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Author Topic: Intentional misrepresentation?  (Read 7269 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« Reply #135 on: February 01, 2012, 04:48:35 PM »

The title of this thread is interesting, to say the least  Wink.

If one looks up the word "lie" in a dictionary or thesaurus, one of the synonyms listed is....."misrepresentation".

I wonder what, precisely, the mods had in mind when naming this?
Exactly what you think I had in mind. It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread so it doesn't derail the thread from which I split this one.

Hmmmm.... I think it is very odd to have a thread focused on discussing whether a forum member is lying, and even more so when the member is an Orthodox priest.

You had all better consider yourselves challenged to prove this contention, at least the forum members who agree with what Peter has explained.

1. Just what facets of the Roman Catholic faith does Father Ambrose lie about....?

2.  Substantiate this with links to his messages.

Peter, I suppose there is the possibility that I am totally misunderstaning and you are raising the question of whether the Catholics are intentionally misrepresenting me?  But even so, it is still a very odd and somewhat intrusive thread and not a little destructive of the dignity of the prieshood, imo.


No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics. It's about time we had a thread where we could hash out these questions specifically and from both sides without derailing more threads.

In that case, hash it out, dear man.  Produce the evidence.  Link to the messages in threads which I have derailed by misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith.

Threads which you have derailed? That isn't what PtA said:
Quote
No, Fr. Ambrose, many threads have been derailed by Roman Catholic allegations that you're misrepresenting their faith in your anti-Catholic apologetics, and that certain Catholics actively misrepresent our Orthodox faith in their apologetics.

I see that you are right.  Peter has said

1. that Roman Catholics have derailed many threads.

2. the cause of their derailing many threads has been my misrepresentation of their faith.

Has anybody so far proved this?  After all, this thread is now on page three. 

No, Fr. Ambrose, it appears that you're misrepresenting me, and I suspect that you're doing so intentionally.

The above words from PetertheAleut are an ominous example of the dangers and injustices we may expect his thread.

He accuses me:

1.  “it appears that you're misrepresenting me”

2.  “I suspect that you're doing so intentionally.”

Then a few messages later he is obliged to withdraw:

Looking back at what I posted, I've come to recognize that you understand what I said better than I first thought you did.

So we see that even the man who started this thread,in order that people may discuss my faults and a judgement brought upon me,is unable to judge me accurately. Now PetertherAleut is a long-time and very experienced moderator, he prides himself on his use of logic and discernment...... so if such a person gets it wrong, well.... do the rest of my accusers have even half his acumen?

Btw, I greatly appreciate, dear Peter, that you acted with integrity and admitted that your first message about me was not accurate.  Thank you!  But it is as I say a fine example of the injustice one may anticipate from this thread and others may not have your honesty in admitting they are wrong.

And a second btw, has it ever been allowed before on the forum that a kind of public tribunal is set up by a moderator inviting criticism of an Orthodox priest from forum members? 

As the other Peter put it, Catholic posters are in the hot seat here, not Fr. Ambrose.

Nevertheless, if Fr. Ambrose doesn't see it that way, perhaps the purpose of this thread has already been defeated.

 Undecided
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« Reply #136 on: February 01, 2012, 04:50:49 PM »

Please, believe me that nobody here wishes anyone any harm.

Liza, you are wrong.  Wish it or not, already there is harm underway from this thread of PetertheAleut's.   I've had an e-mail from an American priest who runs a clergy list.  "We all thought that you were an OK guy but we hear that the staff on Orthodox Christianity Net view you as a liar.  What's up, Father?  Need any testimonials from your brothers?"

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It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread......

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« Reply #137 on: February 01, 2012, 04:52:26 PM »

Quote
As the other Peter put it, Catholic posters are in the hot seat here, not Fr. Ambrose.

Nevertheless, if Fr. Ambrose doesn't see it that way, perhaps the purpose of this thread has already been defeated.
I've followed this entire thread and I took it as an attack on Fr. Ambrose. Perhaps you're correct. I apologize if I am completely wrong about the thread, but that is simply how I took it.

PP
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« Reply #138 on: February 01, 2012, 04:54:57 PM »

Quote
Folks, I think you've completely misunderstood the purpose of this thread.  It's not meant to be spiteful or hurtful to anyone.

It has branched off a previous thread that was getting seriously derailed and off topic, due to people arguing points with Fr. Ambrose.  Neither party was "wrong", however, the discussion had nothing to do with the OP of that thread.

This thread is where one should go, if in the course of discussing a matter revolving around the Opening Post of a thread, another subject comes up where people don't see eye to eye, and accuse each other of misrepresenting their beliefs.

Therefore, instead of completely derailing a thread, head over hear and rehash the particular disagreement and have at it.....leaving the original topic to evolve without bickering and misunderstanding....so, that if someone one day wishes to read about the original topic, they don't have to pour over pages of he said, she said....and can focus only on the topic of interest.

Please, believe me that nobody here wishes anyone any harm.
Sorry, to me thats like pulling someone's pants down in a crowd to make a joke, but not meaning to embarass said person. It is what it is.


I see where Liza said this is:
Quote
another subject comes up where people don't see eye to eye, and accuse each other of misrepresenting their beliefs
"each other" indeed.

I hate this PC crap. Intentional misrepresentation is called a lie where Im from. It stemed from Fr. Ambrose's "Intentional misrepresentation"  Roll Eyes



Hold on, primuspilus.

I respect your desire to defend Fr. Ambrose, however, you are barking up the wrong tree.  You have no need to defend him against me, as I have never said a word against him.

Once again, open your eyes and you will realize this thread was branched off another one which was getting lost over all the bickering.  Neither I, nor PTA, has said that this thread is for attacking IrishHermit.  In fact, it is here so he can openly defend himself from accusations, while NOT derailing the previoius topic of the original thread.

This thread is NOT for open attack on IrishHermit, nor anyone else.  It is simply here so he can defend himself against others, from attacks that were already occurring against him.
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« Reply #139 on: February 01, 2012, 04:58:58 PM »

We have disdcussed, more than once, the theology of the Angelic Doctor, which not only advises but strongly recommends that religious dissidents be killed.  He even teaches that heretics who repent and return to Catholicism should still be given by the Church to be killed by the secular powers.

This is institutionlised murder taught as theology by Aquinas, the greastest Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church.  Because we have discuused this before I assumed Catholics here would be aware of it.

Can I write this/ask this without being accused of accusing Fr. Ambrose of lying?  Well, I guess we'll see....

In reply #55 above, Fr. Ambrose writes: "Now, as I think I pointed out in an earlier posts, there is an immense difference between Christians who fall into violence from time to time thereby sinfully vitiating the teaching of Christ and Christians such as Thomas Aquinas and some of the Popes who institutionalise violence by incorporating it into the theology of the Roman Catholic Church. The first type of Christians are sinners, the latter type are perverters of the Gospel"

In the following reply, #56, Wyatt writes: "Violence is incorporated into the theology of the Catholic Church? How so? I've never read anything in Scripture, the Catechism, the Bible, or any other Catholic text that condones killing even those considered by the Church to be schismatics, heretics, or apostates. If you mean that some Popes or some theologians personally believed that such actions were justified theologically, that is much different than violence being formally received into the theology of the Catholic Church. What it sounds like to me is another case of "when Eastern Orthodox Christians sin it is less grievous than when Roman Catholics sin.""

From my reading of the thread, Fr. Ambrose never really addressed Wyatt's comment other than to state how this or that Pope used violence as a means to an end.  He never referenced any Catholic theological sources or works, e.g. Holy Scripture, the Fathers of the Church, any Catechism, writings of the saints, Vatican documents, etc. wherein it could be said to be clear that "violence is incorporated into the theology of the Catholic Church" and thereby institutionalized.

Now...*is* what Fr. Ambrose wrote a misrepresentation?  *Or*, has he just failed to cite incontrovertible evidence of his assertion?  In any event, would you please, Fr., show us precisely where violence is incorporated into the theology of the Catholic Church in a way that it has become institutionalized?

I, as well as probably everyone else here, am well aware of violence perpetrated by sinful (and sometimes repentant) and very imperfect human beings that has accompanied the Church (Catholic *and* Orthodox) as it has waxed and waned throughout history.  I'm sure we can *all* find examples wherein members of the Catholic Church and members of the Orthodox Church committed violent acts.  This, however, is a far, far cry from violence being institutionalized in the theology of the Catholic or any other Church.


I'm posting this here because the replies referenced are on this thread.  If the mods want to move it, I certainly have no problem with that.

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« Reply #140 on: February 01, 2012, 05:02:25 PM »

My sense is that the threads get heated when the following happens:

- Poster X says something about Roman Catholicism.

- Fr. Ambrose posts a source or states something from a RC source that contradicts Poster X’s statement.

- Poster X reinterprets Fr. Ambrose’s source either by asserting that the source is invalid or that it means something other than what Fr. Ambrose thinks that it means.

- Fr. Ambrose assures Poster X that what he posted means exactly what it says, and then he gets annoyed that his evidence is being incorrectly dismissed or falsely reinterpreted.

- Fr. Ambrose challenges Poster X to prove his/her point with valid sources.

- Poster X suddenly can’t remember/access source, or provides a source that is too long to read and claims he/she does not have the time to identify the ‘money quote.’

- Fr. Ambrose further pushes Poster X.

- Other posters object to Fr. Ambrose’s pushing.  Meanwhile, Poster X begins to complain that the attacks are ad hominem.

- Poster X then claims Fr. Ambrose is purposefully twisting RC doctrine because he refuses to believe Poster X’s position.

- Fr. Ambrose pushes further, and Poster X eventually admits that the other sources are valid, but that RC doctrine it still not as Fr. Ambrose’s sources say, but rather he is misreading them.



Well, that's how it appears to me.
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« Reply #141 on: February 01, 2012, 05:08:39 PM »

Quote
Hold on, primuspilus.

I respect your desire to defend Fr. Ambrose, however, you are barking up the wrong tree.  You have no need to defend him against me, as I have never said a word against him.

Once again, open your eyes and you will realize this thread was branched off another one which was getting lost over all the bickering.  Neither I, nor PTA, has said that this thread is for attacking IrishHermit.  In fact, it is here so he can openly defend himself from accusations, while NOT derailing the previoius topic of the original thread.

This thread is NOT for open attack on IrishHermit, nor anyone else.  It is simply here so he can defend himself against others, from attacks that were already occurring against him
My apologies if I read too far into it. It was not my intent.

My sense is that the threads get heated when the following happens:

- Poster X says something about Roman Catholicism.

- Fr. Ambrose posts a source or states something from a RC source that contradicts Poster X’s statement.

- Poster X reinterprets Fr. Ambrose’s source either by asserting that the source is invalid or that it means something other than what Fr. Ambrose thinks that it means.

- Fr. Ambrose assures Poster X that what he posted means exactly what it says, and then he gets annoyed that his evidence is being incorrectly dismissed or falsely reinterpreted.

- Fr. Ambrose challenges Poster X to prove his/her point with valid sources.

- Poster X suddenly can’t remember/access source, or provides a source that is too long to read and claims he/she does not have the time to identify the ‘money quote.’

- Fr. Ambrose further pushes Poster X.

- Other posters object to Fr. Ambrose’s pushing.  Meanwhile, Poster X begins to complain that the attacks are ad hominem.

- Poster X then claims Fr. Ambrose is purposefully twisting RC doctrine because he refuses to believe Poster X’s position.

- Fr. Ambrose pushes further, and Poster X eventually admits that the other sources are valid, but that RC doctrine it still not as Fr. Ambrose’s sources say, but rather he is misreading them.



Well, that's how it appears to me.

See, thats what I thought.

PP
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« Reply #142 on: February 01, 2012, 05:09:04 PM »

In all honesty, Fr. Ambrose, I think you take yourself and this thread way too seriously.

Yes, I value my reputation.

This thread is already starting to become known in Orthodox circles
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« Reply #143 on: February 01, 2012, 05:11:08 PM »

I see that you are right.  Peter has said

1. that Roman Catholics have derailed many threads.

2. the cause of their derailing many threads has been my misrepresentation of their faith.

Has anybody so far proved this?  After all, this thread is now on page three.   

You've got #1 right: Many RCs derail threads.  You've got #2 wrong: PtA said that the reason for derailing is that they are accusing you of misrepresenting; he did not say that you actually have been misrepresenting their faith.

Quite frankly, it is a good thing that this thread exists.  Since, IMO, you don't misrepresent the RC faith, this thread will serve two purposes:
1. It will eventually display to RC's (and everyone else) that they cannot continue to accuse you of misrepresenting Roman Catholicism, and
2. It will keep threads from being derailed (i.e. forcing them to address the actual points you and others bring forth) by serving as a location for the (as yet unfounded) accusations against you to be moved to.

Since you've posted nothing to smear your good name, there is no ammunition for harm, and since their accusations against you are baseless, there is plenty of ammunition for good.


Liza, you are wrong.  Wish it or not, already there is harm underway from this thread of PetertheAleut's.   I've had an e-mail from an American priest who runs a clergy list.  "We all thought that you were an OK guy but we hear that the staff on Orthodox Christianity Net view you as a liar.  What's up, Father?  Need any testimonials from your brothers?" 

The thread is not PeterTheAleut's - it belongs to the forum community.

"we hear that the staff on Orthodox Christianity Net view you as a liar" - Not true.  Someone's been lying to them (or they don't understand tone, grammar, and syntax well).  The thread is an opportunity for your opponents to stop insinuating and start producing evidence - an opportunity which they will fail in, and in which you will be vindicated.
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« Reply #144 on: February 01, 2012, 05:11:53 PM »

Please, believe me that nobody here wishes anyone any harm.

Liza, you are wrong.  Wish it or not, already there is harm underway from this thread of PetertheAleut's.   I've had an e-mail from an American priest who runs a clergy list.  "We all thought that you were an OK guy but we hear that the staff on Orthodox Christianity Net view you as a liar.  What's up, Father?  Need any testimonials from your brothers?"

Quote
It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread......



Father, I am truly sorry to hear this.  

As a "staff" member myself, I assure you that everyone is viewed equally and with respect.  

It is possible that some individuals will not always agree with you, nor you with them, however, that is unfortunately the nature of a discussion forum.  This is a democracy and everyone has a voice, and will be heard.

This thread isn't even a week old, yet it seems to have traveled the world and back.  I am saddened to hear that an American priest would judge you on heresay of a week's old thread on some Internet Forum.

Father, if you feel that you are being wronged by an individual or post, please utilize the "report to moderator" option in the lower right hand corner, and I promise you that your report will be given equal time and treatment, and will be handled just like every other report.  If you don't report an issue, it will only fester and rot.  

I know I wish you no harm, nor anyone else.  

Folks, let's try to put our animosities behind us and move forward with an open mind, so we can truly discuss the issues that interest us.  All this anger and suspicion is only barricading us, and hindering our growth.  We can't possibly learn from each other if we put up all these barriers.

I for one love this forum because I can and do learn a lot from each and everyone of you.


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« Reply #145 on: February 01, 2012, 05:20:44 PM »

As the other Peter put it, Catholic posters are in the hot seat here, not Fr. Ambrose.

Dear Peter,  here is the purpose of this thread:

It seems to me, the moderator who named this thread, that many of our Catholic posters consistently accuse Fr. Ambrose of intentionally misrepresenting your faith--IOW, of lying. I'm simply making that contention the focus of this thread......

This thread has been created by a moderator with the purpose of discussing whether Fr Ambrose is consistently lying.
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« Reply #146 on: February 01, 2012, 05:26:37 PM »

...but, Father, it was created to thwart the RC's and their accusations against you, not to accuse you.

It was meant to have them try to explain in this post why they stated you were misrepresenting the RC Faith.

The impetus here was on them to do some explaining of their accusations.  

If anyone was getting "accused" here, it was the RC posters who were attacking your beliefs, Father.
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« Reply #147 on: February 01, 2012, 05:29:14 PM »

- Fr. Ambrose assures Poster X that what he posted means exactly what it says, and then he gets annoyed that his evidence is being incorrectly dismissed or falsely reinterpreted.


Father,  I am fairly old now and don't have emotions to waste, and certainly not on internet forums.   laugh
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« Reply #148 on: February 01, 2012, 05:31:55 PM »

I am a little shocked at the treatment of a Priest on this thread and that there would be an actual thread devoted to hashing out whether he is guilty of misrepresenting the faith of another group. Not only misrepresenting it, but doing so intentionally. "Grilling" a priest by starting a thread on whether he is intentionally deceiving is calling into question his priestly vocation, which is quite wrong. Fr. Ambrose should not have to be called into question like this and I hope no harm will come upon his name.
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« Reply #149 on: February 01, 2012, 05:32:17 PM »

...but, Father, it was created to thwart the RC's and their accusations against you, not to accuse you.

It was meant to have them try to explain in this post why they stated you were misrepresenting the RC Faith.

The impetus here was on them to do some explaining of their accusations.  

If anyone was getting "accused" here, it was the RC posters who were attacking your beliefs, Father.
I believe you, and I think the intention was right, but in execution, really turned wrong. Lets just all say "I apologize, nobody is a liar" and lock this thing. So we can go back to attacking everyone  laugh

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« Reply #150 on: February 01, 2012, 05:37:17 PM »

Quite frankly, it is a good thing that this thread exists.  Since, IMO, you don't misrepresent the RC faith, this thread will serve two purposes:

I have been scandalised by Mary's attempts to attack Orthodoxy on OC.net, with allegations that we allow abortion, sexual liberalism, hypocrisy about the Immaculate Conception (we always believed it, now we deny it) , etc.  As this aspect of her apologetics became apparent to me I realised that what she writes needs opposing.  It may be beneficial to open a parallel thread to this one, examining Mary's misrepresentations of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #151 on: February 01, 2012, 05:44:16 PM »

...but, Father, it was created to thwart the RC's and their accusations against you, not to accuse you.
.

Then let me say...  I have known myself for 65 years.  I am well acquainted with myself.  I am a monk and part of my rule is a daily examination of conscience.  I know I am not a liar.

Roman Catholics who call me a liar are liars.
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« Reply #152 on: February 01, 2012, 05:47:34 PM »


Agreed.   Wink

It's funny....but, all of a sudden I am not seeing any of the RC's posting anything against you, Father.

Perhaps, because they were called out, they now hesitate in their accusations.
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« Reply #153 on: February 01, 2012, 05:50:47 PM »

Don't be scandalized by Mary, Father.  It is pretty apparent from the sources provided in your discussions with her that she often can't even accurately represent her own church, which is why she routinely insults her own bishops and clergy when they don't suit her particular theological opinions.  She did this with the medieval bishops and indulgences, and she again did this with Fr. Harden.

Sadly, Mary appears to be ruining her own reputation in the eyes of many.  So far, I think you've handling it fairly well with slamming her too hard.

I can also vouch for the fact that, when Mary started posting here, you asked me to be charitable.  I tried, but she was not amenable to such even though I have no animosity to the RCC and have tried to express my admiration of them even in disagreement.

Too often, good manners are confused with unqualified agreement.


Quite frankly, it is a good thing that this thread exists.  Since, IMO, you don't misrepresent the RC faith, this thread will serve two purposes:

I have been scandalised by Mary's attempts to attack Orthodoxy on OC.net, with allegations that we allow abortion, sexual liberalism, hypocrisy about the Immaculate Conception (we always believed it, now we deny it) , etc.  As this aspect of her apologetics became apparent to me I realised that what she writes needs opposing.  It may be beneficial to open a parallel thread to this one, examining Mary's misrepresentations of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #154 on: February 01, 2012, 05:57:32 PM »

I still don't understand why you people give them the time of day.
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« Reply #155 on: February 01, 2012, 06:02:19 PM »

Stones can either dull a blade or sharpen it.  It all depends on the angle... and the stone.

I still don't understand why you people give them the time of day.
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« Reply #156 on: February 01, 2012, 06:09:45 PM »

I still don't understand why you people give them the time of day.

Because the "you people", like the "them" are Christians?
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« Reply #157 on: February 01, 2012, 06:11:17 PM »


This thread isn't even a week old, yet it seems to have traveled the world and back.  I am saddened to hear that an American priest would judge you on heresay of a week's old thread on some Internet Forum.

Liza, he is not judging me, quite the opposite in fact.  He goes on to ask me if I want the matter placed on the clergy list, and priests who want to vouch for my good character can write something for OC.net.  So if there's an influx of priests as new forum members, I take the credit.   laugh
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« Reply #158 on: February 01, 2012, 06:11:22 PM »

Stones can either dull a blade or sharpen it.  It all depends on the angle... and the stone.

I still don't understand why you people give them the time of day.
Yet the RC's that post on this board for a long time aren't really interested in joining the Orthodox Church. Shouldn't you wipe the dust off your shoes and focus on those that are interested in salvation in the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #159 on: February 01, 2012, 06:14:18 PM »

Quite frankly, it is a good thing that this thread exists.  Since, IMO, you don't misrepresent the RC faith, this thread will serve two purposes:

I have been scandalised by Mary's attempts to attack Orthodoxy on OC.net, with allegations that we allow abortion, sexual liberalism, hypocrisy about the Immaculate Conception (we always believed it, now we deny it) , etc.  As this aspect of her apologetics became apparent to me I realised that what she writes needs opposing.  It may be beneficial to open a parallel thread to this one, examining Mary's misrepresentations of Orthodoxy.
Actually, no such thread will be necessary. You do notice that the title of this thread is "Intentional misrepresentation?" It's not "Irish Hermit's Intentional Misrepresentations" or any such thing, so there's no need to make this thread solely about yourself. This thread is just as much about elijahmaria's alleged misrepresentations of our Orthodox faith as it is about her charges that some here misrepresent her faith.

Many here have also accused ialmisry of misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith. This thread is just as much an opportunity for our Catholic posters to state their case against him if they can. This thread never was just about you.
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« Reply #160 on: February 01, 2012, 06:18:23 PM »

Quite frankly, it is a good thing that this thread exists.  Since, IMO, you don't misrepresent the RC faith, this thread will serve two purposes:

I have been scandalised by Mary's attempts to attack Orthodoxy on OC.net, with allegations that we allow abortion, sexual liberalism, hypocrisy about the Immaculate Conception (we always believed it, now we deny it) , etc.  As this aspect of her apologetics became apparent to me I realised that what she writes needs opposing.  It may be beneficial to open a parallel thread to this one, examining Mary's misrepresentations of Orthodoxy.

I agree, except that I think the misrepresentations of Orthodoxy should be addressed in this thread.  It would aid the case that you do not misrepresent RCism if those who are your loudest detractors had their misrepresentations of Orthodoxy cast into the light and exposed as the shams they are.
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« Reply #161 on: February 01, 2012, 06:18:35 PM »

Stones can either dull a blade or sharpen it.  It all depends on the angle... and the stone.

I still don't understand why you people give them the time of day.
Yet the RC's that post on this board for a long time aren't really interested in joining the Orthodox Church. Shouldn't you wipe the dust off your shoes and focus on those that are interested in salvation in the Orthodox Church?


You know, you've got a point.  However, this particular forum is for discussion between Orthodox and Catholics.  Many of us, both Catholic and Orthodox, hope for some kind of reunion in the future.  My guess is that it may never happen in this life.  My certainty is that it will never happen in this life without some kind of discussion between us.  Unfortunately, it tends to get a little heated at times  Wink.  Witness this thread.
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« Reply #162 on: February 01, 2012, 06:21:49 PM »

We have disdcussed, more than once, the theology of the Angelic Doctor, which not only advises but strongly recommends that religious dissidents be killed.  He even teaches that heretics who repent and return to Catholicism should still be given by the Church to be killed by the secular powers.

This is institutionlised murder taught as theology by Aquinas, the greastest Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church.  Because we have discuused this before I assumed Catholics here would be aware of it.
This is not an answer...neither to J Michael nor to my original question. You can cite individual theologians, Popes, and Bishops all you want, Father, but the fact remains: nowhere have you shown that the Catholic Church formally and officially embraces violence or murder to deal with heretics.
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« Reply #163 on: February 01, 2012, 06:22:42 PM »

I shall not bothering replying to the nasty posts which we anticipate....

Examples from this thread...

Papist: " If you believe that Fr. Ambrose is really reporting what he has really experienced... otherwise..."

In other words, call me a liar.

"Because he is consistently misrepresents Catholics and Catholic teaching."

I don't.  In the cases to which Papist is referring he is ignorant of the beliefs of his Church prior to circa 1965.

Elijahmaria:  "I fail to see the need for Father Ambrose's hysteria over mortal sin."

The lady is way over the top. It's her way of negating what I wrote.  Hysteria?!

Wyatt:  "So are all Catholics going to hell, or just our clergy?"

The question constitutes the attribution of a belief to me which I have never thought or written.   It's in the same realm as "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

J Michael (quoted by Peter J):  "So does that mean that calling someone "as wily as a fox and slippery as a greased eel" isn't engaging on truly meaningful level?"

Stupid insults.

But I am b~o~r~e~d by this.  I cannot be bothered looking for more of these things.

To be honest with you, there's too much going on, both on this thread (far too many sub-topics and tangents for me to concentrate on) and in my life and work to devote the kind of time and energy needed to continue to engage here on a truly meaningful level--besides, you're as wily as a fox and slippery as a greased eel

Interesting. So does that mean that calling someone "as wily as a fox and slippery as a greased eel" isn't engaging on truly meaningful level?

I call upon J Michael, in the name of the truth, to substantiate his accusation against me.

That, it seems to me, is the sort of things that the mods are calling for too.
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« Reply #164 on: February 01, 2012, 06:23:25 PM »

Father George,  I want to express my gratitude for your irenic and positive approach  Thank you.

Nevertheless I still believe it is quite  wrong for a member, and in this case a moderator, to open a thread with the purpose of examining whether an Orthodox priest is a consistent liar.

Imagine the boot on the other foot and someone were to open a thread examining a moderator's integrity.  

Now that we are aware that such threads are allowed here, I actually hope that no other member will embarrass himself by opening one against another member.


I see that you are right.  Peter has said

1. that Roman Catholics have derailed many threads.

2. the cause of their derailing many threads has been my misrepresentation of their faith.

Has anybody so far proved this?  After all, this thread is now on page three.  

You've got #1 right: Many RCs derail threads.  You've got #2 wrong: PtA said that the reason for derailing is that they are accusing you of misrepresenting; he did not say that you actually have been misrepresenting their faith.

Quite frankly, it is a good thing that this thread exists.  Since, IMO, you don't misrepresent the RC faith, this thread will serve two purposes:
1. It will eventually display to RC's (and everyone else) that they cannot continue to accuse you of misrepresenting Roman Catholicism, and
2. It will keep threads from being derailed (i.e. forcing them to address the actual points you and others bring forth) by serving as a location for the (as yet unfounded) accusations against you to be moved to.

Since you've posted nothing to smear your good name, there is no ammunition for harm, and since their accusations against you are baseless, there is plenty of ammunition for good.


Liza, you are wrong.  Wish it or not, already there is harm underway from this thread of PetertheAleut's.   I've had an e-mail from an American priest who runs a clergy list.  "We all thought that you were an OK guy but we hear that the staff on Orthodox Christianity Net view you as a liar.  What's up, Father?  Need any testimonials from your brothers?"  

The thread is not PeterTheAleut's - it belongs to the forum community.

"we hear that the staff on Orthodox Christianity Net view you as a liar" - Not true.  Someone's been lying to them (or they don't understand tone, grammar, and syntax well).  The thread is an opportunity for your opponents to stop insinuating and start producing evidence - an opportunity which they will fail in, and in which you will be vindicated.
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« Reply #165 on: February 01, 2012, 06:28:48 PM »

Quite frankly, it is a good thing that this thread exists.  Since, IMO, you don't misrepresent the RC faith, this thread will serve two purposes:

I have been scandalised by Mary's attempts to attack Orthodoxy on OC.net, with allegations that we allow abortion, sexual liberalism, hypocrisy about the Immaculate Conception (we always believed it, now we deny it) , etc.  As this aspect of her apologetics became apparent to me I realised that what she writes needs opposing.  It may be beneficial to open a parallel thread to this one, examining Mary's misrepresentations of Orthodoxy.
Actually, no such thread will be necessary. You do notice that the title of this thread is "Intentional misrepresentation?" It's not "Irish Hermit's Intentional Misrepresentations" or any such thing, so there's no need to make this thread solely about yourself. This thread is just as much about elijahmaria's alleged misrepresentations of our Orthodox faith as it is about her charges that some here misrepresent her faith.

Many here have also accused ialmisry of misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith. This thread is just as much an opportunity for our Catholic posters to state their case against him if they can. This thread never was just about you.

I find the whole premise and focus of this thread quite despicable.  See, there's an honest statement and no lie.  It is despicable whether forum members are examining my behaviour or Mary's or Almisry's.  From what I know of other forums the thread would never survive more than half an hour.
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« Reply #166 on: February 01, 2012, 06:33:07 PM »

We have disdcussed, more than once, the theology of the Angelic Doctor, which not only advises but strongly recommends that religious dissidents be killed.  He even teaches that heretics who repent and return to Catholicism should still be given by the Church to be killed by the secular powers.

This is institutionlised murder taught as theology by Aquinas, the greastest Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church.  Because we have discuused this before I assumed Catholics here would be aware of it.

Can I write this/ask this without being accused of accusing Fr. Ambrose of lying?  Well, I guess we'll see....

In reply #55 above, Fr. Ambrose writes: "Now, as I think I pointed out in an earlier posts, there is an immense difference between Christians who fall into violence from time to time thereby sinfully vitiating the teaching of Christ and Christians such as Thomas Aquinas and some of the Popes who institutionalise violence by incorporating it into the theology of the Roman Catholic Church. The first type of Christians are sinners, the latter type are perverters of the Gospel"

In the following reply, #56, Wyatt writes: "Violence is incorporated into the theology of the Catholic Church? How so? I've never read anything in Scripture, the Catechism, the Bible, or any other Catholic text that condones killing even those considered by the Church to be schismatics, heretics, or apostates. If you mean that some Popes or some theologians personally believed that such actions were justified theologically, that is much different than violence being formally received into the theology of the Catholic Church. What it sounds like to me is another case of "when Eastern Orthodox Christians sin it is less grievous than when Roman Catholics sin.""

From my reading of the thread, Fr. Ambrose never really addressed Wyatt's comment other than to state how this or that Pope used violence as a means to an end.  He never referenced any Catholic theological sources or works, e.g. Holy Scripture, the Fathers of the Church, any Catechism, writings of the saints, Vatican documents, etc. wherein it could be said to be clear that "violence is incorporated into the theology of the Catholic Church" and thereby institutionalized.

Now...*is* what Fr. Ambrose wrote a misrepresentation?  *Or*, has he just failed to cite incontrovertible evidence of his assertion?  In any event, would you please, Fr., show us precisely where violence is incorporated into the theology of the Catholic Church in a way that it has become institutionalized?

I, as well as probably everyone else here, am well aware of violence perpetrated by sinful (and sometimes repentant) and very imperfect human beings that has accompanied the Church (Catholic *and* Orthodox) as it has waxed and waned throughout history.  I'm sure we can *all* find examples wherein members of the Catholic Church and members of the Orthodox Church committed violent acts.  This, however, is a far, far cry from violence being institutionalized in the theology of the Catholic or any other Church.


I'm posting this here because the replies referenced are on this thread.  If the mods want to move it, I certainly have no problem with that.


Somehow, in all the kerfuffle, I missed this post.  I have not, yet, read much Aquinas.  I do not recall seeing any discussion about what he said about killing dissidents.  So, forgive me.  If you would care to cite a thread, post, or reference from him, I'd appreciate it.  I still don't see how him saying that, enshrines violence in the "theology of the Catholic Church".  I think it would take a little more than that to convince me, if you want to convince me.

Oh, and by the way, when I wrote that about you being as "wily as a fox...", it was never really meant as an "accusation".  Sorry you took it that way.  Some folks would actually consider that a compliment.  Obviously you did not.  I would withdraw it, if that is possible.

By the way, I'm all for closing this thread, and continuing the discussion about what is or is not in the theology of my Church elsewhere.
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« Reply #167 on: February 01, 2012, 06:33:36 PM »

Quite frankly, it is a good thing that this thread exists.  Since, IMO, you don't misrepresent the RC faith, this thread will serve two purposes:

I have been scandalised by Mary's attempts to attack Orthodoxy on OC.net, with allegations that we allow abortion, sexual liberalism, hypocrisy about the Immaculate Conception (we always believed it, now we deny it) , etc.  As this aspect of her apologetics became apparent to me I realised that what she writes needs opposing.  It may be beneficial to open a parallel thread to this one, examining Mary's misrepresentations of Orthodoxy.
Actually, no such thread will be necessary. You do notice that the title of this thread is "Intentional misrepresentation?" It's not "Irish Hermit's Intentional Misrepresentations" or any such thing, so there's no need to make this thread solely about yourself. This thread is just as much about elijahmaria's alleged misrepresentations of our Orthodox faith as it is about her charges that some here misrepresent her faith.

Many here have also accused ialmisry of misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith. This thread is just as much an opportunity for our Catholic posters to state their case against him if they can. This thread never was just about you.

I find the whole premise and focus of this thread quite despicable.  See, there's an honest statement and no lie.  It is despicable whether forum members are examining my behaviour or Mary's or Almisry's.  From what I know of other forums the thread would never survive more than half an hour.
Why is the premise of this thread despicable? If someone is misrepresenting something, be it intentional or otherwise, shouldn't such a thing be exposed? Don't you value truth?
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« Reply #168 on: February 01, 2012, 06:35:15 PM »

I am a little shocked at the treatment of a Priest on this thread and that there would be an actual thread devoted to hashing out whether he is guilty of misrepresenting the faith of another group. Not only misrepresenting it, but doing so intentionally.

I'd like to address this for a moment.

If I were to use my position as a priest in the Orthodox Church to teach false things about anyone or anything, should I not have my statements examined and disputed?  It would be of benefit to the flock and my soul if they were.  And if I am teaching false things, would it not be wise to determine if the false statements are out of ignorance or malice?  It would be of benefit to the flock and my soul.  Now, ideally correction should take place privately, and should only be made public if I am defiantly opposed to righting my wrongs.  However, in this case so many public accusations have been made that it would be best if the accusations were faced publicly, in order to enlist the aid of those who wish to defend the accused against malicious people.

And, really, this is a way of ending a popular form of distraction.  We cannot have dozens of threads questioning RC teaching become derailed with one singular question (Is so-and-so misrepresenting the faith?); so we now remove that lame excuse from those who have no ability to defend their faith tradition from rightful questions.

I cannot claim to have always been right in my posts on this forum; if I've stated something incorrectly, at the very least I'd like to be corrected so that I know the truth.
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« Reply #169 on: February 01, 2012, 06:36:02 PM »

We have disdcussed, more than once, the theology of the Angelic Doctor, which not only advises but strongly recommends that religious dissidents be killed.  He even teaches that heretics who repent and return to Catholicism should still be given by the Church to be killed by the secular powers.

This is institutionlised murder taught as theology by Aquinas, the greastest Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church.  Because we have discuused this before I assumed Catholics here would be aware of it.

Can I write this/ask this without being accused of accusing Fr. Ambrose of lying?  Well, I guess we'll see....

In reply #55 above, Fr. Ambrose writes: "Now, as I think I pointed out in an earlier posts, there is an immense difference between Christians who fall into violence from time to time thereby sinfully vitiating the teaching of Christ and Christians such as Thomas Aquinas and some of the Popes who institutionalise violence by incorporating it into the theology of the Roman Catholic Church. The first type of Christians are sinners, the latter type are perverters of the Gospel"

In the following reply, #56, Wyatt writes: "Violence is incorporated into the theology of the Catholic Church? How so? I've never read anything in Scripture, the Catechism, the Bible, or any other Catholic text that condones killing even those considered by the Church to be schismatics, heretics, or apostates. If you mean that some Popes or some theologians personally believed that such actions were justified theologically, that is much different than violence being formally received into the theology of the Catholic Church. What it sounds like to me is another case of "when Eastern Orthodox Christians sin it is less grievous than when Roman Catholics sin.""

From my reading of the thread, Fr. Ambrose never really addressed Wyatt's comment other than to state how this or that Pope used violence as a means to an end.  He never referenced any Catholic theological sources or works, e.g. Holy Scripture, the Fathers of the Church, any Catechism, writings of the saints, Vatican documents, etc. wherein it could be said to be clear that "violence is incorporated into the theology of the Catholic Church" and thereby institutionalized.

Now...*is* what Fr. Ambrose wrote a misrepresentation?  *Or*, has he just failed to cite incontrovertible evidence of his assertion?  In any event, would you please, Fr., show us precisely where violence is incorporated into the theology of the Catholic Church in a way that it has become institutionalized?

I, as well as probably everyone else here, am well aware of violence perpetrated by sinful (and sometimes repentant) and very imperfect human beings that has accompanied the Church (Catholic *and* Orthodox) as it has waxed and waned throughout history.  I'm sure we can *all* find examples wherein members of the Catholic Church and members of the Orthodox Church committed violent acts.  This, however, is a far, far cry from violence being institutionalized in the theology of the Catholic or any other Church.


I'm posting this here because the replies referenced are on this thread.  If the mods want to move it, I certainly have no problem with that.


Somehow, in all the kerfuffle, I missed this post.  I have not, yet, read much Aquinas.  I do not recall seeing any discussion about what he said about killing dissidents.  So, forgive me.  If you would care to cite a thread, post, or reference from him, I'd appreciate it.  I still don't see how him saying that, enshrines violence in the "theology of the Catholic Church".  I think it would take a little more than that to convince me, if you want to convince me.

Oh, and by the way, when I wrote that about you being as "wily as a fox...", it was never really meant as an "accusation".  Sorry you took it that way.  Some folks would actually consider that a compliment.  Obviously you did not.  I would withdraw it, if that is possible.

By the way, I'm all for closing this thread, and continuing the discussion about what is or is not in the theology of my Church elsewhere.
I think it would be much better to leave this thread open and hash out all the nonsense here rather than letting it spill over into all the other threads as it used to. Of course, for those who perpetuate misrepresentations, it would be better to go back to the old way where things can just be casually stated as if it were truth and then not get the opportunity to be refuted.
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« Reply #170 on: February 01, 2012, 06:41:03 PM »

I am a little shocked at the treatment of a Priest on this thread and that there would be an actual thread devoted to hashing out whether he is guilty of misrepresenting the faith of another group. Not only misrepresenting it, but doing so intentionally.

I'd like to address this for a moment.

If I were to use my position as a priest in the Orthodox Church to teach false things about anyone or anything, should I not have my statements examined and disputed?  It would be of benefit to the flock and my soul if they were.  And if I am teaching false things, would it not be wise to determine if the false statements are out of ignorance or malice?  It would be of benefit to the flock and my soul.  Now, ideally correction should take place privately, and should only be made public if I am defiantly opposed to righting my wrongs.  However, in this case so many public accusations have been made that it would be best if the accusations were faced publicly, in order to enlist the aid of those who wish to defend the accused against malicious people.

And, really, this is a way of ending a popular form of distraction.  We cannot have dozens of threads questioning RC teaching become derailed with one singular question (Is so-and-so misrepresenting the faith?); so we now remove that lame excuse from those who have no ability to defend their faith tradition from rightful questions.

I cannot claim to have always been right in my posts on this forum; if I've stated something incorrectly, at the very least I'd like to be corrected so that I know the truth.
Amen, Fr. George. Your post brings up a very good point, which is this: since when are Priests absolutely beyond reproach? Last time I checked, Deacons, Priests, and Bishops are still humans, and are thus capable of error. Calling into question the truthfulness of something stated by a Priest does not disrespect the office of the Priesthood. I find the fact that Fr. Ambrose hides behind his office of Priest within the Orthodox Church anytime someone questions whether each and every one of his words are Gospel to be despicable.
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« Reply #171 on: February 01, 2012, 06:48:54 PM »

We have discussed, more than once, the theology of the Angelic Doctor, which not only advises but strongly recommends that religious dissidents be killed.  He even teaches that heretics who repent and return to Catholicism should still be given by the Church to be killed by the secular powers.

This is institutionalised murder taught as theology by Aquinas, the greatest Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church.  Because we have discussed this before I assumed Catholics here would be aware of it.
This is not an answer...neither to J Michael nor to my original question. You can cite individual theologians, Popes, and Bishops all you want, Father, but the fact remains: nowhere have you shown that the Catholic Church formally and officially embraces violence or murder to deal with heretics.

Are you unaware of the centuries of the Inquisition, in Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Goa? the slaughter of 10s of thousands of Cathari in Southern France by an army under the command of a Cistercian abbot? of the death penalty in the Polish kingdom for the Orthodox refusing to join the Unia?

I know you can slide out of Thomistic theology by pointing out that he was a nobody Dominican and not a member of the Magisterium.   Conveniently overlooking that his theology has formed the basis of Roman Catholic theology for centuries and he is lauded without limit.

In the centuries that followed the Dominicans were able to torture and kill, or have killed, thousands of people.  They could do this with a clear conscience because the "Angelic" Doctor had already provided them with a theological basis for it.  Spiritual eugenics, the elimination of religious dissidents, had been established in Roman Catholic theology.  Has this teaching in the Summa been repudiated or is it in abeyance and simply awaiting new political circumstances?

Reference for the Cathari so you know there is no misrepresentation...

The testimony of William of Puylaurens:   "Arnaud [a holy Cistercian abbot who was the commander of the Catholic troops]  wrote to Pope Innocent III, "Today your Holiness, twenty thousand heretics were put to the sword, regardless of rank, age, or sex."  A sad boast to hear from a monk!  Thank you, Aquinas, for making it possible for a monk to espouse such a position without any disturbance to his conscience, the outworking of Aquinas' teaching in the Summa!   

"The Chronicle of William of Puylaurens: The Albigensian Crusade and Its Aftermath", p128, William, M. D. Sibly, Boydell Press, 2003, ISBN 0851159257

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism#Massacre
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« Reply #172 on: February 01, 2012, 06:53:55 PM »

To be honest with you, there's too much going on, both on this thread (far too many sub-topics and tangents for me to concentrate on) and in my life and work to devote the kind of time and energy needed to continue to engage here on a truly meaningful level--besides, you're as wily as a fox and slippery as a greased eel

Oh, and by the way, when I wrote that about you being as "wily as a fox...", it was never really meant as an "accusation".  Sorry you took it that way.  Some folks would actually consider that a compliment. 

Well this is an interesting plot twist.
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« Reply #173 on: February 01, 2012, 06:58:20 PM »


Somehow, in all the kerfuffle, I missed this post.  I have not, yet, read much Aquinas.  I do not recall seeing any discussion about what he said about killing dissidents.  So, forgive me.  If you would care to cite a thread, post, or reference from him, I'd appreciate it.  I still don't see how him saying that, enshrines violence in the "theology of the Catholic Church".  I think it would take a little more than that to convince me, if you want to convince me.

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« Reply #174 on: February 01, 2012, 07:04:22 PM »

We have discussed, more than once, the theology of the Angelic Doctor, which not only advises but strongly recommends that religious dissidents be killed.  He even teaches that heretics who repent and return to Catholicism should still be given by the Church to be killed by the secular powers.

This is institutionalised murder taught as theology by Aquinas, the greatest Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church.  Because we have discussed this before I assumed Catholics here would be aware of it.
This is not an answer...neither to J Michael nor to my original question. You can cite individual theologians, Popes, and Bishops all you want, Father, but the fact remains: nowhere have you shown that the Catholic Church formally and officially embraces violence or murder to deal with heretics.

Are you unaware of the centuries of the Inquisition, in Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Goa? the slaughter of 10s of thousands of Cathari in Southern France by an army under the command of a Cistercian abbot? of the death penalty in the Polish kingdom for the Orthodox refusing to join the Unia?

I know you can slide out of Thomistic theology by pointing out that he was a nobody Dominican and not a member of the Magisterium.   Conveniently overlooking that his theology has formed the basis of Roman Catholic theology for centuries and he is lauded without limit.

In the centuries that followed the Dominicans were able to torture and kill, or have killed, thousands of people.  They could do this with a clear conscience because the "Angelic" Doctor had already provided them with a theological basis for it.  Spiritual eugenics, the elimination of religious dissidents, had been established in Roman Catholic theology.  Has this teaching in the Summa been repudiated or is it in abeyance and simply awaiting new political circumstances?

Reference for the Cathari so you know there is no misrepresentation...

The testimony of William of Puylaurens:   "Arnaud [a holy Cistercian abbot who was the commander of the Catholic troops]  wrote to Pope Innocent III, "Today your Holiness, twenty thousand heretics were put to the sword, regardless of rank, age, or sex."  A sad boast to hear from a monk!  Thank you, Aquinas, for making it possible for a monk to espouse such a position without any disturbance to his conscience, the outworking of Aquinas' teaching in the Summa!   

"The Chronicle of William of Puylaurens: The Albigensian Crusade and Its Aftermath", p128, William, M. D. Sibly, Boydell Press, 2003, ISBN 0851159257

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism#Massacre

So no official teaching of the Catholic Church. Got it...thanks.
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« Reply #175 on: February 01, 2012, 07:06:42 PM »

Father,

Call a stop to this thread, as a priest and a man of honour, until the Catholics have presented a list of my lies.

Then you people may proceed to examine them. 

I may or may not participate since I view the whole premise of this thread as despicable.  It's inviting people to exercise their lower passions and watch with glee as heads roll at the guillotine - mine or Mary's or Almisry's.

I am a little shocked at the treatment of a Priest on this thread and that there would be an actual thread devoted to hashing out whether he is guilty of misrepresenting the faith of another group. Not only misrepresenting it, but doing so intentionally.

I'd like to address this for a moment.

If I were to use my position as a priest in the Orthodox Church to teach false things about anyone or anything, should I not have my statements examined and disputed?  It would be of benefit to the flock and my soul if they were.  And if I am teaching false things, would it not be wise to determine if the false statements are out of ignorance or malice?  It would be of benefit to the flock and my soul.  Now, ideally correction should take place privately, and should only be made public if I am defiantly opposed to righting my wrongs.  However, in this case so many public accusations have been made that it would be best if the accusations were faced publicly, in order to enlist the aid of those who wish to defend the accused against malicious people.

And, really, this is a way of ending a popular form of distraction.  We cannot have dozens of threads questioning RC teaching become derailed with one singular question (Is so-and-so misrepresenting the faith?); so we now remove that lame excuse from those who have no ability to defend their faith tradition from rightful questions.

I cannot claim to have always been right in my posts on this forum; if I've stated something incorrectly, at the very least I'd like to be corrected so that I know the truth.
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« Reply #176 on: February 01, 2012, 07:08:44 PM »

Quite frankly, it is a good thing that this thread exists.  Since, IMO, you don't misrepresent the RC faith, this thread will serve two purposes:

I have been scandalised by Mary's attempts to attack Orthodoxy on OC.net, with allegations that we allow abortion, sexual liberalism, hypocrisy about the Immaculate Conception (we always believed it, now we deny it) , etc.  As this aspect of her apologetics became apparent to me I realised that what she writes needs opposing.  It may be beneficial to open a parallel thread to this one, examining Mary's misrepresentations of Orthodoxy.
Actually, no such thread will be necessary. You do notice that the title of this thread is "Intentional misrepresentation?" It's not "Irish Hermit's Intentional Misrepresentations" or any such thing, so there's no need to make this thread solely about yourself. This thread is just as much about elijahmaria's alleged misrepresentations of our Orthodox faith as it is about her charges that some here misrepresent her faith.

Many here have also accused ialmisry of misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith. This thread is just as much an opportunity for our Catholic posters to state their case against him if they can. This thread never was just about you.

I find the whole premise and focus of this thread quite despicable.  See, there's an honest statement and no lie.  It is despicable whether forum members are examining my behaviour or Mary's or Almisry's.  From what I know of other forums the thread would never survive more than half an hour.
Why is the premise of this thread despicable? If someone is misrepresenting something, be it intentional or otherwise, shouldn't such a thing be exposed? Don't you value truth?

Let's create a Wyatt thread to expose your ignorance of both Orthodoxy and even of your own Catholicism.
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« Reply #177 on: February 01, 2012, 07:12:27 PM »

.
I think it would be much better to leave this thread open and hash out all the nonsense here rather than letting it spill over into all the other threads as it used to. Of course, for those who perpetuate misrepresentations, it would be better to go back to the old way where things can just be casually stated as if it were truth and then not get the opportunity to be refuted.

Is there any sense in your suggestion?  There will be new threads where Mary misrepresents Orthodoxy, and new threads where she and you and Papist  misrepresent your own Catholicism.
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« Reply #178 on: February 01, 2012, 07:18:03 PM »

Quite frankly, it is a good thing that this thread exists.  Since, IMO, you don't misrepresent the RC faith, this thread will serve two purposes:

I have been scandalised by Mary's attempts to attack Orthodoxy on OC.net, with allegations that we allow abortion, sexual liberalism, hypocrisy about the Immaculate Conception (we always believed it, now we deny it) , etc.  As this aspect of her apologetics became apparent to me I realised that what she writes needs opposing.  It may be beneficial to open a parallel thread to this one, examining Mary's misrepresentations of Orthodoxy.
Actually, no such thread will be necessary. You do notice that the title of this thread is "Intentional misrepresentation?" It's not "Irish Hermit's Intentional Misrepresentations" or any such thing, so there's no need to make this thread solely about yourself. This thread is just as much about elijahmaria's alleged misrepresentations of our Orthodox faith as it is about her charges that some here misrepresent her faith.

Many here have also accused ialmisry of misrepresenting the Roman Catholic faith. This thread is just as much an opportunity for our Catholic posters to state their case against him if they can. This thread never was just about you.

I find the whole premise and focus of this thread quite despicable.  See, there's an honest statement and no lie.  It is despicable whether forum members are examining my behaviour or Mary's or Almisry's.  From what I know of other forums the thread would never survive more than half an hour.
Why is the premise of this thread despicable? If someone is misrepresenting something, be it intentional or otherwise, shouldn't such a thing be exposed? Don't you value truth?

Let's create a Wyatt thread to expose your ignorance of both Orthodoxy and even of your own Catholicism.
Or we could discuss it here since that is what the purpose of this thread is.

.
I think it would be much better to leave this thread open and hash out all the nonsense here rather than letting it spill over into all the other threads as it used to. Of course, for those who perpetuate misrepresentations, it would be better to go back to the old way where things can just be casually stated as if it were truth and then not get the opportunity to be refuted.

Is there any sense in your suggestion?  There will be new threads where Mary misrepresents Orthodoxy, and new threads where she and you and Papist  misrepresent your own Catholicism.
You got any examples? This is the "intentional misrepresentation" thread after all.
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« Reply #179 on: February 01, 2012, 07:18:50 PM »

Amen, Fr. George. Your post brings up a very good point, which is this: since when are Priests absolutely beyond reproach? Last time I checked, Deacons, Priests, and Bishops are still humans, and are thus capable of error. Calling into question the truthfulness of something stated by a Priest does not disrespect the office of the Priesthood. I find the fact that Fr. Ambrose hides behind his office of Priest within the Orthodox Church anytime someone questions whether each and every one of his words are Gospel to be despicable.

Now, you see, there is a new and despicable lie about me right there.  I have usually been careful NOT to use my rank as a priest in debates.

In the case of this thread it is of course a different story since the entire thread is focused on discussing whether Fr Ambrose is a consistent liar and that has a direct impact on my character and integrity as a priest.
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