Author Topic: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons  (Read 66217 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,990
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • St. Gregory the Theologian Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox (former WR)
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Boston
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #135 on: February 13, 2012, 02:23:36 PM »
Quote
The non-Blue Lodges degrees are not considered "higher". They are considered lateral.

And, some high degrees! Here is how to get your 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite: watch a bunch of short plays over the course of a weekend. Presto! You now have your 32nd degree. I showed up on Saturday morning as a 3d degree and left the next day as a 32nd degree
I do have a question for you Sauron. What do you make of Albert Pike? He's said some pretty outlandish things (Luciferian things if I recall) and he was pretty high up.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline 88Devin12

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,182
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Denver
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #136 on: February 13, 2012, 02:30:31 PM »
Quote
The non-Blue Lodges degrees are not considered "higher". They are considered lateral.

And, some high degrees! Here is how to get your 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite: watch a bunch of short plays over the course of a weekend. Presto! You now have your 32nd degree. I showed up on Saturday morning as a 3d degree and left the next day as a 32nd degree
I do have a question for you Sauron. What do you make of Albert Pike? He's said some pretty outlandish things (Luciferian things if I recall) and he was pretty high up.

PP

What if you had a "high up" Freemason that was Muslim and started referring to God as Allah and Jesus as only a Prophet? Freemasonry isn't meant to slant to any specific religion, its "ecumenical". So if someone really was "Satanic", they could theoretically still be a Freemason, it doesn't mean that one person reflects all Freemasonry, not matter how high up they've made it.

Of course, that is one of our church's problems with freemasonry, is that it is too ecumenical and treats all deist religions as potentially valid.

That is what I've tried to explain to my brother. He tried to explain to us that he isn't changing his Christian faith and the Masons weren't changing it, that they are open to all faiths. Yet I tried to explain that was one of the problems, that it is a bit too open, and the "prayers" or statements are too vague.

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,990
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • St. Gregory the Theologian Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox (former WR)
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Boston
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #137 on: February 13, 2012, 02:38:29 PM »
Quote
The non-Blue Lodges degrees are not considered "higher". They are considered lateral.

And, some high degrees! Here is how to get your 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite: watch a bunch of short plays over the course of a weekend. Presto! You now have your 32nd degree. I showed up on Saturday morning as a 3d degree and left the next day as a 32nd degree
I do have a question for you Sauron. What do you make of Albert Pike? He's said some pretty outlandish things (Luciferian things if I recall) and he was pretty high up.

PP

What if you had a "high up" Freemason that was Muslim and started referring to God as Allah and Jesus as only a Prophet? Freemasonry isn't meant to slant to any specific religion, its "ecumenical". So if someone really was "Satanic", they could theoretically still be a Freemason, it doesn't mean that one person reflects all Freemasonry, not matter how high up they've made it.

Of course, that is one of our church's problems with freemasonry, is that it is too ecumenical and treats all deist religions as potentially valid.

That is what I've tried to explain to my brother. He tried to explain to us that he isn't changing his Christian faith and the Masons weren't changing it, that they are open to all faiths. Yet I tried to explain that was one of the problems, that it is a bit too open, and the "prayers" or statements are too vague.
No, it is ont the same thing. Pike spoke specifically about Luciferianism and Masonry. Also about Atlantis and Masonry. He tried to join the two. What he said was never publically disavowed by the order.

I'm not saying that it IS that way, but anyone who is a mason would at least have to address this eventually.

PP

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #138 on: February 13, 2012, 03:56:33 PM »
First of all, what is with so many people having St. Patrick for their avatar?

Second, as I have studied masonry and know many masons I can attest that no one person can speak for the whole organization, so even if Pike was pushing a Luciferian agenda he wasn't pushing it for the whole of Freemasonry.

Third, it is very obvious that Pike is talking about how the devil should not be called Lucifer as Lucifer means light bringer and the devil brings darkness. pike pushes for changing Lucifer bck to its original meaning and the the "god" of freemasonry brings light and therefore is Lucifer in the strictest sense going purely by the strict meaning.

Fourth, Morals and Dogma is not a Freemason hand book, but a Scottish rite hand book, but even then it doesnt speak for the whole of the scottish rite.
OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,990
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • St. Gregory the Theologian Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox (former WR)
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Boston
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #139 on: February 13, 2012, 04:05:11 PM »
Quote
First of all, what is with so many people having St. Patrick for their avatar?
As I said before, I deeply respect St. Patrick, but I am also passively protesting something that I'd rather not discuss in open conversation out of respect for the admins.

Quote
pike pushes for changing Lucifer bck to its original meaning and the the "god" of freemasonry brings light and therefore is Lucifer in the strictest sense going purely by the strict meaning
So why Lucifer? Why not Helios or Mithras?

Quote
Fourth, Morals and Dogma is not a Freemason hand book, but a Scottish rite hand book, but even then it doesnt speak for the whole of the scottish rite
But why would the Scottish Rite masons allow it to go on being published if they were against it?

I know that if a guy published something stating that the Lions Club worshipped the head of an actual lion, the ink would not dry on that publication before the Lions Club had something to say about it.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline 88Devin12

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,182
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Denver
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #140 on: February 13, 2012, 04:29:25 PM »
Quote
First of all, what is with so many people having St. Patrick for their avatar?
As I said before, I deeply respect St. Patrick, but I am also passively protesting something that I'd rather not discuss in open conversation out of respect for the admins.

Quote
pike pushes for changing Lucifer bck to its original meaning and the the "god" of freemasonry brings light and therefore is Lucifer in the strictest sense going purely by the strict meaning
So why Lucifer? Why not Helios or Mithras?

Quote
Fourth, Morals and Dogma is not a Freemason hand book, but a Scottish rite hand book, but even then it doesnt speak for the whole of the scottish rite
But why would the Scottish Rite masons allow it to go on being published if they were against it?

I know that if a guy published something stating that the Lions Club worshipped the head of an actual lion, the ink would not dry on that publication before the Lions Club had something to say about it.

PP

But I think the thing about the Freemason's, is that if they have someone that does believe Lucifer is God, and states that in a writing, even a prominent one, I doubt they would say anything because they are based upon allowing deists/theists of all sorts into their organization without bias. I don't think their lack of denial or protest is a sign that they all believe or accept that. Their silence is simply an affirmation of their openness towards all beliefs in a deity.

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,990
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • St. Gregory the Theologian Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox (former WR)
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Boston
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #141 on: February 13, 2012, 04:59:56 PM »
Quote
First of all, what is with so many people having St. Patrick for their avatar?
As I said before, I deeply respect St. Patrick, but I am also passively protesting something that I'd rather not discuss in open conversation out of respect for the admins.

Quote
pike pushes for changing Lucifer bck to its original meaning and the the "god" of freemasonry brings light and therefore is Lucifer in the strictest sense going purely by the strict meaning
So why Lucifer? Why not Helios or Mithras?

Quote
Fourth, Morals and Dogma is not a Freemason hand book, but a Scottish rite hand book, but even then it doesnt speak for the whole of the scottish rite
But why would the Scottish Rite masons allow it to go on being published if they were against it?

I know that if a guy published something stating that the Lions Club worshipped the head of an actual lion, the ink would not dry on that publication before the Lions Club had something to say about it.

PP

But I think the thing about the Freemason's, is that if they have someone that does believe Lucifer is God, and states that in a writing, even a prominent one, I doubt they would say anything because they are based upon allowing deists/theists of all sorts into their organization without bias. I don't think their lack of denial or protest is a sign that they all believe or accept that. Their silence is simply an affirmation of their openness towards all beliefs in a deity.
I understand that, but if you are publishing an idea and stating it is a handbook, or some other form of direction of an official group, and said group does not refute those teaching, then it accepts them.

If a Freemason publishes a "handbook" for Scottish Rite, and the Scottish Rite does not come out and say, "No, this is not an official teaching," then they have no problem with it. At least publically.


PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #142 on: February 13, 2012, 05:09:32 PM »
Sauron, your faith says: "Catholic- Latin Rite". How did you get around the Papal ban of Freemasonary? Why not join the Knights of Columbus instead?

I am also in the KoC. Of course, I will not be eligible for KoC membership once I convert to EO.

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #143 on: February 13, 2012, 05:12:37 PM »
Quote
The non-Blue Lodges degrees are not considered "higher". They are considered lateral.

And, some high degrees! Here is how to get your 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite: watch a bunch of short plays over the course of a weekend. Presto! You now have your 32nd degree. I showed up on Saturday morning as a 3d degree and left the next day as a 32nd degree
I do have a question for you Sauron. What do you make of Albert Pike? He's said some pretty outlandish things (Luciferian things if I recall) and he was pretty high up.

PP

I do not make much of him, to be quite honest. He is a famous Mason who wrote a book of philosophy in relation to the Scottish Rite. He is by no means the pope of Masonry. As I may have said in earlier posts, no man speaks for Masonry. It has no head.

Of note, the preface of Morals and Dogma states, "Everyone is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound."

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,990
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • St. Gregory the Theologian Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox (former WR)
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Boston
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #144 on: February 13, 2012, 05:22:35 PM »
Quote
The non-Blue Lodges degrees are not considered "higher". They are considered lateral.

And, some high degrees! Here is how to get your 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite: watch a bunch of short plays over the course of a weekend. Presto! You now have your 32nd degree. I showed up on Saturday morning as a 3d degree and left the next day as a 32nd degree
I do have a question for you Sauron. What do you make of Albert Pike? He's said some pretty outlandish things (Luciferian things if I recall) and he was pretty high up.

PP

I do not make much of him, to be quite honest. He is a famous Mason who wrote a book of philosophy in relation to the Scottish Rite. He is by no means the pope of Masonry. As I may have said in earlier posts, no man speaks for Masonry. It has no head.

Of note, the preface of Morals and Dogma states, "Everyone is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound."

Excellent. Thank you for that.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #145 on: February 13, 2012, 05:57:05 PM »
Quote
The non-Blue Lodges degrees are not considered "higher". They are considered lateral.

And, some high degrees! Here is how to get your 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite: watch a bunch of short plays over the course of a weekend. Presto! You now have your 32nd degree. I showed up on Saturday morning as a 3d degree and left the next day as a 32nd degree
I do have a question for you Sauron. What do you make of Albert Pike? He's said some pretty outlandish things (Luciferian things if I recall) and he was pretty high up.

PP

I do not make much of him, to be quite honest. He is a famous Mason who wrote a book of philosophy in relation to the Scottish Rite. He is by no means the pope of Masonry. As I may have said in earlier posts, no man speaks for Masonry. It has no head.

Of note, the preface of Morals and Dogma states, "Everyone is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound."

Excellent. Thank you for that.

PP

My pleasure. For what it's worth, I don't ever hear Masons talking about Albert Pike. I only ever hear about Albert Pike from anti-Masons. Seriously, at least in this country, it's just a fraternity.

I think if people were to see the degree, the text of which can generally be found online (although it varies slightly from state to state), they would find it to be non-deistic and in fact, Christian. In the first degree, before anything begins, the candidate is asked, "in all trials, troubles, and difficulties through life, in whom do you place your trust?" If the candidate says anything but "in God", he is not to be initiated.

The initiation also features the message, "should you ever meet upon another member of the human family...in destitute circumstances, you should contribute to his relief as liberally as his needs require and your abilities permit"

It is also instructed that one generally divides the day into three equal parts: 8 hours for work, 8 hours for sleep/refreshment, and 8 for the service of God/others. Basically, unless you are asleep or at work, you should be serving God and others.

Psalm 133 is read during the initiation degree. Also, as I mentioned in a previous post, the Holy Bible is described as the great light in Masonry and the "inestimable gift of God to man".

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,739
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #146 on: February 13, 2012, 06:23:00 PM »
My brother (not Orthodox) joined the Freemasons and the Shriners, we tried to convince him not to but what can you do when he's married and on his own right? lol

He wanted something to belong to and the Masons & Shriners gave him that. Of course, not that I agree with it, but he's happy...

You can ask, why do women join Sororities in College? It isn't always about alcohol, in fact I think women join sororities more for the "sisterhood" aspect than alcohol, whereas men probably join fraternities more for the parties than the "brotherhood".

Heck my dad was a member of the Lion's Club (not masonic btw) for years. Its something for men to belong to.

Of course, this is all in the United States, it may be different in Europe.

...but, that's just it.

If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?  Why not seek the "brotherhood" with other men in the parish.  Go out for pizza together....work on the church roof together...talk about your wives together!

Same with women.

When I was growing up my mom told me to never swear an oath anywhere outside of the Church.

As much pressure as there was to join a sorority, I didn't.  I don't think I am any worse off for not having joined a sorority.  I still had connections, friends, and bonded with my fellow students.

I find all I can do, and more than I can handle, in my own church parish.  I don't need to look elsewhere.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline 88Devin12

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,182
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Denver
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #147 on: February 13, 2012, 06:27:08 PM »
My brother (not Orthodox) joined the Freemasons and the Shriners, we tried to convince him not to but what can you do when he's married and on his own right? lol

He wanted something to belong to and the Masons & Shriners gave him that. Of course, not that I agree with it, but he's happy...

You can ask, why do women join Sororities in College? It isn't always about alcohol, in fact I think women join sororities more for the "sisterhood" aspect than alcohol, whereas men probably join fraternities more for the parties than the "brotherhood".

Heck my dad was a member of the Lion's Club (not masonic btw) for years. Its something for men to belong to.

Of course, this is all in the United States, it may be different in Europe.

...but, that's just it.

If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?  Why not seek the "brotherhood" with other men in the parish.  Go out for pizza together....work on the church roof together...talk about your wives together!

Same with women.

When I was growing up my mom told me to never swear an oath anywhere outside of the Church.

As much pressure as there was to join a sorority, I didn't.  I don't think I am any worse off for not having joined a sorority.  I still had connections, friends, and bonded with my fellow students.

I find all I can do, and more than I can handle, in my own church parish.  I don't need to look elsewhere.



I guess there is a misunderstanding, I wasn't referring to Orthodox men and women, but rather men and women in general.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #148 on: February 13, 2012, 06:30:01 PM »
My brother (not Orthodox) joined the Freemasons and the Shriners, we tried to convince him not to but what can you do when he's married and on his own right? lol

He wanted something to belong to and the Masons & Shriners gave him that. Of course, not that I agree with it, but he's happy...

You can ask, why do women join Sororities in College? It isn't always about alcohol, in fact I think women join sororities more for the "sisterhood" aspect than alcohol, whereas men probably join fraternities more for the parties than the "brotherhood".

Heck my dad was a member of the Lion's Club (not masonic btw) for years. Its something for men to belong to.

Of course, this is all in the United States, it may be different in Europe.

...but, that's just it.

If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?  Why not seek the "brotherhood" with other men in the parish.  Go out for pizza together....work on the church roof together...talk about your wives together!

Same with women.

When I was growing up my mom told me to never swear an oath anywhere outside of the Church.

As much pressure as there was to join a sorority, I didn't.  I don't think I am any worse off for not having joined a sorority.  I still had connections, friends, and bonded with my fellow students.

I find all I can do, and more than I can handle, in my own church parish.  I don't need to look elsewhere.


You never had a special talent that could only be expressed outside of church? For instance, I play symphonic trombone. Try finding a church-based orchestra or wind ensemble in this town. I actually have to play in an orchestra at the local Catholic university to get time in with a nearby instrumental music group.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #149 on: February 13, 2012, 06:34:28 PM »
...but, that's just it.

If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?  Why not seek the "brotherhood" with other men in the parish.  Go out for pizza together....work on the church roof together...talk about your wives together!

Same with women.

When I was growing up my mom told me to never swear an oath anywhere outside of the Church.

As much pressure as there was to join a sorority, I didn't.  I don't think I am any worse off for not having joined a sorority.  I still had connections, friends, and bonded with my fellow students.

I find all I can do, and more than I can handle, in my own church parish.  I don't need to look elsewhere.

It has nothing do to with "must" seek fellowship elsewhere, but "may". I frankly find your attitude odd. Should I enjoy lunch out with coworkers? No, sorry, I do not seek fellowship outside the church. Go to the neighborhood barbeque? Sorry, I have no need for fellowship outside the church - the Pascha glendi is enough for me!

Much is made of swearing oaths. Ok, can an Orthodox Christian be a doctor, lawyer, soldier, or president of the United States? All of these jobs require an oath upon entry.

By the way, does your church administer this forum? I want to make sure you aren't having fellowship outside the church.

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,739
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #150 on: February 13, 2012, 06:53:42 PM »

You miss the point.

Nobody has to swear an oath to go out to lunch with a coworker, or play in a band.

...and yes, this is an Orthodox Forum....so, I enjoy the fellowship here....but, I didn't swear any oath of loyalty to the site or her administration.

...and yes, most of my "close" friends ARE Orthodox.  I'm not enemies with anyone, but, I seek fellowship with other Orthodox....simply because the word "fellowship" to me, is a "relationship" with people I have something in common.  To me, my faith is the most important thing...and therefore, this is the fellowship that I seek.

I'm sorry you find this so surprising and odd.

I guess I am odd.

While you accuse others of making too much of swearing oaths... perhaps you make too "little" of it.

I have taken only two kinds of "oaths" in my life - the first as a godparent in my responsibilities towards the child before God, and the second to uphold and do my best in the office I hold in my parish council.

They both brought tears to my eyes, because I realized the magnitude and the gravity of swearing to do something - before God Almighty.

I take oaths very seriously....and I wish more people did.


Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #151 on: February 13, 2012, 07:10:29 PM »

You miss the point.

Nobody has to swear an oath to go out to lunch with a coworker, or play in a band.

...and yes, this is an Orthodox Forum....so, I enjoy the fellowship here....but, I didn't swear any oath of loyalty to the site or her administration.

...and yes, most of my "close" friends ARE Orthodox.  I'm not enemies with anyone, but, I seek fellowship with other Orthodox....simply because the word "fellowship" to me, is a "relationship" with people I have something in common.  To me, my faith is the most important thing...and therefore, this is the fellowship that I seek.

I'm sorry you find this so surprising and odd.

I guess I am odd.

While you accuse others of making too much of swearing oaths... perhaps you make too "little" of it.

I have taken only two kinds of "oaths" in my life - the first as a godparent in my responsibilities towards the child before God, and the second to uphold and do my best in the office I hold in my parish council.

They both brought tears to my eyes, because I realized the magnitude and the gravity of swearing to do something - before God Almighty.

I take oaths very seriously....and I wish more people did.

Please see the text in bold. That is a shift from your current post. You previously expressed incredulity that anyone would seek fellowship outside the church. That is what I find odd. Now you have added in the condition "with oaths". That is quite a different proposition.

Why did you take either of these oaths? Why didn't you just "let your yes be your yes and your no be your no"?

Do you recite the Pledge of Allegiance? Have you ever signed a notarized document?

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,695
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #152 on: February 13, 2012, 07:13:06 PM »

You miss the point.

Nobody has to swear an oath to go out to lunch with a coworker, or play in a band.

...and yes, this is an Orthodox Forum....so, I enjoy the fellowship here....but, I didn't swear any oath of loyalty to the site or her administration.

...and yes, most of my "close" friends ARE Orthodox.  I'm not enemies with anyone, but, I seek fellowship with other Orthodox....simply because the word "fellowship" to me, is a "relationship" with people I have something in common.  To me, my faith is the most important thing...and therefore, this is the fellowship that I seek.

I'm sorry you find this so surprising and odd.

I guess I am odd.

While you accuse others of making too much of swearing oaths... perhaps you make too "little" of it.

I have taken only two kinds of "oaths" in my life - the first as a godparent in my responsibilities towards the child before God, and the second to uphold and do my best in the office I hold in my parish council.

They both brought tears to my eyes, because I realized the magnitude and the gravity of swearing to do something - before God Almighty.

I take oaths very seriously....and I wish more people did.

Please see the text in bold. That is a shift from your current post. You previously expressed incredulity that anyone would seek fellowship outside the church. That is what I find odd. Now you have added in the condition "with oaths". That is quite a different proposition.

Why did you take either of these oaths? Why didn't you just "let your yes be your yes and your no be your no"?

Do you recite the Pledge of Allegiance? Have you ever signed a notarized document?


Masons do take oaths, its a very well known and common practice.

There are many Christians who do NOT take oaths, can't serve in public office because they can't swear an oath of office, nor serve in juries based of their beliefs of not swearing oaths.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,739
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #153 on: February 13, 2012, 07:29:50 PM »

You miss the point.

Nobody has to swear an oath to go out to lunch with a coworker, or play in a band.

...and yes, this is an Orthodox Forum....so, I enjoy the fellowship here....but, I didn't swear any oath of loyalty to the site or her administration.

...and yes, most of my "close" friends ARE Orthodox.  I'm not enemies with anyone, but, I seek fellowship with other Orthodox....simply because the word "fellowship" to me, is a "relationship" with people I have something in common.  To me, my faith is the most important thing...and therefore, this is the fellowship that I seek.

I'm sorry you find this so surprising and odd.

I guess I am odd.

While you accuse others of making too much of swearing oaths... perhaps you make too "little" of it.

I have taken only two kinds of "oaths" in my life - the first as a godparent in my responsibilities towards the child before God, and the second to uphold and do my best in the office I hold in my parish council.

They both brought tears to my eyes, because I realized the magnitude and the gravity of swearing to do something - before God Almighty.

I take oaths very seriously....and I wish more people did.

Please see the text in bold. That is a shift from your current post. You previously expressed incredulity that anyone would seek fellowship outside the church. That is what I find odd. Now you have added in the condition "with oaths". That is quite a different proposition.

Why did you take either of these oaths? Why didn't you just "let your yes be your yes and your no be your no"?

Do you recite the Pledge of Allegiance? Have you ever signed a notarized document?


Some folks will hear, but, not hear....and will see and not see....and will only follow that which is convenient and suits their needs.

I'm not forcing anything on anyone, so, don't get so upset.  I was only stating my personal opinion on the matter.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #154 on: February 13, 2012, 07:38:18 PM »
Some folks will hear, but, not hear....and will see and not see....and will only follow that which is convenient and suits their needs.

I'm not forcing anything on anyone, so, don't get so upset.  I was only stating my personal opinion on the matter.

It has nothing to do with seeing or hearing or not. It has to do with your shifting your ground. Just several hours ago you asked, "If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?" That is a categorical question. There is no mention or even the implication of oaths. When I pressed you on this point, you responded, "Nobody has to swear an oath to go out to lunch with a coworker, or play in a band" and chided me for missing the point. Would you care to tell me what part of "If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?" says anything about oaths? Now who is following what is convenient?

I am clearly not the only person who read your post as written, as PeterTheAleut asked the question about playing in a band.

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,739
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #155 on: February 13, 2012, 10:49:49 PM »

Okay, oaths aside, I still hold to my statement....that you can find everything you want within the Church.

Granted we don't have "bands" in church, and that's not what YOU had mentioned when you said joining the masons is a path to fellowship, networking, etc.  You weren't worried about utilizing or expanding your talents. 

I believe these were your words (although you'll probably state that due to my lack of English skills I misinterpreted them)...

Speaking for myself, I have had the opportunity to participate in worthy charity work, develop public speaking and management skills, and make a few good friends.


....to which I say you can find all of the above in the Church - charity work, public speaking opportunities, management skills and great friends.

So, all I asked was why would you need to go elsewhere, if you have all these opportunities available in the Church....and if it's something "more" that is gained by becoming a Mason, I was wondering what that might be.

But, then again, there's the secrecy thing, so, I wouldn't want anyone to spill the beans.

I really don't care.  I was asking an honest question to see what it was that drew so many people in to it's snare...but, all I get back are folks trying to poke holes in my statement....and if that's the best you can do....just talk in circles.... so, be it.

After all, I was only concerned that people not endanger their souls unknowingly and without good cause.

...and what gets me...is that there aren't enough people at any church to do the work.  Nobody wants to be president, nobody wants to take on any responsibility....it's just too hard, and they don't have the time....and yet, they will gladly join some outside organization and happily volunteer their time, funds and talents.

Go figure.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #156 on: February 13, 2012, 11:32:34 PM »

Okay, oaths aside, I still hold to my statement....that you can find everything you want within the Church.

How do you know what I want? Can I find a judo dojo? Can I find a sushi bar? Can I find a Star Wars fan club? Can I find an alumni association from my university?

And, let us not brush aside that you moved the goalposts by adding the "oaths" condition. You also never addressed why the oaths you took were conscionable and why didn't you just "let your yes be your yes and your no be your no".

Quote
Granted we don't have "bands" in church, and that's not what YOU had mentioned when you said joining the masons is a path to fellowship, networking, etc.  You weren't worried about utilizing or expanding your talents. 

I believe these were your words (although you'll probably state that due to my lack of English skills I misinterpreted them)...

Speaking for myself, I have had the opportunity to participate in worthy charity work, develop public speaking and management skills, and make a few good friends.


I never said that was my reason for joining, though. I simply said what I have experienced since joining.

Quote
....to which I say you can find all of the above in the Church - charity work, public speaking opportunities, management skills and great friends.

So, all I asked was why would you need to go elsewhere, if you have all these opportunities available in the Church....and if it's something "more" that is gained by becoming a Mason, I was wondering what that might be.

But, then again, there's the secrecy thing, so, I wouldn't want anyone to spill the beans.

I think I have been pretty clear about the secrecy. It's the secret handshake. But since you are down on secrecy per se, please tell me how much money you make and your body mass index.

Quote
I really don't care.  I was asking an honest question to see what it was that drew so many people in to it's snare...but, all I get back are folks trying to poke holes in my statement....and if that's the best you can do....just talk in circles.... so, be it.

After all, I was only concerned that people not endanger their souls unknowingly and without good cause.

...and what gets me...is that there aren't enough people at any church to do the work.  Nobody wants to be president, nobody wants to take on any responsibility....it's just too hard, and they don't have the time....and yet, they will gladly join some outside organization and happily volunteer their time, funds and talents.

Go figure.

If you do not wish for holes to be poked into your arguments, I recommend that you make more substantial arguments. It is laudable to be concerned of endangered souls, but I don't believe you have supported the argument that doing charity work outside the church is damning. Should a Christian never participate in the local food bank, Rotary Club, or Habitat for Humanity? For example, I am a member of Rotary International. While we engage in many works of local community service, our flagship mission is to eradicate polio worldwide. What is your church doing to eradicate polio? Do you all go into the lab after liturgy and make vaccines to ship to Liberia? I am a Shriner. Does your church operate a hospital that provides free orthopedic and burn care to children under 18? (this is not a slight - I do not think that public health efforts are the mission of the church. The point is that it is not all things to all people.) The church and the Shriner hospital are both hospitals, but they treat different ailments.

And guess what? You asked an honest question and received a perfectly honest (and courteous) answer. When the answer was innocuous, then you started moving the goalposts. I frankly think you would have preferred a more sinister answer.

Please don't project your frustrations with your own church membership's apathy on me or my church. Your church's problems are not mine. You don't know me. You don't know the church I attend or its needs. I am unaware if my church has an office of president, but not being Orthodox, I cannot imagine that is would be open to me. When I convert, I would be happy to teach Sunday school or serve in any other fashion. However, given that I am not in the church, I limit my contributions to my checkbook. If you wish to tell me your church needs a Latin to teach catechism, I'll be on the next plane.

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,739
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #157 on: February 14, 2012, 12:02:03 AM »

I truly do hope that when you are able, that you will take an interest in all the positions and openings available to you within the Church.

I'm not sure why you are so defensive....I wasn't attacking you....just asking why people join the masons....and so many pages later, I still don't have an answer.

I guess folks just don't know why they join, or they wish to keep it a secret.  It's all good.

I wish you all the best.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 12:06:29 AM by LizaSymonenko »
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline TheMathematician

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,007
  • Formerly known as Montalo
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ACROD
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #158 on: February 14, 2012, 12:18:44 AM »

I truly do hope that when you are able, that you will take an interest in all the positions and openings available to you within the Church.

I'm not sure why you are so defensive....I wasn't attacking you....just asking why people join the masons....and so many pages later, I still don't have an answer.

I guess folks just don't know why they join, or they wish to keep it a secret.  It's all good.

I wish you all the best.

I am not a mason, and will never be, but i can theorize why people do.

All these networking opportunities in Church are great and all, and I have met many good people through my church and OCF, but they are different than the ones an orginztion like the Masons will provide.

The Masons would provide me a step up in being able to secure a job, expecially if the interviewer is a fellow Mason.

It is similar to being an Eagle Scout, which I am. My Eagle, already a few days past my one year anniversary of gaining rank, has already helped me in interviews, for in one of my job interviews, the person interviewing me was also an Eagle Scout. I was offered the job, but due to other things i ended up not working there.

Again, I am not a Mason, but those would be my motivations, were I to join. I hope this answers your question Liza, if you agree or not
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 12:19:00 AM by TheMathematician »

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,739
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #159 on: February 14, 2012, 12:30:32 AM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline TheMathematician

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,007
  • Formerly known as Montalo
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ACROD
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #160 on: February 14, 2012, 12:35:12 AM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

and i can understand that. If i were not an Eagle Scout, then the offer would be really tempting, but, by virture of my Eagle, there is nothing the Masons have to offer that I do not already have in the secular world.

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #161 on: February 14, 2012, 12:55:30 AM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

Offline TheMathematician

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,007
  • Formerly known as Montalo
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ACROD
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #162 on: February 14, 2012, 12:58:38 AM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #163 on: February 14, 2012, 01:06:55 AM »
I am not a mason, and will never be, but i can theorize why people do.

All these networking opportunities in Church are great and all, and I have met many good people through my church and OCF, but they are different than the ones an orginztion like the Masons will provide.

The Masons would provide me a step up in being able to secure a job, expecially if the interviewer is a fellow Mason.

It is similar to being an Eagle Scout, which I am. My Eagle, already a few days past my one year anniversary of gaining rank, has already helped me in interviews, for in one of my job interviews, the person interviewing me was also an Eagle Scout. I was offered the job, but due to other things i ended up not working there.

Again, I am not a Mason, but those would be my motivations, were I to join. I hope this answers your question Liza, if you agree or not


First, I really respect your Eagle Scout achievement. I regret that I did not advance that far in scouting. I am very happy that my son wanted to be a Tiger Cub, and I would be thrilled if he earned his Eagle Scout.

But, while some fringe benefits in the outside world may come with being an Eagle Scout, I am imagine that you did not enroll in scouting with such concerns in mind; you would have been too young to have such concerns in mind. Rather, I imagine you enrolled and stayed within scouting as an end to itself because you saw inherent value in being a Scout. In other words, you didn't join to "get something".

Of course, I do not expect Liza to understand why you might want to be a Scout because she wonders, "If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?" She also might be surprised to learn that there is such a thing as the Boy Scout Oath, and you might not want to mention that the Boy Scouts of America describes itself as an ecumenical organization. Is not God referred to as the "Great Scoutmaster of all Scouts"?

Now that I think about it, pretty much every objection I have heard applied to Masonry could be equally applied to the Boy Scouts.

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #164 on: February 14, 2012, 01:07:33 AM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 01:08:00 AM by Sauron »

Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,159
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #165 on: February 14, 2012, 01:09:05 AM »
The Eastern Star is the women's masonic order.
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #166 on: February 14, 2012, 01:19:24 AM »
The Eastern Star is the women's masonic order.

It is an appendant body. The women who are members of the Eastern Star are not Masons.

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,739
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #167 on: February 14, 2012, 01:26:03 AM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


 ...although, as a woman, I'm always using Mason Jars.  Go figure.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline TheMathematician

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,007
  • Formerly known as Montalo
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ACROD
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #168 on: February 14, 2012, 01:33:03 AM »
I am not a mason, and will never be, but i can theorize why people do.

All these networking opportunities in Church are great and all, and I have met many good people through my church and OCF, but they are different than the ones an orginztion like the Masons will provide.

The Masons would provide me a step up in being able to secure a job, expecially if the interviewer is a fellow Mason.

It is similar to being an Eagle Scout, which I am. My Eagle, already a few days past my one year anniversary of gaining rank, has already helped me in interviews, for in one of my job interviews, the person interviewing me was also an Eagle Scout. I was offered the job, but due to other things i ended up not working there.

Again, I am not a Mason, but those would be my motivations, were I to join. I hope this answers your question Liza, if you agree or not


First, I really respect your Eagle Scout achievement. I regret that I did not advance that far in scouting. I am very happy that my son wanted to be a Tiger Cub, and I would be thrilled if he earned his Eagle Scout.

But, while some fringe benefits in the outside world may come with being an Eagle Scout, I am imagine that you did not enroll in scouting with such concerns in mind; you would have been too young to have such concerns in mind. Rather, I imagine you enrolled and stayed within scouting as an end to itself because you saw inherent value in being a Scout. In other words, you didn't join to "get something".

Of course, I do not expect Liza to understand why you might want to be a Scout because she wonders, "If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?" She also might be surprised to learn that there is such a thing as the Boy Scout Oath, and you might not want to mention that the Boy Scouts of America describes itself as an ecumenical organization. Is not God referred to as the "Great Scoutmaster of all Scouts"?

Now that I think about it, pretty much every objection I have heard applied to Masonry could be equally applied to the Boy Scouts.


Is that why i enrolled, no not at all. And i do not disagree with anything that you say, but I was refering to myself RIGHT NOW why i would not be a mason(not yelling, just emphasis), because im an eagle. I am still enrolled in Scouting as an Assistant Scoutmaster (im 19), and dont plan on leaving, because of reasons you stated. Scouting is responsible for about 90% of who I am, and I am proud to say that.(and, just for the record, i grew up rcc, and am a catechumen now, so i couldnt have recieved that formation in the Chuch)

Offline TheMathematician

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,007
  • Formerly known as Montalo
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ACROD
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #169 on: February 14, 2012, 01:33:53 AM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #170 on: February 14, 2012, 01:42:05 AM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

No, I was just saying that women cannot be Masons, just as they cannot be Boy Scouts. Nothing else was intended. Would you have taken it as a cheap shot if I had said she can't be a Boy Scout?

Offline orthonorm

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,715
  • Ad Aluminum!
  • Faith: DSM 5
  • Jurisdiction: Apostle to the Church of ASD
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #171 on: February 14, 2012, 02:05:41 AM »
It is similar to being an Eagle Scout, which I am.

*Renting of clothes and gnashing of teeth*


Offline ironchapman

  • A bull of truth in a china shop of falsehoods.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 827
  • I see you.
  • Faith: Serious inquirer.
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #172 on: February 14, 2012, 02:52:50 AM »
Quote
First of all, what is with so many people having St. Patrick for their avatar?
As I said before, I deeply respect St. Patrick, but I am also passively protesting something that I'd rather not discuss in open conversation out of respect for the admins.

Quote
pike pushes for changing Lucifer bck to its original meaning and the the "god" of freemasonry brings light and therefore is Lucifer in the strictest sense going purely by the strict meaning
So why Lucifer? Why not Helios or Mithras?

Quote
Fourth, Morals and Dogma is not a Freemason hand book, but a Scottish rite hand book, but even then it doesnt speak for the whole of the scottish rite
But why would the Scottish Rite masons allow it to go on being published if they were against it?

I know that if a guy published something stating that the Lions Club worshipped the head of an actual lion, the ink would not dry on that publication before the Lions Club had something to say about it.

PP

I remember my friend telling me about a Bishop Lucifer of Caligari from the 4th century. Known for his passionate arguments against Arianism. Some consider him a saint in Catholicism (not sure about Orthodoxy), and there is at least one Church of San Lucifero. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_of_Cagliari

How the name came to be associated with Satan is by applying a passage from Isiah 14: 3-20, which was written about a Babylonian king, to the Devil. The term originally meant light bearer and was associated with the Morning Star (Venus). Some have pointed to Origen, St. Augustine, or Tertullian as the first to use it to mean the Devil.

The association of Lucifer/Satan to freemasonery derives from what is called the "Taxil Hoax", which is just that.

From The Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon:

Quote
Neither the attributes nor personification of Lucifer or Satan play any role in the beliefs or rituals of Freemasonry. The topic is only of interest insofar as anti-masonic attacks have accused Freemasonry of worshiping Lucifer. The confusion stems from such 19th century masonic authors as Albert Pike and Albert G. Mackey who have used the term "luciferian" in its classical or literary sense to refer to a search for knowledge. John Robinson notes "The emphasis here should be on intent. When Albert Pike and other Masonic scholars spoke over a century ago about the "Luciferian path," or the "energies of Lucifer," they were referring to the morning star, the light bearer, the search for light; the very antithesis of dark, satanic evil."

Also, from A Page about Freemasonry a quote from Leo Taxil, the man who originated the Satanic-Masonic connection:

Quote
"The public made me what I am, the arch-liar of the period, for when I first commenced to write against the Masons my object was amusement pure and simple. The crimes laid at their door were so grotesque, so impossible, so widely exaggerated, I thought everybody would see the joke and give me credit for originating a new line of humour. But my readers wouldn't have it so; they accepted my fables as gospel truth, and the more I lied for the purpose of showing that I lied, the more convinced became they that I was a paragon of veracity."

Also of interest:

A confession by Leo Taxil.

taxil may be dead, but his hoax lives on.

The Leo Taxil Hoax

Wikipedia's Taxil Hoax Article

And a word of advice to the people adhering to this hoax, if your website mentions the "Illuminati" or "New World Order" or attempts to ascribe conspiracies or Satanic meanings to all sorts of otherwise easily explainable things, it's probably not all that credible of a place.

Now, I'm not all that big a fan of the masons, but let's stick to facts, shall we?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 02:59:33 AM by ironchapman »
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." --Bertrand Russell

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #173 on: February 14, 2012, 08:23:40 AM »
How the name came to be associated with Satan is by applying a passage from Isiah 14: 3-20, which was written about a Babylonian king, to the Devil. The term originally meant light bearer and was associated with the Morning Star (Venus). Some have pointed to Origen, St. Augustine, or Tertullian as the first to use it to mean the Devil.

Absolutely correct. I was about to write about this. Thank you for doing so.

Quote
Now, I'm not all that big a fan of the masons, but let's stick to facts, shall we?

Now, why should we let facts stand in the way of holding whatever opinions we like?  ;)

Offline Sauron

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 844
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #174 on: February 14, 2012, 10:15:05 AM »
Apropos to this discussion, a friend just shared the following image with me.  ;D


Offline TheMathematician

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,007
  • Formerly known as Montalo
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ACROD
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #175 on: February 14, 2012, 10:55:10 AM »
It is similar to being an Eagle Scout, which I am.

*Renting of clothes and gnashing of teeth*



meaning the benefits, come on orthonorm

im not comparing the two, or saying Scouts are Masonic, just that the benefits are of the same vein

Offline orthonorm

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,715
  • Ad Aluminum!
  • Faith: DSM 5
  • Jurisdiction: Apostle to the Church of ASD
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #176 on: February 14, 2012, 03:07:04 PM »
It is similar to being an Eagle Scout, which I am.

*Renting of clothes and gnashing of teeth*



meaning the benefits, come on orthonorm

im not comparing the two, or saying Scouts are Masonic, just that the benefits are of the same vein

And I am saying you an Eagle Scout. Actually, I am screaming it at the sky.

Offline orthonorm

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,715
  • Ad Aluminum!
  • Faith: DSM 5
  • Jurisdiction: Apostle to the Church of ASD
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #177 on: February 14, 2012, 03:07:32 PM »
Apropos to this discussion, a friend just shared the following image with me.  ;D



Nice!

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,468
  • Faith: Serbian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of New Gracanica
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #178 on: February 14, 2012, 03:40:55 PM »
Apropos to this discussion, a friend just shared the following image with me.  ;D



Nice!

Masons must be a rather self-loathing lot.  Under "What I think I do" it has a guy drinking poison.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,017
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #179 on: February 14, 2012, 03:44:16 PM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

No, I was just saying that women cannot be Masons, just as they cannot be Boy Scouts. Nothing else was intended. Would you have taken it as a cheap shot if I had said she can't be a Boy Scout?


You have heard that in California (of course) the Boy Scouts are now admitting trans-gender girl-boys.