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Offline Tony

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Orthodox Eucharist question
« on: September 23, 2004, 09:30:43 AM »
On another discussion forum I read a post from someone claiming that it was one Orthodox hierarch's practice to add unconsecrated wine from a bottle to the already consecrated chalice right before he would distribute the Eucharist. Has anyone else heard of this practice? Wouldn't this mean that everyone would be getting a mixture of the blood of Christ with common wine? How can this be allowed? Thank you.

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Anthony
« Last Edit: September 23, 2004, 09:47:50 AM by Tony »

Offline Fr. David

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Re:Orthodox Eucharist question
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2004, 10:22:42 AM »
Wow...I hope it's just an Internet rumor...did they specify which hierarch?
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Offline MsGuided

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Re:Orthodox Eucharist question
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2004, 02:19:40 PM »
I thought that once the wine was consecrated, anything else it touches becomes so as well...or was that holy water?...oh nuts, I forget...
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re:Orthodox Eucharist question
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2004, 08:15:56 PM »
That's water...
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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Orthodox Eucharist question
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2004, 08:28:18 PM »
I wouldn't see anything wrong with mixing the blood of Christ with more wine.  At presanctified liturgy, the wine is not consecrated, but by adding the body into it, it becomes the blood. We're not scholastically focused in this regard.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re:Orthodox Eucharist question
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2004, 08:36:32 PM »
At presanctified liturgy, the wine is not consecrated, but by adding the body into it, it becomes the blood.

Interesting topic, perhaps for another thread.  I've heard that there is debate on this, and your position represents just one side.  I'm not sure where I come down on this one.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Orthodox Eucharist question
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2004, 08:45:49 PM »
There's not really any debate on this.  The universal Orthodox Church had one practice until St Peter Moghila in Kiev changed the teaching.  Now the OCA and other Russian Churches are going back to the Greek position (that the wine becomes the blood by mixing with the body) since it is the earlier and unified Orthodox position on the matter.

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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re:Orthodox Eucharist question
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2004, 10:08:31 PM »
Phil,

If it sways you any the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts is descended form the Syrian Church and its most likely a codification of Severus of Antioch.

James of Edessa wrote two canons concerning this:

Canon IV- Priest-hermits have the right to sanctify the chalice for themselves and for the people.  The priest who is celebrating says aloud only the usual prayers, or some of them or he may be inspired by those around him-or he has the right to keep silent.

Canon VIII- If we have the consecrated bread, we have the right to sanctify the chalice.

Syrian Euchologions have a Prayer for the Sanctification of the Chalice:

"The priest takes the Holy Body and three times he makes the Sign of the Cross with it over teh chalice saying: 'That He may unite, sanctify, and transform the wine and water in this chalice into the saving Blood of Christ our God Himself, for the remission of sins.'"

I do not believe the Syrians use the Liturgy of the Presanctified anymore but the Maronites use it on Good Friday and I believe they use this prayer in it, calling it the Prayer of the Signing of the Chalice.

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Offline Tallitot

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Re:Orthodox Eucharist question
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2004, 11:58:16 PM »
If adding the pre-sanctified Lamb to a chalice of wine is all it takes to consecrate the wine, does that mean a lay man or woman can do it?
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Offline sdcheung

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Re:Orthodox Eucharist question
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2004, 12:09:30 AM »
Why take over the prerogative of a Priest?


If adding the pre-sanctified Lamb to a chalice of wine is all it takes to consecrate the wine, does that mean a lay man or woman can do it?


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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Orthodox Eucharist question
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2004, 10:44:23 AM »
If adding the pre-sanctified Lamb to a chalice of wine is all it takes to consecrate the wine, does that mean a lay man or woman can do it?

No
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re:Orthodox Eucharist question
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2004, 11:46:50 AM »
Dn. Lance,

I really like the Presanctified Liturgy.  I wish our Church had it (or reinstated it).  

There's not really any debate on this.  The universal Orthodox Church had one practice until St Peter Moghila in Kiev changed the teaching.  Now the OCA and other Russian Churches are going back to the Greek position (that the wine becomes the blood by mixing with the body) since it is the earlier and unified Orthodox position on the matter.

So what I read recently in the Hapgood book (namely, that infants are not allowed to commune at the Presanctified Liturgy because the wine is not consecrated) reflects the more recent teachings of Moghila?

Crucifer's question has so far been met with "no" and a question about usurping the prerogatives of the priesthood.  I'd like to hear more about this.  If all it takes is adding the consecrated bread and/or consecrated wine to unconsecrated wine to make the latter the Blood of Christ, then why couldn't a layman do this, at least in theory (he'd probably not have access to the Eucharist in this manner in reality)?  Is it not only the mixing of the two, but also some sort of prayer (similar to the one Dn. Lance quoted from Syriac sources) that would only work if offered by a priest?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2004, 11:47:23 AM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re:Orthodox Eucharist question
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2004, 10:50:13 PM »
Phil,

I do not think that it is simply the addition of the Holy Body to the wine which consecrates it but, at the risk of sounding scholastic, the intention and action of the priest.  The Syrians who invented the service used a prayer or at the least required the priest to meditate silently about what he was doing.  The Byzantine Presantified Liturgy also has the remnants of this.  

After the Fraction at a regular Liturgy the deacon tells the priest: "Master fill the Holy Chalice".  At which the priest takes the IC portion of the Holy Lamb, makes the Sign of the Cross over the chalice with it, and places it in the chalice saying "The fullness of the Holy Spirit".  In the Liturgy of the Presanctified the deacon says instead: "Master bless the chalice".  The priest however does the same as at normal Liturgy.

I see this as a minor Epiclesis and clearly the priest's blessing and power is invoked.

In further support of the lay persons inability to accomplish this act, we know that in St. Basil's day the laity took home and preserved the Holy Body for daily Communion.  We aslo know intinction was not yet practiced.  They did not take home the Holy Blood and it is never mentioned that the laity were allowed to place the Holy Body into wine at home but that they broke their fast in the morning with it, eating it alone before anything else.  Once intinction became the norm, reservation of the Holy Gifts for hermits was done by intincting the Holy Body with the Holy Blood.  If a layperson could perform the act there would be no need to intinct the Holy Body with the Holy Blood.  However this intinction was not done for Presanctified because of the wine that woud be consecrated at it.  (The intinction is done now by most if not all Orthodox priests and some Catholic priests.)

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