Topic: Liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian

[Orthodox11]

I just thought some people might be interested to know that the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian was celebrated at the Greek Orthodox Cathedral of All Saints (Camden Town, London) earlier tonight. H.G. Archbishop Gregorios was in attendance and gave the sermon.

It was a very beautiful service. Although certain parts were Byzantinised, I was surprised at how closely it matched the Coptic usage. I had a Coptic Liturgy book with me and was able to follow along quite well, even though there were differences here and there.

I know St. James' liturgy is celebrated quite widely, and St. Mark's is used in Jordanville if I'm not mistaken, but this is the first time I've heard of the Liturgy of St. Gregory being used in an Eastern Orthodox church. I hope it becomes an annual thing!

[mike]

By the EO or OO?

[Justin Kissel]

Huh, interesting

[Orthodox11]

By the EO or OO?

Greek Orthodox Chathedral of All Saints (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Archbishop Gregorios of Thyateira and Great Britain (Ecumenical Patriarchate)

[Justin Kissel]

Any idea how a liturgy attributed/named for St. Gregory came to be used by Oriental Orthodox, but not Eastern Orthodox all that much?

[Orthodox11]

Any idea how a liturgy attributed/named for St. Gregory came to be used by Oriental Orthodox, but not Eastern Orthodox all that much?

It's an Alexandrian Liturgy. The Alexandrian rite fell out of use among Eastern Orthodox about a thousand years ago, when the rite of Constantinople became universal. I don't know much about the history of this particular liturgy and its usage though. I'll be happy for someone who knows to enlighten me.

[Deacon Lance]

I take it was the Anaphora of St Gregory the Theologian inserted into the Greek Liturgy of St. Mark rather than the Coptic Liturgy?

[Deacon Lance]

Of note, this is one of the few Anaphoras addressed to Christ directly rather than the Father.

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/liturgy/stgregory.pdf

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Interestingly enough, while the Coptic Church has a Liturgy to Saint Gregory the Theologian, the Ethiopian Church has our own Saint Gregory liturgy, however it is to Saint Gregory of Nyssa, brother of Saint Basil.  I wonder the disconnect between Alexandria and Ethiopia, generally speaking we share their literature and prayers, and anything we have that they don't is either an indigenous Ethiopian original or a copy of a foreign text which the Ethiopians themselves translated but which were lost outside of Ethiopia (such as with the Book of Enoch and Jubilees which are still faithfully in the Ethiopian Biblical Canon).  We also have a Liturgy of Saint Gregory the Wonderworker.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[mike]

By the EO or OO?

Greek Orthodox Chathedral of All Saints (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Archbishop Gregorios of Thyateira and Great Britain (Ecumenical Patriarchate)

I meant whether it had been celebrated by the EO clergy or they just had lent Copts their Church?

[Alpo]

An Alexandrian liturgy celebrated by Greeks in Norway. Now that's random.

Hopefully we'll see a day when it's celebrated by EO Church of Alexandria.

[Orthodox11]

I meant whether it had been celebrated by the EO clergy or they just had lent Copts their Church?

All the celebrating clergy were from the Thyateira Archdiocese.

An Alexandrian liturgy celebrated by Greeks in Norway. Now that's random.

An Alexandrian Greek Liturgy celebrated by Cypriots in England.

[Orthodox11]

Someone uploaded a few pictures of the Liturgy on their blog.

[Agabus]

Although the answer seems to be an obvious, "Not very," how often does this sort of thing happen?

[Orthodox11]

Although the answer seems to be an obvious, "Not very," how often does this sort of thing happen?

Until last night, the answer was 'never', at least in this country.

[Αριστοκλής]

Wish I had been there, I do.

[John Larocque]

It's an Alexandrian Liturgy. The Alexandrian rite fell out of use among Eastern Orthodox about a thousand years ago, when the rite of Constantinople became universal. I don't know much about the history of this particular liturgy and its usage though. I'll be happy for someone who knows to enlighten me.

You can blame, indirectly, the Vatican, and the creation of Latin Patriarchs of Jerusalem and Antioch during the crusades. The Orthodox patriarchs were driven into exile (under the protection of Byzantium), and when they returned, they brought with them liturgy of Constantinople, which displaced what they were using before.

[biro]

Was there an audio file of this liturgy? I always like a good recording.   

[Orthodox11]

Was there an audio file of this liturgy? I always like a good recording.   

Not that I know of, but I'll let you know if I come across anything. I'll post the text that was used when I get hold of it.

[biro]

Thank you! 

[ialmisry]

An Alexandrian liturgy celebrated by Greeks in Norway. Now that's random.

Hopefully we'll see a day when it's celebrated by EO Church of Alexandria.

Grant it, O Lord!

[ialmisry]

It's an Alexandrian Liturgy. The Alexandrian rite fell out of use among Eastern Orthodox about a thousand years ago, when the rite of Constantinople became universal. I don't know much about the history of this particular liturgy and its usage though. I'll be happy for someone who knows to enlighten me.

You can blame, indirectly, the Vatican, and the creation of Latin Patriarchs of Jerusalem and Antioch during the crusades. The Orthodox patriarchs were driven into exile (under the protection of Byzantium), and when they returned, they brought with them liturgy of Constantinople, which displaced what they were using before.

No, we can't blame the Vatican for this one.  Thank "Patriarch" Balsamon of Antioch, a Constantinopolitan who never set foot in his patriarchate.

[Agabus]

Although the answer seems to be an obvious, "Not very," how often does this sort of thing happen?

Until last night, the answer was 'never', at least in this country.

Oh.

So, other than getting a bishop's permission, what does one do to resurrect a long-disused rite, especially one still used by those with whom one is out of communion? I ask because I am not averse to the idea, and somewhat support its application within WRO.

And, for that matter, do OOs ever use St. Basil's liturgy?

[Orthodox11]

So, other than getting a bishop's permission, what does one do to resurrect a long-disused rite, especially one still used by those with whom one is out of communion? I ask because I am not averse to the idea, and somewhat support its application within WRO.

You're not resurrecting a rite. The Liturgy used was one that is no longer used by the EO, and it followed a different order (as is also the case for St. James' Liturgy), but the rite was Byzantine. Byzantine chant, Byzantine vestments, Byzantine lectionary, small and great entrance, cherubic hymn, etc. The resurrection of an entirely different rite, as happens in the WRO, is quite a different matter.

And, for that matter, do OOs ever use St. Basil's liturgy?

They have a St. Basil's Liturgy, but it differs from the one we use.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Although the answer seems to be an obvious, "Not very," how often does this sort of thing happen?

Until last night, the answer was 'never', at least in this country.

Oh.

So, other than getting a bishop's permission, what does one do to resurrect a long-disused rite, especially one still used by those with whom one is out of communion? I ask because I am not averse to the idea, and somewhat support its application within WRO.

And, for that matter, do OOs ever use St. Basil's liturgy?

Yes we do,

Ethiopian Orthodox Liturgy of Saint Basil

They are not identical, but clearly similar and inspired from a common source.

stay blessed,
habte selasise

[Orthodox11]

Another entry form a different blog:

Because it is no longer held in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the participating clergy and chanters got together to examine the existing books and texts, all of which had adulterations and were lacking in rubrics. We prepared a text which would be useable and practicable on the basis of an edition from Thessaloniki (2010) – which fortunately also included byzantine music scores for the hymns - and also consulted a version by the late and great liturgiologist, Fountoulis, to mention but two sources we referred to.

[Orthodox11]

The Liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian will be celebrated again on Wednesday the 23rd of January, 7pm, this time at the newly consecrated Greek Orthodox Church of SS Panteleimon and Paraskevi in Harrow, London.

Please inform anyone you think might be able to attend.


Tip: For those of you who'd like to follow along in English, bring a Coptic liturgy book with you and you'll be able to follow the bulk of the service as the differences are fairly minor.

[Alpo]

Perhaps you should give a small hint to the Pope of Alexandria that even today it's really possible to celebrate Alexandrian services instead of Constantinopolitan ones.


Have you/they invited any Copts? It would be interesting to hear their opinions on how different feels to their services.

[Orthodox11]

Have you/they invited any Copts? It would be interesting to hear their opinions on how different feels to their services.

I don't think anyone has been formally invited, but any Copt reading this is of course most welcome. It will be held in Greek, so not sure how much the average Copt would recognise were they to attend. It is an Alexandrian liturgy, but the rite is still Byzantine - Byzantine chanting, Byzantine vestments, etc. - which has a very different 'feel' from the Coptic rite, even if the text used is more or less the same.

[Alpo]

Byzantine chanting, Byzantine vestments, etc.

Why couldn't they just ask the nearest Coptic parish whether they could borrow some vestments and cantor? Or were Coptic traditions developed later than that liturgy?

[Cyrillic]

Byzantine chanting, Byzantine vestments, etc.

Why couldn't they just ask the nearest Coptic parish whether they could borrow some vestments and cantor? Or were Coptic traditions developed later than that liturgy?

Because if it ain't Byzantine it ain't good.

[Orthodox11]

Why couldn't they just ask the nearest Coptic parish whether they could borrow some vestments and cantor?

Because it's a Byzantine rite Greek Orthodox parish belonging to the Patriarchate of Constantinople, not a Coptic rite parish under the Patriarchate of Alexandria. When we celebrate the Liturgy of St. James we follow the Byzantine rite too, we don't try to reconstruct the rites of 4th century Palestine. Likewise, we celebrate the liturgies of Ss. Basil and John Chrysostom according to modern Byzantine usage, which is quite different from what you would have experienced in Constantinople in their time.

And in any case you can't borrow a cantor from a church which is not in communion with the people he is supposed to be leading in prayer.

Or were Coptic traditions developed later than that liturgy?

This too. There's no reason for an EO church to adopt post-schism OO traditions.

[Shlomlokh]

Why couldn't they just ask the nearest Coptic parish whether they could borrow some vestments and cantor?

Because it's a Byzantine rite Greek Orthodox parish belonging to the Patriarchate of Constantinople, not a Coptic rite parish under the Patriarchate of Alexandria. When we celebrate the Liturgy of St. James we follow the Byzantine rite too, we don't try to reconstruct the rites of 4th century Palestine. Likewise, we celebrate the liturgies of Ss. Basil and John Chrysostom according to modern Byzantine usage, which is quite different from what you would have experienced in Constantinople in their time.

And in any case you can't borrow a cantor from a church which is not in communion with the people he is supposed to be leading in prayer.

Or were Coptic traditions developed later than that liturgy?

This too. There's no reason for an EO church to adopt post-schism OO traditions.

Thank you for sharing this with us. I recall reading the thread a year ago, but forgot about it until now. Could you post the text they used in London? If it's the same as the Coptic, I'd appreciate that, too. Sadly, the pictures that were posted a year ago are no longer available. :/

In Christ,
Andrew

[Orthodox11]

Thank you for sharing this with us. I recall reading the thread a year ago, but forgot about it until now. Could you post the text they used in London? If it's the same as the Coptic, I'd appreciate that, too. Sadly, the pictures that were posted a year ago are no longer available. :/

In Christ,
Andrew

I don't have the text they're using. Not sure if it's available anywhere online. I can see if I can get hold of a word document or something from somewhere. I'll ask for the Byzantine notation for the hymns too.

[Shanghaiski]

I have CDs of the Coptic liturgies of St. Basil and St. Greory the Theologian.

First off, the Coptic liturgy of St. Basil is totally diffrent from the Byantine/Constantinopolitan liturgy of St. Basil.

Second, the Coptic liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian, on my CD anyway, is the same text as the Coptic liturgy of St. Basil, but just according to different melodies.

[Cavaradossi]

I have CDs of the Coptic liturgies of St. Basil and St. Greory the Theologian.

First off, the Coptic liturgy of St. Basil is totally diffrent from the Byantine/Constantinopolitan liturgy of St. Basil.

Second, the Coptic liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian, on my CD anyway, is the same text as the Coptic liturgy of St. Basil, but just according to different melodies.

Even the anaphora is the same?

[Shanghaiski]

I have CDs of the Coptic liturgies of St. Basil and St. Greory the Theologian.

First off, the Coptic liturgy of St. Basil is totally diffrent from the Byantine/Constantinopolitan liturgy of St. Basil.

Second, the Coptic liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian, on my CD anyway, is the same text as the Coptic liturgy of St. Basil, but just according to different melodies.

Even the anaphora is the same?

Not exactly sure. I believe it was.

[Shlomlokh]

Found the original post with pictures. Apparently they are celebrating it again this year.

http://londinoupolis.blogspot.com/2012/01/st-gregory-liturgy-in-london.html?m=0

In Christ,
Andrew

[Orthodox11]

Second, the Coptic liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian, on my CD anyway, is the same text as the Coptic liturgy of St. Basil, but just according to different melodies.

That shouldn't be the case, the text is very different. The prayers of the Liturgy of St. Gregory are directed at the Son, while those of St. Basil are to the Father.

[Alpo]

Why couldn't they just ask the nearest Coptic parish whether they could borrow some vestments and cantor?

Because it's a Byzantine rite Greek Orthodox parish belonging to the Patriarchate of Constantinople, not a Coptic rite parish under the Patriarchate of Alexandria. When we celebrate the Liturgy of St. James we follow the Byzantine rite too, we don't try to reconstruct the rites of 4th century Palestine. Likewise, we celebrate the liturgies of Ss. Basil and John Chrysostom according to modern Byzantine usage, which is quite different from what you would have experienced in Constantinople in their time.

IMO not really comparable since liturgies of Sts. Basil and John developed organically to the present form we now have. If we had continued using liturgy of St. Gregory and it had developed the same way I wouldn't mind hellenization.

And in any case you can't borrow a cantor from a church which is not in communion with the people he is supposed to be leading in prayer.

I actually agree with this. It's just that I'm not always sure when my own theological ideas stop and when Orthodoxy starts.

[Orthodox11]

IMO not really comparable since liturgies of Sts. Basil and John developed organically to the present form we now have. If we had continued using liturgy of St. Gregory and it had developed the same way I wouldn't mind hellenization.

You mean Byzantinisation rather than Hellenisation. The pre-schism Alexandrian rite was no less Greek than the Byzantine one.

My point was that one must separate between rite and liturgy. The use of a particular liturgy does not necessitate the use of a particular rite. Among the EO, the Liturgy of St. James has only been in continuous use in Greece and the Holy Land. A church following the Russian variation of the Byzantine rite won't switch to Byzantine chant when celebrating that liturgy on that account.

[Orthodox11]

I found this text online, but haven't looked at it to see how closely it matches the one used in London.
http://www.orthodoxfathers.com/logos/Theia-Leitourgia-tou-en-agiois-Patros-imon-Grigoriou?page=5&%24Version=1&%24Path=%2F

[Fr.Aidan]

This Liturgy (of St. Gregory the Theologian) was celebrated, I have heard, by Archimandrite John (Lewis) of Holy Theotokos Monastery in Ft. Myers, Florida, in the past. He reposed in 2007 and it hasn't been celebrated since, there, to my knowledge. The monastery property is now back under the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, its original jurisdiction at its founding. But as a women's monastery dedicated to St. Nicholas.