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Author Topic: Dr. Anthony Dragani on Final Theosis and Purgatory  (Read 4146 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 22, 2011, 10:52:47 PM »

Doesn't Anthony Dragani say that at her immaculate conception She achieved final theosis.  This would preclude any increase in grace since the achievement of theosis means the attainment of full divinisation and the possession of all uncreated divine grace.

Fr. Ambrose,

Dr. Anthony Dragani is a close friend.  He is Byzantine Catholic.  His PH.D. in Theology is from my own Alma Mater, Duquesne University of the Holy Ghost.  He is Assistant Professor of Religious Studies at Mt. Aloysius College.  Perhaps you have forgotten but Anthony has already clarified his use of the term final theosis to you at byzcath.  By this term he does not intend the attainment of full divinization, as he believes as you and I that theosis is eternal as God is infinite.

You can get his book here for $75 after 40% discount currently available:
http://www.gorgiaspress.com/bookshop/p-55593-dragani-anthony-adrian-fortescue-and-the-eastern-christian-churches.asp
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« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2011, 11:07:14 PM »

Doesn't Anthony Dragani say that at her immaculate conception She achieved final theosis.  This would preclude any increase in grace since the achievement of theosis means the attainment of full divinisation and the possession of all uncreated divine grace.

Fr. Ambrose,

Dr. Anthony Dragani is a close friend.  He is Byzantine Catholic.  His PH.D. in Theology is from my own Alma Mater, Duquesne University of the Holy Ghost.  Perhaps you have forgotten but Anthony has already clarified his use of the term final theosis to you at byzcath.  By this term he does not intend the attainment of full divinization, as he believes as you and I that theosis is eternal as God is infinite.

I well remember his cheerful confession that he was mistaken about Final Theosis.  But that was several years ago and although he assured us all that he would correct his error he is still teaching Final Theosis as Purgatory on his website.

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm#Purgatory

This erroneous teaching still remains on his site at EWTN also.

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=308617&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

That does not instil confidence really.  Why would he not proceed to do what he said and remove the error?  One is left to conclude that the teaching of Final Theosis is a doctrine of the Ruthenian Church.
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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2011, 11:44:57 PM »


I well remember his cheerful confession that he was mistaken about Final Theosis.  But that was several years ago and although he assured us all that he would correct his error he is still teaching Final Theosis as Purgatory on his website.

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm#Purgatory

This erroneous teaching still remains on his site at EWTN also.

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=308617&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

That does not instil confidence really.  Why would he not proceed to do what he said and remove the error?  One is left to conclude that the teaching of Final Theosis is a doctrine of the Ruthenian Church.

You remember poorly because he confessed no mistake, only not being detailed enough in a quick response.  If the admins/mods allow I will post a link to the thread so everyone can see what was said.

You also seemed to have missed the note on his website:

Quote
Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.

He is no longer involved with EWTN so I doubt they are willing to update their archives with a note

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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2011, 12:36:22 AM »


I well remember his cheerful confession that he was mistaken about Final Theosis.  But that was several years ago and although he assured us all that he would correct his error he is still teaching Final Theosis as Purgatory on his website.

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm#Purgatory

This erroneous teaching still remains on his site at EWTN also.

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=308617&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

That does not instil confidence really.  Why would he not proceed to do what he said and remove the error?  One is left to conclude that the teaching of Final Theosis is a doctrine of the Ruthenian Church.

You remember poorly because he confessed no mistake, only not being detailed enough in a quick response.  If the admins/mods allow I will post a link to the thread so everyone can see what was said.

You also seemed to have missed the note on his website:

Quote
Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.

He is no longer involved with EWTN so I doubt they are willing to update their archives with a note



So do you know why he would retain this erroneous theology on his website?  I can only believe that he does believe that Purgatory equals the Final Theosis (indeed he says this plainly on his site) and that this is the doctrine of the Ruthenian Church.  What else can we take from his statement? 

"Although we do not use the same word [Purgatory as Final Theosis], Eastern Orthodox/Catholics and Latin Catholics do essentially believe the same thing on this important point." 

This is, in my humble opinion, a degrading construct to load onto the Orthodox glorious teaching of theosis.



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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2011, 11:34:04 AM »

So do you know why he would retain this erroneous theology on his website?  I can only believe that he does believe that Purgatory equals the Final Theosis (indeed he says this plainly on his site) and that this is the doctrine of the Ruthenian Church.  What else can we take from his statement? 

"Although we do not use the same word [Purgatory as Final Theosis], Eastern Orthodox/Catholics and Latin Catholics do essentially believe the same thing on this important point." 

This is, in my humble opinion, a degrading construct to load onto the Orthodox glorious teaching of theosis.

Fr. Ambrose,

You must quit moving your target.  First you claim that Dr. Dragani is teaching Final Theosis means divinization is finite rather than infinite which is untrue and on which he had already corrected you on in Sept 2009.  That being proven you now want to state that he teaches Final Theosis equals Purgatory.  In Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning the Final Purification/Purgatory: 1) It is a transistory state for some of those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state.  If it is transitory it is finite.  If it is finite it cannot equal Final Theosis which is infinite.  What can be said is that Final Purification is the first stage of Final Theosis.  This is what Dr. Dragani means as is obvious from his note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.
 
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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2011, 11:34:47 AM »


I well remember his cheerful confession that he was mistaken about Final Theosis.  But that was several years ago and although he assured us all that he would correct his error he is still teaching Final Theosis as Purgatory on his website.

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm#Purgatory

This erroneous teaching still remains on his site at EWTN also.

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=308617&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

That does not instil confidence really.  Why would he not proceed to do what he said and remove the error?  One is left to conclude that the teaching of Final Theosis is a doctrine of the Ruthenian Church.

You remember poorly because he confessed no mistake, only not being detailed enough in a quick response.  If the admins/mods allow I will post a link to the thread so everyone can see what was said.

You also seemed to have missed the note on his website:

Quote
Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.

He is no longer involved with EWTN so I doubt they are willing to update their archives with a note



Deacon Lance,

In all kindness, I have to say that as a long time Roman rite Catholic, I find the idea of calling theosis "final" is passing strange.  I am closest in my formal spiritual formation to the saints of the reformed Carmel and the saints of the Dominican order.  I was formed, in the Roman rite, in the spiritual writings of both traditions and I have never encountered such an image as "final theosis."   It is, to me, an oxymoron.

I like to know from whom or where he takes that phrase and when it entered the lexical store house of the Church...if in fact it has.

If all he is doing is saying that once we are fully conformed to the will of God, we will never return to the ways of the world the flesh and the devil...I do understand that but I would say that the phrasing is quite unnecessarily misleading.

M.
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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2011, 11:43:24 AM »

Metropokitan Hilarion Alfeyev, St. Symeon the New Theologian, 257

According to Alfeyev, the Athanesian emphasis is on “the ontological difference between our adoption by God and deification on the one hand, and Christ’s sonship and divinity on the other: in the final deification ‘we become sons of God, but not in the same manner as He is, not by nature and reality, but by the grace of Him Who called us.’”


Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, St. Symeon the New Theologian, 264

“Elsewhere Symeon refers to the relics of the saints as proof of their final deification. Their bodies, since they were united with deified souls, are kept for many years without decomposition, being preserved for their final restoration and incorruption. In this argument Symeon follows John of Damscus, who also claimed that the saints became gods by adoption and cited as an example the incorruption of their relics.”

Vladimir Lossky, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, p. 244

“In the ceaseless struggle of the way of ascent, the way of cooperation with the divine will, created nature is more and more transformed by grace until the final deification which will be fully revealed in the Kingdom of God.”

Vladimir Losskly, The Vision of God, p. 99:

“The perfect knowledge of God which is attained in the age to come is no longer the ultimate goal, but one aspect of the final deification or of ‘the spiritual world of delights’ (τρυφῆς δὲ τρόπος πνευματικός ), as St Cyril says. We shall know Christ who will shine in us by the Holy Spirit, because we shall have ‘the mind of Christ’ (νοῦς Χριστοῦ) of which St Paul spoke, and this mind of Christ is the Holy Spirit present in us.”

St. Gregory Palamas and Orthodox Spirituality, by John Meyendorff, p. 103.

“Hence Palamas refused to give credence to what the ancient philosophers said of the knowledge of God. He developed a realistic doctrine of supernatural knowledge, independent of any sense experience but granted in Jesus Christ to man as a whole – body and soul – admitting him here below to the first fruits of final deification and the vision of God, not by his own powers but by the grace of God.”

The Hope of the Early Church: A Handbook of Patristic Eschatology, by Brian Daley, p. 202.

“Maximus makes it clear in a number of passages that the final divinization of rational creatures will only be realized in those who have shown themselves worthy of God's gift.”

Transcendent Mystery in Man, by Andrew N. Woznicki, p. 10.

“Kerygmatic proclamation of the possibility of the final divinization of each and every individual man is possible only by a metanoic and charismatic transformation by God.”

Saintly and Ascetic Life in the Church of Alexandria, by Metropolitan Makarios (Tillyrides) of Kenya and Irinoupolis.

“There were also champions and witnesses of the faith, who far from worldly comforts, tried to stress the importance of the spiritual battle for perfection of the individual and his final theosis.”
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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2011, 11:53:46 AM »

Thank you!  I am glad I asked.  Explains why I've not encountered it or noticed it necessarily.

It remains a strange phrasing to me, nonetheless.  "Ultimate theosis" seems a better potential phrasing to me.

One of the things that the whole idea does is point out that there is some ultimate moment of theosis from which there is no return, and opens the door, in spiritual discussion, to the idea that theosis does occur by stages, in which we can be taken up by grace many times, but never remain until the ultimate time, which for most, even the most holy, is beyond the grave.

Metropokitan Hilarion Alfeyev, St. Symeon the New Theologian, 257

According to Alfeyev, the Athanesian emphasis is on “the ontological difference between our adoption by God and deification on the one hand, and Christ’s sonship and divinity on the other: in the final deification ‘we become sons of God, but not in the same manner as He is, not by nature and reality, but by the grace of Him Who called us.’”


Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, St. Symeon the New Theologian, 264

“Elsewhere Symeon refers to the relics of the saints as proof of their final deification. Their bodies, since they were united with deified souls, are kept for many years without decomposition, being preserved for their final restoration and incorruption. In this argument Symeon follows John of Damscus, who also claimed that the saints became gods by adoption and cited as an example the incorruption of their relics.”

Vladimir Lossky, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, p. 244

“In the ceaseless struggle of the way of ascent, the way of cooperation with the divine will, created nature is more and more transformed by grace until the final deification which will be fully revealed in the Kingdom of God.”

Vladimir Losskly, The Vision of God, p. 99:

“The perfect knowledge of God which is attained in the age to come is no longer the ultimate goal, but one aspect of the final deification or of ‘the spiritual world of delights’ (τρυφῆς δὲ τρόπος πνευματικός ), as St Cyril says. We shall know Christ who will shine in us by the Holy Spirit, because we shall have ‘the mind of Christ’ (νοῦς Χριστοῦ) of which St Paul spoke, and this mind of Christ is the Holy Spirit present in us.”

St. Gregory Palamas and Orthodox Spirituality, by John Meyendorff, p. 103.

“Hence Palamas refused to give credence to what the ancient philosophers said of the knowledge of God. He developed a realistic doctrine of supernatural knowledge, independent of any sense experience but granted in Jesus Christ to man as a whole – body and soul – admitting him here below to the first fruits of final deification and the vision of God, not by his own powers but by the grace of God.”

The Hope of the Early Church: A Handbook of Patristic Eschatology, by Brian Daley, p. 202.

“Maximus makes it clear in a number of passages that the final divinization of rational creatures will only be realized in those who have shown themselves worthy of God's gift.”

Transcendent Mystery in Man, by Andrew N. Woznicki, p. 10.

“Kerygmatic proclamation of the possibility of the final divinization of each and every individual man is possible only by a metanoic and charismatic transformation by God.”

Saintly and Ascetic Life in the Church of Alexandria, by Metropolitan Makarios (Tillyrides) of Kenya and Irinoupolis.

“There were also champions and witnesses of the faith, who far from worldly comforts, tried to stress the importance of the spiritual battle for perfection of the individual and his final theosis.”

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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2011, 03:28:09 PM »

Define "final theosis."

Is a human being capable of achieving full and final deification?

Or has God set a limit to a human's deification so that when he reaches the limit we may speak of his or her "final theosis"?    Dragani teaches that this occurs in a purificatory time after death.


Btw, I have to laugh because in your earlier post you denied that "final theosis" is a possibility:

Quote from: Fr Lance
....as he [Dragani] believes as you and I that theosis is eternal as God is infinite.

But now you are searching for quotes to prove that theosis has a final point.    So one minute you claim it is ‘eternal’ and ‘infinite’ but a few hours later you claim the opposite.

A remarkable speedy example of development of doctrine!   laugh   And confusion, as you and Dragani flipflop...!  



Metropokitan Hilarion Alfeyev, St. Symeon the New Theologian, 257

According to Alfeyev, the Athanesian emphasis is on “the ontological difference between our adoption by God and deification on the one hand, and Christ’s sonship and divinity on the other: in the final deification ‘we become sons of God, but not in the same manner as He is, not by nature and reality, but by the grace of Him Who called us.’”


Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, St. Symeon the New Theologian, 264

“Elsewhere Symeon refers to the relics of the saints as proof of their final deification. Their bodies, since they were united with deified souls, are kept for many years without decomposition, being preserved for their final restoration and incorruption. In this argument Symeon follows John of Damscus, who also claimed that the saints became gods by adoption and cited as an example the incorruption of their relics.”

Vladimir Lossky, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, p. 244

“In the ceaseless struggle of the way of ascent, the way of cooperation with the divine will, created nature is more and more transformed by grace until the final deification which will be fully revealed in the Kingdom of God.”

Vladimir Losskly, The Vision of God, p. 99:

“The perfect knowledge of God which is attained in the age to come is no longer the ultimate goal, but one aspect of the final deification or of ‘the spiritual world of delights’ (τρυφῆς δὲ τρόπος πνευματικός ), as St Cyril says. We shall know Christ who will shine in us by the Holy Spirit, because we shall have ‘the mind of Christ’ (νοῦς Χριστοῦ) of which St Paul spoke, and this mind of Christ is the Holy Spirit present in us.”

St. Gregory Palamas and Orthodox Spirituality, by John Meyendorff, p. 103.

“Hence Palamas refused to give credence to what the ancient philosophers said of the knowledge of God. He developed a realistic doctrine of supernatural knowledge, independent of any sense experience but granted in Jesus Christ to man as a whole – body and soul – admitting him here below to the first fruits of final deification and the vision of God, not by his own powers but by the grace of God.”

The Hope of the Early Church: A Handbook of Patristic Eschatology, by Brian Daley, p. 202.

“Maximus makes it clear in a number of passages that the final divinization of rational creatures will only be realized in those who have shown themselves worthy of God's gift.”

Transcendent Mystery in Man, by Andrew N. Woznicki, p. 10.

“Kerygmatic proclamation of the possibility of the final divinization of each and every individual man is possible only by a metanoic and charismatic transformation by God.”

Saintly and Ascetic Life in the Church of Alexandria, by Metropolitan Makarios (Tillyrides) of Kenya and Irinoupolis.

“There were also champions and witnesses of the faith, who far from worldly comforts, tried to stress the importance of the spiritual battle for perfection of the individual and his final theosis.”

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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2011, 03:42:15 PM »


In all kindness, I have to say that as a long time Roman rite Catholic, I find the idea of calling theosis "final" is passing strange.  I am closest in my formal spiritual formation to the saints of the reformed Carmel and the saints of the Dominican order.  I was formed, in the Roman rite, in the spiritual writings of both traditions and I have never encountered such an image as "final theosis."   It is, to me, an oxymoron.

“Final theosis” would certainly be an oxymoron.

As much as would speaking of “Final Glory.”   I have in mind that Saint Paul speaks of our life after death as passing from glory to glory.  Is there a “Final Glory” beyond which we cannot go?

I think that what we may witness with Dragani is the adoption of a poorly thought out conceit which he embraced and which he is now reluctant to abandon.  An Orthodox spiritual father would need to examine if there are elements of prelest/plani.
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2011, 04:32:14 PM »

Define "final theosis."

Is a human being capable of achieving full and final deification?

Or has God set a limit to a human's deification so that when he reaches the limit we may speak of his or her "final theosis"?    Dragani teaches that this occurs in a purificatory time after death.


Btw, I have to laugh because in your earlier post you denied that "final theosis" is a possibility:

Quote from: Fr Lance
....as he [Dragani] believes as you and I that theosis is eternal as God is infinite.

But now you are searching for quotes to prove that theosis has a final point.    So one minute you claim it is ‘eternal’ and ‘infinite’ but a few hours later you claim the opposite.

A remarkable speedy example of development of doctrine!   laugh   And confusion, as you and Dragani flipflop...!  
[/quote]


Fr. Ambrose,

Now you are simply being dishonest and twisting words.  Dr. Dragani taught no such thing and clearly explained himself at byzcath.  I did not say Final Theosis was an impossibility.  I said Final Theosis was not finite. 

Final Theosis is that stage of theosis that is reached by the elect upon death.  Because God is infinite and eternal our theosis must be infinite and eternal.   For some the first stage of it includes a final purification.   

By Final Theosis we do not mean it is finite but that it is the last stage of a never ending process.  Mary asked where the term came from and I gave her an answer.   
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2011, 05:16:30 PM »

Define "final theosis."

Is a human being capable of achieving full and final deification?

Or has God set a limit to a human's deification so that when he reaches the limit we may speak of his or her "final theosis"?    Dragani teaches that this occurs in a purificatory time after death.


Btw, I have to laugh because in your earlier post you denied that "final theosis" is a possibility:

Quote from: Fr Lance
....as he [Dragani] believes as you and I that theosis is eternal as God is infinite.

But now you are searching for quotes to prove that theosis has a final point.    So one minute you claim it is ‘eternal’ and ‘infinite’ but a few hours later you claim the opposite.

A remarkable speedy example of development of doctrine!   laugh   And confusion, as you and Dragani flipflop...!  


Fr. Ambrose,

Now you are simply being dishonest and twisting words.  Dr. Dragani taught no such thing and clearly explained himself at byzcath.  I did not say Final Theosis was an impossibility.  I said Final Theosis was not finite. 

Final Theosis is that stage of theosis that is reached by the elect upon death.  Because God is infinite and eternal our theosis must be infinite and eternal.   For some the first stage of it includes a final purification.   

By Final Theosis we do not mean it is finite but that it is the last stage of a never ending process.  Mary asked where the term came from and I gave her an answer.   
[/quote]

Bad logic creates bad theology.  I am not going to even engage it.
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2011, 05:36:43 PM »


Fr. Ambrose,

Now you are simply being dishonest and twisting words.  Dr. Dragani taught no such thing and clearly explained himself at byzcath.  I did not say Final Theosis was an impossibility.  I said Final Theosis was not finite.  

Final Theosis is that stage of theosis that is reached by the elect upon death.  Because God is infinite and eternal our theosis must be infinite and eternal.   For some the first stage of it includes a final purification.    

By Final Theosis we do not mean it is finite but that it is the last stage of a never ending process.  Mary asked where the term came from and I gave her an answer.  

None of this really meshes with what Dragani says in his emended post-Byzcath explication of "Final Theosis" on his webpage http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm

He is still saying that "Final Theosis" is the Eastern understanding of what Latins understand by Purgatory and he is still asserting that our understandings of Purgatory and "Final Theosis" are one and the same...

"Although we do not use the same words, Eastern Orthodox/Catholics and Latin Catholics do essentially believe the same thing on this important point."
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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2012, 11:41:00 PM »

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm

He is still saying that "Final Theosis" is the Eastern understanding of what Latins understand by Purgatory and he is still asserting that our understandings of Purgatory and "Final Theosis" are one and the same...

I think what it comes down to is that he hasn't taken the time to rewrite the whole article, but only tacked on this note at the end:

Quote
Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2012, 11:45:48 PM »

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm

He is still saying that "Final Theosis" is the Eastern understanding of what Latins understand by Purgatory and he is still asserting that our understandings of Purgatory and "Final Theosis" are one and the same...

I think what it comes down to is that he hasn't taken the time to rewrite the whole article, but only tacked on this note at the end:

Quote
Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.

The only way to reconcile this with the article is to understand Final Theosis (Purgatory) as an infinite purgation which continues for eternity.
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« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2012, 12:44:01 PM »

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm

He is still saying that "Final Theosis" is the Eastern understanding of what Latins understand by Purgatory and he is still asserting that our understandings of Purgatory and "Final Theosis" are one and the same...

I think what it comes down to is that he hasn't taken the time to rewrite the whole article, but only tacked on this note at the end:

Quote
Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.

The only way to reconcile this with the article is to understand Final Theosis (Purgatory) as an infinite purgation which continues for eternity.

I don't want to reconcile them. Dr. Dragani's "Please note" is a correction of his earlier statement

Quote
In the East, we tend to have a much more positive view of the transition from death to Heaven. Rather than "Purgatory," we prefer to call it "the Final Theosis."

(which, if taken literally, implies that theosis ceases when one moves from Purgatory to Heaven). The clarification is, IMO, rather minimal but adequate.
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« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2012, 01:00:42 PM »

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm

He is still saying that "Final Theosis" is the Eastern understanding of what Latins understand by Purgatory and he is still asserting that our understandings of Purgatory and "Final Theosis" are one and the same...

I think what it comes down to is that he hasn't taken the time to rewrite the whole article, but only tacked on this note at the end:

Quote
Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.

The only way to reconcile this with the article is to understand Final Theosis (Purgatory) as an infinite purgation which continues for eternity.

I don't want to reconcile them. Dr. Dragani's "Please note" is a correction of his earlier statement

Quote
In the East, we tend to have a much more positive view of the transition from death to Heaven. Rather than "Purgatory," we prefer to call it "the Final Theosis."

(which, if taken literally, implies that theosis ceases when one moves from Purgatory to Heaven). The clarification is, IMO, rather minimal but adequate.

It might be useful to remember here what Dr. Dragani writes in the 3rd paragraph of his article on Purgatory, i.e. "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. "  (Emphasis mine.)
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« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2012, 02:42:40 PM »

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm

He is still saying that "Final Theosis" is the Eastern understanding of what Latins understand by Purgatory and he is still asserting that our understandings of Purgatory and "Final Theosis" are one and the same...

I think what it comes down to is that he hasn't taken the time to rewrite the whole article, but only tacked on this note at the end:

Quote
Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.

The only way to reconcile this with the article is to understand Final Theosis (Purgatory) as an infinite purgation which continues for eternity.

I don't want to reconcile them. Dr. Dragani's "Please note" is a correction of his earlier statement

Quote
In the East, we tend to have a much more positive view of the transition from death to Heaven. Rather than "Purgatory," we prefer to call it "the Final Theosis."

(which, if taken literally, implies that theosis ceases when one moves from Purgatory to Heaven). The clarification is, IMO, rather minimal but adequate.

It might be useful to remember here what Dr. Dragani writes in the 3rd paragraph of his article on Purgatory, i.e. "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. "  (Emphasis mine.)

I quite agree; although, from reading earlier parts of this thread, I'd say Fr. Ambrose is already well aware of that paragraph.
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« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2012, 02:46:19 PM »

Seems to me, after plodding through this messy section on PhD. Dragani...that we all would have been better served, including the truth of Catholic teaching, had he used the phrase "final kenosis" rather than final theosis...which does not, on the face of it, make much sense.

M.
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« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2012, 03:37:48 PM »

Seems to me, after plodding through this messy section on PhD. Dragani...that we all would have been better served, including the truth of Catholic teaching, had he used the phrase "final kenosis" rather than final theosis...which does not, on the face of it, make much sense.

M.

Kenosis as in "self-emptying"?

The phrase "final theosis" seems almost oxymoronic, given my understanding of theosis.  I have taken the liberty of emailing Dr. Dragani to ask him to clarify what he means by "final theosis".  I'll keep you posted.
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« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2012, 03:44:21 PM »

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm

He is still saying that "Final Theosis" is the Eastern understanding of what Latins understand by Purgatory and he is still asserting that our understandings of Purgatory and "Final Theosis" are one and the same...

I think what it comes down to is that he hasn't taken the time to rewrite the whole article, but only tacked on this note at the end:

Quote
Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.

The only way to reconcile this with the article is to understand Final Theosis (Purgatory) as an infinite purgation which continues for eternity.

I don't want to reconcile them. Dr. Dragani's "Please note" is a correction of his earlier statement

Quote
In the East, we tend to have a much more positive view of the transition from death to Heaven. Rather than "Purgatory," we prefer to call it "the Final Theosis."

(which, if taken literally, implies that theosis ceases when one moves from Purgatory to Heaven). The clarification is, IMO, rather minimal but adequate.

It might be useful to remember here what Dr. Dragani writes in the 3rd paragraph of his article on Purgatory, i.e. "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. "  (Emphasis mine.)

I quite agree; although, from reading earlier parts of this thread, I'd say Fr. Ambrose is already well aware of that paragraph.

I'm sure he is.  But so often when Purgatory is discussed it's so easy to lose sight of that and spin an ever increasingly intricate web of speculation, opinion, wishful thinking, and so on.  I'd imagine even a hieromonk *could*, every once in a while, be susceptible to that  Grin.  Not saying that he (or anyone else in particular) has, just that it's possible.
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« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2012, 04:27:32 PM »

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm

He is still saying that "Final Theosis" is the Eastern understanding of what Latins understand by Purgatory and he is still asserting that our understandings of Purgatory and "Final Theosis" are one and the same...

I think what it comes down to is that he hasn't taken the time to rewrite the whole article, but only tacked on this note at the end:

Quote
Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.

The only way to reconcile this with the article is to understand Final Theosis (Purgatory) as an infinite purgation which continues for eternity.

I don't want to reconcile them. Dr. Dragani's "Please note" is a correction of his earlier statement

Quote
In the East, we tend to have a much more positive view of the transition from death to Heaven. Rather than "Purgatory," we prefer to call it "the Final Theosis."

(which, if taken literally, implies that theosis ceases when one moves from Purgatory to Heaven). The clarification is, IMO, rather minimal but adequate.

It might be useful to remember here what Dr. Dragani writes in the 3rd paragraph of his article on Purgatory, i.e. "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. "  (Emphasis mine.)

Anthony Dragani has posted in this Forum about his article. He says that it was written when he was a theological neophyte and it needs redoing. 


He has adopted the unsustainable position that the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics and the Roman Catholics have a basically identical belief on this matter!!
http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm#Purgatory

Given that Catholics and Orthodox spent 4 months fighting over Purgatory at the Council of Florence, how he can sustain that claim escapes me!!!

Basically, imho, his position is confused and confusing and it may be best to simply ignore it until he clarifies his thoughts.
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« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2012, 04:32:15 PM »

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm

He is still saying that "Final Theosis" is the Eastern understanding of what Latins understand by Purgatory and he is still asserting that our understandings of Purgatory and "Final Theosis" are one and the same...

I think what it comes down to is that he hasn't taken the time to rewrite the whole article, but only tacked on this note at the end:

Quote
Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.

The only way to reconcile this with the article is to understand Final Theosis (Purgatory) as an infinite purgation which continues for eternity.

I don't want to reconcile them. Dr. Dragani's "Please note" is a correction of his earlier statement

Quote
In the East, we tend to have a much more positive view of the transition from death to Heaven. Rather than "Purgatory," we prefer to call it "the Final Theosis."

(which, if taken literally, implies that theosis ceases when one moves from Purgatory to Heaven). The clarification is, IMO, rather minimal but adequate.

It might be useful to remember here what Dr. Dragani writes in the 3rd paragraph of his article on Purgatory, i.e. "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. "  (Emphasis mine.)

Anthony Dragani has posted in this Forum about his article. He says that it was written when he was a theological neophyte and it needs redoing.  


He has adopted the unsustainable position that the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics and the Roman Catholics have a basically identical belief on this matter!!
http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm#Purgatory

Given that Catholics and Orthodox spent 4 months fighting over Purgatory at the Council of Florence, how he can sustain that claim escapes me!!!

Basically, imho, his position is confused and confusing and it may be best to simply ignore it until he clarifies his thoughts.

Just out of curiosity, have you discussed this with him?  If so, what has he said about it?

At the risk of exposing my profound ignorance and lack of understanding yet again, if this statement "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. " is true, what's to fight about?
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« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2012, 04:51:25 PM »

At the risk of exposing my profound ignorance and lack of understanding yet again, if this statement "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. " is true, what's to fight about?

Is it true? Exposing my own profound ignorance, but I thought I had seen quotes from Rome's post-schism ecumenical councils that were decidedly more detailed. And as Fr. Ambrose says, I know Purgatory was one of the major issues at Florence and it seems odd there would have been much controversy if the above 2 points were the only ones at issue. But I have to admit, its not an area of doctrine I've ever spent much time looking into--most of my knowledge of Purgatory comes from Dante which I realize is not an actual doctrinal document.
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« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2012, 04:57:53 PM »

Seems to me, after plodding through this messy section on PhD. Dragani...that we all would have been better served, including the truth of Catholic teaching, had he used the phrase "final kenosis" rather than final theosis...which does not, on the face of it, make much sense.

M.

Kenosis as in "self-emptying"?

The phrase "final theosis" seems almost oxymoronic, given my understanding of theosis.  I have taken the liberty of emailing Dr. Dragani to ask him to clarify what he means by "final theosis".  I'll keep you posted.

Only the Christ can truly "self-empty"...The rest of us depend on Him and His grace to be so liberated.

The emptying or cleansing of purgation is the final liberation before we join God in life everlasting where there will be not need for any further liberating moments in our lives...just illuminating ones...which would be a continuing theosis.

M.
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« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2012, 05:00:24 PM »

At the risk of exposing my profound ignorance and lack of understanding yet again, if this statement "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. " is true, what's to fight about?

Is it true? Exposing my own profound ignorance, but I thought I had seen quotes from Rome's post-schism ecumenical councils that were decidedly more detailed. And as Fr. Ambrose says, I know Purgatory was one of the major issues at Florence and it seems odd there would have been much controversy if the above 2 points were the only ones at issue. But I have to admit, its not an area of doctrine I've ever spent much time looking into--most of my knowledge of Purgatory comes from Dante which I realize is not an actual doctrinal document.

Well, I'm relieved that I'm not the *only* profoundly ignorant one here  Wink Grin Wink!

Dr. Dragani writes "...only two points are necessary dogma..." about Purgatory.  Could all the rest, i.e. the statements from Florence and Trent, just be "filler" or explanation/elaboration that is not truly "necessary"?  When I read what the Catechism says, it's pretty much in line with what Dragani says. 
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« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2012, 05:02:48 PM »

Seems to me, after plodding through this messy section on PhD. Dragani...that we all would have been better served, including the truth of Catholic teaching, had he used the phrase "final kenosis" rather than final theosis...which does not, on the face of it, make much sense.

M.

Kenosis as in "self-emptying"?

The phrase "final theosis" seems almost oxymoronic, given my understanding of theosis.  I have taken the liberty of emailing Dr. Dragani to ask him to clarify what he means by "final theosis".  I'll keep you posted.

Only the Christ can truly "self-empty"...The rest of us depend on Him and His grace to be so liberated.

The emptying or cleansing of purgation is the final liberation before we join God in life everlasting where there will be not need for any further liberating moments in our lives...just illuminating ones...which would be a continuing theosis.

M.

Unless I misunderstand you (what, *me*?? Grin), that seems very close to what Dr. Dragani writes on his website, if you include his final "note" on Purgatory.
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« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2012, 05:17:20 PM »


Just out of curiosity, have you discussed this with him?  If so, what has he said about it?

Yes.  See message 588.
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« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2012, 05:22:30 PM »

At the risk of exposing my profound ignorance and lack of understanding yet again, if this statement "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. " is true, what's to fight about?

These two statements are in agreement with the tradition of the Church (or can be interpreted as such.)

But would it be honest and truthful to say that Catholics stop there?

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« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2012, 05:26:11 PM »

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm

He is still saying that "Final Theosis" is the Eastern understanding of what Latins understand by Purgatory and he is still asserting that our understandings of Purgatory and "Final Theosis" are one and the same...

I think what it comes down to is that he hasn't taken the time to rewrite the whole article, but only tacked on this note at the end:

Quote
Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.

The only way to reconcile this with the article is to understand Final Theosis (Purgatory) as an infinite purgation which continues for eternity.

I don't want to reconcile them. Dr. Dragani's "Please note" is a correction of his earlier statement

Quote
In the East, we tend to have a much more positive view of the transition from death to Heaven. Rather than "Purgatory," we prefer to call it "the Final Theosis."

(which, if taken literally, implies that theosis ceases when one moves from Purgatory to Heaven). The clarification is, IMO, rather minimal but adequate.

It might be useful to remember here what Dr. Dragani writes in the 3rd paragraph of his article on Purgatory, i.e. "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. "  (Emphasis mine.)

I quite agree; although, from reading earlier parts of this thread, I'd say Fr. Ambrose is already well aware of that paragraph.

I'm sure he is.  But so often when Purgatory is discussed it's so easy to lose sight of that and spin an ever increasingly intricate web of speculation, opinion, wishful thinking, and so on.  I'd imagine even a hieromonk *could*, every once in a while, be susceptible to that  Grin.  Not saying that he (or anyone else in particular) has, just that it's possible.

It is in fact the hieromonk objecting to the idiocy of the teaching of final theosis which is just about the only sane point in this messy discussion. What is the claim that Purgatory is the Final Theosis but "speculation, opinion, wishful thinking, and so on."   laugh
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« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2012, 05:29:08 PM »


Just out of curiosity, have you discussed this with him?  If so, what has he said about it?

Yes.  See message 588.

Duh!! Embarrassed Grin Embarrassed Grin
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« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2012, 05:35:31 PM »

http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm

He is still saying that "Final Theosis" is the Eastern understanding of what Latins understand by Purgatory and he is still asserting that our understandings of Purgatory and "Final Theosis" are one and the same...

I think what it comes down to is that he hasn't taken the time to rewrite the whole article, but only tacked on this note at the end:

Quote
Please note: Eastern theology teaches that theosis is an infinite process, and does not cease when a person enters into heaven. The term "final theosis" is not intended to imply otherwise.

The only way to reconcile this with the article is to understand Final Theosis (Purgatory) as an infinite purgation which continues for eternity.

I don't want to reconcile them. Dr. Dragani's "Please note" is a correction of his earlier statement

Quote
In the East, we tend to have a much more positive view of the transition from death to Heaven. Rather than "Purgatory," we prefer to call it "the Final Theosis."

(which, if taken literally, implies that theosis ceases when one moves from Purgatory to Heaven). The clarification is, IMO, rather minimal but adequate.

It might be useful to remember here what Dr. Dragani writes in the 3rd paragraph of his article on Purgatory, i.e. "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. "  (Emphasis mine.)

I quite agree; although, from reading earlier parts of this thread, I'd say Fr. Ambrose is already well aware of that paragraph.

I'm sure he is.  But so often when Purgatory is discussed it's so easy to lose sight of that and spin an ever increasingly intricate web of speculation, opinion, wishful thinking, and so on.  I'd imagine even a hieromonk *could*, every once in a while, be susceptible to that  Grin.  Not saying that he (or anyone else in particular) has, just that it's possible.

It is in fact the hieromonk objecting to the idiocy of the teaching of final theosis which is just about the only sane point in this messy discussion.

Looks like I'm not the only one misunderstanding the phrase "final theosis".  Here is (part of) what Dr. Dragani wrote in reply to my email to him: "A number of Eastern Christian writers have used the term "final theosis" over the years, to indicate that it is the final stage, so to speak, as it is the stage following death.  It does NOT mean that theosis ends."  His juxtaposition of the words "final" and "theosis" was, I admit, pretty clumsy.  (I did not ask him to cite sources.)
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« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2012, 05:43:11 PM »

At the risk of exposing my profound ignorance and lack of understanding yet again, if this statement "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. " is true, what's to fight about?

These two statements are in agreement with the tradition of the Church (or can be interpreted as such.)

But would it be honest and truthful to say that Catholics stop there?



Has anyone said that Catholics do or do not stop there--in terms, that is, of what is **"necessary dogma"**?
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« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2012, 05:52:54 PM »

At the risk of exposing my profound ignorance and lack of understanding yet again, if this statement "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. " is true, what's to fight about?

These two statements are in agreement with the tradition of the Church (or can be interpreted as such.)

But would it be honest and truthful to say that Catholics stop there?



Has anyone said that Catholics do or do not stop there--in terms, that is, of what is **"necessary dogma"**?

A very important aspect of this is the power of the Pope to access and allocate the merits of Christ and the superfluous merits of the Catholic Saints to those in this transitional state.

Would a Catholic, bishop, priest or layman, be able to deny that the Pope can do this?  Can he cite the 'Two Points' to demonstrate that the Pope's claims are dubious, if not false?
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« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2012, 05:53:01 PM »

Seems to me, after plodding through this messy section on PhD. Dragani...that we all would have been better served, including the truth of Catholic teaching, had he used the phrase "final kenosis" rather than final theosis...which does not, on the face of it, make much sense.

M.

Kenosis as in "self-emptying"?

The phrase "final theosis" seems almost oxymoronic, given my understanding of theosis.  I have taken the liberty of emailing Dr. Dragani to ask him to clarify what he means by "final theosis".  I'll keep you posted.

Only the Christ can truly "self-empty"...The rest of us depend on Him and His grace to be so liberated.

The emptying or cleansing of purgation is the final liberation before we join God in life everlasting where there will be not need for any further liberating moments in our lives...just illuminating ones...which would be a continuing theosis.

M.

That's pretty much my understanding as well, although I may have worded it differently-but not differently enough to make any real difference, if you know what I mean  Wink.
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« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2012, 05:54:43 PM »

At the risk of exposing my profound ignorance and lack of understanding yet again, if this statement "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. " is true, what's to fight about?

These two statements are in agreement with the tradition of the Church (or can be interpreted as such.)

But would it be honest and truthful to say that Catholics stop there?



Has anyone said that Catholics do or do not stop there--in terms, that is, of what is **"necessary dogma"**?

A very important aspect of this is the power of the Pope to access and allocate the merits of Christ and the superfluous merits of the Catholic Saints to those in this transitional state.

Would a Catholic, bishop, priest or layman, be able to deny that the Pope can do this?  Can he cite the 'Two Points' to demonstrate that the Pope's claims are dubious, if not false?

I'm afraid you've lost me, now  Sad.  I'm not sure where you're coming from with that, and it doesn't seem to address my question at all.  I would have thought that either a "yes" or a "no" with, perhaps one or two examples would have been all that is "necessary" to answer my question.  But, that's just simple ole me  Wink.
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« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2012, 05:57:27 PM »

At the risk of exposing my profound ignorance and lack of understanding yet again, if this statement "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. " is true, what's to fight about?

Is it true? Exposing my own profound ignorance, but I thought I had seen quotes from Rome's post-schism ecumenical councils that were decidedly more detailed. And as Fr. Ambrose says, I know Purgatory was one of the major issues at Florence and it seems odd there would have been much controversy if the above 2 points were the only ones at issue. But I have to admit, its not an area of doctrine I've ever spent much time looking into--most of my knowledge of Purgatory comes from Dante which I realize is not an actual doctrinal document.

In terms of systematics in doctrine and theology, what J Michael says is true.  The rest is a matter of local traditions and pious beliefs.

As far as I can see in my reading of the history of the Council of Florence, the heated part of the discussion really came with respect to the particular judgment, with the east holding to the idea that no final settlement would be made for the soul until the final judgement, with the Latins holding to the teaching that the soul's eternity was decided at the moment of death.  That was the real sticking point from what I can see.  

And then even for the Latins the issues raised during the discussions with the Greeks were not entirely settled...neither at Florence nor at Ferrera.

A great deal of what we argue on these forums is simply a tempest in a mug.

M.



M.
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« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2012, 05:57:27 PM »

Seems to me, after plodding through this messy section on PhD. Dragani...that we all would have been better served, including the truth of Catholic teaching, had he used the phrase "final kenosis" rather than final theosis...which does not, on the face of it, make much sense.

M.

Kenosis as in "self-emptying"?

The phrase "final theosis" seems almost oxymoronic, given my understanding of theosis.  I have taken the liberty of emailing Dr. Dragani to ask him to clarify what he means by "final theosis".  I'll keep you posted.

Only the Christ can truly "self-empty"...The rest of us depend on Him and His grace to be so liberated.

The emptying or cleansing of purgation is the final liberation before we join God in life everlasting where there will be not need for any further liberating moments in our lives...just illuminating ones...which would be a continuing theosis.

M.

Unless I misunderstand you (what, *me*?? Grin), that seems very close to what Dr. Dragani writes on his website, if you include his final "note" on Purgatory.

Except for the fact that I do not conflate theosis with kenosis and call it final theosis...They are two very different conditions.  Kenosis is not everlasting once we are united with the divine.  Theosis which is the ever-expanding share in an infinite divinity is ever-lasting [I sometimes use the word eternal when the better phrase is ever-lasting.  I did that earlier, I think.  Maybe not  Smiley...doh]

M.
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« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2012, 06:02:39 PM »

The The emptying or cleansing of purgation is the final liberation before we join God in life everlasting where there will be not need for any further liberating moments in our lives...just illuminating ones...which would be a continuing theosis.
.

This is speculating on your part and not Catholic teaching.   As others have noted there are only TWO dogmas on the transitional post-mortem state.
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« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2012, 06:03:32 PM »

Seems to me, after plodding through this messy section on PhD. Dragani...that we all would have been better served, including the truth of Catholic teaching, had he used the phrase "final kenosis" rather than final theosis...which does not, on the face of it, make much sense.

M.

Kenosis as in "self-emptying"?

The phrase "final theosis" seems almost oxymoronic, given my understanding of theosis.  I have taken the liberty of emailing Dr. Dragani to ask him to clarify what he means by "final theosis".  I'll keep you posted.

Only the Christ can truly "self-empty"...The rest of us depend on Him and His grace to be so liberated.

The emptying or cleansing of purgation is the final liberation before we join God in life everlasting where there will be not need for any further liberating moments in our lives...just illuminating ones...which would be a continuing theosis.

M.

Unless I misunderstand you (what, *me*?? Grin), that seems very close to what Dr. Dragani writes on his website, if you include his final "note" on Purgatory.

Except for the fact that I do not conflate theosis with kenosis and call it final theosis...They are two very different conditions.  Kenosis is not everlasting once we are united with the divine.  Theosis which is the ever-expanding share in an infinite divinity is ever-lasting [I sometimes use the word eternal when the better phrase is ever-lasting.  I did that earlier, I think.  Maybe not  Smiley...doh]

M.

Ahh...okay!  It's becoming clearer.  Thanks! 

(You know, a lot of this is all Greek to me  Grin Roll Eyes laugh!)
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« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2012, 06:07:55 PM »

The The emptying or cleansing of purgation is the final liberation before we join God in life everlasting where there will be not need for any further liberating moments in our lives...just illuminating ones...which would be a continuing theosis.
.

This is speculating on your part and not Catholic teaching.   As others have noted there are only TWO dogmas on the transitional post-mortem state.

In Mary's defense (although she's more than capable of defending herself!), I think she is offering this by way of explanation, not as a statement of doctrine or dogma.  But then, what do I know?

(Reason for edit--Deleted uncharitable statement)
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« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2012, 08:39:37 PM »

At the risk of exposing my profound ignorance and lack of understanding yet again, if this statement "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. " is true, what's to fight about?

These two statements are in agreement with the tradition of the Church (or can be interpreted as such.)

But would it be honest and truthful to say that Catholics stop there?



Has anyone said that Catholics do or do not stop there--in terms, that is, of what is **"necessary dogma"**?

I really do not know how to answer that in terms of a Yes or No.

No, Catholics do not go beyond necessay dogma (i.e., the Two Points) or

Yes, Catholics do go beyond necessary dogma.

Indulgences would be an example of Catholics going beyond necessary dogma and the Two Points.

Another "going beyond" would be to say that there is suffering in purgatory.
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« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2012, 09:21:26 PM »

At the risk of exposing my profound ignorance and lack of understanding yet again, if this statement "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state. " is true, what's to fight about?

Is it true?

Good question. To be honest, when I first read Dragani's page on Purgatory (this was a good half-dozen years ago) I guess I basically said to myself "Well that's good" and moved on to another issue. But when you really come down to it, I can't confidently say "only [those] two points are necessary dogma" etc.
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« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2012, 09:31:56 PM »


Just out of curiosity, have you discussed this with him?  If so, what has he said about it?

Yes.  See message 588.

Hey don't make me come over there!

But seriously, here's one thread:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/333029/Dragani#Post333029
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« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2012, 09:37:48 PM »

Here is (part of) what Dr. Dragani wrote in reply to my email to him ...

Here's what I find strange: when someone asks him about it, he seems to have plenty of time to discuss it with him or her (for example, his email to you, and his conversation with Fr. Ambrose and others at byzcath); but when it comes to fixing what he said on his own webpage, he only has (or takes) the time to do the absolute minimum (and Fr. Ambrose would probably say that he didn't even do the minimum).
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