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Poll
Question: Do you believe that Fr. Seraphim Rose should be canonized as a Saint?
Yes - 43 (62.3%)
No - 10 (14.5%)
Not Sure - 16 (23.2%)
Total Voters: 69

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« on: January 29, 2012, 01:05:01 AM »

You can give your vote and talk about why you think he should be canonized or why not, and also whether you think he actually will be or not.
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2012, 01:07:57 AM »

I voted "not sure," because... I'm not sure Smiley  He certainly seems to have made a strong (positive) impression on many people.
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2012, 03:12:12 AM »

His person should be canonized but not his teachings. Is there anyone who doubts his personal piety?
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2012, 03:37:51 AM »

There may be one member on the board who does...and he probably knows who he is.

Anyways, if he is to be canonized, it must be made clear that the Church does not endorse all of his teachings.  I fear that glorifying him will result in some of his more fervent supporters declaring that this proves he was right on everything he taught.  But nonetheless, what I know of his life, I do think he is probably amongst the saints.
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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2012, 05:41:43 AM »

Yes & know the teaching I may disagree with has disagreements elsewhere within the church.
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2012, 10:52:52 AM »


I couldn't say if he will ever be canonized or not, but would be very happy to see it happen. It's interesting when reading Fr Seraphim's writings how he will refer to "Bishop" Theophan or "Bishop" Ignatius, both of whom are now Saints.
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2012, 01:48:54 PM »

I am waiting for arguments in favour of his canonization, before I can answer.
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2012, 02:22:18 PM »

I wouldn't canonize him on the simple fact that he never wrote a survival guide on toll houses.
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2012, 02:38:03 PM »

I am waiting for arguments in favour of his canonization, before I can answer.

Piety? Ascetism?
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2012, 03:38:15 PM »

His person should be canonized but not his teachings. Is there anyone who doubts his personal piety?

Piety?  I think it depends on how much he knew of the shenanigans of Gleb Podmoshensky. 
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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2012, 04:12:23 PM »

My former priest thinks he's the bee's knees Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2012, 04:35:18 PM »

Like the Councils, the Church does nothing new when it recognizes someone as a Saint.  They only affirm what has already been known.  St. Seraphim Rose is already considered such by much of the Orthodox world.  His Icons are venerated, and people pray to him for guidance.  I voted "yes" because I, and most Orthodox Christians that I personally know, already consider him a Saint, as well as recognize his teachings as valid.
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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2012, 04:39:25 PM »

There are many of us who already believe Fr. Seraphim is a saint.  For those who would demand to know 'why?', we must be careful that we don't fall into the Western reasoning.  That is to say that the Orthodox Church doesn't have a list of criterion and an investigation team to verify said list.  But as for myself, and a great many others whom I have spoken with regarding his canonization, we feel it in our hearts.  We pray to St. Seraphim of Platina to intercede for us and he does so.  The life he lead was most exemplary because he devoted every pulse to preaching and teaching Patristics and the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

 Holy St. Seraphim, pray for us sinners.  



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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2012, 05:17:51 PM »

There are many of us who already believe Fr. Seraphim is a saint.  For those who would demand to know 'why?', we must be careful that we don't fall into the Western reasoning.  That is to say that the Orthodox Church doesn't have a list of criterion and an investigation team to verify said list.  But as for myself, and a great many others whom I have spoken with regarding his canonization, we feel it in our hearts.  

I agree with the first part of what you say, but we can go into a bit more detail than just saying we feel it in our hearts. I would say I'm not alone in believing that reading Fr Seraphim's writings helped significantly in bringing me to Orthodoxy. There are other native-English speaking Orthodox writers which have helped me, and help others - Metropolitan Kallistos being a good example - but I'll be honest in saying that there is a certain urgency in Fr Seraphim's writing that was compelling. I'd also say his writing was simpler and more straight-forward too, and I mean that as no slight on either Fr Seraphim or Metropolitan Kallistos. Given that, it doesn't surprise me that Fr Seraphim's works have been translated into Russian and Greek even though there's already a wealth of spiritual Orthodox writings in those languages already. He's added to this Orthodox treasury, without inventing anything new.

Recognizing any person as a Saint doesn't automatically mean that all their writings are considered "canonical", so whilst I appreciate concerns regarding Fr Seraphim, I don't think it's an issue. Totally divorcing the person of Fr Seraphim - the ascetic and spiritual guide - from the things he wrote is to ignore how Fr Seraphim helped bring a lot of people in the west to Orthodoxy. Fr Seraphim died before I was born, and the first contact I, and many, had with him was not through directly experiencing his intercessions, or really looking at the example of his life - all that comes later; the first contact with him, and often with Orthodoxy, is through his writings. So they're definitely part of the "why" he is recognized as a Saint already.


ps: In my last post I mentioned the people he referred to in his writings, who have since been universally recognized as Saints. I forgot to add, of course, St John of Shanghai and San Francisco, Fr Seraphim's spiritual father, who was not canonized until many years after Fr Seraphim's repose. I just think it's interesting and (perhaps) revealing that Fr Seraphim recognized and drew upon the wisdom of these Saints before they were ever officially recognized as such.
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« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2012, 05:24:02 PM »

It certainly helps for a local church to have officially glorified a saintly person as a saint. I think that for now Father Seraphim is in the same situation as Mother Olga--on the way official sainthood.
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« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2012, 06:37:12 PM »

I definitely think that Fr. Seraphim is a saint and should be canonized.

As for the Toll House issue, it's theological opinion. Fr. Seraphim's canonization would do little to change that. We still celebrate Augustine of Hippo as a saint even though he had a few odd ideas.

(Also, if Fr. Seraphim Rose is canonized soon I would love to see the reaction on Archbisop Lazar Puhalo's face the very second the news got to him  Grin)

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« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2012, 07:15:12 PM »

I definitely think that Fr. Seraphim is a saint and should be canonized.

As for the Toll House issue, it's theological opinion. Fr. Seraphim's canonization would do little to change that. We still celebrate Augustine of Hippo as a saint even though he had a few odd ideas.

(Also, if Fr. Seraphim Rose is canonized soon I would love to see the reaction on Lazar Puhalo's face the very second the news got to him  Grin)

I have a feeling that I once saw a picture of ARCHBISHOP Lazar censing an icon of Fr. Seraphim.
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« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2012, 07:21:10 PM »

James said:

"I have a feeling that I once saw a picture of ARCHBISHOP Lazar censing an icon of Fr. Seraphim."

Really? Next you'll tell me that Fr. Michael Azkoul is helping compose the Akathist to Fr. Seraphim!
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« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2012, 07:24:39 PM »

James said:

"I have a feeling that I once saw a picture of ARCHBISHOP Lazar censing an icon of Fr. Seraphim."

Really? Next you'll tell me that Fr. Michael Azkoul is helping compose the Akathist to Fr. Seraphim!

I've also seen the picture...
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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2012, 07:26:07 PM »

Well, did he know what he was doing?

That's quite a turn around from calling Fr. Seraphim a Neo-Gnostic teacher of heresy!
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« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2012, 07:42:31 PM »

i think Fr. Seraphim is definitely a Saint and will eventually be canonized. It's really only in America that he is controversial, and in my experience, he is most controversial among people who have never actually read anything by him. When I was in Serbia this summer whenever people found out we were Americans they immediately started talking about Fr. Seraphim and one priest in Belgrade asked me when he would be canonized. When I was in Greece and on Mt. Athos everyone asked about Elder Ephraim and Fr. Seraphim and he is the only American author that is sold on the Holy Mountain.

I think it is clear from reading his biography and his personal letters and the accounts of those who knew him that he attained sanctity through his ascetic struggles, and that he was a man of penetrating wisdom, moderation, and pastoral love. As he said, he crucified his mind and gained everything by it. As for his writings, everything he wrote that is considered controversial can be found in countless other Saints and in the services of the Church. He is the confirmation that even us ridiculous Americans can rise above our wholly unOrthodox culture and biases and enter into the life of God. O Venerable Father Seraphim pray unto God for us!
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« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2012, 07:47:41 PM »

I've read most of what he wrote that was published, and a good bit of the introductions/editorial stuff as well, in addition to both versions of the biography... I even wrote a long something-or-other on him that I posted here long ago... but I consider him controversial Wink
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« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2012, 07:50:20 PM »

Well, did he know what he was doing?

That's quite a turn around from calling Fr. Seraphim a Neo-Gnostic teacher of heresy!

Oh yes.  It was an icon that was quite clearly Fr. Seraphim (as in, you'd have to have never seen a picture of the man to not know this) and the Archbishop was facing him directly.  If I'm not mistaken, it was at his monastery, as well.
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« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2012, 07:53:01 PM »

Found the photo:

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« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2012, 07:59:26 PM »

Well, did he know what he was doing?

That's quite a turn around from calling Fr. Seraphim a Neo-Gnostic teacher of heresy!

I guess Archbishop Lazar wasn't so petty as Fr. Seraphim as to insist that every person who has even the slightest disagreement with him doesn't understand the spirit of Orthodoxy, isn't truly Orthodoxy or has some other massive defect. 
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« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2012, 08:08:39 PM »

Well, did he know what he was doing?

That's quite a turn around from calling Fr. Seraphim a Neo-Gnostic teacher of heresy!

I guess Archbishop Lazar wasn't so petty as Fr. Seraphim as to insist that every person who has even the slightest disagreement with him doesn't understand the spirit of Orthodoxy, isn't truly Orthodoxy or has some other massive defect. 

eeeh, where on earth do you see Fr. Seraphim saying something like this?
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« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2012, 08:12:26 PM »

Well, did he know what he was doing?

That's quite a turn around from calling Fr. Seraphim a Neo-Gnostic teacher of heresy!

I guess Archbishop Lazar wasn't so petty as Fr. Seraphim as to insist that every person who has even the slightest disagreement with him doesn't understand the spirit of Orthodoxy, isn't truly Orthodoxy or has some other massive defect. 

eeeh, where on earth do you see Fr. Seraphim saying something like this?

I remember in the biography 2.0 there were lots of snide and petty type slights at people who didn't agree with him.  Rather than just seeing someone accepting evolution, it was part of a greater anti-Orthodox worldview.   
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« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2012, 08:15:21 PM »

Was Fr. Seraphim anymore snide than St. Nektarios was in that he was against the teaching of evolution?
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« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2012, 08:19:14 PM »

Was Fr. Seraphim anymore snide than St. Nektarios was in that he was against the teaching of evolution?

I think so, but it has been ages since I've tried to wade through that sort of polemic in the original.  I recall St. Nektarios being far more humble and willing to amicably disagree. 
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« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2012, 08:32:49 PM »

i dont know that seeing evolution as part of anti-Orthodox worldview has to be snide. its easy to be deceived, and how many ppl are 100% Orthodox in everything they believe? pointing out errors is not the same as considering someone a heretic or questioning the state of their soul. Fr. Seraphim remained polite in his discourses with Dr. Kalomiros, and appreciated many of his other writings and kept up correspondence with him on other issues. Regarding Archbishop Lazar Puhalo, Fr. Seraphim specifically did not mention him by name nor make personal attacks when writing on the toll houses, but Archbishop LazarPuhalo was told by the Holy Synod to stop talking about them because he was making personal attacks.

in writings of Archbishop LazarPuhalo or those coming from his press he has accused Fr. Seraphim of being a Gnostic, a Nestorian, and a Monophysite.

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« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2012, 08:55:28 PM »

Brees is a Saint.
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« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2012, 09:12:55 PM »

i dont know that seeing evolution as part of anti-Orthodox worldview has to be snide. its easy to be deceived, and how many ppl are 100% Orthodox in everything they believe? pointing out errors is not the same as considering someone a heretic or questioning the state of their soul. Fr. Seraphim remained polite in his discourses with Dr. Kalomiros, and appreciated many of his other writings and kept up correspondence with him on other issues. Regarding Lazar Puhalo, Fr. Seraphim specifically did not mention him by name nor make personal attacks when writing on the toll houses, but Puhalo was told by the Holy Synod to stop talking about them because he was making personal attacks.

in writings of Puhalo or those coming from his press he has accused Fr. Seraphim of being a Gnostic, a Nestorian, and a Monophysite.

What I'm getting at is that Fr. Seraphim seemed to set up a litmus test of Orthodoxy on issues like evolution (the scientific evidence is overwhelming, eventually this is going to look like arguing for a flat earth) or toll houses (a mere trifle).  That's what I see as arrogant and misguided.  Ultimately I think it is harmful to take pet theological issues and raise them to such levels of importance as he did.  Furthermore his entire worldview was simply based on fantasies - Holy Russia never existed, so much of his personal philosophy might as well have been based on unicorns.  From what I've read of Fr. Seraphim (and I think I've actually read all of his major books, plus the biography remasted) he was as adamant about the minutia of Holy Russia, Evolution and Toll houses as the important parts of Orthodoxy.  It ultimately leads to the conclusion that if you reject any of of those minor things, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.  He lacked the finesse of a more refined theologian to clearly delineate that which was the core of Orthodoxy from the exterior decorations. 
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« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2012, 09:29:07 PM »

i dont know that seeing evolution as part of anti-Orthodox worldview has to be snide. its easy to be deceived, and how many ppl are 100% Orthodox in everything they believe? pointing out errors is not the same as considering someone a heretic or questioning the state of their soul. Fr. Seraphim remained polite in his discourses with Dr. Kalomiros, and appreciated many of his other writings and kept up correspondence with him on other issues. Regarding Lazar Puhalo, Fr. Seraphim specifically did not mention him by name nor make personal attacks when writing on the toll houses, but Puhalo was told by the Holy Synod to stop talking about them because he was making personal attacks.

in writings of Puhalo or those coming from his press he has accused Fr. Seraphim of being a Gnostic, a Nestorian, and a Monophysite.

What I'm getting at is that Fr. Seraphim seemed to set up a litmus test of Orthodoxy on issues like evolution (the scientific evidence is overwhelming, eventually this is going to look like arguing for a flat earth) or toll houses (a mere trifle).  That's what I see as arrogant and misguided.  Ultimately I think it is harmful to take pet theological issues and raise them to such levels of importance as he did.  Furthermore his entire worldview was simply based on fantasies - Holy Russia never existed, so much of his personal philosophy might as well have been based on unicorns.  From what I've read of Fr. Seraphim (and I think I've actually read all of his major books, plus the biography remasted) he was as adamant about the minutia of Holy Russia, Evolution and Toll houses as the important parts of Orthodoxy.  It ultimately leads to the conclusion that if you reject any of of those minor things, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.  He lacked the finesse of a more refined theologian to clearly delineate that which was the core of Orthodoxy from the exterior decorations. 

hmmm, i have found his attitude to be quite different than what you have described, but i suppose agree to disagree.
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« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2012, 10:39:11 PM »

Pardon me, but outside of primarily convert circles, most of American Orthodoxy has been little influenced by Fr. Rose and his ideas, particularly as Nectarios describes such as Toll Houses are really not accepted by the Church as a whole. That being said, as many have noted, one can be considered saintly, even if one's ideas are a bit off - like St. Augustine. Who can deny the power of the story of his life and its influence upon the times in which he lived - and much of The City of God......So perhaps in time the same will be said of Fr. Seraphim.

Anyway, Holy Mother Russia has one thing over the Holy Roman Empire. Unlike the HRE which was neither Holy, nor Roman nor an Empire, at least HMR was Russian.
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« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2012, 10:54:44 PM »

I definitely think that Fr. Seraphim is a saint and should be canonized.

Father Seraphim, if he becomes Saint Seraphim, will take on the work of role model and intercessor and protector of those struggling with same-sex attraction.

See message 1028 at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,36319.msg639792.html#msg639792

There may be two factors to contend with....

1.  Will Moscow be happy to allow the Russian Church Abroad to add to the Canon of the Saints a man who was homosexual?

2.   Fr Seraphim died with a curse on his lips according to Fr Alexey Young.  It was against his long-time monastic brother Archimandrite Gleb Podmoshensky  Given that not even saints are perfect, yet that is a strange way for any saint to pass into eternity.
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« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2012, 12:48:58 AM »

Found the photo:



I love this photo.
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« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2012, 12:53:53 AM »

There are many of us who already believe Fr. Seraphim is a saint.  For those who would demand to know 'why?', we must be careful that we don't fall into the Western reasoning.  That is to say that the Orthodox Church doesn't have a list of criterion and an investigation team to verify said list.  But as for myself, and a great many others whom I have spoken with regarding his canonization, we feel it in our hearts.  We pray to St. Seraphim of Platina to intercede for us and he does so.  The life he lead was most exemplary because he devoted every pulse to preaching and teaching Patristics and the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

 Holy St. Seraphim, pray for us sinners.  






Agreed!


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« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2012, 12:56:00 AM »

His person should be canonized but not his teachings. Is there anyone who doubts his personal piety?

Piety?  I think it depends on how much he knew of the shenanigans of Gleb Podmoshensky. 


Can you explain this please? I have read that there was an unfortunate falling out between Father Seraphim Rose and Father Herman, but I'm not sure if this is true or not.


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« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2012, 06:50:51 PM »

I definitely think that Fr. Seraphim is a saint and should be canonized.

Father Seraphim, if he becomes Saint Seraphim, will take on the work of role model and intercessor and protector of those struggling with same-sex attraction.

Officially? Semi-officially? Unofficially-officially?
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« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2012, 08:17:52 PM »

I definitely think that Fr. Seraphim is a saint and should be canonized.

Father Seraphim, if he becomes Saint Seraphim, will take on the work of role model and intercessor and protector of those struggling with same-sex attraction.

Officially? Semi-officially? Unofficially-officially?

By popular choice among the faithful.  It is happening already.  People struggling with same-sex orientation are seeking him out.
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« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2012, 08:20:19 PM »

Why?
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« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2012, 08:21:38 PM »

I definitely think that Fr. Seraphim is a saint and should be canonized.

Father Seraphim, if he becomes Saint Seraphim, will take on the work of role model and intercessor and protector of those struggling with same-sex attraction.

Officially? Semi-officially? Unofficially-officially?

By popular choice among the faithful.  It is happening already.  People struggling with same-sex orientation are seeking him out.

Ahh, true enough Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2012, 02:19:20 PM »

He is a saint, and his feast day is September 2.
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« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2012, 02:24:17 PM »

He is a saint, and his feast day is September 2.
When did that happen?

BTW I dont think he should be a saint. My opinion is that it could be a potentially devisive problem as some find the toll-house idea pretty upsetting.

Now, to play my own devil's advocate, St. Augustine's teachings have...well..we all know how that turned out.

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« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2012, 02:25:13 PM »

He is a saint, and his feast day is September 2.

wha? which jurisdiction?
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« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2012, 02:31:23 PM »

He is a saint, and his feast day is September 2.

wha? which jurisdiction?

I am guessing Knee V doesn't really mean he has been glorified by anyone, but that Fr. Seraphim is - in fact - in Paradise.  I'm further guessing that he picked September 2 as the feast day, as Fr. Seraphim fell asleep that day.
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« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2012, 03:19:22 PM »

2.   Fr Seraphim died with a curse on his lips according to Fr Alexey Young.  It was against his long-time monastic brother Archimandrite Gleb Podmoshensky  Given that not even saints are perfect, yet that is a strange way for any saint to pass into eternity.

According to his biography that was due to medicine that was given to him and after the medication ceased also the cursing ceased. Or did Hieromonk Damascene censure something from the biography?
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« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2012, 03:33:06 PM »

My spiritual father (and my Godmother) was baptized by Fr. Herman Podmoshensky and I've never heard this mentioned from him about Fr. Seraphim cursing Fr. Herman. He's said that Fr. Herman lost his balance after Fr. Seraphim passed away but nothing about a grudge being held by Fr. Seraphim. I'll ask him specifically about it the next time I talk to him.
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« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2012, 04:41:39 PM »

He is a saint, and his feast day is September 2.
When did that happen?

BTW I dont think he should be a saint. My opinion is that it could be a potentially devisive problem as some find the toll-house idea pretty upsetting.


if we follow this line of reasoning we'd have to DE-canonize a whooooooooooole lot of Saints, and rule out just about every other modern elder.
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« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2012, 04:44:49 PM »

He is a saint, and his feast day is September 2.
When did that happen?

BTW I dont think he should be a saint. My opinion is that it could be a potentially devisive problem as some find the toll-house idea pretty upsetting.


if we follow this line of reasoning we'd have to DE-canonize a whooooooooooole lot of Saints, and rule out just about every other modern elder.
Thats why I played my own devil's advocate.

PP
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« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2012, 05:20:22 PM »

Which of Fr. Separhim Rose' teachings are considered problematic?
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« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2012, 05:25:04 PM »

Which of Fr. Separhim Rose' teachings are considered problematic?
I know that a few of folks I know 'round these parts say that the big kicker is the toll house idea.

PP
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« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2012, 05:42:34 PM »

Which of Fr. Separhim Rose' teachings are considered problematic?
I know that a few of folks I know 'round these parts say that the big kicker is the toll house idea.

PP
I'd be willing to bet that most of those who say that have never read any of his books or at least the Soul After Death and checked his patristic references for veracity.

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« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2012, 05:45:27 PM »

Which of Fr. Separhim Rose' teachings are considered problematic?

I think the main thing is that many feel Fr. Seraphim basically equated his ideas on the afterlife with THE Orthodox position, and feel that Fr. Seraphim was saying you must agree with him to be Orthodox.

I've never really read much by Fr. Seraphim, so I can't comment as to whether or not he actually said such things, but these are some of the complaints I've heard from people who are less than thrilled by him.
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« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2012, 05:49:14 PM »

Which of Fr. Separhim Rose' teachings are considered problematic?
I know that a few of folks I know 'round these parts say that the big kicker is the toll house idea.

PP
I'd be willing to bet that most of those who say that have never read any of his books or at least the Soul After Death and checked his patristic references for veracity.

In Christ,
Andrew
I dunno, he's had some pretty well known critics (actually folks critical of his positions) that dont usually spout stuff off without studying.

PP
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« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2012, 06:06:45 PM »

Which of Fr. Separhim Rose' teachings are considered problematic?
I know that a few of folks I know 'round these parts say that the big kicker is the toll house idea.

PP
I'd be willing to bet that most of those who say that have never read any of his books or at least the Soul After Death and checked his patristic references for veracity.

In Christ,
Andrew
I dunno, he's had some pretty well known critics (actually folks critical of his positions) that dont usually spout stuff off without studying.

PP

I know of Abp. Lazar, who were some others?
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« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2012, 06:07:21 PM »

Which of Fr. Separhim Rose' teachings are considered problematic?
I know that a few of folks I know 'round these parts say that the big kicker is the toll house idea.

PP
I'd be willing to bet that most of those who say that have never read any of his books or at least the Soul After Death and checked his patristic references for veracity.

In Christ,
Andrew
I dunno, he's had some pretty well known critics (actually folks critical of his positions) that dont usually spout stuff off without studying.

PP

I know of Abp. Lazar, who were some others?
I thikn Fr. hopko had some words concerning Fr. Rose as well.

PP
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« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2012, 06:11:02 PM »

Which of Fr. Separhim Rose' teachings are considered problematic?
I know that a few of folks I know 'round these parts say that the big kicker is the toll house idea.

PP
I'd be willing to bet that most of those who say that have never read any of his books or at least the Soul After Death and checked his patristic references for veracity.

In Christ,
Andrew

Heh. I'd be willing to bet that most of those who say that about his critics have never read their work and checked their patristic references.
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« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2012, 06:14:11 PM »

Fr. Thomas Hopko has some opinions that I would label a bit outside the norm as well.
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« Reply #59 on: February 03, 2012, 06:16:12 PM »

Which of Fr. Separhim Rose' teachings are considered problematic?
I know that a few of folks I know 'round these parts say that the big kicker is the toll house idea.

PP
I'd be willing to bet that most of those who say that have never read any of his books or at least the Soul After Death and checked his patristic references for veracity.

In Christ,
Andrew

Heh. I'd be willing to bet that most of those who say that about his critics have never read their work and checked their patristic references.

Somewhere on the web there is an artcle by Father Michael Azkoul in which he shows where Fr Seraphim distorts both scriptural and patristic references, in order to bolster the toll houses.
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« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2012, 06:17:00 PM »

Fr. Thomas Hopko has some opinions that I would label a bit outside the norm as well.
Indeed he does, but he is still wildly popular and if he is offering criticism, it should at least be given an ear.

PP
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« Reply #61 on: February 03, 2012, 06:49:16 PM »

Fr. Thomas Hopko has some opinions that I would label a bit outside the norm as well.
Indeed he does, but he is still wildly popular and if he is offering criticism, it should at least be given an ear.

PP

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« Reply #62 on: February 03, 2012, 06:50:13 PM »

Fr. Hopko says that the toll houses are found in nearly every Church Father, although he doesnt agree with Fr. Seraphim on every detail of it. But he also gave the homily at St. Herman's Monastery on the occasion of the 20th anniversary of Fr. Seraphim's repose -- he's definitely an admirer of Fr. Seraphim.
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« Reply #63 on: February 03, 2012, 06:51:57 PM »

Which of Fr. Separhim Rose' teachings are considered problematic?
I know that a few of folks I know 'round these parts say that the big kicker is the toll house idea.

PP
I'd be willing to bet that most of those who say that have never read any of his books or at least the Soul After Death and checked his patristic references for veracity.

In Christ,
Andrew

Heh. I'd be willing to bet that most of those who say that about his critics have never read their work and checked their patristic references.

Somewhere on the web there is an artcle by Father Michael Azkoul in which he shows where Fr Seraphim distorts both scriptural and patristic references, in order to bolster the toll houses.

i dont want to make this a toll houses thread, but the problem with Abp. Lazar and Fr. Azkoul is that they aim their objection to the toll houses solely at Fr. Seraphim it seems -- but the teaching remains to be found today in so many other Saints and holy elders of our times.
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« Reply #64 on: February 03, 2012, 07:05:24 PM »

Fr. Hopko says that the toll houses are found in nearly every Church Father,

I find this claim needs expanding.  Have you listened to him on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=671etheTRzE  What he is talking about bears little resemblance to what modern tollers present and not what Fr Seraphim presents.

Concerning the teaching of the Holy Fathers he says that they teach that after death we all are purified from the passions which have attracted us in life.  It is a purification.  It is a purging.  This is NOT the tollhouse teaching which has nothing to do with purification but with judgement.  The very last thing the toll house demon-judges want is our purification.  Such a process does not interest them. They are seeking our judgement to damnation.

He also says that after death we encounter Christ -again this is something never spoken of in the toll house belief.

He also says that the purification of the passions (which he equates with the toll houses) takes place while we are dying, not in the days following. 

Would someone listen to the YouTube clip and see if I got that right.
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« Reply #65 on: February 03, 2012, 07:40:37 PM »

Fr. Hopko says that the toll houses are found in nearly every Church Father,

I find this claim needs expanding.  Have you listened to him on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=671etheTRzE  What he is talking about bears little resemblance to what modern tollers present and not what Fr Seraphim presents.

Concerning the teaching of the Holy Fathers he says that they teach that after death we all are purified from the passions which have attracted us in life.  It is a purification.  It is a purging.  This is NOT the tollhouse teaching which has nothing to do with purification but with judgement.  The very last thing the toll house demon-judges want is our purification.  Such a process does not interest them. They are seeking our judgement to damnation.

He also says that after death we encounter Christ -again this is something never spoken of in the toll house belief.

He also says that the purification of the passions (which he equates with the toll houses) takes place while we are dying, not in the days following. 

Would someone listen to the YouTube clip and see if I got that right.

I'm getting the message that the clip has been remover, Father.
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« Reply #66 on: February 03, 2012, 07:54:26 PM »

[
I'm getting the message that the clip has been remover, Father.

Annoying.  I looked it it several months ago.
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« Reply #67 on: February 03, 2012, 07:56:39 PM »

[
I'm getting the message that the clip has been remover, Father.

Annoying.  I looked it it several months ago.

You're a whiz with the Wayback Machine, Father - maybe you could summon its powers again?  laugh
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« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2012, 02:17:35 AM »

He is a saint, and his feast day is September 2.

wha? which jurisdiction?

I am guessing Knee V doesn't really mean he has been glorified by anyone, but that Fr. Seraphim is - in fact - in Paradise.  I'm further guessing that he picked September 2 as the feast day, as Fr. Seraphim fell asleep that day.

He's a saint because he's a saint, just like every other saint, whether or not any particular jurisdiction "officially" canonizes him. God - not synods - glorifies His saints.

In general, a saint's feast day is the say he/she reposed. St Seraphim of Platina reposed on Sep 2.

There is nothing that he taught that is inconsistent with historic patristic Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2012, 02:18:02 PM »

Which of Fr. Separhim Rose' teachings are considered problematic?
I know that a few of folks I know 'round these parts say that the big kicker is the toll house idea.

PP
I'd be willing to bet that most of those who say that have never read any of his books or at least the Soul After Death and checked his patristic references for veracity.

In Christ,
Andrew

Heh. I'd be willing to bet that most of those who say that about his critics have never read their work and checked their patristic references.

Somewhere on the web there is an artcle by Father Michael Azkoul in which he shows where Fr Seraphim distorts both scriptural and patristic references, in order to bolster the toll houses.

Fr. Michael Azkoul.  Now there is another sane voice of reason in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2012, 04:18:28 PM »

Which of Fr. Separhim Rose' teachings are considered problematic?

Don't know about problematic, but he was perhaps wrong about the charismatic movement, ecumenism, modernism, the antichrist, toll houses, Orthodoxy, and some other stuff. (I'm not on my own computer, I will try to elaborate more later when I have a net connection)
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« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2012, 04:58:42 PM »

From:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39719.0.html

Regarding the views of Fr. Thomas Hopko, Dean Emeritus of St. Vladimir's Seminary (OCA), on Fr. Seraphim, he gave the following speech:

http://theorthodoxword.com/back%20articles/OW%20PDFs/226/with%20my%20whole%20heart%20I%20seek%20Thee.pdf

Among other things, Fr. Thomas says:

"If ever a human being lived on this earth who
sought God with his whole heart, whatever sins or errors he may have
had—and as the Orthodox requiem service says, there is no man who
lives who does not sin—it was Fr. Seraphim Rose."



Regarding Fr. Seraphim’s reputation in Greece and other traditionally Orthodox countries, Fr. Peter Alban Heers of Thessalonica makes several comments in this podcast:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/postcards/fr._seraphim_rose_in_greece

Among other things, Fr. Peter states:

"So much so, that when I was in Serbia just a few years ago, I was impressed to see that Fr. Seraphim was, especially by many young people, really considered to be a saint. They had icons made of him, and they considered that he was a holy saint, a holy man, of the Church.

"The words of the Lord came to my mind, “A prophet has no honor in his own country.” In America, Fr. Seraphim, although venerated by many and with many miracles associated with his life after his repose, is sometimes seen as controversial because of his writings, especially on the soul after death. He is seen as controversial or just plain wrong. Whereas here in Greece, a traditional Orthodox country, we see that this book, The Soul After Death, has been the most positively received of all the books Fr. Seraphim has written.

"Really, there is, no controversy surrounding him as far as I am aware in Greece. In fact, in our own diocese, a new book on the soul after death has just been published by the Protosingulos (the second after the Bishop), and he extensively cites Fr. Seraphim’s writings and appeals to his authority on the subject of the soul after death, which is quite remarkable. This young American convert has now become an authority for Greek Archimandrites and clergy here in this Orthodox country of 2,000 years.

"There are many stories one could tell about the spread of the veneration of Fr. Seraphim here in Greece. I was just contacted a few days ago by a very zealous couple here who have done a number of translations in English. She is a Greek-speaking woman who grew up in New York, and he is a teacher of English here in Thessaloniki. They’ve done translations of publications. They have contacted me and asked that I pass on a number of names of their family to be prayed for by the monks in Platina. They told me how much love they have for Fr. Seraphim and that they have read Fr. Seraphim: His Life and Works a number of times, so much so that they feel like they have come to know Fr. Seraphim personally.

"Such stories are many here in northern Greece, at least in my experience...



Fr. Damascene of Platina makes several comments on Fr. Seraphim’s reputation in the following interview recorded by the Illumined Heart program of Ancient Faith Radio in honor of the 25th anniversary of Fr. Seraphim's repose:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/father_seraphim_rose_spiritual_father

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/fr_seraphim_rose_the_man_the_struggler

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/fr_seraphim_rose_prayer_and_orthodox_spirituality

Fr. Damascene: "Fr. Seraphim has as much veneration in Russia, in fact maybe more so than anywhere else... Now he’s being venerated in Greece. His Life and Works is in Greek, and many people venerate him in Greece. Also in Serbia, they already call him St. Seraphim."
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« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2012, 05:11:08 PM »

I dunno, he's had some pretty well known critics (actually folks critical of his positions) that dont usually spout stuff off without studying.

What is a “well known critic” and how does being “well known” imply that one can speak authoritatively on a matter?  Arius was “well known” in his day, as was Nestorius.  Judas has become quite well known also, but for the wrong reasons.  Fr. Michael Azkoul has criticized Fr. Seraphim, but I doubt many here would wish to follow Fr. Michael in his schismatic views.  The formerly vagante bishop Lazar who the OCA accepted with the title “Abp”, and then placed into immediate retirement, is perhaps the most outspoken, but his reputation is such that people should know better than to listen to him as an authoritative voice.  Are there any saintly people, men renowned for their holiness and the patristic quality of their life and teachings, who have criticized Fr. Seraphim or his works?  Have any saints of the Church criticized the tollhouse teaching as has been taught by saints of our Church?  When St. Theophan the Recluse, St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, St. John the Wonderworker of San Francisco, or the Optina Elders spoke in detail concerning the tollhouses, did any saints of their generations criticize such teachings?  If not, then one wonders who is inspiring such questionable people in our own times to speak out in protest. 
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« Reply #73 on: February 06, 2012, 05:17:09 PM »

I dunno, he's had some pretty well known critics (actually folks critical of his positions) that dont usually spout stuff off without studying.

What is a “well known critic” and how does being “well known” imply that one can speak authoritatively on a matter?  Arius was “well known” in his day, as was Nestorius.  Judas has become quite well known also, but for the wrong reasons.  Fr. Michael Azkoul has criticized Fr. Seraphim, but I doubt many here would wish to follow Fr. Michael in his schismatic views.  The formerly vagante bishop Lazar who the OCA accepted with the title “Abp”, and then placed into immediate retirement, is perhaps the most outspoken, but his reputation is such that people should know better than to listen to him as an authoritative voice.  Are there any saintly people, men renowned for their holiness and the patristic quality of their life and teachings, who have criticized Fr. Seraphim or his works?  Have any saints of the Church criticized the tollhouse teaching as has been taught by saints of our Church?  When St. Theophan the Recluse, St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, St. John the Wonderworker of San Francisco, or the Optina Elders spoke in detail concerning the tollhouses, did any saints of their generations criticize such teachings?  If not, then one wonders who is inspiring such questionable people in our own times to speak out in protest. 

The best way to avoid criticism is to attack the critic.

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« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2012, 07:27:32 PM »

I would say that in the current case, this may be appropriate.

I dunno, he's had some pretty well known critics (actually folks critical of his positions) that dont usually spout stuff off without studying.

What is a “well known critic” and how does being “well known” imply that one can speak authoritatively on a matter?  Arius was “well known” in his day, as was Nestorius.  Judas has become quite well known also, but for the wrong reasons.  Fr. Michael Azkoul has criticized Fr. Seraphim, but I doubt many here would wish to follow Fr. Michael in his schismatic views.  The formerly vagante bishop Lazar who the OCA accepted with the title “Abp”, and then placed into immediate retirement, is perhaps the most outspoken, but his reputation is such that people should know better than to listen to him as an authoritative voice.  Are there any saintly people, men renowned for their holiness and the patristic quality of their life and teachings, who have criticized Fr. Seraphim or his works?  Have any saints of the Church criticized the tollhouse teaching as has been taught by saints of our Church?  When St. Theophan the Recluse, St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, St. John the Wonderworker of San Francisco, or the Optina Elders spoke in detail concerning the tollhouses, did any saints of their generations criticize such teachings?  If not, then one wonders who is inspiring such questionable people in our own times to speak out in protest. 

The best way to avoid criticism is to attack the critic.

PP
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« Reply #75 on: February 06, 2012, 07:42:33 PM »

I dunno, he's had some pretty well known critics (actually folks critical of his positions) that dont usually spout stuff off without studying.

What is a “well known critic” and how does being “well known” imply that one can speak authoritatively on a matter?  Arius was “well known” in his day, as was Nestorius.  Judas has become quite well known also, but for the wrong reasons.  Fr. Michael Azkoul has criticized Fr. Seraphim, but I doubt many here would wish to follow Fr. Michael in his schismatic views.  The formerly vagante bishop Lazar who the OCA accepted with the title “Abp”, and then placed into immediate retirement, is perhaps the most outspoken, but his reputation is such that people should know better than to listen to him as an authoritative voice.  Are there any saintly people, men renowned for their holiness and the patristic quality of their life and teachings, who have criticized Fr. Seraphim or his works?  Have any saints of the Church criticized the tollhouse teaching as has been taught by saints of our Church?  When St. Theophan the Recluse, St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, St. John the Wonderworker of San Francisco, or the Optina Elders spoke in detail concerning the tollhouses, did any saints of their generations criticize such teachings?  If not, then one wonders who is inspiring such questionable people in our own times to speak out in protest. 

The best way to avoid criticism is to attack the critic.

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« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2012, 07:56:27 AM »

I voted "yes" for Fr Seraphim to be a saint & the collective ideas that seem to center around the Optina elders since many revere them. I also hope it is not necessary to have to even have to study  Fr Seraphim or the Optina elders etc. to be considered Orthodox.
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« Reply #77 on: February 07, 2012, 10:52:06 AM »

What I'm getting at is that Fr. Seraphim seemed to set up a litmus test of Orthodoxy on issues like evolution (the scientific evidence is overwhelming, eventually this is going to look like arguing for a flat earth) or toll houses (a mere trifle).  That's what I see as arrogant and misguided.  Ultimately I think it is harmful to take pet theological issues and raise them to such levels of importance as he did.  Furthermore his entire worldview was simply based on fantasies - Holy Russia never existed, so much of his personal philosophy might as well have been based on unicorns.  From what I've read of Fr. Seraphim (and I think I've actually read all of his major books, plus the biography remasted) he was as adamant about the minutia of Holy Russia, Evolution and Toll houses as the important parts of Orthodoxy.  It ultimately leads to the conclusion that if you reject any of of those minor things, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.  He lacked the finesse of a more refined theologian to clearly delineate that which was the core of Orthodoxy from the exterior decorations. 

These views pretty much reflect how I feel about Fr. Seraphim.  I like some of what he wrote, but I find much of it not very insightful or very contestable.  I don't understand why he has attracted so many followers.  But the Church will decide what She will decide about Fr. Serpahim, and it is not for me to say whether he is a saint or not.
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« Reply #78 on: February 07, 2012, 10:53:00 AM »

I am waiting for arguments in favour of his canonization, before I can answer.

He was the primary person that re-established strict Monasticism in North America and popularized it.

There is a counter trend that see's Monastics as wasting their time and not an appropriate way of life in Modern America.
He set an example of piety and self sacrifice in such a way that the rest of us now have living local examples to follow.

One of his primary critics during his life is famous for responding to a question about becoming a Monastic with: "Get a Job'

He should be canonized as a great Monastic and personal example to be emulated on several counts, especially for those people struggling with same sex attraction.

Does anyone really not beleive he now lives with the Saints close to God?
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« Reply #79 on: February 07, 2012, 10:57:44 AM »

Blessed Father Seraphim was an amazing person.  I was given his akathist by my spiritual father, and have prayed it several times.  I feel Fr. Seraphim helping me with my struggles.

If I've learned correctly, a saint doesn't necessarily need to go through a lengthy legal process (like in the Roman Catholic Church) to be considered a saint.  They only need to be very widely venerated by faithful.  Fr. Seraphim has that.

About his teachings on the soul after death, I understand that the Church wouldn't want to endorse wrong/heretical teachings.  But we must remember that he was only a man.  He was a blessed man who was close to God, but only a man.  He was fallible.

I consider him a saint already, if only in my little prayer corner Smiley
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« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2012, 11:20:56 AM »

I definitely think that Fr. Seraphim is a saint and should be canonized.

Father Seraphim, if he becomes Saint Seraphim, will take on the work of role model and intercessor and protector of those struggling with same-sex attraction.

See message 1028 at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,36319.msg639792.html#msg639792

There may be two factors to contend with....

1.  Will Moscow be happy to allow the Russian Church Abroad to add to the Canon of the Saints a man who was homosexual?

2.   Fr Seraphim died with a curse on his lips according to Fr Alexey Young.  It was against his long-time monastic brother Archimandrite Gleb Podmoshensky  Given that not even saints are perfect, yet that is a strange way for any saint to pass into eternity.

I realize that Irish Hermit has been muted, but I want to comment on this.

Your exactly right in saying that he will be an intercessor for people struggling with same-sex attraction.  There needs to be a saint who can share everyone's struggles, and whom people can look to as an example. 

I know a kid who struggles with same-sex attraction, I met him at Church camp.  He slept through the Sunday Liturgy  Shocked.  I asked him why, and he said that the Church hates "gays".  If only there were a saint he could pray too.



One thing, though.  Fr. Seraphim wouldn't be a "homosexual saint".  This implies that he was out to dinner and a show with his boyfriend after liturgy.  He repented of his old lifestyle, as every Christian should.  He took up his cross in monasticism.  Same-sex attraction may have been his cross in this world, but that doesn't mean that he shouldn't be a saint.  There could be countless others who also struggles with same-sex attraction, which can be a driving force into the monastic life.
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« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2012, 02:17:49 PM »

The best way to avoid criticism is to attack the critic.
 

So, by saying that Fr. Seraphim has some “well known” critics, were you only referring to Fr. Michael Azkoul and Abp Lazar, or did you have others in mind?  If the latter, then please provide links to such criticisms from those whom you believe to be “of reputation”.

From those who are “well known” or “vocal”, who have actually written critical remarks of Fr. Seraphim’s works (mostly regarding the tollhouse teaching), all of these who I am aware of have been closely associated with Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Boston.  That includes Abp Lazar and Fr. Michael Azkoul.  Reading the book entitled “Letters from Fr. Seraphim” will give a good understanding of the bitter struggle that was occurring in ROCOR between HTM and Fr. Seraphim/Platina in the 1970s, the attempts of HTM to discredit Fr. Seraphim in order to win over the convert section of ROCOR to their “party”, and Fr. Seraphim’s criticism of the HTM group and the direction that they were attempting to take ROCOR.  From Fr. Seraphim’s letters you can see that he made some very valid criticisms of the HTM circle, and that he saw them going into schism to create their own church, even a decade or more before such a schism took place.  Abp Lazar has since fallen out with HTM, and Fr. Michael and HTM are in a “church” of their own creation which consists of only three bishops in the entire world, all of whom received their formation in the same monastery (HTM).  They have communion with no one else because of their “super Orthodoxy” which is little more than a delusion which comes from pride and intellectual vanity. 

As Fr. Seraphim made many valid criticisms of the HTM crowd, this crowd may also have made some valid criticisms of his writings, but I find that these criticisms of Fr. Seraphim are largely blown out of proportions and excessive.  They do not seem sufficiently sound, objective, or dispassionate.  Met Hierotheos of Nafpaktos, an eminent author with a patristic mind who is also a hierarch in Greece, makes mention of the writings of Abp Lazar and Fr. Seraphim in his book “Life After Death”, and I think his views are valuable because of his objectivity and his reputation as a faithful follower of the patristic tradition.

While I do believe Fr. Seraphim is a saint, I do not consider him to be infallible, nor do I think that those who wish to critique his writings are necessarily inspired by the demons.  I do think, however, that such critiques should be made as objectively and dispassionately as possible, ideally by hierarchs and theological authors in traditionally Orthodox countries, and that such critiques should have a strong patristic foundation. While Fr. Thomas Hopko may not fit these criteria exactly, I do think his views are pretty objective as he was not a member of ROCOR or involved in the Platina vs. HTM tug-of-war.
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« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2012, 02:20:25 PM »

Can we have Fr. Seraphim without the toll-houses?  Cry
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« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2012, 02:27:35 PM »

Can we have Fr. Seraphim without the toll-houses?  Cry

do you ask the same of St. John Maximovitch?!
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« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2012, 02:29:38 PM »

 
There may be two factors to contend with....

1.   Will Moscow be happy to allow the Russian Church Abroad to add to the Canon of the Saints a man who was homosexual?
Father, the way this is phrased seems very inappropriate.  The way this is worded gives the impression that Fr. Seraphim was a practicing homosexual while living also as a priest and monk.  If this was the case, then certainly explain how you know this to be the case (and I have never heard such a claim before).  If you are not making this claim, please clarify.

Since when does a person’s sins prior to their conversion and prior to their entrance into monasticism get held against them when considering whether the person should be added to the calendar of saints?  Did the Church struggle over whether to “add to the Canon of the Saints a woman who was a sex addict” when St. Mary of Egypt was added to the calendar?  What sins have not been committed by those who later became saints and were added to the Church’s calendar?

2.   Fr Seraphim died with a curse on his lips according to Fr Alexey Young.  It was against his long-time monastic brother Archimandrite Gleb Podmoshensky  Given that not even saints are perfect, yet that is a strange way for any saint to pass into eternity.

According to Fr. Herman, Fr. Seraphim’s last words to him were “I'm finished with you. Damn you!"  An explanation for these words has not been given, but perhaps Fr. Seraphim saw what would become of Platina under Fr. Herman after his departure, and perhaps he was aware of the sins of Fr. Herman.  In any case, I don’t think these were his last words, but rather his last words to Fr. Herman.   
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« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2012, 02:30:40 PM »

Can we have Fr. Seraphim without the toll-houses?  Cry

Why would you want to divorce a Saint from his teachings?  His teachings have not been condemned by any legitimate section of the Church that I am aware of, particularly not in the Orthodox countries.  But if they have, and we can divorce a Saint from his teachings, I will be first in line for an Icon and service to Origen.
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« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2012, 02:32:06 PM »

Can we have Fr. Seraphim without the toll-houses?  Cry

Why would you want to divorce a Saint from his teachings?  His teachings have not been condemned by any legitimate section of the Church that I am aware of, particularly not in the Orthodox countries.  But if they have, and we can divorce a Saint from his teachings, I will be first in line for an Icon and service to Origen.
True, but it seems that sometimes a saint is mentioned with an asterisk by his name (St. Augustine instantly comes to mind). Think it would happen with Fr. Seraphim?

PP
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« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2012, 02:39:43 PM »

True, but it seems that sometimes a saint is mentioned with an asterisk by his name (St. Augustine instantly comes to mind). Think it would happen with Fr. Seraphim?

Why should Fr. Seraphim not be considered a saint?  He has appeared to many, many people have been healed through his prayers, he lived a very ascetic life, brought many to Orthodoxy, and taught nothing heretical.  Regarding the tollhouses, he simply quoted in full and discussed the teaching of St. John the Wonderworker, St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, and other glorified saints on the subject.  If the Church glorified these saints without censuring their writings on the tollhouses, why would the Church censure Fr. Seraphim's writings on the subject, or consider him less of a saint by virtue of quoting other saints on the subject?  What, if anything, did he say that St. John, St. Ignatius, and St. Theophan did not say?
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« Reply #88 on: February 07, 2012, 02:42:16 PM »

In this case there do not seem to be any teachings that are unacceptable but not all need be accepted by any particular layperson. He inspires many & they are entitled but he may not inspire all of us & we who are not inspired do not violate the will of the church either.
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« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2012, 02:43:56 PM »

Please understand, Im not attacking Fr. Seraphim. I think he is wonderful and did a huge service to American Orthodoxy. In my original post, I was simply stating that his critics' statements would have to be addressed.

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« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2012, 02:48:57 PM »

Can we have Fr. Seraphim without the toll-houses?  Cry

What is your problem with toll houses? It is a pretty legit idea.
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« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2012, 06:13:35 PM »

Can we have Fr. Seraphim without the toll-houses?  Cry

What is your problem with toll houses? It is a pretty legit idea.

ya, i dont really care for them...see the 20 page thread Undecided
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« Reply #92 on: February 07, 2012, 06:20:32 PM »

Can we have Fr. Seraphim without the toll-houses?  Cry

Can we have John Chrystostom without attributing sins to the Mother of God? Can we have Gregory of Nyssa without Apokatastasis? Can we have Elder Paisios without Greek Nationalism?
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« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2012, 06:24:03 PM »

The answer to all of those would be "Sure, but it wouldn't be nearly as fun."
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« Reply #94 on: February 07, 2012, 06:27:05 PM »

The answer to all of those would be "Sure, but it wouldn't be nearly as fun."

LOL.

It would be a lot funnier since Nationalism of Paisios drives me nuts makes me unable to comprehend any of his teachings.
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« Reply #95 on: February 07, 2012, 06:47:55 PM »

Was he really that nationalistic?  I only ask because one of his disciples, Met. Athanaius of Limassol, is very un-nationalistic.
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« Reply #96 on: February 07, 2012, 07:01:42 PM »

Elder Paisios did express a deep love for Greece and it's culture and language, but that's only natural. I don't consider him any more nationalistic than so many other saints and elders
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« Reply #97 on: February 08, 2012, 03:38:53 AM »

Was he really that nationalistic?  I only ask because one of his disciples, Met. Athanaius of Limassol, is very un-nationalistic.

That's how I understood some of his speeches that I've read. IIRC he talks about regions and culture of his childhood and contrasts those with supposed European culture which one must neglect in order to become true Orthodox. His idea is seems to be that Greece and her culture is more Orthodox than "European culture" which probably means Northern and Central Europe and her culture.
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« Reply #98 on: February 09, 2012, 01:19:04 AM »

Was he really that nationalistic?  I only ask because one of his disciples, Met. Athanaius of Limassol, is very un-nationalistic.

That's how I understood some of his speeches that I've read. IIRC he talks about regions and culture of his childhood and contrasts those with supposed European culture which one must neglect in order to become true Orthodox. His idea is seems to be that Greece and her culture is more Orthodox than "European culture" which probably means Northern and Central Europe and her culture.

Nevermind ...
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« Reply #99 on: February 09, 2012, 01:33:54 AM »

Blasphemous picture of Fr. Seraphim Rose:



As you can see, he is expressing the passion of smiling. This photo must have been altered by World Orthodoxy to discredit him.
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« Reply #100 on: February 09, 2012, 09:54:09 AM »

One word: Origen
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« Reply #101 on: February 09, 2012, 10:07:24 AM »

Blasphemous picture of Fr. Seraphim Rose:

<blasphemous image of smiling Fr. Seraphim removed>

As you can see, he is expressing the passion of smiling. This photo must have been altered by World Orthodoxy to discredit him.

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« Reply #102 on: February 09, 2012, 11:04:04 AM »

Blasphemous picture of Fr. Seraphim Rose:

<blasphemous image of smiling Fr. Seraphim removed>

As you can see, he is expressing the passion of smiling. This photo must have been altered by World Orthodoxy to discredit him.

Not everybody can be like St. Silouan the Athonite.

Please excuse me for asking because it is often tough to tell when posters are really being serious ... Are you guys serious about the smiling thing or are you, as I hope, trying to make a point with a touch of irony. Thanks!
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« Reply #103 on: February 09, 2012, 11:09:34 AM »

Blasphemous picture of Fr. Seraphim Rose:

<blasphemous image of smiling Fr. Seraphim removed>

As you can see, he is expressing the passion of smiling. This photo must have been altered by World Orthodoxy to discredit him.

Not everybody can be like St. Silouan the Athonite.

Please excuse me for asking because it is often tough to tell when posters are really being serious ... Are you guys serious about the smiling thing or are you, as I hope, trying to make a point with a touch of irony. Thanks!

Well, I do believe that it is often said that St. Silouan never laughed. Whether laughing is an impediment to holiness, I don't know.
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« Reply #104 on: February 09, 2012, 05:08:48 PM »

In this thread, someone mentioned a possible problem in Fr. Seraphim Rose' approach to the charismatic movement. Did he support this movement, speaking in tongues and all?
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« Reply #105 on: February 09, 2012, 05:11:45 PM »

In this thread, someone mentioned a possible problem in Fr. Seraphim Rose' approach to the charismatic movement. Did he support this movement, speaking in tongues and all?

definitely not! he was quite critical of it, and i guess some people may think he went too far. he discerned that it could sometimes be of demonic influence.
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« Reply #106 on: February 09, 2012, 05:13:27 PM »

In this thread, someone mentioned a possible problem in Fr. Seraphim Rose' approach to the charismatic movement. Did he support this movement, speaking in tongues and all?

definitely not! he was quite critical of it, and i guess some people may think he went too far. he discerned that it could sometimes be of demonic influence.
Were there any strains of the charismatic community present among Eastern Orthodox Christians?
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« Reply #107 on: February 09, 2012, 05:18:44 PM »

In this thread, someone mentioned a possible problem in Fr. Seraphim Rose' approach to the charismatic movement. Did he support this movement, speaking in tongues and all?

definitely not! he was quite critical of it, and i guess some people may think he went too far. he discerned that it could sometimes be of demonic influence.
Were there any strains of the charismatic community present among Eastern Orthodox Christians?

there is one priest in particular, Fr. Eusebius Stephanou, who is influenced by the charismatic movement. Fr. Seraphim speaks of his theology and shows it to be quite un-Orthodox.
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« Reply #108 on: February 09, 2012, 05:41:18 PM »

I agree with Fr. Seraphim on this. I think Charismaticism is dangerous.

PP
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« Reply #109 on: February 09, 2012, 05:44:02 PM »

Blasphemous picture of Fr. Seraphim Rose:

<blasphemous image of smiling Fr. Seraphim removed>

As you can see, he is expressing the passion of smiling. This photo must have been altered by World Orthodoxy to discredit him.

Not everybody can be like St. Silouan the Athonite.

Please excuse me for asking because it is often tough to tell when posters are really being serious ... Are you guys serious about the smiling thing or are you, as I hope, trying to make a point with a touch of irony. Thanks!

Well, I do believe that it is often said that St. Silouan never laughed. Whether laughing is an impediment to holiness, I don't know.

A well thought out homily on laughter may be found at this link. We are not all called to monastic virtue and we often forget that monks are people as well.

The Theological Necessity for Humor
http://www.pravmir.com/the-theological-necessity-for-humor/
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« Reply #110 on: February 09, 2012, 07:20:51 PM »

Blasphemous picture of Fr. Seraphim Rose:

<blasphemous image of smiling Fr. Seraphim removed>

As you can see, he is expressing the passion of smiling. This photo must have been altered by World Orthodoxy to discredit him.

Not everybody can be like St. Silouan the Athonite.

Please excuse me for asking because it is often tough to tell when posters are really being serious ... Are you guys serious about the smiling thing or are you, as I hope, trying to make a point with a touch of irony. Thanks!
The latter.
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« Reply #111 on: February 09, 2012, 08:52:28 PM »



We're always serious...........

PP
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« Reply #112 on: February 09, 2012, 08:58:53 PM »

Did I miss something? Why is everyone adopting St. Patrick avatars?
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« Reply #113 on: February 09, 2012, 09:05:40 PM »

Did I miss something? Why is everyone adopting St. Patrick avatars?
Well, I respect St. Patrick, but I am also passively protesting something that I'd rather not say on a public forum.

PP
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« Reply #114 on: February 10, 2012, 12:07:01 AM »

Did I miss something? Why is everyone adopting St. Patrick avatars?

I love Irish things.
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« Reply #115 on: February 10, 2012, 12:18:13 AM »

I love Irish things.

Good lad!  Smiley
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« Reply #116 on: February 10, 2012, 01:29:50 PM »

I agree with Fr. Seraphim on this. I think Charismaticism is dangerous.

PP
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« Reply #117 on: February 10, 2012, 02:25:10 PM »

Did I miss something? Why is everyone adopting St. Patrick avatars?
Well, I respect St. Patrick, but I am also passively protesting something that I'd rather not say on a public forum.

PP

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« Reply #118 on: July 20, 2012, 07:46:13 PM »

*bump*
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« Reply #119 on: July 21, 2012, 10:08:58 AM »

*bump*

I still think that he is a Saint.
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« Reply #120 on: July 21, 2012, 10:54:06 AM »

I think he is a saint. But due to the tempest in the teapot in this country over toll houses, I wouldn't be surprised if he was canonized elsewhere.

I know he's controversial in his own right, but I once read an even-handed assessment of the situation by OCA bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald), who basically said Fr Seraphim believed in prayer book toll houses, and the argument blew up with the then-Dcn Lev and got out of hand. They were silenced because of the public argument, not because Fr Seraphim was wrong.

Anyway, thats my assessment, but let's not get bogged down in that debate here. I don't think toll houses are a significant problem regardless. Many saints have opinions. Saint means Holy, and that should be our main criterion. I don't think anyone would argue Fr Seraphim is not in heaven, so I fail to see the problem. I hope they uncover his relics someday soon.
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« Reply #121 on: July 21, 2012, 12:22:54 PM »

*bump*

I still think that he is a Saint.

He is.
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« Reply #122 on: July 21, 2012, 02:14:40 PM »

Holy Saint Seraphim of Platina, pray for us!
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« Reply #123 on: July 21, 2012, 03:26:22 PM »

He is.

I look at Fr. Seraphim much like he looked at St. Augustine: A great example of repentance and ascetic struggle, but who, in his zeal to combat various errors, went too far in the opposite direction, resulting in some rather questionable positions (his book on the Soul After Death being an example).
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« Reply #124 on: July 21, 2012, 04:01:38 PM »

In this thread, someone mentioned a possible problem in Fr. Seraphim Rose' approach to the charismatic movement. Did he support this movement, speaking in tongues and all?

definitely not! he was quite critical of it, and i guess some people may think he went too far. he discerned that it could sometimes be of demonic influence.

I never heard of Fr. Seraphim Rose before this thread, but I would agree with him completely on this statement.
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« Reply #125 on: July 21, 2012, 04:01:58 PM »

I don't know but I certaintly do have some admiration for the man from what I know.
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« Reply #126 on: July 22, 2012, 12:02:41 AM »

He is.

I look at Fr. Seraphim much like he looked at St. Augustine: A great example of repentance and ascetic struggle, but who, in his zeal to combat various errors, went too far in the opposite direction, resulting in some rather questionable positions (his book on the Soul After Death being an example).
In fact, IIRC, Fr. Seraphim was a big advocate for St. Augustine against those who sought to disparage Augustine's legacy.
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« Reply #127 on: July 22, 2012, 08:25:12 AM »

In fact, IIRC, Fr. Seraphim was a big advocate for St. Augustine against those who sought to disparage Augustine's legacy.

Yes, he published a small book on the subject. I think many of the arguments he makes in that book are ones we can equally apply to him.
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« Reply #128 on: July 22, 2012, 10:59:31 PM »

He is.

I look at Fr. Seraphim much like he looked at St. Augustine: A great example of repentance and ascetic struggle, but who, in his zeal to combat various errors, went too far in the opposite direction, resulting in some rather questionable positions (his book on the Soul After Death being an example).

Even if that's true, still a saint
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« Reply #129 on: July 23, 2012, 03:19:58 PM »

Even if that's true, still a saint

I believe he is, but time will tell.
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« Reply #130 on: September 06, 2012, 09:49:53 AM »

its really only in America where he is controversial. He is widely loved and venerated in Orthodox countries. At his 30th anniversary this past weekend there was a Georgian abbot and a Serbian abbot who has named a kellia after him in one of his monasteries (he is the abbot of 2). There was also Bp. Daniil of the Bulgarians who spoke of how influential Fr. Seraphim has been in Bulgaria (Met. Joseph of the Bulgarians spoke of the same 5 yrs ago). While I was at Platina this past summer a bishop from Russia came with a group of pilgrims who came to America to see St. John and Fr. Seraphim. Only Americans have problems with him (well, and a certain Canadian ....)
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« Reply #131 on: September 06, 2012, 09:54:55 AM »

There is also much ignorance of basic Christian faith in the old world and that is why it does not survive in the new world by immigrants from old world Orthodox nations. He may be loved by those of the cloth & is largely unknown by most laity.
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« Reply #132 on: September 06, 2012, 10:01:33 AM »

There is also much ignorance of basic Christian faith in the old world and that is why it does not survive in the new world by immigrants from old world Orthodox nations. He may be loved by those of the cloth & is largely unknown by most laity.

my own experiences in Greece and Serbia say otherwise, and first-hand stories I've heard from many others regarding other countries. I'm sure clergy are more aware of him, but the pious laity are as well. Bp. Daniil said that after Communism fell in Bulgaria he found that amongst those who were returning to the Church (or entering for the first time) Fr. Seraphim was very popular. Just online you can find many blogs and other websites with info on him from Romania, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Russia, Georgia, etc.
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« Reply #133 on: September 06, 2012, 10:10:10 AM »

its really only in America where he is controversial. He is widely loved and venerated in Orthodox countries.
In Bulgaria, he is extremely controversial.
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« Reply #134 on: September 06, 2012, 10:16:48 AM »

As I mentioned in the other thread. It doesn't matter what we, or various people in other countries think, it's entirely up to ROCOR to canonize him.
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« Reply #135 on: September 06, 2012, 10:23:17 AM »

sure, but dont you think they would do it based on the devotion of the faithful?
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« Reply #136 on: September 06, 2012, 10:24:41 AM »

There is also much ignorance of basic Christian faith in the old world and that is why it does not survive in the new world by immigrants from old world Orthodox nations. He may be loved by those of the cloth & is largely unknown by most laity.

my own experiences in Greece and Serbia say otherwise, and first-hand stories I've heard from many others regarding other countries. I'm sure clergy are more aware of him, but the pious laity are as well. Bp. Daniil said that after Communism fell in Bulgaria he found that amongst those who were returning to the Church (or entering for the first time) Fr. Seraphim was very popular. Just online you can find many blogs and other websites with info on him from Romania, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Russia, Georgia, etc.

Well I hope your right. God bless.
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« Reply #137 on: September 06, 2012, 11:40:28 AM »

its really only in America where he is controversial. He is widely loved and venerated in Orthodox countries.
In Bulgaria, he is extremely controversial.
Our Metropolitan seems to like him and thinks Platina is wonderful.

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« Reply #138 on: September 06, 2012, 12:07:45 PM »

Our Metropolitan

Which one? Metropolitan Nikolai of Plovdiv?
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« Reply #139 on: September 06, 2012, 12:51:13 PM »

Our Metropolitan

Which one? Metropolitan Nikolai of Plovdiv?
Metropolitan Joseph.
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