Topic: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons

[dcommini]

Prove to me that Lucifer is synonymous with Satan and you might have a leg to stand on. Also, prove how Lucifer is not synonymous with Jesus when the Bible makes reference to Jesus being the morning star, not saying I would ever use that name for Jesus.

And, do what thou oughtest to do could be translated in modern speach to me telling my daughter to do what she should do such as her prayers, cleaning her room and stop terrorizing her mother.

First of all, what is with so many people having St. Patrick for their avatar?

As I said before, I deeply respect St. Patrick, but I am also passively protesting something that I'd rather not discuss in open conversation out of respect for the admins.

pike pushes for changing Lucifer bck to its original meaning and the the "god" of freemasonry brings light and therefore is Lucifer in the strictest sense going purely by the strict meaning

So why Lucifer? Why not Helios or Mithras?

Fourth, Morals and Dogma is not a Freemason hand book, but a Scottish rite hand book, but even then it doesnt speak for the whole of the scottish rite

But why would the Scottish Rite masons allow it to go on being published if they were against it?

I know that if a guy published something stating that the Lions Club worshipped the head of an actual lion, the ink would not dry on that publication before the Lions Club had something to say about it.

PP

I remember my friend telling me about a Bishop Lucifer of Caligari from the 4th century. Known for his passionate arguments against Arianism. Some consider him a saint in Catholicism (not sure about Orthodoxy), and there is at least one Church of San Lucifero. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_of_Cagliari

How the name came to be associated with Satan is by applying a passage from Isiah 14: 3-20, which was written about a Babylonian king, to the Devil. The term originally meant light bearer and was associated with the Morning Star (Venus). Some have pointed to Origen, St. Augustine, or Tertullian as the first to use it to mean the Devil.

The association of Lucifer/Satan to freemasonery derives from what is called the "Taxil Hoax", which is just that.

From The Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon:

Neither the attributes nor personification of Lucifer or Satan play any role in the beliefs or rituals of Freemasonry. The topic is only of interest insofar as anti-masonic attacks have accused Freemasonry of worshiping Lucifer. The confusion stems from such 19th century masonic authors as Albert Pike and Albert G. Mackey who have used the term "luciferian" in its classical or literary sense to refer to a search for knowledge. John Robinson notes "The emphasis here should be on intent. When Albert Pike and other Masonic scholars spoke over a century ago about the "Luciferian path," or the "energies of Lucifer," they were referring to the morning star, the light bearer, the search for light; the very antithesis of dark, satanic evil."

Also, from A Page about Freemasonry a quote from Leo Taxil, the man who originated the Satanic-Masonic connection:

"The public made me what I am, the arch-liar of the period, for when I first commenced to write against the Masons my object was amusement pure and simple. The crimes laid at their door were so grotesque, so impossible, so widely exaggerated, I thought everybody would see the joke and give me credit for originating a new line of humour. But my readers wouldn't have it so; they accepted my fables as gospel truth, and the more I lied for the purpose of showing that I lied, the more convinced became they that I was a paragon of veracity."

Also of interest:

A confession by Leo Taxil.

taxil may be dead, but his hoax lives on.

The Leo Taxil Hoax

Wikipedia's Taxil Hoax Article

And a word of advice to the people adhering to this hoax, if your website mentions the "Illuminati" or "New World Order" or attempts to ascribe conspiracies or Satanic meanings to all sorts of otherwise easily explainable things, it's probably not all that credible of a place.

Now, I'm not all that big a fan of the masons, but let's stick to facts, shall we?

I don't agree at all, and I"m sticking to the FACTS with proof.

Again Albert Pike's book - Morals and Dogma.

Every Masonic Lodge is a Temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion   (pg 213)

"LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" -Page 321.
(Freemasons search for "light" or Illumination)

"To make this also their motto: Do that which thou oughtest to do; let the result be what it will." -Page 333  (This is very similar to the wiccan creed of "Do what thou wilt" and also Aliester Crowley who made the motto "Do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law".  This contradicts "thy will be done" and promotes one making themselves God, as lucifer did.)

Couple just those few things with the pentagrams used the oaths sworn, and twisting that Lucifer and Jesus are one in the same, and you have yourself a gnostic/luciferian church.

[dcommini]

How the name came to be associated with Satan is by applying a passage from Isiah 14: 3-20, which was written about a Babylonian king, to the Devil. The term originally meant light bearer and was associated with the Morning Star (Venus). Some have pointed to Origen, St. Augustine, or Tertullian as the first to use it to mean the Devil.

Absolutely correct. I was about to write about this. Thank you for doing so.

Now, I'm not all that big a fan of the masons, but let's stick to facts, shall we?

Now, why should we let facts stand in the way of holding whatever opinions we like? 

Heh, no problem. Conspiracy theories in general are something I don't like.

And that's one of the problems with the name Lucifer. It never originally meant Satan, so when it pops up in other contexts, people assume it must be a reference to the devil.

That's the point I tried tto make in my early post. Also, as to why the fremasons don't come out against Pike is that everybody is free to believe what they believe, that and Pike was never in a position to be th spokesman for Freemasonry (no man ever is). Was Pike influential? Yes, but only in his jurisidiction, that being the southern and some western states. Many Masons from the northern states don't know who pike is, and at the time of Pikes writing many in the north d not agree with what Pike wrote.

Pike was a 33 degree mason, and his book is extremely famous and highly revered by masons.   
The problem here is that even if you denounce Pike as a good source, that you still have to get past the Pentagrams, blood oaths, rituals, calling the lodge leader "worshipful master", and the aprons used in the rituals (as they do in witchcraft and high level mormon rituals).

OK, so Pike got an honorary degree, and his book is only famous because of people who take what he said way out of context. It has aalready been stated that many Masons have not only never heard of Pike, but have never read his works which were intended only for tthe southern jurisdiction of the Scottish rite.

Pentagrams have been used ffor centuries, well before they were associated with the occult. Blood oaths, ever say cross my heart, hope to die, stick a needle in my eye if i lie? Maybe not as detailed as the oaths the Masons give, but it is the same in essence. Worshipful master, this title comes from aa time when it was popular to call those above you, such as royalty, judges, and even those in the Church "your worship". It is a sign of respect for the person who runs the lodge, it does not mean that the person running the llodge is meant to be worshipped. The term master would be hailing from the ooperative mason days when the mmaster was the head honcho and assigned the work to be done.

Oh, dear! You have me on the aprons, I guess when my wife and I cook we are really practicing magic dedicated to he dark lord because we wear aprons! I guess my time spent working in a grocery store was actually a front for my occultic practices since I had to wear an apron. I guess when i did carpentry and wore an apron to hold my tools i was really building hhouses o evil worship dedicated tto Lucifer. I also guess blacksmits are worshipping Satan as they wear aprons when they work. And masons Wearing aprons have nothing to do with them hailing from operative Stonemasons who wore aprons to help keep their clothes clean anand hold ttools, but iis a sign of them worshipping baphomet. I'm so glad you opened my eyes to this.

And rituals, really? Really? I suppose every time I did a military funeral I was really summoning demons because we had a ritual on how we did those. I suppose all of the Orthodox, Catholic, and high church Protestants are really calling forth dark powers because of the rituals. I suppose every college fraternity everywhere is worshipping Satan since they have rituals to initiate new people. Or maybe, just maybe this is all poppycock!

[Sauron]

Pike was a 33 degree mason, and his book is extremely famous and highly revered by masons.   
The problem here is that even if you denounce Pike as a good source, that you still have to get past the Pentagrams, blood oaths, rituals, calling the lodge leader "worshipful master", and the aprons used in the rituals (as they do in witchcraft and high level mormon rituals).

How would you know what Masons revere?

By the way, how do you suggest a Canadian Christian address the mayor of his town?

[username!]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

   Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!

Liza is a cool person who is nice and likes people to be as nice as she is.  No hidden agenda there, she's taking nice-ness and payin' it forward.

[username!]

Pike was a 33 degree mason, and his book is extremely famous and highly revered by masons.   
The problem here is that even if you denounce Pike as a good source, that you still have to get past the Pentagrams, blood oaths, rituals, calling the lodge leader "worshipful master", and the aprons used in the rituals (as they do in witchcraft and high level mormon rituals).

How would you know what Masons revere?

By the way, how do you suggest a Canadian Christian address the mayor of his town?

Obviously only the 33rd degree  Masons can know that the groundhog in Pennsylvania is the real core belief at the centre of masonry.
Sheesh!

[Sauron]

Pike was a 33 degree mason, and his book is extremely famous and highly revered by masons.   
The problem here is that even if you denounce Pike as a good source, that you still have to get past the Pentagrams, blood oaths, rituals, calling the lodge leader "worshipful master", and the aprons used in the rituals (as they do in witchcraft and high level mormon rituals).

How would you know what Masons revere?

By the way, how do you suggest a Canadian Christian address the mayor of his town?

Obviously only the 33rd degree  Masons can know that the groundhog in Pennsylvania is the real core belief at the centre of masonry.
Sheesh!

How did you ever get that picture from our secret blood oath and sacrifice rituals?!?!

[LizaSymonenko]

Liza is a cool person who is nice and likes people to be as nice as she is.  No hidden agenda there, she's taking nice-ness and payin' it forward.

 

[Riddikulus]

Pike was a 33 degree mason, and his book is extremely famous and highly revered by masons.  
The problem here is that even if you denounce Pike as a good source, that you still have to get past the Pentagrams, blood oaths, rituals, calling the lodge leader "worshipful master", and the aprons used in the rituals (as they do in witchcraft and high level mormon rituals).

How would you know what Masons revere?

By the way, how do you suggest a Canadian Christian address the mayor of his town?

We Brits have traditionally called him or her "your worship". Worship simply means honour and there are degrees; adoration being at the top. Wycliffe's bible; "Worship your Mother and Father" in old English, before the silliness of Reformers messing with the English language and the word was finally confined to something offered to God alone; a mistake compounded in the New World. "With my body I thee worship", I said to my husband during our marriage vows. Don't think hubby ever got the idea that I thought he was God. If he was labouring under any such misapprehension, he was soon cured.

[podkarpatska]

Pike was a 33 degree mason, and his book is extremely famous and highly revered by masons.   
The problem here is that even if you denounce Pike as a good source, that you still have to get past the Pentagrams, blood oaths, rituals, calling the lodge leader "worshipful master", and the aprons used in the rituals (as they do in witchcraft and high level mormon rituals).

How would you know what Masons revere?

By the way, how do you suggest a Canadian Christian address the mayor of his town?

Obviously only the 33rd degree  Masons can know that the groundhog in Pennsylvania is the real core belief at the centre of masonry.
Sheesh!

Obviously these men are insidious worshipers of an evil rodent-king - a king who lazily sleeps away half of his life - and they want you to BELIEVE that they are silly and pretentious. What is that little rodent really doing in western PA?? Is he really a rodent? It sort of looks like they are holding - maybe an apron?- over his head?

[username!]

Pike was a 33 degree mason, and his book is extremely famous and highly revered by masons.   
The problem here is that even if you denounce Pike as a good source, that you still have to get past the Pentagrams, blood oaths, rituals, calling the lodge leader "worshipful master", and the aprons used in the rituals (as they do in witchcraft and high level mormon rituals).

How would you know what Masons revere?

By the way, how do you suggest a Canadian Christian address the mayor of his town?

Obviously only the 33rd degree  Masons can know that the groundhog in Pennsylvania is the real core belief at the centre of masonry.
Sheesh!

How did you ever get that picture from our secret blood oath and sacrifice rituals?!?!

From an online source

[ironchapman]

I don't agree at all, and I"m sticking to the FACTS with proof.

Again Albert Pike's book - Morals and Dogma.

Every Masonic Lodge is a Temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion   (pg 213)

"LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" -Page 321.
(Freemasons search for "light" or Illumination)

"To make this also their motto: Do that which thou oughtest to do; let the result be what it will." -Page 333  (This is very similar to the wiccan creed of "Do what thou wilt" and also Aliester Crowley who made the motto "Do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law".  This contradicts "thy will be done" and promotes one making themselves God, as lucifer did.)

Couple just those few things with the pentagrams used the oaths sworn, and twisting that Lucifer and Jesus are one in the same, and you have yourself a gnostic/luciferian church.

And I think I and others in this thread have answered all of your claims made about Pike, Masons, etc.

And Lucifer, as we have explained already was never originally the name of the Devil. There's even a Lucifer of Italy, as I pointed out before, who is venerated as a Saint by some, at least in the Roman Catholic church. He was a renowned fierce opponent of heresy. You clearly don't understand the history of the word lucifer.

As for your quote from pg 321, how about providing a little more context for those words. Like so:

The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apothesis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone,  and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the  Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who  bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, for traditions are full of sensual or selfish Souls ? Doubt it not!  Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of  one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.  The Apocalypse, indeed, is a book as obscure as the Sohar.  It is written hieroglyphically with numbers and images; and  the Apostle often appeals to the intelligence of the Initiated.  “Let him who hath knowledge, understand! let him who understands, calculate !” he often says, after an allegory or the mention  of a number. Saint John, the favorite Apostle, and the Depositary  of all the Secrets of the Saviour, therefore did not write to be  understood by the multitude.

Now we know that Lucifer, as in the Devil, can appear as an angel of light, and that his light can blind the feeble. We know that the churches throughout history (traditions) have had their share of believers who have been selfish and sensual at one time or another in their lives (just as those who are not Christian have been) leaving them open to being led astray by the Devil's false light. Also, Pike is clearly surprised that the name "Lucifer" is associated with the Prince of Darkness.

And we have proof, furthermore, that the word "lucifer" with a lowercase letter L is used to refer to Jesus. See here:

2 Peter 1:19

19 Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem : cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernæ lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris:

In English:

19 And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts.

From that "day star" link:

The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.

But, and this is a critical distinction, when Jesus is referred to as "lucifer" it is always with a lower case l. Jesus is NEVER referred to as "Lucifer" with a capital L. The Devil, meanwhile, is the capital L Lucifer. Albert Pike is referring to the capital L Lucifer in his text, as we can plainly see.

As for your page 333 quote:

Urge upon your Brethren the teaching and the unostentatious practice of the morality of the Lodge, without regard to times, places, religions, or peoples.
 Urge them to love one another, to be devoted to one another, to be faithful to the country, the government, and the laws: for to serve the country is to pay a dear and sacred debt:
 To respect all forms of worship, to tolerate all political and religious opinions; not to blame, and still less to condemn the religion of others: not to seek to make converts; but to be content if they have the religion of Socrates; a veneration for the Creator, the religion of good works, and grateful acknowledgment of God’s blessings:
 To fraternize with all men; to assist all who are unfortunate; and to cheerfully postpone their own interests to that of the Order: To make it the constant rule of their lives, to think well, to speak well, and to act well:
 To place the sage above the soldier, the noble, or the prince: and take the wise and good as their models: To see that their professions and practice, their teachings and conduct, do always agree:
To make this also their motto: Do that which thou oughtest to do; let the result be what it will.
 Such, my Brother, are some of the duties of that office which you have sought to be qualified to exercise. May you perform them well; and in so doing gain honor for yourself, and advance the great cause of Masonry, Humanity, and Progress.

The key difference between "Do what thou wilt" and "Do that which thou oughtest to do: let the result be what it will" is that the former, Wiccan motto does not use the word "ought". In the context of the latter, Mason motto, placed in the greater context of the preceding passage from Pike's book, the word ought implies that the person the passage applies to has some obligations or duties to fulfill, which are listed in the preceding sentences before the motto. In other words, the person in charge ought to fulfill these duties and not worry about what the result will be. The Masons themselves, particularly the leadership, are not permitted to do what they wilt.

Now, as I said, I do have problems with freemasonry, namely the ecumenism and the implication that all religions are equal (indifferentism). Furthermore, I do see possible elements of gnosticism in freemasonry, and the Pike passages I quoted may imply some of this. The page 213 passage that you mentioned is, in particular, a troublesome one, especially if they really do treat all religions as equal.

However, let's be careful to distinguish what they are not. They are not a church or cult which worships the Devil, and they are not some sinister group bent on world domination. I don't see elements of the occult here (though doubtless there are masonic occultists), just the possible embracing of a few heresies. The Freemasons, by all that I see, are at worst a deistic association that is a relic of the Enlightenment era. If you read Morals and Dogma, I think you can see this.

As for the pentagrams, I believe others have spoken well enough about this subject, so I will not go into much detail. The pentagram is not something unique to Freemasonry, and neither is it purely a modern Pagan/Wiccan symbol either. Christians once wore them to symbolize the five wounds of Christ. The first recorded usage of it was in ancient Sumer. The Christians even though that their pentagrams would keep demons away!

I mean, I hesitate to recommend this, and it certainly wasn't my only source in providing all that I have written in this post, but a quick trip to Wikipedia on some of these topics could clear up some of what you are saying.

[dcommini]

+1

I don't agree at all, and I"m sticking to the FACTS with proof.

Again Albert Pike's book - Morals and Dogma.

Every Masonic Lodge is a Temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion   (pg 213)

"LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" -Page 321.
(Freemasons search for "light" or Illumination)

"To make this also their motto: Do that which thou oughtest to do; let the result be what it will." -Page 333  (This is very similar to the wiccan creed of "Do what thou wilt" and also Aliester Crowley who made the motto "Do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law".  This contradicts "thy will be done" and promotes one making themselves God, as lucifer did.)

Couple just those things with the pentagrams used the oaths sworn, and twisting that Lucifer and Jesus are one in the same, and you have yourself a gnostic/luciferian church.

And I think I and others in this thread have answered all of your claims made about Pike, Masons, etc.

And Lucifer, as we have explained already was never originally the name of the Devil. There's even a Lucifer of Italy, as I pointed out before, who is venerated as a Saint by some, at least in the Roman Catholic church. He was a renowned fierce opponent of heresy. You clearly don't understand the history of the word lucifer.

As for your quote from pg 321, how about providing a little more context for those words. Like so:

The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apothesis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone,  and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the  Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who  bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, for traditions are full of sensual or selfish Souls ? Doubt it not!  Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of  one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.  The Apocalypse, indeed, is a book as obscure as the Sohar.  It is written hieroglyphically with numbers and images; and  the Apostle often appeals to the intelligence of the Initiated.  “Let him who hath knowledge, understand! let him who understands, calculate !” he often says, after an allegory or the mention  of a number. Saint John, the favorite Apostle, and the Depositary  of all the Secrets of the Saviour, therefore did not write to be  understood by the multitude.

Now we know that Lucifer, as in the Devil, can appear as an angel of light, and that his light can blind the feeble. We know that the churches throughout history (traditions) have had their share of believers who have been selfish and sensual at one time or another in their lives (just as those who are not Christian have been) leaving them open to being led astray by the Devil's false light. Also, Pike is clearly surprised that the name "Lucifer" is associated with the Prince of Darkness.

And we have proof, furthermore, that the word "lucifer" with a lowercase letter L is used to refer to Jesus. See here:

2 Peter 1:19

19 Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem : cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernæ lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris:

In English:

19 And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts.

From that "day star" link:

The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.

But, and this is a critical distinction, when Jesus is referred to as "lucifer" it is always with a lower case l. Jesus is NEVER referred to as "Lucifer" with a capital L. The Devil, meanwhile, is the capital L Lucifer. Albert Pike is referring to the capital L Lucifer in his text, as we can plainly see.

As for your page 333 quote:

Urge upon your Brethren the teaching and the unostentatious practice of the morality of the Lodge, without regard to times, places, religions, or peoples.
 Urge them to love one another, to be devoted to one another, to be faithful to the country, the government, and the laws: for to serve the country is to pay a dear and sacred debt:
 To respect all forms of worship, to tolerate all political and religious opinions; not to blame, and still less to condemn the religion of others: not to seek to make converts; but to be content if they have the religion of Socrates; a veneration for the Creator, the religion of good works, and grateful acknowledgment of God’s blessings:
 To fraternize with all men; to assist all who are unfortunate; and to cheerfully postpone their own interests to that of the Order: To make it the constant rule of their lives, to think well, to speak well, and to act well:
 To place the sage above the soldier, the noble, or the prince: and take the wise and good as their models: To see that their professions and practice, their teachings and conduct, do always agree:
To make this also their motto: Do that which thou oughtest to do; let the result be what it will.
 Such, my Brother, are some of the duties of that office which you have sought to be qualified to exercise. May you perform them well; and in so doing gain honor for yourself, and advance the great cause of Masonry, Humanity, and Progress.

The key difference between "Do what thou wilt" and "Do that which thou oughtest to do: let the result be what it will" is that the former, Wiccan motto does not use the word "ought". In the context of the latter, Mason motto, placed in the greater context of the preceding passage from Pike's book, the word ought implies that the person the passage applies to has some obligations or duties to fulfill, which are listed in the preceding sentences before the motto. In other words, the person in charge ought to fulfill these duties and not worry about what the result will be. The Masons themselves, particularly the leadership, are not permitted to do what they wilt.

Now, as I said, I do have problems with freemasonry, namely the ecumenism and the implication that all religions are equal (indifferentism). Furthermore, I do see possible elements of gnosticism in freemasonry, and the Pike passages I quoted may imply some of this. The page 213 passage that you mentioned is, in particular, a troublesome one, especially if they really do treat all religions as equal.

However, let's be careful to distinguish what they are not. They are not a church or cult which worships the Devil, and they are not some sinister group bent on world domination. I don't see elements of the occult here (though doubtless there are masonic occultists), just the possible embracing of a few heresies. The Freemasons, by all that I see, are at worst a deistic association that is a relic of the Enlightenment era. If you read Morals and Dogma, I think you can see this.

As for the pentagrams, I believe others have spoken well enough about this subject, so I will not go into much detail. The pentagram is not something unique to Freemasonry, and neither is it purely a modern Pagan/Wiccan symbol either. Christians once wore them to symbolize the five wounds of Christ. The first recorded usage of it was in ancient Sumer. The Christians even though that their pentagrams would keep demons away!

I mean, I hesitate to recommend this, and it certainly wasn't my only source in providing all that I have written in this post, but a quick trip to Wikipedia on some of these topics could clear up some of what you are saying.

[podkarpatska]

re: ironchapman

Rarely, if ever, do we find succinct, clearly formulated and easy to understand presentations in response to rambling and oft-repeated 'popular' opinions on certain topics - freemasonry being one of the ones that pops up frequently online and on television networks such as the History family. Ironchapman succeeded on all counts coming from a non-involved point of view with the subject. Thank you for your post.

Your description of freemasonry as being a 'left-over' relic from the deistic heyday of the Enlightenment seems to me to be right on point. At one point in time, belonging to a lodge was an important component in some parts of the US for a young man to 'move' up the business or social ladder. Today, it seems to be just what you described - a relic from another era with club-like rituals like a fraternity.

When I was a child most of the 'leading' men from the Metropolia and Greek parishes in town were members of the so-called 'Orthodox Square Club' composed of lower-degree Masons who were Orthodox. They offered scholarships, did other good works, a few of them rode foolish looking cars in parades and they hosted parties with funny hats.There were a few of them in our ACROD  and the Ukrainian church in town as well. From time to time they would come to a funeral home and 'do their thing' with the aprons, etc.... To a young altar server in the 60's and 70's, their rituals seemed 'out of time' and, frankly silly. As time went by these men have mostly died out and for the life of me I do not remember the last time such a ritual was performed.

In my mind this whole 'issue' is a non-issue and akin to beating a dead horse as I do not think Masonry has had any of the appeal it previously had among men under sixty years of age in this country. None of my peers are involved as far as I know and there is no longer a local Square Club.

 

[ironchapman]

re: ironchapman

Rarely, if ever, do we find succinct, clearly formulated and easy to understand presentations in response to rambling and oft-repeated 'popular' opinions on certain topics - freemasonry being one of the ones that pops up frequently online and on television networks such as the History family. Ironchapman succeeded on all counts coming from a non-involved point of view with the subject. Thank you for your post.

Your description of freemasonry as being a 'left-over' relic from the deistic heyday of the Enlightenment seems to me to be right on point. At one point in time, belonging to a lodge was an important component in some parts of the US for a young man to 'move' up the business or social ladder. Today, it seems to be just what you described - a relic from another era with club-like rituals like a fraternity.

When I was a child most of the 'leading' men from the Metropolia and Greek parishes in town were members of the so-called 'Orthodox Square Club' composed of lower-degree Masons who were Orthodox. They offered scholarships, did other good works, a few of them rode foolish looking cars in parades and they hosted parties with funny hats.There were a few of them in our ACROD  and the Ukrainian church in town as well. From time to time they would come to a funeral home and 'do their thing' with the aprons, etc.... To a young altar server in the 60's and 70's, their rituals seemed 'out of time' and, frankly silly. As time went by these men have mostly died out and for the life of me I do not remember the last time such a ritual was performed.

In my mind this whole 'issue' is a non-issue and akin to beating a dead horse as I do not think Masonry has had any of the appeal it previously had among men under sixty years of age in this country. None of my peers are involved as far as I know and there is no longer a local Square Club.

 

I appreciate that! I can't say I always succeed in providing that kind of a response (and I have been known for my more intemperate outbursts, especially in real life), but whenever I can, I like to let the facts, as I see them, speak for themselves.

[ag_vn]

http://www.antiochian.org/content/memory-eternal-isaac-paul-bojrab

Fr. Joseph Rahal writes:

Isaac Paul Bojrab, 88, passed away Friday, March 30, 2012. Born in Ft. Wayne, Indiana, Ike was a WWII Army Veteran and co-owner of D.G. Bojrab & Sons Well Drilling. He was a member and a founder of St. John Chrysostom Antiochian Orthodox Church in Fort Wayne; The Order of St. Ignatius; Leo Lodge No. 224, F.&A.M.; Scottish Rite; Mizpah Shrine; Trinity Chapter of Eastern Star, #576; and American Legion Post #47. He was blessed with 64 years of marriage to his wife, Marie; sons, Richard (Regina) Bojrab, R. Ph., Paul (Jennifer) Bojrab, MD., both of Ft. Wayne, and Dennis (Andria) Bojrab, MD. of Bloomfield Hills, MI; daughter, Debra (Bill) Fliotsos of Ft. Wayne; and 11 grandchildren. He was preceded in death by his parents, David and Sarah (Abdulla) Bojrab; brothers, George and Peter Bojrab; and sisters, Sadie Skaff, Margaret Slyby, and Gladys Koury.

The funeral service was held at 10 am, Monday, April 2, 2012 at St. John Chrysostom Antiochian Orthodox Church, with a Masonic Service at 4:30 pm and Trisagion Prayers at 7:30 pm. Isaac was laid to rest in Lindenwood Cemetery. Memorials may be offered to St. John Chrysostom Church for a special project fund. To sign the online guest book, go to www.mccombandsons.com.

I find this a little embarrassing.

[dcommini]

http://www.antiochian.org/content/memory-eternal-isaac-paul-bojrab

Fr. Joseph Rahal writes:

Isaac Paul Bojrab, 88, passed away Friday, March 30, 2012. Born in Ft. Wayne, Indiana, Ike was a WWII Army Veteran and co-owner of D.G. Bojrab & Sons Well Drilling. He was a member and a founder of St. John Chrysostom Antiochian Orthodox Church in Fort Wayne; The Order of St. Ignatius; Leo Lodge No. 224, F.&A.M.; Scottish Rite; Mizpah Shrine; Trinity Chapter of Eastern Star, #576; and American Legion Post #47. He was blessed with 64 years of marriage to his wife, Marie; sons, Richard (Regina) Bojrab, R. Ph., Paul (Jennifer) Bojrab, MD., both of Ft. Wayne, and Dennis (Andria) Bojrab, MD. of Bloomfield Hills, MI; daughter, Debra (Bill) Fliotsos of Ft. Wayne; and 11 grandchildren. He was preceded in death by his parents, David and Sarah (Abdulla) Bojrab; brothers, George and Peter Bojrab; and sisters, Sadie Skaff, Margaret Slyby, and Gladys Koury.

The funeral service was held at 10 am, Monday, April 2, 2012 at St. John Chrysostom Antiochian Orthodox Church, with a Masonic Service at 4:30 pm and Trisagion Prayers at 7:30 pm. Isaac was laid to rest in Lindenwood Cemetery. Memorials may be offered to St. John Chrysostom Church for a special project fund. To sign the online guest book, go to www.mccombandsons.com.

I find this a little embarrassing.

Why, because he was a Mason, or because the Masonic service seems to have been held in the church? Or both?

[mike]

Why, because he was a Mason, or because the Masonic service seems to have been held in the church? Or both?

Both. And that the Church spreads it.

[Babalon]

First of all, what is with so many people having St. Patrick for their avatar?

As I said before, I deeply respect St. Patrick, but I am also passively protesting something that I'd rather not discuss in open conversation out of respect for the admins.

pike pushes for changing Lucifer bck to its original meaning and the the "god" of freemasonry brings light and therefore is Lucifer in the strictest sense going purely by the strict meaning

So why Lucifer? Why not Helios or Mithras?

Fourth, Morals and Dogma is not a Freemason hand book, but a Scottish rite hand book, but even then it doesnt speak for the whole of the scottish rite

But why would the Scottish Rite masons allow it to go on being published if they were against it?

I know that if a guy published something stating that the Lions Club worshipped the head of an actual lion, the ink would not dry on that publication before the Lions Club had something to say about it.

PP

I remember my friend telling me about a Bishop Lucifer of Caligari from the 4th century. Known for his passionate arguments against Arianism. Some consider him a saint in Catholicism (not sure about Orthodoxy), and there is at least one Church of San Lucifero. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_of_Cagliari

How the name came to be associated with Satan is by applying a passage from Isiah 14: 3-20, which was written about a Babylonian king, to the Devil. The term originally meant light bearer and was associated with the Morning Star (Venus). Some have pointed to Origen, St. Augustine, or Tertullian as the first to use it to mean the Devil.

The association of Lucifer/Satan to freemasonery derives from what is called the "Taxil Hoax", which is just that.

From The Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon:

Neither the attributes nor personification of Lucifer or Satan play any role in the beliefs or rituals of Freemasonry. The topic is only of interest insofar as anti-masonic attacks have accused Freemasonry of worshiping Lucifer. The confusion stems from such 19th century masonic authors as Albert Pike and Albert G. Mackey who have used the term "luciferian" in its classical or literary sense to refer to a search for knowledge. John Robinson notes "The emphasis here should be on intent. When Albert Pike and other Masonic scholars spoke over a century ago about the "Luciferian path," or the "energies of Lucifer," they were referring to the morning star, the light bearer, the search for light; the very antithesis of dark, satanic evil."

Also, from A Page about Freemasonry a quote from Leo Taxil, the man who originated the Satanic-Masonic connection:

"The public made me what I am, the arch-liar of the period, for when I first commenced to write against the Masons my object was amusement pure and simple. The crimes laid at their door were so grotesque, so impossible, so widely exaggerated, I thought everybody would see the joke and give me credit for originating a new line of humour. But my readers wouldn't have it so; they accepted my fables as gospel truth, and the more I lied for the purpose of showing that I lied, the more convinced became they that I was a paragon of veracity."

Also of interest:

A confession by Leo Taxil.

taxil may be dead, but his hoax lives on.

The Leo Taxil Hoax

Wikipedia's Taxil Hoax Article

And a word of advice to the people adhering to this hoax, if your website mentions the "Illuminati" or "New World Order" or attempts to ascribe conspiracies or Satanic meanings to all sorts of otherwise easily explainable things, it's probably not all that credible of a place.

Now, I'm not all that big a fan of the masons, but let's stick to facts, shall we?

I don't agree at all, and I"m sticking to the FACTS with proof.

Again Albert Pike's book - Morals and Dogma.

Every Masonic Lodge is a Temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion   (pg 213)

"LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" -Page 321.
(Freemasons search for "light" or Illumination)

"To make this also their motto: Do that which thou oughtest to do; let the result be what it will." -Page 333  (This is very similar to the wiccan creed of "Do what thou wilt" and also Aliester Crowley who made the motto "Do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law".  This contradicts "thy will be done" and promotes one making themselves God, as lucifer did.)

Couple just those few things with the pentagrams used the oaths sworn, and twisting that Lucifer and Jesus are one in the same, and you have yourself a gnostic/luciferian church.

I'm not going to even touch on the wildly out-of-context Lucifer quotes, but i will correct you on this.

The "Wiccan Creed", or "Rede" is actually something along the lines of "An it harm none, do as ye will.". Which is just a corruption of Aleister Crowley's philosophy of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."(Not "thy wilt". This is very important.) The concept of will in the Thelemic context, is far removed from passing ego-driven indulgence. It is both a freedom, and a strict bond. The concept of will in Crowley's system is analogous to the divine will, manifested in humanity.
The wiccan version, is essentially copied from Crowley but taking out all the esoteric and spiritual connotations. So in an esoteric sense, it is not the antithesis to divine will- but the propagation of it.

I'm not saying this is Christian, because it's not- but misunderstanding an influential ideology such as this can really be damaging to ones structure of argument.

[yeshuaisiam]

+1

I don't agree at all, and I"m sticking to the FACTS with proof.

Again Albert Pike's book - Morals and Dogma.

Every Masonic Lodge is a Temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion   (pg 213)

"LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" -Page 321.
(Freemasons search for "light" or Illumination)

"To make this also their motto: Do that which thou oughtest to do; let the result be what it will." -Page 333  (This is very similar to the wiccan creed of "Do what thou wilt" and also Aliester Crowley who made the motto "Do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law".  This contradicts "thy will be done" and promotes one making themselves God, as lucifer did.)

Couple just those things with the pentagrams used the oaths sworn, and twisting that Lucifer and Jesus are one in the same, and you have yourself a gnostic/luciferian church.

And I think I and others in this thread have answered all of your claims made about Pike, Masons, etc.

And Lucifer, as we have explained already was never originally the name of the Devil. There's even a Lucifer of Italy, as I pointed out before, who is venerated as a Saint by some, at least in the Roman Catholic church. He was a renowned fierce opponent of heresy. You clearly don't understand the history of the word lucifer.

As for your quote from pg 321, how about providing a little more context for those words. Like so:

The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apothesis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone,  and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the  Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who  bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, for traditions are full of sensual or selfish Souls ? Doubt it not!  Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of  one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.  The Apocalypse, indeed, is a book as obscure as the Sohar.  It is written hieroglyphically with numbers and images; and  the Apostle often appeals to the intelligence of the Initiated.  “Let him who hath knowledge, understand! let him who understands, calculate !” he often says, after an allegory or the mention  of a number. Saint John, the favorite Apostle, and the Depositary  of all the Secrets of the Saviour, therefore did not write to be  understood by the multitude.

Now we know that Lucifer, as in the Devil, can appear as an angel of light, and that his light can blind the feeble. We know that the churches throughout history (traditions) have had their share of believers who have been selfish and sensual at one time or another in their lives (just as those who are not Christian have been) leaving them open to being led astray by the Devil's false light. Also, Pike is clearly surprised that the name "Lucifer" is associated with the Prince of Darkness.

And we have proof, furthermore, that the word "lucifer" with a lowercase letter L is used to refer to Jesus. See here:

2 Peter 1:19

19 Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem : cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernæ lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris:

In English:

19 And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts.

From that "day star" link:

The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.

But, and this is a critical distinction, when Jesus is referred to as "lucifer" it is always with a lower case l. Jesus is NEVER referred to as "Lucifer" with a capital L. The Devil, meanwhile, is the capital L Lucifer. Albert Pike is referring to the capital L Lucifer in his text, as we can plainly see.

As for your page 333 quote:

Urge upon your Brethren the teaching and the unostentatious practice of the morality of the Lodge, without regard to times, places, religions, or peoples.
 Urge them to love one another, to be devoted to one another, to be faithful to the country, the government, and the laws: for to serve the country is to pay a dear and sacred debt:
 To respect all forms of worship, to tolerate all political and religious opinions; not to blame, and still less to condemn the religion of others: not to seek to make converts; but to be content if they have the religion of Socrates; a veneration for the Creator, the religion of good works, and grateful acknowledgment of God’s blessings:
 To fraternize with all men; to assist all who are unfortunate; and to cheerfully postpone their own interests to that of the Order: To make it the constant rule of their lives, to think well, to speak well, and to act well:
 To place the sage above the soldier, the noble, or the prince: and take the wise and good as their models: To see that their professions and practice, their teachings and conduct, do always agree:
To make this also their motto: Do that which thou oughtest to do; let the result be what it will.
 Such, my Brother, are some of the duties of that office which you have sought to be qualified to exercise. May you perform them well; and in so doing gain honor for yourself, and advance the great cause of Masonry, Humanity, and Progress.

The key difference between "Do what thou wilt" and "Do that which thou oughtest to do: let the result be what it will" is that the former, Wiccan motto does not use the word "ought". In the context of the latter, Mason motto, placed in the greater context of the preceding passage from Pike's book, the word ought implies that the person the passage applies to has some obligations or duties to fulfill, which are listed in the preceding sentences before the motto. In other words, the person in charge ought to fulfill these duties and not worry about what the result will be. The Masons themselves, particularly the leadership, are not permitted to do what they wilt.

Now, as I said, I do have problems with freemasonry, namely the ecumenism and the implication that all religions are equal (indifferentism). Furthermore, I do see possible elements of gnosticism in freemasonry, and the Pike passages I quoted may imply some of this. The page 213 passage that you mentioned is, in particular, a troublesome one, especially if they really do treat all religions as equal.

However, let's be careful to distinguish what they are not. They are not a church or cult which worships the Devil, and they are not some sinister group bent on world domination. I don't see elements of the occult here (though doubtless there are masonic occultists), just the possible embracing of a few heresies. The Freemasons, by all that I see, are at worst a deistic association that is a relic of the Enlightenment era. If you read Morals and Dogma, I think you can see this.

As for the pentagrams, I believe others have spoken well enough about this subject, so I will not go into much detail. The pentagram is not something unique to Freemasonry, and neither is it purely a modern Pagan/Wiccan symbol either. Christians once wore them to symbolize the five wounds of Christ. The first recorded usage of it was in ancient Sumer. The Christians even though that their pentagrams would keep demons away!

I mean, I hesitate to recommend this, and it certainly wasn't my only source in providing all that I have written in this post, but a quick trip to Wikipedia on some of these topics could clear up some of what you are saying.

I don't know what else to say.  If Orthodox Christians or any Christian are going to believe that Lucifer spelled with a lower case "l" actually refers to our savior Yeshua/Jesus, I'm rendered speechless, and can no longer discuss.

It's basically like somebody telling me that a triangle is a circle, or that a tree is a rock.    To see a +1 on the argument itself, it is hopeless.

I also find it odd how photos of groundhog's day are used to quasi mock the point, when I have posted photos of their temples with altars on top of pentagrams.  "Yeah the big bad masons with a groundhog.... so scary".   Sorry guys, pointless to go further.

[rakovsky]

Dear 'Jesus is Jehovah',

One look at the Mitre and you see the Eagles of "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike.  Ironic photo too, since many hold ecumenism as Masonic.

The symbol of the two headed eagle has been a Roman symbol for a long time. The Masonic symbol is a riff on this, but was originally a two headed phoenix bird that has been changed into a two headed eagle:

The current Presidential Seal has an eagle in it. The eagle replaced the Phoenix(the original national bird) in 1841 as the national bird... The Phoenix was adopted by the Founding Fathers for use on the reverse of the first official seal of the United States after a design proposed by Charles Thompson, Secretary of the Continental Congress.

Manly P. Hall, in his book, The Lost Keys of Freemasonry , states, "These were the immortals to whom the term 'phoenix' was applied, and their symbol was the mysterious two-headed bird, now called an eagle , a familiar and little understood Masonic emblem ." http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/2o5.htm

While the two headed eagle used by Orthodox is not Masonic, the topic points to the use of the phoenix by Greek Masons:

Ioannis Kapodistrias would become the first head of state in Greece (1827-1831) and was the head of the Phoenix Lodge while still in Moscow. In fact, he even named the first Greek currency ‘phoenix’...

The grandest Greek secret society of them all, the Philiki Etaireia (“Friendly Society”) used the phoenix as its symbol. Nowadays it is still one of the symbolic emblems of the Freemason Lodges in Greece. Lastly, during the Junta in Greece (1967-1974) the symbol of the regime was the Phoenix again.

Membership card of the Philiki Etaireia. [Notice the red cross, like rosicrucianism (rosey cross-ians)]
http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006/10oct/greekfreemasonry.html

Such groups in Greece also suggest a relation to the Neo-fascist occult party Golden Dawn. The occult order's supposed support of the Orthodox Church also brings to mind how occultist groups try to coopt legitimate Christian symbols and groups.

[rakovsky]

Username,

You wrote:

It's fun really, and I don't care what anyone says.  Unless you've been through degree rituals you wouldn't understand.  No one gets hurt.  

Unfortunately, I learned this is not necessarily true, depending on the group. The History Channel had an interview with a Mason explaining where the term "getting the 3rd degree" comes from. Previously I thought this was just a vague allegation by detractors. The program was not specific, but it sounded from the program like the lodge members beat the person up.

[rakovsky]

Orthodox Square Club
www.osca-int.org

Serbian Eastern Rite
www.pagrandlodge.org/aserb

[Babalon]

Dear 'Jesus is Jehovah',

One look at the Mitre and you see the Eagles of "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike.  Ironic photo too, since many hold ecumenism as Masonic.

The symbol of the two headed eagle has been a Roman symbol for a long time. The Masonic symbol is a riff on this, but was originally a two headed phoenix bird that has been changed into a two headed eagle:

The current Presidential Seal has an eagle in it. The eagle replaced the Phoenix(the original national bird) in 1841 as the national bird... The Phoenix was adopted by the Founding Fathers for use on the reverse of the first official seal of the United States after a design proposed by Charles Thompson, Secretary of the Continental Congress.

Manly P. Hall, in his book, The Lost Keys of Freemasonry , states, "These were the immortals to whom the term 'phoenix' was applied, and their symbol was the mysterious two-headed bird, now called an eagle , a familiar and little understood Masonic emblem ." http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/2o5.htm

While the two headed eagle used by Orthodox is not Masonic, the topic points to the use of the phoenix by Greek Masons:

Ioannis Kapodistrias would become the first head of state in Greece (1827-1831) and was the head of the Phoenix Lodge while still in Moscow. In fact, he even named the first Greek currency ‘phoenix’...

The grandest Greek secret society of them all, the Philiki Etaireia (“Friendly Society”) used the phoenix as its symbol. Nowadays it is still one of the symbolic emblems of the Freemason Lodges in Greece. Lastly, during the Junta in Greece (1967-1974) the symbol of the regime was the Phoenix again.

Membership card of the Philiki Etaireia. [Notice the red cross, like rosicrucianism (rosey cross-ians)]
http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006/10oct/greekfreemasonry.html

Such groups in Greece also suggest a relation to the Neo-fascist occult party Golden Dawn. The occult order's supposed support of the Orthodox Church also brings to mind how occultist groups try to coopt legitimate Christian symbols and groups.

The Golden Dawn of modern Greece is a Neo-Nazi political party, nothing more. You're confusing it with the Hermetic Order of The Golden Dawn, which was an initiatory magic order formed in the 19th century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn

Other than the name, the two organizations share absolutely nothing in common.

[rakovsky]

The Golden Dawn of modern Greece is a Neo-Nazi political party, nothing more. You're confusing it with the Hermetic Order of The Golden Dawn, which was an initiatory magic order formed in the 19th century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn

Other than the name, the two organizations share absolutely nothing in common.

I believe that the Greek Neo-Nazis got their name from the Occult group. The Greek Neo-Nazis writings include occultism in their magazine, as I discussed on another thread about Golden Dawn you can find on the forum.

Where else did they pick their name from? They are both occult groups, although one is largely a political party.

[Nikolaos Greek]

You can't be both. You either follow God or devil.

[LizaSymonenko]

There is no need to join any other organization. 

You are part of the Church, there is nothing else that competes with what you already have.

[mike]

There is no need to join any other organization. 

I'm a member of one. Been sided with 3 or 4 more.

[podkarpatska]

Back in the day, the Square Club was a big deal in many areas.  I don't know any members under 80 these days....it was viewed back then as a means to "Americanize" and show the Protestant small town ruling class that the Orthodox  really weren't  a weird secret  Papist sect, what with all that incense and pictures on the church walls and stuff....

[LizaSymonenko]

There is no need to join any other organization.  

I'm a member of one. Been sided with 3 or 4 more.

I don't mean church organizations, or organizations you have to join for work (ie. union, etc.)

I am talking about organizations that require you to swear an oath of some sort, etc.

I've never been a member of any organization other than Church related ones.

[Cyrillic]

I am talking about organizations that require you to swear an oath of some sort, etc.

What about court? Or the boy scouts?

[dcommini]

I am talking about organizations that require you to swear an oath of some sort, etc.

What about court? Or the boy scouts?

Well, according to some the latter is a Masonic based organization.

[mike]

There is no need to join any other organization. 

I'm a member of one. Been sided with 3 or 4 more.

I don't mean church organizations, or organizations you have to join for work (ie. union, etc.)

I am talking about organizations that require you to swear an oath of some sort, etc.

I've never been a member of any organization other than Church related ones.

I know of Church organisations that require oaths.

[rakovsky]

Back in the day, the Square Club was a big deal in many areas.... it was viewed back then as a means to show the Protestant small town ruling class that the Orthodox  really weren't  a weird secret sect, what with all that incense and pictures on the church walls and stuff....

[rakovsky]

I am talking about organizations that require you to swear an oath of some sort, etc.

What about court? Or the boy scouts?

Well, according to some the latter is a Masonic based organization.

And where do you think the "gavel" comes from?

[Rambam]

To the masons on here ... What do you think about the traditional observance movement, putting Korans and baghavad gitas on the altar next to the bible, etc.? And all that mithras-isis-osiris stuff in the Scottish Rite?

Seems like Masonry is being de-Christianized a little, at least in my state.

[Shanghaiski]

To the masons on here ... What do you think about the traditional observance movement, putting Korans and baghavad gitas on the altar next to the bible, etc.? And all that mithras-isis-osiris stuff in the Scottish Rite?

Seems like Masonry is being de-Christianized a little, at least in my state.

It never was Christian to begin with, really.

[Rambam]

To the masons on here ... What do you think about the traditional observance movement, putting Korans and baghavad gitas on the altar next to the bible, etc.? And all that mithras-isis-osiris stuff in the Scottish Rite?

Seems like Masonry is being de-Christianized a little, at least in my state.

It never was Christian to begin with, really.

Well, I've done enough Blue lodge and York Rite to see that there are at least a few connections.  As in, a lot of connections.

[Rambam]

But then, I think I was probably the only mason in the country who thought that. Ha.

[rakovsky]

I think the claim that the FMs are connected to the Templars is true, but there are over 300 years separating them. 13something-17something.

One of the interesting questions is whether the Templars were also an occult group or whether that was just made up by the Machievellian French king.

[dcommini]

I think the claim that the FMs are connected to the Templars is true, but there are over 300 years separating them. 13something-17something.

One of the interesting questions is whether the Templars were also an occult group or whether that was just made up by the Machievellian French king.

According to some Scottish sources (that I don't currently have here with me at work) the Freemasons started in Scotland. There they also claim to have started in the 1500's IIRC. So not so much time had passed.

To the masons on here ... 

Good luck getting any who are on here to answer this. You might get some to respond in a PM, but I doubt if there are any current FMs on here that they will just out themselves in this thread.

[dcommini]

I am talking about organizations that require you to swear an oath of some sort, etc.

What about court? Or the boy scouts?

Well, according to some the latter is a Masonic based organization.

And where do you think the "gavel" comes from?

Robert's Rules of Orders, of course 

[Rambam]

Oh well, looked like there were some on here. So mote it be!

I think the claim that the FMs are connected to the Templars is true, but there are over 300 years separating them. 13something-17something.

One of the interesting questions is whether the Templars were also an occult group or whether that was just made up by the Machievellian French king.

According to some Scottish sources (that I don't currently have here with me at work) the Freemasons started in Scotland. There they also claim to have started in the 1500's IIRC. So not so much time had passed.

To the masons on here ... 

Good luck getting any who are on here to answer this. You might get some to respond in a PM, but I doubt if there are any current FMs on here that they will just out themselves in this thread.

[Rambam]

And by connection, I meant that masonry is saturated with Judeo Christian trappings. Not that it's actually a 'Christian' organization or that the Yorkies are actually descendents of the Templars.

[dcommini]

And by connection, I meant that masonry is saturated with Judeo Christian trappings. Not that it's actually a 'Christian' organization or that the Yorkies are actually descendents of the Templars.

The "Yorkies", as you call them, may or may not be descended from the Templars. But, as you know, you must be a professing Christian to become a Templar through the York Rite (at least, from I have been told). I am not aware of any other thing that has to do with Masonry that requires you to profess any other faith, fwiw.

[Rambam]

FYI, just so everyone knows, I actually got expelled from masonry about three years ago for arguing too strongly (and on a blog, no less!) that the Christianity in Masonry was critically important to it.

I'll just butt out of the conversation -- don't want to mislead anybody, who, out of zeal for the institution, may want to mix it up with me. Thanks!

And by connection, I meant that masonry is saturated with Judeo Christian trappings. Not that it's actually a 'Christian' organization or that the Yorkies are actually descendents of the Templars.

The "Yorkies", as you call them, may or may not be descended from the Templars. But, as you know, you must be a professing Christian to become a Templar through the York Rite (at least, from I have been told). I am not aware of any other thing that has to do with Masonry that requires you to profess any other faith, fwiw.