Fr. Seraphim Rose...Saint?

[Ortho_cat]

You can give your vote and talk about why you think he should be canonized or why not, and also whether you think he actually will be or not.

[Asteriktos]

I voted "not sure," because... I'm not sure   He certainly seems to have made a strong (positive) impression on many people.

[Alpo]

His person should be canonized but not his teachings. Is there anyone who doubts his personal piety?

[JamesRottnek]

There may be one member on the board who does...and he probably knows who he is.

Anyways, if he is to be canonized, it must be made clear that the Church does not endorse all of his teachings.  I fear that glorifying him will result in some of his more fervent supporters declaring that this proves he was right on everything he taught.  But nonetheless, what I know of his life, I do think he is probably amongst the saints.

[recent convert]

Yes & know the teaching I may disagree with has disagreements elsewhere within the church.

[J.M.C]

I couldn't say if he will ever be canonized or not, but would be very happy to see it happen. It's interesting when reading Fr Seraphim's writings how he will refer to "Bishop" Theophan or "Bishop" Ignatius, both of whom are now Saints.

[Gorazd]

I am waiting for arguments in favour of his canonization, before I can answer.

[Achronos]

I wouldn't canonize him on the simple fact that he never wrote a survival guide on toll houses.

[Alpo]

I am waiting for arguments in favour of his canonization, before I can answer.

Piety? Ascetism?

[Νεκτάριος]

His person should be canonized but not his teachings. Is there anyone who doubts his personal piety?

Piety?  I think it depends on how much he knew of the shenanigans of Gleb Podmoshensky. 

[Asteriktos]

My former priest thinks he's the bee's knees

[Punch]

Like the Councils, the Church does nothing new when it recognizes someone as a Saint.  They only affirm what has already been known.  St. Seraphim Rose is already considered such by much of the Orthodox world.  His Icons are venerated, and people pray to him for guidance.  I voted "yes" because I, and most Orthodox Christians that I personally know, already consider him a Saint, as well as recognize his teachings as valid.

[GabrieltheCelt]

There are many of us who already believe Fr. Seraphim is a saint.  For those who would demand to know 'why?', we must be careful that we don't fall into the Western reasoning.  That is to say that the Orthodox Church doesn't have a list of criterion and an investigation team to verify said list.  But as for myself, and a great many others whom I have spoken with regarding his canonization, we feel it in our hearts.  We pray to St. Seraphim of Platina to intercede for us and he does so.  The life he lead was most exemplary because he devoted every pulse to preaching and teaching Patristics and the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

 Holy St. Seraphim, pray for us sinners.  

[J.M.C]

There are many of us who already believe Fr. Seraphim is a saint.  For those who would demand to know 'why?', we must be careful that we don't fall into the Western reasoning.  That is to say that the Orthodox Church doesn't have a list of criterion and an investigation team to verify said list.  But as for myself, and a great many others whom I have spoken with regarding his canonization, we feel it in our hearts.  

I agree with the first part of what you say, but we can go into a bit more detail than just saying we feel it in our hearts. I would say I'm not alone in believing that reading Fr Seraphim's writings helped significantly in bringing me to Orthodoxy. There are other native-English speaking Orthodox writers which have helped me, and help others - Metropolitan Kallistos being a good example - but I'll be honest in saying that there is a certain urgency in Fr Seraphim's writing that was compelling. I'd also say his writing was simpler and more straight-forward too, and I mean that as no slight on either Fr Seraphim or Metropolitan Kallistos. Given that, it doesn't surprise me that Fr Seraphim's works have been translated into Russian and Greek even though there's already a wealth of spiritual Orthodox writings in those languages already. He's added to this Orthodox treasury, without inventing anything new.

Recognizing any person as a Saint doesn't automatically mean that all their writings are considered "canonical", so whilst I appreciate concerns regarding Fr Seraphim, I don't think it's an issue. Totally divorcing the person of Fr Seraphim - the ascetic and spiritual guide - from the things he wrote is to ignore how Fr Seraphim helped bring a lot of people in the west to Orthodoxy. Fr Seraphim died before I was born, and the first contact I, and many, had with him was not through directly experiencing his intercessions, or really looking at the example of his life - all that comes later; the first contact with him, and often with Orthodoxy, is through his writings. So they're definitely part of the "why" he is recognized as a Saint already.


ps: In my last post I mentioned the people he referred to in his writings, who have since been universally recognized as Saints. I forgot to add, of course, St John of Shanghai and San Francisco, Fr Seraphim's spiritual father, who was not canonized until many years after Fr Seraphim's repose. I just think it's interesting and (perhaps) revealing that Fr Seraphim recognized and drew upon the wisdom of these Saints before they were ever officially recognized as such.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

It certainly helps for a local church to have officially glorified a saintly person as a saint. I think that for now Father Seraphim is in the same situation as Mother Olga--on the way official sainthood.

[Ninjaly Awesome]

I definitely think that Fr. Seraphim is a saint and should be canonized.

As for the Toll House issue, it's theological opinion. Fr. Seraphim's canonization would do little to change that. We still celebrate Augustine of Hippo as a saint even though he had a few odd ideas.

(Also, if Fr. Seraphim Rose is canonized soon I would love to see the reaction on Archbisop Lazar Puhalo's face the very second the news got to him  )

Proper titles added by Second Chance. Please use such titles when referring to a clergyman. Thanks.

[JamesRottnek]

I definitely think that Fr. Seraphim is a saint and should be canonized.

As for the Toll House issue, it's theological opinion. Fr. Seraphim's canonization would do little to change that. We still celebrate Augustine of Hippo as a saint even though he had a few odd ideas.

(Also, if Fr. Seraphim Rose is canonized soon I would love to see the reaction on Lazar Puhalo's face the very second the news got to him  )

I have a feeling that I once saw a picture of ARCHBISHOP Lazar censing an icon of Fr. Seraphim.

[FrAugustineFetter]

James said:

"I have a feeling that I once saw a picture of ARCHBISHOP Lazar censing an icon of Fr. Seraphim."

Really? Next you'll tell me that Fr. Michael Azkoul is helping compose the Akathist to Fr. Seraphim!

[Asteriktos]

James said:

"I have a feeling that I once saw a picture of ARCHBISHOP Lazar censing an icon of Fr. Seraphim."

Really? Next you'll tell me that Fr. Michael Azkoul is helping compose the Akathist to Fr. Seraphim!

I've also seen the picture...

[FrAugustineFetter]

Well, did he know what he was doing?

That's quite a turn around from calling Fr. Seraphim a Neo-Gnostic teacher of heresy!

[jckstraw72]

i think Fr. Seraphim is definitely a Saint and will eventually be canonized. It's really only in America that he is controversial, and in my experience, he is most controversial among people who have never actually read anything by him. When I was in Serbia this summer whenever people found out we were Americans they immediately started talking about Fr. Seraphim and one priest in Belgrade asked me when he would be canonized. When I was in Greece and on Mt. Athos everyone asked about Elder Ephraim and Fr. Seraphim and he is the only American author that is sold on the Holy Mountain.

I think it is clear from reading his biography and his personal letters and the accounts of those who knew him that he attained sanctity through his ascetic struggles, and that he was a man of penetrating wisdom, moderation, and pastoral love. As he said, he crucified his mind and gained everything by it. As for his writings, everything he wrote that is considered controversial can be found in countless other Saints and in the services of the Church. He is the confirmation that even us ridiculous Americans can rise above our wholly unOrthodox culture and biases and enter into the life of God. O Venerable Father Seraphim pray unto God for us!

[Asteriktos]

I've read most of what he wrote that was published, and a good bit of the introductions/editorial stuff as well, in addition to both versions of the biography... I even wrote a long something-or-other on him that I posted here long ago... but I consider him controversial

[JamesRottnek]

Well, did he know what he was doing?

That's quite a turn around from calling Fr. Seraphim a Neo-Gnostic teacher of heresy!

Oh yes.  It was an icon that was quite clearly Fr. Seraphim (as in, you'd have to have never seen a picture of the man to not know this) and the Archbishop was facing him directly.  If I'm not mistaken, it was at his monastery, as well.

[JamesRottnek]

Found the photo:

[Νεκτάριος]

Well, did he know what he was doing?

That's quite a turn around from calling Fr. Seraphim a Neo-Gnostic teacher of heresy!

I guess Archbishop Lazar wasn't so petty as Fr. Seraphim as to insist that every person who has even the slightest disagreement with him doesn't understand the spirit of Orthodoxy, isn't truly Orthodoxy or has some other massive defect. 

[jckstraw72]

Well, did he know what he was doing?

That's quite a turn around from calling Fr. Seraphim a Neo-Gnostic teacher of heresy!

I guess Archbishop Lazar wasn't so petty as Fr. Seraphim as to insist that every person who has even the slightest disagreement with him doesn't understand the spirit of Orthodoxy, isn't truly Orthodoxy or has some other massive defect. 

eeeh, where on earth do you see Fr. Seraphim saying something like this?

[Νεκτάριος]

Well, did he know what he was doing?

That's quite a turn around from calling Fr. Seraphim a Neo-Gnostic teacher of heresy!

I guess Archbishop Lazar wasn't so petty as Fr. Seraphim as to insist that every person who has even the slightest disagreement with him doesn't understand the spirit of Orthodoxy, isn't truly Orthodoxy or has some other massive defect. 

eeeh, where on earth do you see Fr. Seraphim saying something like this?

I remember in the biography 2.0 there were lots of snide and petty type slights at people who didn't agree with him.  Rather than just seeing someone accepting evolution, it was part of a greater anti-Orthodox worldview.   

[FrAugustineFetter]

Was Fr. Seraphim anymore snide than St. Nektarios was in that he was against the teaching of evolution?

[Νεκτάριος]

Was Fr. Seraphim anymore snide than St. Nektarios was in that he was against the teaching of evolution?

I think so, but it has been ages since I've tried to wade through that sort of polemic in the original.  I recall St. Nektarios being far more humble and willing to amicably disagree. 

[jckstraw72]

i dont know that seeing evolution as part of anti-Orthodox worldview has to be snide. its easy to be deceived, and how many ppl are 100% Orthodox in everything they believe? pointing out errors is not the same as considering someone a heretic or questioning the state of their soul. Fr. Seraphim remained polite in his discourses with Dr. Kalomiros, and appreciated many of his other writings and kept up correspondence with him on other issues. Regarding Archbishop Lazar Puhalo, Fr. Seraphim specifically did not mention him by name nor make personal attacks when writing on the toll houses, but Archbishop LazarPuhalo was told by the Holy Synod to stop talking about them because he was making personal attacks.

in writings of Archbishop LazarPuhalo or those coming from his press he has accused Fr. Seraphim of being a Gnostic, a Nestorian, and a Monophysite.

Proper titles added by Second Chance. Please use such titles when referring to a clergyman. Thanks.

[Jetavan]

Brees is a Saint.

[Νεκτάριος]

i dont know that seeing evolution as part of anti-Orthodox worldview has to be snide. its easy to be deceived, and how many ppl are 100% Orthodox in everything they believe? pointing out errors is not the same as considering someone a heretic or questioning the state of their soul. Fr. Seraphim remained polite in his discourses with Dr. Kalomiros, and appreciated many of his other writings and kept up correspondence with him on other issues. Regarding Lazar Puhalo, Fr. Seraphim specifically did not mention him by name nor make personal attacks when writing on the toll houses, but Puhalo was told by the Holy Synod to stop talking about them because he was making personal attacks.

in writings of Puhalo or those coming from his press he has accused Fr. Seraphim of being a Gnostic, a Nestorian, and a Monophysite.

What I'm getting at is that Fr. Seraphim seemed to set up a litmus test of Orthodoxy on issues like evolution (the scientific evidence is overwhelming, eventually this is going to look like arguing for a flat earth) or toll houses (a mere trifle).  That's what I see as arrogant and misguided.  Ultimately I think it is harmful to take pet theological issues and raise them to such levels of importance as he did.  Furthermore his entire worldview was simply based on fantasies - Holy Russia never existed, so much of his personal philosophy might as well have been based on unicorns.  From what I've read of Fr. Seraphim (and I think I've actually read all of his major books, plus the biography remasted) he was as adamant about the minutia of Holy Russia, Evolution and Toll houses as the important parts of Orthodoxy.  It ultimately leads to the conclusion that if you reject any of of those minor things, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.  He lacked the finesse of a more refined theologian to clearly delineate that which was the core of Orthodoxy from the exterior decorations. 

[jckstraw72]

i dont know that seeing evolution as part of anti-Orthodox worldview has to be snide. its easy to be deceived, and how many ppl are 100% Orthodox in everything they believe? pointing out errors is not the same as considering someone a heretic or questioning the state of their soul. Fr. Seraphim remained polite in his discourses with Dr. Kalomiros, and appreciated many of his other writings and kept up correspondence with him on other issues. Regarding Lazar Puhalo, Fr. Seraphim specifically did not mention him by name nor make personal attacks when writing on the toll houses, but Puhalo was told by the Holy Synod to stop talking about them because he was making personal attacks.

in writings of Puhalo or those coming from his press he has accused Fr. Seraphim of being a Gnostic, a Nestorian, and a Monophysite.

What I'm getting at is that Fr. Seraphim seemed to set up a litmus test of Orthodoxy on issues like evolution (the scientific evidence is overwhelming, eventually this is going to look like arguing for a flat earth) or toll houses (a mere trifle).  That's what I see as arrogant and misguided.  Ultimately I think it is harmful to take pet theological issues and raise them to such levels of importance as he did.  Furthermore his entire worldview was simply based on fantasies - Holy Russia never existed, so much of his personal philosophy might as well have been based on unicorns.  From what I've read of Fr. Seraphim (and I think I've actually read all of his major books, plus the biography remasted) he was as adamant about the minutia of Holy Russia, Evolution and Toll houses as the important parts of Orthodoxy.  It ultimately leads to the conclusion that if you reject any of of those minor things, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.  He lacked the finesse of a more refined theologian to clearly delineate that which was the core of Orthodoxy from the exterior decorations. 

hmmm, i have found his attitude to be quite different than what you have described, but i suppose agree to disagree.

[podkarpatska]

Pardon me, but outside of primarily convert circles, most of American Orthodoxy has been little influenced by Fr. Rose and his ideas, particularly as Nectarios describes such as Toll Houses are really not accepted by the Church as a whole. That being said, as many have noted, one can be considered saintly, even if one's ideas are a bit off - like St. Augustine. Who can deny the power of the story of his life and its influence upon the times in which he lived - and much of The City of God......So perhaps in time the same will be said of Fr. Seraphim.

Anyway, Holy Mother Russia has one thing over the Holy Roman Empire. Unlike the HRE which was neither Holy, nor Roman nor an Empire, at least HMR was Russian.

[Irish Hermit]

I definitely think that Fr. Seraphim is a saint and should be canonized.

Father Seraphim, if he becomes Saint Seraphim, will take on the work of role model and intercessor and protector of those struggling with same-sex attraction.

See message 1028 at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,36319.msg639792.html#msg639792

There may be two factors to contend with....

1.  Will Moscow be happy to allow the Russian Church Abroad to add to the Canon of the Saints a man who was homosexual?

2.   Fr Seraphim died with a curse on his lips according to Fr Alexey Young.  It was against his long-time monastic brother Archimandrite Gleb Podmoshensky  Given that not even saints are perfect, yet that is a strange way for any saint to pass into eternity.

[akimori makoto]

Found the photo:

I love this photo.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

There are many of us who already believe Fr. Seraphim is a saint.  For those who would demand to know 'why?', we must be careful that we don't fall into the Western reasoning.  That is to say that the Orthodox Church doesn't have a list of criterion and an investigation team to verify said list.  But as for myself, and a great many others whom I have spoken with regarding his canonization, we feel it in our hearts.  We pray to St. Seraphim of Platina to intercede for us and he does so.  The life he lead was most exemplary because he devoted every pulse to preaching and teaching Patristics and the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

 Holy St. Seraphim, pray for us sinners.  

Agreed!


Selam

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

His person should be canonized but not his teachings. Is there anyone who doubts his personal piety?

Piety?  I think it depends on how much he knew of the shenanigans of Gleb Podmoshensky. 

Can you explain this please? I have read that there was an unfortunate falling out between Father Seraphim Rose and Father Herman, but I'm not sure if this is true or not.


Selam

[Asteriktos]

I definitely think that Fr. Seraphim is a saint and should be canonized.

Father Seraphim, if he becomes Saint Seraphim, will take on the work of role model and intercessor and protector of those struggling with same-sex attraction.

Officially? Semi-officially? Unofficially-officially?

[Irish Hermit]

I definitely think that Fr. Seraphim is a saint and should be canonized.

Father Seraphim, if he becomes Saint Seraphim, will take on the work of role model and intercessor and protector of those struggling with same-sex attraction.

Officially? Semi-officially? Unofficially-officially?

By popular choice among the faithful.  It is happening already.  People struggling with same-sex orientation are seeking him out.

[Achronos]

Found the photo:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/images/6/6a/Puhalo.jpg

I love this photo.

Why?

[Asteriktos]

I definitely think that Fr. Seraphim is a saint and should be canonized.

Father Seraphim, if he becomes Saint Seraphim, will take on the work of role model and intercessor and protector of those struggling with same-sex attraction.

Officially? Semi-officially? Unofficially-officially?

By popular choice among the faithful.  It is happening already.  People struggling with same-sex orientation are seeking him out.

Ahh, true enough

[Knee V]

He is a saint, and his feast day is September 2.

[primuspilus]

He is a saint, and his feast day is September 2.

When did that happen?

BTW I dont think he should be a saint. My opinion is that it could be a potentially devisive problem as some find the toll-house idea pretty upsetting.

Now, to play my own devil's advocate, St. Augustine's teachings have...well..we all know how that turned out.

PP

[Ortho_cat]

He is a saint, and his feast day is September 2.

wha? which jurisdiction?

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