

Peter, I suppose there is the possibility that I am totally misunderstaning and you are raising the question of whether the Catholics are intentionally misrepresenting me?  But even so, it is still a very odd and somewhat intrusive thread and not a little destructive of the dignity of the prieshood, imo.

Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,726


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #94 on: January 31, 2012, 08:29:00 PM »

The title of this thread is interesting, to say the least  Wink.

If one looks up the word "lie" in a dictionary or thesaurus, one of the synonyms listed is....."misrepresentation".

I wonder what, precisely, the mods had in mind when naming this?
Exactly what you think I had in mind. It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread so it doesn't derail the thread from which I split this one.

Hmmmm.... I think it is very odd to have a thread focused on discussing whether a forum member is lying, and even more so when the member is an Orthodox priest.

You had all better consider yourselves challenged to prove this contention, at least the forum members who agree with what Peter has explained.

1. Just what facets of the Roman Catholic faith does Father Ambrose lie about....?

2.  Substantiate this with links to his messages.

Peter, I suppose there is the possibility that I am totally misunderstaning and you are raising the question of whether the Catholics are intentionally misrepresenting me?  But even so, it is still a very odd and somewhat intrusive thread and not a little destructive of the dignity of the prieshood, imo.


No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics. It's about time we had a thread where we could hash out these questions specifically and from both sides without derailing more threads.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #95 on: January 31, 2012, 08:50:18 PM »

The title of this thread is interesting, to say the least  Wink.

If one looks up the word "lie" in a dictionary or thesaurus, one of the synonyms listed is....."misrepresentation".

I wonder what, precisely, the mods had in mind when naming this?
Exactly what you think I had in mind. It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread so it doesn't derail the thread from which I split this one.

Hmmmm.... I think it is very odd to have a thread focused on discussing whether a forum member is lying, and even more so when the member is an Orthodox priest.

You had all better consider yourselves challenged to prove this contention, at least the forum members who agree with what Peter has explained.

1. Just what facets of the Roman Catholic faith does Father Ambrose lie about....?

2.  Substantiate this with links to his messages.

Peter, I suppose there is the possibility that I am totally misunderstaning and you are raising the question of whether the Catholics are intentionally misrepresenting me?  But even so, it is still a very odd and somewhat intrusive thread and not a little destructive of the dignity of the prieshood, imo.


No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics. It's about time we had a thread where we could hash out these questions specifically and from both sides without derailing more threads.

In that case, hash it out, dear man.  Produce the evidence.  Link to the messages in threads which I have derailed by misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith.  I know that I have not done that.  But you may be right - others may believe that I have done so (intentional misrepresentation, according to your thread title) and it may benefit them to hash it out.

I need to point out that my participation in this thread about me, defending myself, will be as I choose and I shall not respond to any nastiness publicly.

Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,157



« Reply #96 on: January 31, 2012, 08:57:31 PM »

The title of this thread is interesting, to say the least  Wink.

If one looks up the word "lie" in a dictionary or thesaurus, one of the synonyms listed is....."misrepresentation".

I wonder what, precisely, the mods had in mind when naming this?
Exactly what you think I had in mind. It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread so it doesn't derail the thread from which I split this one.

Hmmmm.... I think it is very odd to have a thread focused on discussing whether a forum member is lying, and even more so when the member is an Orthodox priest.

You had all better consider yourselves challenged to prove this contention, at least the forum members who agree with what Peter has explained.

1. Just what facets of the Roman Catholic faith does Father Ambrose lie about....?

2.  Substantiate this with links to his messages.

Peter, I suppose there is the possibility that I am totally misunderstaning and you are raising the question of whether the Catholics are intentionally misrepresenting me?  But even so, it is still a very odd and somewhat intrusive thread and not a little destructive of the dignity of the prieshood, imo.


No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics. It's about time we had a thread where we could hash out these questions specifically and from both sides without derailing more threads.

In that case, hash it out, dear man.  Produce the evidence.  Link to the messages in threads which I have derailed by misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith.

Threads which you have derailed? That isn't what PtA said:

Quote
No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 08:58:32 PM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #97 on: January 31, 2012, 09:08:21 PM »

To be honest with you, there's too much going on, both on this thread (far too many sub-topics and tangents for me to concentrate on) and in my life and work to devote the kind of time and energy needed to continue to engage here on a truly meaningful level--besides, you're as wily as a fox and slippery as a greased eel

Interesting. So does that mean that calling someone "as wily as a fox and slippery as a greased eel" isn't engaging on truly meaningful level?

I call upon J Michael, in the name of the truth, to substantiate his accusation against me.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #98 on: January 31, 2012, 09:14:15 PM »

The title of this thread is interesting, to say the least  Wink.

If one looks up the word "lie" in a dictionary or thesaurus, one of the synonyms listed is....."misrepresentation".

I wonder what, precisely, the mods had in mind when naming this?
Exactly what you think I had in mind. It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread so it doesn't derail the thread from which I split this one.

Hmmmm.... I think it is very odd to have a thread focused on discussing whether a forum member is lying, and even more so when the member is an Orthodox priest.

You had all better consider yourselves challenged to prove this contention, at least the forum members who agree with what Peter has explained.

1. Just what facets of the Roman Catholic faith does Father Ambrose lie about....?

2.  Substantiate this with links to his messages.

Peter, I suppose there is the possibility that I am totally misunderstaning and you are raising the question of whether the Catholics are intentionally misrepresenting me?  But even so, it is still a very odd and somewhat intrusive thread and not a little destructive of the dignity of the prieshood, imo.


No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics. It's about time we had a thread where we could hash out these questions specifically and from both sides without derailing more threads.

In that case, hash it out, dear man.  Produce the evidence.  Link to the messages in threads which I have derailed by misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith.

Threads which you have derailed? That isn't what PtA said:
Quote
No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics.

I see that you are right.  Peter has said

1. that Roman Catholics have derailed many threads.

2. the cause of their derailing many threads has been my misrepresentation of their faith.

Has anybody so far proved this?  After all, this thread is now on page three.  
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 09:15:58 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,069



« Reply #99 on: January 31, 2012, 09:35:21 PM »

since this thread has started in a very ill-like manner I am locking it.  Please re-start the thread with a clear subject that doesn't include attacking another poster in the first post -username! Orthodox-Catholic moderator
Logged

username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,069



« Reply #100 on: January 31, 2012, 09:57:51 PM »

upon review I'm reopening it.
Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,157



« Reply #101 on: January 31, 2012, 10:32:15 PM »

It saddens me that anyone in either of our Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) would even want to find ways to paint negative pictures of the other.  To what end, really?

That seems to be reading quite a bit into Fr. Ambrose's motivations. What I see is Fr. Ambrose talking about his *actual* experience as an RC decades ago. And he tends to get a bit impassioned when people blow off the actuality of his experience because it doesn't fit their theoretical models--a not incomprehensible reaction.

[
Warning for 40 days for ad hominem against Irish Hermit.

^^ This seems to be the same misunderstanding we discussed earlier: witega was defending him.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #102 on: January 31, 2012, 10:33:04 PM »

upon review I'm reopening it.

Thank you, Username!.

OK, folks, Peter the Aleut says I am consistently accused of lying...

Quote from:  PetertheAleut
It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying

Now is your chance to produce your evidence.

I think you have a rare and unheard of opportunity when the moderators allow a thread focused on judging/proving whether an Orthodox priest is a man of dishonesty, a consistent liar.   I doubt if such discussion would take place on other Orthodox venues.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,726


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #103 on: January 31, 2012, 10:51:38 PM »

The title of this thread is interesting, to say the least  Wink.

If one looks up the word "lie" in a dictionary or thesaurus, one of the synonyms listed is....."misrepresentation".

I wonder what, precisely, the mods had in mind when naming this?
Exactly what you think I had in mind. It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread so it doesn't derail the thread from which I split this one.

Hmmmm.... I think it is very odd to have a thread focused on discussing whether a forum member is lying, and even more so when the member is an Orthodox priest.

You had all better consider yourselves challenged to prove this contention, at least the forum members who agree with what Peter has explained.

1. Just what facets of the Roman Catholic faith does Father Ambrose lie about....?

2.  Substantiate this with links to his messages.

Peter, I suppose there is the possibility that I am totally misunderstaning and you are raising the question of whether the Catholics are intentionally misrepresenting me?  But even so, it is still a very odd and somewhat intrusive thread and not a little destructive of the dignity of the prieshood, imo.


No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics. It's about time we had a thread where we could hash out these questions specifically and from both sides without derailing more threads.

In that case, hash it out, dear man.  Produce the evidence.  Link to the messages in threads which I have derailed by misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith.

Threads which you have derailed? That isn't what PtA said:
Quote
No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics.

I see that you are right.  Peter has said

1. that Roman Catholics have derailed many threads.

2. the cause of their derailing many threads has been my misrepresentation of their faith.

Has anybody so far proved this?  After all, this thread is now on page three.  

No, Fr. Ambrose, it appears that you're misrepresenting me, and I suspect that you're doing so intentionally.

Many threads have been derailed, yes, but I'm not laying the blame on anyone in particular, be they Catholics or otherwise.
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #104 on: January 31, 2012, 10:57:37 PM »

Peter.....

Peter Everyone can See ,Even the Blind ,That
You Keep Hounding Fathers Posts, to Find Fault,
where there isn't Any...... police
 
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,726


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #105 on: January 31, 2012, 10:59:30 PM »



Dear Witega,  I appreciate your postings and from what I have gleaned of your character you are a good person.

But I must say that I do not think I am happy to have a thread devoted to me with the Title of "Intentional misrepresentation?"   I do not think it was intentional but that impugns my honesty and integrity.

I believe Fr. Ambrose has already been made aware, but just for the record, I did not start this thread and I certainly did not choose the title for it. For whatever reason, the mod found my post on the previous thread to be the most convenient point for separating out the part he wanted to separate, and he chose the title with zero input from me.

I do not always agree with Fr. Ambrose but I have never implied, much less stated, that he is posting anything but his honest memories and opinions.
Yes, I take the credit/blame for starting this thread. You are exactly correct in your assessment of my reasons for doing so.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,726


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #106 on: January 31, 2012, 11:00:20 PM »

Peter.....

Peter Everyone can See ,Even the Blind ,That
You Keep Hounding Fathers Posts, to Find Fault,
where there isn't Any...... police
 
Is Fr. Ambrose the only priest on this forum?
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #107 on: January 31, 2012, 11:04:28 PM »

Fr.Ambrose  of all the Clergy ,Is The Most Active Member ,
 And it Look's Like He's Fair Game For You... Grin
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 11:05:50 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
LBK
Warned
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,260


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #108 on: January 31, 2012, 11:05:08 PM »

Peter.....

Peter Everyone can See ,Even the Blind ,That
You Keep Hounding Fathers Posts, to Find Fault,
where there isn't Any...... police
 
Is Fr. Ambrose the only priest on this forum?

Stashko's spelling has always been a bit wayward. It's part of his posting character. He has simply omitted an apostrophe. Surely, PtA, with your superior skills, you should have spotted it.  
Logged
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,431


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #109 on: February 01, 2012, 12:19:22 AM »

Quote
It seems to me that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying

Such claims are worthless unless they are shown rather than simply told.

A thread like this is shameful without proof. I think the proof should be shown or close the thread -lacking clear proof it is unwarranted, unethical slander.

Assertions of this kind seem to me to literally ***saturate*** this forum (Catholic/Orthodox discussion, against Orthodox clergy in particular -not just Fr. Ambrose) often with a clear lack of convincing evidence. It is my view that one Roman Catholic poster in particular who shall remain unnamed here is one of the worst offenders of this sort I have ever seen anywhere at anytime on any internet forum, and that is saying quite a lot.

In another forum which I administrate such constant slander and belittling of alleged (seldom proven) "ignorance," purposeful distortion" etc. of any member -especially primarily by one "prosecuting" member- without clear and near irrefutable demonstration is not allowed and amounts to a bannable offense. We don't care if the accused is an atheist or a rightist or a leftist or a Christian or etc.; they have a right not to have to face personal slander -all the more a constant stream of it- unless it is demonstrated beyond all possible reasonable doubt. Such below the belt and/or careless nonsense would be unethical and unacceptable in any good newspaper or courtroom without firm proof and so it should be in a professionally adjudicated debate forum.


« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 12:31:58 AM by xariskai » Logged

Silly Stars
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,726


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #110 on: February 01, 2012, 02:05:46 AM »

Peter.....

Peter Everyone can See ,Even the Blind ,That
You Keep Hounding Fathers Posts, to Find Fault,
where there isn't Any...... police
 
Is Fr. Ambrose the only priest on this forum?

Stashko's spelling has always been a bit wayward. It's part of his posting character. He has simply omitted an apostrophe. Surely, PtA, with your superior skills, you should have spotted it.  
I wasn't even responding to his use of "fathers" instead of "father's".
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,726


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #111 on: February 01, 2012, 02:20:53 AM »

Peter.....

Peter Everyone can See ,Even the Blind ,That
You Keep Hounding Fathers Posts, to Find Fault,
where there isn't Any...... police
 
Actually, stashko, in this case I'm not finding fault with Fr. Ambrose. I didn't start this thread to state any suspicion I might have that Fr. Ambrose intentionally misrepresents Roman Catholic doctrine. I just note that he gets accused of this a lot, enough so that threads get derailed by these accusations. I'm finally giving him a chance to defend himself against these charges without threads getting derailed in the process.

And to you Catholic posters reading this thread, this is your chance to finally make your case against Fr. Ambrose, to "put up or shut up", as the saying goes. What evidence can you provide that Fr. Ambrose really does make a practice of intentionally misrepresenting your faith? Just repeating that charge against him means nothing if you can't prove it--besides that, repetition of your mantra is an intellectually lazy way to dodge your responsibility to offer a cogent defense of your faith. So I finally say to you: Prove your case against Fr. Ambrose by telling us what you really believe, or stop slandering him with the accusation that he intentionally misrepresents (IOW, lies about) your faith. The same goes for your accusations against Isa Almisry.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 03:44:13 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #112 on: February 01, 2012, 02:25:15 AM »

The title of this thread is interesting, to say the least  Wink.

If one looks up the word "lie" in a dictionary or thesaurus, one of the synonyms listed is....."misrepresentation".

I wonder what, precisely, the mods had in mind when naming this?
Exactly what you think I had in mind. It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread so it doesn't derail the thread from which I split this one.

Hmmmm.... I think it is very odd to have a thread focused on discussing whether a forum member is lying, and even more so when the member is an Orthodox priest.

You had all better consider yourselves challenged to prove this contention, at least the forum members who agree with what Peter has explained.

1. Just what facets of the Roman Catholic faith does Father Ambrose lie about....?

2.  Substantiate this with links to his messages.

Peter, I suppose there is the possibility that I am totally misunderstaning and you are raising the question of whether the Catholics are intentionally misrepresenting me?  But even so, it is still a very odd and somewhat intrusive thread and not a little destructive of the dignity of the prieshood, imo.


No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics. It's about time we had a thread where we could hash out these questions specifically and from both sides without derailing more threads.

In that case, hash it out, dear man.  Produce the evidence.  Link to the messages in threads which I have derailed by misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith.

Threads which you have derailed? That isn't what PtA said:
Quote
No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics.

I see that you are right.  Peter has said

1. that Roman Catholics have derailed many threads.

2. the cause of their derailing many threads has been my misrepresentation of their faith.

Has anybody so far proved this?  After all, this thread is now on page three.  

No, Fr. Ambrose, it appears that you're misrepresenting me, and I suspect that you're doing so intentionally.

I took care to study your post so that I would not misrepresent you and I do not believe that I did.  I am very careful about these things with you since I know how persnickety you are about all things major and minor.

Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,726


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #113 on: February 01, 2012, 02:27:41 AM »

The title of this thread is interesting, to say the least  Wink.

If one looks up the word "lie" in a dictionary or thesaurus, one of the synonyms listed is....."misrepresentation".

I wonder what, precisely, the mods had in mind when naming this?
Exactly what you think I had in mind. It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread so it doesn't derail the thread from which I split this one.

Hmmmm.... I think it is very odd to have a thread focused on discussing whether a forum member is lying, and even more so when the member is an Orthodox priest.

You had all better consider yourselves challenged to prove this contention, at least the forum members who agree with what Peter has explained.

1. Just what facets of the Roman Catholic faith does Father Ambrose lie about....?

2.  Substantiate this with links to his messages.

Peter, I suppose there is the possibility that I am totally misunderstaning and you are raising the question of whether the Catholics are intentionally misrepresenting me?  But even so, it is still a very odd and somewhat intrusive thread and not a little destructive of the dignity of the prieshood, imo.


No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics. It's about time we had a thread where we could hash out these questions specifically and from both sides without derailing more threads.

In that case, hash it out, dear man.  Produce the evidence.  Link to the messages in threads which I have derailed by misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith.

Threads which you have derailed? That isn't what PtA said:
Quote
No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics.

I see that you are right.  Peter has said

1. that Roman Catholics have derailed many threads.

2. the cause of their derailing many threads has been my misrepresentation of their faith.

Has anybody so far proved this?  After all, this thread is now on page three.  

No, Fr. Ambrose, it appears that you're misrepresenting me, and I suspect that you're doing so intentionally.

I took care to study your post so that I would not misrepresent you and I do not believe that I did.  I am very careful about these things with you since I know how persnickety you are about all things major and minor.


Looking back at what I posted, I've come to recognize that you understand what I said better than I first thought you did.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #114 on: February 01, 2012, 02:45:57 AM »

I shall not bothering replying to the nasty posts which we anticipate....

Examples from this thread...

Papist: " If you believe that Fr. Ambrose is really reporting what he has really experienced... otherwise..."

In other words, call me a liar.

"Because he is consistently misrepresents Catholics and Catholic teaching."

I don't.  In the cases to which Papist is referring he is ignorant of the beliefs of his Church prior to circa 1965.

Elijahmaria:  "I fail to see the need for Father Ambrose's hysteria over mortal sin."

The lady is way over the top. It's her way of negating what I wrote.  Hysteria?!

Wyatt:  "So are all Catholics going to hell, or just our clergy?"

The question constitutes the attribution of a belief to me which I have never thought or written.   It's in the same realm as "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

J Michael (quoted by Peter J):  "So does that mean that calling someone "as wily as a fox and slippery as a greased eel" isn't engaging on truly meaningful level?"

Stupid insults.

But I am b~o~r~e~d by this.  I cannot be bothered looking for more of these things.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #115 on: February 01, 2012, 02:49:46 AM »

The title of this thread is interesting, to say the least  Wink.

If one looks up the word "lie" in a dictionary or thesaurus, one of the synonyms listed is....."misrepresentation".

I wonder what, precisely, the mods had in mind when naming this?
Exactly what you think I had in mind. It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread so it doesn't derail the thread from which I split this one.

Hmmmm.... I think it is very odd to have a thread focused on discussing whether a forum member is lying, and even more so when the member is an Orthodox priest.

You had all better consider yourselves challenged to prove this contention, at least the forum members who agree with what Peter has explained.

1. Just what facets of the Roman Catholic faith does Father Ambrose lie about....?

2.  Substantiate this with links to his messages.

Peter, I suppose there is the possibility that I am totally misunderstaning and you are raising the question of whether the Catholics are intentionally misrepresenting me?  But even so, it is still a very odd and somewhat intrusive thread and not a little destructive of the dignity of the prieshood, imo.


No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics. It's about time we had a thread where we could hash out these questions specifically and from both sides without derailing more threads.

In that case, hash it out, dear man.  Produce the evidence.  Link to the messages in threads which I have derailed by misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith.

Threads which you have derailed? That isn't what PtA said:
Quote
No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics.

I see that you are right.  Peter has said

1. that Roman Catholics have derailed many threads.

2. the cause of their derailing many threads has been my misrepresentation of their faith.

Has anybody so far proved this?  After all, this thread is now on page three.  

No, Fr. Ambrose, it appears that you're misrepresenting me, and I suspect that you're doing so intentionally.

I took care to study your post so that I would not misrepresent you and I do not believe that I did.  I am very careful about these things with you since I know how persnickety you are about all things major and minor.


Looking back at what I posted, I've come to recognize that you understand what I said better than I first thought you did.

It *is* sometimes hard for us to understand you.  You often wrap what you say very carefully so that there is no possibility of comeback on you.  I wish I had your skill.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 02:50:30 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,726


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #116 on: February 01, 2012, 02:50:27 AM »

The title of this thread is interesting, to say the least  Wink.

If one looks up the word "lie" in a dictionary or thesaurus, one of the synonyms listed is....."misrepresentation".

I wonder what, precisely, the mods had in mind when naming this?
Exactly what you think I had in mind. It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread so it doesn't derail the thread from which I split this one.

Hmmmm.... I think it is very odd to have a thread focused on discussing whether a forum member is lying, and even more so when the member is an Orthodox priest.

You had all better consider yourselves challenged to prove this contention, at least the forum members who agree with what Peter has explained.

1. Just what facets of the Roman Catholic faith does Father Ambrose lie about....?

2.  Substantiate this with links to his messages.

Peter, I suppose there is the possibility that I am totally misunderstaning and you are raising the question of whether the Catholics are intentionally misrepresenting me?  But even so, it is still a very odd and somewhat intrusive thread and not a little destructive of the dignity of the prieshood, imo.


No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics. It's about time we had a thread where we could hash out these questions specifically and from both sides without derailing more threads.

In that case, hash it out, dear man.  Produce the evidence.  Link to the messages in threads which I have derailed by misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith.

Threads which you have derailed? That isn't what PtA said:
Quote
No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics.

I see that you are right.  Peter has said

1. that Roman Catholics have derailed many threads.

2. the cause of their derailing many threads has been my misrepresentation of their faith.

Has anybody so far proved this?  After all, this thread is now on page three.  

No, Fr. Ambrose, it appears that you're misrepresenting me, and I suspect that you're doing so intentionally.

I took care to study your post so that I would not misrepresent you and I do not believe that I did.  I am very careful about these things with you since I know how persnickety you are about all things major and minor.


Looking back at what I posted, I've come to recognize that you understand what I said better than I first thought you did.

It is sometimes hard for us to understand you.  You often wrap what you say very carefully so that there is no possibility of comeback on you.  I wish I had your skill.
Grin
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #117 on: February 01, 2012, 04:32:00 AM »

Peter.....

Peter Everyone can See ,Even the Blind ,That
You Keep Hounding Fathers Posts, to Find Fault,
where there isn't Any...... police

Actually, stashko, in this case I'm not finding fault with Fr. Ambrose. I didn't start this thread to state any suspicion I might have that Fr. Ambrose intentionally misrepresents Roman Catholic doctrine. I just note that he gets accused of this a lot, enough so that threads get derailed by these accusations. I'm finally giving him a chance to defend himself against these charges without threads getting derailed in the process.

And to you Catholic posters reading this thread, this is your chance to finally make your case against Fr. Ambrose, to "put up or shut up", as the saying goes. What evidence can you provide that Fr. Ambrose really does make a practice of intentionally misrepresenting your faith? Just repeating that charge against him means nothing if you can't prove it--besides that, repetition of your mantra is an intellectually lazy way to dodge your responsibility to offer a cogent defense of your faith. So I finally say to you: Prove your case against Fr. Ambrose by telling us what you really believe, or stop slandering him with the accusation that he intentionally misrepresents (IOW, lies about) your faith. The same goes for your accusations against Isa Almisry.

Peter, is your advice really within the parameters of this list and permissible behaviour for forum members?   Username1 does not agree with you that there should be open slather on me.  Here are Username1’s instructions on this thread

Quote
Actually, starting a whole topic with an ad hominem against another member is just way beyond breaking the rules of oc.net. You are on post moderation for 40 days and I am locking this topic. There are other ways to start a topic. An example would be to start a discussion on a particular issue and not doing so attacking another poster, an Eastern Orthodox priest to boot on an Eastern Orthodox forum, would be a good start. -username! Orthodox-Catholic Moderator

I believe this is very a sensible decision and good advice by the Section moderator:

If this thread is permitted to continue, how will it be concluded?  Will a panel of my peers be convened, the priests who are moderators?  Will they judge the accusations against me and render a decision?  Or will the accusations simply be allowed to lie here, on a public forum, without a resolution?  The integrity of a priest is a vital necessity in his work.  If this thread has accusations that i am a liar (and you have already introduced that shocking possibility) and this is not resolved, it is more serious for me and my work in the Church than it would be for people in other occupations.

Overall I have to say that I find it unusual that you, a moderator, opened a thread which you surely must have realised has the potential to turn into a hate fest against a priest.  Mary's depiction of Fr Hardon as a "simple little priest"  will pale.


Logged
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #118 on: February 01, 2012, 04:41:37 AM »

It seems that it is far too personal, and it should never be that way.

I don't always agree with what Fr. Ambrose says, but I would not attack him personally, only discuss what has been said. Plus this thread is completely against biblical and Christian principles. "Treat each other with respect and love" Remember.

No doubt that this will turn out nasty, better to have it locked again!  police

Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #119 on: February 01, 2012, 04:44:36 AM »

Quote
It seems to me that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying

Such claims are worthless unless they are shown rather than simply told.

A thread like this is shameful without proof. I think the proof should be shown or close the thread -lacking clear proof it is unwarranted, unethical slander.

Assertions of this kind seem to me to literally ***saturate*** this forum (Catholic/Orthodox discussion, against Orthodox clergy in particular -not just Fr. Ambrose) often with a clear lack of convincing evidence. It is my view that one Roman Catholic poster in particular who shall remain unnamed here is one of the worst offenders of this sort I have ever seen anywhere at anytime on any internet forum, and that is saying quite a lot.

In another forum which I administrate such constant slander and belittling of alleged (seldom proven) "ignorance," purposeful distortion" etc. of any member -especially primarily by one "prosecuting" member- without clear and near irrefutable demonstration is not allowed and amounts to a bannable offense. We don't care if the accused is an atheist or a rightist or a leftist or a Christian or etc.; they have a right not to have to face personal slander -all the more a constant stream of it- unless it is demonstrated beyond all possible reasonable doubt. Such below the belt and/or careless nonsense would be unethical and unacceptable in any good newspaper or courtroom without firm proof and so it should be in a professionally adjudicated debate forum.




Xariskai,

Thank you for what you have written.

I hope that the person who created this thread, PetertheAleut, for the purpose of discussing whether I am guilty of "Intentional misrepresentation" and lying will respond to you.
Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,625



« Reply #120 on: February 01, 2012, 04:55:16 AM »

Let's cool down for a second here. I'm afraid that this thread is becoming a source of contention for no good reason.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #121 on: February 01, 2012, 05:10:43 AM »

Let's cool down for a second here. I'm afraid that this thread is becoming a source of contention for no good reason.

I myself am not "hot" - but I am the defendant in this courtroom and need to defend myself.

People such as Witega, Xariskai, Stashko, LBK, and JR are not writing in heat.

As for this thread being a source of contention, that is inevitable.  It was created by PetertheAleut to receive and judge accusations that I am guilty of intentional misrepresentation and constantly lying.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #122 on: February 01, 2012, 05:27:09 AM »

It saddens me that anyone in either of our Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) would even want to find ways to paint negative pictures of the other.  To what end, really?

That seems to be reading quite a bit into Fr. Ambrose's motivations. What I see is Fr. Ambrose talking about his *actual* experience as an RC decades ago. And he tends to get a bit impassioned when people blow off the actuality of his experience because it doesn't fit their theoretical models--a not incomprehensible reaction.


Witega, thank you for speaking in support of my honesty.

I am glad that PetertheAleut made your post the OP for this thread.  You are the flagship of my innocence.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,157



« Reply #123 on: February 01, 2012, 09:22:36 AM »

Peter.....

Peter Everyone can See ,Even the Blind ,That
You Keep Hounding Fathers Posts, to Find Fault,
where there isn't Any...... police

Actually, stashko, in this case I'm not finding fault with Fr. Ambrose. I didn't start this thread to state any suspicion I might have that Fr. Ambrose intentionally misrepresents Roman Catholic doctrine. I just note that he gets accused of this a lot, enough so that threads get derailed by these accusations. I'm finally giving him a chance to defend himself against these charges without threads getting derailed in the process.

And to you Catholic posters reading this thread, this is your chance to finally make your case against Fr. Ambrose, to "put up or shut up", as the saying goes. What evidence can you provide that Fr. Ambrose really does make a practice of intentionally misrepresenting your faith? Just repeating that charge against him means nothing if you can't prove it--besides that, repetition of your mantra is an intellectually lazy way to dodge your responsibility to offer a cogent defense of your faith. So I finally say to you: Prove your case against Fr. Ambrose by telling us what you really believe, or stop slandering him with the accusation that he intentionally misrepresents (IOW, lies about) your faith. The same goes for your accusations against Isa Almisry.

Peter, is your advice really within the parameters of this list and permissible behaviour for forum members?   Username1 does not agree with you that there should be open slather on me.  Here are Username1’s instructions on this thread

Quote
Actually, starting a whole topic with an ad hominem against another member is just way beyond breaking the rules of oc.net. You are on post moderation for 40 days and I am locking this topic. There are other ways to start a topic. An example would be to start a discussion on a particular issue and not doing so attacking another poster, an Eastern Orthodox priest to boot on an Eastern Orthodox forum, would be a good start. -username! Orthodox-Catholic Moderator

I believe this is very a sensible decision and good advice by the Section moderator:

If this thread is permitted to continue, how will it be concluded?  Will a panel of my peers be convened, the priests who are moderators?  Will they judge the accusations against me and render a decision?  Or will the accusations simply be allowed to lie here, on a public forum, without a resolution?  The integrity of a priest is a vital necessity in his work.  If this thread has accusations that i am a liar (and you have already introduced that shocking possibility) and this is not resolved, it is more serious for me and my work in the Church than it would be for people in other occupations.

Overall I have to say that I find it unusual that you, a moderator, opened a thread which you surely must have realised has the potential to turn into a hate fest against a priest.  Mary's depiction of Fr Hardon as a "simple little priest"  will pale.

Hi Fr. Ambrose. Just to add to my 2 cents, I would say that those accusations were on a public forum even before this thread existed. This thread gives people to challenge those accusations, as for example xariskai did:

Such claims are worthless unless they are shown rather than simply told.

A thread like this is shameful without proof. I think the proof should be shown or close the thread -lacking clear proof it is unwarranted, unethical slander.

Assertions of this kind seem to me to literally ***saturate*** this forum (Catholic/Orthodox discussion, against Orthodox clergy in particular -not just Fr. Ambrose) often with a clear lack of convincing evidence. It is my view that one Roman Catholic poster in particular who shall remain unnamed here is one of the worst offenders of this sort I have ever seen anywhere at anytime on any internet forum, and that is saying quite a lot.

In another forum which I administrate such constant slander and belittling of alleged (seldom proven) "ignorance," purposeful distortion" etc. of any member -especially primarily by one "prosecuting" member- without clear and near irrefutable demonstration is not allowed and amounts to a bannable offense. We don't care if the accused is an atheist or a rightist or a leftist or a Christian or etc.; they have a right not to have to face personal slander -all the more a constant stream of it- unless it is demonstrated beyond all possible reasonable doubt. Such below the belt and/or careless nonsense would be unethical and unacceptable in any good newspaper or courtroom without firm proof and so it should be in a professionally adjudicated debate forum.



Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,726


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #124 on: February 01, 2012, 10:34:51 AM »

Peter.....

Peter Everyone can See ,Even the Blind ,That
You Keep Hounding Fathers Posts, to Find Fault,
where there isn't Any...... police

Actually, stashko, in this case I'm not finding fault with Fr. Ambrose. I didn't start this thread to state any suspicion I might have that Fr. Ambrose intentionally misrepresents Roman Catholic doctrine. I just note that he gets accused of this a lot, enough so that threads get derailed by these accusations. I'm finally giving him a chance to defend himself against these charges without threads getting derailed in the process.

And to you Catholic posters reading this thread, this is your chance to finally make your case against Fr. Ambrose, to "put up or shut up", as the saying goes. What evidence can you provide that Fr. Ambrose really does make a practice of intentionally misrepresenting your faith? Just repeating that charge against him means nothing if you can't prove it--besides that, repetition of your mantra is an intellectually lazy way to dodge your responsibility to offer a cogent defense of your faith. So I finally say to you: Prove your case against Fr. Ambrose by telling us what you really believe, or stop slandering him with the accusation that he intentionally misrepresents (IOW, lies about) your faith. The same goes for your accusations against Isa Almisry.

Peter, is your advice really within the parameters of this list and permissible behaviour for forum members?   Username1 does not agree with you that there should be open slather on me.  Here are Username1’s instructions on this thread

Quote
Actually, starting a whole topic with an ad hominem against another member is just way beyond breaking the rules of oc.net. You are on post moderation for 40 days and I am locking this topic. There are other ways to start a topic. An example would be to start a discussion on a particular issue and not doing so attacking another poster, an Eastern Orthodox priest to boot on an Eastern Orthodox forum, would be a good start. -username! Orthodox-Catholic Moderator

I believe this is very a sensible decision and good advice by the Section moderator:

If this thread is permitted to continue, how will it be concluded?  Will a panel of my peers be convened, the priests who are moderators?  Will they judge the accusations against me and render a decision?  Or will the accusations simply be allowed to lie here, on a public forum, without a resolution?  The integrity of a priest is a vital necessity in his work.  If this thread has accusations that i am a liar (and you have already introduced that shocking possibility) and this is not resolved, it is more serious for me and my work in the Church than it would be for people in other occupations.

Overall I have to say that I find it unusual that you, a moderator, opened a thread which you surely must have realised has the potential to turn into a hate fest against a priest.  Mary's depiction of Fr Hardon as a "simple little priest"  will pale.
username! and I are in perfect agreement on this subject, and I find your apparent attempt to make it look as if there's a rift between us an unethical manipulation of this discussion. If you think we may be working against each other in our official roles as moderators, then the proper way to address this is via the "Report to Moderator" function, not through public discussion such as this.

That said, people have always been permitted to criticize the behavior of others on the public forum, to include making accusations against you, that you intentionally misrepresent them, even if these accusations are unfounded. However, you are the only one who ever makes it appear as if these charges against your behavior are actually attacks against your person. There is a difference. When people intimate that you may be misrepresenting them, that you may be lying, they are merely criticizing your behavior; they are not calling you a liar. If anyone were truly to call you a liar, then that would be a personal attack and would incur disciplinary action against said poster. No one's calling you a liar--if anyone does, he will be punished for ad hominem--so please stop trying to blow this thread up into the hate fest you fear it will become.

Additionally, as Peter J said above, the accusations have already been made of your behavior. I'm not asking anyone to post new accusations. I'm just asking them to substantiate the accusations they've already made. And if they cannot prove their accusations true, what do you have to fear? You will be exonerated. I'm putting our Catholic posters in the hot seat here, not you.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 10:54:30 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,269



WWW
« Reply #125 on: February 01, 2012, 10:51:48 AM »


Folks, I think you've completely misunderstood the purpose of this thread.  It's not meant to be spiteful or hurtful to anyone.

It has branched off a previous thread that was getting seriously derailed and off topic, due to people arguing points with Fr. Ambrose.  Neither party was "wrong", however, the discussion had nothing to do with the OP of that thread.

This thread is where one should go, if in the course of discussing a matter revolving around the Opening Post of a thread, another subject comes up where people don't see eye to eye, and accuse each other of misrepresenting their beliefs.

Therefore, instead of completely derailing a thread, head over hear and rehash the particular disagreement and have at it.....leaving the original topic to evolve without bickering and misunderstanding....so, that if someone one day wishes to read about the original topic, they don't have to pour over pages of he said, she said....and can focus only on the topic of interest.

Please, believe me that nobody here wishes anyone any harm.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #126 on: February 01, 2012, 02:11:59 PM »


Folks, I think you've completely misunderstood the purpose of this thread.  It's not meant to be spiteful or hurtful to anyone.

It has branched off a previous thread that was getting seriously derailed and off topic, due to people arguing points with Fr. Ambrose.  Neither party was "wrong", however, the discussion had nothing to do with the OP of that thread.

This thread is where one should go, if in the course of discussing a matter revolving around the Opening Post of a thread, another subject comes up where people don't see eye to eye, and accuse each other of misrepresenting their beliefs.

Therefore, instead of completely derailing a thread, head over hear and rehash the particular disagreement and have at it.....leaving the original topic to evolve without bickering and misunderstanding....so, that if someone one day wishes to read about the original topic, they don't have to pour over pages of he said, she said....and can focus only on the topic of interest.

Please, believe me that nobody here wishes anyone any harm.



I am glad that has been cleared up! I just didn't want it to turn in to a vigilante squad  Wink
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,431


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #127 on: February 01, 2012, 02:25:10 PM »

Quote
...people have always been permitted to criticize the behavior of others on the public forum, to include making accusations against you, that you intentionally misrepresent them, even if these accusations are unfounded.
Unsubstantiated allegations against persons are allowed here even if they are unfounded?

That is absolutely awful!

Such a policy almost begs for endless off-topic personal wrangling and diversion, and very unpleasant discussions of the sort which can make *all* participants look (or feel) bad whether they are right or wrong.

Many forums simply do not allow this kind of nonsense, e.g.

>Take on the idea, not the messenger. Avoid personal attacks, personal accusations, or personal insults, whether regarding personal knowledge, personal style, or any other personal attribute.

>Do not make slanderous or libelous posts. Knowingly making false claims about an individual, company, or organization is expressly prohibited.

>Members are allowed to attack positions, but not persons who are fellow members. Do not make another member's experience on this site miserable. If you have been contacted by staff about personal attacks or are upset when posting try to avoid using personal pronouns or mentioning other members by name; instead try phrases like "the above position is inaccurate because..." rather than something like "You ignorant bozo, you know nothing!"


« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 02:34:43 PM by xariskai » Logged

Silly Stars
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,175


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #128 on: February 01, 2012, 03:45:09 PM »

Can I write this/ask this without being accused of accusing Fr. Ambrose of lying?  Well, I guess we'll see....

In reply #55 above, Fr. Ambrose writes: "Now, as I think I pointed out in an earlier posts, there is an immense difference between Christians who fall into violence from time to time thereby sinfully vitiating the teaching of Christ and Christians such as Thomas Aquinas and some of the Popes who institutionalise violence by incorporating it into the theology of the Roman Catholic Church. The first type of Christians are sinners, the latter type are perverters of the Gospel"

In the following reply, #56, Wyatt writes: "Violence is incorporated into the theology of the Catholic Church? How so? I've never read anything in Scripture, the Catechism, the Bible, or any other Catholic text that condones killing even those considered by the Church to be schismatics, heretics, or apostates. If you mean that some Popes or some theologians personally believed that such actions were justified theologically, that is much different than violence being formally received into the theology of the Catholic Church. What it sounds like to me is another case of "when Eastern Orthodox Christians sin it is less grievous than when Roman Catholics sin.""

From my reading of the thread, Fr. Ambrose never really addressed Wyatt's comment other than to state how this or that Pope used violence as a means to an end.  He never referenced any Catholic theological sources or works, e.g. Holy Scripture, the Fathers of the Church, any Catechism, writings of the saints, Vatican documents, etc. wherein it could be said to be clear that "violence is incorporated into the theology of the Catholic Church" and thereby institutionalized.

Now...*is* what Fr. Ambrose wrote a misrepresentation?  *Or*, has he just failed to cite incontrovertible evidence of his assertion?  In any event, would you please, Fr., show us precisely where violence is incorporated into the theology of the Catholic Church in a way that it has become institutionalized?

I, as well as probably everyone else here, am well aware of violence perpetrated by sinful (and sometimes repentant) and very imperfect human beings that has accompanied the Church (Catholic *and* Orthodox) as it has waxed and waned throughout history.  I'm sure we can *all* find examples wherein members of the Catholic Church and members of the Orthodox Church committed violent acts.  This, however, is a far, far cry from violence being institutionalized in the theology of the Catholic or any other Church.


I'm posting this here because the replies referenced are on this thread.  If the mods want to move it, I certainly have no problem with that.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 03:54:41 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #129 on: February 01, 2012, 04:15:58 PM »

The title of this thread is interesting, to say the least  Wink.

If one looks up the word "lie" in a dictionary or thesaurus, one of the synonyms listed is....."misrepresentation".

I wonder what, precisely, the mods had in mind when naming this?
Exactly what you think I had in mind. It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread so it doesn't derail the thread from which I split this one.

Hmmmm.... I think it is very odd to have a thread focused on discussing whether a forum member is lying, and even more so when the member is an Orthodox priest.

You had all better consider yourselves challenged to prove this contention, at least the forum members who agree with what Peter has explained.

1. Just what facets of the Roman Catholic faith does Father Ambrose lie about....?

2.  Substantiate this with links to his messages.

Peter, I suppose there is the possibility that I am totally misunderstaning and you are raising the question of whether the Catholics are intentionally misrepresenting me?  But even so, it is still a very odd and somewhat intrusive thread and not a little destructive of the dignity of the prieshood, imo.


No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics. It's about time we had a thread where we could hash out these questions specifically and from both sides without derailing more threads.

In that case, hash it out, dear man.  Produce the evidence.  Link to the messages in threads which I have derailed by misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith.

Threads which you have derailed? That isn't what PtA said:
Quote
No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics.

I see that you are right.  Peter has said

1. that Roman Catholics have derailed many threads.

2. the cause of their derailing many threads has been my misrepresentation of their faith.

Has anybody so far proved this?  After all, this thread is now on page three. 

No, Fr. Ambrose, it appears that you're misrepresenting me, and I suspect that you're doing so intentionally.

The above words from PetertheAleut are an ominous example of the dangers and injustices we may expect his thread.

He accuses me:

1.  “it appears that you're misrepresenting me”

2.  “I suspect that you're doing so intentionally.”

Then a few messages later he is obliged to withdraw:

Looking back at what I posted, I've come to recognize that you understand what I said better than I first thought you did.

So we see that even the man who started this thread,in order that people may discuss my faults and a judgement brought upon me,is unable to judge me accurately. Now PetertherAleut is a long-time and very experienced moderator, he prides himself on his use of logic and discernment...... so if such a person gets it wrong, well.... do the rest of my accusers have even half his acumen?

Btw, I greatly appreciate, dear Peter, that you acted with integrity and admitted that your first message about me was not accurate.  Thank you!  But it is as I say a fine example of the injustice one may anticipate from this thread and others may not have your honesty in admitting they are wrong.

And a second btw, has it ever been allowed before on the forum that a kind of public tribunal is set up by a moderator inviting criticism of an Orthodox priest from forum members? 

Logged
primuspilus
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,520


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #130 on: February 01, 2012, 04:25:57 PM »

For the record, I think this thread is completely stupid. How about we not throw one member to the wolves for everyone to take a bite off of? It's disgraceful.

Why not make another thread stating, "Hey let us give reasons why <user> is a moron?" or "Is <user> a liar?"

On the course of threads, we will on occasion, decend to attacks. Such things happen. So do people be called out for saying things that are incorrect, or to defend a position.That is the nature of what we do here. However, to single out one user in this fasion is simply pathetic. I say the whole thread be deleted.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,726


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #131 on: February 01, 2012, 04:27:06 PM »

The title of this thread is interesting, to say the least  Wink.

If one looks up the word "lie" in a dictionary or thesaurus, one of the synonyms listed is....."misrepresentation".

I wonder what, precisely, the mods had in mind when naming this?
Exactly what you think I had in mind. It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread so it doesn't derail the thread from which I split this one.

Hmmmm.... I think it is very odd to have a thread focused on discussing whether a forum member is lying, and even more so when the member is an Orthodox priest.

You had all better consider yourselves challenged to prove this contention, at least the forum members who agree with what Peter has explained.

1. Just what facets of the Roman Catholic faith does Father Ambrose lie about....?

2.  Substantiate this with links to his messages.

Peter, I suppose there is the possibility that I am totally misunderstaning and you are raising the question of whether the Catholics are intentionally misrepresenting me?  But even so, it is still a very odd and somewhat intrusive thread and not a little destructive of the dignity of the prieshood, imo.


No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics. It's about time we had a thread where we could hash out these questions specifically and from both sides without derailing more threads.

In that case, hash it out, dear man.  Produce the evidence.  Link to the messages in threads which I have derailed by misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith.

Threads which you have derailed? That isn't what PtA said:
Quote
No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics.

I see that you are right.  Peter has said

1. that Roman Catholics have derailed many threads.

2. the cause of their derailing many threads has been my misrepresentation of their faith.

Has anybody so far proved this?  After all, this thread is now on page three. 

No, Fr. Ambrose, it appears that you're misrepresenting me, and I suspect that you're doing so intentionally.

The above words from PetertheAleut are an ominous example of the dangers and injustices we may expect his thread.

He accuses me:

1.  “it appears that you're misrepresenting me”

2.  “I suspect that you're doing so intentionally.”

Then a few messages later he is obliged to withdraw:

Looking back at what I posted, I've come to recognize that you understand what I said better than I first thought you did.

So we see that even the man who started this thread,in order that people may discuss my faults and a judgement brought upon me,is unable to judge me accurately. Now PetertherAleut is a long-time and very experienced moderator, he prides himself on his use of logic and discernment...... so if such a person gets it wrong, well.... do the rest of my accusers have even half his acumen?

Btw, I greatly appreciate, dear Peter, that you acted with integrity and admitted that your first message about me was not accurate.  Thank you!  But it is as I say a fine example of the injustice one may anticipate from this thread and others may not have your honesty in admitting they are wrong.

And a second btw, has it ever been allowed before on the forum that a kind of public tribunal is set up by a moderator inviting criticism of an Orthodox priest from forum members? 


In all honesty, Fr. Ambrose, I think you take yourself and this thread way too seriously.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,726


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #132 on: February 01, 2012, 04:28:14 PM »

For the record, I think this thread is completely stupid. How about we not throw one member to the wolves for everyone to take a bite off of? It's disgraceful.

Why not make another thread stating, "Hey let us give reasons why <user> is a moron?" or "Is <user> a liar?"

On the course of threads, we will on occasion, decend to attacks. Such things happen. So do people be called out for saying things that are incorrect, or to defend a position.That is the nature of what we do here. However, to single out one user in this fasion is simply pathetic. I say the whole thread be deleted.

PP
Refer back to Liza's comments, for she understands the purpose of this thread:


Folks, I think you've completely misunderstood the purpose of this thread.  It's not meant to be spiteful or hurtful to anyone.

It has branched off a previous thread that was getting seriously derailed and off topic, due to people arguing points with Fr. Ambrose.  Neither party was "wrong", however, the discussion had nothing to do with the OP of that thread.

This thread is where one should go, if in the course of discussing a matter revolving around the Opening Post of a thread, another subject comes up where people don't see eye to eye, and accuse each other of misrepresenting their beliefs.

Therefore, instead of completely derailing a thread, head over hear and rehash the particular disagreement and have at it.....leaving the original topic to evolve without bickering and misunderstanding....so, that if someone one day wishes to read about the original topic, they don't have to pour over pages of he said, she said....and can focus only on the topic of interest.

Please, believe me that nobody here wishes anyone any harm.


Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #133 on: February 01, 2012, 04:38:08 PM »

However, you are the only one who ever makes it appear as if these charges against your behaviour are actually attacks against your person. There is a difference.

There is not.    I am being accused here of dishonesty, of intentional misrepresentation and of lying (the last two your words.)

To separate my person from my behaviour is nonsense.    “Yes, we have a wonderful priest in our parish Fr Ambrose, but he is dishonest and he intentionally misrepresents facts and people and he is given to lying."

Or,  "We have a wonderful President, but he is dishonest and he intentionally misrepresents facts and people and he is given to lying.”

Quote
When people intimate that you may be misrepresenting them, that you may be lying, they are merely criticizing your behavior; they are not calling you a liar. If anyone were truly to call you a liar, then that would be a personal attack and would incur disciplinary action against said poster. No one's calling you a liar--if anyone does, he will be punished for ad hominem--so please stop trying to blow this thread up into the hate fest you fear it will become.

You have already said that I am seen as given to lying.  If that is not tantamount to calling me a liar then what is?  You may like to play verbal games, claiming that stating Father Ambrose consistently lies is not the same as calling him a liar.  I see it as a distinction without a difference.  I also see it as an attack on my person and my reputation and I rather shocked that it is taking place publically on this forum.

Quote
It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread......

Iow, you have made the focus of this thread the contention that I lie and consistently lie.

Quote
so please stop trying to blow this thread up into the hate fest you fear it will become.

I am not doing that.  You misjudge me, again - as you did in message 103.

Logged
primuspilus
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,520


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #134 on: February 01, 2012, 04:41:21 PM »

Quote
Folks, I think you've completely misunderstood the purpose of this thread.  It's not meant to be spiteful or hurtful to anyone.

It has branched off a previous thread that was getting seriously derailed and off topic, due to people arguing points with Fr. Ambrose.  Neither party was "wrong", however, the discussion had nothing to do with the OP of that thread.

This thread is where one should go, if in the course of discussing a matter revolving around the Opening Post of a thread, another subject comes up where people don't see eye to eye, and accuse each other of misrepresenting their beliefs.

Therefore, instead of completely derailing a thread, head over hear and rehash the particular disagreement and have at it.....leaving the original topic to evolve without bickering and misunderstanding....so, that if someone one day wishes to read about the original topic, they don't have to pour over pages of he said, she said....and can focus only on the topic of interest.

Please, believe me that nobody here wishes anyone any harm.
Sorry, to me thats like pulling someone's pants down in a crowd to make a joke, but not meaning to embarass said person. It is what it is.


I see where Liza said this is:
Quote
another subject comes up where people don't see eye to eye, and accuse each other of misrepresenting their beliefs
"each other" indeed.

I hate this PC crap. Intentional misrepresentation is called a lie where Im from. It stemed from Fr. Ambrose's "Intentional misrepresentation"  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 04:42:17 PM by primuspilus » Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.242 seconds with 73 queries.