Author Topic: Mitered Deacon?  (Read 4665 times)

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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Mitered Deacon?
« on: January 28, 2012, 01:33:23 AM »
While goofing around today, I found this picture:



Unfortunately, the photo is on a tourist site and not an Orthodox one. It claims this is an Orthodox deacon at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. He certainly looks Byzantine enough to be Greek Orthodox, so he obviously isn't Latin-rite Catholic or Armenian Apostolic (their deacons, I hear, sometimes do wear miters).

I've never seen or heard of this practice before, and wanted to know more. If people have any insights, I'd be very appreciative.

For context, the above image was found on this page.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2012, 01:38:08 AM »
He looks Armenian.  It could be that this picture was taken on St. Stephan's day.  On that day, Armenian deacons will sometimes be given a crown to wear when censing the church.  I think it is to represent the crown of martyrdom of St. Stephan.

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2012, 01:43:18 AM »
He looks Armenian.  It could be that this picture was taken on St. Stephan's day.  On that day, Armenian deacons will sometimes be given a crown to wear when censing the church.  I think it is to represent the crown of martyrdom of St. Stephan.

I didn't pay any attention to his ethnicity, I just thought the miter looked rather Byzantine, whereas Armenian miters, in my understanding, are more pointed like those worn by Roman Catholic bishops or Coptic Orthodox priests.
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline Basil 320

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2012, 01:58:46 AM »
Very strange; have never seen a so called "mitered deacon" in any Eastern Orthodox Church.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2012, 02:09:27 AM »
He looks Armenian.  It could be that this picture was taken on St. Stephan's day.  On that day, Armenian deacons will sometimes be given a crown to wear when censing the church.  I think it is to represent the crown of martyrdom of St. Stephan.

I didn't pay any attention to his ethnicity, I just thought the miter looked rather Byzantine, whereas Armenian miters, in my understanding, are more pointed like those worn by Roman Catholic bishops or Coptic Orthodox priests.

The mitre he is wearing is what our priests wear.  Our bishops wear mitres that resemble those of Catholics.

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2012, 02:21:45 AM »
This is a photo of an Armenian Archdeacon serving in Jerusalem. The liturgical customs of the Jerusalem Patriarchate are unique even in the Armenian World. The Archdeacons there wear the crown rather often, especially when leading processions.
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Offline Aram

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2012, 02:36:25 AM »
Yes, this deacon is Armenian.  He's standing in front of the stairs leading to the Armenian areas in the upper part of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, next to the candlestand in front of the Armenian vestry and storeroom.  I'd venture to guess with some confidence this was taken either before or after the daily Armenian processional service that winds through the Church.  

Armenian deacons in Jerusalem wear crowns rather frequently, not just on the traditional date of St. Stephen's Day.  If memory serves, if a deacon is designated to cense in a given service (the poorvaragir, in Armenian), he wears a crown.  It's one of those little quirks unique to the Jerusalem tradition.  

In the rest of the Armenian world (and Jerusalem as well), as Salpy mentioned, Armenian deacons and subdeacons wear crowns on St. Stephen's Day, to honor his protodiaconate (is that even a word?  If not, I just made it one...).  The priest will go bareheaded, and the deacons wear the crowns.  

Offline stashko

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2012, 03:06:09 AM »
I would Guess....
They wear them , to demean the Greek Orthodox Christians and Patriarch ,Like In Your Face.....This is what we think of Your Miter ....By giving it to there lesser Clergy....I can See why the fighting Happens periodically there between them and the Greeks ... The Greeks want to Knock them Off....... :police:
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 03:06:45 AM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline witega

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2012, 03:09:32 AM »
I would Guess....
They wear them , to demean the Greek Orthodox Christians and Patriarch ,Like In Your Face.....This is what we think of Your Miter ....By giving it to there lesser Clergy....I can See why the fighting Happens periodically there between them and the Greeks ... The Greeks want to Knock them Off....... :police:

That's just silly. Salpy and Aram have both indicated how the tradition is tied to St. Stephen--as protodeacon and protomartyr, putting a crown on a deacon makes perfect sense.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2012, 03:18:23 AM »
I was wondering when Stashko would enter this thread!   :D

Offline stashko

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2012, 03:20:42 AM »
I was wondering when Stashko would enter this thread!   :D

Hello ....Ha Ha Ha
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline stashko

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2012, 04:08:19 AM »
I Vote that The Eastern Orthodox Lesser Clergy in jerusalem ,Priest and Deacons ,Start Wearing the Armenian Papal Miters .... Let's see How Long it will take the Armenians to get Offended By it.......Tit for tat and all that....  ;D

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Irish Melkite

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2012, 04:48:11 AM »
stashko, my brother,

In all the years that I've known you, you've relished being controversial and made little secret of how you like to stir things up - but, on the topic of our Armenian brethren, I have to say that I can only understand your commentary as outright mean-spirited. The style ill befits you, my friend.

It is one thing to disagree on points of theology, it is another to denigrate a Church and its faithful, both clergy and laity, whose martyrs in the span of less than a single decade numbered more than a million - dying for the Christian faith that is our common heritage, regardless of how each expresses it.

Many years,

Neil 
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Offline stashko

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2012, 05:19:31 AM »
stashko, my brother,

In all the years that I've known you, you've relished being controversial and made little secret of how you like to stir things up - but, on the topic of our Armenian brethren, I have to say that I can only understand your commentary as outright mean-spirited. The style ill befits you, my friend.

It is one thing to disagree on points of theology, it is another to denigrate a Church and its faithful, both clergy and laity, whose martyrs in the span of less than a single decade numbered more than a million - dying for the Christian faith that is our common heritage, regardless of how each expresses it.

Many years,

Neil  


I don't Like Them demeaning Our Miters ....That's How I Take It ,And it Offends me...Let Them Go Latin All the Way......Of all The Orthodox Oriental Churches ,The Armenians to me are Not Orthodox ,Or thats How I See Them.... :I don't even Care For Our Western Orthodox Churches too Papal looking ,Hate them ..... :police:
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 05:39:40 AM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Aram

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2012, 09:29:01 AM »
stashko, my brother,

In all the years that I've known you, you've relished being controversial and made little secret of how you like to stir things up - but, on the topic of our Armenian brethren, I have to say that I can only understand your commentary as outright mean-spirited. The style ill befits you, my friend.

It is one thing to disagree on points of theology, it is another to denigrate a Church and its faithful, both clergy and laity, whose martyrs in the span of less than a single decade numbered more than a million - dying for the Christian faith that is our common heritage, regardless of how each expresses it.

Many years,

Neil  


I don't Like Them demeaning Our Miters ....That's How I Take It ,And it Offends me...Let Them Go Latin All the Way......Of all The Orthodox Oriental Churches ,The Armenians to me are Not Orthodox ,Or thats How I See Them.... :I don't even Care For Our Western Orthodox Churches too Papal looking ,Hate them ..... :police:
You done yet?

Offline stashko

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2012, 09:38:02 AM »
For Now....... ;D
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2012, 10:36:33 AM »
stashko, my brother,

In all the years that I've known you, you've relished being controversial and made little secret of how you like to stir things up - but, on the topic of our Armenian brethren, I have to say that I can only understand your commentary as outright mean-spirited. The style ill befits you, my friend.

It is one thing to disagree on points of theology, it is another to denigrate a Church and its faithful, both clergy and laity, whose martyrs in the span of less than a single decade numbered more than a million - dying for the Christian faith that is our common heritage, regardless of how each expresses it.

Many years,

Neil  


Amen.

 
Stashko, you are in the wrong field, you could become a political commentator on American television! You would fit right in.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 10:36:56 AM by podkarpatska »

Offline LBK

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2012, 10:43:29 AM »

Stashko, you are in the wrong field, you could become a political commentator on American television! You would fit right in.


Don't. Give. Him. Ideas!!!  :P :P  ::)
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Offline Thomas

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2012, 10:53:10 AM »
stashko, my brother,

In all the years that I've known you, you've relished being controversial and made little secret of how you like to stir things up - but, on the topic of our Armenian brethren, I have to say that I can only understand your commentary as outright mean-spirited. The style ill befits you, my friend.

It is one thing to disagree on points of theology, it is another to denigrate a Church and its faithful, both clergy and laity, whose martyrs in the span of less than a single decade numbered more than a million - dying for the Christian faith that is our common heritage, regardless of how each expresses it.

Many years,

Neil  


I don't Like Them demeaning Our Miters ....That's How I Take It ,And it Offends me...Let Them Go Latin All the Way......Of all The Orthodox Oriental Churches ,The Armenians to me are Not Orthodox ,Or thats How I See Them.... :I don't even Care For Our Western Orthodox Churches too Papal looking ,Hate them ..... :police:

I am an Antiochian Subdeacon. I find the Armenian Church of the Holy Sepulchre's tradition a lovely way to remember and honor St Stephen our example and model of ministry to all Deacons and Subdeacons.

Thomas
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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2012, 10:54:58 AM »
stashko, my brother,

In all the years that I've known you, you've relished being controversial and made little secret of how you like to stir things up - but, on the topic of our Armenian brethren, I have to say that I can only understand your commentary as outright mean-spirited. The style ill befits you, my friend.

It is one thing to disagree on points of theology, it is another to denigrate a Church and its faithful, both clergy and laity, whose martyrs in the span of less than a single decade numbered more than a million - dying for the Christian faith that is our common heritage, regardless of how each expresses it.

Many years,

Neil  


Amen.

 
Stashko, you are in the wrong field, you could become a political commentator on American television! You would fit right in.


He would make a great heel manager ala Jim Cornette in the professional wrestling business.
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2012, 11:16:01 AM »
I didn't know that Armenian priests wore a more Byzantine-looking miter. See, I've learned multiple things today!

I also very much like the St. Stephen's Day tradition. Quite nice. I love how in Jerusalem, no matter what church (Greek, Armenian, Roman, etc.) has its little quirks.

To those who answered my question, thanks so much! ;D
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2012, 12:23:05 PM »
I would much rather see American clergy from the Orthodox and Armenian communities here in the US go to the Holy Land and visit the Holy Sepulcher and the Church of the Nativity together.  Perhaps we can show them all how to get along.  Personally, I find the near-annual fistfights rather embarrassing. 

I Vote that The Eastern Orthodox Lesser Clergy in jerusalem ,Priest and Deacons ,Start Wearing the Armenian Papal Miters .... Let's see How Long it will take the Armenians to get Offended By it.......Tit for tat and all that....  ;D


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Offline Punch

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2012, 11:40:05 PM »
stashko, my brother,

In all the years that I've known you, you've relished being controversial and made little secret of how you like to stir things up - but, on the topic of our Armenian brethren, I have to say that I can only understand your commentary as outright mean-spirited. The style ill befits you, my friend.

It is one thing to disagree on points of theology, it is another to denigrate a Church and its faithful, both clergy and laity, whose martyrs in the span of less than a single decade numbered more than a million - dying for the Christian faith that is our common heritage, regardless of how each expresses it.

Many years,

Neil  


I don't Like Them demeaning Our Miters ....That's How I Take It ,And it Offends me...Let Them Go Latin All the Way......Of all The Orthodox Oriental Churches ,The Armenians to me are Not Orthodox ,Or thats How I See Them.... :I don't even Care For Our Western Orthodox Churches too Papal looking ,Hate them ..... :police:

I am an Antiochian Subdeacon. I find the Armenian Church of the Holy Sepulchre's tradition a lovely way to remember and honor St Stephen our example and model of ministry to all Deacons and Subdeacons.

Thomas


My guess is that St. Stephan did not wear such headgear.  But I am open to the possibility that I may be wrong.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline William

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2012, 11:47:32 PM »
He looks Armenian.  It could be that this picture was taken on St. Stephan's day.  On that day, Armenian deacons will sometimes be given a crown to wear when censing the church.  I think it is to represent the crown of martyrdom of St. Stephan.

I didn't pay any attention to his ethnicity, I just thought the miter looked rather Byzantine, whereas Armenian miters, in my understanding, are more pointed like those worn by Roman Catholic bishops or Coptic Orthodox priests.

The mitre he is wearing is what our priests wear.  Our bishops wear mitres that resemble those of Catholics.

How come the priests wear the cooler miters?
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Offline Aram

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2012, 11:58:54 PM »
stashko, my brother,

In all the years that I've known you, you've relished being controversial and made little secret of how you like to stir things up - but, on the topic of our Armenian brethren, I have to say that I can only understand your commentary as outright mean-spirited. The style ill befits you, my friend.

It is one thing to disagree on points of theology, it is another to denigrate a Church and its faithful, both clergy and laity, whose martyrs in the span of less than a single decade numbered more than a million - dying for the Christian faith that is our common heritage, regardless of how each expresses it.

Many years,

Neil  


I don't Like Them demeaning Our Miters ....That's How I Take It ,And it Offends me...Let Them Go Latin All the Way......Of all The Orthodox Oriental Churches ,The Armenians to me are Not Orthodox ,Or thats How I See Them.... :I don't even Care For Our Western Orthodox Churches too Papal looking ,Hate them ..... :police:

I am an Antiochian Subdeacon. I find the Armenian Church of the Holy Sepulchre's tradition a lovely way to remember and honor St Stephen our example and model of ministry to all Deacons and Subdeacons.

Thomas


My guess is that St. Stephan did not wear such headgear.  But I am open to the possibility that I may be wrong.
Your point?  The meaning of our tradition on St. Stephen's day has nothing to do with what he may or may not have worn.  It's the symbolism of honoring deacons by commemorating the protodeacon, placing the crown on their heads instead of the celebrant. 

Honestly.  I'm getting a bit tired of seeing thread after thread of questions about the Armenian Church turning into opportunities for open target practice on our traditions.  If you want to ask questions, ask questions.  If you want to ask questions and then criticize how the answer doesn't fit your particular worldview of Orthopraxis, know that it comes off as disrespectful.

Offline Irish Melkite

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2012, 12:38:40 AM »
My guess is that St. Stephan did not wear such headgear.  But I am open to the possibility that I may be wrong.

Of course he did not, he may well have worn no headgear. The point is to honor the tradition which the deacons represent, as they follow in the footsteps of St Stephen, whom both the East and the West venerate as both Protodeacon and Protomartyr. Think of the crown as the symbolic crown of martyrdom.

Many years,

Neil 
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- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory

Offline FrAugustineFetter

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2012, 01:05:12 AM »
The name of St. Stephan, is the Greek word 'stephanos', which means 'crown'.  So, the wearing of a crown, by a deacon, is, in and of itself, no different than a the service books of the Church, prior to the Schism, and after, playing on his name to bring out his work.

Thus, in the early, and late medieval West, before the Schism, and then for many centuries afterwards, on the Feast of St. Stephan after Christmas, if possible, the Deacons were to sing the Prose, during the Procession before Mass, but, after the Responsory and before the Antiphon.  Thus, the Deacons would sing, at a station, sing:

Prose: All the ends of the world praise thee the Protomartyr,
V. Who first running to the glorious CROWN of Martyrdom,
V. Today, filled with sacred, grace,
V. Thou followest the foot-steps of the Lord,
V. The Sight of Whom,
V. Thou didst obtain,
V. in the Father's Glory.
V. That thou mightest be struck while pleading for the pardon of the stone-throwers' crimes.
Plead that we, who truly love thee, may have portion in thy name.

So, the Deacon sung the Prose, because the day was in honor of the Protomarytred Deacon, and asked for a portion in his name.

And even prior to the Introit being sung, two cantors, Deacons if possible, were to announce the Introit, or Officium. Two deacons were to chant:

V. With him there standeth the white robed company, and the entire heavenly chorus awaiteth to blend their voices.
R. We are eager to chant our canticles unto the King of kings, Who doth so triumph in His spiritual warrior today.
V. Praiseworthy is it to sing unto Christ; now with harmonious jubilation say ye:
R. Alleluia, we Levites, now exulting, are jubilant for Stephan whom the Highest Height did select among the seven in number, say ye thus: (then the Introit is sung).

Even the Introit was interwoven with a play on St. Stephan's name; since it had by 9th and 10th centuries, be woven with tropes which say:

"Today the stricken martyr Stephan doth ascend crowned unto Paradise"

And even making mention of the diaconal office further down, which office is often called that of Levites, by saying:

"Come ye, let us companions of the Levites chant in chorus at the Heavenly Birth of the Protomartyr Stephan, exulting over his very existence with the Psalmist:"

Even the Sequence made reference to the similarity between St. Stephan's name and the word 'crown', when it says:

"Great is the Lord in all the Earth,
Great are His works in Heaven all above,
And in the Earth below, everywhere they are,
He is the King of kings, and Lord of all,
Before all worlds Begotten of the Father.
He of His Love and Truth doth Stephan now
Exalt from Earth to Heaven,
And in eternal life ADORN HIS BROW
WITH GLITTERING MARTYR CROWN....."

So important was St. Stephan's day, that the pre-schism Western Church had done something that only few Masses had, that is, it even troped the Offertory and Offertory Verses even! And it even had an extended offertory, longer than any other in the year. The extended Offertory chant goes to say:

"The crown of the Kingdom with the triumph of praise, Behold!"

and

"To the highest of the Levites! Behold! Behold! Behold! Alleluia!"

And even the Blessings with the Holy Mysteries found in the Benedicitionals, which blessings took place before the Agnus Dei, and which were still practiced until the Counter-Reformation period, say,

"V. May God, Who CROWNED the blessed Protomartyr Stephan, by both the Martyr's confession of Faith and his agony, surround your minds in the present age with the CROWN of justice, and lead you in the future to the CROWN of Glory. R. Amen."

Notice how everything about St. Stephen is about being 'crowned' or 'crowns' or 'the brown' or 'surround your minds' (that is, hearkening to the head)?

And, to go to Constantinople and the East, can anyone forget the Tropar that says:

 O First Martyr and Apostle Of Christ,
  Thou hadst fought the good fight.
  And didst expose the perversion of the persecutors,
  For when thou wast killed by stoning at the hands of wicked men,
  Thou didst receive a CROWN from the right hand on high,
  And didst cry out to God saying,
  "O Lord do not charge this sin against them!"

Whether one like the position of the Armenian Church or not, one cannot refuse to acknowledge that the practice of their Jerusalem churches, is not fundamentally different in 'liturgical' intention, than that of the above.

Fr. Augustine

Offline Salpy

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2012, 01:28:09 AM »
He looks Armenian.  It could be that this picture was taken on St. Stephan's day.  On that day, Armenian deacons will sometimes be given a crown to wear when censing the church.  I think it is to represent the crown of martyrdom of St. Stephan.

I didn't pay any attention to his ethnicity, I just thought the miter looked rather Byzantine, whereas Armenian miters, in my understanding, are more pointed like those worn by Roman Catholic bishops or Coptic Orthodox priests.

The mitre he is wearing is what our priests wear.  Our bishops wear mitres that resemble those of Catholics.

How come the priests wear the cooler miters?

According to my priest, the kind of crown you see in the picture above used to be what the bishops wore.  Then during the Crusades, the bishops adopted the Western mitre.  They then passed their old mitres to the priests.

Offline stashko

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2012, 02:22:34 AM »
....Just A thought..... ;D

When The Crusaders Attacked Eastern Orthodox Christians ,and in Places ruled them ...Most of, if not All of Our Bishops Didn't Trade In their Byzatine Crown Mitres ,For The Papal  Ones...they Stood and Fought the Good Fight against Heretics and there ways.... Not Like Some Cowards that Lost there way and Let there older Tradition go By the Wayside ..And To embrace the way Of there Enemies....... :police:

           Give Me Holy Orthodoxy or Give Me Death....There is Nothing Else.........


« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 02:40:25 AM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2012, 02:27:25 AM »
....Just A thought..... ;D

When The Crusaders Attacked Eastern Orthodox Christians ,and in Places ruled them ...Most of, if not All of Our Bishops Didn't Trade In their Byzatine Crown Mitres ,For The Papal  Ones...they Stood and Fought the Good Fight against Heretics and there ways.... Not Like Some Cowards that Lost there way and Let there older Tradition go By the Wayside ..And To embrace the way Of there Enemies....... :police:

           Give Me Holy Orthodoxy or Give Me Death....There is Nothing Else.........



Ohhhhh... kay :-\
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 02:59:07 AM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Aram

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2012, 02:35:39 AM »
Stashko, again, are you done yet?

Offline Salpy

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2012, 02:49:01 AM »
Stashko, again, are you done yet?

Stashko's never done.   :)

It's times like this that I just make myself remember that the Serbs and Armenians have historically had good relations:

Quote
Armenians were recorded in Serbia in 1218 when Saint Sava invited constructors to build a Serbian Orthodox monastery after he had been to Armenia and seen the beautiful Armenian architecture there. The Armenians were to build Vitovnica Monastery, which has preserved a bilingual sacral text in Serbian and Armenian dating to the building[3].

Armenians were a small part of the Ottoman Turkish army when they invaded Serbia prior to the Battle of Kosovo 1389. However upon hearing that they would attack a Christian people, they fled the Ottomans to the other side to fight alongside the Serbs. After the battle, the surviving Armenians settled in the hills of Sokobanja where they built Jermenčić Monastery[3].

...

Remains of an Armenian graveyard lie in Kalemegdan fortress, which was last used in the 17th century after the Ottomans destroyed it. Only a few tombs are left in good condition. In 1810 the Turks destroyed the Celije Monastery, and the Serbs rebuilt it in 1811 with the help of wealthy Armenians. One of the benefactors had his idea of an Armenian style dome included in the work, so the monastery today can be considered an outcome of Byzantine/Serbian-Armenian architecture.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Serbia

Offline stashko

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2012, 02:59:59 AM »
Stashko, again, are you done yet?

Stashko's never done.   :)

It's times like this that I just make myself remember that the Serbs and Armenians have historically had good relations:

Quote
Armenians were recorded in Serbia in 1218 when Saint Sava invited constructors to build a Serbian Orthodox monastery after he had been to Armenia and seen the beautiful Armenian architecture there. The Armenians were to build Vitovnica Monastery, which has preserved a bilingual sacral text in Serbian and Armenian dating to the building[3].

Armenians were a small part of the Ottoman Turkish army when they invaded Serbia prior to the Battle of Kosovo 1389. However upon hearing that they would attack a Christian people, they fled the Ottomans to the other side to fight alongside the Serbs. After the battle, the surviving Armenians settled in the hills of Sokobanja where they built Jermenčić Monastery[3].

...

Remains of an Armenian graveyard lie in Kalemegdan fortress, which was last used in the 17th century after the Ottomans destroyed it. Only a few tombs are left in good condition. In 1810 the Turks destroyed the Celije Monastery, and the Serbs rebuilt it in 1811 with the help of wealthy Armenians. One of the benefactors had his idea of an Armenian style dome included in the work, so the monastery today can be considered an outcome of Byzantine/Serbian-Armenian architecture.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Serbia

Serbija Has Plenty Of Ecumenist , Lay And Religious  ....... Be it Then and even in the present time  .......But We Still Have That Saying ,

Better The Sultan's Turban, Than The Tiera [Mitre ]Of Rome...... :police:
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 03:01:36 AM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2012, 03:01:17 AM »
Stashko, again, are you done yet?
Don't let him get under your skin. ;)
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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2012, 03:09:33 AM »
I'm Finished For Now ....... :police:
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2012, 03:42:51 AM »
He looks Armenian.  It could be that this picture was taken on St. Stephan's day.  On that day, Armenian deacons will sometimes be given a crown to wear when censing the church.  I think it is to represent the crown of martyrdom of St. Stephan.

I didn't pay any attention to his ethnicity, I just thought the miter looked rather Byzantine, whereas Armenian miters, in my understanding, are more pointed like those worn by Roman Catholic bishops or Coptic Orthodox priests.

The mitre he is wearing is what our priests wear.  Our bishops wear mitres that resemble those of Catholics.

How come the priests wear the cooler miters?

According to my priest, the kind of crown you see in the picture above used to be what the bishops wore.  Then during the Crusades, the bishops adopted the Western mitre.  They then passed their old mitres to the priests.

As much as I like Armenian hats, I can't help but think this was a bad stylistic choice.
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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2012, 09:11:27 AM »
He looks Armenian.  It could be that this picture was taken on St. Stephan's day.  On that day, Armenian deacons will sometimes be given a crown to wear when censing the church.  I think it is to represent the crown of martyrdom of St. Stephan.

I didn't pay any attention to his ethnicity, I just thought the miter looked rather Byzantine, whereas Armenian miters, in my understanding, are more pointed like those worn by Roman Catholic bishops or Coptic Orthodox priests.

The mitre he is wearing is what our priests wear.  Our bishops wear mitres that resemble those of Catholics.

How come the priests wear the cooler miters?

According to my priest, the kind of crown you see in the picture above used to be what the bishops wore.  Then during the Crusades, the bishops adopted the Western mitre.  They then passed their old mitres to the priests.

In reading the responses linking the crowns to the Crusades, I find it interesting that in the Constantinople tradition the wearing of a crown by a bishop is a very late development. It was not until well after the Crusades were over and, Constantinople had been invaded by the Turks, that the bishops would wear the type of crown we are talking about here.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 09:12:22 AM by arimethea »
Joseph

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2012, 03:14:44 PM »
I'm Finished For Now ....... :police:

It's one thing to be proud of your heritage and your faith, but it is another thing to belittle others who don't live to your standards or follow your traditions.You seem like a good guy at heart, but as Desi used to say to Lucy, someday, in another forum, you will have some " 'splainin' " to do.  Sorry if I sound like I am hectoring, but I just don't find anything you've posted here to be funny or reflective of, or really supportive, of our Orthodox Faith.

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2012, 03:15:38 PM »
He looks Armenian.  It could be that this picture was taken on St. Stephan's day.  On that day, Armenian deacons will sometimes be given a crown to wear when censing the church.  I think it is to represent the crown of martyrdom of St. Stephan.

I didn't pay any attention to his ethnicity, I just thought the miter looked rather Byzantine, whereas Armenian miters, in my understanding, are more pointed like those worn by Roman Catholic bishops or Coptic Orthodox priests.

The mitre he is wearing is what our priests wear.  Our bishops wear mitres that resemble those of Catholics.

How come the priests wear the cooler miters?

According to my priest, the kind of crown you see in the picture above used to be what the bishops wore.  Then during the Crusades, the bishops adopted the Western mitre.  They then passed their old mitres to the priests.

In reading the responses linking the crowns to the Crusades, I find it interesting that in the Constantinople tradition the wearing of a crown by a bishop is a very late development. It was not until well after the Crusades were over and, Constantinople had been invaded by the Turks, that the bishops would wear the type of crown we are talking about here.


Wasn't it supposed to be symbolic of the role of the Patriarch regarding the Greek population under the Ottomans and sort of a 'protest' symbol?

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2012, 04:41:15 PM »
stashko, my brother,

In all the years that I've known you, you've relished being controversial and made little secret of how you like to stir things up - but, on the topic of our Armenian brethren, I have to say that I can only understand your commentary as outright mean-spirited. The style ill befits you, my friend.

It is one thing to disagree on points of theology, it is another to denigrate a Church and its faithful, both clergy and laity, whose martyrs in the span of less than a single decade numbered more than a million - dying for the Christian faith that is our common heritage, regardless of how each expresses it.

Many years,

Neil  


I don't Like Them demeaning Our Miters ....That's How I Take It ,And it Offends me...Let Them Go Latin All the Way......Of all The Orthodox Oriental Churches ,The Armenians to me are Not Orthodox ,Or thats How I See Them.... :I don't even Care For Our Western Orthodox Churches too Papal looking ,Hate them ..... :police:

I am an Antiochian Subdeacon. I find the Armenian Church of the Holy Sepulchre's tradition a lovely way to remember and honor St Stephen our example and model of ministry to all Deacons and Subdeacons.

Thomas


My guess is that St. Stephan did not wear such headgear.  But I am open to the possibility that I may be wrong.
Your point?  The meaning of our tradition on St. Stephen's day has nothing to do with what he may or may not have worn.  It's the symbolism of honoring deacons by commemorating the protodeacon, placing the crown on their heads instead of the celebrant. 

Honestly.  I'm getting a bit tired of seeing thread after thread of questions about the Armenian Church turning into opportunities for open target practice on our traditions.  If you want to ask questions, ask questions.  If you want to ask questions and then criticize how the answer doesn't fit your particular worldview of Orthopraxis, know that it comes off as disrespectful.

My point had nothing to do with the Armenian Church.  I had to do with how much controversy can be had over what is really a ridiculous looking piece of headgear regardless of who is wearing it.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Punch

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2012, 04:42:32 PM »
The name of St. Stephan, is the Greek word 'stephanos', which means 'crown'.  So, the wearing of a crown, by a deacon, is, in and of itself, no different than a the service books of the Church, prior to the Schism, and after, playing on his name to bring out his work.

Thus, in the early, and late medieval West, before the Schism, and then for many centuries afterwards, on the Feast of St. Stephan after Christmas, if possible, the Deacons were to sing the Prose, during the Procession before Mass, but, after the Responsory and before the Antiphon.  Thus, the Deacons would sing, at a station, sing:

Prose: All the ends of the world praise thee the Protomartyr,
V. Who first running to the glorious CROWN of Martyrdom,
V. Today, filled with sacred, grace,
V. Thou followest the foot-steps of the Lord,
V. The Sight of Whom,
V. Thou didst obtain,
V. in the Father's Glory.
V. That thou mightest be struck while pleading for the pardon of the stone-throwers' crimes.
Plead that we, who truly love thee, may have portion in thy name.

So, the Deacon sung the Prose, because the day was in honor of the Protomarytred Deacon, and asked for a portion in his name.

And even prior to the Introit being sung, two cantors, Deacons if possible, were to announce the Introit, or Officium. Two deacons were to chant:

V. With him there standeth the white robed company, and the entire heavenly chorus awaiteth to blend their voices.
R. We are eager to chant our canticles unto the King of kings, Who doth so triumph in His spiritual warrior today.
V. Praiseworthy is it to sing unto Christ; now with harmonious jubilation say ye:
R. Alleluia, we Levites, now exulting, are jubilant for Stephan whom the Highest Height did select among the seven in number, say ye thus: (then the Introit is sung).

Even the Introit was interwoven with a play on St. Stephan's name; since it had by 9th and 10th centuries, be woven with tropes which say:

"Today the stricken martyr Stephan doth ascend crowned unto Paradise"

And even making mention of the diaconal office further down, which office is often called that of Levites, by saying:

"Come ye, let us companions of the Levites chant in chorus at the Heavenly Birth of the Protomartyr Stephan, exulting over his very existence with the Psalmist:"

Even the Sequence made reference to the similarity between St. Stephan's name and the word 'crown', when it says:

"Great is the Lord in all the Earth,
Great are His works in Heaven all above,
And in the Earth below, everywhere they are,
He is the King of kings, and Lord of all,
Before all worlds Begotten of the Father.
He of His Love and Truth doth Stephan now
Exalt from Earth to Heaven,
And in eternal life ADORN HIS BROW
WITH GLITTERING MARTYR CROWN....."

So important was St. Stephan's day, that the pre-schism Western Church had done something that only few Masses had, that is, it even troped the Offertory and Offertory Verses even! And it even had an extended offertory, longer than any other in the year. The extended Offertory chant goes to say:

"The crown of the Kingdom with the triumph of praise, Behold!"

and

"To the highest of the Levites! Behold! Behold! Behold! Alleluia!"

And even the Blessings with the Holy Mysteries found in the Benedicitionals, which blessings took place before the Agnus Dei, and which were still practiced until the Counter-Reformation period, say,

"V. May God, Who CROWNED the blessed Protomartyr Stephan, by both the Martyr's confession of Faith and his agony, surround your minds in the present age with the CROWN of justice, and lead you in the future to the CROWN of Glory. R. Amen."

Notice how everything about St. Stephen is about being 'crowned' or 'crowns' or 'the brown' or 'surround your minds' (that is, hearkening to the head)?

And, to go to Constantinople and the East, can anyone forget the Tropar that says:

 O First Martyr and Apostle Of Christ,
  Thou hadst fought the good fight.
  And didst expose the perversion of the persecutors,
  For when thou wast killed by stoning at the hands of wicked men,
  Thou didst receive a CROWN from the right hand on high,
  And didst cry out to God saying,
  "O Lord do not charge this sin against them!"

Whether one like the position of the Armenian Church or not, one cannot refuse to acknowledge that the practice of their Jerusalem churches, is not fundamentally different in 'liturgical' intention, than that of the above.

Fr. Augustine

Thank you Father.  This was very interesting and enlightening!
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Punch

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2012, 04:44:44 PM »
I'm Finished For Now ....... :police:

Ha ha brother Stashko.  Don't you mean "I am finished until next time"?
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2012, 05:16:43 PM »
The name of St. Stephan, is the Greek word 'stephanos', which means 'crown'.  So, the wearing of a crown, by a deacon, is, in and of itself, no different than a the service books of the Church, prior to the Schism, and after, playing on his name to bring out his work.......
Fr. Augustine

Thank you Father.  This was very interesting and enlightening!

Thanks also, Fr. My father was named after St. Stephen, having been born near his feastday on the Old Calendar so it was particularly of interest.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 05:17:48 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline FrAugustineFetter

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2012, 06:30:10 PM »
I mean, it kind of makes sense. St. Stephan was crowned with martyrdom; so the Armenians, are like, "Hey, give the deacon the crown on that day!"

I thought the explanation of how Armenian priests got the mitre made sense. I had always wondered about that, and thought the same things.  Though, if the Armenian bishops were wearing the crown mitre, or adopted it right after the Crusades, it would mean that they adopted the crowned mitre before the Bishops under Constantinople did. 

I remember from the Serbian movie "Kosovo Polje" ( I think?), in which the bishop wore only the phelonion with omophor, but, no crown; and that was supposed to be the 1300s.

Again, I'm just making observation. Since they belong to another church, if they wanted to give their deacons the current bishops mitre it'd be their business; I mean, I don't they're going to say, "Hey! The Greeks are upset at giving our deacons crown mitres on St. Stephan's day, let's change so we can make them happy."

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Re: Mitered Deacon?
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2012, 06:36:05 PM »
The Greeks aren't upset, stashko is.