Very controversial, Orthodox Freemasons

[yeshuaisiam]

http://mymartyrdom.com/orthomason.htm

Thoughts?  Comments?

My thoughts are that even though I'm not entirely jumping on board with this, I have seen a lot of Orthodox Christians involved in Freemasonry.  The shockers are the Patriarchs, which will take some time to dissolve and rationality to come into play once the shock wears off.   I'll have to figure out the validity.  Interested in some other's  opinions.

[Michał Kalina]

The author of this site used to post here.

IMO his more interesting theory is that oil is made of those who perished during the Deluge. And that using the Internet is sinful (he wrote that on his website).

[FormerReformer]

I would take anything from a website which blasts the Boyscouts as being "masonic" with a grain of salt, and perhaps a bottle or five of absinthe.

[Ionnis]

The Orthodox Church is clear that one cannot be a faithful Orthodox Christian and a Freemason.  Yes, some within the Orthodox Church are Freemasons, even high ranking clergymen.  It is scandalous, but lots of people live in defiance of the Church's teaching.  All sin is scandalous. 

[JamesRottnek]

Before the following paragraph from the bottom of that page there is an image of a double-headed eagle with the caption "The ABOMINATION of DESOLATION" (capitalization, his):

We might see how other issues play a part in this slow break down of Orthodox Empires. This all started with Byzantium in 1204 when the Masonic Crusaders pillaged the once great city. Constantinople’s downfall became total in 1453 by the Turks who are now masons as well. Then in Russia it began with Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century and finally wiping out the Orthodox Church by the hands of Nikon in the 17th century (some wrongly say the last vestige of the Russian Empire left in the 20th century). This is how it develops. Freemasonry can then be tied into American Indian Prophecy with the 2-headed snake which ends up devouring all the towns and cities. They say it is no coincidence that the bald eagle is an American symbol. The debut of the two-headed eagle can be attributed to a foreshadowing of eventual ruin to those rulers that take it.

[FormerReformer]

Other fun tidbits of insanity-

This 500 KB PDF file has an undeniable amount of references

How many references does it take for something to be "undeniable"? At what point does the amount of referenced material equal infallibility? And as an aside perhaps more appropriate for the Orthodox-Catholic forum- does this infallibility outweigh the Pope's, or is it the Pontiff's impressive list of references that make his ex cathedra statements infallible (and once I get an answer to my first question here, perhaps we Orthodox can finally figure out just which statements are then ex cathedra, by reference counting)?

[FormerReformer]

Before the following paragraph from the bottom of that page there is an image of a double-headed eagle with the caption "The ABOMINATION of DESOLATION" (capitalization, his):

We might see how other issues play a part in this slow break down of Orthodox Empires. This all started with Byzantium in 1204 when the Masonic Crusaders pillaged the once great city. Constantinople’s downfall became total in 1453 by the Turks who are now masons as well. Then in Russia it began with Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century and finally wiping out the Orthodox Church by the hands of Nikon in the 17th century (some wrongly say the last vestige of the Russian Empire left in the 20th century). This is how it develops. Freemasonry can then be tied into American Indian Prophecy with the 2-headed snake which ends up devouring all the towns and cities. They say it is no coincidence that the bald eagle is an American symbol. The debut of the two-headed eagle can be attributed to a foreshadowing of eventual ruin to those rulers that take it.

So Freemasons are a world-destroying evil of such greatness that any Orthodox person is tainted by it, ecumenism is the root of all evil, American Indian Prophecies are the gospel truth?

[JamesRottnek]

Before the following paragraph from the bottom of that page there is an image of a double-headed eagle with the caption "The ABOMINATION of DESOLATION" (capitalization, his):

We might see how other issues play a part in this slow break down of Orthodox Empires. This all started with Byzantium in 1204 when the Masonic Crusaders pillaged the once great city. Constantinople’s downfall became total in 1453 by the Turks who are now masons as well. Then in Russia it began with Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century and finally wiping out the Orthodox Church by the hands of Nikon in the 17th century (some wrongly say the last vestige of the Russian Empire left in the 20th century). This is how it develops. Freemasonry can then be tied into American Indian Prophecy with the 2-headed snake which ends up devouring all the towns and cities. They say it is no coincidence that the bald eagle is an American symbol. The debut of the two-headed eagle can be attributed to a foreshadowing of eventual ruin to those rulers that take it.

So Freemasons are a world-destroying evil of such greatness that any Orthodox person is tainted by it, ecumenism is the root of all evil, American Indian Prophecies are the gospel truth?

We have seen the true light; we have received the heavenly Spirit; we have found the true faith, worshiping the undivided Indians, for the Prophecy has saved us.

[yeshuaisiam]

Do the photos lie though?  Do masonic lodge memberships lie?

I don't entirely agree with him, so let me make that clear.  There are things that are a stretch for sure.
Not sure if some of you know about the luciferian faith of Freemasonry.
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org

[Michał Kalina]

Do masonic lodge memberships lie?

Of course they do. The Masons are Jewish reptilians from the space that want to chip us in order to take control over the world. They have already infiltrated all the governments and religious organisations and media and everything.

[PeterTheAleut]

Do the photos lie though?  Do masonic lodge memberships lie?

When John Alden compiles them and interprets them for us (by telling us that the photos represent connections to Freemasonry when they could really be of anything, even something totally unrelated to Freemasonry), then maybe they do lie.

[JamesRottnek]

Do the photos lie though?  Do masonic lodge memberships lie?

Most of those photos don't mean a thing.  In fact, at least one of them is very blurry, one of them merely shows a bishop at a Lions Club meeting (a photo, of course, being unable to substantiate claims that the Lions Club is Masonic), and the rest seem to lack English language captions so I'm not sure what the photos are even supposed to be of.  Then there was at least one (the one about Patriarch Demetrios) that I am not sure of any reason to believe it is authentic.  Especially when, searching for a reference to him being a Mason, the only pages on Google were True Orthodox sites, and their like.  Consequently, I question the validity of the photo, as - if it is what it claims to be - it would seem that the whole Orthodox world would know the Patriarch was a Mason.

[podkarpatska]

You know, I think that some folks spend way too much time watching stupid programs on the so-called "History Channel" and its sister networks for their own good. They had a really stupid one on Masonry yesterday which I watched for about 10 minutes on their 'Americas Book of Secrets' series. Same old, same old...shocking promos, five minutes of teasing, a minute of 'information', a commercial break, a rehash of the previous segment and a clip from some self-professed 'expert'. Just like 'Ancient Aliens.'

Reading is a far better pursuit.

[Ionnis]

Do masonic lodge memberships lie?

Of course they do. The Masons are Jewish reptilians from the space that want to chip us in order to take control over the world. They have already infiltrated all the governments and religious organisations and media and everything.

[podkarpatska]

Do masonic lodge memberships lie?

Of course they do. The Masons are Jewish reptilians from the space that want to chip us in order to take control over the world. They have already infiltrated all the governments and religious organisations and media and everything.

I guess they have the History Channel in Poland. 

[That person]

So what exactly is the problem with Masonry?

[Asteriktos]

So what exactly is the problem with Masonry?

Orthodox prefer log-built structures.

Har har har. Seriously though, I think it's all the secretive stuff and the stuff that blends religions or ecumenizes things, or something along those lines. I know ROCOR officially condemned it in the 20th century, did anyone else?

[Ionnis]

The Synod of Greece condemned Freemasonry.  A link to their statement:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/masonry.aspx

[podkarpatska]

Frankly, I think that the modern day influence of Masonry as some world wide 'conspiracy' is up there with Dan Brown and his stuff. Of course, I could have been blinded by their 'evil eye.' yeah....

[yeshuaisiam]

Do the photos lie though?  Do masonic lodge memberships lie?

When John Alden compiles them and interprets them for us (by telling us that the photos represent connections to Freemasonry when they could really be of anything, even something totally unrelated to Freemasonry), then maybe they do lie.

Like Bishops in front of Obelisks?

[yeshuaisiam]

The Orthodox Church is clear that one cannot be a faithful Orthodox Christian and a Freemason.  Yes, some within the Orthodox Church are Freemasons, even high ranking clergymen.  It is scandalous, but lots of people live in defiance of the Church's teaching.  All sin is scandalous. 

But the site shows points of ecumenical Patriarchs being Freemasons.  (It's not just his site, but links to several sites along with photos). 

[yeshuaisiam]

Do masonic lodge memberships lie?

Of course they do. The Masons are Jewish reptilians from the space that want to chip us in order to take control over the world. They have already infiltrated all the governments and religious organisations and media and everything.

The problem with your statement is that you lump together obvious delusional issues, with real ones.  The reptilian (David Ike) issues (clearly delusional), RFID chipping issues (people would never accept), and Jewish Zionism are different.

Masonry is a very secret organization and there are lodges in ALMOST every small town in America.  The entire US government is embedded with Freemasons.  The Freemasons text "morals and dogma" by Albert Pike directly call Lucifer the "God of Masonry".   Even presidents of past have spoken against the Masons and how they have a grasp on the government.

Even the White House in Washington D.C. is built on the base of a Masonic Eastern Star Pentagram - http://maps.google.com/maps?q=20500&hl=en&ll=38.89945,-77.03373&spn=0.031662,0.084543&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=33.02306,86.572266&hnear=Washington,+District+of+Columbia+20500&t=k&z=14

To make a mixture of Freemasonry along with clear delusional conspiracy and to add in semi backed conspiratorial issues is either a joke, or a horrible attempt to discredit the Freemason "conspiracy".   I haven't met a reptilian, but masons are all over the place.  LOL

Now with that said, I don't think it would be impossible for many of the upper clergy of the EO church to be Freemasons.

I find some of the photographs pretty amazing, and would not doubt that Masonry is behind the ecumenism movement as Masonry accepts all faiths under "one God".   

I like to keep an open mind when dealing with these issues.  Some of them are very real, and there are many EO brothers and sisters who will testify to them.

[vamrat]

I would take anything from a website which blasts the Boyscouts as being "masonic" with a grain of salt, and perhaps a bottle or five of absinthe.

Dude, that will kill you, bro.  Kill you dead.



As for the OP, I'm not sure masonry is something Orthodox folks should get into.  My Priest is very opposed to it.  That's enough for me. 

[PeterTheAleut]

Do the photos lie though?  Do masonic lodge memberships lie?

When John Alden compiles them and interprets them for us (by telling us that the photos represent connections to Freemasonry when they could really be of anything, even something totally unrelated to Freemasonry), then maybe they do lie.

Like Bishops in front of Obelisks?

So a bishop stands in front of the Washington Monument? Why is that such a big deal?

BTW, I'd like to know where you see that picture, because it certainly isn't on the Web page you linked in your OP.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

So what exactly is the problem with Masonry?

I'm not an expert on Masonry, but my own opinion is that Christians should not be involved in any type of "secret society" that involves oaths, pledges, swearings, etc. The reason is because I believe such organizations and groups are essentially counterfeit replacements of The Church. Such groups usually promise the hope of unity, fraternity, brotherhood, the accomplishing of certain goals (which are often quite noble goals), solidarity, etc. In other words, they offer things that can only truly and authentically be found in and through the Church. Also, such groups can often instill a sense of superiority and foster prejudice. "Our fraternity is the best." "We are special because we are part of this select, secret organization." etc.

Certainly, some secret organizations are more nefarious than others. Skull and Bones and Free Masonry are probably more frought with subversive doctrines and evil ideas than the average college fraternity. But as a personal rule, I eschew any involvement in groups or organizations that involve secret pledges and such. If we are part of The Church, then what more do we need to be a part of? What do these organizations and groups offer us that we cannot find in and through the Church? Whatever they offer that the Church does not is at best superfluous to our salvation, and at worst detrimental to it.


Selam

[Basil 320]

Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.

[PeterTheAleut]

Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.

Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic.

[primuspilus]

Freemasonry does have a past connected with Luciferianism. I think Albert Pike wrote about that. He was a really high level Mason.

Lets not forget Lodge Propaganda Due. That made international headlines, and I think some RC bishops got caught up in it.

PP

[recent convert]

I know where I live,  for almost a century, there have been Masonic lodges & Orthodox Churches within walking distance of another  that will probably fold from mutual declining membership. There will probably a growth in mosque formation though. When we are under sharia we will still be concerned about fweemasons & whistlers.

[podkarpatska]

This piece on the old Masonic Temple in my hometown is as good a rebuttal to all of the conspiracy minded folks out there. Old guys with funny hats and secret oaths.....I don't think they are nearing their hopes of global domination. By the way, is it a shock to anyone that the founding fathers of the USA, given a chance to build a national capitol out of a swamp - built in the century following Peter the Great's icon to his ambition - St. Petersburg - that they would want a design intended to evoke the aspirations and promise of the American Revolution and the potential of the Republic which it led to? Get real.

http://nyslandmarks.com/treasures/08oct.htm

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention their vehicle designed for moving their troops into place -  Shriner minicycles.

[yeshuaisiam]

I would take anything from a website which blasts the Boyscouts as being "masonic" with a grain of salt, and perhaps a bottle or five of absinthe.

Dude, that will kill you, bro.  Kill you dead.



As for the OP, I'm not sure masonry is something Orthodox folks should get into.  My Priest is very opposed to it.  That's enough for me. 

The funny thing is, the Boy Scouts were founded in Masonry, and their ceremonies mimic masonic ceremonies and the "prayers" are to "universal gods", but this is besides the point.

[yeshuaisiam]

Do the photos lie though?  Do masonic lodge memberships lie?

When John Alden compiles them and interprets them for us (by telling us that the photos represent connections to Freemasonry when they could really be of anything, even something totally unrelated to Freemasonry), then maybe they do lie.

Like Bishops in front of Obelisks?

So a bishop stands in front of the Washington Monument? Why is that such a big deal?

BTW, I'd like to know where you see that picture, because it certainly isn't on the Web page you linked in your OP.

Sorry was a different site, was the Vatican Obelisk.

Of course there are more shocking things than standing in front of an obelisk.

One look at the Mitre and you see the Eagles of "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike.  Ironic photo too, since many hold ecumenism as Masonic.


Remember, in Morals and Dogma, "Lucifer" is literally referred to as "The God of Freemasonry".

[yeshuaisiam]

Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.

Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic.

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

[yeshuaisiam]

You know, I think that some folks spend way too much time watching stupid programs on the so-called "History Channel" and its sister networks for their own good. They had a really stupid one on Masonry yesterday which I watched for about 10 minutes on their 'Americas Book of Secrets' series. Same old, same old...shocking promos, five minutes of teasing, a minute of 'information', a commercial break, a rehash of the previous segment and a clip from some self-professed 'expert'. Just like 'Ancient Aliens.'

Reading is a far better pursuit.

Yeah I know.  One of 1000 reasons we don't have TV at our home.

[yeshuaisiam]

So what exactly is the problem with Masonry?

It's a Luciferian church, admitted in their own books, mirrored in their rituals, and extremely secretive on the upper levels.

[yeshuaisiam]

So what exactly is the problem with Masonry?

Orthodox prefer log-built structures.

Har har har. Seriously though, I think it's all the secretive stuff and the stuff that blends religions or ecumenizes things, or something along those lines. I know ROCOR officially condemned it in the 20th century, did anyone else?

LOL, many Orthodox do, as well as condemn Masonry.

[yeshuaisiam]

This piece on the old Masonic Temple in my hometown is as good a rebuttal to all of the conspiracy minded folks out there. Old guys with funny hats and secret oaths.....I don't think they are nearing their hopes of global domination. By the way, is it a shock to anyone that the founding fathers of the USA, given a chance to build a national capitol out of a swamp - built in the century following Peter the Great's icon to his ambition - St. Petersburg - that they would want a design intended to evoke the aspirations and promise of the American Revolution and the potential of the Republic which it led to? Get real.

http://nyslandmarks.com/treasures/08oct.htm

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention their vehicle designed for moving their troops into place -  Shriner minicycles.

Yeah... You know.... Those little Masons....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/crf/286733624/
http://vigilantcitizen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/egypt41.jpg

Of course... Not including the google map link I posted above where the Eastern Star is ridden in the streets of Washington D.C.  (This is in museums in D.C. where they talked about the street design too).

Global dominance.... Of course not.... Political figures across the globe... No way.  Religious personages & clergy... How could it be?

I'm not trying to be rude to you, but Masonry is extremely powerful and is involved in governments and religious institutions worldwide.  1 lodge going down does not speak for the broad spectrum of Masonry.

Again, I DON'T support everything on the OP, but I believe the site shows definite Masonic personages involved in EO clergy & churches.

[JamesRottnek]

Have you ever been diagnosed with a psychiatric condition that leads one to have paranoid fantasies?

Even though rules are more loosely applied here than on other sections, we do not tolerate ad hominem attacks. In this instance, JamesRottneck is implying that the arguments made by another poster should be discounted because the person putting forth the argument may have paranoid delusions. He is not attacking the argument put forth; instead he is attacking the potential mental stability of the person with which he is arguing. Therefore, JamesRottnek is warned for 14 days. James--if you disagree, please free to contact Fr George or Fr Chris. Second Chance

 

[primuspilus]

I also think that Masons have nefarious purposes. I leave it simply at that.

PP

[Aram]

I would take anything from a website which blasts the Boyscouts as being "masonic" with a grain of salt, and perhaps a bottle or five of absinthe.

Dude, that will kill you, bro.  Kill you dead.



As for the OP, I'm not sure masonry is something Orthodox folks should get into.  My Priest is very opposed to it.  That's enough for me. 

The funny thing is, the Boy Scouts were founded in Masonry, and their ceremonies mimic masonic ceremonies and the "prayers" are to "universal gods", but this is besides the point.

What "ceremonies" would those be?  The BSA doesn't have set ceremonies for anything.  Prayers are not to "universal gods," but rather are worded in such a way so that each boy (or girl, for Ventures) is able to conceptualize it to their own particular mode of belief.  Scouting is a multi-faith movement that only requires of its members (at least in America) that one believes in some form of higher power.

[NicholasMyra]

OP doesn't know anything about freemasonry.

[FormerReformer]

OP doesn't know anything about freemasonry.

Or the Boyscouts.

[JamesRottnek]

OP doesn't know anything about freemasonry.

Or the Boyscouts.

Or the double-headed eagle.

[podkarpatska]

My family is in the line. I think we are doomed, I say!

[podkarpatska]

OP doesn't know anything about freemasonry.

Or the Boyscouts.

So, according to the OP, we are to believe that the Bishops,priests, lay advisors, parents and scouts who are dedicated to the Eastern Orthodox Committee on Scouting are actually minions of Lucifer? http://eocs.org/  Back to that bridge in Brooklyn folks.....

The reptillian thing is a better cover, don't you think?

[Cavaradossi]

I have definitive proof that Yeshuaisiam is a masonic spy. If you will just look at these grainy photographs and lodge membership lists (which you have no way to verify), I think you will find it to be incontrovertible evidence for my claim.

Also, the Pope worships Satan (why else would you think he has an upside-down cross on his chair?).

[yeshuaisiam]

I would take anything from a website which blasts the Boyscouts as being "masonic" with a grain of salt, and perhaps a bottle or five of absinthe.

Dude, that will kill you, bro.  Kill you dead.



As for the OP, I'm not sure masonry is something Orthodox folks should get into.  My Priest is very opposed to it.  That's enough for me. 

The funny thing is, the Boy Scouts were founded in Masonry, and their ceremonies mimic masonic ceremonies and the "prayers" are to "universal gods", but this is besides the point.

What "ceremonies" would those be?  The BSA doesn't have set ceremonies for anything.  Prayers are not to "universal gods," but rather are worded in such a way so that each boy (or girl, for Ventures) is able to conceptualize it to their own particular mode of belief.  Scouting is a multi-faith movement that only requires of its members (at least in America) that one believes in some form of higher power.

Blue and Gold ceremony for instance & Osiris worship (google it).   Yes, I agree with you, and stand corrected to the way I erroneously phrased it.  The prayers are worded in a way to so that the child can perceive it in their own belief. 

As in Masonry on lower levels (like common lodges) they do the same thing.

Of course I'm not calling all the boy scouts evil & wicked, nor is it really the point of the thread, I'm just saying that the link provided (which I don't entirely agree with, but has very interesting and controversial information) that the author was "bashed" because of his claims on the boy scouts being masonic.  I just don't think it would be absolutely fair to discredit all his points based on his Boy Scout information as it definitely has some validity.

[yeshuaisiam]

OP doesn't know anything about freemasonry.

I don't think that's fair NicholasMyra.  You don't know me personally.  I've studied Masonry for quite some time now.  I've read Morals and Dogma, interviewed Masons, given speeches on Masonry to Christians, argued with Masons in person & online, and also had a nice LONG talk with the founder of the freemasonrywatch.org web site.

If you would like I could give you some information, links, videos, and/or mail you informational packets on Freemasonry.

[yeshuaisiam]

My family is in the line. I think we are doomed, I say!

Guys, I'm not in entire agreement with the OP link, I just think it has some interested "facts" which I was hoping people could expand on if they had any information.

BTW, the Obelisk (Washington  Monument) is an Egyptian Phallic Symbol.   

(This other info on the Washington Monument that comes from MANY web sites, and not from me as I have never measured it)
Its base walls are 55.5 feet wide which is 666 inches.
Its 555 feet high, with 111 feet under ground for support.  (Total 666 feet)
Its 6660 inches tall (above ground).

[yeshuaisiam]

OP doesn't know anything about freemasonry.

Or the Boyscouts.

So, according to the OP, we are to believe that the Bishops,priests, lay advisors, parents and scouts who are dedicated to the Eastern Orthodox Committee on Scouting are actually minions of Lucifer? http://eocs.org/  Back to that bridge in Brooklyn folks.....

The reptillian thing is a better cover, don't you think?

NO!!!!

According to the link provided in the ORIGINAL POST, you are to believe the statement you made.

I don't entirely support it, but was hoping people could expand.   Some of the information is very factual, other information I have not heard about.

[yeshuaisiam]

I have definitive proof that Yeshuaisiam is a masonic spy. If you will just look at these grainy photographs and lodge membership lists (which you have no way to verify), I think you will find it to be incontrovertible evidence for my claim.

Also, the Pope worships Satan (why else would you think he has an upside-down cross on his chair?).

I'm curious how me posting a link and never fully supporting his claim turned into a bash session.

BTW, I don't know if you were being sarcastic, but the upside down cross is from Peter's crucifixion and the vicar stuff....

[yeshuaisiam]

OP doesn't know anything about freemasonry.

Or the Boyscouts.

Or the double-headed eagle.

Forgive me if you are correct.

Again, I don't condone everything in the link.  I think there are interesting facts.  I was hoping for expansion, insight, and if anybody had more information.   

I know that many members in Orthodoxy believe that Masonry is Satanic/Luciferian, that Synods and many Bishops have condemned it.  I've also known clergy (several Deacons and 2 priests) who were Masons.  It was the "lower" town type of Mason though. 

This does not invalidate Orthodoxy at all, but if these Bishops/Patriarchs/Clergy are involved in Masonry, I believe it to at least be a huge conflict of interest.  But I don't know if they absolutely are.  The original post has a link that presented some information, and I am curious if anybody else has more information or could expand on the info presented.   Which would work both ways - in support or against.  Not looking for personal bashing of the author of the site, as that does not exactly expand on the info or invalidate the points presented.

[Sauron]

Hello!

As can be read to the left, I have been an Orthodox inquirer for about a year. I am also a Freemason and in fact, am the master of my lodge this year. I do intend to disclose my membership to my priest, and if he should say that I must demit in order to join the church, I would obey.

However, whenever these discussions come up, I find that they are often based on a bunch of hooey. In my experience, Masonry (at least in the United States) is a fraternal service organization. Far from being deist, it is overly biblical and in fact, Christian. Some facts of note:

* the three Masonic degrees are based on the building of King Solomon's temple
* each of the degrees features readings from the Bible. For example, Psalm 133.
* upon initiation, a new Mason is taught that the Holy Bible is a great light and is told "The Holy Bible is dedicated to the service of God, for it is the inestimable gift of God to man, and the rule and guide to His faith and practice"
* a Holy Bible is placed open upon the table in the middle of the lodge room. The meeting cannot take place if the Bible is not open upon the table.
* every lodge meeting is opened with a prayer that says "you have promised that when three or more are gathered in your name, you will be among them". These are Christ's words.
* every lodge is dedicated to St. John the Apostle and St. John the Forerunner. In fact, the Masonic year begins on December 27, the day of St. John the Apostle.

These are just off the top of my head, but I find the fraternity to be quite Christian.

Now, a word on secrecy. The secrets of Masonry are basically "the secret handshake". Otherwise, things are open. My lodge is a registered non-for-profit corporation, for crying out loud, so of course we would need to open the books for an audit.

I recently explained the "secrecy" to a new applicant. He was worried about what he could ask or what I could tell him. I explained to him, "It is the same as if I were to ask you about the business you run. You would probably tell me about what you do, who works there, how long you have been in business, and that sort of thing. In fact, you would probably tell me pretty much everything I asked. But, I bet you wouldn't let me peek at your bank records or attend a meeting of your board of directors."

Secrecy, by itself, is not bad. Accountants maintain the confidentiality of their client's finances. Husbands and wives do not discuss their marital relations with others. Most people do not discuss their salaries at parties.

In my opinion, if someone is to have an opinion, that person has a duty to make it an informed one. I will answer any question that anyone might have about Freemasonry, if anyone should care to ask.

[username!]

OP doesn't know anything about freemasonry.

Or the Boyscouts.

Or the double-headed eagle.

Forgive me if you are correct.

Again, I don't condone everything in the link.  I think there are interesting facts.  I was hoping for expansion, insight, and if anybody had more information.   

I know that many members in Orthodoxy believe that Masonry is Satanic/Luciferian, that Synods and many Bishops have condemned it.  I've also known clergy (several Deacons and 2 priests) who were Masons.  It was the "lower" town type of Mason though. 

This does not invalidate Orthodoxy at all, but if these Bishops/Patriarchs/Clergy are involved in Masonry, I believe it to at least be a huge conflict of interest.  But I don't know if they absolutely are.  The original post has a link that presented some information, and I am curious if anybody else has more information or could expand on the info presented.   Which would work both ways - in support or against.  Not looking for personal bashing of the author of the site, as that does not exactly expand on the info or invalidate the points presented.

what is the "lower town type" of masonry mean?  There is the York Rite and the Scottish Rite in the USA. 

[username!]

I don't think the masons are anymore mysterious than the knights of columbus.  It is just that writing books on freemasonry lately is more profitable.  the funny thing is all the speculation online, offline, on tv, in a book, in the news, on a tv programme with someone wearing sunglasses reporting to know that in the 33rd degree you actually have to sacrifice a hamster.. is just speculation.

I remember when I was the highest degree in a particular Roman Catholic fraternity and every year the bishop would send a letter for the chaplain to read at the meetings would basically state that anyone that was a member of the masons or not Roman Catholic could not be a member of this organization.

I don't understand though because the bishop went on the state that the Roman Catholic organizations were acceptable because they weren't secret societies.

However, I was sworn to secrecy about each degree ritual I went through in two different Roman Catholic fraternal organizations over the years.  Secret rituals, secret lessons, secret passwords to get into the meetings, secret handshakes. 

It's fun really, and I don't care what anyone says.  Unless you've been through degree rituals you wouldn't understand.  No one gets hurt.  No one pledges allegiance to Egyptian Goddesses. 
I'd say University and it's brash atheism is much more dangerous to your soul than getting together with a bunch of your friends and raising money for the poor.

No I'm not a mason nor am I or am I able to be a member of the Roman Catholic fraternal organizations since I haven't been Greek Catholic for many years now.  But I'm just saying the one local priest here was a Freemason, and a visit to many Orthodox cemeteries will find the Freemason compass on many a gravestone.  Remember Orthodox cemeteries are not in the business of burying non-Orthodox.

[username!]

Hello!

As can be read to the left, I have been an Orthodox inquirer for about a year. I am also a Freemason and in fact, am the master of my lodge this year. I do intend to disclose my membership to my priest, and if he should say that I must demit in order to join the church, I would obey.

However, whenever these discussions come up, I find that they are often based on a bunch of hooey. In my experience, Masonry (at least in the United States) is a fraternal service organization. Far from being deist, it is overly biblical and in fact, Christian. Some facts of note:

* the three Masonic degrees are based on the building of King Solomon's temple
* each of the degrees features readings from the Bible. For example, Psalm 133.
* upon initiation, a new Mason is taught that the Holy Bible is a great light and is told "The Holy Bible is dedicated to the service of God, for it is the inestimable gift of God to man, and the rule and guide to His faith and practice"
* a Holy Bible is placed open upon the table in the middle of the lodge room. The meeting cannot take place if the Bible is not open upon the table.
* every lodge meeting is opened with a prayer that says "you have promised that when three or more are gathered in your name, you will be among them". These are Christ's words.
* every lodge is dedicated to St. John the Apostle and St. John the Forerunner. In fact, the Masonic year begins on December 27, the day of St. John the Apostle.

These are just off the top of my head, but I find the fraternity to be quite Christian.

Now, a word on secrecy. The secrets of Masonry are basically "the secret handshake". Otherwise, things are open. My lodge is a registered non-for-profit corporation, for crying out loud, so of course we would need to open the books for an audit.

I recently explained the "secrecy" to a new applicant. He was worried about what he could ask or what I could tell him. I explained to him, "It is the same as if I were to ask you about the business you run. You would probably tell me about what you do, who works there, how long you have been in business, and that sort of thing. In fact, you would probably tell me pretty much everything I asked. But, I bet you wouldn't let me peek at your bank records or attend a meeting of your board of directors."

Secrecy, by itself, is not bad. Accountants maintain the confidentiality of their client's finances. Husbands and wives do not discuss their marital relations with others. Most people do not discuss their salaries at parties.

In my opinion, if someone is to have an opinion, that person has a duty to make it an informed one. I will answer any question that anyone might have about Freemasonry, if anyone should care to ask.

That's just thing thing, I'm not a mason and I would bet you a fistful of cadbury eggs that there is no secret agenda, no one has to sacrifice a guinea pig to isis while wearing a wig.. etc.. there is no masonic conspiracy to over-take the world. 
Actually the state in which I live, the masons donate close to a million dollars a day to children's hospitals, and a past-master told me that and I've known him for years.  He has no reason to lie to me, he's a nice guy and he's known my family since Moses wore short pants.

[Deacon Lance]

I would take anything from a website which blasts the Boyscouts as being "masonic" with a grain of salt, and perhaps a bottle or five of absinthe.

Dude, that will kill you, bro.  Kill you dead.



As for the OP, I'm not sure masonry is something Orthodox folks should get into.  My Priest is very opposed to it.  That's enough for me. 

The funny thing is, the Boy Scouts were founded in Masonry, and their ceremonies mimic masonic ceremonies and the "prayers" are to "universal gods", but this is besides the point.

No, no, and no.  Get your facts straight.

[Deacon Lance]

Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.

Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic.

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

Lord Baden-Powell was not a Mason.  The sites you link to are simply lying.  You say you believe Boy Scouts have Masonic ceremonies.  I ask why is that?  Have you been a Boy Scout?  Have you attened any of their ceremonies?  If not what do you base your beliefs on? 

That said Masonic Lodges may sponsor packs and troops, but so may Mormons, Buddhists, and  Muslims.  Scouting is a program of citizenship and outdoorsmanship.  Scouts are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same.

[Aram]

Again, considering the Boy Scouts (at least in America) do not have codified ceremonies for anything, and leave the actual processes of doing things like bestowing awards, ranks, honors, and leadership positions strictly to the discretion and design of individual units, councils, etc., there is absolutely zero credibility to the notion that Scouting has any kind of "Masonic ritual" or associated aspect therein.  It simply does not exist.

[username!]

Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.

Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic.

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

Lord Baden-Powell was not a Mason.  The sites you link to are simply lying.  You say you believe Boy Scouts have Masonic ceremonies.  I ask why is that?  Have you been a Boy Scout?  Have you attened any of their ceremonies?  If not what do you base your beliefs on? 

That said Masonic Lodges may sponsor packs and troops, but so may Mormons, Buddhists, and  Muslims.  Scouting is a program of citizenship and outdoorsmanship.  Scouts are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same.

Not saying scouts are masons, but masons are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same....
Again, one of the things people get all conspiracy theory-ized about... scouts are scouts, masons are masons and snow is snow. 

[Deacon Lance]

Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.

Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic.

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

Lord Baden-Powell was not a Mason.  The sites you link to are simply lying.  You say you believe Boy Scouts have Masonic ceremonies.  I ask why is that?  Have you been a Boy Scout?  Have you attened any of their ceremonies?  If not what do you base your beliefs on? 

That said Masonic Lodges may sponsor packs and troops, but so may Mormons, Buddhists, and  Muslims.  Scouting is a program of citizenship and outdoorsmanship.  Scouts are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same.

Not saying scouts are masons, but masons are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same....
Again, one of the things people get all conspiracy theory-ized about... scouts are scouts, masons are masons and snow is snow. 

But Mason take oaths that place Masonry above all else.  Cut throats and all that for revealing the secret handshake and whatnot.  I know your average local Mason doesn't take it seriously but still...

[Sauron]

Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.

Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic.

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

Lord Baden-Powell was not a Mason.  The sites you link to are simply lying.  You say you believe Boy Scouts have Masonic ceremonies.  I ask why is that?  Have you been a Boy Scout?  Have you attened any of their ceremonies?  If not what do you base your beliefs on? 

That said Masonic Lodges may sponsor packs and troops, but so may Mormons, Buddhists, and  Muslims.  Scouting is a program of citizenship and outdoorsmanship.  Scouts are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same.

Not saying scouts are masons, but masons are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same....
Again, one of the things people get all conspiracy theory-ized about... scouts are scouts, masons are masons and snow is snow. 

But Mason take oaths that place Masonry above all else.  Cut throats and all that for revealing the secret handshake and whatnot.  I know your average local Mason doesn't take it seriously but still...

Forgive me, but this is not accurate. It is specifically instructed that the obligations are not to conflict with one's "civil, moral, or religious duties or privileges".

It is true that the obligations have the stated penalties of having one's throat cut and the like. When I was a child, I think I also said, "cross my heart and hope to die, stick a needle in my eye".

[LizaSymonenko]

Being a "member" of Christ's True Church should be enough for anyone. 

[JamesRottnek]

Being a "member" of Christ's True Church should be enough for anyone. 

Then don't join the local PTA, don't vote for a candidate for Mayor, don't work at a company, have no friends outside the Church, don't subscribe to magazines, and certainly don't register with a political party.

[Sauron]

Being a "member" of Christ's True Church should be enough for anyone. 

Aren't you a member of this forum?

[yeshuaisiam]

I would take anything from a website which blasts the Boyscouts as being "masonic" with a grain of salt, and perhaps a bottle or five of absinthe.

Dude, that will kill you, bro.  Kill you dead.



As for the OP, I'm not sure masonry is something Orthodox folks should get into.  My Priest is very opposed to it.  That's enough for me. 

The funny thing is, the Boy Scouts were founded in Masonry, and their ceremonies mimic masonic ceremonies and the "prayers" are to "universal gods", but this is besides the point.

No, no, and no.  Get your facts straight.

The problem with just saying no and telling somebody to get their facts straight doesn't prove a point.  I quoted stuff from the boy scouts saying they were originated in masons.  However, this is BESIDES the point.  It is about Orthodox or rather "high ranking" orthodox involved in Masonry.

[yeshuaisiam]

Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.

Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic.

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

Lord Baden-Powell was not a Mason.  The sites you link to are simply lying.  You say you believe Boy Scouts have Masonic ceremonies.  I ask why is that?  Have you been a Boy Scout?  Have you attened any of their ceremonies?  If not what do you base your beliefs on? 

That said Masonic Lodges may sponsor packs and troops, but so may Mormons, Buddhists, and  Muslims.  Scouting is a program of citizenship and outdoorsmanship.  Scouts are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same.

Not saying scouts are masons, but masons are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same....
Again, one of the things people get all conspiracy theory-ized about... scouts are scouts, masons are masons and snow is snow. 

But Mason take oaths that place Masonry above all else.  Cut throats and all that for revealing the secret handshake and whatnot.  I know your average local Mason doesn't take it seriously but still...

Forgive me, but this is not accurate. It is specifically instructed that the obligations are not to conflict with one's "civil, moral, or religious duties or privileges".

It is true that the obligations have the stated penalties of having one's throat cut and the like. When I was a child, I think I also said, "cross my heart and hope to die, stick a needle in my eye".

Taking any oath (and Masons SWEAR blood oaths) is against the scriptures.   The masonic oaths are above all other oaths.

[yeshuaisiam]

Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.

Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic.

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

Lord Baden-Powell was not a Mason.  The sites you link to are simply lying.  You say you believe Boy Scouts have Masonic ceremonies.  I ask why is that?  Have you been a Boy Scout?  Have you attened any of their ceremonies?  If not what do you base your beliefs on?  

That said Masonic Lodges may sponsor packs and troops, but so may Mormons, Buddhists, and  Muslims.  Scouting is a program of citizenship and outdoorsmanship.  Scouts are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same.

Deacon Lance, my brother, just read the links.  One talks about the scouts foundation in Masonry.  Yes I was a scout though unfortunately.  There were many ceremonies (blue and gold) and candle lit ceremonies.  The God spoken about in Masonry is meant to depict the scouts beliefs.  This is what lower level masons do as well.   

HOWEVER, the Boy Scouts are NOT important to this thread.   High ranking Orthodox clergy are listed.

[LizaSymonenko]

Being a "member" of Christ's True Church should be enough for anyone. 

Aren't you a member of this forum?

I didn't have to swear an oath to be a member of this forum.  Did you?

Besides, this Forum is a tool to teach others about Orthodoxy, and is used to strengthen and grow the Church, not preach against it.

Being a "member" of Christ's True Church should be enough for anyone. 

Then don't join the local PTA, don't vote for a candidate for Mayor, don't work at a company, have no friends outside the Church, don't subscribe to magazines, and certainly don't register with a political party.

....again I didn't have to swear allegiance to my boss, in order to get the job, nor to the publisher when I bought a magazine....and I am not registered with any political party.  I vote for the candidate whom I believe will lead this nation to live by God's standards.

So, for those who "know" so much about this organization....what is the benefit of joining?

Does it promise eternal salvation, or simply materialism, and more success in the present?

I believe in the One True God, and I belong to the One True Church....and that's enough for me.  I'm not going to live forever, and all my worldly possessions and successes will not follow me in to the next world.

[Sauron]

Taking any oath (and Masons SWEAR blood oaths) is against the scriptures.   The masonic oaths are above all other oaths.

What is a "blood oath"?

I don't know what you mean when you say "masonic oaths are above all other oaths". It is specifically instructed that the oaths are never to conflict with one's "civil, moral, or religious duties or privileges".

[yeshuaisiam]

Being a "member" of Christ's True Church should be enough for anyone. 

Aren't you a member of this forum?

I didn't have to swear an oath to be a member of this forum.  Did you?

Besides, this Forum is a tool to teach others about Orthodoxy, and is used to strengthen and grow the Church, not preach against it.

Being a "member" of Christ's True Church should be enough for anyone. 

Then don't join the local PTA, don't vote for a candidate for Mayor, don't work at a company, have no friends outside the Church, don't subscribe to magazines, and certainly don't register with a political party.

....again I didn't have to swear allegiance to my boss, in order to get the job, nor to the publisher when I bought a magazine....and I am not registered with any political party.  I vote for the candidate whom I believe will lead this nation to live by God's standards.

So, for those who "know" so much about this organization....what is the benefit of joining?

Does it promise eternal salvation, or simply materialism, and more success in the present?

I believe in the One True God, and I belong to the One True Church....and that's enough for me.  I'm not going to live forever, and all my worldly possessions and successes will not follow me in to the next world.

I find LizaSymonenko's post to hold pretty good insight on the topic at hand.  There is a large difference between being and Orthodox Christian & a Mason.  

For instance, there are no blood oaths to get into Orthodoxy.  You aren't presented with a blindfold, a knife to your chest, and swear to have your throat cut if your SWORN OATH is broken.  Orthodoxy (for converts for instance) wishes for your beliefs, to renounce other beliefs etc. and wants your dedication to the church.  

I do find it kind of interesting how some Orthodox seem to somewhat "don't mind" Freemasonry, some find it a conflict, and some see it as the church of Lucifer.   (I've always seen Freemasonry as the church of Lucifer myself).

[Sauron]

Being a "member" of Christ's True Church should be enough for anyone. 

Aren't you a member of this forum?

I didn't have to swear an oath to be a member of this forum.  Did you?

Besides, this Forum is a tool to teach others about Orthodoxy, and is used to strengthen and grow the Church, not preach against it.

That wasn't what you said. You said, "Being a "member" of Christ's True Church should be enough for anyone.", the implication being that a Christian should not be a member of any other organization. I think you would agree that is a silly thing to say.

....again I didn't have to swear allegiance to my boss, in order to get the job, nor to the publisher when I bought a magazine....and I am not registered with any political party.  I vote for the candidate whom I believe will lead this nation to live by God's standards.

So, for those who "know" so much about this organization....what is the benefit of joining?

Does it promise eternal salvation, or simply materialism, and more success in the present?

I believe in the One True God, and I belong to the One True Church....and that's enough for me.  I'm not going to live forever, and all my worldly possessions and successes will not follow me in to the next world.

So what? Your previous comment which disdained memberships of all sort made no mention of swearing allegiance. However, as a lawyer, I can tell you that you certainly owe your employer a duty of loyalty i.e. you owe your employer your allegiance.

I know so much about Masonry because I I have been a member for five years. It makes no promises to anyone anymore than the Rotary club makes promises. As to the benefits, like any association, one gets out of it what one puts into it (I think the same can be said of the Church). If one simply pays dues once a year, probably not much. Speaking for myself, I have had the opportunity to participate in worthy charity work, develop public speaking and management skills, and make a few good friends.

[yeshuaisiam]

Taking any oath (and Masons SWEAR blood oaths) is against the scriptures.   The masonic oaths are above all other oaths.

What is a "blood oath"?

I don't know what you mean when you say "masonic oaths are above all other oaths". It is specifically instructed that the oaths are never to conflict with one's "civil, moral, or religious duties or privileges".

Hi Sauron,

The entered apprentice (the Freemason Newbies swear this)
    "To all of which I do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, without any hesitation, mental reservation, or secret evasion of mind in me whatsoever; binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having….

    Entered Apprentice Degree: "..my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and with my body buried in the sands of the sea at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four hours, should I ever knowingly or willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of an Entered Apprentice."

The next rank Fellow Craft Degree: "..my left breast torn open, my heart and vitals taken thence, and with my body given as a prey to the vultures of the air, should I ever knowingly, or willfully, violate this, my solemn Obligation of a Fellow Craft.";

The next rank Master Mason Degree: "..my body severed in twain, my bowels taken thence, and with my body burned to ashes, and the ashes thereof scattered to the four winds of Heaven, that there might remain neither track, trace nor remembrance among man or Masons of so vile and perjured a wretch as I should be, should I ever knowingly or willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of a Master Mason."

Now those 3 ranks are what "common lodges" swear.    These are blood oaths, and Masons hold these oaths above all other oaths.  Morals and Dogma (the book by Albert Pike) wrote how these oaths take priority over all others.

If the link in the original post is correct, EO Christians should know better than to swear something like all the above ranks.

[Maria]

I talked with a member of the Greek Orthodox Church (GOARCH) who is a 33rd degree Mason.

Someone in the parish sponsored him and paid for his membership and all the orientation fees.
He told us that he has not been back to the lodge as he feels very uncomfortable.

Oh, and he was wearing a masonic ring and a masonic lapel pin.

[Sauron]

For instance, there are no blood oaths to get into Orthodoxy.  You aren't presented with a blindfold, a knife to your chest, and swear to have your throat cut if your SWORN OATH is broken.  Orthodoxy (for converts for instance) wishes for your beliefs, to renounce other beliefs etc. and wants your dedication to the church.  

I do find it kind of interesting how some Orthodox seem to somewhat "don't mind" Freemasonry, some find it a conflict, and some see it as the church of Lucifer.   (I've always seen Freemasonry as the church of Lucifer myself).

False. A knife is not used during any of the degrees. The candidate does not have a knife held to his chest. In fact, nothing of an "offensive or defensive nature" is allowed in a lodge. Where do you get your information? It is quite mistaken.

Again, what is a "blood oath"?

[yeshuaisiam]

For instance, there are no blood oaths to get into Orthodoxy.  You aren't presented with a blindfold, a knife to your chest, and swear to have your throat cut if your SWORN OATH is broken.  Orthodoxy (for converts for instance) wishes for your beliefs, to renounce other beliefs etc. and wants your dedication to the church.  

I do find it kind of interesting how some Orthodox seem to somewhat "don't mind" Freemasonry, some find it a conflict, and some see it as the church of Lucifer.   (I've always seen Freemasonry as the church of Lucifer myself).

False. A knife is not used during any of the degrees. The candidate does not have a knife held to his chest. In fact, nothing of an "offensive or defensive nature" is allowed in a lodge. Where do you get your information? It is quite mistaken.

Again, what is a "blood oath"?

Entered Apprentice initiation photo:


A blood oath is when you swear on your life or blood.

FROM MORALS AND DOGMA PAGE 321 & 324 (This is a HIGH RANKING MASON WHO WROTE THIS)
"The MASONIC RELIGION should be, by all of us of the high degree, maintained in the purity of the LUCIFERIAN doctrine If Lucifer were not god, would Adonay (sic) whose deeds prove his cruelty, perfidy and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and his priests calumniate him?

Yes, LUCIFER IS GOD, and unfortunately Adonay is also god...
Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is a heresy; and the true and pure philosophical religion is the BELIEF IN LUCIFER, THE EQUAL OF ADONAY but Lucifer, God of Light and God of GOOD, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the GOD OF DARKNESS AND EVIL.”

Not trying to pick on anybody, just reaching out a loving hand to inform.

[Sauron]

Taking any oath (and Masons SWEAR blood oaths) is against the scriptures.   The masonic oaths are above all other oaths.

What is a "blood oath"?

I don't know what you mean when you say "masonic oaths are above all other oaths". It is specifically instructed that the oaths are never to conflict with one's "civil, moral, or religious duties or privileges".

Hi Sauron,

The entered apprentice (the Freemason Newbies swear this)
    "To all of which I do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, without any hesitation, mental reservation, or secret evasion of mind in me whatsoever; binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having….

    Entered Apprentice Degree: "..my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and with my body buried in the sands of the sea at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four hours, should I ever knowingly or willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of an Entered Apprentice."

The next rank Fellow Craft Degree: "..my left breast torn open, my heart and vitals taken thence, and with my body given as a prey to the vultures of the air, should I ever knowingly, or willfully, violate this, my solemn Obligation of a Fellow Craft.";

The next rank Master Mason Degree: "..my body severed in twain, my bowels taken thence, and with my body burned to ashes, and the ashes thereof scattered to the four winds of Heaven, that there might remain neither track, trace nor remembrance among man or Masons of so vile and perjured a wretch as I should be, should I ever knowingly or willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of a Master Mason."

Now those 3 ranks are what "common lodges" swear.    These are blood oaths, and Masons hold these oaths above all other oaths.  Morals and Dogma (the book by Albert Pike) wrote how these oaths take priority over all others.

If the link in the original post is correct, EO Christians should know better than to swear something like all the above ranks.

The wording is not quite the same as in my jurisdiction, but I have to say those excerpts from the obligations are pretty accurate.

I don't know what a "blood oath" is, but again, it is specifically instructed that the oaths are never to conflict with one's "civil, moral, or religious duties or privileges", so they don't take priority.

Ever say "cross my heart, stick a needle in my eye" as a kid? This is grown-ups saying the same thing.

By the way, did you see my first post in this thread?

[LizaSymonenko]

That wasn't what you said. You said, "Being a "member" of Christ's True Church should be enough for anyone.", the implication being that a Christian should not be a member of any other organization. I think you would agree that is a silly thing to say.

...actually I don't find it silly.  The only "organizations" I belong to are Church based.

I know so much about Masonry because I I have been a member for five years. It makes no promises to anyone anymore than the Rotary club makes promises. As to the benefits, like any association, one gets out of it what one puts into it (I think the same can be said of the Church). If one simply pays dues once a year, probably not much. Speaking for myself, I have had the opportunity to participate in worthy charity work, develop public speaking and management skills, and make a few good friends.

I've made good friends and participated in charitable work through the Church.  No need to join up with some other organization....there's plenty of work to be done within the Church and via the Church.

...and as for the loyalty I "owe" my employer....it only goes so far as not to waste their time or funds, and not to do them harm.  However, the moment my employer makes me do/say something against the Church...I owe them nothing.  I am free to turn and leave.

[Sauron]

For instance, there are no blood oaths to get into Orthodoxy.  You aren't presented with a blindfold, a knife to your chest, and swear to have your throat cut if your SWORN OATH is broken.  Orthodoxy (for converts for instance) wishes for your beliefs, to renounce other beliefs etc. and wants your dedication to the church.  

I do find it kind of interesting how some Orthodox seem to somewhat "don't mind" Freemasonry, some find it a conflict, and some see it as the church of Lucifer.   (I've always seen Freemasonry as the church of Lucifer myself).

False. A knife is not used during any of the degrees. The candidate does not have a knife held to his chest. In fact, nothing of an "offensive or defensive nature" is allowed in a lodge. Where do you get your information? It is quite mistaken.

Again, what is a "blood oath"?

Entered Apprentice initiation photo:


A blood oath is when you swear on your life or blood.

That picture is from a movie on the History Channel or some other such cable network. It is a false dramatization. I truly hope you do not make other decisions based on what you see on tv.

FROM MORALS AND DOGMA PAGE 321 & 324 (This is a HIGH RANKING MASON WHO WROTE THIS)
"The MASONIC RELIGION should be, by all of us of the high degree, maintained in the purity of the LUCIFERIAN doctrine If Lucifer were not god, would Adonay (sic) whose deeds prove his cruelty, perfidy and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and his priests calumniate him?

Yes, LUCIFER IS GOD, and unfortunately Adonay is also god...
Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is a heresy; and the true and pure philosophical religion is the BELIEF IN LUCIFER, THE EQUAL OF ADONAY but Lucifer, God of Light and God of GOOD, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the GOD OF DARKNESS AND EVIL.”

Not trying to pick on anybody, just reaching out a loving hand to inform.

I don't know anything about Albert Pike. What I do know is that no man speaks for Masonry. Also, Pike is really about the Scottish Rite, which is not the same as Freemasonry.

When you type words without finding out if they are true, you are being neither loving nor informative.

[Sauron]

That wasn't what you said. You said, "Being a "member" of Christ's True Church should be enough for anyone.", the implication being that a Christian should not be a member of any other organization. I think you would agree that is a silly thing to say.

...actually I don't find it silly.  The only "organizations" I belong to are Church based.

Oh, so you have renounced your citizenship?

I know so much about Masonry because I I have been a member for five years. It makes no promises to anyone anymore than the Rotary club makes promises. As to the benefits, like any association, one gets out of it what one puts into it (I think the same can be said of the Church). If one simply pays dues once a year, probably not much. Speaking for myself, I have had the opportunity to participate in worthy charity work, develop public speaking and management skills, and make a few good friends.

I've made good friends and participated in charitable work through the Church.  No need to join up with some other organization....there's plenty of work to be done within the Church and via the Church.

...and as for the loyalty I "owe" my employer....it only goes so far as not to waste their time or funds, and not to do them harm.  However, the moment my employer makes me do/say something against the Church...I owe them nothing.  I am free to turn and leave.

I am happy for all of your church activities. However, if someone is a member of the church and also decides to be a member of the Boy Scouts, the Rotary Club, or some other civic service organization, that does not mean they have some gaping spiritual void.

Yes, if you are in a right-to-work state, you can leave whenever you like. However, so long as you are there, you owe a duty of loyalty to your employer.

[LizaSymonenko]

So, Sauron....what about the title "Worshipful Master"?

Shouldn't worship be reserved for God alone?

...or is that just a mere title, as well....just like sticking a needle in one's eye?

[yeshuaisiam]

Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

[yeshuaisiam]

So, Sauron....what about the title "Worshipful Master"?

Shouldn't worship be reserved for God alone?

...or is that just a mere title, as well....just like sticking a needle in one's eye?

(KJV) Matthew 23:

 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

We should call NO man "Master".

[88Devin12]

Does anyone really take Old Believers seriously anymore?

As for that History Channel picture... Does anyone really take the History Channel seriously anymore?

Oh, and I definitely can see the photos from the Old Believer website being in Greek Tabloids rather than reliable newspapers...

If he thinks the Boy Scouts and the Lions Club are masonic, then, well, I just don't know, that's sad...

There are Greek Boy Scouts (though not called that), are THEY masonic as well? LOL

Should Orthodox be freemasons? Certainly not... Does that mean no Orthodox have ever been freemasons? Certainly not...

People who like to think the freemasons are trying to take over the world, or usher in a Satanic one-world religion, one-world government under the Anti-Christ are simply misguided in so many ways. Same goes for those who say the same about the Jews...

[88Devin12]

Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

[Aram]

Deacon Lance, my brother, just read the links.  One talks about the scouts foundation in Masonry.  Yes I was a scout though unfortunately.  There were many ceremonies (blue and gold) and candle lit ceremonies.  The God spoken about in Masonry is meant to depict the scouts beliefs.  This is what lower level masons do as well.   

You keep talking about the Blue and Gold Banquet.

There is NO standard ceremony for the Blue and Gold Banquet, the annual springtime dinner where Cub Scouts get awards from their Pack, maybe watch a magic show or something of the like, and celebrate all they've learned that year.  There is nothing Masonic about it.  Every banquet is different, as each pack has the ability to structure it to their needs, facilities, time constraints, youth members, etc.  And I fail to see how a "candlelit ceremony" is exclusively Masonic.

I grew up in Scouting from Tiger Cubs through my 18th birthday.  I am an Eagle Scout.  As an adult, I'm a scout leader.  Every week, I'm working with young people within the Scouting program.  You are gravely mistaken, and I wish you would refrain from further commentary about Scouting, as it's clear you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

[Sauron]

So, Sauron....what about the title "Worshipful Master"?

Shouldn't worship be reserved for God alone?

...or is that just a mere title, as well....just like sticking a needle in one's eye?

The term "worship" comes from Masonry's origin in England. The term "your worship" is used to address mayors, judges, and other such officials in the UK and in countries that were formerly part of the British Empire. According to you, can a Canadian Christian address the mayor of his town as "Your Worship"? In English, "worship" originally meant "respect/esteem", and it still retains that meaning. It is only later that it also took on the meaning of the adoration, or λατρεια if you favor the Greek, that is reserved to God alone.

I am afraid that here you have just shown your unfamiliarity with the English language as it is used in the rest of the English-speaking world.

[88Devin12]

Deacon Lance, my brother, just read the links.  One talks about the scouts foundation in Masonry.  Yes I was a scout though unfortunately.  There were many ceremonies (blue and gold) and candle lit ceremonies.  The God spoken about in Masonry is meant to depict the scouts beliefs.  This is what lower level masons do as well.   

You keep talking about the Blue and Gold Banquet.

There is NO standard ceremony for the Blue and Gold Banquet, the annual springtime dinner where Cub Scouts get awards from their Pack, maybe watch a magic show or something of the like, and celebrate all they've learned that year.  There is nothing Masonic about it.  Every banquet is different, as each pack has the ability to structure it to their needs, facilities, time constraints, youth members, etc.  And I fail to see how a "candlelit ceremony" is exclusively Masonic.

I grew up in Scouting from Tiger Cubs through my 18th birthday.  I am an Eagle Scout.  As an adult, I'm a scout leader.  Every week, I'm working with young people within the Scouting program.  You are gravely mistaken, and I wish you would refrain from further commentary about Scouting, as it's clear you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

I'm thinking this character has read way too much from that Old Believer website, and his desire for real truth has become skewed.

My friend (yeshuaism), I would advise you back away from the Old Believer website. I've been in the company of someone similar to Old Believers and it started to effect me as well, thankfully I got away from it and looking back, I now see how insane the ideas this person had were.

[LizaSymonenko]

I am afraid that here you have just shown your unfamiliarity with the English language as it is used in the rest of the English-speaking world.

Please forgive my apparent ignorance and lack of mastery of the English language!

.....plllleeease.

[Aram]

Deacon Lance, my brother, just read the links.  One talks about the scouts foundation in Masonry.  Yes I was a scout though unfortunately.  There were many ceremonies (blue and gold) and candle lit ceremonies.  The God spoken about in Masonry is meant to depict the scouts beliefs.  This is what lower level masons do as well.   

You keep talking about the Blue and Gold Banquet.

There is NO standard ceremony for the Blue and Gold Banquet, the annual springtime dinner where Cub Scouts get awards from their Pack, maybe watch a magic show or something of the like, and celebrate all they've learned that year.  There is nothing Masonic about it.  Every banquet is different, as each pack has the ability to structure it to their needs, facilities, time constraints, youth members, etc.  And I fail to see how a "candlelit ceremony" is exclusively Masonic.

I grew up in Scouting from Tiger Cubs through my 18th birthday.  I am an Eagle Scout.  As an adult, I'm a scout leader.  Every week, I'm working with young people within the Scouting program.  You are gravely mistaken, and I wish you would refrain from further commentary about Scouting, as it's clear you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

I'm thinking this character has read way too much from that Old Believer website, and his desire for real truth has become skewed.

My friend (yeshuaism), I would advise you back away from the Old Believer website. I've been in the company of someone similar to Old Believers and it started to effect me as well, thankfully I got away from it and looking back, I now see how insane the ideas this person had were.

Old Believers have their time and place.  They believe what they believe, and for many of them, it's a way of life they have lived for generations.  There's no reason to criticize them or claim that they shouldn't be taken seriously.  They simply should be understood in context.  No need to call them insane.

[Sauron]

So, Sauron....what about the title "Worshipful Master"?

Shouldn't worship be reserved for God alone?

...or is that just a mere title, as well....just like sticking a needle in one's eye?

(KJV) Matthew 23:

 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

We should call NO man "Master".

What do you say to Protestants who say, "call no man father"?

1 Tim 6:1-2 "All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves."

This is an instruction to Christian slaves. Why does Timothy call other men "masters"?

[yeshuaisiam]

Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

[Sauron]

I am afraid that here you have just shown your unfamiliarity with the English language as it is used in the rest of the English-speaking world.

Please forgive my apparent ignorance and lack of mastery of the English language!

.....plllleeease.

You are forgiven. What a blessing to be given the opportunity to educate you on our common language!

[Aram]

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

I tend to believe what I know to be true from a lifetime in the Scouting movement, both as a youth and an adult, not some propaganda website from people who have no clue how the program works.  It's clear, based on your posts on this topic, you don't have a clue, either.

[88Devin12]

Deacon Lance, my brother, just read the links.  One talks about the scouts foundation in Masonry.  Yes I was a scout though unfortunately.  There were many ceremonies (blue and gold) and candle lit ceremonies.  The God spoken about in Masonry is meant to depict the scouts beliefs.  This is what lower level masons do as well.   

You keep talking about the Blue and Gold Banquet.

There is NO standard ceremony for the Blue and Gold Banquet, the annual springtime dinner where Cub Scouts get awards from their Pack, maybe watch a magic show or something of the like, and celebrate all they've learned that year.  There is nothing Masonic about it.  Every banquet is different, as each pack has the ability to structure it to their needs, facilities, time constraints, youth members, etc.  And I fail to see how a "candlelit ceremony" is exclusively Masonic.

I grew up in Scouting from Tiger Cubs through my 18th birthday.  I am an Eagle Scout.  As an adult, I'm a scout leader.  Every week, I'm working with young people within the Scouting program.  You are gravely mistaken, and I wish you would refrain from further commentary about Scouting, as it's clear you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

I'm thinking this character has read way too much from that Old Believer website, and his desire for real truth has become skewed.

My friend (yeshuaism), I would advise you back away from the Old Believer website. I've been in the company of someone similar to Old Believers and it started to effect me as well, thankfully I got away from it and looking back, I now see how insane the ideas this person had were.

Old Believers have their time and place.  They believe what they believe, and for many of them, it's a way of life they have lived for generations.  There's no reason to criticize them or claim that they shouldn't be taken seriously.  They simply should be understood in context.  No need to call them insane.

Should we say the same for Arians, Nestorians, Montanists, Donatists, Marcionites, Iconoclasts, Chiliasts, Ethnophyletists etc...?

I'm sick and tired of this liberal idea of "there are no barbaric peoples, just different people of different cultures." Its simply not true... The second definition of insanity is "extreme foolishness or irrationality" which I would classify Old Believers as. They certainly aren't mentally ill or "mad", but their ideas are very foolish and irrational.

[88Devin12]

Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

[yeshuaisiam]

So, Sauron....what about the title "Worshipful Master"?

Shouldn't worship be reserved for God alone?

...or is that just a mere title, as well....just like sticking a needle in one's eye?

(KJV) Matthew 23:

 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

We should call NO man "Master".

What do you say to Protestants who say, "call no man father"?

1 Tim 6:1-2 "All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves."

This is an instruction to Christian slaves. Why does Timothy call other men "masters"?

This is a different topic and a point I get into trouble a lot for.  As far as this quote goes Jesus was clearly speaking of people in a religious office.
This is why he began with Rabbi.  Then went to father.  Then went to Master.   But this digresses from this thread, and is a topic I have often had issues with here on the forum, even as directed towards the EO church (and RC church as well).  I've probably even made myself disliked on this subject by many unfortunately.

However, I don't also claim that Timothy was infallible.  I don't know the answer to your question, or why Timothy wrote that unless it only applies towards people of a religious nature.  What I know is that our Lord and savior Jesus Christ told us NOT TO.

However, this issues strays far from the intent of the thread, which is some of the EO clergy being Masons.  I think universally most EO would not appove of masonry at all, especially if they knew what its own texts say.

[Deacon Lance]

I would take anything from a website which blasts the Boyscouts as being "masonic" with a grain of salt, and perhaps a bottle or five of absinthe.

Dude, that will kill you, bro.  Kill you dead.



As for the OP, I'm not sure masonry is something Orthodox folks should get into.  My Priest is very opposed to it.  That's enough for me. 

The funny thing is, the Boy Scouts were founded in Masonry, and their ceremonies mimic masonic ceremonies and the "prayers" are to "universal gods", but this is besides the point.

No, no, and no.  Get your facts straight.

The problem with just saying no and telling somebody to get their facts straight doesn't prove a point.  I quoted stuff from the boy scouts saying they were originated in masons.  However, this is BESIDES the point.  It is about Orthodox or rather "high ranking" orthodox involved in Masonry.

Lord Baden-Powell in fact refused to become a Mason for fear of alienating Roman Catholics.

http://pinetreeweb.com/bp-freemason-france.htm

http://pinetreeweb.com/bp-freemason-england.htm

[LizaSymonenko]

I am afraid that here you have just shown your unfamiliarity with the English language as it is used in the rest of the English-speaking world.

Please forgive my apparent ignorance and lack of mastery of the English language!

.....plllleeease.

You are forgiven. What a blessing to be given the opportunity to educate you on our common language!

Well, you apparently have mastered it better than I.  

I still disagree with your reasons for joining...but, you will always find some reason to assuage your commitment to them....as it probably has opened doors to your career for you....and made you a more "important" man.

Good luck to you.

[yeshuaisiam]

Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Devin, I'm not against you.

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

These ideas do not "originate from the internet".   Many EO Christians & other Christians have been against freemasonry for a LONG time.   The ideas were more or less put on the internet.

[Sauron]

I am afraid that here you have just shown your unfamiliarity with the English language as it is used in the rest of the English-speaking world.

Please forgive my apparent ignorance and lack of mastery of the English language!

.....plllleeease.

You are forgiven. What a blessing to be given the opportunity to educate you on our common language!

Well, you apparently have mastered it better than I.  

I still disagree with your reasons for joining...but, you will always find some reason to assuage your commitment to them....as it probably has opened doors to your career for you....and made you a more "important" man.

Good luck to you.

I am sorry that you haven't been keeping up, but you might have noticed in my first post that I intend to tell my priest about my membership before converting and if he says I should demit, I will.

I do not believe I ever stated my reasons for joining, so what ever reasons you are disagreeing with are ones that you made up in your head. And, it really hasn't done anything for my career. Mine is a small rural lodge with a membership that is mostly retired (and half of them are snowbirds!)

God thinks we are all important. My wife and children think I am important. That is enough for me.

[Sauron]

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

This is news to me. I have been a Mason for years and am even master of a lodge, and I have never read it (other than what you have quoted here).

And, let us dispense with "high ranking mason". The highest degree in Masonry is the third degree. That's it, and it is possible to reach it in one day. Some high degree!

[88Devin12]

Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Devin, I'm not against you.

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

These ideas do not "originate from the internet".   Many EO Christians & other Christians have been against freemasonry for a LONG time.   The ideas were more or less put on the internet.

Oh I'm not doubting Freemasonry is wrong. But the ideas many Orthodox have of Freemasonry are wrong... While it doesn't relate to freemasonry, there is a book about two Jehovah's Witnesses who became Orthodox (one was Orthodox, converted, then came back) and they talk about the very incorrect views most Orthodox had about Jehovah's Witnesses and their practices.

You cannot take European Freemasonry and assume it is the same as American Freemasonry, just as you can't take European Catholicism and assume American Catholicism is the same.

[LizaSymonenko]

I am sorry that you haven't been keeping up, but you might have noticed in my first post that I intend to tell my priest about my membership before converting and if he says I should demit, I will.

I'm glad to hear it.

I do not believe I ever stated my reasons for joining, so what ever reasons you are disagreeing with are ones that you made up in your head.

I wasn't "making up" anything in my head, I was referring to your statement:

I know so much about Masonry because I I have been a member for five years. It makes no promises to anyone anymore than the Rotary club makes promises. As to the benefits, like any association, one gets out of it what one puts into it (I think the same can be said of the Church). If one simply pays dues once a year, probably not much. Speaking for myself, I have had the opportunity to participate in worthy charity work, develop public speaking and management skills, and make a few good friends.

God thinks we are all important. My wife and children think I am important. That is enough for me.

THAT is an excellent statement.

[yeshuaisiam]

I would take anything from a website which blasts the Boyscouts as being "masonic" with a grain of salt, and perhaps a bottle or five of absinthe.

Dude, that will kill you, bro.  Kill you dead.



As for the OP, I'm not sure masonry is something Orthodox folks should get into.  My Priest is very opposed to it.  That's enough for me. 

The funny thing is, the Boy Scouts were founded in Masonry, and their ceremonies mimic masonic ceremonies and the "prayers" are to "universal gods", but this is besides the point.

No, no, and no.  Get your facts straight.

The problem with just saying no and telling somebody to get their facts straight doesn't prove a point.  I quoted stuff from the boy scouts saying they were originated in masons.  However, this is BESIDES the point.  It is about Orthodox or rather "high ranking" orthodox involved in Masonry.

Lord Baden-Powell in fact refused to become a Mason for fear of alienating Roman Catholics.

http://pinetreeweb.com/bp-freemason-france.htm

http://pinetreeweb.com/bp-freemason-england.htm

Even though there are many other sites claiming him to be, along with masonic lodges named after him, for the sake of argument, I'd rather stop talking about the scouts.  I was a scout and we weren't swearing blood oaths in the scouts.   The arguments exist in the ceremonies that people make.  However, I'm not the one who brought up the scouts... I see masonic ties myself, but its not important to the context of the thread, nor do I believe that the boys scouts involved in scouting are all damned to hell or anything. LOL.  

I'm concerned and confused by the EO Christians involved in it.  The clergy who have their duties and dedication of their lives to God would seem to be living a double life.  On one hand dedicated to God, and on the other Lucifer.   Those are my concerns.  This in recognition that MANY EO Christians are avidly against Freemasonry and it has been condemned by many bishops and Synods.

[Deacon Lance]

Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.

Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic.

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

Lord Baden-Powell was not a Mason.  The sites you link to are simply lying.  You say you believe Boy Scouts have Masonic ceremonies.  I ask why is that?  Have you been a Boy Scout?  Have you attened any of their ceremonies?  If not what do you base your beliefs on?  

That said Masonic Lodges may sponsor packs and troops, but so may Mormons, Buddhists, and  Muslims.  Scouting is a program of citizenship and outdoorsmanship.  Scouts are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same.

Deacon Lance, my brother, just read the links.  One talks about the scouts foundation in Masonry.  Yes I was a scout though unfortunately.  There were many ceremonies (blue and gold) and candle lit ceremonies.  The God spoken about in Masonry is meant to depict the scouts beliefs.  This is what lower level masons do as well.   

HOWEVER, the Boy Scouts are NOT important to this thread.   High ranking Orthodox clergy are listed.

Your first link is by a Fundametalist minister with a lot of kooky conjecture about Brownies.

Your second link I already acknowledged.  Yes, Lodges can sponsor packs/troops.  Churches and Organizations also give awards to Scouts and Scouters.  The Masons do as does the AFL-CIO as well as many Churches including the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Not sure what you are trying to point out in the third link.  

Again what in the ceremonies is Masonic related?  I don't ask out of ignorance.  I am an Eagle Scout, brotherhood member of the Order of the Arrow, Assistant Scoutmaster, and Chairman of the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh Committee on Scouting.  I have never seen anything Masonic related in any ceremony and has been pointed out there is no mandated ceremony for anything other than the Order of the Arrow.  Were some of the founders Masons? Yes.  Is Masonry a supporter of Scouting? Yes.  Was Lord B-P a Mason? No.  Is Scouting Masonic? No.

No Church is more anti-Mason than the Catholic Church.  Scouting was carefully studied before the Catholic Church endorsed Scouting and I am sure the Orthodox Church did the same before it endorsed Scouting.

[yeshuaisiam]

Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Devin, I'm not against you.

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

These ideas do not "originate from the internet".   Many EO Christians & other Christians have been against freemasonry for a LONG time.   The ideas were more or less put on the internet.

Oh I'm not doubting Freemasonry is wrong. But the ideas many Orthodox have of Freemasonry are wrong... While it doesn't relate to freemasonry, there is a book about two Jehovah's Witnesses who became Orthodox (one was Orthodox, converted, then came back) and they talk about the very incorrect views most Orthodox had about Jehovah's Witnesses and their practices.

You cannot take European Freemasonry and assume it is the same as American Freemasonry, just as you can't take European Catholicism and assume American Catholicism is the same.

I agree with you that viewpoints & the lens people look through can be warped.  The book of Morals and Dogma was from an American however.  Not only do EO Christians see it that way, but many protestants, Atheists, and Muslims see Freemasonry in the same way.  

However, I don't believe that the common lodge in a city has a bunch of ranting raving devil worshippers running around.  I believe most of the guys feel like they are involved in a "good ol boy" type of club.   Most have no idea of what the organization is really about and/or just want some buddies to hang around with and/or do business with.     I can't call this harmless though, as they should not be involved in this type of organization at all on a spiritual level.

As speaking in terms of EO Christians, most I've known are against freemasonry.  The concern expressed is when there is high ranking clergy & bishops involved in it.  Their first priority should be their flock.  In consideration of the masonic books, symbols (such as the Eastern Star/Pentagram), and the oaths taken alone, it is hard to believe Orthodox Christians would be involved in this.

For the most part I believe the EO body of Christians have taken a good position against it, but it surprises me that these clergy are this way.

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

[Deacon Lance]

As can be read to the left, I have been an Orthodox inquirer for about a year. I am also a Freemason and in fact, am the master of my lodge this year. I do intend to disclose my membership to my priest, and if he should say that I must demit in order to join the church, I would obey.

Why?  You don't obey the Catholic Church of which you currently claim membership.

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DECLARATION ON MASONIC ASSOCIATIONS

It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church’s decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous Code.

This Sacred Congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance in due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.

Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.
It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the Declaration of this Sacred Congregation issued on 17 February 1981 (cf. AAS 73 1981 pp. 240-241; English language edition of L’Osservatore Romano, 9 March 1981).

In an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this Declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this Sacred Congregation.

Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 26 November 1983.


Joseph Card. RATZINGER
Prefect

+ Fr. Jerome Hamer, O.P.
Titular Archbishop of Lorium
Secretary


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html

[Maria]

I am afraid that here you have just shown your unfamiliarity with the English language as it is used in the rest of the English-speaking world.

Please forgive my apparent ignorance and lack of mastery of the English language!

.....plllleeease.

You are forgiven. What a blessing to be given the opportunity to educate you on our common language!

Well, you apparently have mastered it better than I.  

I still disagree with your reasons for joining...but, you will always find some reason to assuage your commitment to them....as it probably has opened doors to your career for you....and made you a more "important" man.

Good luck to you.

To lighten this topic on the importance of "important"

There is a joke in the South. Some folks in the South cannot say the liquid /r/ but speak more like the British.
Therefore the words "important" and "impotent" are often confused.

This old worker went to see his doctor.
Afterwards, he went to an expensive store and bought a suit.
When he came home, his wife asked him why he was wearing such an expensive suit.
He responded: The doctor told me that I was very important [pronounced: /impotent/].

And here is a true story:

This hieromonk was visiting parishes with his ROCOR bishop.
They went to visit one parish that was dying.
While attending the Divine Liturgy, it seemed so cold, so distant.
Then the hieromonk noticed that the ring worn by the pastor of that parish was a masonic ring.

[yeshuaisiam]

Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.

Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic.

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

Lord Baden-Powell was not a Mason.  The sites you link to are simply lying.  You say you believe Boy Scouts have Masonic ceremonies.  I ask why is that?  Have you been a Boy Scout?  Have you attened any of their ceremonies?  If not what do you base your beliefs on?  

That said Masonic Lodges may sponsor packs and troops, but so may Mormons, Buddhists, and  Muslims.  Scouting is a program of citizenship and outdoorsmanship.  Scouts are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same.

Deacon Lance, my brother, just read the links.  One talks about the scouts foundation in Masonry.  Yes I was a scout though unfortunately.  There were many ceremonies (blue and gold) and candle lit ceremonies.  The God spoken about in Masonry is meant to depict the scouts beliefs.  This is what lower level masons do as well.  

HOWEVER, the Boy Scouts are NOT important to this thread.   High ranking Orthodox clergy are listed.

Your first link is by a Fundametalist minister with a lot of kooky conjecture about Brownies.

Your second link I already acknowledged.  Yes, Lodges can sponsor packs/troops.  Churches and Organizations also give awards to Scouts and Scouters.  The Masons do as does the AFL-CIO as well as many Churches including the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Not sure what you are trying to point out in the third link.  

Again what in the ceremonies is Masonic related?  I don't ask out of ignorance.  I am an Eagle Scout, brotherhood member of the Order of the Arrow, Assistant Scoutmaster, and Chairman of the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh Committee on Scouting.  I have never seen anything Masonic related in any ceremony and has been pointed out there is no mandated ceremony for anything other than the Order of the Arrow.  Were some of the founders Masons? Yes.  Is Masonry a supporter of Scouting? Yes.  Was Lord B-P a Mason? No.  Is Scouting Masonic? No.

No Church is more anti-Mason than the Catholic Church.  Scouting was carefully studied before the Catholic Church endorsed Scouting and I am sure the Orthodox Church did the same before it endorsed Scouting.

Well the first link is the most compelling.  It's amazing how we can shun off things that are hard to hear.  Immediately he's a fundamentalist who is kooky.  I mean no lodges named after the founder... http://www.bplodge929.com/

But you know what, it doesn't matter though in context of the thread.  I don't see little boy scouts running around as devil worshippers.  Scouting was not the point at all.  I think there are some masonic elements in boy/girl scouting, but I'm getting the rap for what somebody else brought up.  There's masonic things in many things we do & use (dollar bill?), it doesn't mean we all approve or can avoid.

This is a far cry different issue than EO clergy who should "know better" directly joining the Masons.   Boy & Girls scouts are not masons themselves.

[88Devin12]

Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Devin, I'm not against you.

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

These ideas do not "originate from the internet".   Many EO Christians & other Christians have been against freemasonry for a LONG time.   The ideas were more or less put on the internet.

Oh I'm not doubting Freemasonry is wrong. But the ideas many Orthodox have of Freemasonry are wrong... While it doesn't relate to freemasonry, there is a book about two Jehovah's Witnesses who became Orthodox (one was Orthodox, converted, then came back) and they talk about the very incorrect views most Orthodox had about Jehovah's Witnesses and their practices.

You cannot take European Freemasonry and assume it is the same as American Freemasonry, just as you can't take European Catholicism and assume American Catholicism is the same.

I agree with you that viewpoints & the lens people look through can be warped.  The book of Morals and Dogma was from an American however.  Not only do EO Christians see it that way, but many protestants, Atheists, and Muslims see Freemasonry in the same way.  

However, I don't believe that the common lodge in a city has a bunch of ranting raving devil worshippers running around.  I believe most of the guys feel like they are involved in a "good ol boy" type of club.   Most have no idea of what the organization is really about and/or just want some buddies to hang around with and/or do business with.     I can't call this harmless though, as they should not be involved in this type of organization at all on a spiritual level.

As speaking in terms of EO Christians, most I've known are against freemasonry.  The concern expressed is when there is high ranking clergy & bishops involved in it.  Their first priority should be their flock.  In consideration of the masonic books, symbols (such as the Eastern Star/Pentagram), and the oaths taken alone, it is hard to believe Orthodox Christians would be involved in this.

For the most part I believe the EO body of Christians have taken a good position against it, but it surprises me that these clergy are this way.

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

So if I built a city in the pattern of a Christian cross intentionally, does that mean I plan world domination? Are you serious? What is people's obsession with bullcrap like masons inserting masonic elements into their urban designs and architecture? It doesn't indicate a desire for world domination at all. I would insert Orthodoxy into my architecture and urban design, but that doesn't mean we are all bend on world domination.

[Maria]

Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.

Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic.

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

Lord Baden-Powell was not a Mason.  The sites you link to are simply lying.  You say you believe Boy Scouts have Masonic ceremonies.  I ask why is that?  Have you been a Boy Scout?  Have you attened any of their ceremonies?  If not what do you base your beliefs on?  

That said Masonic Lodges may sponsor packs and troops, but so may Mormons, Buddhists, and  Muslims.  Scouting is a program of citizenship and outdoorsmanship.  Scouts are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same.

Deacon Lance, my brother, just read the links.  One talks about the scouts foundation in Masonry.  Yes I was a scout though unfortunately.  There were many ceremonies (blue and gold) and candle lit ceremonies.  The God spoken about in Masonry is meant to depict the scouts beliefs.  This is what lower level masons do as well.   

HOWEVER, the Boy Scouts are NOT important to this thread.   High ranking Orthodox clergy are listed.

Your first link is by a Fundametalist minister with a lot of kooky conjecture about Brownies.

Your second link I already acknowledged.  Yes, Lodges can sponsor packs/troops.  Churches and Organizations also give awards to Scouts and Scouters.  The Masons do as does the AFL-CIO as well as many Churches including the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Not sure what you are trying to point out in the third link.  

Again what in the ceremonies is Masonic related?  I don't ask out of ignorance.  I am an Eagle Scout, brotherhood member of the Order of the Arrow, Assistant Scoutmaster, and Chairman of the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh Committee on Scouting.  I have never seen anything Masonic related in any ceremony and has been pointed out there is no mandated ceremony for anything other than the Order of the Arrow.  Were some of the founders Masons? Yes.  Is Masonry a supporter of Scouting? Yes.  Was Lord B-P a Mason? No.  Is Scouting Masonic? No.

No Church is more anti-Mason than the Catholic Church.  Scouting was carefully studied before the Catholic Church endorsed Scouting and I am sure the Orthodox Church did the same before it endorsed Scouting.

Well the first link is the most compelling.  It's amazing how we can shun off things that are hard to hear.  Immediately he's a fundamentalist who is kooky.  I mean no lodges named after the founder... http://www.bplodge929.com/

But you know what, it doesn't matter though in context of the thread.  I don't see little boy scouts running around as devil worshippers.  Scouting was not the point at all.  I think there are some masonic elements in boy/girl scouting, but I'm getting the rap for what somebody else brought up.  There's masonic things in many things we do & use (dollar bill?), it doesn't mean we all approve or can avoid.

This is a far cry different issue than EO clergy who should "know better" directly joining the Masons.

Yes, not just clergy, but none less than the Ecumenical Patriarch have been freemasons with masonic funerals to boot.
Lord have mercy.

[yeshuaisiam]

Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Devin, I'm not against you.

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

These ideas do not "originate from the internet".   Many EO Christians & other Christians have been against freemasonry for a LONG time.   The ideas were more or less put on the internet.

Oh I'm not doubting Freemasonry is wrong. But the ideas many Orthodox have of Freemasonry are wrong... While it doesn't relate to freemasonry, there is a book about two Jehovah's Witnesses who became Orthodox (one was Orthodox, converted, then came back) and they talk about the very incorrect views most Orthodox had about Jehovah's Witnesses and their practices.

You cannot take European Freemasonry and assume it is the same as American Freemasonry, just as you can't take European Catholicism and assume American Catholicism is the same.

I agree with you that viewpoints & the lens people look through can be warped.  The book of Morals and Dogma was from an American however.  Not only do EO Christians see it that way, but many protestants, Atheists, and Muslims see Freemasonry in the same way.  

However, I don't believe that the common lodge in a city has a bunch of ranting raving devil worshippers running around.  I believe most of the guys feel like they are involved in a "good ol boy" type of club.   Most have no idea of what the organization is really about and/or just want some buddies to hang around with and/or do business with.     I can't call this harmless though, as they should not be involved in this type of organization at all on a spiritual level.

As speaking in terms of EO Christians, most I've known are against freemasonry.  The concern expressed is when there is high ranking clergy & bishops involved in it.  Their first priority should be their flock.  In consideration of the masonic books, symbols (such as the Eastern Star/Pentagram), and the oaths taken alone, it is hard to believe Orthodox Christians would be involved in this.

For the most part I believe the EO body of Christians have taken a good position against it, but it surprises me that these clergy are this way.

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

So if I built a city in the pattern of a Christian cross intentionally, does that mean I plan world domination? Are you serious? What is people's obsession with bullcrap like masons inserting masonic elements into their urban designs and architecture? It doesn't indicate a desire for world domination at all. I would insert Orthodoxy into my architecture and urban design, but that doesn't mean we are all bend on world domination.

Well the eastern star roads (about 4-5 square miles big) (masonic) were built with our taxes paid with masonic symbol dollars...   I think there is some truth behind it.  As you said in analogy "I would insert Orthodoxy into MY architecture and urban design...." as you put yourself in a mason's shoes.   YOUR architecture?  (Freudian slip?) The streets do not belong to them.  They are ours.   Anyway, world domination is not the issue and despite if I believe there is some truth behind it - it is my opinion. 

I wish the thread would go back to the EO clergy involved and the expansion of ideas of either convincing, outcasting, or informing clergy involved in freemasonry of their errs.   World domination & scouting just digress...

[yeshuaisiam]

Archbishop Seraphim is pictured with the Lions Club, which is absolutely not masonic.

Don't tell that to a fellow who believes even the Boy Scouts are masonic.

"Regarding the organizations linked to Freemasonry, here’s one that is usually a surprise to many, the Scouting
Movement. Lord Baden-Powell, the founder was a Mason. The following quote comes from Kitchen, Yvonne.
Freemasonry Death In The Family. Fruitful Vine, PO Box 1112, Mountain Gate, Victoria 3156, Australia. 1997.
ISBN 0-646-34807-8. Page 156 “Even the Scouts and Girl Guides have their roots in Lord Baden-Powell’s
Freemasonry. He was a well-known Mason in the Lodge of the Grand Orient.”

www.ctmin.org/pdf/scouting.pdf
http://www.gl-mi.org/scouting-masons.htm
http://www.ctyankee.org/

I would not attack his rationale in oder to thrash his character to discredit everything he has posted.   People do make mistakes, but that doesn't make everything they say wrong.  I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says, but it doesn't make them completely wrong on every subject.  I happen to believe the Boy Scouts DO have Masonic roots and Masonic based ceremonies.   There is logical evidence that supports this.

Lord Baden-Powell was not a Mason.  The sites you link to are simply lying.  You say you believe Boy Scouts have Masonic ceremonies.  I ask why is that?  Have you been a Boy Scout?  Have you attened any of their ceremonies?  If not what do you base your beliefs on?  

That said Masonic Lodges may sponsor packs and troops, but so may Mormons, Buddhists, and  Muslims.  Scouting is a program of citizenship and outdoorsmanship.  Scouts are urged to be true to the dictates of their own faith while respecting the right of others to do the same.

Deacon Lance, my brother, just read the links.  One talks about the scouts foundation in Masonry.  Yes I was a scout though unfortunately.  There were many ceremonies (blue and gold) and candle lit ceremonies.  The God spoken about in Masonry is meant to depict the scouts beliefs.  This is what lower level masons do as well.   

HOWEVER, the Boy Scouts are NOT important to this thread.   High ranking Orthodox clergy are listed.

Your first link is by a Fundametalist minister with a lot of kooky conjecture about Brownies.

Your second link I already acknowledged.  Yes, Lodges can sponsor packs/troops.  Churches and Organizations also give awards to Scouts and Scouters.  The Masons do as does the AFL-CIO as well as many Churches including the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Not sure what you are trying to point out in the third link.  

Again what in the ceremonies is Masonic related?  I don't ask out of ignorance.  I am an Eagle Scout, brotherhood member of the Order of the Arrow, Assistant Scoutmaster, and Chairman of the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh Committee on Scouting.  I have never seen anything Masonic related in any ceremony and has been pointed out there is no mandated ceremony for anything other than the Order of the Arrow.  Were some of the founders Masons? Yes.  Is Masonry a supporter of Scouting? Yes.  Was Lord B-P a Mason? No.  Is Scouting Masonic? No.

No Church is more anti-Mason than the Catholic Church.  Scouting was carefully studied before the Catholic Church endorsed Scouting and I am sure the Orthodox Church did the same before it endorsed Scouting.

Well the first link is the most compelling.  It's amazing how we can shun off things that are hard to hear.  Immediately he's a fundamentalist who is kooky.  I mean no lodges named after the founder... http://www.bplodge929.com/

But you know what, it doesn't matter though in context of the thread.  I don't see little boy scouts running around as devil worshippers.  Scouting was not the point at all.  I think there are some masonic elements in boy/girl scouting, but I'm getting the rap for what somebody else brought up.  There's masonic things in many things we do & use (dollar bill?), it doesn't mean we all approve or can avoid.

This is a far cry different issue than EO clergy who should "know better" directly joining the Masons.

Yes, not just clergy, but none less than the Ecumenical Patriarch have been freemasons with masonic funerals to boot.
Lord have mercy.

I have to admit that the Ecumenical Patriarch or any other bishops involved have me the most concerned.   I'm curious what their rationale was for joining and hoping that the masonic influence could not have brought in "bad threads" into the "church cloth".

[LizaSymonenko]

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

...that's just freaky!

Must simply be a coincidence...don't you think?

[88Devin12]

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

...that's just freaky!

Must simply be a coincidence...don't you think?

No, the planner for Washington D.C. was a French Freemason. Washington D.C. was planned out way back in in the last 1700s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Enfant_Plan
It was a popular concept for the day, where you would create main avenues between major plazas, monuments, etc... The same was done in Paris, where they destroyed many blocks to create main avenues in geometric patterns radiating around the city.

So its probably the product of planning and layout of streets, and could very well have been intentional considering the masonic connections between the President and Planner. (Washington and L'Enfant, though L'Enfant didn't go high into masonry)

People take something as simple as that and try to make it into something more than it is. Sure, it probably has masonic significance and connections, but that doesn't symbolize world domination at all.

[username!]

Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Devin, I'm not against you.

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

These ideas do not "originate from the internet".   Many EO Christians & other Christians have been against freemasonry for a LONG time.   The ideas were more or less put on the internet.

I honestly do not understand where you are getting all of your anti-mason information.  Sauron has shown no ill-will towards anyone here in this thread.  He is being respectful.  Obtaining information on youtube and wikipedia is academically akin to learning from walls of a public bathroom. 

[yeshuaisiam]

Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Ehm, it's in the BOOK itself.  Lucifer is called God.  I have the book right here on my shelf with a sticky note in it.   Page 321 & 324.

[yeshuaisiam]

Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Devin, I'm not against you.

My brother, Masons DO NOT consider Morals and Dogma an obscure book.   Morals and dogma is "THE BOOK" and very respected by Freemasons.  Albert Pike the author was an extremely high ranking mason.

These ideas do not "originate from the internet".   Many EO Christians & other Christians have been against freemasonry for a LONG time.   The ideas were more or less put on the internet.

I honestly do not understand where you are getting all of your anti-mason information.  Sauron has shown no ill-will towards anyone here in this thread.  He is being respectful.  Obtaining information on youtube and wikipedia is academically akin to learning from walls of a public bathroom. 

I'm being respectful towards him too.

It's not just information on youtube and wikipedia.  The Masonic book "Morals and Dogma" calls Lucifer God.   I mean it's pretty direct.

[yeshuaisiam]

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

...that's just freaky!

Must simply be a coincidence...don't you think?

It is freaky!

When I saw that for the first time my life was never the same again.   Here it is, probably about 4-5 square mile pentagram (Eastern Star).  The bottom tip of the star is exactly where the white house is.

As in the movie Bill and Ted's excellent adventure says "Strange things are at foot at the Circle K".   That's exactly what I thought when I saw it.

[yeshuaisiam]

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

...that's just freaky!

Must simply be a coincidence...don't you think?

No, the planner for Washington D.C. was a French Freemason. Washington D.C. was planned out way back in in the last 1700s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Enfant_Plan
It was a popular concept for the day, where you would create main avenues between major plazas, monuments, etc... The same was done in Paris, where they destroyed many blocks to create main avenues in geometric patterns radiating around the city.

So its probably the product of planning and layout of streets, and could very well have been intentional considering the masonic connections between the President and Planner. (Washington and L'Enfant, though L'Enfant didn't go high into masonry)

People take something as simple as that and try to make it into something more than it is. Sure, it probably has masonic significance and connections, but that doesn't symbolize world domination at all.

I don't agree with your statement entirely.

Not the fact of origin, but the lack of attributing the significance of the outrageousness of it.   It's a PENTAGRAM, the bottom tip is EXACTLY where the white house is.   It's 4-5 square miles.

Of course if you research how many presidents were Freemasons or Skull & Bones (Offshoot of masons) it pretty much suggests that they are in power.

Now, with that said, combine that with the freemason book calling Lucifer God, and you have Lucifer worshippers who put pentagrams on our nation's capital in the streets, and become our presidents.   

Couple that with some of our nations "prized" monuments are masonic & luciferic, such as the Washington Monument, and the Statue of Liberty (gift from French Freemasons) which represents the God of the Sun (Colossus/Ra/Light Bearer/Lucifer).   A plaque exists on the Statue of Liberty as a dedication from the Masons.

Now with that said, seems like they certainly are dominating the world being in such positions of power.... 

But this is besides the point of focusing on the Orthodox Clergy being involved with them. I don't understand why things get so digressed here?

[88Devin12]

As far as world domination and all that goes, I believe there is some truth behind it (eastern star in the streets right above white house - google maps zip code 20500 and go to satellite only without labels), however, this does NOT involve a common city lodge.  

...that's just freaky!

Must simply be a coincidence...don't you think?

No, the planner for Washington D.C. was a French Freemason. Washington D.C. was planned out way back in in the last 1700s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Enfant_Plan
It was a popular concept for the day, where you would create main avenues between major plazas, monuments, etc... The same was done in Paris, where they destroyed many blocks to create main avenues in geometric patterns radiating around the city.

So its probably the product of planning and layout of streets, and could very well have been intentional considering the masonic connections between the President and Planner. (Washington and L'Enfant, though L'Enfant didn't go high into masonry)

People take something as simple as that and try to make it into something more than it is. Sure, it probably has masonic significance and connections, but that doesn't symbolize world domination at all.

I don't agree with your statement entirely.

Not the fact of origin, but the lack of attributing the significance of the outrageousness of it.   It's a PENTAGRAM, the bottom tip is EXACTLY where the white house is.   It's 4-5 square miles.

Of course if you research how many presidents were Freemasons or Skull & Bones (Offshoot of masons) it pretty much suggests that they are in power.

Now, with that said, combine that with the freemason book calling Lucifer God, and you have Lucifer worshippers who put pentagrams on our nation's capital in the streets, and become our presidents.   

Couple that with some of our nations "prized" monuments are masonic & luciferic, such as the Washington Monument, and the Statue of Liberty (gift from French Freemasons) which represents the God of the Sun (Colossus/Ra/Light Bearer/Lucifer).   A plaque exists on the Statue of Liberty as a dedication from the Masons.

Now with that said, seems like they certainly are dominating the world being in such positions of power.... 

But this is besides the point of focusing on the Orthodox Clergy being involved with them. I don't understand why things get so digressed here?

 You clearly have not been reading from reliable sources. The pentagram, or eastern star wasn't used by Satanists and Neo-Pagans until well after it was in use by many world faiths (including Christianity) as well as Freemasons...

In fact, the upside down pentagram didn't have real negative connotations until Satanist began using it, well after the Masons were already using it...

As I said before, you need to stop reading these conspiracy theory websites and you especially need to stop trusting websites of Old Believers.

[username!]

Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Ehm, it's in the BOOK itself.  Lucifer is called God.  I have the book right here on my shelf with a sticky note in it.   Page 321 & 324.

That's one book, and not even an isbn number.

[PeterTheAleut]

Sauron,

Here is a documentary (part one) on youtube about Masonry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW-89BDzLA&feature=related

The other parts on on the right in youtube.  It explains what is going on.  Believe it or not, the documentary is VERY gentle on the masons.

Many masons are not aware of what Masonry is, so don't feel bad. Most think more or less its like a fraternity.   So I'm absolutely not thumbing my nose at you or anything.

I'm humbly asking you as a brother in Christ, to research these things.  Check out freemasonrywatch.org .  Watch some documentaries on the masons.  You won't see many documentaries against regular fraternities (other than angry moms LOL), but you do behind the masons because there is so much more.   It's a very deep & powerful organization.  At the grassroots & town level, it appears as a fraternity to most.

God Bless.

Who really cares what a video on YouTube says? Besides, many people don't realize that freemasonry in the United States IS a fraternal organization. Sure, in Europe it was probably a little cultish and insane, but in the United States, in many places, it has become little more than a fraternal organization.

I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like its all a big conspiracy, or its one big, giant cult.

Well, there are a lot of people who would take the credibility of people who say they are former masons showing what it is about.  Also, I posted excerpts from one of their most PRIZED books "Morals and Dogma" proclaiming LUCIFER to be GOD!   Should we brush that off as well?

What about the links in former posts I gave about the scouts?  Were those ignored?  What more can one say if their own prized texts proclaim Lucifer to be God?

I've seen no RELIABLE source that talks about such. Don't get your ideas from websites and obscure books, get them from real scholarly sources. You're going to deceive yourself and mislead yourself if you simply take ideas from the internet. There is a lot of real insanity out there, especially masked as being supposedly reasonable and rational.

Even if you Google "Morals Dogma Pike Lucifer", you don't get a single reliable website.

Ehm, it's in the BOOK itself.  Lucifer is called God.  I have the book right here on my shelf with a sticky note in it.   Page 321 & 324.

"It HAS to be true! I read it in a book/on the Internet."

[biro]

My aunt's boyfriend is in the Freemasons. I'm not sure I would join even if I could, but this guy seems pretty normal. He owns a paint store. Not a whiff of the Satanist about him.

[primuspilus]

My aunt's boyfriend is in the Freemasons. I'm not sure I would join even if I could, but this guy seems pretty normal. He owns a paint store. Not a whiff of the Satanist about him.

In a some-what defense of the premise....I have heard that degrees 1-3 are pretty normal (farmer john, and jack at the firehouse kind of guys). Its higher up that you get into the dirt.

Now whether thats true...well....

PP

[username!]

My aunt's boyfriend is in the Freemasons. I'm not sure I would join even if I could, but this guy seems pretty normal. He owns a paint store. Not a whiff of the Satanist about him.

In a some-what defense of the premise....I have heard that degrees 1-3 are pretty normal (farmer john, and jack at the firehouse kind of guys). Its higher up that you get into the dirt.

Now whether thats true...well....

PP

No, I doubt it.  I believe a mason when he tells you the only thing secret is the handshake and password.  What fraternal organization doesn't have those to get into the chapter room for a meeting?  None that I know of. 
The only thing about higher degrees I have experienced in non-mason fraternal organizations is the ritual is just neater and each one you learn a lesson that ties in with the fraternities beliefs.  And the core belief is usually taught at the first degree. No secret there, you're told up front what the organization believes.  I doubt the masons are any different in that regard. 

[LizaSymonenko]

My question still remains...what's the benefit of entering a "fraternal" organization in the first place?  What are the people trying to gain?

[primuspilus]

My question still remains...what's the benefit of entering a "fraternal" organization in the first place?  What are the people trying to gain?

networking contacts, political and business relationships, friends for their kids.....sounds alot like a seminar my former church gave on why you should come to church......

PP

[LizaSymonenko]

My point exactly!

[recent convert]

I don't know, I saw National Treasure & enjoyed it but still never considered freemasonry. I even saw a ritual depicted in Peggy Sue Got Married (note that Nick Cage is in both movies) but that never affected me either. Oh well.

[Sauron]

My question still remains...what's the benefit of entering a "fraternal" organization in the first place?  What are the people trying to gain?

With respect, I don't know if a woman can understand very well why men join fraternities.

After Liturgy next week, I will start grilling the members of the Philoptochos Society and make those women tell me exactly what they are trying to gain.

[Sauron]

My aunt's boyfriend is in the Freemasons. I'm not sure I would join even if I could, but this guy seems pretty normal. He owns a paint store. Not a whiff of the Satanist about him.

In a some-what defense of the premise....I have heard that degrees 1-3 are pretty normal (farmer john, and jack at the firehouse kind of guys). Its higher up that you get into the dirt.

Now whether thats true...well....

PP

No, I doubt it.  I believe a mason when he tells you the only thing secret is the handshake and password.  What fraternal organization doesn't have those to get into the chapter room for a meeting?  None that I know of.  
The only thing about higher degrees I have experienced in non-mason fraternal organizations is the ritual is just neater and each one you learn a lesson that ties in with the fraternities beliefs.  And the core belief is usually taught at the first degree. No secret there, you're told up front what the organization believes.  I doubt the masons are any different in that regard.  

The non-Blue Lodges degrees are not considered "higher". They are considered lateral.

And, some high degrees! Here is how to get your 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite: watch a bunch of short plays over the course of a weekend. Presto! You now have your 32nd degree. I showed up on Saturday morning as a 3d degree and left the next day as a 32nd degree.

[88Devin12]

My brother (not Orthodox) joined the Freemasons and the Shriners, we tried to convince him not to but what can you do when he's married and on his own right? lol

He wanted something to belong to and the Masons & Shriners gave him that. Of course, not that I agree with it, but he's happy...

You can ask, why do women join Sororities in College? It isn't always about alcohol, in fact I think women join sororities more for the "sisterhood" aspect than alcohol, whereas men probably join fraternities more for the parties than the "brotherhood".

Heck my dad was a member of the Lion's Club (not masonic btw) for years. Its something for men to belong to.

Of course, this is all in the United States, it may be different in Europe.

[Manalive]

Sauron, your faith says: "Catholic- Latin Rite". How did you get around the Papal ban of Freemasonary? Why not join the Knights of Columbus instead?

[primuspilus]

The non-Blue Lodges degrees are not considered "higher". They are considered lateral.

And, some high degrees! Here is how to get your 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite: watch a bunch of short plays over the course of a weekend. Presto! You now have your 32nd degree. I showed up on Saturday morning as a 3d degree and left the next day as a 32nd degree

I do have a question for you Sauron. What do you make of Albert Pike? He's said some pretty outlandish things (Luciferian things if I recall) and he was pretty high up.

PP

[88Devin12]

The non-Blue Lodges degrees are not considered "higher". They are considered lateral.

And, some high degrees! Here is how to get your 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite: watch a bunch of short plays over the course of a weekend. Presto! You now have your 32nd degree. I showed up on Saturday morning as a 3d degree and left the next day as a 32nd degree

I do have a question for you Sauron. What do you make of Albert Pike? He's said some pretty outlandish things (Luciferian things if I recall) and he was pretty high up.

PP

What if you had a "high up" Freemason that was Muslim and started referring to God as Allah and Jesus as only a Prophet? Freemasonry isn't meant to slant to any specific religion, its "ecumenical". So if someone really was "Satanic", they could theoretically still be a Freemason, it doesn't mean that one person reflects all Freemasonry, not matter how high up they've made it.

Of course, that is one of our church's problems with freemasonry, is that it is too ecumenical and treats all deist religions as potentially valid.

That is what I've tried to explain to my brother. He tried to explain to us that he isn't changing his Christian faith and the Masons weren't changing it, that they are open to all faiths. Yet I tried to explain that was one of the problems, that it is a bit too open, and the "prayers" or statements are too vague.

[primuspilus]

The non-Blue Lodges degrees are not considered "higher". They are considered lateral.

And, some high degrees! Here is how to get your 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite: watch a bunch of short plays over the course of a weekend. Presto! You now have your 32nd degree. I showed up on Saturday morning as a 3d degree and left the next day as a 32nd degree

I do have a question for you Sauron. What do you make of Albert Pike? He's said some pretty outlandish things (Luciferian things if I recall) and he was pretty high up.

PP

What if you had a "high up" Freemason that was Muslim and started referring to God as Allah and Jesus as only a Prophet? Freemasonry isn't meant to slant to any specific religion, its "ecumenical". So if someone really was "Satanic", they could theoretically still be a Freemason, it doesn't mean that one person reflects all Freemasonry, not matter how high up they've made it.

Of course, that is one of our church's problems with freemasonry, is that it is too ecumenical and treats all deist religions as potentially valid.

That is what I've tried to explain to my brother. He tried to explain to us that he isn't changing his Christian faith and the Masons weren't changing it, that they are open to all faiths. Yet I tried to explain that was one of the problems, that it is a bit too open, and the "prayers" or statements are too vague.

No, it is ont the same thing. Pike spoke specifically about Luciferianism and Masonry. Also about Atlantis and Masonry. He tried to join the two. What he said was never publically disavowed by the order.

I'm not saying that it IS that way, but anyone who is a mason would at least have to address this eventually.

PP

[dcommini]

First of all, what is with so many people having St. Patrick for their avatar?

Second, as I have studied masonry and know many masons I can attest that no one person can speak for the whole organization, so even if Pike was pushing a Luciferian agenda he wasn't pushing it for the whole of Freemasonry.

Third, it is very obvious that Pike is talking about how the devil should not be called Lucifer as Lucifer means light bringer and the devil brings darkness. pike pushes for changing Lucifer bck to its original meaning and the the "god" of freemasonry brings light and therefore is Lucifer in the strictest sense going purely by the strict meaning.

Fourth, Morals and Dogma is not a Freemason hand book, but a Scottish rite hand book, but even then it doesnt speak for the whole of the scottish rite.

[primuspilus]

First of all, what is with so many people having St. Patrick for their avatar?

As I said before, I deeply respect St. Patrick, but I am also passively protesting something that I'd rather not discuss in open conversation out of respect for the admins.

pike pushes for changing Lucifer bck to its original meaning and the the "god" of freemasonry brings light and therefore is Lucifer in the strictest sense going purely by the strict meaning

So why Lucifer? Why not Helios or Mithras?

Fourth, Morals and Dogma is not a Freemason hand book, but a Scottish rite hand book, but even then it doesnt speak for the whole of the scottish rite

But why would the Scottish Rite masons allow it to go on being published if they were against it?

I know that if a guy published something stating that the Lions Club worshipped the head of an actual lion, the ink would not dry on that publication before the Lions Club had something to say about it.

PP

[88Devin12]

First of all, what is with so many people having St. Patrick for their avatar?

As I said before, I deeply respect St. Patrick, but I am also passively protesting something that I'd rather not discuss in open conversation out of respect for the admins.

pike pushes for changing Lucifer bck to its original meaning and the the "god" of freemasonry brings light and therefore is Lucifer in the strictest sense going purely by the strict meaning

So why Lucifer? Why not Helios or Mithras?

Fourth, Morals and Dogma is not a Freemason hand book, but a Scottish rite hand book, but even then it doesnt speak for the whole of the scottish rite

But why would the Scottish Rite masons allow it to go on being published if they were against it?

I know that if a guy published something stating that the Lions Club worshipped the head of an actual lion, the ink would not dry on that publication before the Lions Club had something to say about it.

PP

But I think the thing about the Freemason's, is that if they have someone that does believe Lucifer is God, and states that in a writing, even a prominent one, I doubt they would say anything because they are based upon allowing deists/theists of all sorts into their organization without bias. I don't think their lack of denial or protest is a sign that they all believe or accept that. Their silence is simply an affirmation of their openness towards all beliefs in a deity.

[primuspilus]

First of all, what is with so many people having St. Patrick for their avatar?

As I said before, I deeply respect St. Patrick, but I am also passively protesting something that I'd rather not discuss in open conversation out of respect for the admins.

pike pushes for changing Lucifer bck to its original meaning and the the "god" of freemasonry brings light and therefore is Lucifer in the strictest sense going purely by the strict meaning

So why Lucifer? Why not Helios or Mithras?

Fourth, Morals and Dogma is not a Freemason hand book, but a Scottish rite hand book, but even then it doesnt speak for the whole of the scottish rite

But why would the Scottish Rite masons allow it to go on being published if they were against it?

I know that if a guy published something stating that the Lions Club worshipped the head of an actual lion, the ink would not dry on that publication before the Lions Club had something to say about it.

PP

But I think the thing about the Freemason's, is that if they have someone that does believe Lucifer is God, and states that in a writing, even a prominent one, I doubt they would say anything because they are based upon allowing deists/theists of all sorts into their organization without bias. I don't think their lack of denial or protest is a sign that they all believe or accept that. Their silence is simply an affirmation of their openness towards all beliefs in a deity.

I understand that, but if you are publishing an idea and stating it is a handbook, or some other form of direction of an official group, and said group does not refute those teaching, then it accepts them.

If a Freemason publishes a "handbook" for Scottish Rite, and the Scottish Rite does not come out and say, "No, this is not an official teaching," then they have no problem with it. At least publically.


PP

[Sauron]

Sauron, your faith says: "Catholic- Latin Rite". How did you get around the Papal ban of Freemasonary? Why not join the Knights of Columbus instead?

I am also in the KoC. Of course, I will not be eligible for KoC membership once I convert to EO.

[Sauron]

The non-Blue Lodges degrees are not considered "higher". They are considered lateral.

And, some high degrees! Here is how to get your 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite: watch a bunch of short plays over the course of a weekend. Presto! You now have your 32nd degree. I showed up on Saturday morning as a 3d degree and left the next day as a 32nd degree

I do have a question for you Sauron. What do you make of Albert Pike? He's said some pretty outlandish things (Luciferian things if I recall) and he was pretty high up.

PP

I do not make much of him, to be quite honest. He is a famous Mason who wrote a book of philosophy in relation to the Scottish Rite. He is by no means the pope of Masonry. As I may have said in earlier posts, no man speaks for Masonry. It has no head.

Of note, the preface of Morals and Dogma states, "Everyone is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound."

[primuspilus]

The non-Blue Lodges degrees are not considered "higher". They are considered lateral.

And, some high degrees! Here is how to get your 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite: watch a bunch of short plays over the course of a weekend. Presto! You now have your 32nd degree. I showed up on Saturday morning as a 3d degree and left the next day as a 32nd degree

I do have a question for you Sauron. What do you make of Albert Pike? He's said some pretty outlandish things (Luciferian things if I recall) and he was pretty high up.

PP

I do not make much of him, to be quite honest. He is a famous Mason who wrote a book of philosophy in relation to the Scottish Rite. He is by no means the pope of Masonry. As I may have said in earlier posts, no man speaks for Masonry. It has no head.

Of note, the preface of Morals and Dogma states, "Everyone is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound."

Excellent. Thank you for that.

PP

[Sauron]

The non-Blue Lodges degrees are not considered "higher". They are considered lateral.

And, some high degrees! Here is how to get your 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite: watch a bunch of short plays over the course of a weekend. Presto! You now have your 32nd degree. I showed up on Saturday morning as a 3d degree and left the next day as a 32nd degree

I do have a question for you Sauron. What do you make of Albert Pike? He's said some pretty outlandish things (Luciferian things if I recall) and he was pretty high up.

PP

I do not make much of him, to be quite honest. He is a famous Mason who wrote a book of philosophy in relation to the Scottish Rite. He is by no means the pope of Masonry. As I may have said in earlier posts, no man speaks for Masonry. It has no head.

Of note, the preface of Morals and Dogma states, "Everyone is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound."

Excellent. Thank you for that.

PP

My pleasure. For what it's worth, I don't ever hear Masons talking about Albert Pike. I only ever hear about Albert Pike from anti-Masons. Seriously, at least in this country, it's just a fraternity.

I think if people were to see the degree, the text of which can generally be found online (although it varies slightly from state to state), they would find it to be non-deistic and in fact, Christian. In the first degree, before anything begins, the candidate is asked, "in all trials, troubles, and difficulties through life, in whom do you place your trust?" If the candidate says anything but "in God", he is not to be initiated.

The initiation also features the message, "should you ever meet upon another member of the human family...in destitute circumstances, you should contribute to his relief as liberally as his needs require and your abilities permit"

It is also instructed that one generally divides the day into three equal parts: 8 hours for work, 8 hours for sleep/refreshment, and 8 for the service of God/others. Basically, unless you are asleep or at work, you should be serving God and others.

Psalm 133 is read during the initiation degree. Also, as I mentioned in a previous post, the Holy Bible is described as the great light in Masonry and the "inestimable gift of God to man".

[LizaSymonenko]

My brother (not Orthodox) joined the Freemasons and the Shriners, we tried to convince him not to but what can you do when he's married and on his own right? lol

He wanted something to belong to and the Masons & Shriners gave him that. Of course, not that I agree with it, but he's happy...

You can ask, why do women join Sororities in College? It isn't always about alcohol, in fact I think women join sororities more for the "sisterhood" aspect than alcohol, whereas men probably join fraternities more for the parties than the "brotherhood".

Heck my dad was a member of the Lion's Club (not masonic btw) for years. Its something for men to belong to.

Of course, this is all in the United States, it may be different in Europe.

...but, that's just it.

If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?  Why not seek the "brotherhood" with other men in the parish.  Go out for pizza together....work on the church roof together...talk about your wives together!

Same with women.

When I was growing up my mom told me to never swear an oath anywhere outside of the Church.

As much pressure as there was to join a sorority, I didn't.  I don't think I am any worse off for not having joined a sorority.  I still had connections, friends, and bonded with my fellow students.

I find all I can do, and more than I can handle, in my own church parish.  I don't need to look elsewhere.

[88Devin12]

My brother (not Orthodox) joined the Freemasons and the Shriners, we tried to convince him not to but what can you do when he's married and on his own right? lol

He wanted something to belong to and the Masons & Shriners gave him that. Of course, not that I agree with it, but he's happy...

You can ask, why do women join Sororities in College? It isn't always about alcohol, in fact I think women join sororities more for the "sisterhood" aspect than alcohol, whereas men probably join fraternities more for the parties than the "brotherhood".

Heck my dad was a member of the Lion's Club (not masonic btw) for years. Its something for men to belong to.

Of course, this is all in the United States, it may be different in Europe.

...but, that's just it.

If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?  Why not seek the "brotherhood" with other men in the parish.  Go out for pizza together....work on the church roof together...talk about your wives together!

Same with women.

When I was growing up my mom told me to never swear an oath anywhere outside of the Church.

As much pressure as there was to join a sorority, I didn't.  I don't think I am any worse off for not having joined a sorority.  I still had connections, friends, and bonded with my fellow students.

I find all I can do, and more than I can handle, in my own church parish.  I don't need to look elsewhere.

I guess there is a misunderstanding, I wasn't referring to Orthodox men and women, but rather men and women in general.

[PeterTheAleut]

My brother (not Orthodox) joined the Freemasons and the Shriners, we tried to convince him not to but what can you do when he's married and on his own right? lol

He wanted something to belong to and the Masons & Shriners gave him that. Of course, not that I agree with it, but he's happy...

You can ask, why do women join Sororities in College? It isn't always about alcohol, in fact I think women join sororities more for the "sisterhood" aspect than alcohol, whereas men probably join fraternities more for the parties than the "brotherhood".

Heck my dad was a member of the Lion's Club (not masonic btw) for years. Its something for men to belong to.

Of course, this is all in the United States, it may be different in Europe.

...but, that's just it.

If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?  Why not seek the "brotherhood" with other men in the parish.  Go out for pizza together....work on the church roof together...talk about your wives together!

Same with women.

When I was growing up my mom told me to never swear an oath anywhere outside of the Church.

As much pressure as there was to join a sorority, I didn't.  I don't think I am any worse off for not having joined a sorority.  I still had connections, friends, and bonded with my fellow students.

I find all I can do, and more than I can handle, in my own church parish.  I don't need to look elsewhere.

You never had a special talent that could only be expressed outside of church? For instance, I play symphonic trombone. Try finding a church-based orchestra or wind ensemble in this town. I actually have to play in an orchestra at the local Catholic university to get time in with a nearby instrumental music group.

[Sauron]

...but, that's just it.

If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?  Why not seek the "brotherhood" with other men in the parish.  Go out for pizza together....work on the church roof together...talk about your wives together!

Same with women.

When I was growing up my mom told me to never swear an oath anywhere outside of the Church.

As much pressure as there was to join a sorority, I didn't.  I don't think I am any worse off for not having joined a sorority.  I still had connections, friends, and bonded with my fellow students.

I find all I can do, and more than I can handle, in my own church parish.  I don't need to look elsewhere.

It has nothing do to with "must" seek fellowship elsewhere, but "may". I frankly find your attitude odd. Should I enjoy lunch out with coworkers? No, sorry, I do not seek fellowship outside the church. Go to the neighborhood barbeque? Sorry, I have no need for fellowship outside the church - the Pascha glendi is enough for me!

Much is made of swearing oaths. Ok, can an Orthodox Christian be a doctor, lawyer, soldier, or president of the United States? All of these jobs require an oath upon entry.

By the way, does your church administer this forum? I want to make sure you aren't having fellowship outside the church.

[LizaSymonenko]

You miss the point.

Nobody has to swear an oath to go out to lunch with a coworker, or play in a band.

...and yes, this is an Orthodox Forum....so, I enjoy the fellowship here....but, I didn't swear any oath of loyalty to the site or her administration.

...and yes, most of my "close" friends ARE Orthodox.  I'm not enemies with anyone, but, I seek fellowship with other Orthodox....simply because the word "fellowship" to me, is a "relationship" with people I have something in common.  To me, my faith is the most important thing...and therefore, this is the fellowship that I seek.

I'm sorry you find this so surprising and odd.

I guess I am odd.

While you accuse others of making too much of swearing oaths... perhaps you make too "little" of it.

I have taken only two kinds of "oaths" in my life - the first as a godparent in my responsibilities towards the child before God, and the second to uphold and do my best in the office I hold in my parish council.

They both brought tears to my eyes, because I realized the magnitude and the gravity of swearing to do something - before God Almighty.

I take oaths very seriously....and I wish more people did.

[Sauron]

You miss the point.

Nobody has to swear an oath to go out to lunch with a coworker, or play in a band.

...and yes, this is an Orthodox Forum....so, I enjoy the fellowship here....but, I didn't swear any oath of loyalty to the site or her administration.

...and yes, most of my "close" friends ARE Orthodox.  I'm not enemies with anyone, but, I seek fellowship with other Orthodox....simply because the word "fellowship" to me, is a "relationship" with people I have something in common.  To me, my faith is the most important thing...and therefore, this is the fellowship that I seek.

I'm sorry you find this so surprising and odd.

I guess I am odd.

While you accuse others of making too much of swearing oaths... perhaps you make too "little" of it.

I have taken only two kinds of "oaths" in my life - the first as a godparent in my responsibilities towards the child before God, and the second to uphold and do my best in the office I hold in my parish council.

They both brought tears to my eyes, because I realized the magnitude and the gravity of swearing to do something - before God Almighty.

I take oaths very seriously....and I wish more people did.

Please see the text in bold. That is a shift from your current post. You previously expressed incredulity that anyone would seek fellowship outside the church. That is what I find odd. Now you have added in the condition "with oaths". That is quite a different proposition.

Why did you take either of these oaths? Why didn't you just "let your yes be your yes and your no be your no"?

Do you recite the Pledge of Allegiance? Have you ever signed a notarized document?

[yeshuaisiam]

You miss the point.

Nobody has to swear an oath to go out to lunch with a coworker, or play in a band.

...and yes, this is an Orthodox Forum....so, I enjoy the fellowship here....but, I didn't swear any oath of loyalty to the site or her administration.

...and yes, most of my "close" friends ARE Orthodox.  I'm not enemies with anyone, but, I seek fellowship with other Orthodox....simply because the word "fellowship" to me, is a "relationship" with people I have something in common.  To me, my faith is the most important thing...and therefore, this is the fellowship that I seek.

I'm sorry you find this so surprising and odd.

I guess I am odd.

While you accuse others of making too much of swearing oaths... perhaps you make too "little" of it.

I have taken only two kinds of "oaths" in my life - the first as a godparent in my responsibilities towards the child before God, and the second to uphold and do my best in the office I hold in my parish council.

They both brought tears to my eyes, because I realized the magnitude and the gravity of swearing to do something - before God Almighty.

I take oaths very seriously....and I wish more people did.

Please see the text in bold. That is a shift from your current post. You previously expressed incredulity that anyone would seek fellowship outside the church. That is what I find odd. Now you have added in the condition "with oaths". That is quite a different proposition.

Why did you take either of these oaths? Why didn't you just "let your yes be your yes and your no be your no"?

Do you recite the Pledge of Allegiance? Have you ever signed a notarized document?

Masons do take oaths, its a very well known and common practice.

There are many Christians who do NOT take oaths, can't serve in public office because they can't swear an oath of office, nor serve in juries based of their beliefs of not swearing oaths.

[LizaSymonenko]

You miss the point.

Nobody has to swear an oath to go out to lunch with a coworker, or play in a band.

...and yes, this is an Orthodox Forum....so, I enjoy the fellowship here....but, I didn't swear any oath of loyalty to the site or her administration.

...and yes, most of my "close" friends ARE Orthodox.  I'm not enemies with anyone, but, I seek fellowship with other Orthodox....simply because the word "fellowship" to me, is a "relationship" with people I have something in common.  To me, my faith is the most important thing...and therefore, this is the fellowship that I seek.

I'm sorry you find this so surprising and odd.

I guess I am odd.

While you accuse others of making too much of swearing oaths... perhaps you make too "little" of it.

I have taken only two kinds of "oaths" in my life - the first as a godparent in my responsibilities towards the child before God, and the second to uphold and do my best in the office I hold in my parish council.

They both brought tears to my eyes, because I realized the magnitude and the gravity of swearing to do something - before God Almighty.

I take oaths very seriously....and I wish more people did.

Please see the text in bold. That is a shift from your current post. You previously expressed incredulity that anyone would seek fellowship outside the church. That is what I find odd. Now you have added in the condition "with oaths". That is quite a different proposition.

Why did you take either of these oaths? Why didn't you just "let your yes be your yes and your no be your no"?

Do you recite the Pledge of Allegiance? Have you ever signed a notarized document?

Some folks will hear, but, not hear....and will see and not see....and will only follow that which is convenient and suits their needs.

I'm not forcing anything on anyone, so, don't get so upset.  I was only stating my personal opinion on the matter.

[Sauron]

Some folks will hear, but, not hear....and will see and not see....and will only follow that which is convenient and suits their needs.

I'm not forcing anything on anyone, so, don't get so upset.  I was only stating my personal opinion on the matter.

It has nothing to do with seeing or hearing or not. It has to do with your shifting your ground. Just several hours ago you asked, "If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?" That is a categorical question. There is no mention or even the implication of oaths. When I pressed you on this point, you responded, "Nobody has to swear an oath to go out to lunch with a coworker, or play in a band" and chided me for missing the point. Would you care to tell me what part of "If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?" says anything about oaths? Now who is following what is convenient?

I am clearly not the only person who read your post as written, as PeterTheAleut asked the question about playing in a band.

[LizaSymonenko]

Okay, oaths aside, I still hold to my statement....that you can find everything you want within the Church.

Granted we don't have "bands" in church, and that's not what YOU had mentioned when you said joining the masons is a path to fellowship, networking, etc.  You weren't worried about utilizing or expanding your talents. 

I believe these were your words (although you'll probably state that due to my lack of English skills I misinterpreted them)...

Speaking for myself, I have had the opportunity to participate in worthy charity work, develop public speaking and management skills, and make a few good friends.

....to which I say you can find all of the above in the Church - charity work, public speaking opportunities, management skills and great friends.

So, all I asked was why would you need to go elsewhere, if you have all these opportunities available in the Church....and if it's something "more" that is gained by becoming a Mason, I was wondering what that might be.

But, then again, there's the secrecy thing, so, I wouldn't want anyone to spill the beans.

I really don't care.  I was asking an honest question to see what it was that drew so many people in to it's snare...but, all I get back are folks trying to poke holes in my statement....and if that's the best you can do....just talk in circles.... so, be it.

After all, I was only concerned that people not endanger their souls unknowingly and without good cause.

...and what gets me...is that there aren't enough people at any church to do the work.  Nobody wants to be president, nobody wants to take on any responsibility....it's just too hard, and they don't have the time....and yet, they will gladly join some outside organization and happily volunteer their time, funds and talents.

Go figure.

[Sauron]

Okay, oaths aside, I still hold to my statement....that you can find everything you want within the Church.

How do you know what I want? Can I find a judo dojo? Can I find a sushi bar? Can I find a Star Wars fan club? Can I find an alumni association from my university?

And, let us not brush aside that you moved the goalposts by adding the "oaths" condition. You also never addressed why the oaths you took were conscionable and why didn't you just "let your yes be your yes and your no be your no".

Granted we don't have "bands" in church, and that's not what YOU had mentioned when you said joining the masons is a path to fellowship, networking, etc.  You weren't worried about utilizing or expanding your talents. 

I believe these were your words (although you'll probably state that due to my lack of English skills I misinterpreted them)...

Speaking for myself, I have had the opportunity to participate in worthy charity work, develop public speaking and management skills, and make a few good friends.

I never said that was my reason for joining, though. I simply said what I have experienced since joining.

....to which I say you can find all of the above in the Church - charity work, public speaking opportunities, management skills and great friends.

So, all I asked was why would you need to go elsewhere, if you have all these opportunities available in the Church....and if it's something "more" that is gained by becoming a Mason, I was wondering what that might be.

But, then again, there's the secrecy thing, so, I wouldn't want anyone to spill the beans.

I think I have been pretty clear about the secrecy. It's the secret handshake. But since you are down on secrecy per se, please tell me how much money you make and your body mass index.

I really don't care.  I was asking an honest question to see what it was that drew so many people in to it's snare...but, all I get back are folks trying to poke holes in my statement....and if that's the best you can do....just talk in circles.... so, be it.

After all, I was only concerned that people not endanger their souls unknowingly and without good cause.

...and what gets me...is that there aren't enough people at any church to do the work.  Nobody wants to be president, nobody wants to take on any responsibility....it's just too hard, and they don't have the time....and yet, they will gladly join some outside organization and happily volunteer their time, funds and talents.

Go figure.

If you do not wish for holes to be poked into your arguments, I recommend that you make more substantial arguments. It is laudable to be concerned of endangered souls, but I don't believe you have supported the argument that doing charity work outside the church is damning. Should a Christian never participate in the local food bank, Rotary Club, or Habitat for Humanity? For example, I am a member of Rotary International. While we engage in many works of local community service, our flagship mission is to eradicate polio worldwide. What is your church doing to eradicate polio? Do you all go into the lab after liturgy and make vaccines to ship to Liberia? I am a Shriner. Does your church operate a hospital that provides free orthopedic and burn care to children under 18? (this is not a slight - I do not think that public health efforts are the mission of the church. The point is that it is not all things to all people.) The church and the Shriner hospital are both hospitals, but they treat different ailments.

And guess what? You asked an honest question and received a perfectly honest (and courteous) answer. When the answer was innocuous, then you started moving the goalposts. I frankly think you would have preferred a more sinister answer.

Please don't project your frustrations with your own church membership's apathy on me or my church. Your church's problems are not mine. You don't know me. You don't know the church I attend or its needs. I am unaware if my church has an office of president, but not being Orthodox, I cannot imagine that is would be open to me. When I convert, I would be happy to teach Sunday school or serve in any other fashion. However, given that I am not in the church, I limit my contributions to my checkbook. If you wish to tell me your church needs a Latin to teach catechism, I'll be on the next plane.

[LizaSymonenko]

I truly do hope that when you are able, that you will take an interest in all the positions and openings available to you within the Church.

I'm not sure why you are so defensive....I wasn't attacking you....just asking why people join the masons....and so many pages later, I still don't have an answer.

I guess folks just don't know why they join, or they wish to keep it a secret.  It's all good.

I wish you all the best.

[TheMathematician]

I truly do hope that when you are able, that you will take an interest in all the positions and openings available to you within the Church.

I'm not sure why you are so defensive....I wasn't attacking you....just asking why people join the masons....and so many pages later, I still don't have an answer.

I guess folks just don't know why they join, or they wish to keep it a secret.  It's all good.

I wish you all the best.

I am not a mason, and will never be, but i can theorize why people do.

All these networking opportunities in Church are great and all, and I have met many good people through my church and OCF, but they are different than the ones an orginztion like the Masons will provide.

The Masons would provide me a step up in being able to secure a job, expecially if the interviewer is a fellow Mason.

It is similar to being an Eagle Scout, which I am. My Eagle, already a few days past my one year anniversary of gaining rank, has already helped me in interviews, for in one of my job interviews, the person interviewing me was also an Eagle Scout. I was offered the job, but due to other things i ended up not working there.

Again, I am not a Mason, but those would be my motivations, were I to join. I hope this answers your question Liza, if you agree or not

[LizaSymonenko]

Thank you for your answer.   

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

[TheMathematician]

Thank you for your answer.   

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

and i can understand that. If i were not an Eagle Scout, then the offer would be really tempting, but, by virture of my Eagle, there is nothing the Masons have to offer that I do not already have in the secular world.

[Sauron]

Thank you for your answer.   

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

[TheMathematician]

Thank you for your answer.   

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

[Sauron]

I am not a mason, and will never be, but i can theorize why people do.

All these networking opportunities in Church are great and all, and I have met many good people through my church and OCF, but they are different than the ones an orginztion like the Masons will provide.

The Masons would provide me a step up in being able to secure a job, expecially if the interviewer is a fellow Mason.

It is similar to being an Eagle Scout, which I am. My Eagle, already a few days past my one year anniversary of gaining rank, has already helped me in interviews, for in one of my job interviews, the person interviewing me was also an Eagle Scout. I was offered the job, but due to other things i ended up not working there.

Again, I am not a Mason, but those would be my motivations, were I to join. I hope this answers your question Liza, if you agree or not

First, I really respect your Eagle Scout achievement. I regret that I did not advance that far in scouting. I am very happy that my son wanted to be a Tiger Cub, and I would be thrilled if he earned his Eagle Scout.

But, while some fringe benefits in the outside world may come with being an Eagle Scout, I am imagine that you did not enroll in scouting with such concerns in mind; you would have been too young to have such concerns in mind. Rather, I imagine you enrolled and stayed within scouting as an end to itself because you saw inherent value in being a Scout. In other words, you didn't join to "get something".

Of course, I do not expect Liza to understand why you might want to be a Scout because she wonders, "If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?" She also might be surprised to learn that there is such a thing as the Boy Scout Oath, and you might not want to mention that the Boy Scouts of America describes itself as an ecumenical organization. Is not God referred to as the "Great Scoutmaster of all Scouts"?

Now that I think about it, pretty much every objection I have heard applied to Masonry could be equally applied to the Boy Scouts.

[Sauron]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

[Basil 320]

The Eastern Star is the women's masonic order.

[Sauron]

The Eastern Star is the women's masonic order.

It is an appendant body. The women who are members of the Eastern Star are not Masons.

[LizaSymonenko]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

 ...although, as a woman, I'm always using Mason Jars.  Go figure.

[TheMathematician]

I am not a mason, and will never be, but i can theorize why people do.

All these networking opportunities in Church are great and all, and I have met many good people through my church and OCF, but they are different than the ones an orginztion like the Masons will provide.

The Masons would provide me a step up in being able to secure a job, expecially if the interviewer is a fellow Mason.

It is similar to being an Eagle Scout, which I am. My Eagle, already a few days past my one year anniversary of gaining rank, has already helped me in interviews, for in one of my job interviews, the person interviewing me was also an Eagle Scout. I was offered the job, but due to other things i ended up not working there.

Again, I am not a Mason, but those would be my motivations, were I to join. I hope this answers your question Liza, if you agree or not

First, I really respect your Eagle Scout achievement. I regret that I did not advance that far in scouting. I am very happy that my son wanted to be a Tiger Cub, and I would be thrilled if he earned his Eagle Scout.

But, while some fringe benefits in the outside world may come with being an Eagle Scout, I am imagine that you did not enroll in scouting with such concerns in mind; you would have been too young to have such concerns in mind. Rather, I imagine you enrolled and stayed within scouting as an end to itself because you saw inherent value in being a Scout. In other words, you didn't join to "get something".

Of course, I do not expect Liza to understand why you might want to be a Scout because she wonders, "If you belong to the Church why must you seek fellowship elsewhere?" She also might be surprised to learn that there is such a thing as the Boy Scout Oath, and you might not want to mention that the Boy Scouts of America describes itself as an ecumenical organization. Is not God referred to as the "Great Scoutmaster of all Scouts"?

Now that I think about it, pretty much every objection I have heard applied to Masonry could be equally applied to the Boy Scouts.

Is that why i enrolled, no not at all. And i do not disagree with anything that you say, but I was refering to myself RIGHT NOW why i would not be a mason(not yelling, just emphasis), because im an eagle. I am still enrolled in Scouting as an Assistant Scoutmaster (im 19), and dont plan on leaving, because of reasons you stated. Scouting is responsible for about 90% of who I am, and I am proud to say that.(and, just for the record, i grew up rcc, and am a catechumen now, so i couldnt have recieved that formation in the Chuch)

[TheMathematician]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

[Sauron]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

No, I was just saying that women cannot be Masons, just as they cannot be Boy Scouts. Nothing else was intended. Would you have taken it as a cheap shot if I had said she can't be a Boy Scout?

[orthonorm]

It is similar to being an Eagle Scout, which I am.

*Renting of clothes and gnashing of teeth*

[ironchapman]

First of all, what is with so many people having St. Patrick for their avatar?

As I said before, I deeply respect St. Patrick, but I am also passively protesting something that I'd rather not discuss in open conversation out of respect for the admins.

pike pushes for changing Lucifer bck to its original meaning and the the "god" of freemasonry brings light and therefore is Lucifer in the strictest sense going purely by the strict meaning

So why Lucifer? Why not Helios or Mithras?

Fourth, Morals and Dogma is not a Freemason hand book, but a Scottish rite hand book, but even then it doesnt speak for the whole of the scottish rite

But why would the Scottish Rite masons allow it to go on being published if they were against it?

I know that if a guy published something stating that the Lions Club worshipped the head of an actual lion, the ink would not dry on that publication before the Lions Club had something to say about it.

PP

I remember my friend telling me about a Bishop Lucifer of Caligari from the 4th century. Known for his passionate arguments against Arianism. Some consider him a saint in Catholicism (not sure about Orthodoxy), and there is at least one Church of San Lucifero. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_of_Cagliari

How the name came to be associated with Satan is by applying a passage from Isiah 14: 3-20, which was written about a Babylonian king, to the Devil. The term originally meant light bearer and was associated with the Morning Star (Venus). Some have pointed to Origen, St. Augustine, or Tertullian as the first to use it to mean the Devil.

The association of Lucifer/Satan to freemasonery derives from what is called the "Taxil Hoax", which is just that.

From The Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon:

Neither the attributes nor personification of Lucifer or Satan play any role in the beliefs or rituals of Freemasonry. The topic is only of interest insofar as anti-masonic attacks have accused Freemasonry of worshiping Lucifer. The confusion stems from such 19th century masonic authors as Albert Pike and Albert G. Mackey who have used the term "luciferian" in its classical or literary sense to refer to a search for knowledge. John Robinson notes "The emphasis here should be on intent. When Albert Pike and other Masonic scholars spoke over a century ago about the "Luciferian path," or the "energies of Lucifer," they were referring to the morning star, the light bearer, the search for light; the very antithesis of dark, satanic evil."

Also, from A Page about Freemasonry a quote from Leo Taxil, the man who originated the Satanic-Masonic connection:

"The public made me what I am, the arch-liar of the period, for when I first commenced to write against the Masons my object was amusement pure and simple. The crimes laid at their door were so grotesque, so impossible, so widely exaggerated, I thought everybody would see the joke and give me credit for originating a new line of humour. But my readers wouldn't have it so; they accepted my fables as gospel truth, and the more I lied for the purpose of showing that I lied, the more convinced became they that I was a paragon of veracity."

Also of interest:

A confession by Leo Taxil.

taxil may be dead, but his hoax lives on.

The Leo Taxil Hoax

Wikipedia's Taxil Hoax Article

And a word of advice to the people adhering to this hoax, if your website mentions the "Illuminati" or "New World Order" or attempts to ascribe conspiracies or Satanic meanings to all sorts of otherwise easily explainable things, it's probably not all that credible of a place.

Now, I'm not all that big a fan of the masons, but let's stick to facts, shall we?

[Sauron]

How the name came to be associated with Satan is by applying a passage from Isiah 14: 3-20, which was written about a Babylonian king, to the Devil. The term originally meant light bearer and was associated with the Morning Star (Venus). Some have pointed to Origen, St. Augustine, or Tertullian as the first to use it to mean the Devil.

Absolutely correct. I was about to write about this. Thank you for doing so.

Now, I'm not all that big a fan of the masons, but let's stick to facts, shall we?

Now, why should we let facts stand in the way of holding whatever opinions we like? 

[Sauron]

Apropos to this discussion, a friend just shared the following image with me. 

[TheMathematician]

It is similar to being an Eagle Scout, which I am.

*Renting of clothes and gnashing of teeth*

meaning the benefits, come on orthonorm

im not comparing the two, or saying Scouts are Masonic, just that the benefits are of the same vein

[orthonorm]

It is similar to being an Eagle Scout, which I am.

*Renting of clothes and gnashing of teeth*

meaning the benefits, come on orthonorm

im not comparing the two, or saying Scouts are Masonic, just that the benefits are of the same vein

And I am saying you an Eagle Scout. Actually, I am screaming it at the sky.

[orthonorm]

Apropos to this discussion, a friend just shared the following image with me. 

Nice!

[vamrat]

Apropos to this discussion, a friend just shared the following image with me. 

Nice!

Masons must be a rather self-loathing lot.  Under "What I think I do" it has a guy drinking poison.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

No, I was just saying that women cannot be Masons, just as they cannot be Boy Scouts. Nothing else was intended. Would you have taken it as a cheap shot if I had said she can't be a Boy Scout?

You have heard that in California (of course) the Boy Scouts are now admitting trans-gender girl-boys.

[vamrat]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

No, I was just saying that women cannot be Masons, just as they cannot be Boy Scouts. Nothing else was intended. Would you have taken it as a cheap shot if I had said she can't be a Boy Scout?

You have heard that in California (of course) the Boy Scouts are now admitting trans-gender girl-boys.

Lady-Boy Scouts???  I thought that was only in Thailand??

[LizaSymonenko]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

   Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!

[orthonorm]

Apropos to this discussion, a friend just shared the following image with me. 

Nice!

Masons must be a rather self-loathing lot.  Under "What I think I do" it has a guy drinking poison.

Imagine what people think about Christians . . .

[Sauron]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

   Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!

Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.

[primuspilus]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

   Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!

Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.

So speaketh The Eye!

PP

[Alpo]

Apropos to this discussion, a friend just shared the following image with me. 

I'd like to an Orthodox equivalent for that. This is my suggestion for last picture.

[LizaSymonenko]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

   Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!

Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.

Hold on there....not this woman.  I always appreciate a gentleman.

...and don't be so fast to blame the women....if the men were real men....

[primuspilus]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

   Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!

Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.

Hold on there....not this woman.  I always appreciate a gentleman.

...and don't be so fast to blame the women....if the men were real men....

There are plenty. just ask the guys getting sent to human resources for opening a door for a lady.....

PP

[biro]

Thank you for your answer.   ;DI

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

   Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!

Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.

Hold on there....not this woman.  I always appreciate a gentleman.

...and don't be so fast to blame the women....if the men were real men....

There are plenty. just ask the guys getting sent to human resources for opening a door for a lady.....

PP

Never heard of that. Probably because it doesn't exist.

[orthonorm]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

   Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!

Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.

Hold on there....not this woman.  I always appreciate a gentleman.

...and don't be so fast to blame the women....if the men were real men....

There are plenty. just ask the guys getting sent to human resources for opening a door for a lady.....

PP

Turn off AM radio.

I've worked in many places and environments and I am full on etiquette guy. Never a complaint, always compliments.

[primuspilus]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

   Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!

Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.

Hold on there....not this woman.  I always appreciate a gentleman.

...and don't be so fast to blame the women....if the men were real men....

There are plenty. just ask the guys getting sent to human resources for opening a door for a lady.....

PP

Turn off AM radio.

I've worked in many places and environments and I am full on etiquette guy. Never a complaint, always compliments.

AM Radio nothin, my friend. It's happened here where I work at.

PP

[Sauron]

Thank you for your answer.  

Personally, nothing they offered would compel me to join them.

Women can't be Masons, so that's a moot point.

please, let us be charitable on these public fora, and in life. I am not perfect, but this was unnecessary as many of the things i do are

I don't understand your comment. Isn't Liza a woman? If so, she can't be a Mason.

I took what you said to be a cheap shot at Liza, which is why i reacted. If i misjudged your intent, i apologize and beg forgiveness for my judgement.

   Thank You for coming to my defense!!!  Chivalry lives!!!!

Chivalry only comes from a position of power. Women in this country have made it clear that chivalry is no longer called for.

Hold on there....not this woman.  I always appreciate a gentleman.

...and don't be so fast to blame the women....if the men were real men....

I haven't the slightest idea what "real men" is supposed to mean. I have found in modern lingo that "real man" means "man who does what women say".

In any event, western women have made it clear that they want no-fault divorce, abortion on demand, to serve as combat troops, and to be unwed mothers. Fine. They can deal with opening their own doors, changing their own tires, and picking up their share of the check.

Do I help, aid, and assist the women in my family and other women for whom I care? Absolutely. However, I have no inclination to be a free valet for women I have never met.

[orthonorm]

And people are giving Act420 a hard time about how he(?) views women? This thread is getting vile.

[primuspilus]

And people are giving Act420 a hard time about how he(?) views women? This thread is getting vile.

Actually, I was thinking this is about a frog's butt-hair away from decending into a Valentine's Day thread

PP

[Sauron]

And people are giving Act420 a hard time about how he(?) views women? This thread is getting vile.

I think we can all at least agree that the Boy Scouts is a laudable organization. 

[LizaSymonenko]

I haven't the slightest idea what "real men" is supposed to mean. I have found in modern lingo that "real man" means "man who does what women say".

In any