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Author Topic: If an Orthodox Chrisitan married a Buddhist...  (Read 3071 times) Average Rating: 0
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Riddikulus
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« on: January 25, 2012, 11:12:17 PM »

I'm guessing marriage in the Orthodox Church would be out? And what would be the situation for an Orthodox believer in this situation with regard to receiving the Eucharist?
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2012, 11:25:24 PM »

I'm guessing marriage in the Orthodox Church would be out? And what would be the situation for an Orthodox believer in this situation with regard to receiving the Eucharist?

when I got the pamphlet on preparing for marriage, it explicitly said that a marriage between an Orthodox Christian and other Christian is fine within the Orthodox church, but that a marriage with anyone else is forbidden.

As far as Eucharist participation, I don't know for sure, but I've also read that an Orthodox who gets married outside of the church, has excommunicated himself which then implies that the eucharist would not be given.
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2012, 11:33:40 PM »


when I got the pamphlet on preparing for marriage, it explicitly said that a marriage between an Orthodox Christian and other Christian is fine within the Orthodox church, but that a marriage with anyone else is forbidden.

As far as Eucharist participation, I don't know for sure, but I've also read that an Orthodox who gets married outside of the church, has excommunicated himself which then implies that the eucharist would not be given.

My understanding matches yours on all points discussed.
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2012, 11:37:45 PM »

Thanks to both of you. Smiley I had thought that would be the case.
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2012, 05:50:39 PM »

What if the Buddhist is both Christian and Buddhist?
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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2012, 06:18:19 PM »

What if the Buddhist is both Christian and Buddhist?

He/she is a bad Christian and probably laughed at by more logically minded Buddhists.
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2012, 06:35:47 PM »

What if the Buddhist is both Christian and Buddhist?

If that was the case, I wonder how much a Christian the Buddhist would need to be for Church wedding and the Orthodox spouse to continue in communion.

I do tend to have some difficulty with this stand, though I accept it is the way of it. But this hasn't always been the case in the Church. At least, I can think of one instance off the top of my head, the Anglo-Saxon pagan king, Aethelberht married a Christian princess, Bertha, who took her bishop with her to England to continue in her faith. Seems that she and her bishop were able to exert some influence over her husband before St Augustine of Kent arrived on the scene.

I suppose one could say that a political marriage is different than a wilful step away from the Church to marry a non-Christian, but still it seems to me that it tends to limit sacramental influence in the marriage via the Orthodox spouse. And for the hope of bringing potential offspring to Christ.

Which would bring me to my next question. What about any children? Could they be baptised into the faith because of the faith of the Orthodox partner and their family? I know from experience that it is possible to baptise children if their parents aren't members of the Church, but their grandparents are.

Here in the west Orthodoxy has a very small pool of potential partners for our young people and they are more likely to find a spouse outside the church than within. I wonder if this prohibtion might not make that pool even smaller.  

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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2012, 07:05:42 PM »

Here in the west Orthodoxy has a very small pool of potential partners for our young people and they are more likely to find a spouse outside the church than within. I wonder if this prohibtion might not make that pool even smaller.

Yeah, that cross can get kinda heavy sometimes.
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2012, 07:20:48 PM »

Here in the west Orthodoxy has a very small pool of potential partners for our young people and they are more likely to find a spouse outside the church than within. I wonder if this prohibtion might not make that pool even smaller.

Yeah, that cross can get kinda heavy sometimes.

Or forest and trees figure largely in later either/or thinking that didn't exist in the beginning. 

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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2012, 07:21:27 PM »

In pagan societies, Christians must have married outside the Church. Did that always mean cutting ties?
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2012, 07:31:04 PM »

What if the Buddhist is both Christian and Buddhist?

If that was the case, I wonder how much a Christian the Buddhist would need to be for Church wedding and the Orthodox spouse to continue in communion.

I do tend to have some difficulty with this stand, though I accept it is the way of it. But this hasn't always been the case in the Church. At least, I can think of one instance off the top of my head, the Anglo-Saxon pagan king, Aethelberht married a Christian princess, Bertha, who took her bishop with her to England to continue in her faith. Seems that she and her bishop were able to exert some influence over her husband before St Augustine of Kent arrived on the scene.

You'll find similar examples in Byzantine History, The Byzantine lady: ten portraits, 1250-1500 by Donald M. Nicol is a good read if you're interested in the details; it was largely in the form of Byzantine, Serbian, Bulgarian, etc. princesses marrying Moslem rulers, there are far fewer examples of Byzantine men marrying foreign brides.

But the rule for commoners is pretty much how everyone here described it.
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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2012, 07:34:00 PM »

In pagan societies, Christians must have married outside the Church. Did that always mean cutting ties?

Such customs really only make logical sense in a homogenous society.  It is kind of ridiculous that if you just pay the fee sacraments will be dispensed here regardless of how nominal someone's Orthodoxy is.  
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2012, 07:35:05 PM »

What if the Buddhist is both Christian and Buddhist?

If that was the case, I wonder how much a Christian the Buddhist would need to be for Church wedding and the Orthodox spouse to continue in communion.

I do tend to have some difficulty with this stand, though I accept it is the way of it. But this hasn't always been the case in the Church. At least, I can think of one instance off the top of my head, the Anglo-Saxon pagan king, Aethelberht married a Christian princess, Bertha, who took her bishop with her to England to continue in her faith. Seems that she and her bishop were able to exert some influence over her husband before St Augustine of Kent arrived on the scene.

You'll find similar examples in Byzantine History, The Byzantine lady: ten portraits, 1250-1500 by Donald M. Nicol is a good read if you're interested in the details; it was largely in the form of Byzantine, Serbian, Bulgarian, etc. princesses marrying Moslem rulers, there are far fewer examples of Byzantine men marrying foreign brides.

But the rule for commoners is pretty much how everyone here described it.

Thanks GiC.
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2012, 07:51:22 PM »

Riddikulus, I don't know whether this is on your behalf or someone else's - but either way, I hope that who ever this is for will ask as many people as possible what a marriage to someone who does not share the same God . . .or agnostic or atheist is like and really listen.

Also, just something to think about - something that I often think about in my own life - I compromised my own heart in becoming unequally yoked.  It was a betrayal to the Cross - the Holy Bridegroom who died for me. 

I was married before I became Orthodox - but if I could do it over again, I'm not sure I would make the same choices.
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2012, 08:03:16 PM »

Here in the west Orthodoxy has a very small pool of potential partners for our young people and they are more likely to find a spouse outside the church than within. I wonder if this prohibtion might not make that pool even smaller. 



Most potential spouses for converts in the West would be at least nominally Christian anyway, so I'm not sure if it's that big of a deal.
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2012, 08:13:26 PM »

Here in the west Orthodoxy has a very small pool of potential partners for our young people and they are more likely to find a spouse outside the church than within. I wonder if this prohibtion might not make that pool even smaller.  


Most potential spouses for converts in the West would be at least nominally Christian anyway, so I'm sure if it's that big of a deal.

Not necessarily. Nominally Christian might cover a multitude of wacky beliefs. That wouldn't make the cut, would it? Might be better to start from the ground up and build on the willingness of a spouse to bring up children Orthodox than one that might have a detrimental affect to their faith in the long run.

If I think of it, I might prefer a Buddhist son or daughter in law than some legalistic fundamentalist!  Huh  laugh
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2012, 08:26:16 PM »

Riddikulus, I don't know whether this is on your behalf or someone else's - but either way, I hope that who ever this is for will ask as many people as possible what a marriage to someone who does not share the same God . . .or agnostic or atheist is like and really listen.

Also, just something to think about - something that I often think about in my own life - I compromised my own heart in becoming unequally yoked.  It was a betrayal to the Cross - the Holy Bridegroom who died for me. 

I was married before I became Orthodox - but if I could do it over again, I'm not sure I would make the same choices.

quietmorning,

No, this question is not for me.

And I do know where you are coming from. I've seen how marrying outside one's own faith doesn't work for some people, especially if one goes into marriage with "I have to change this". (I'm not suggesting for one moment that you have done this!  Smiley It's just something I've witnessed.) But I've also seen how people, faithful in small ways, can be party to bringing an unbelieving spouse to Christ though it might have taken many, many years.
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2012, 09:31:54 PM »

Riddikulus, I don't know whether this is on your behalf or someone else's - but either way, I hope that who ever this is for will ask as many people as possible what a marriage to someone who does not share the same God . . .or agnostic or atheist is like and really listen.

Also, just something to think about - something that I often think about in my own life - I compromised my own heart in becoming unequally yoked.  It was a betrayal to the Cross - the Holy Bridegroom who died for me. 

I was married before I became Orthodox - but if I could do it over again, I'm not sure I would make the same choices.

quietmorning,

No, this question is not for me.

And I do know where you are coming from. I've seen how marrying outside one's own faith doesn't work for some people, especially if one goes into marriage with "I have to change this". (I'm not suggesting for one moment that you have done this!  Smiley It's just something I've witnessed.) But I've also seen how people, faithful in small ways, can be party to bringing an unbelieving spouse to Christ though it might have taken many, many years.


Yes, that's my hope too, but honestly - there is no guarantee.  I just keep praying. Smiley 

There is spiritual war that starts, though, from the moment the vows are said. . .and it can be quite harmful to one's spirit.  In the thought of the spouse dealing with "I have to change this or that" - in our case, there has always been mutual respect EXCEPT when I've been praying . . . then wow. . . something in him just really can't tolerate that very well.  I could pray only when he's at work, and it wouldn't make any difference as it is a spiritual reaction not a reaction within the realm of the material.  This can make it very hard.  I sometimes go to my priest and talk to him about it. . .just to try to deal with it.  Thank goodness for my priest, he is so good at helping to keep me focused on the race and remind me that this is a war, not a board game.

I cannot and may never be able to make my home a Christian home - a home that reflects Christ. . .and that makes me sad. 

But the biggest part are the spiritual battles.  They are way harsh, and while they serve to strengthen, they also really wear.  People never see what goes on behind closed doors . . .so the public never really sees the depth of an unequally yoked marriage. . .as St. Paul writes - what does light have with darkness?  I hope that my husband will some day find Christ. . .and the true church.  I just keep praying. . . I'd be happy if he even found Him on his death bed. . .but as I said, there are no guarantees. 

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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2012, 10:12:17 PM »

Riddikulus, I don't know whether this is on your behalf or someone else's - but either way, I hope that who ever this is for will ask as many people as possible what a marriage to someone who does not share the same God . . .or agnostic or atheist is like and really listen.

Also, just something to think about - something that I often think about in my own life - I compromised my own heart in becoming unequally yoked.  It was a betrayal to the Cross - the Holy Bridegroom who died for me. 

I was married before I became Orthodox - but if I could do it over again, I'm not sure I would make the same choices.

quietmorning,

No, this question is not for me.

And I do know where you are coming from. I've seen how marrying outside one's own faith doesn't work for some people, especially if one goes into marriage with "I have to change this". (I'm not suggesting for one moment that you have done this!  Smiley It's just something I've witnessed.) But I've also seen how people, faithful in small ways, can be party to bringing an unbelieving spouse to Christ though it might have taken many, many years.


Yes, that's my hope too, but honestly - there is no guarantee.  I just keep praying. Smiley 

There is spiritual war that starts, though, from the moment the vows are said. . .and it can be quite harmful to one's spirit.  In the thought of the spouse dealing with "I have to change this or that" - in our case, there has always been mutual respect EXCEPT when I've been praying . . . then wow. . . something in him just really can't tolerate that very well.  I could pray only when he's at work, and it wouldn't make any difference as it is a spiritual reaction not a reaction within the realm of the material.  This can make it very hard.  I sometimes go to my priest and talk to him about it. . .just to try to deal with it.  Thank goodness for my priest, he is so good at helping to keep me focused on the race and remind me that this is a war, not a board game.

I cannot and may never be able to make my home a Christian home - a home that reflects Christ. . .and that makes me sad. 

To be honest with you, even with the spouses both being Christian, it is hard. The enemy always finds something to stir the pot!  Angry Nothing is perfect. We are all sinners living with other sinners. Sometimes, the love that got us up the aisle seems like a distant thing; only hanging in there seems to suffice. My Anglican wedding vows have got me through many a rough spot. For better, for worse; for richer, for poorer; in sickness, and in health. Take those things seriously and one is in for the long haul, no matter what pot holes one hits along the road.

Quote
But the biggest part are the spiritual battles.  They are way harsh, and while they serve to strengthen, they also really wear.  People never see what goes on behind closed doors . . .so the public never really sees the depth of an unequally yoked marriage. . .as St. Paul writes - what does light have with darkness?  I hope that my husband will some day find Christ. . .and the true church.  I just keep praying. . . I'd be happy if he even found Him on his death bed. . .but as I said, there are no guarantees. 


I'll pray for your husband, too, quietmorning. God's mercy on him.
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2012, 10:46:50 PM »

What if the Buddhist is both Christian and Buddhist?

He/she is a bad Christian and probably laughed at by more logically minded Buddhists.
Is a bad Christian still a Christian?

In my experience, logically minded Buddhists tend to lack a sense of humor. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2012, 11:15:15 PM »

What if the Buddhist is both Christian and Buddhist?

He/she is a bad Christian and probably laughed at by more logically minded Buddhists.
Is a bad Christian still a Christian?

In my experience, logically minded Buddhists tend to lack a sense of humor. Roll Eyes

 laugh

Seriously though, I wonder how your earlier point would be considered.
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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2012, 11:18:33 PM »

What if the Buddhist is both Christian and Buddhist?

Is that possible?
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« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2012, 12:48:59 AM »

What if the Buddhist is both Christian and Buddhist?

Is that possible?
Another way to phrase the question: what if someone considers him/herself to be both Buddhist and Christian (in whatever way they think they are able to reconcile the two systems)?
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« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2012, 12:54:31 AM »

Such a person has some sorting out to do if he has any hope of marrying in an Orthodox church!
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« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2012, 08:56:59 AM »

What if the Buddhist is both Christian and Buddhist?

Is that possible?

I would not be the priest marrying such a couple, that's all I'm sayin'....
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« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2012, 09:12:54 AM »

What if the Buddhist is both Christian and Buddhist?

Is that possible?
Another way to phrase the question: what if someone considers him/herself to be both Buddhist and Christian (in whatever way they think they are able to reconcile the two systems)?

The only ways I could see that working are a) the Christian god is reduced to one of the devas (as happens to Daoist gods, for instance, when Chinese Buddhists include them) or to some big cosmic abstraction like the tathagatagharba; b) Buddhism is reduced to some moralistic tenets and the Buddha is just a wise teacher. In a) he is not really a Christian, in b) he is not really a Buddhist. But perhaps there are some other logical contortions that I have not considered.
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« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2012, 09:29:34 AM »

Riddikulus, I don't know whether this is on your behalf or someone else's - but either way, I hope that who ever this is for will ask as many people as possible what a marriage to someone who does not share the same God . . .or agnostic or atheist is like and really listen.

Also, just something to think about - something that I often think about in my own life - I compromised my own heart in becoming unequally yoked.  It was a betrayal to the Cross - the Holy Bridegroom who died for me. 

I was married before I became Orthodox - but if I could do it over again, I'm not sure I would make the same choices.

quietmorning,

No, this question is not for me.

And I do know where you are coming from. I've seen how marrying outside one's own faith doesn't work for some people, especially if one goes into marriage with "I have to change this". (I'm not suggesting for one moment that you have done this!  Smiley It's just something I've witnessed.) But I've also seen how people, faithful in small ways, can be party to bringing an unbelieving spouse to Christ though it might have taken many, many years.


Yes, that's my hope too, but honestly - there is no guarantee.  I just keep praying. Smiley 

There is spiritual war that starts, though, from the moment the vows are said. . .and it can be quite harmful to one's spirit.  In the thought of the spouse dealing with "I have to change this or that" - in our case, there has always been mutual respect EXCEPT when I've been praying . . . then wow. . . something in him just really can't tolerate that very well.  I could pray only when he's at work, and it wouldn't make any difference as it is a spiritual reaction not a reaction within the realm of the material.  This can make it very hard.  I sometimes go to my priest and talk to him about it. . .just to try to deal with it.  Thank goodness for my priest, he is so good at helping to keep me focused on the race and remind me that this is a war, not a board game.

I cannot and may never be able to make my home a Christian home - a home that reflects Christ. . .and that makes me sad. 

To be honest with you, even with the spouses both being Christian, it is hard. The enemy always finds something to stir the pot!  Angry Nothing is perfect. We are all sinners living with other sinners. Sometimes, the love that got us up the aisle seems like a distant thing; only hanging in there seems to suffice. My Anglican wedding vows have got me through many a rough spot. For better, for worse; for richer, for poorer; in sickness, and in health. Take those things seriously and one is in for the long haul, no matter what pot holes one hits along the road.

Quote
But the biggest part are the spiritual battles.  They are way harsh, and while they serve to strengthen, they also really wear.  People never see what goes on behind closed doors . . .so the public never really sees the depth of an unequally yoked marriage. . .as St. Paul writes - what does light have with darkness?  I hope that my husband will some day find Christ. . .and the true church.  I just keep praying. . . I'd be happy if he even found Him on his death bed. . .but as I said, there are no guarantees. 


I'll pray for your husband, too, quietmorning. God's mercy on him.

Thank you for your words - they put a new perspective on this. . .regardless of whether my husband has Christ Jesus or not, I'm still waging a war with an enemy who does not want me to pray.  Smiley  That encourages me. 

Thank you for your prayers! 
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« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2012, 10:26:48 AM »

What if the Buddhist is both Christian and Buddhist?

Is that possible?
Another way to phrase the question: what if someone considers him/herself to be both Buddhist and Christian (in whatever way they think they are able to reconcile the two systems)?

The only ways I could see that working are a) the Christian god is reduced to one of the devas (as happens to Daoist gods, for instance, when Chinese Buddhists include them) or to some big cosmic abstraction like the tathagatagharba; b) Buddhism is reduced to some moralistic tenets and the Buddha is just a wise teacher. In a) he is not really a Christian, in b) he is not really a Buddhist. But perhaps there are some other logical contortions that I have not considered.
Regarding the first part of (a), I know that some Buddhists claim that the Deities described in Jewish, Christian, and Muslim texts is a Great Brahma, a very powerful Deity, more powerful than less powerful devas, but still within samsara. But such Buddhists were simply trying to denigrate the Semitic traditions in general; I haven't heard any self-confessed Christian/Buddhist-Buddhist/Christian make that claim.

Regarding the second part of (a), the Tathagatagarbha argument, that is I think a different story, because the Tathagatagarbha doctrine states the reality of a changeless, unconditioned, non-conceptualizable fullness/emptiness within, and therefore "beyond", all beings. Understood in such a way, Tathagatagarbha doctrine is very similar to the apophatic traditions of Pseudo-Dionysius, of the Jewish Kabbalists, or of the Islamic Sufis.

If Buddhism isn't mistakenly equated to be a type of pantheism ("Nature is all that exists, and is to be worshipped"), then the Buddhist teachings on That which Transcends Nature (with the "That" being both Personal and Impersonal), can be appreciated as being providing a point of commonality with the Christian tradition, or any other tradition that likewise argues for a cosmically transcending (and immanent) Being.
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« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2012, 11:39:45 AM »

Regarding the second part of (a), the Tathagatagarbha argument, that is I think a different story, because the Tathagatagarbha doctrine states the reality of a changeless, unconditioned, non-conceptualizable fullness/emptiness within, and therefore "beyond", all beings. Understood in such a way, Tathagatagarbha doctrine is very similar to the apophatic traditions of Pseudo-Dionysius, of the Jewish Kabbalists, or of the Islamic Sufis.

If Buddhism isn't mistakenly equated to be a type of pantheism ("Nature is all that exists, and is to be worshipped"), then the Buddhist teachings on That which Transcends Nature (with the "That" being both Personal and Impersonal), can be appreciated as being providing a point of commonality with the Christian tradition, or any other tradition that likewise argues for a cosmically transcending (and immanent) Being.

That's good. Really good.
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« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2012, 12:01:47 PM »

Don't get me wrong- I see many common points between Buddhism and Christianity, and many reasons to admire the Buddha. However, it's going too far to say one can simultaneously be a Christian and a Buddhist. For example, Buddhist reflections on anatta (non-self) and anicca (impermanence) can be a useful supplement to Christian meditation on death and the vanity of earthly life and passions; there is however a fundamental disagreement when these concepts are applied to the spiritual realm as well, leading to the denial of immortality or the eternal God Himself. The Madhyamaka school identifies sunyata (emptiness) as the fundamental reality of all things- everything is dependently originated, nothing exists in itself. And the entire Buddhist system of types of karma and rebirth is pretty much impossible for a Christian to accept, aside from some basic moral points.

One can certainly be a Christian and gather useful things from Buddhism, just as we can do this with Daoism, Platonism, etc.
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« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2012, 04:48:04 PM »

Don't get me wrong- I see many common points between Buddhism and Christianity, and many reasons to admire the Buddha. However, it's going too far to say one can simultaneously be a Christian and a Buddhist. For example, Buddhist reflections on anatta (non-self) and anicca (impermanence) can be a useful supplement to Christian meditation on death and the vanity of earthly life and passions; there is however a fundamental disagreement when these concepts are applied to the spiritual realm as well, leading to the denial of immortality or the eternal God Himself. The Madhyamaka school identifies sunyata (emptiness) as the fundamental reality of all things- everything is dependently originated, nothing exists in itself. And the entire Buddhist system of types of karma and rebirth is pretty much impossible for a Christian to accept, aside from some basic moral points.

One can certainly be a Christian and gather useful things from Buddhism, just as we can do this with Daoism, Platonism, etc.
So if you were a priest, and a female parish member wanted to marry a guy who claimed to be both Christian and Buddhist, would you would first determine whether the guy was truly Christian? And if so, how would you determine that?
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« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2012, 05:22:52 PM »

What if the Buddhist is both Christian and Buddhist?

Is that possible?

I would not be the priest marrying such a couple, that's all I'm sayin'....

So the options are:

1 - marry the couple and allow the Christian to continue life as a practicing Christian.  There is certainly a decent chance the Buddhist will come around eventually. 

2 - refuse to marry the couple.  There is a decent chance the lady will just say * it and never step foot in a Christian church again.   If the Buddhist decides to "convert" just for the marriage rather than personal reasons, there is a very low chance he'll actually live any sort of Christian life. 

Which is preferable? 
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« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2012, 05:24:25 PM »

Im no priest, but I would not marry the couple, but tell the Christian that he can commune, and show the wife love.

PP
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« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2012, 06:46:19 PM »

What if the Buddhist is both Christian and Buddhist?

Is that possible?

I would not be the priest marrying such a couple, that's all I'm sayin'....

So the options are:

1 - marry the couple and allow the Christian to continue life as a practicing Christian.  There is certainly a decent chance the Buddhist will come around eventually. 

2 - refuse to marry the couple.  There is a decent chance the lady will just say * it and never step foot in a Christian church again.   If the Buddhist decides to "convert" just for the marriage rather than personal reasons, there is a very low chance he'll actually live any sort of Christian life. 

Which is preferable? 

Even if a marriage in the Church is impossible, cutting the Christian off - even if we say it's their own fault for not finding an Orthodox mate - from the Church hardly seems logical, when usually because the spouse is lost to the Church, any children are lost, too.  And so the pool of Orthodox Christian partners for our young people continues to diminish, especially in areas where potential Orthodox partners are like hens' teeth; making this a kind of Catch 22 situation.

At the very least, it seems a self-destructive action on the part of the Church; more a punishment for loving the wrong person rather than encouragement for the non-Christian to enter through our doors.

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« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2012, 07:14:15 PM »

I am a bit weary of how often, as of late, I have been reading Orthodox Christians saying that we need to do or permit a bad situation (as a rule), because the alternative might be worse.  Take just this example, for instance.  If the Church permits every marriage that a member of the Church wants, on the grounds that otherwise they'll just go and sin with that person anyways, what message does that send?  I think it sends a message that, firstly, marrying an Orthodox Christian isn't really that much better than marrying anyone else.  I don't think that is accurate.  I think that a marriage is meant to further your salvation; that is far more likely to happen with a fellow Orthodox Christian than with others, if for no other reason than the both of you may partake of the Body and Blood of the Lord.  Secondly, I think it sends a message that you should be expected to go and have sex with someone even if the Church says no.  The Church shouldn't routinely engage in economia just because someone will then disobey the Church if they do not.  If the Church gives in every time someone will disobey her if she doesn't, then everyone will disobey her when they don't get their way, because they will see it as a means by which to get what they want.  That brings me to my last point.  How much can someone really care about the Church, really desire to be in it, if they will continue to have sex with someone because the Church won't let them marry that person?  The Church doesn't sanctify masturbation just because a person hasn't found the person they want to marry, so why then should it have a rule of sanctifying marriages the Church doesn't really like the idea of, just because otherwise those involved will give in to sexual desires?

I guess I'm just a bit wearied by the idea that seems to have been growing for some time that the Church ought to start making use of economia the standard.  The canons ought to be the standard.  The Church's teaching ought to be the standard.  Exceptions should be just that: a different application of the rule because of an exceptional circumstance, not because of a quite common circumstance.
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« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2012, 07:16:39 PM »

I am a bit weary of how often, as of late, I have been reading Orthodox Christians saying that we need to do or permit a bad situation (as a rule), because the alternative might be worse....

Im no priest, but I would not marry the couple, but tell the Christian that he can commune, and show the wife love.

Oh the joys of the internet, where the non-Orthodox have all the dogmatic answers about how we Orthodox ought to live!
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« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2012, 07:20:19 PM »

I think a lot of us need to pay attention to what quitemorning generously shared with us.

I have some questions, Why does a Christian marry? for that matter Why does a Christian become a monastic?

I am not asking about children, or sex as these can be found in a none christian marriage, so What makes the marriage of a christian different ? Is love a choice?

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« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2012, 07:22:46 PM »

I am a bit weary of how often, as of late, I have been reading Orthodox Christians saying that we need to do or permit a bad situation (as a rule), because the alternative might be worse....

Im no priest, but I would not marry the couple, but tell the Christian that he can commune, and show the wife love.

Oh the joys of the internet, where the non-Orthodox have all the dogmatic answers about how we Orthodox ought to live!

Firstly, I am not really making a dogmatic answer.  I am merely saying I find it saddening how so many people seem to think that the exceptions bishops are permitted to make for the canons ought to be the rule. 

Also, no, I'm not Orthodox yet.  However, I am a catechumen.  I am in the process of becoming Orthodox.  I'd also appreciate it if you'd attack my position instead of saying "Ah, he isn't Orthodox, so I'll just dismiss him."
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« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2012, 07:23:43 PM »

I am a bit weary of how often, as of late, I have been reading Orthodox Christians saying that we need to do or permit a bad situation (as a rule), because the alternative might be worse....

Im no priest, but I would not marry the couple, but tell the Christian that he can commune, and show the wife love.

Oh the joys of the internet, where the non-Orthodox have all the dogmatic answers about how we Orthodox ought to live!


Oh the joys of the internet, where even the Orthodox are apparently free to be rude when someone disagrees with them!
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« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2012, 07:46:37 PM »

I am a bit weary of how often, as of late, I have been reading Orthodox Christians saying that we need to do or permit a bad situation (as a rule), because the alternative might be worse....

Im no priest, but I would not marry the couple, but tell the Christian that he can commune, and show the wife love.

Oh the joys of the internet, where the non-Orthodox have all the dogmatic answers about how we Orthodox ought to live!
I was just offering an opinion, jeez.....

PP
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« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2012, 07:57:30 PM »

I am a bit weary of how often, as of late, I have been reading Orthodox Christians saying that we need to do or permit a bad situation (as a rule), because the alternative might be worse....

Im no priest, but I would not marry the couple, but tell the Christian that he can commune, and show the wife love.

Oh the joys of the internet, where the non-Orthodox have all the dogmatic answers about how we Orthodox ought to live!


Oh the joys of the internet, where even the Orthodox are apparently free to be rude when someone disagrees with them!

No, if you aren't a member of the church then you can't speak as a member of the church or speak on behalf of the church.  A senior priest once told me this before I joined from Greek Catholicism.  I can't speak on behalf of a lutheran issue as if I were a lutheran.. I'm not lutheran and I am not a part of their family.  Sheesh.
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« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2012, 07:59:31 PM »

I am a bit weary of how often, as of late, I have been reading Orthodox Christians saying that we need to do or permit a bad situation (as a rule), because the alternative might be worse....

Im no priest, but I would not marry the couple, but tell the Christian that he can commune, and show the wife love.

Oh the joys of the internet, where the non-Orthodox have all the dogmatic answers about how we Orthodox ought to live!


Oh the joys of the internet, where even the Orthodox are apparently free to be rude when someone disagrees with them!

No, if you aren't a member of the church then you can't speak as a member of the church or speak on behalf of the church.  A senior priest once told me this before I joined from Greek Catholicism.  I can't speak on behalf of a lutheran issue as if I were a lutheran.. I'm not lutheran and I am not a part of their family.  Sheesh.
I didnt speak on behalf of anyone. Usually when someone says, "I'm not X but if, Y" that means it is a hypothetical situation.

I'll say what I please.

PP
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« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2012, 08:12:42 PM »

I am a bit weary of how often, as of late, I have been reading Orthodox Christians saying that we need to do or permit a bad situation (as a rule), because the alternative might be worse....

Im no priest, but I would not marry the couple, but tell the Christian that he can commune, and show the wife love.

Oh the joys of the internet, where the non-Orthodox have all the dogmatic answers about how we Orthodox ought to live!


Oh the joys of the internet, where even the Orthodox are apparently free to be rude when someone disagrees with them!

No, if you aren't a member of the church then you can't speak as a member of the church or speak on behalf of the church.  A senior priest once told me this before I joined from Greek Catholicism.  I can't speak on behalf of a lutheran issue as if I were a lutheran.. I'm not lutheran and I am not a part of their family.  Sheesh.
I didnt speak on behalf of anyone. Usually when someone says, "I'm not X but if, Y" that means it is a hypothetical situation.

I'll say what I please.

PP

Sure, say what you please, but be careful we do have moderators lol. 
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« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2012, 08:15:05 PM »

I am a bit weary of how often, as of late, I have been reading Orthodox Christians saying that we need to do or permit a bad situation (as a rule), because the alternative might be worse....

Im no priest, but I would not marry the couple, but tell the Christian that he can commune, and show the wife love.

Oh the joys of the internet, where the non-Orthodox have all the dogmatic answers about how we Orthodox ought to live!


Oh the joys of the internet, where even the Orthodox are apparently free to be rude when someone disagrees with them!

No, if you aren't a member of the church then you can't speak as a member of the church or speak on behalf of the church.  A senior priest once told me this before I joined from Greek Catholicism.  I can't speak on behalf of a lutheran issue as if I were a lutheran.. I'm not lutheran and I am not a part of their family.  Sheesh.
I didnt speak on behalf of anyone. Usually when someone says, "I'm not X but if, Y" that means it is a hypothetical situation.

I'll say what I please.

PP

Sure, say what you please, but be careful we do have moderators lol. 
I've never been warned, muted, etc.  Heck, I've never even had the snazzy green lettering under a post of mine...I dont wanna try and start now Smiley

PP
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« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2012, 09:44:15 PM »

I am a bit weary of how often, as of late, I have been reading Orthodox Christians saying that we need to do or permit a bad situation (as a rule), because the alternative might be worse....

Im no priest, but I would not marry the couple, but tell the Christian that he can commune, and show the wife love.

Oh the joys of the internet, where the non-Orthodox have all the dogmatic answers about how we Orthodox ought to live!

Don't forget about the Orthodox priest who agreed with them.
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