Author Topic: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons  (Read 64737 times)

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Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2012, 11:45:32 PM »

So, Sauron....what about the title "Worshipful Master"?

Shouldn't worship be reserved for God alone?

...or is that just a mere title, as well....just like sticking a needle in one's eye?



(KJV) Matthew 23:

 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

We should call NO man "Master".


What do you say to Protestants who say, "call no man father"?

1 Tim 6:1-2 "All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves."

This is an instruction to Christian slaves. Why does Timothy call other men "masters"?

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2012, 11:46:56 PM »
Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

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Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #92 on: February 11, 2012, 11:47:32 PM »

I am afraid that here you have just shown your unfamiliarity with the English language as it is used in the rest of the English-speaking world.


Please forgive my apparent ignorance and lack of mastery of the English language!

.....plllleeease.

You are forgiven. What a blessing to be given the opportunity to educate you on our common language!

Offline Aram

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #93 on: February 11, 2012, 11:49:03 PM »

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

I tend to believe what I know to be true from a lifetime in the Scouting movement, both as a youth and an adult, not some propaganda website from people who have no clue how the program works.  It's clear, based on your posts on this topic, you don't have a clue, either.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #94 on: February 11, 2012, 11:50:36 PM »

Deacon Lance, my brother, just read the links.  One talks about the scouts foundation in Masonry.  Yes I was a scout though unfortunately.  There were many ceremonies (blue and gold) and candle lit ceremonies.  The God spoken about in Masonry is meant to depict the scouts beliefs.  This is what lower level masons do as well.   
You keep talking about the Blue and Gold Banquet.

There is NO standard ceremony for the Blue and Gold Banquet, the annual springtime dinner where Cub Scouts get awards from their Pack, maybe watch a magic show or something of the like, and celebrate all they've learned that year.  There is nothing Masonic about it.  Every banquet is different, as each pack has the ability to structure it to their needs, facilities, time constraints, youth members, etc.  And I fail to see how a "candlelit ceremony" is exclusively Masonic.

I grew up in Scouting from Tiger Cubs through my 18th birthday.  I am an Eagle Scout.  As an adult, I'm a scout leader.  Every week, I'm working with young people within the Scouting program.  You are gravely mistaken, and I wish you would refrain from further commentary about Scouting, as it's clear you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

I'm thinking this character has read way too much from that Old Believer website, and his desire for real truth has become skewed.

My friend (yeshuaism), I would advise you back away from the Old Believer website. I've been in the company of someone similar to Old Believers and it started to effect me as well, thankfully I got away from it and looking back, I now see how insane the ideas this person had were.
Old Believers have their time and place.  They believe what they believe, and for many of them, it's a way of life they have lived for generations.  There's no reason to criticize them or claim that they shouldn't be taken seriously.  They simply should be understood in context.  No need to call them insane.

Should we say the same for Arians, Nestorians, Montanists, Donatists, Marcionites, Iconoclasts, Chiliasts, Ethnophyletists etc...?

I'm sick and tired of this liberal idea of "there are no barbaric peoples, just different people of different cultures." Its simply not true... The second definition of insanity is "extreme foolishness or irrationality" which I would classify Old Believers as. They certainly aren't mentally ill or "mad", but their ideas are very foolish and irrational.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2012, 11:54:44 PM »
Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?



I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 11:56:22 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2012, 11:56:08 PM »

So, Sauron....what about the title "Worshipful Master"?

Shouldn't worship be reserved for God alone?

...or is that just a mere title, as well....just like sticking a needle in one's eye?



(KJV) Matthew 23:

 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

We should call NO man "Master".


What do you say to Protestants who say, "call no man father"?

1 Tim 6:1-2 "All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves."

This is an instruction to Christian slaves. Why does Timothy call other men "masters"?


This is a different topic and a point I get into trouble a lot for.  As far as this quote goes Jesus was clearly speaking of people in a religious office.
This is why he began with Rabbi.  Then went to father.  Then went to Master.   But this digresses from this thread, and is a topic I have often had issues with here on the forum, even as directed towards the EO church (and RC church as well).  I've probably even made myself disliked on this subject by many unfortunately.

However, I don't also claim that Timothy was infallible.  I don't know the answer to your question, or why Timothy wrote that unless it only applies towards people of a religious nature.  What I know is that our Lord and savior Jesus Christ told us NOT TO.

However, this issues strays far from the intent of the thread, which is some of the EO clergy being Masons.  I think universally most EO would not appove of masonry at all, especially if they knew what its own texts say.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2012, 11:59:40 PM »
I would take anything from a website which blasts the Boyscouts as being "masonic" with a grain of salt, and perhaps a bottle or five of absinthe.

Dude, that will kill you, bro.  Kill you dead.



As for the OP, I'm not sure masonry is something Orthodox folks should get into.  My Priest is very opposed to it.  That's enough for me. 

The funny thing is, the Boy Scouts were founded in Masonry, and their ceremonies mimic masonic ceremonies and the "prayers" are to "universal gods", but this is besides the point.

No, no, and no.  Get your facts straight.

The problem with just saying no and telling somebody to get their facts straight doesn't prove a point.  I quoted stuff from the boy scouts saying they were originated in masons.  However, this is BESIDES the point.  It is about Orthodox or rather "high ranking" orthodox involved in Masonry.

Lord Baden-Powell in fact refused to become a Mason for fear of alienating Roman Catholics.

http://pinetreeweb.com/bp-freemason-france.htm

http://pinetreeweb.com/bp-freemason-england.htm
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #98 on: February 12, 2012, 12:00:06 AM »

I am afraid that here you have just shown your unfamiliarity with the English language as it is used in the rest of the English-speaking world.


Please forgive my apparent ignorance and lack of mastery of the English language!

.....plllleeease.

You are forgiven. What a blessing to be given the opportunity to educate you on our common language!


Well, you apparently have mastered it better than I.   ;)

I still disagree with your reasons for joining...but, you will always find some reason to assuage your commitment to them....as it probably has opened doors to your career for you....and made you a more "important" man.

Good luck to you.


Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #99 on: February 12, 2012, 12:02:21 AM »
Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?



I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Devin, I'm not against you.

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

These ideas do not "originate from the internet".   Many EO Christians & other Christians have been against freemasonry for a LONG time.   The ideas were more or less put on the internet.
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Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #100 on: February 12, 2012, 12:04:27 AM »

I am afraid that here you have just shown your unfamiliarity with the English language as it is used in the rest of the English-speaking world.


Please forgive my apparent ignorance and lack of mastery of the English language!

.....plllleeease.

You are forgiven. What a blessing to be given the opportunity to educate you on our common language!


Well, you apparently have mastered it better than I.   ;)

I still disagree with your reasons for joining...but, you will always find some reason to assuage your commitment to them....as it probably has opened doors to your career for you....and made you a more "important" man.

Good luck to you.

I am sorry that you haven't been keeping up, but you might have noticed in my first post that I intend to tell my priest about my membership before converting and if he says I should demit, I will.

I do not believe I ever stated my reasons for joining, so what ever reasons you are disagreeing with are ones that you made up in your head. And, it really hasn't done anything for my career. Mine is a small rural lodge with a membership that is mostly retired (and half of them are snowbirds!)

God thinks we are all important. My wife and children think I am important. That is enough for me.

Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #101 on: February 12, 2012, 12:06:45 AM »
My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

This is news to me. I have been a Mason for years and am even master of a lodge, and I have never read it (other than what you have quoted here).

And, let us dispense with "high ranking mason". The highest degree in Masonry is the third degree. That's it, and it is possible to reach it in one day. Some high degree!

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #102 on: February 12, 2012, 12:08:56 AM »
Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?



I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Devin, I'm not against you.

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

These ideas do not "originate from the internet".   Many EO Christians & other Christians have been against freemasonry for a LONG time.   The ideas were more or less put on the internet.

Oh I'm not doubting Freemasonry is wrong. But the ideas many Orthodox have of Freemasonry are wrong... While it doesn't relate to freemasonry, there is a book about two Jehovah's Witnesses who became Orthodox (one was Orthodox, converted, then came back) and they talk about the very incorrect views most Orthodox had about Jehovah's Witnesses and their practices.

You cannot take European Freemasonry and assume it is the same as American Freemasonry, just as you can't take European Catholicism and assume American Catholicism is the same.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #103 on: February 12, 2012, 12:12:17 AM »

I am sorry that you haven't been keeping up, but you might have noticed in my first post that I intend to tell my priest about my membership before converting and if he says I should demit, I will.


I'm glad to hear it.


I do not believe I ever stated my reasons for joining, so what ever reasons you are disagreeing with are ones that you made up in your head.


I wasn't "making up" anything in my head, I was referring to your statement:


I know so much about Masonry because I I have been a member for five years. It makes no promises to anyone anymore than the Rotary club makes promises. As to the benefits, like any association, one gets out of it what one puts into it (I think the same can be said of the Church). If one simply pays dues once a year, probably not much. Speaking for myself, I have had the opportunity to participate in worthy charity work, develop public speaking and management skills, and make a few good friends.



God thinks we are all important. My wife and children think I am important. That is enough for me.


THAT is an excellent statement.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #104 on: February 12, 2012, 12:12:40 AM »
I would take anything from a website which blasts the Boyscouts as being "masonic" with a grain of salt, and perhaps a bottle or five of absinthe.

Dude, that will kill you, bro.  Kill you dead.



As for the OP, I'm not sure masonry is something Orthodox folks should get into.  My Priest is very opposed to it.  That's enough for me. 

The funny thing is, the Boy Scouts were founded in Masonry, and their ceremonies mimic masonic ceremonies and the "prayers" are to "universal gods", but this is besides the point.

No, no, and no.  Get your facts straight.

The problem with just saying no and telling somebody to get their facts straight doesn't prove a point.  I quoted stuff from the boy scouts saying they were originated in masons.  However, this is BESIDES the point.  It is about Orthodox or rather "high ranking" orthodox involved in Masonry.

Lord Baden-Powell in fact refused to become a Mason for fear of alienating Roman Catholics.

http://pinetreeweb.com/bp-freemason-france.htm

http://pinetreeweb.com/bp-freemason-england.htm

Even though there are many other sites claiming him to be, along with masonic lodges named after him, for the sake of argument, I'd rather stop talking about the scouts.  I was a scout and we weren't swearing blood oaths in the scouts.   The arguments exist in the ceremonies that people make.  However, I'm not the one who brought up the scouts... I see masonic ties myself, but its not important to the context of the thread, nor do I believe that the boys scouts involved in scouting are all damned to hell or anything. LOL.  

I'm concerned and confused by the EO Christians involved in it.  The clergy who have their duties and dedication of their lives to God would seem to be living a double life.  On one hand dedicated to God, and on the other Lucifer.   Those are my concerns.  This in recognition that MANY EO Christians are avidly against Freemasonry and it has been condemned by many bishops and Synods.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #105 on: February 12, 2012, 12:17:31 AM »
Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.
Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic. ::)

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

Lord Baden-Powell was not a Mason.  The sites you link to are simply lying.  You say you believe Boy Scouts have Masonic ceremonies.  I ask why is that?  Have you been a Boy Scout?  Have you attened any of their ceremonies?  If not what do you base your beliefs on?  

That said Masonic Lodges may sponsor packs and troops, but so may Mormons, Buddhists, and  Muslims.  Scouting is a program of citizenship and outdoorsmanship.  Scouts are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same.

Deacon Lance, my brother, just read the links.  One talks about the scouts foundation in Masonry.  Yes I was a scout though unfortunately.  There were many ceremonies (blue and gold) and candle lit ceremonies.  The God spoken about in Masonry is meant to depict the scouts beliefs.  This is what lower level masons do as well.   

HOWEVER, the Boy Scouts are NOT important to this thread.   High ranking Orthodox clergy are listed.

Your first link is by a Fundametalist minister with a lot of kooky conjecture about Brownies.

Your second link I already acknowledged.  Yes, Lodges can sponsor packs/troops.  Churches and Organizations also give awards to Scouts and Scouters.  The Masons do as does the AFL-CIO as well as many Churches including the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Not sure what you are trying to point out in the third link.  

Again what in the ceremonies is Masonic related?  I don't ask out of ignorance.  I am an Eagle Scout, brotherhood member of the Order of the Arrow, Assistant Scoutmaster, and Chairman of the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh Committee on Scouting.  I have never seen anything Masonic related in any ceremony and has been pointed out there is no mandated ceremony for anything other than the Order of the Arrow.  Were some of the founders Masons? Yes.  Is Masonry a supporter of Scouting? Yes.  Was Lord B-P a Mason? No.  Is Scouting Masonic? No.

No Church is more anti-Mason than the Catholic Church.  Scouting was carefully studied before the Catholic Church endorsed Scouting and I am sure the Orthodox Church did the same before it endorsed Scouting.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #106 on: February 12, 2012, 12:23:03 AM »
Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?



I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Devin, I'm not against you.

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

These ideas do not "originate from the internet".   Many EO Christians & other Christians have been against freemasonry for a LONG time.   The ideas were more or less put on the internet.

Oh I'm not doubting Freemasonry is wrong. But the ideas many Orthodox have of Freemasonry are wrong... While it doesn't relate to freemasonry, there is a book about two Jehovah's Witnesses who became Orthodox (one was Orthodox, converted, then came back) and they talk about the very incorrect views most Orthodox had about Jehovah's Witnesses and their practices.

You cannot take European Freemasonry and assume it is the same as American Freemasonry, just as you can't take European Catholicism and assume American Catholicism is the same.

I agree with you that viewpoints & the lens people look through can be warped.  The book of Morals and Dogma was from an American however.  Not only do EO Christians see it that way, but many protestants, Atheists, and Muslims see Freemasonry in the same way.  

However, I don't believe that the common lodge in a city has a bunch of ranting raving devil worshippers running around.  I believe most of the guys feel like they are involved in a "good ol boy" type of club.   Most have no idea of what the organization is really about and/or just want some buddies to hang around with and/or do business with.     I can't call this harmless though, as they should not be involved in this type of organization at all on a spiritual level.

As speaking in terms of EO Christians, most I've known are against freemasonry.  The concern expressed is when there is high ranking clergy & bishops involved in it.  Their first priority should be their flock.  In consideration of the masonic books, symbols (such as the Eastern Star/Pentagram), and the oaths taken alone, it is hard to believe Orthodox Christians would be involved in this.

For the most part I believe the EO body of Christians have taken a good position against it, but it surprises me that these clergy are this way.

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #107 on: February 12, 2012, 12:28:06 AM »
As can be read to the left, I have been an Orthodox inquirer for about a year. I am also a Freemason and in fact, am the master of my lodge this year. I do intend to disclose my membership to my priest, and if he should say that I must demit in order to join the church, I would obey.

Why?  You don't obey the Catholic Church of which you currently claim membership.

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DECLARATION ON MASONIC ASSOCIATIONS

It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church’s decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous Code.

This Sacred Congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance in due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.

Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.
It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the Declaration of this Sacred Congregation issued on 17 February 1981 (cf. AAS 73 1981 pp. 240-241; English language edition of L’Osservatore Romano, 9 March 1981).

In an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this Declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this Sacred Congregation.

Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 26 November 1983.


Joseph Card. RATZINGER
Prefect

+ Fr. Jerome Hamer, O.P.
Titular Archbishop of Lorium
Secretary


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Maria

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #108 on: February 12, 2012, 12:31:11 AM »

I am afraid that here you have just shown your unfamiliarity with the English language as it is used in the rest of the English-speaking world.


Please forgive my apparent ignorance and lack of mastery of the English language!

.....plllleeease.

You are forgiven. What a blessing to be given the opportunity to educate you on our common language!


Well, you apparently have mastered it better than I.   ;)

I still disagree with your reasons for joining...but, you will always find some reason to assuage your commitment to them....as it probably has opened doors to your career for you....and made you a more "important" man.

Good luck to you.




To lighten this topic on the importance of "important"

There is a joke in the South. Some folks in the South cannot say the liquid /r/ but speak more like the British.
Therefore the words "important" and "impotent" are often confused.

This old worker went to see his doctor.
Afterwards, he went to an expensive store and bought a suit.
When he came home, his wife asked him why he was wearing such an expensive suit.
He responded: The doctor told me that I was very important [pronounced: /impotent/].

And here is a true story:

This hieromonk was visiting parishes with his ROCOR bishop.
They went to visit one parish that was dying.
While attending the Divine Liturgy, it seemed so cold, so distant.
Then the hieromonk noticed that the ring worn by the pastor of that parish was a masonic ring.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #109 on: February 12, 2012, 12:32:51 AM »
Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.
Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic. ::)

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

Lord Baden-Powell was not a Mason.  The sites you link to are simply lying.  You say you believe Boy Scouts have Masonic ceremonies.  I ask why is that?  Have you been a Boy Scout?  Have you attened any of their ceremonies?  If not what do you base your beliefs on?  

That said Masonic Lodges may sponsor packs and troops, but so may Mormons, Buddhists, and  Muslims.  Scouting is a program of citizenship and outdoorsmanship.  Scouts are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same.

Deacon Lance, my brother, just read the links.  One talks about the scouts foundation in Masonry.  Yes I was a scout though unfortunately.  There were many ceremonies (blue and gold) and candle lit ceremonies.  The God spoken about in Masonry is meant to depict the scouts beliefs.  This is what lower level masons do as well.  

HOWEVER, the Boy Scouts are NOT important to this thread.   High ranking Orthodox clergy are listed.

Your first link is by a Fundametalist minister with a lot of kooky conjecture about Brownies.

Your second link I already acknowledged.  Yes, Lodges can sponsor packs/troops.  Churches and Organizations also give awards to Scouts and Scouters.  The Masons do as does the AFL-CIO as well as many Churches including the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Not sure what you are trying to point out in the third link.  

Again what in the ceremonies is Masonic related?  I don't ask out of ignorance.  I am an Eagle Scout, brotherhood member of the Order of the Arrow, Assistant Scoutmaster, and Chairman of the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh Committee on Scouting.  I have never seen anything Masonic related in any ceremony and has been pointed out there is no mandated ceremony for anything other than the Order of the Arrow.  Were some of the founders Masons? Yes.  Is Masonry a supporter of Scouting? Yes.  Was Lord B-P a Mason? No.  Is Scouting Masonic? No.

No Church is more anti-Mason than the Catholic Church.  Scouting was carefully studied before the Catholic Church endorsed Scouting and I am sure the Orthodox Church did the same before it endorsed Scouting.

Well the first link is the most compelling.  It's amazing how we can shun off things that are hard to hear.  Immediately he's a fundamentalist who is kooky.  I mean no lodges named after the founder... http://www.bplodge929.com/

But you know what, it doesn't matter though in context of the thread.  I don't see little boy scouts running around as devil worshippers.  Scouting was not the point at all.  I think there are some masonic elements in boy/girl scouting, but I'm getting the rap for what somebody else brought up.  There's masonic things in many things we do & use (dollar bill?), it doesn't mean we all approve or can avoid.

This is a far cry different issue than EO clergy who should "know better" directly joining the Masons.   Boy & Girls scouts are not masons themselves.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:34:59 AM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #110 on: February 12, 2012, 12:34:43 AM »
Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?



I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Devin, I'm not against you.

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

These ideas do not "originate from the internet".   Many EO Christians & other Christians have been against freemasonry for a LONG time.   The ideas were more or less put on the internet.

Oh I'm not doubting Freemasonry is wrong. But the ideas many Orthodox have of Freemasonry are wrong... While it doesn't relate to freemasonry, there is a book about two Jehovah's Witnesses who became Orthodox (one was Orthodox, converted, then came back) and they talk about the very incorrect views most Orthodox had about Jehovah's Witnesses and their practices.

You cannot take European Freemasonry and assume it is the same as American Freemasonry, just as you can't take European Catholicism and assume American Catholicism is the same.

I agree with you that viewpoints & the lens people look through can be warped.  The book of Morals and Dogma was from an American however.  Not only do EO Christians see it that way, but many protestants, Atheists, and Muslims see Freemasonry in the same way.  

However, I don't believe that the common lodge in a city has a bunch of ranting raving devil worshippers running around.  I believe most of the guys feel like they are involved in a "good ol boy" type of club.   Most have no idea of what the organization is really about and/or just want some buddies to hang around with and/or do business with.     I can't call this harmless though, as they should not be involved in this type of organization at all on a spiritual level.

As speaking in terms of EO Christians, most I've known are against freemasonry.  The concern expressed is when there is high ranking clergy & bishops involved in it.  Their first priority should be their flock.  In consideration of the masonic books, symbols (such as the Eastern Star/Pentagram), and the oaths taken alone, it is hard to believe Orthodox Christians would be involved in this.

For the most part I believe the EO body of Christians have taken a good position against it, but it surprises me that these clergy are this way.

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

So if I built a city in the pattern of a Christian cross intentionally, does that mean I plan world domination? Are you serious? What is people's obsession with bullcrap like masons inserting masonic elements into their urban designs and architecture? It doesn't indicate a desire for world domination at all. I would insert Orthodoxy into my architecture and urban design, but that doesn't mean we are all bend on world domination.

Offline Maria

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #111 on: February 12, 2012, 12:35:08 AM »
Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.
Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic. ::)

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

Lord Baden-Powell was not a Mason.  The sites you link to are simply lying.  You say you believe Boy Scouts have Masonic ceremonies.  I ask why is that?  Have you been a Boy Scout?  Have you attened any of their ceremonies?  If not what do you base your beliefs on?  

That said Masonic Lodges may sponsor packs and troops, but so may Mormons, Buddhists, and  Muslims.  Scouting is a program of citizenship and outdoorsmanship.  Scouts are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same.

Deacon Lance, my brother, just read the links.  One talks about the scouts foundation in Masonry.  Yes I was a scout though unfortunately.  There were many ceremonies (blue and gold) and candle lit ceremonies.  The God spoken about in Masonry is meant to depict the scouts beliefs.  This is what lower level masons do as well.   

HOWEVER, the Boy Scouts are NOT important to this thread.   High ranking Orthodox clergy are listed.

Your first link is by a Fundametalist minister with a lot of kooky conjecture about Brownies.

Your second link I already acknowledged.  Yes, Lodges can sponsor packs/troops.  Churches and Organizations also give awards to Scouts and Scouters.  The Masons do as does the AFL-CIO as well as many Churches including the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Not sure what you are trying to point out in the third link.  

Again what in the ceremonies is Masonic related?  I don't ask out of ignorance.  I am an Eagle Scout, brotherhood member of the Order of the Arrow, Assistant Scoutmaster, and Chairman of the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh Committee on Scouting.  I have never seen anything Masonic related in any ceremony and has been pointed out there is no mandated ceremony for anything other than the Order of the Arrow.  Were some of the founders Masons? Yes.  Is Masonry a supporter of Scouting? Yes.  Was Lord B-P a Mason? No.  Is Scouting Masonic? No.

No Church is more anti-Mason than the Catholic Church.  Scouting was carefully studied before the Catholic Church endorsed Scouting and I am sure the Orthodox Church did the same before it endorsed Scouting.

Well the first link is the most compelling.  It's amazing how we can shun off things that are hard to hear.  Immediately he's a fundamentalist who is kooky.  I mean no lodges named after the founder... http://www.bplodge929.com/

But you know what, it doesn't matter though in context of the thread.  I don't see little boy scouts running around as devil worshippers.  Scouting was not the point at all.  I think there are some masonic elements in boy/girl scouting, but I'm getting the rap for what somebody else brought up.  There's masonic things in many things we do & use (dollar bill?), it doesn't mean we all approve or can avoid.

This is a far cry different issue than EO clergy who should "know better" directly joining the Masons.


Yes, not just clergy, but none less than the Ecumenical Patriarch have been freemasons with masonic funerals to boot.
Lord have mercy.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #112 on: February 12, 2012, 12:44:33 AM »
Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?



I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Devin, I'm not against you.

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

These ideas do not "originate from the internet".   Many EO Christians & other Christians have been against freemasonry for a LONG time.   The ideas were more or less put on the internet.

Oh I'm not doubting Freemasonry is wrong. But the ideas many Orthodox have of Freemasonry are wrong... While it doesn't relate to freemasonry, there is a book about two Jehovah's Witnesses who became Orthodox (one was Orthodox, converted, then came back) and they talk about the very incorrect views most Orthodox had about Jehovah's Witnesses and their practices.

You cannot take European Freemasonry and assume it is the same as American Freemasonry, just as you can't take European Catholicism and assume American Catholicism is the same.

I agree with you that viewpoints & the lens people look through can be warped.  The book of Morals and Dogma was from an American however.  Not only do EO Christians see it that way, but many protestants, Atheists, and Muslims see Freemasonry in the same way.  

However, I don't believe that the common lodge in a city has a bunch of ranting raving devil worshippers running around.  I believe most of the guys feel like they are involved in a "good ol boy" type of club.   Most have no idea of what the organization is really about and/or just want some buddies to hang around with and/or do business with.     I can't call this harmless though, as they should not be involved in this type of organization at all on a spiritual level.

As speaking in terms of EO Christians, most I've known are against freemasonry.  The concern expressed is when there is high ranking clergy & bishops involved in it.  Their first priority should be their flock.  In consideration of the masonic books, symbols (such as the Eastern Star/Pentagram), and the oaths taken alone, it is hard to believe Orthodox Christians would be involved in this.

For the most part I believe the EO body of Christians have taken a good position against it, but it surprises me that these clergy are this way.

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

So if I built a city in the pattern of a Christian cross intentionally, does that mean I plan world domination? Are you serious? What is people's obsession with bullcrap like masons inserting masonic elements into their urban designs and architecture? It doesn't indicate a desire for world domination at all. I would insert Orthodoxy into my architecture and urban design, but that doesn't mean we are all bend on world domination.

Well the eastern star roads (about 4-5 square miles big) (masonic) were built with our taxes paid with masonic symbol dollars...   I think there is some truth behind it.  As you said in analogy "I would insert Orthodoxy into MY architecture and urban design...." as you put yourself in a mason's shoes.   YOUR architecture?  (Freudian slip?) The streets do not belong to them.  They are ours.   Anyway, world domination is not the issue and despite if I believe there is some truth behind it - it is my opinion. 

I wish the thread would go back to the EO clergy involved and the expansion of ideas of either convincing, outcasting, or informing clergy involved in freemasonry of their errs.   World domination & scouting just digress...
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #113 on: February 12, 2012, 12:46:48 AM »
Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.
Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic. ::)

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

Lord Baden-Powell was not a Mason.  The sites you link to are simply lying.  You say you believe Boy Scouts have Masonic ceremonies.  I ask why is that?  Have you been a Boy Scout?  Have you attened any of their ceremonies?  If not what do you base your beliefs on?  

That said Masonic Lodges may sponsor packs and troops, but so may Mormons, Buddhists, and  Muslims.  Scouting is a program of citizenship and outdoorsmanship.  Scouts are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same.

Deacon Lance, my brother, just read the links.  One talks about the scouts foundation in Masonry.  Yes I was a scout though unfortunately.  There were many ceremonies (blue and gold) and candle lit ceremonies.  The God spoken about in Masonry is meant to depict the scouts beliefs.  This is what lower level masons do as well.   

HOWEVER, the Boy Scouts are NOT important to this thread.   High ranking Orthodox clergy are listed.

Your first link is by a Fundametalist minister with a lot of kooky conjecture about Brownies.

Your second link I already acknowledged.  Yes, Lodges can sponsor packs/troops.  Churches and Organizations also give awards to Scouts and Scouters.  The Masons do as does the AFL-CIO as well as many Churches including the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Not sure what you are trying to point out in the third link.  

Again what in the ceremonies is Masonic related?  I don't ask out of ignorance.  I am an Eagle Scout, brotherhood member of the Order of the Arrow, Assistant Scoutmaster, and Chairman of the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh Committee on Scouting.  I have never seen anything Masonic related in any ceremony and has been pointed out there is no mandated ceremony for anything other than the Order of the Arrow.  Were some of the founders Masons? Yes.  Is Masonry a supporter of Scouting? Yes.  Was Lord B-P a Mason? No.  Is Scouting Masonic? No.

No Church is more anti-Mason than the Catholic Church.  Scouting was carefully studied before the Catholic Church endorsed Scouting and I am sure the Orthodox Church did the same before it endorsed Scouting.

Well the first link is the most compelling.  It's amazing how we can shun off things that are hard to hear.  Immediately he's a fundamentalist who is kooky.  I mean no lodges named after the founder... http://www.bplodge929.com/

But you know what, it doesn't matter though in context of the thread.  I don't see little boy scouts running around as devil worshippers.  Scouting was not the point at all.  I think there are some masonic elements in boy/girl scouting, but I'm getting the rap for what somebody else brought up.  There's masonic things in many things we do & use (dollar bill?), it doesn't mean we all approve or can avoid.

This is a far cry different issue than EO clergy who should "know better" directly joining the Masons.


Yes, not just clergy, but none less than the Ecumenical Patriarch have been freemasons with masonic funerals to boot.
Lord have mercy.

I have to admit that the Ecumenical Patriarch or any other bishops involved have me the most concerned.   I'm curious what their rationale was for joining and hoping that the masonic influence could not have brought in "bad threads" into the "church cloth".
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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #114 on: February 12, 2012, 12:55:23 AM »

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

...that's just freaky!

Must simply be a coincidence...don't you think?
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #115 on: February 12, 2012, 01:20:17 AM »

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

...that's just freaky!

Must simply be a coincidence...don't you think?

No, the planner for Washington D.C. was a French Freemason. Washington D.C. was planned out way back in in the last 1700s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Enfant_Plan
It was a popular concept for the day, where you would create main avenues between major plazas, monuments, etc... The same was done in Paris, where they destroyed many blocks to create main avenues in geometric patterns radiating around the city.

So its probably the product of planning and layout of streets, and could very well have been intentional considering the masonic connections between the President and Planner. (Washington and L'Enfant, though L'Enfant didn't go high into masonry)

People take something as simple as that and try to make it into something more than it is. Sure, it probably has masonic significance and connections, but that doesn't symbolize world domination at all.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 01:21:29 AM by 88Devin12 »

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #116 on: February 12, 2012, 06:25:12 PM »
Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?



I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Devin, I'm not against you.

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

These ideas do not "originate from the internet".   Many EO Christians & other Christians have been against freemasonry for a LONG time.   The ideas were more or less put on the internet.

I honestly do not understand where you are getting all of your anti-mason information.  Sauron has shown no ill-will towards anyone here in this thread.  He is being respectful.  Obtaining information on youtube and wikipedia is academically akin to learning from walls of a public bathroom. 

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #117 on: February 13, 2012, 11:06:04 AM »
Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?



I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Ehm, it's in the BOOK itself.  Lucifer is called God.  I have the book right here on my shelf with a sticky note in it.   Page 321 & 324.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #118 on: February 13, 2012, 11:07:18 AM »
Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?



I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Devin, I'm not against you.

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

These ideas do not "originate from the internet".   Many EO Christians & other Christians have been against freemasonry for a LONG time.   The ideas were more or less put on the internet.

I honestly do not understand where you are getting all of your anti-mason information.  Sauron has shown no ill-will towards anyone here in this thread.  He is being respectful.  Obtaining information on youtube and wikipedia is academically akin to learning from walls of a public bathroom. 


I'm being respectful towards him too. :)

It's not just information on youtube and wikipedia.  The Masonic book "Morals and Dogma" calls Lucifer God.   I mean it's pretty direct.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #119 on: February 13, 2012, 11:09:29 AM »

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

...that's just freaky!

Must simply be a coincidence...don't you think?

It is freaky!

When I saw that for the first time my life was never the same again.   Here it is, probably about 4-5 square mile pentagram (Eastern Star).  The bottom tip of the star is exactly where the white house is.

As in the movie Bill and Ted's excellent adventure says "Strange things are at foot at the Circle K".   That's exactly what I thought when I saw it.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #120 on: February 13, 2012, 11:17:42 AM »

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

...that's just freaky!

Must simply be a coincidence...don't you think?

No, the planner for Washington D.C. was a French Freemason. Washington D.C. was planned out way back in in the last 1700s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Enfant_Plan
It was a popular concept for the day, where you would create main avenues between major plazas, monuments, etc... The same was done in Paris, where they destroyed many blocks to create main avenues in geometric patterns radiating around the city.

So its probably the product of planning and layout of streets, and could very well have been intentional considering the masonic connections between the President and Planner. (Washington and L'Enfant, though L'Enfant didn't go high into masonry)

People take something as simple as that and try to make it into something more than it is. Sure, it probably has masonic significance and connections, but that doesn't symbolize world domination at all.

I don't agree with your statement entirely.

Not the fact of origin, but the lack of attributing the significance of the outrageousness of it.   It's a PENTAGRAM, the bottom tip is EXACTLY where the white house is.   It's 4-5 square miles.

Of course if you research how many presidents were Freemasons or Skull & Bones (Offshoot of masons) it pretty much suggests that they are in power.

Now, with that said, combine that with the freemason book calling Lucifer God, and you have Lucifer worshippers who put pentagrams on our nation's capital in the streets, and become our presidents.   

Couple that with some of our nations "prized" monuments are masonic & luciferic, such as the Washington Monument, and the Statue of Liberty (gift from French Freemasons) which represents the God of the Sun (Colossus/Ra/Light Bearer/Lucifer).   A plaque exists on the Statue of Liberty as a dedication from the Masons.

Now with that said, seems like they certainly are dominating the world being in such positions of power.... 

But this is besides the point of focusing on the Orthodox Clergy being involved with them. I don't understand why things get so digressed here?
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #121 on: February 13, 2012, 11:38:11 AM »

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

...that's just freaky!

Must simply be a coincidence...don't you think?

No, the planner for Washington D.C. was a French Freemason. Washington D.C. was planned out way back in in the last 1700s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Enfant_Plan
It was a popular concept for the day, where you would create main avenues between major plazas, monuments, etc... The same was done in Paris, where they destroyed many blocks to create main avenues in geometric patterns radiating around the city.

So its probably the product of planning and layout of streets, and could very well have been intentional considering the masonic connections between the President and Planner. (Washington and L'Enfant, though L'Enfant didn't go high into masonry)

People take something as simple as that and try to make it into something more than it is. Sure, it probably has masonic significance and connections, but that doesn't symbolize world domination at all.

I don't agree with your statement entirely.

Not the fact of origin, but the lack of attributing the significance of the outrageousness of it.   It's a PENTAGRAM, the bottom tip is EXACTLY where the white house is.   It's 4-5 square miles.

Of course if you research how many presidents were Freemasons or Skull & Bones (Offshoot of masons) it pretty much suggests that they are in power.

Now, with that said, combine that with the freemason book calling Lucifer God, and you have Lucifer worshippers who put pentagrams on our nation's capital in the streets, and become our presidents.   

Couple that with some of our nations "prized" monuments are masonic & luciferic, such as the Washington Monument, and the Statue of Liberty (gift from French Freemasons) which represents the God of the Sun (Colossus/Ra/Light Bearer/Lucifer).   A plaque exists on the Statue of Liberty as a dedication from the Masons.

Now with that said, seems like they certainly are dominating the world being in such positions of power.... 

But this is besides the point of focusing on the Orthodox Clergy being involved with them. I don't understand why things get so digressed here?

 You clearly have not been reading from reliable sources. The pentagram, or eastern star wasn't used by Satanists and Neo-Pagans until well after it was in use by many world faiths (including Christianity) as well as Freemasons...

In fact, the upside down pentagram didn't have real negative connotations until Satanist began using it, well after the Masons were already using it...

As I said before, you need to stop reading these conspiracy theory websites and you especially need to stop trusting websites of Old Believers.

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #122 on: February 13, 2012, 12:05:58 PM »
Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?



I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Ehm, it's in the BOOK itself.  Lucifer is called God.  I have the book right here on my shelf with a sticky note in it.   Page 321 & 324.

That's one book, and not even an isbn number.

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #123 on: February 13, 2012, 12:32:38 PM »
Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?



I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Ehm, it's in the BOOK itself.  Lucifer is called God.  I have the book right here on my shelf with a sticky note in it.   Page 321 & 324.
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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #124 on: February 13, 2012, 12:48:57 PM »
My aunt's boyfriend is in the Freemasons. I'm not sure I would join even if I could, but this guy seems pretty normal. He owns a paint store. Not a whiff of the Satanist about him.
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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #125 on: February 13, 2012, 12:53:36 PM »
My aunt's boyfriend is in the Freemasons. I'm not sure I would join even if I could, but this guy seems pretty normal. He owns a paint store. Not a whiff of the Satanist about him.
In a some-what defense of the premise....I have heard that degrees 1-3 are pretty normal (farmer john, and jack at the firehouse kind of guys). Its higher up that you get into the dirt.

Now whether thats true...well....

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #126 on: February 13, 2012, 01:28:50 PM »
My aunt's boyfriend is in the Freemasons. I'm not sure I would join even if I could, but this guy seems pretty normal. He owns a paint store. Not a whiff of the Satanist about him.
In a some-what defense of the premise....I have heard that degrees 1-3 are pretty normal (farmer john, and jack at the firehouse kind of guys). Its higher up that you get into the dirt.

Now whether thats true...well....

PP

No, I doubt it.  I believe a mason when he tells you the only thing secret is the handshake and password.  What fraternal organization doesn't have those to get into the chapter room for a meeting?  None that I know of. 
The only thing about higher degrees I have experienced in non-mason fraternal organizations is the ritual is just neater and each one you learn a lesson that ties in with the fraternities beliefs.  And the core belief is usually taught at the first degree. No secret there, you're told up front what the organization believes.  I doubt the masons are any different in that regard. 

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #127 on: February 13, 2012, 01:39:21 PM »

My question still remains...what's the benefit of entering a "fraternal" organization in the first place?  What are the people trying to gain?
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #128 on: February 13, 2012, 01:41:08 PM »

My question still remains...what's the benefit of entering a "fraternal" organization in the first place?  What are the people trying to gain?
networking contacts, political and business relationships, friends for their kids.....sounds alot like a seminar my former church gave on why you should come to church...... ::)

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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #129 on: February 13, 2012, 01:48:03 PM »

My point exactly!

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline recent convert

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #130 on: February 13, 2012, 02:04:32 PM »
I don't know, I saw National Treasure & enjoyed it but still never considered freemasonry. I even saw a ritual depicted in Peggy Sue Got Married (note that Nick Cage is in both movies) but that never affected me either. Oh well.
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Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #131 on: February 13, 2012, 02:13:40 PM »

My question still remains...what's the benefit of entering a "fraternal" organization in the first place?  What are the people trying to gain?

With respect, I don't know if a woman can understand very well why men join fraternities.

After Liturgy next week, I will start grilling the members of the Philoptochos Society and make those women tell me exactly what they are trying to gain.

Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #132 on: February 13, 2012, 02:16:14 PM »
My aunt's boyfriend is in the Freemasons. I'm not sure I would join even if I could, but this guy seems pretty normal. He owns a paint store. Not a whiff of the Satanist about him.
In a some-what defense of the premise....I have heard that degrees 1-3 are pretty normal (farmer john, and jack at the firehouse kind of guys). Its higher up that you get into the dirt.

Now whether thats true...well....

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No, I doubt it.  I believe a mason when he tells you the only thing secret is the handshake and password.  What fraternal organization doesn't have those to get into the chapter room for a meeting?  None that I know of.  
The only thing about higher degrees I have experienced in non-mason fraternal organizations is the ritual is just neater and each one you learn a lesson that ties in with the fraternities beliefs.  And the core belief is usually taught at the first degree. No secret there, you're told up front what the organization believes.  I doubt the masons are any different in that regard.  

The non-Blue Lodges degrees are not considered "higher". They are considered lateral.

And, some high degrees! Here is how to get your 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite: watch a bunch of short plays over the course of a weekend. Presto! You now have your 32nd degree. I showed up on Saturday morning as a 3d degree and left the next day as a 32nd degree.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 02:16:32 PM by Sauron »

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #133 on: February 13, 2012, 02:18:18 PM »
My brother (not Orthodox) joined the Freemasons and the Shriners, we tried to convince him not to but what can you do when he's married and on his own right? lol

He wanted something to belong to and the Masons & Shriners gave him that. Of course, not that I agree with it, but he's happy...

You can ask, why do women join Sororities in College? It isn't always about alcohol, in fact I think women join sororities more for the "sisterhood" aspect than alcohol, whereas men probably join fraternities more for the parties than the "brotherhood".

Heck my dad was a member of the Lion's Club (not masonic btw) for years. Its something for men to belong to.

Of course, this is all in the United States, it may be different in Europe.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 02:20:09 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Manalive

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #134 on: February 13, 2012, 02:20:09 PM »
Sauron, your faith says: "Catholic- Latin Rite". How did you get around the Papal ban of Freemasonary? Why not join the Knights of Columbus instead?
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