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Author Topic: New questions, challenges confront Episcopal-turned-Catholic leader  (Read 1105 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 26, 2012, 01:36:16 PM »

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BALTIMORE (CNS) -- Father Jeffrey N. Steenson is finding that there are a lot of new roads to travel and new questions to resolve since his Jan. 1 appointment as head of the Houston-based Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter for former Anglicans who want to become Catholics.
....
He spoke to Catholic News Service during a busy day Jan. 22 at Mount Calvary Church in Baltimore, where he celebrated Mass, received a group of parishioners into the Catholic Church, performed a baptism and led an evensong service.
....
Q: It seems to me that there would be something to learn from the Eastern Catholic jurisdictions in the United States on that. Have you been contacted with them about how they ...

A: I've talked to some of them. I've listened to many of the stories that have been told about their difficulties over the years. But in a way the Catholic Church today is in such a different place than it was in the early part of the 20th century. I've felt only a great sense of welcome from the Catholic bishops. And I hope -- I don't know how to put it, because I don't know enough about the history of Eastern Catholicism to be able to speak very knowledgably about it -- but I don't want to see us living too separated of an existence from the Latin rite. For good theological and historical reasons too because that's where we came from. Whereas the Eastern-rite Catholics, they have a ritual identity that goes way, way, way back. And for Anglicans, I mean we're specifically not a ritual church; we're not recognized as a separate rite but we're part of the regular Roman rite using our Anglican patrimony.
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« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2012, 02:18:14 PM »

Side question here- is Evensong pretty similar to Vespers?
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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2012, 06:46:27 PM »

Quote
BALTIMORE (CNS) -- Father Jeffrey N. Steenson is finding that there are a lot of new roads to travel and new questions to resolve since his Jan. 1 appointment as head of the Houston-based Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter for former Anglicans who want to become Catholics.
....
He spoke to Catholic News Service during a busy day Jan. 22 at Mount Calvary Church in Baltimore, where he celebrated Mass, received a group of parishioners into the Catholic Church, performed a baptism and led an evensong service.
....
Q: It seems to me that there would be something to learn from the Eastern Catholic jurisdictions in the United States on that. Have you been contacted with them about how they ...

A: I've talked to some of them. I've listened to many of the stories that have been told about their difficulties over the years. But in a way the Catholic Church today is in such a different place than it was in the early part of the 20th century. I've felt only a great sense of welcome from the Catholic bishops. And I hope -- I don't know how to put it, because I don't know enough about the history of Eastern Catholicism to be able to speak very knowledgably about it -- but I don't want to see us living too separated of an existence from the Latin rite. For good theological and historical reasons too because that's where we came from. Whereas the Eastern-rite Catholics, they have a ritual identity that goes way, way, way back. And for Anglicans, I mean we're specifically not a ritual church; we're not recognized as a separate rite but we're part of the regular Roman rite using our Anglican patrimony.


Sounds like he drank the kool-aide and will work out just fine with the Latins......He apparently has the same deep knowledge of, and understanding about, Eastern Christianity that most RCC's possess. (sarcasm detected......)
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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2012, 06:47:55 PM »

 Roll Eyes Sigh...
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2012, 07:31:56 PM »

Side question here- is Evensong pretty similar to Vespers?
Yes, in fact in the American Book of Common Prayer it's called Evening Prayer and the service is almost identical to the RC & EO ones
http://www.bookofcommonprayer.net/evening_prayerI.php?do_yearNo=2&do_id=3E&do_dow=4&today=Thursday, January 26, 2012
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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2012, 08:34:28 PM »

Side question here- is Evensong pretty similar to Vespers?
Yes, in fact in the American Book of Common Prayer it's called Evening Prayer and the service is almost identical to the RC & EO ones
http://www.bookofcommonprayer.net/evening_prayerI.php?do_yearNo=2&do_id=3E&do_dow=4&today=Thursday, January 26, 2012

Anglican Evensong includes Phos Hilaron? That surprised me.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 08:34:34 PM by William » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2012, 09:19:30 PM »

Quote
Whereas the Eastern-rite Catholics, they have a ritual identity that goes way, way, way back. And for Anglicans, I mean we're specifically not a ritual church; we're not recognized as a separate rite but we're part of the regular Roman rite using our Anglican patrimony.

To me, this smacks a little of the incorrect (and very offensive) way that some Catholics have of speaking of the EC Churches as "Rites" rather than Churches.

Edit: I posted before reading all the other posts. Now that I've done so, I see that similar sentiments have already been expressed.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 09:22:33 PM by Peter J » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2012, 09:52:26 PM »

Side question here- is Evensong pretty similar to Vespers?
Yes, in fact in the American Book of Common Prayer it's called Evening Prayer and the service is almost identical to the RC & EO ones
http://www.bookofcommonprayer.net/evening_prayerI.php?do_yearNo=2&do_id=3E&do_dow=4&today=Thursday, January 26, 2012

Anglican Evensong includes Phos Hilaron? That surprised me.

Not quite- its from the US 1979 BCP, used by most Episcopalian parishes in the US, a few ACNA parishes, and some of the splinter groups like the Charismatic Episcopal Church. The 1666 BCP (the official prayer book for Church of England Anglicans) does not have this. There are a few other interpolations in the 1979 US BCP that align it more with Orthodox and Catholic practice (the Rite II mea culpa confession, etc), one suspects as a bone to keep the Anglo-Catholics after allowing ordination of women.
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2012, 10:05:29 PM »

As long as I can remeber Evening prayer included the Phos Hilarion, as well as the prayer by John Chrysostom.
Growing up a "Whiskeypalian" we used call Evening Prayer "Cocktail Hour vespers".
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2012, 01:22:35 AM »

As long as I can remeber Evening prayer included the Phos Hilarion, as well as the prayer by John Chrysostom.
Growing up a "Whiskeypalian" we used call Evening Prayer "Cocktail Hour vespers".

Just out of curiosity, which prayer book were you using growing up? I know (having been a BCP nerd in my Episcopalian days) Phos Hilarion was not included in the American 1928, nor is it in the English 1662 BCP.

The prayer by St John Chrysostom, however, goes back to the 1662 BCP.
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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2012, 04:39:03 AM »

Why don't you come out and ask me? I'm 51 laugh
So let me say upfront-no I do not recall the book before the 1928 BCP, thank you!

As a little boy we used the 1928 BCP for English language services. We "bewailed our manifold sins and offenses"(for the thought of them was grevious unto us). For Spanish language services (*) we used an Anglican Prayer Book that was produced for Mexico and So. America IIRC it was in Castillian Spanish.
I think the liturgies that formed the 1979 BCP started to phase in when I was about 14 or so.

The Phos Hilarion probably wasn't in the 1928 BCP, it was a very broad-church protestant work. I've never understood High Church/Anglo Catholic types using it, the 1979 BCP has much more of a Catholic/Orthodox feel to it. IIRC the 1928 didn't even have any special services for Holy Week in it.

(*) I grew up on the Mexican border and was raised in a bi-lingual parish.
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« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2012, 03:21:54 PM »

Why don't you come out and ask me? I'm 51 laugh
So let me say upfront-no I do not recall the book before the 1928 BCP, thank you!

As a little boy we used the 1928 BCP for English language services. We "bewailed our manifold sins and offenses"(for the thought of them was grevious unto us). For Spanish language services (*) we used an Anglican Prayer Book that was produced for Mexico and So. America IIRC it was in Castillian Spanish.
I think the liturgies that formed the 1979 BCP started to phase in when I was about 14 or so.

The Phos Hilarion probably wasn't in the 1928 BCP, it was a very broad-church protestant work. I've never understood High Church/Anglo Catholic types using it, the 1979 BCP has much more of a Catholic/Orthodox feel to it. IIRC the 1928 didn't even have any special services for Holy Week in it.

(*) I grew up on the Mexican border and was raised in a bi-lingual parish.

Oh, I knew your age from your profile  Wink - I was wondering if you were using one of the alternate service books, possibly imported from England, or if there was an American Anglo-Catholic one I hadn't heard about, since you said you had used Phos Hilaron for as long as you could recollect. I might not be Anglican anymore, but I still find various BCP and Service Books fascinating.
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« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2012, 04:48:53 PM »

Not quite- its from the US 1979 BCP, used by most Episcopalian parishes in the US, a few ACNA parishes, and some of the splinter groups like the Charismatic Episcopal Church. The 1666 BCP (the official prayer book for Church of England Anglicans) does not have this. There are a few other interpolations in the 1979 US BCP that align it more with Orthodox and Catholic practice (the Rite II mea culpa confession, etc), one suspects as a bone to keep the Anglo-Catholics after allowing ordination of women.

This is the kinds of stuff that keeps me here....

My personal BCP was printed in 1976 and says "Proposed" on the title page. The American book has to be approved by two successive general conventions; 1979 was the second convention to do so. 1976 happened also to be the convention that approved ordination of women. I don't know at what stage in the game revisions of the office services were addressed, but it's a cinch it was long before 1976; more likely it was in the 1960s or perhaps even earlier. Besides, most A-Cs do not and did not use the BCP at all, praying instead from one of the various Anglican missals or even RC books.

BTW, the phrase "we are truly sorry and we humbly repent" was added pretty late in the game.
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« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2012, 05:03:32 PM »

Quote
BALTIMORE (CNS) -- Father Jeffrey N. Steenson is finding that there are a lot of new roads to travel and new questions to resolve since his Jan. 1 appointment as head of the Houston-based Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter for former Anglicans who want to become Catholics.
....
He spoke to Catholic News Service during a busy day Jan. 22 at Mount Calvary Church in Baltimore, where he celebrated Mass, received a group of parishioners into the Catholic Church, performed a baptism and led an evensong service.
....
Q: It seems to me that there would be something to learn from the Eastern Catholic jurisdictions in the United States on that. Have you been contacted with them about how they ...

A: I've talked to some of them. I've listened to many of the stories that have been told about their difficulties over the years. But in a way the Catholic Church today is in such a different place than it was in the early part of the 20th century. I've felt only a great sense of welcome from the Catholic bishops. And I hope -- I don't know how to put it, because I don't know enough about the history of Eastern Catholicism to be able to speak very knowledgably about it -- but I don't want to see us living too separated of an existence from the Latin rite. For good theological and historical reasons too because that's where we came from. Whereas the Eastern-rite Catholics, they have a ritual identity that goes way, way, way back. And for Anglicans, I mean we're specifically not a ritual church; we're not recognized as a separate rite but we're part of the regular Roman rite using our Anglican patrimony.


Sounds like he drank the kool-aide and will work out just fine with the Latins......He apparently has the same deep knowledge of, and understanding about, Eastern Christianity that most RCC's possess. (sarcasm detected......)
I'd cut Fr. Jeff some slack. I've met him, and he seems like a very intelligent guy. I really think he knows what he is getting himself into. Heck, he converted to Catholicsim through my parish, and the priest at my parish, who is a bi-ritual latin/melkite, and Fr. Jeff are close friends. Fr. Jeff is being modest but he really does have some idea about what ECs have gone through over the past hundred years or so.
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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2012, 05:55:39 PM »

Not quite- its from the US 1979 BCP, used by most Episcopalian parishes in the US, a few ACNA parishes, and some of the splinter groups like the Charismatic Episcopal Church. The 1666 BCP (the official prayer book for Church of England Anglicans) does not have this. There are a few other interpolations in the 1979 US BCP that align it more with Orthodox and Catholic practice (the Rite II mea culpa confession, etc), one suspects as a bone to keep the Anglo-Catholics after allowing ordination of women.

This is the kinds of stuff that keeps me here....

My personal BCP was printed in 1976 and says "Proposed" on the title page. The American book has to be approved by two successive general conventions; 1979 was the second convention to do so. 1976 happened also to be the convention that approved ordination of women. I don't know at what stage in the game revisions of the office services were addressed, but it's a cinch it was long before 1976; more likely it was in the 1960s or perhaps even earlier. Besides, most A-Cs do not and did not use the BCP at all, praying instead from one of the various Anglican missals or even RC books.

BTW, the phrase "we are truly sorry and we humbly repent" was added pretty late in the game.


Ah, yes, the missals- harder to find online than the various editions of the BCP. As might be evident from my posts here, my personal exposure to Anglo-Catholicism during my own time with the Episcopal Church was rather limited- the two Dioceses I attended were Central Florida and Chicago, Central FL being largely Low Church (the parish I attended was pretty Low Church indeed) and Chicago... well Chicago was one of the many nails in the coffin of my Episcopalian experience. It's why I refer to my past as being somewhat Broad-High, my personal views were rather high, parish-wise I took whatever I could get.

Most of my information comes from online discussion with the Anglo-Catholics who were left (and yes, I was aware '76 was the year WO was legitimized, part of the reason I'd heard the '79 finalization was the High Church bone. Funny you didn't pick up on my 1666 BCP when it was '62. Stupid dates. I remember discussing the East-West Schism and mis-stating that it happened in 1066- an important date for English Christianity and language, but most decidedly NOT 1054. I'm also bad with names that start with the same consonant, even if the sound is not the same- over the course of Theophany I accidentally referred to it as the Transfiguration multiple times), and given that I was born after both the 76 and 79 conventions I tend to give older Episcopalians a little more weight than Wikipedia.

Wow, that was long and rambling- finals week has devolved me into a barely coherent mess. Anyway, thanks for the further information into the formation of the '79 prayer book and its relation (or lack thereof) to the WO movement.
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« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2012, 07:04:38 PM »

Quote
BALTIMORE (CNS) -- Father Jeffrey N. Steenson is finding that there are a lot of new roads to travel and new questions to resolve since his Jan. 1 appointment as head of the Houston-based Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter for former Anglicans who want to become Catholics.
....
He spoke to Catholic News Service during a busy day Jan. 22 at Mount Calvary Church in Baltimore, where he celebrated Mass, received a group of parishioners into the Catholic Church, performed a baptism and led an evensong service.
....
Q: It seems to me that there would be something to learn from the Eastern Catholic jurisdictions in the United States on that. Have you been contacted with them about how they ...

A: I've talked to some of them. I've listened to many of the stories that have been told about their difficulties over the years. But in a way the Catholic Church today is in such a different place than it was in the early part of the 20th century. I've felt only a great sense of welcome from the Catholic bishops. And I hope -- I don't know how to put it, because I don't know enough about the history of Eastern Catholicism to be able to speak very knowledgably about it -- but I don't want to see us living too separated of an existence from the Latin rite. For good theological and historical reasons too because that's where we came from. Whereas the Eastern-rite Catholics, they have a ritual identity that goes way, way, way back. And for Anglicans, I mean we're specifically not a ritual church; we're not recognized as a separate rite but we're part of the regular Roman rite using our Anglican patrimony.


Sounds like he drank the kool-aide and will work out just fine with the Latins......He apparently has the same deep knowledge of, and understanding about, Eastern Christianity that most RCC's possess. (sarcasm detected......)
I'd cut Fr. Jeff some slack. I've met him, and he seems like a very intelligent guy. I really think he knows what he is getting himself into. Heck, he converted to Catholicsim through my parish, and the priest at my parish, who is a bi-ritual latin/melkite, and Fr. Jeff are close friends. Fr. Jeff is being modest but he really does have some idea about what ECs have gone through over the past hundred years or so.

OK, I'll cut you some slack and I realize that the interview itself might have been the problem...Some of us whose family history touches those issues are a 'bit' hypersensitive, I suppose....
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« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2012, 08:32:06 PM »

Most of my information comes from online discussion with the Anglo-Catholics who were left (and yes, I was aware '76 was the year WO was legitimized, part of the reason I'd heard the '79 finalization was the High Church bone.

Is this back when the High Church bone was connected to the Low Church bone?
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« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2012, 08:39:19 PM »

Most of my information comes from online discussion with the Anglo-Catholics who were left (and yes, I was aware '76 was the year WO was legitimized, part of the reason I'd heard the '79 finalization was the High Church bone.

Is this back when the High Church bone was connected to the Low Church bone?

No, where did you learn Anglican anatomy? The High Church bone is connected to the Broad Church bone which is connected to the Low Church bone.  laugh
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« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2012, 09:10:49 AM »

Most of my information comes from online discussion with the Anglo-Catholics who were left (and yes, I was aware '76 was the year WO was legitimized, part of the reason I'd heard the '79 finalization was the High Church bone.

Is this back when the High Church bone was connected to the Low Church bone?

No, where did you learn Anglican anatomy? The High Church bone is connected to the Broad Church bone which is connected to the Low Church bone.  laugh

I tried to think of something to say to follow that, but I came up blank. So I'll just laugh. laugh
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