Author Topic: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons  (Read 16149 times)

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Offline vamrat

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #180 on: February 14, 2012, 03:48:05 PM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

No, I was just saying that women cannot be Masons, just as they cannot be Boy Scouts. Nothing else was intended. Would you have taken it as a cheap shot if I had said she can't be a Boy Scout?


You have heard that in California (of course) the Boy Scouts are now admitting trans-gender girl-boys.

Lady-Boy Scouts???  I thought that was only in Thailand?????
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #181 on: February 14, 2012, 04:02:20 PM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

 :D  Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #182 on: February 14, 2012, 04:05:57 PM »
Apropos to this discussion, a friend just shared the following image with me.  ;D



Nice!

Masons must be a rather self-loathing lot.  Under "What I think I do" it has a guy drinking poison.

Imagine what people think about Christians . . .
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Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #183 on: February 14, 2012, 05:08:21 PM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

 :D  Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!


Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #184 on: February 14, 2012, 05:12:55 PM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

 :D  Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!


Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.

So speaketh The Eye!

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Alpo

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #185 on: February 14, 2012, 05:16:34 PM »
Apropos to this discussion, a friend just shared the following image with me.  ;D

I'd like to an Orthodox equivalent for that. This is my suggestion for last picture.


Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #186 on: February 14, 2012, 05:19:13 PM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

 :D  Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!


Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.


Hold on there....not this woman.  I always appreciate a gentleman.

...and don't be so fast to blame the women....if the men were real men....
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #187 on: February 14, 2012, 05:22:22 PM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

 :D  Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!


Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.


Hold on there....not this woman.  I always appreciate a gentleman.

...and don't be so fast to blame the women....if the men were real men....

There are plenty. just ask the guys getting sent to human resources for opening a door for a lady.....

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline biro

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #188 on: February 14, 2012, 05:36:22 PM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;DI

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

 :D  Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!


Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.


Hold on there....not this woman.  I always appreciate a gentleman.

...and don't be so fast to blame the women....if the men were real men....

There are plenty. just ask the guys getting sent to human resources for opening a door for a lady.....

PP

Never heard of that. Probably because it doesn't exist.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #189 on: February 14, 2012, 05:38:10 PM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

 :D  Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!


Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.


Hold on there....not this woman.  I always appreciate a gentleman.

...and don't be so fast to blame the women....if the men were real men....

There are plenty. just ask the guys getting sent to human resources for opening a door for a lady.....

PP

Turn off AM radio.

I've worked in many places and environments and I am full on etiquette guy. Never a complaint, always compliments.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #190 on: February 14, 2012, 05:40:16 PM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

 :D  Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!


Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.


Hold on there....not this woman.  I always appreciate a gentleman.

...and don't be so fast to blame the women....if the men were real men....

There are plenty. just ask the guys getting sent to human resources for opening a door for a lady.....

PP

Turn off AM radio.

I've worked in many places and environments and I am full on etiquette guy. Never a complaint, always compliments.
AM Radio nothin, my friend. It's happened here where I work at.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #191 on: February 14, 2012, 05:46:21 PM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

 :D  Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!


Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.


Hold on there....not this woman.  I always appreciate a gentleman.

...and don't be so fast to blame the women....if the men were real men....


I haven't the slightest idea what "real men" is supposed to mean. I have found in modern lingo that "real man" means "man who does what women say".

In any event, western women have made it clear that they want no-fault divorce, abortion on demand, to serve as combat troops, and to be unwed mothers. Fine. They can deal with opening their own doors, changing their own tires, and picking up their share of the check.

Do I help, aid, and assist the women in my family and other women for whom I care? Absolutely. However, I have no inclination to be a free valet for women I have never met.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #192 on: February 14, 2012, 05:55:30 PM »
And people are giving Act420 a hard time about how he(?) views women? This thread is getting vile.

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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #193 on: February 14, 2012, 05:57:47 PM »
And people are giving Act420 a hard time about how he(?) views women? This thread is getting vile.


Actually, I was thinking this is about a frog's butt-hair away from decending into a Valentine's Day thread :)

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #194 on: February 14, 2012, 06:17:38 PM »
And people are giving Act420 a hard time about how he(?) views women? This thread is getting vile.

I think we can all at least agree that the Boy Scouts is a laudable organization.  ;D

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #195 on: February 14, 2012, 06:22:26 PM »

I haven't the slightest idea what "real men" is supposed to mean. I have found in modern lingo that "real man" means "man who does what women say".

In any event, western women have made it clear that they want no-fault divorce, abortion on demand, to serve as combat troops, and to be unwed mothers. Fine. They can deal with opening their own doors, changing their own tires, and picking up their share of the check.

Do I help, aid, and assist the women in my family and other women for whom I care? Absolutely. However, I have no inclination to be a free valet for women I have never met.


LOL!  Real men...well, real men actually take pride in their family, work to support them, are fathers to their kids and not their friends, put the welfare of their kids before themselves....need I go on?
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #196 on: February 14, 2012, 06:23:33 PM »

AM Radio nothin, my friend. It's happened here where I work at.

PP

Where do you work?

Perhaps this man gave a nice little pat on the woman's bottom as he let her through the door?  Do you know her side of it?

« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 06:23:48 PM by LizaSymonenko »
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #197 on: February 14, 2012, 06:28:48 PM »

I haven't the slightest idea what "real men" is supposed to mean. I have found in modern lingo that "real man" means "man who does what women say".

In any event, western women have made it clear that they want no-fault divorce, abortion on demand, to serve as combat troops, and to be unwed mothers. Fine. They can deal with opening their own doors, changing their own tires, and picking up their share of the check.

Do I help, aid, and assist the women in my family and other women for whom I care? Absolutely. However, I have no inclination to be a free valet for women I have never met.


LOL!  Real men...well, real men actually take pride in their family, work to support them, are fathers to their kids and not their friends, put the welfare of their kids before themselves....need I go on?


You probably should start somewhere a lot simpler. And also go on. The anger towards women in this one is strong . . .

Or he could PM me, but this sorta work I only do on a paid consultant basis.

Nice on fathers to their kids not their friends. Ripping that one off of you.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 06:29:03 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #198 on: February 14, 2012, 06:44:22 PM »

I haven't the slightest idea what "real men" is supposed to mean. I have found in modern lingo that "real man" means "man who does what women say".

In any event, western women have made it clear that they want no-fault divorce, abortion on demand, to serve as combat troops, and to be unwed mothers. Fine. They can deal with opening their own doors, changing their own tires, and picking up their share of the check.

Do I help, aid, and assist the women in my family and other women for whom I care? Absolutely. However, I have no inclination to be a free valet for women I have never met.

LOL!  Real men...well, real men actually take pride in their family, work to support them, are fathers to their kids and not their friends, put the welfare of their kids before themselves....need I go on?

I do not know if your LOL is intended to be shaming or if it is a commentary on the post-third-wave feminism West.

In any event, I agree with all of the definitions you just gave for a "real man".

Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #199 on: February 14, 2012, 06:48:46 PM »

AM Radio nothin, my friend. It's happened here where I work at.

PP

Where do you work?

Perhaps this man gave a nice little pat on the woman's bottom as he let her through the door?  Do you know her side of it?



I will let PP speak for himself, but I have certainly experienced the ire of women who took umbrage at a man opening a door for her. The source in every instance was not a pat on the bottom or some other improper touch or look, but offense at the power dynamic implicit in chivalrous behavior.

To qualify my last comment, I still give the chivalrous treatment to ladies. For the purposes of this, I presume the WWII generation and older to be ladies. I will rise when they enter the room, remove my hat at the appropriate times, and help them with heavy loads. I pretty much assume that anyone younger than 60 has been tainted by weird third-wave feminist ideas and treat them no different than I would any man i.e. politely, but not with chivalry.

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #200 on: February 14, 2012, 06:53:12 PM »

I haven't the slightest idea what "real men" is supposed to mean. I have found in modern lingo that "real man" means "man who does what women say".

In any event, western women have made it clear that they want no-fault divorce, abortion on demand, to serve as combat troops, and to be unwed mothers. Fine. They can deal with opening their own doors, changing their own tires, and picking up their share of the check.

Do I help, aid, and assist the women in my family and other women for whom I care? Absolutely. However, I have no inclination to be a free valet for women I have never met.

LOL!  Real men...well, real men actually take pride in their family, work to support them, are fathers to their kids and not their friends, put the welfare of their kids before themselves....need I go on?

I do not know if your LOL is intended to be shaming or if it is a commentary on the post-third-wave feminism West.

In any event, I agree with all of the definitions you just gave for a "real man".


Just backing up your earlier point ...

The commonly understood concept of chivalry is based on the inherent weakness of the female sex and the inherent strength of the male sex. I do not understand how people cling romantically to the concept of chivalry while denying vehemently that a woman ever needs a man's help.

Surely the price of receiving chivalric favours is deference and admission of weakness?
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #201 on: February 14, 2012, 06:54:00 PM »
Well, again...I don't know where you live....however, here where I am....every woman smiles and thanks anyone who holds a swinging door open, an elevator door open, helps her with her bags, let's her first in line, etc.

I've NEVER seen this behavior that seems so predominant where you live.

Perhaps you simply need to move to a more amicable city.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #202 on: February 14, 2012, 06:58:32 PM »

I haven't the slightest idea what "real men" is supposed to mean. I have found in modern lingo that "real man" means "man who does what women say".

In any event, western women have made it clear that they want no-fault divorce, abortion on demand, to serve as combat troops, and to be unwed mothers. Fine. They can deal with opening their own doors, changing their own tires, and picking up their share of the check.

Do I help, aid, and assist the women in my family and other women for whom I care? Absolutely. However, I have no inclination to be a free valet for women I have never met.

LOL!  Real men...well, real men actually take pride in their family, work to support them, are fathers to their kids and not their friends, put the welfare of their kids before themselves....need I go on?

I do not know if your LOL is intended to be shaming or if it is a commentary on the post-third-wave feminism West.

In any event, I agree with all of the definitions you just gave for a "real man".


Just backing up your earlier point ...

The commonly understood concept of chivalry is based on the inherent weakness of the female sex and the inherent strength of the male sex. I do not understand how people cling romantically to the concept of chivalry while denying vehemently that a woman ever needs a man's help.

Surely the price of receiving chivalric favours is deference and admission of weakness?

Once again, I have no problem admitting that men are inherently stronger than women!  Every woman knows that!....except if you pit a weight-lifting woman against a frail man.

The issue is not with strength. 

The problems arise when the men like to Lord it over their women.  We may be "weaker" physically, but, we are not slaves, we are not mentally incapacitated, we are made from Adams rib to stand on man's side, equal to him - not in front of him, nor behind him, but, next to him.

All slaves will revolt at some point.  Enslaved women, who feel desperate and have had enough, are no different.

However, we have veered off topic.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #203 on: February 14, 2012, 07:02:18 PM »
Just backing up your earlier point ...

The commonly understood concept of chivalry is based on the inherent weakness of the female sex and the inherent strength of the male sex. I do not understand how people cling romantically to the concept of chivalry while denying vehemently that a woman ever needs a man's help.

Surely the price of receiving chivalric favours is deference and admission of weakness?

正解! (for the non-Japanophones, "correct!")

Yes, chivalry only comes from a position of power. Most of us remember at least enough history from our schooling to know that chivalry was the behavior of knights, who held great wealth and power in their societies. Their acts of kindness towards those weaker/lower status were gracious because everyone knew that the knights could do otherwise if they wanted. Chivalry was never an expectation of behavior. Rather, it was a gift to the recipient.

And, chivalry was never for all women. The recipients of chivalry were women of high virtue and low power. Such women are increasingly rare.

Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #204 on: February 14, 2012, 07:05:41 PM »

I haven't the slightest idea what "real men" is supposed to mean. I have found in modern lingo that "real man" means "man who does what women say".

In any event, western women have made it clear that they want no-fault divorce, abortion on demand, to serve as combat troops, and to be unwed mothers. Fine. They can deal with opening their own doors, changing their own tires, and picking up their share of the check.

Do I help, aid, and assist the women in my family and other women for whom I care? Absolutely. However, I have no inclination to be a free valet for women I have never met.

LOL!  Real men...well, real men actually take pride in their family, work to support them, are fathers to their kids and not their friends, put the welfare of their kids before themselves....need I go on?

I do not know if your LOL is intended to be shaming or if it is a commentary on the post-third-wave feminism West.

In any event, I agree with all of the definitions you just gave for a "real man".


Just backing up your earlier point ...

The commonly understood concept of chivalry is based on the inherent weakness of the female sex and the inherent strength of the male sex. I do not understand how people cling romantically to the concept of chivalry while denying vehemently that a woman ever needs a man's help.

Surely the price of receiving chivalric favours is deference and admission of weakness?

Once again, I have no problem admitting that men are inherently stronger than women!  Every woman knows that!....except if you pit a weight-lifting woman against a frail man.

The issue is not with strength. 

The problems arise when the men like to Lord it over their women.  We may be "weaker" physically, but, we are not slaves, we are not mentally incapacitated, we are made from Adams rib to stand on man's side, equal to him - not in front of him, nor behind him, but, next to him.

All slaves will revolt at some point.  Enslaved women, who feel desperate and have had enough, are no different.

However, we have veered off topic.


I thought the Bible said that women were to submit to their husbands.

For you to say that American women have ever experienced anything even remotely resembling chattel slavery shows a lack of familiarity with American history and the institution of slavery.

But, let's take your analogy at face value. Once the slave has broken his shackles, he is no longer his master's ward.

Offline TheMathematician

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #205 on: February 14, 2012, 07:07:38 PM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

No, I was just saying that women cannot be Masons, just as they cannot be Boy Scouts. Nothing else was intended. Would you have taken it as a cheap shot if I had said she can't be a Boy Scout?


You have heard that in California (of course) the Boy Scouts are now admitting trans-gender girl-boys.
your proof for this please
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 07:10:10 PM by TheMathematician »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #206 on: February 14, 2012, 07:07:58 PM »
I do not know if your LOL is intended to be shaming or if it is a commentary on the post-third-wave feminism West.


Better to get to know women in person than from books.

Even those whatever you call them ain't what they think. None us usually are. Thankfully, our personalities trump our "principles". Well, in my case it is a toss up which is worse, but you get my point.
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Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #207 on: February 14, 2012, 07:09:17 PM »
Well, again...I don't know where you live....however, here where I am....every woman smiles and thanks anyone who holds a swinging door open, an elevator door open, helps her with her bags, let's her first in line, etc.

I've NEVER seen this behavior that seems so predominant where you live.

Perhaps you simply need to move to a more amicable city.

Oh, I knew what I was doing when I married a non-American.

If a door is swinging and someone is right behind me, I will hold it for a man for a woman. Same for an elevator door. I haven't the slightest idea why I should let a woman in line ahead of me. If it is at the supermarket and the person behind me has two items while I have twenty, I would not hesitate to invite them ahead on me, man or woman. But all things being equal, I don't see why a woman should get to go first in line.

I agree the topic has drifted. If you think a split is appropriate, could you please do so?

Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #208 on: February 14, 2012, 07:10:56 PM »
I do not know if your LOL is intended to be shaming or if it is a commentary on the post-third-wave feminism West.


Better to get to know women in person than from books.

Even those whatever you call them ain't what they think. None us usually are. Thankfully, our personalities trump our "principles". Well, in my case it is a toss up which is worse, but you get my point.

I do not understand your comment about books. I am the happily married father of two and have been married for 10 years. (in fact, my wife's birthday is St. Valentine's Day, so I am about to head home to celebrate) However, you seem to have missed the current state of American society.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 07:11:30 PM by Sauron »

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #209 on: February 14, 2012, 07:19:08 PM »

I thought the Bible said that women were to submit to their husbands.

For you to say that American women have ever experienced anything even remotely resembling chattel slavery shows a lack of familiarity with American history and the institution of slavery.

But, let's take your analogy at face value. Once the slave has broken his shackles, he is no longer his master's ward.


What?!?  You love to poke at what seems to you a "lack of knowledge".  It seems to be your only defense over and over and over. 

First you accuse me of not knowing the English language, and now I do not know American History.    You seem to have this man "power" thing under control, as you seem to have mastered everything.  No wonder you are a worshipful master.

As for the "slave" comment, apparently, you've never been face to face with the beaten wife!    When she's constantly beaten down both physically and mentally, do you think that is how God intended the man to be "master" over his wife?

If the men today, were like the men in the Bible, the women would be the same, as well.

Women change, because men have changed.

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Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #210 on: February 14, 2012, 07:24:41 PM »
What?!?  You love to poke at what seems to you a "lack of knowledge".  It seems to be your only defense over and over and over.

That is because the source of incorrect opinions is usually a lack of knowledge.

Quote
First you accuse me of not knowing the English language, and now I do not know American History.    You seem to have this man "power" thing under control, as you seem to have mastered everything.  No wonder you are a worshipful master.

I did not say you did not know English. I said that you were unfamiliar with the history of the word "worship" and its use in the Commonwealth. That comment by me was correct.

And yes, your comment regarding female slavery showed a lack of familiarity with American history. American women were never chattel.

Quote
As for the "slave" comment, apparently, you've never been face to face with the beaten wife!    When she's constantly beaten down both physically and mentally, do you think that is how God intended the man to be "master" over his wife?

No, I do not think that at all. Do you think serial monogamy and unwed motherhood is what God intended?

Quote
If the men today, were like the men in the Bible, the women would be the same, as well.

Women change, because men have changed.

In what manner did men change that led women to demand no-fault divorce and abortion on demand?

Are you married?

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #211 on: February 14, 2012, 08:22:11 PM »
Whether I am married or single has no baring on my opinion, nor is it any of your business.

It's very BIG of you to assume that because my opinion differs from yours, that I must be suffering from a lack of knowledge. 

Must be good to know that you are always right and those who don't see it the way you do are plain stupid.

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Offline Aram

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #212 on: February 14, 2012, 08:34:00 PM »

You have heard that in California (of course) the Boy Scouts are now admitting trans-gender girl-boys.
Citation please.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #213 on: February 14, 2012, 09:12:01 PM »
Must be good to know that you are always right and those who don't see it the way you do are plain stupid.

More comforting than you can imagine . . . though I tend to use more colorful modifiers than plain.

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #214 on: February 14, 2012, 09:13:41 PM »

 ;)  I wasn't talking about you, Orthonorm, although if the shoe fits...
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Offline dcommini

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #215 on: February 15, 2012, 12:04:38 AM »
I was having more fun reading and laughing at some of the ridiculous and outlandish claims aimed at Freemasonry  than reading this current drivelling diatribe.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 12:05:16 AM by dcommini »
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #216 on: February 15, 2012, 12:21:20 AM »
I always behave chivalrously.  Every time I get in a jousting match or a duel I find some married woman who I'd seriously like to be with instead, and wear her handkerchief around my arm when I enter combat.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline ironchapman

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #217 on: February 15, 2012, 12:28:47 AM »
How the name came to be associated with Satan is by applying a passage from Isiah 14: 3-20, which was written about a Babylonian king, to the Devil. The term originally meant light bearer and was associated with the Morning Star (Venus). Some have pointed to Origen, St. Augustine, or Tertullian as the first to use it to mean the Devil.

Absolutely correct. I was about to write about this. Thank you for doing so.

Quote
Now, I'm not all that big a fan of the masons, but let's stick to facts, shall we?

Now, why should we let facts stand in the way of holding whatever opinions we like?  ;)


Heh, no problem. Conspiracy theories in general are something I don't like.

And that's one of the problems with the name Lucifer. It never originally meant Satan, so when it pops up in other contexts, people assume it must be a reference to the devil.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 12:30:13 AM by ironchapman »
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Offline dcommini

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #218 on: February 15, 2012, 12:56:28 AM »
How the name came to be associated with Satan is by applying a passage from Isiah 14: 3-20, which was written about a Babylonian king, to the Devil. The term originally meant light bearer and was associated with the Morning Star (Venus). Some have pointed to Origen, St. Augustine, or Tertullian as the first to use it to mean the Devil.

Absolutely correct. I was about to write about this. Thank you for doing so.

Quote
Now, I'm not all that big a fan of the masons, but let's stick to facts, shall we?

Now, why should we let facts stand in the way of holding whatever opinions we like?  ;)


Heh, no problem. Conspiracy theories in general are something I don't like.

And that's one of the problems with the name Lucifer. It never originally meant Satan, so when it pops up in other contexts, people assume it must be a reference to the devil.

That's the point I tried tto make in my early post. Also, as to why the fremasons don't come out against Pike is that everybody is free to believe what they believe, that and Pike was never in a position to be th spokesman for Freemasonry (no man ever is). Was Pike influential? Yes, but only in his jurisidiction, that being the southern and some western states. Many Masons from the northern states don't know who pike is, and at the time of Pikes writing many in the north d not agree with what Pike wrote.
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Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #219 on: February 15, 2012, 10:33:43 AM »
Whether I am married or single has no baring on my opinion, nor is it any of your business.

I think it has quite a bearing on your opinion of "real men". In any event, I think you are to be commended. Most of us do not have the constitution to endure the celibate life.

Quote
It's very BIG of you to assume that because my opinion differs from yours, that I must be suffering from a lack of knowledge.

It was not a matter of opinion. Whether or not women in America were slaves is a matter of fact, not opinion. Women were never chattel.

Quote
Must be good to know that you are always right and those who don't see it the way you do are plain stupid.

I have neither said that I am always right nor said that anyone is stupid. Please do not throw out straw men and red herrings that have no relation to the matter at hand.

Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #220 on: February 15, 2012, 10:34:14 AM »
I always behave chivalrously.  Every time I get in a jousting match or a duel I find some married woman who I'd seriously like to be with instead, and wear her handkerchief around my arm when I enter combat.

You should attend Medieval Times!

Offline Sauron

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #221 on: February 15, 2012, 10:36:01 AM »
How the name came to be associated with Satan is by applying a passage from Isiah 14: 3-20, which was written about a Babylonian king, to the Devil. The term originally meant light bearer and was associated with the Morning Star (Venus). Some have pointed to Origen, St. Augustine, or Tertullian as the first to use it to mean the Devil.

Absolutely correct. I was about to write about this. Thank you for doing so.

Quote
Now, I'm not all that big a fan of the masons, but let's stick to facts, shall we?

Now, why should we let facts stand in the way of holding whatever opinions we like?  ;)


Heh, no problem. Conspiracy theories in general are something I don't like.

And that's one of the problems with the name Lucifer. It never originally meant Satan, so when it pops up in other contexts, people assume it must be a reference to the devil.

That's the point I tried tto make in my early post. Also, as to why the fremasons don't come out against Pike is that everybody is free to believe what they believe, that and Pike was never in a position to be th spokesman for Freemasonry (no man ever is). Was Pike influential? Yes, but only in his jurisidiction, that being the southern and some western states. Many Masons from the northern states don't know who pike is, and at the time of Pikes writing many in the north d not agree with what Pike wrote.

This. Again, I think Pike was probably famous in his time, but I have never heard a Mason talk about him. And, his thing was the Scottish Rite. If a Mason focuses his activities on the Blue Lodge, York Rite, Shrine, or about 100 other things, there would be even less cause to even hear of Albert Pike.

Offline vamrat

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #222 on: February 15, 2012, 10:50:17 AM »

Thank you for your answer.   ;D

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.
please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.


I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

No, I was just saying that women cannot be Masons, just as they cannot be Boy Scouts. Nothing else was intended. Would you have taken it as a cheap shot if I had said she can't be a Boy Scout?


You have heard that in California (of course) the Boy Scouts are now admitting trans-gender girl-boys.
your proof for this please

LOL, you just want to see the pictures!
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #223 on: February 15, 2012, 12:08:33 PM »
Quote
First of all, what is with so many people having St. Patrick for their avatar?
As I said before, I deeply respect St. Patrick, but I am also passively protesting something that I'd rather not discuss in open conversation out of respect for the admins.

Quote
pike pushes for changing Lucifer bck to its original meaning and the the "god" of freemasonry brings light and therefore is Lucifer in the strictest sense going purely by the strict meaning
So why Lucifer? Why not Helios or Mithras?

Quote
Fourth, Morals and Dogma is not a Freemason hand book, but a Scottish rite hand book, but even then it doesnt speak for the whole of the scottish rite
But why would the Scottish Rite masons allow it to go on being published if they were against it?

I know that if a guy published something stating that the Lions Club worshipped the head of an actual lion, the ink would not dry on that publication before the Lions Club had something to say about it.

PP

I remember my friend telling me about a Bishop Lucifer of Caligari from the 4th century. Known for his passionate arguments against Arianism. Some consider him a saint in Catholicism (not sure about Orthodoxy), and there is at least one Church of San Lucifero. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_of_Cagliari

How the name came to be associated with Satan is by applying a passage from Isiah 14: 3-20, which was written about a Babylonian king, to the Devil. The term originally meant light bearer and was associated with the Morning Star (Venus). Some have pointed to Origen, St. Augustine, or Tertullian as the first to use it to mean the Devil.

The association of Lucifer/Satan to freemasonery derives from what is called the "Taxil Hoax", which is just that.

From The Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon:

Quote
Neither the attributes nor personification of Lucifer or Satan play any role in the beliefs or rituals of Freemasonry. The topic is only of interest insofar as anti-masonic attacks have accused Freemasonry of worshiping Lucifer. The confusion stems from such 19th century masonic authors as Albert Pike and Albert G. Mackey who have used the term "luciferian" in its classical or literary sense to refer to a search for knowledge. John Robinson notes "The emphasis here should be on intent. When Albert Pike and other Masonic scholars spoke over a century ago about the "Luciferian path," or the "energies of Lucifer," they were referring to the morning star, the light bearer, the search for light; the very antithesis of dark, satanic evil."

Also, from A Page about Freemasonry a quote from Leo Taxil, the man who originated the Satanic-Masonic connection:

Quote
"The public made me what I am, the arch-liar of the period, for when I first commenced to write against the Masons my object was amusement pure and simple. The crimes laid at their door were so grotesque, so impossible, so widely exaggerated, I thought everybody would see the joke and give me credit for originating a new line of humour. But my readers wouldn't have it so; they accepted my fables as gospel truth, and the more I lied for the purpose of showing that I lied, the more convinced became they that I was a paragon of veracity."

Also of interest:

A confession by Leo Taxil.

taxil may be dead, but his hoax lives on.

The Leo Taxil Hoax

Wikipedia's Taxil Hoax Article

And a word of advice to the people adhering to this hoax, if your website mentions the "Illuminati" or "New World Order" or attempts to ascribe conspiracies or Satanic meanings to all sorts of otherwise easily explainable things, it's probably not all that credible of a place.

Now, I'm not all that big a fan of the masons, but let's stick to facts, shall we?

I don't agree at all, and I"m sticking to the FACTS with proof.

Again Albert Pike's book - Morals and Dogma.

Every Masonic Lodge is a Temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion   (pg 213)

"LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" -Page 321.
(Freemasons search for "light" or Illumination)

"To make this also their motto: Do that which thou oughtest to do; let the result be what it will." -Page 333  (This is very similar to the wiccan creed of "Do what thou wilt" and also Aliester Crowley who made the motto "Do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law".  This contradicts "thy will be done" and promotes one making themselves God, as lucifer did.)

Couple just those few things with the pentagrams used the oaths sworn, and twisting that Lucifer and Jesus are one in the same, and you have yourself a gnostic/luciferian church.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons
« Reply #224 on: February 15, 2012, 12:14:00 PM »
How the name came to be associated with Satan is by applying a passage from Isiah 14: 3-20, which was written about a Babylonian king, to the Devil. The term originally meant light bearer and was associated with the Morning Star (Venus). Some have pointed to Origen, St. Augustine, or Tertullian as the first to use it to mean the Devil.

Absolutely correct. I was about to write about this. Thank you for doing so.

Quote
Now, I'm not all that big a fan of the masons, but let's stick to facts, shall we?

Now, why should we let facts stand in the way of holding whatever opinions we like?  ;)


Heh, no problem. Conspiracy theories in general are something I don't like.

And that's one of the problems with the name Lucifer. It never originally meant Satan, so when it pops up in other contexts, people assume it must be a reference to the devil.

That's the point I tried tto make in my early post. Also, as to why the fremasons don't come out against Pike is that everybody is free to believe what they believe, that and Pike was never in a position to be th spokesman for Freemasonry (no man ever is). Was Pike influential? Yes, but only in his jurisidiction, that being the southern and some western states. Many Masons from the northern states don't know who pike is, and at the time of Pikes writing many in the north d not agree with what Pike wrote.

Pike was a 33 degree mason, and his book is extremely famous and highly revered by masons.   
The problem here is that even if you denounce Pike as a good source, that you still have to get past the Pentagrams, blood oaths, rituals, calling the lodge leader "worshipful master", and the aprons used in the rituals (as they do in witchcraft and high level mormon rituals).

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