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Author Topic: Inquiring, however cautiously...  (Read 7820 times) Average Rating: 0
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ByzantineSerb
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« on: September 23, 2004, 08:59:08 PM »

    I have recently, with some caution, taken steps into considering Orthodoxy. Wile I may have beef with some topics, I will obviously look over them prior to bringing up any possible complaints.

    I am happily, and without regret, a man of the West. None of these modern, changing Masses for me, saith I. I truly love and enjoy an eastern divine liturgy, but I am a devotee to a wonderful western Mass. Are there any official positions by Orthodox churches concerning the Western Rites? What do people here think of this said Rite.Use?

    Pax Christi.
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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2004, 09:48:28 PM »

Well, I know there are a number of Western Rite Orthodox parishes springing up these days.  An association of them has a site at www.westernorthodox.com.  I think all the parishes in that group are in America, so if you live in America, you might want to take a look.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 09:50:56 PM by lellimore » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2004, 01:20:19 PM »

 I truly love and enjoy an eastern divine liturgy, but I am a devotee to a wonderful western Mass.

Worship should not be about what we "enjoy". We worship God because He commands us to. Odd really that you say you are a devotee to a ritual rather than to the Faith or Christ.

Which is more important to you:

Belief or ritual?

Do you belive in the infallablity of the Pope, Purgatory, indulgences, the theotokos as co-redempteress, and the other things the Roman Catholic Curch began espousing and teaching as faith after the Great Schism? If you do...then remain as a Roman Catholic and do and belive as the Pope and his bishops say.

However if you have issues with these things...and find that the Roman Catholic Church is hindering your service to God rather than helping it....then perhaps you should explore Orthodoxy.

West, East, North, South the rituals and customs are secondary to faith and service in Christ.
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2004, 03:53:14 PM »

Worship should not be about what we "enjoy". We worship God because He commands us to. Odd really that you say you are a devotee to a ritual rather than to the Faith or Christ.

AHEM...however...it is not a foregone conclusion that devotion to Christ necessarily equals abandoning the Western expression.  If it is possible to have both, so much the better.  Nowhere did he say that having to embrace the Eastern Rite would stop his becoming Orthodox.  It didn't me.

Quote
Do you belive in the infallablity of the Pope, Purgatory, indulgences, the theotokos as co-redempteress, and the other things the Roman Catholic Curch began espousing and teaching as faith after the Great Schism? If you do...then remain as a Roman Catholic and do and belive as the Pope and his bishops say.

However if you have issues with these things...and find that the Roman Catholic Church is hindering your service to God rather than helping it....then perhaps you should explore Orthodoxy.

And if you believe the latter but wish to retain only the worship which (unfortunately) is monopolized by the former...then find the nearest Western Rite parish you can and glorify God.

Excellent link to WO.com, lellimore.  Whereabouts do you live, ByzantineSerb?
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2004, 07:24:07 PM »

   Spartacus,

     I have heard that from a million and one people, and I have a simple answer: I KNOW  Smiley. As you pretty much are not aware of who I am, I pardon thee of thy offenses (kidding). Seriously though, I agree with everything you said. Many of our brothers and sisters for centuries (and still even now) were/are limited to only hearing of Christ's great life and purpose, and following His will in whatever way they can.  They probably rest in Christ's holy presence now. On the other hand, there were elaborately attired bishops who lived sumptuously who are very likely in the deep recesses of Hell. So, it all comes down to your faith and how you manifest it, not how you ritually worship.

     However, I find that I am more united to the Lord in holy liturgy, especially a virtually ancient one, much more then my mere sinful self offering my own petitions. And I find that I feel more spiritually united with the West, though I am beginning to question if that is Roman Catholic or not. Capish?  Wink

  God bless.
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2004, 07:27:31 PM »

   Sr. Pedro,

     I live in North Carolina. I am aware of a few Antiochian Orthie parishes nearby, but not any that offer a Western Rite.
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2004, 09:05:20 PM »

what a sham these western orthodox are!!! These guys are some how orthodox, yet they parade around as Roman Catholics. Oh yeah in their newsletters they have a monsignor Felix!!! Now how the Pope made him monsignor is a mystery, this is like a man just giving himself the dignity of Mitred Archpriest[well depending on the type of monsignor, becuase some monsignors can ordain and say Pontifical Masses]!! Oh yeah and there 30 minute Matins. Traditional Catholic matins from prevatican II take at least 45 mintues to say privately. How they fit in the 9[3 on ferias]readings, 9 psalms,2 hymns, and Te Deum into 30 minutes is a mystery. Very preVaticanII!!
 
"Remember the Traditional Mass form the past!! We have it here[one of their slogans] ... We are in union with antioch!! "  
How Western that is!!!

In summary, these guys have more lies than truths and prey on innocent unknowing Catholics
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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2004, 09:22:20 PM »

CatholicEagle,

Your post (insulting the Western rite Orthodox) is out of line with the purpose of this section.  This is a warning: don't let it happen again, or further action will be taken.  If you'd like to discuss the WR Orthodox, start a new thread in an appropriate area.  Thank you.



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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2004, 09:23:46 PM »

And what type of monsignor (without the grace of the episcopacy) can ordain?  You need to be a bishop to ordain.  That's basic apostolic Christianity.
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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2004, 10:14:41 PM »

what a sham these western orthodox are!!! These guys are some how orthodox, yet they parade around as Roman Catholics.

Tut, tut.  The WRO that I've visited don't parade and they're much more *Anglican* or Anglo-Catholics.

 Wink

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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2004, 10:18:17 PM »

AHEM...however...it is not a foregone conclusion that devotion to Christ necessarily equals abandoning the Western expression.  If it is possible to have both, so much the better

*Applause* for Pedro.  I would give a "Preach it, Brother!"  but thats not in my idiom.  Grin

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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2004, 10:57:04 PM »

And what type of monsignor (without the grace of the episcopacy) can ordain?  You need to be a bishop to ordain.  That's basic apostolic Christianity.  


A protonary apostolic can. He is allowed 4 pontifical Masses per year and with dispensation can ordain priests but I only have seen pictures of protonaries apostolic ordaining men in the minor orders[porter, exprcist,acolyte,lector]. In the Roman Catholic church, monsignores are above the normal clergy, and all from the simple monsignore[you know and love] to the Pope are all monsignores. Hope this explains it.
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2004, 05:43:04 AM »

As a former Western Rite Orthodox myself, I can say that I was not very impressed with it.  I think it could be called more accurately "Anglican Rite Orthodoxy" than
"Western Rite Orthodoxy".  All it is, is the Anglican Missal with an Epiclesis added. Generally a few icons are place here and there to make it look more Orthodox.  To me it has the suspicious look of a reverse Unia of sorts and seems designed mostly to appear to disgruntled Episcopalians.  The problem with that is the most of the people who are going to leave the Episcopal Church have already left. And those who are still there are not going to become Western Rite Orthodox. It certainly doesn't appeal to people born and raised in the Orthodox Church who tend to regard it as "Anglicanism in communion with Orthodoxy" (though I know that is an unfair and misleading characterization of it). And I doubt it would appeal to frustrated Roman Catholics seeking spiritual solace either.  Just my two cents.  I expect everyone to have a cow over what I said, but having personally experienced Orthodoxy's "Anglican Rite" I found it very underwhelming.
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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2004, 10:43:45 AM »


     If you want a really good history of the Western Rite and other information on it, go here:  http://occidentalis.blogspot.com/

     Its the blog of an Antiochian Western Rite seminarian.  The History is mostly in the archives.

     For my part, just to clarify the issue a little, there are actually two Western Rite liturgies that are used.  The Liturgy of St. Tikhon is the 'Anglican' one that people are referring to.  Its based on the Liturgy of a group within Anglicanism in the 18th Century who reconstructed the Pre-Schism English Missal, and who were in talks for some time with Czar Peter the Great to enter Orthodoxy.
     The other liturgy is that of St. Gregory.  Its an English translation of the Latin Liturgy propagated by St. Gregory the Dialogist (Pope St. Gregory the Great) before the Schism.  There are other Western Rite churches who use this Roman Rite.  If you get ahold of a St. Andrew's Service Book (the official one), you'll find that there are also adapted services in there for the Stations of the Cross during Lent, Ash Wednesday, Western mode of fasting, and many other services.
     Speaking personally, I'd love to see this trend continue, and see the Gallican and Mozarabic rites revived, and more use of the Liturgy of St. Mark and that of St. James in this country.  Make no mistake, I love the Byzantine Liturgies, and I'm not Western Rite.  But I also would like to see preserved the whole liturgical richness of the Church of the First Christian Millenium.

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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2004, 11:50:13 AM »

I know we are going off topic, but I like JohnCassian's suggestions (even though I've never been to a Western Rite service before  - I've hardly been to any RC masses either).

If we are to ever have ANY kind of reunion with "western" Christianity (RC's, Anglicans, Episcopalians, other Protesteants, etc.), I think we need to move forward with Western Rite Liturgies, no matter how "contrived"/resurrecting dead liturgies/whatever it may be.  Even though I'm sure I would much prefer the Eastern Liturgies myself.
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« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2004, 11:55:02 AM »

  Spartacus,

     I have heard that from a million and one people, and I have a simple answer: I KNOW  Smiley. As you pretty much are not aware of who I am, I pardon thee of thy offenses (kidding). Seriously though, I agree with everything you said. Many of our brothers and sisters for centuries (and still even now) were/are limited to only hearing of Christ's great life and purpose, and following His will in whatever way they can.  They probably rest in Christ's holy presence now. On the other hand, there were elaborately attired bishops who lived sumptuously who are very likely in the deep recesses of Hell. So, it all comes down to your faith and how you manifest it, not how you ritually worship.

     However, I find that I am more united to the Lord in holy liturgy, especially a virtually ancient one, much more then my mere sinful self offering my own petitions. And I find that I feel more spiritually united with the West, though I am beginning to question if that is Roman Catholic or not. Capish?  Wink

  God bless.

"Hold fast to the Tradition that has been been given you either in word or epistle" -- St. Paul

BYZ....Here is my point and my question: Which Tradition is the most true? And by Tradition (note capital "T") I do not mean ritual worship or custom...but what is taught and believed. If you believe in everything the Pope teaches...then remain a Roman Catholic. However if you do not, then you are duty bound by the RCC to not present yourslef for Holy Communion in that Church. (Persoanlly I abstained from sacrements in that Church for a number of years due to my non-belief...although I still attended).

If however you have issues with RC teachings that have diverged from the original Orthodox belief. Then perhaps you are better to seek out the true fullness of the New Testament Church -- the Orthdox Church.....The customs and rituals of the the particular parish you might choose to join although they are important...should be secondary to you being true.

DO you agree with everything the Pope teaches?
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« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2004, 03:31:06 PM »

These so called Western Rites are not going to attract anyone in significant numbers to Orthodoxy. Make no mistake, our "Western Rites" will insult Roman Catholics and not attract them at all. They will find it as insulting as we Orthodox find the Unia insulting. I think creating the Western Rite here in the USA where we already have jurisdiction chaos was a hideous mistake. And I know many former Western Rite Orthodoxy who feel exactly the same way. Here in South Carolina I don't think there are any Western Rite Orthodox parishes left anymore. We had nearly half a dozen just a few years ago.  Parish after parish became dissatisfied with the Western Rite, felt it was divisive and hindered intra-Orthodox relations and petitioned the bishop to change to the Eastern Rite. I just can't see how anyone thinks the Western Rite is a good idea.
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« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2004, 03:55:44 PM »

Quote
I just can't see how anyone thinks the Western Rite is a good idea.

Tell that to the native French Orthodox, all of whom I believe use the Western Rite.
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2004, 04:22:09 PM »

They will find it as insulting as we Orthodox find the Unia insulting.

And as soon as we go and install a Western Rite Pope in Rome they'll have something of a case.  Or when a major portion of the Spanish Church becomes Western Rite Orthodox and takes their property with them.

Our Western Rite Churches aren't historically Roman Churches who renounced the Pope for political gain.

And like I said before, it would be tragic for the authentically Orthodox Western liturgies to vanish from the face of the Earth which, thanks to the Novus Ordo and the Anglican Confusion they very nearly have.

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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2004, 05:21:21 PM »

They will find it as insulting as we Orthodox find the Unia insulting.

To piggyback on what JohnC said, the WRO didn't become so through the influence or proselytizing of the Orthodox.  There was no active effort to convert them; they came to us.

Kudos, JohnC and Elisha, re: the liturgical richness of the first millenium.
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« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2004, 07:59:14 PM »

As long as the Orthodox Church claims to be universal, it seems inconsistent to me to reject the Western Rite.  It seems to me that every historic rite should be resurrected in its proper region.
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2004, 08:20:34 PM »

A protonary apostolic can. He is allowed 4 pontifical Masses per year and with dispensation can ordain priests but I only have seen pictures of protonaries apostolic ordaining men in the minor orders[porter, exprcist,acolyte,lector]. In the Roman Catholic church, monsignores are above the normal clergy, and all from the simple monsignore[you know and love] to the Pope are all monsignores. Hope this explains it.

No.

Protonotaries apostolic (de numero or supranumerary) are not bishops, but priests.  They have the rank of the highest of the minor prelates, of course, but they are not bishops.  They were allowed to ordain to minor orders if the need arose and they had permission for it, but not to major orders: no dispensation can permit what is not permissible as a matter of faith (the Pope can't dispense Cardinals from the requirement to only ordain men to the priesthood, for example).  This is the reason why you've never seen pictures of protonotaries ordaining priests.  

They were allowed to wear pontifical insignia (ring, pectoral cross), vestments (liturgical and choir), and celebrate as bishops, but this was merely a privilege, not something they had a right to by their office (a bishop would have these rights).  

The title "Monsignor" can be used to address minor prelates and bishops, archbishops, etc.  This is more common in Europe and Latin America than it is here in the States.  But this does not mean that protonotaries are bishops anymore than the fact that both protonotaries and bishops at one time wore the manteletta meant that they were of the same rank: they are not.
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2004, 11:16:04 PM »

No.

Protonotaries apostolic (de numero or supranumerary) are not bishops, but priests.  They have the rank of the highest of the minor prelates, of course, but they are not bishops.  They were allowed to ordain to minor orders if the need arose and they had permission for it, but not to major orders: no dispensation can permit what is not permissible as a matter of faith (the Pope can't dispense Cardinals from the requirement to only ordain men to the priesthood, for example).  This is the reason why you've never seen pictures of protonotaries ordaining priests.  

They were allowed to wear pontifical insignia (ring, pectoral cross), vestments (liturgical and choir), and celebrate as bishops, but this was merely a privilege, not something they had a right to by their office (a bishop would have these rights).  

The title "Monsignor" can be used to address minor prelates and bishops, archbishops, etc.  This is more common in Europe and Latin America than it is here in the States.  But this does not mean that protonotaries are bishops anymore than the fact that both protonotaries and bishops at one time wore the manteletta meant that they were of the same rank: they are not.  

Are you a Roman, Mor? DO you work in some sub-subdicastery fo the office for CHristian Unity?? Your post sounds a lot like an encyclopedia.... Now what is a mantelleta?
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2004, 11:43:44 PM »

As long as the Orthodox Church claims to be universal, it seems inconsistent to me to reject the Western Rite.  It seems to me that every historic rite should be resurrected in its proper region.

I am for a mulitplicity of rights but one must ask himself why these other rites died out?  Perhaps the Holy Spirit played a part in that?

Anastasios
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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2004, 02:52:57 AM »

I am for a mulitplicity of rights but one must ask himself why these other rites died out?  Perhaps the Holy Spirit played a part in that?
Anastasios
Perhaps the intrest in rites that had diminished or died out is also the work of the Holy Ghost (or Spirit if you prefer).
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« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2004, 06:36:27 AM »

   It's more correct, alteast in my lowly viewpoint, to say that these other rites were "hijacked", not that they died.


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« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2004, 08:28:46 AM »

I am for a mulitplicity of rights but one must ask himself why these other rites died out?  Perhaps the Holy Spirit played a part in that?

Anastasios

If I can ask a naive question...pre-schism; who used the Western Rite? Of those people living under their respective Patriarchs, was it only the Roman Patriarchate and their people who used the rite? Or had it ever been used in any of the other patriarchates?
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« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2004, 09:52:33 AM »

Note 1: I meant rites not rights Wink

Note 2: MsGuided, the Roman Rite was only used organically in the Western Church although there were immigrant communities who used it in Constantinople and on Mt Athos

Keble,

It could be as you say, and as I said I am not opposed to Western Rite Orthodoxy; in fact, in certain instances I think it is a good thing--when groups of Episcopalians en masse join as a parish, for instance.

What I don't really support is the kind of Western Rite formerly practiced at such places as St Hilarion's Monastery (Milan Synod) where you have a group of people for whom the Western Rite has died out, using the Western Rite in a resurrected and scientifically "pruned" or "reconstructed" form.

If a Rite died out, as for instance the Syriac and Latin rites died out in an Orthodox context, how can we resurrect it?  A rite has to be organic and growing.  To pick up old books and guess what they are saying is not liturgy.

Now if a group of Latins or if the Oriental Orthodox en masse reunified with the Eastern Orthodox, there would be no question in my opinion that they could use their rite, because they would have a living tradition to draw upon.

Anastasios
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« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2004, 11:07:46 AM »

If I can ask a naive question...pre-schism; who used the Western Rite? Of those people living under their respective Patriarchs, was it only the Roman Patriarchate and their people who used the rite? Or had it ever been used in any of the other patriarchates?

Actually, its more correct to speak of Western Rites.  At the earliest stage of liturgical development, the liturgies in use were the Liturgy of St. James in Palestine and Syria, the Liturgy of St. Mark in Egypt and North Africa, the Liturgy of St. Peter in Rome, and the Liturgy of St. Paul (or the Liturgy of Ephesus) which was used in Asia Minor, and then was spread to Gaul, Spain, and the Celtic lands.

When Asia Minor became the seat of the Byzantine Empire, it began the process of the formation of the Imperial liturgy, which ultimately took the form of the Byzantine Rite as we know it today in the Liturgy of St. Basil the Great and the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

In the West, the Roman Rite was codified by St. Gregory the Dialogist (Pope St. Gregory the Great) c. 600 A.D., and remained substantially unchanged other than in rubrics until Vatican II.  At the same time, however, the Liturgy of Ephesus developed into discrete rites, specifically the Celtic Rite, the Gallican Rite, and the Mozarabic Rite (which was used in Spain).  As North Africa became increasingly Latinized in terms of language, and closely allied with Rome, its Liturgy came heavily under the influence of that of Rome.  When Charlemagne formed the Holy Roman Empire and added territory in Western Europe, he also propagated the Roman Rite, and forced it on the other lands, such that the Gallican and Mozarabic Rites largely died out (though the Mozarabic is still used in Toledo, Spain).  One of the two Western Rite liturgies in use in the AOCA today is this Liturgy of St. Gregory.

In Britain, the Celtic Rite was joined by an Anglo-Saxon Rite, with a heavy degree of cross-pollination, and by the Roman Rite via St. Augustine of Canterbury.  This remained an independent rite, however, until the time of William the Conqueror shortly after the Schism, when the Roman Rite was enforced on the whole nation.  In the Anglican communion over the years, there have been a number of movements to try to recover the older Liturgies, a prime example being the Pamphleteers, which movement resulted in our having ANF and NPNF, etc. in English.  One such movement, the Non-Jurors in the 18th Century, actually reassembled such an Anglican Rite, and were in talks for some time with Czar Peter the Great to become an Orthodox Church.  Though those negotiations fell through, there work remained, and became the basis for the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, which the other Western Rite now in use in the AOCA.  Its named for St. Tikhon because it was codified and approved for use through the work of St. Raphael of Brooklyn under the authority and with the approval of St. Tikhon while he was Patriarch of Moscow.

That's a thumbnail.  The Occidentalis blog I linked to earlier has a lot more detail, especially about the Western Rite in Europe.

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« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2004, 03:43:35 PM »

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I just can't see how anyone thinks the Western Rite is a good idea.

Tell that to the native French Orthodox, all of whom I believe use the Western Rite.  

Funny I saw pictures of a Roman Catholic Parish in France...and the vestments, Icons and everything were Eastern...
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« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2004, 05:23:49 PM »

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I just can't see how anyone thinks the Western Rite is a good idea.

Tell that to the native French Orthodox, all of whom I believe use the Western Rite.  

Funny I saw pictures of a Roman Catholic Parish in France...and the vestments, Icons and everything were Eastern...

Are you sure it wasn't EO?  The priest from an Orthodox parish (ROCOR I think) in Vezelay (referred to one of the 5 holy locations, Chartres being one of them) visited our parish while on vacation a couple of years ago.
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« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2004, 07:52:50 PM »

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I just can't see how anyone thinks the Western Rite is a good idea.

Tell that to the native French Orthodox, all of whom I believe use the Western Rite.  

Funny I saw pictures of a Roman Catholic Parish in France...and the vestments, Icons and everything were Eastern...
Perhaps, that was an Eastern Catholic church and they were using the church,becuase they didn't have one of their own. It also could of been one of those strange newfangled groups who combine Eastern liturigical traditions with their false faith. They are people who are either "charismatics" or "neocathecumenates"disgusting!!
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« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2004, 10:29:16 PM »

Are you a Roman, Mor? DO you work in some sub-subdicastery fo the office for CHristian Unity?? Your post sounds a lot like an encyclopedia....

Nah, man, I just read...

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Now what is a mantelleta?

This.
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« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2004, 11:30:06 AM »

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I just can't see how anyone thinks the Western Rite is a good idea.

Tell that to the native French Orthodox, all of whom I believe use the Western Rite.  

Funny I saw pictures of a Roman Catholic Parish in France...and the vestments, Icons and everything were Eastern...
Perhaps, that was an Eastern Catholic church and they were using the church,becuase they didn't have one of their own. It also could of been one of those strange newfangled groups who combine Eastern liturigical traditions with their false faith. They are people who are either "charismatics" or "neocathecumenates"disgusting!!
Nope...It was a ROman cathoic Parish. The vestments had high Eastern collars and everything. My priest showed it to me...he actually met with the French RC Priest.....and my priest commented on how since Vatican II many RC's have come to feel lost....perhaps this was one priests way of trying to get back to the basics of Orthodoxy....I don't know. There does though seem to be an increase in the number of Postate preists and parishes...as noted famously by Mel Gibsons sect.....who practice Roman Catholicism without recognizing the edicts of the Popes since Vatican II. But how or why would one become such a Rooman Catholic since obeying the Pope is one the precepts of that Church? Why not just go all the way and become Orthoodox.....that's what I did. I think many of these Roman Catholics mourn the loss of their rituals and the Latin Mass of their childhood...more than they mourn Rome's choice 1,000 years ago to break off from the rest of Christendom and Apostolic Tradition.
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« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2004, 08:03:35 PM »

There does though seem to be an increase in the number of Postate preists and parishes...who practice Roman Catholicism without recognizing the edicts of the Popes since Vatican II. But how or why would one become such a Rooman Catholic since obeying the Pope is one the precepts of that Church?

  Because some of those folks probably believe that we are living in the End Times, and that the Remnant Church is in motion. It's all Biblical, the remnant church, if I'm correct.

  It is odd though, I concur, as I supported such groups for a brief period. Seems contradictory.

 
Quote
Why not just go all the way and become Orthoodox.....that's what I did. I think many of these Roman Catholics mourn the loss of their rituals and the Latin Mass of their childhood...more than they mourn Rome's choice 1,000 years ago to break off from the rest of Christendom and Apostolic Tradition.

 First of all, it is not just about "rituals"- please knock off that fallacy. It is also about a great loss of discipline, and the amazing heresy of ecumenism and a loss of the Faith (in their eyes, [Roman] Catholic Faith).

  Why don't they? Because their title is "TRADITIONAL" Catholics.
They will likely accept the teachings and practices of the Catholic Curch prior to Vatican II (even though many accept the doctrines of that Council)- all of this includes the dealings with the venerable Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2004, 08:32:27 PM »

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I just can't see how anyone thinks the Western Rite is a good idea.

Tell that to the native French Orthodox, all of whom I believe use the Western Rite.  

Funny I saw pictures of a Roman Catholic Parish in France...and the vestments, Icons and everything were Eastern...
Perhaps, that was an Eastern Catholic church and they were using the church,becuase they didn't have one of their own. It also could of been one of those strange newfangled groups who combine Eastern liturigical traditions with their false faith. They are people who are either "charismatics" or "neocathecumenates"disgusting!!
Nope...It was a ROman cathoic Parish. The vestments had high Eastern collars and everything. My priest showed it to me...he actually met with the French RC Priest.....and my priest commented on how since Vatican II many RC's have come to feel lost....perhaps this was one priests way of trying to get back to the basics of Orthodoxy....I don't know. There does though seem to be an increase in the number of Postate preists and parishes...as noted famously by Mel Gibsons sect.....who practice Roman Catholicism without recognizing the edicts of the Popes since Vatican II. But how or why would one become such a Rooman Catholic since obeying the Pope is one the precepts of that Church? Why not just go all the way and become Orthoodox.....that's what I did. I think many of these Roman Catholics mourn the loss of their rituals and the Latin Mass of their childhood...more than they mourn Rome's choice 1,000 years ago to break off from the rest of Christendom and Apostolic Tradition.


Also, I would say that many are probably just ignorant or unwilling to investifate the happenings of the first Millenium, theological disputes, Tradition, etc.
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« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2004, 05:17:30 PM »

What are you talking about Elisha? Traditional Catholics[as in SSPX] are probably the only Romans who venerate St.Athanasius and St.Basil the Great.
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« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2004, 05:19:29 PM »

Quote
I just can't see how anyone thinks the Western Rite is a good idea.

Tell that to the native French Orthodox, all of whom I believe use the Western Rite.  

Funny I saw pictures of a Roman Catholic Parish in France...and the vestments, Icons and everything were Eastern...
Perhaps, that was an Eastern Catholic church and they were using the church,becuase they didn't have one of their own. It also could of been one of those strange newfangled groups who combine Eastern liturigical traditions with their false faith. They are people who are either "charismatics" or "neocathecumenates"disgusting!!
Nope...It was a ROman cathoic Parish. The vestments had high Eastern collars and everything. My priest showed it to me...he actually met with the French RC Priest.....and my priest commented on how since Vatican II many RC's have come to feel lost....perhaps this was one priests way of trying to get back to the basics of Orthodoxy....I don't know. There does though seem to be an increase in the number of Postate preists and parishes...as noted famously by Mel Gibsons sect.....who practice Roman Catholicism without recognizing the edicts of the Popes since Vatican II. But how or why would one become such a Rooman Catholic since obeying the Pope is one the precepts of that Church? Why not just go all the way and become Orthoodox.....that's what I did. I think many of these Roman Catholics mourn the loss of their rituals and the Latin Mass of their childhood...more than they mourn Rome's choice 1,000 years ago to break off from the rest of Christendom and Apostolic Tradition.

'What are postate priest?
Byzantine Serb is right that we Traditional Catholics are not the "Mel Gibson" sect.
We are Traditional Catholics,simple as that. Also, France has the most Traditional Latin Masses in the world. WHy wouldn't these Roman Catholics go to a local SSPX church? Paris has a huge old church, St.Nicolas du CHardonnet, run by the SSPX which gets 5,000 people for Mass each sunday
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« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2004, 12:41:27 AM »

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'What are postate priest?

Apostates- heretics, or other germane synonyms.

Quote
Also, France has the most Traditional Latin Masses in the world. WHy wouldn't these Roman Catholics go to a local SSPX church? Paris has a huge old church, St.Nicolas du CHardonnet, run by the SSPX which gets 5,000 people for Mass each sunday

  I notice that France seems to be a "breeding ground" of sorts for various Churches and religions. The SSPX is huge there, the Western Orthodox are pretty large, Islam has a lot of fruitcakes in France, etc.

  Why wouldn't they? Perhaps since they don't trust the pope, they might as well give the East a break. I don't truly know.
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« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2004, 01:45:43 AM »

What are you talking about Elisha? Traditional Catholics[as in SSPX] are probably the only Romans who venerate St.Athanasius and St.Basil the Great.

The filioque (for the most part), indulgences, Immaculate Conception and Purgatory were not in the first millenium.  And their is that ecclesiology issue as well.
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