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Author Topic: Orthodoxy vs. Racism  (Read 8230 times) Average Rating: 0
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Antonious Nikolas
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« on: September 21, 2004, 01:41:09 PM »

This was originally posted on beliefnet.com. Does anyone know about
this? Are there really ordained Eastern Orthodox priests teaching
this kind of garbage? The links lead to some pretty disturbing
material. This so-called "father" James Thornton reminds me of that
guy they rode out of town on a rail in "O Brother Where Art Thou".


Hi Everyone

As some of you may know I have been investigating the Orthodox Church
for some time now and I like to learn as much as possible. Recently,
I have come across something that I found to be quite disturbing. I
was reading through the discussions over on www.euphrosynoscafe.com
and found a discussion on the growing Muslim presence in America.
This discussion seemed to bring out the worst in some people one of
whom identified himself as being of "Anglo/Irish" stock and
interested in preserving that character in America, apparently to the
exclusion of others. I said to myself, "OK, here is one crazy
reactionary nut that happens to be baptized Orthodox, no big deal".
Then one of the other posters asked him what his spiritual father had
to say about his position. His reply was this -

'I don't actually have a spiritual father, per se, unless you mean my
parish priest. However, I do know of Orthodox priests like Fr. James
Thornton who would probably support my anti-immigrant position. He
has written articles warning about the consequences of non-Christian,
non-white immigration to America. For example:'

Towards Renewal and Renaissance
The American racial dilemma is only part of the larger spiritual
sickness of the West.
by FR. James Thornton
http://www.amren.com/968issue/968issue.html

Your Southern Heritage,
by FR. James Thornton
http://www.reformed-theology.org/southern/heritage.htm

I followed the links and found something that I would expect to find
in the circles of the 'Church of the White Redeemer' or some other
racist organization, but not Orthodoxy. Is this guy really ordained
as an Orthodox priest? Under which bishop? How do the Orthodox feel
about this stuff? I could never be in communion with such people. I
am very concerned.


Needless to say, I share the concerns of the original poster. What
is the situation here?

In XC,

Nick
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2004, 02:00:10 PM »

There are different people of different beliefs in every Church; I don't think it's fair to judge an entire group based on what a few laymen or priests or even bishops believe. I think that Fr. James Thorton is with Met. Cyprian's Greek Old Calendarist group, though I'm not positive.
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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2004, 02:11:44 PM »

What does the Scripture say?
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2004, 02:14:32 PM »

There are different people of different beliefs in every Church; I don't think it's fair to judge an entire group based on what a few laymen or priests or even bishops believe. I think that Fr. James Thorton is with Met. Cyprian's Greek Old Calendarist group, though I'm not positive.

Thanks for the information.  I'm not judging any group by the words of a few laymen, or even this James Thorton individual.  I do know that talking about preserving European bloodlines and an "Anglo/Irish" national character against "miscegenation" and immigration is anti-Orthodox and anti-Christian.  Such ideas are right out of the KKK handbook.  Any priest teaching such things should be ashamed.  Just for the record, the article statesthat Thornton was speaking at the American Renaissance Conference.  A little note on what that is, which makes you wonder what an "Orthodox" priest of any stripe was doing there:

America's Biennial Gathering of Academic Racists: The 2002 American Renaissance Conference

"Renaissance" is a favorite American name for banks, venture capital firms, and innovative educational organizations. It is also the name of the most vicious collection of academic racists who assemble every two years to discuss among themselves how blacks and other racial minorities are destroying Western civilization. Here is an account of their most recent meeting, which was held this past February in Herndon, Virginia.

by Mike Hill

The antiseptic setting of the Hyatt Dulles hotel must have reassured the suits and ties that, whatever else might be said, they were gathered in a courteous way on behalf of "white genetic solidarity." That archaic phrase summed up the American Renaissance convocation of bigots held in Herndon, Virginia, during an oddly mild winter weekend, late in February. As the largest assembly since founder, newsletter editor, and organizer Jared Taylor, a Yale graduate, first summoned the congregation in 1994, the 2002 event proclaimed a newly invigorated goal: the racial awakening of an Anglocentric nation in crisis.

In line with the previous four conferences, the American Renaissance Web site pitched the affair as "an opportunity to hear some of the most courageous academics, journalists, and scientists of our time discuss the forces that will determine our future." The question of that future, torn open by the events of last September, is what speakers sought to whip into racially recognizable shape this year. In the supercharged political atmosphere after September 11, the general claim was that foreign violence from within, and now from without, the nation's borders, is finally setting back on course the long march of white supremacy. The overt aggression in New York and Washington, D.C., was clear enough. But now, by extension, white Americans must confront immigration, black-on-white crime, and the unholiest form of bioterrorism yet known in the fatherland — "rampant miscegenation." "Genetic kinfolk" must answer the call for "racial solidarity" and work to hold the eroding line of "biological supremacy."

Those were just a few of the terms Jared Taylor used in his afternoon session midway through day one. "Keep the bastards out," he pleaded, being careful not to shout. "Nonwhites hate us. We are a different degree of civilization, [and our] hated group has lost its solidarity. [This] must inevitably lead to violence." As in other sessions in the Hyatt's Grand Ballroom, the 250-plus audience members, a record high from previous years, offered their applause. That they did so, reservedly, so as not to disturb the chess tournament going on across the hall, was only further proof to themselves of a generally superior pedigree.

Taylor's presentation identified the wounded condition of whiteness, and the future for white men that he wanted to win, with equal measures of urgency. In this he provided a model for those who preceded and followed him. During two days of high-minded bigotry, 11 other speakers would recreate the same biological loyalty pitch. The task now, in response to would-be annihilation, was to hasten the inevitable mainstreaming of racial self-interest, as well as to celebrate the premonitions of white nationalism already in our midst.

There was no FBI surveillance here that could be spotted, and unlike in years past when the conference was held in a less remote three-star hotel, no protesters were outside. This was Homeland Security, a click or two further right — not just the repeal of democratic jurisprudence, the surrender of habeas corpus, the forced segregation of communities and schools, but mass deportation, forcible repatriation, and racially based fertility control. This was the rebirth of a nation from within its most superficially respectable and buttoned-down core. With the merely conservative sounding conference subtitle, "In Defense of Western Man," the eugenically based cri de coeur of past American Renaissance conferences attempted this time to reach out, like a properly civic-minded shake of the hand, to the panicky white guy next door.

Friday night, barside, in the chummy confines of a spontaneous pre-conference cocktail party, the headliners and paying customers met in small groups. Blue blazers and gray tweeds rubbed elbows with the less well put together, but far more appreciative members of the rank and file. Glass in hand, the academic and lawyer, the banker and realtor, the political adviser and the elected school board member, the journalist, the college kid, and the odd juvenile skinhead, casually hummed their same just cause: "In Defense of Western Man." Yes, they were men. They were very self-consciously Western. And with a certain hazy combination of agony and satisfaction, they were assembled for the defense of a national ideal about to go maliciously awry.

So, too, began the formal proceedings in the groggy sunshine of Saturday morning. Former Patrick Buchanan adviser and demoted Washington Times columnist Samuel Francis got things rolling in his talk, "Immigration and National Security." Francis, an American Renaissance speaker since the first meeting in 1994, began a message he would develop during a roundtable session the next day. Everything about the growing U.S. nationalist movement is in order, according to Francis, except the formation of widespread white racial commitment. That too will come. Witness equally September 11 and would-be President Pat Buchanan's rueful choice in running mate, Ezola Foster, "a black woman high school teacher." For Francis, these were twin symptoms, foreign and domestic, of a single, all-but-fatal flaw. The U.S. had failed to base its national interests on fundamentally white racial grounds.

Next, Glen Spencer, a retired computer consultant from the San Fernando Valley, served up the kind of anti-Mexican vitriol that has become standard fare in his home state of California. The rhetoric of race warfare as national defense turned here to Mexico's apocalyptic "reconquista" of the once pale Golden State. Spencer's argument in "The Second Mexican-American War" expectedly mourned the storied demise of whiteness. Rewarming past arguments from his nationwide radio broadcast, "American Patrol," Spencer hinted more bombastically towards an eventual invasion of Mexico. In the wake of that victory, the establishment of a U.S. protectorate would stave off Mexico's stealth annexation of land made forcefully "ours" in the glory days of the late 1840s.

As a point of pride at American Renaissance conferences, the vast majority of speakers boast postgraduate degrees. Many hold master's or doctorates from leading research institutions. Yale University, Cambridge University, the University of North Carolina, California State University at Northridge, and the University of London were just some of the alma maters claimed at the 2002 conference.

Along this line the next two speakers, Michael Levin and Philippe Rushton, co-belligerents of the eugenics revival, were touted as tenured university professors. Levin teaches philosophy at the City University of New York, while Rushton enlightens young Canadians in psychology at the University of Western Ontario. A fixture at all four past American Renaissance meetings, Levin achieved some fame in the mid-1990s for his genetically based study of the intelligence differences between the Caucasoid, Negroid, and Asiatic races, a la Charles Murray and Richard Herrnstein in their bestseller, The Bell Curve. On this day, Levin's intellectual talents were solicited for defending whites against reparations for slavery. Against the victims' sweepstakes of black poverty and liberal white guilt, Levin promised to break ranks with the gentility of previous speakers. He wanted to ask rude questions, as if no one thought he ever would. Levin cited the need to shock mainstream white Americans (and presumably, his students at CUNY) into a properly scientific understanding of the "intrinsic defects of the mutagenically disabled Negroid" species. "Biology is the better explanation that must be deployed," Levin opined, in order to fathom the "shallowness of their [poor black American] pockets. The truth is the truth, and that's the thing about the truth," he later mused.

In the talk that followed, Rushton merely confirmed Levin's vapid and spurious "science." An overhead projector was used to erect a wall of graduated bar graphs, standard deviations, flow charts, and other illustrations of the new-old polemic for fascism in the cloak of empirical knowledge. The genetic argument remained the same. And a few attendees appeared to doze at the unarguable news.

Levin's and Rushton's presentations fit together fist-in-glove, which should be of no real surprise. The research of both professors has been bankrolled in the past by the Pioneer Fund, a New York City-based foundation headed by Harvard Law school graduate and tax attorney, Harry F. Weyher. Through his white-collar contacts in New York and elsewhere, Weyher has funneled more than $3.5 million into research supporting eugenics. The Pioneer Fund has warm relations with other aspects of the American Renaissance organization. Through New Century Foundation, the Pioneer Fund provides financial responsibility for the American Renaissance newsletter. And it has extended a lucrative subvention on behalf of Frank Borzellieri's two racist books. Borzellieri, a regular speaker at American Renaissance, was featured on the second day of presentations. He is also an elected New York City school board member and a popular columnist for the Queens Ledger.

The biological loyalty speech made by American Renaissance impresario Jared Taylor followed the two academics. A self-described "uptown bad guy," Yale graduate, former international banker, and one-time director of the aforementioned New Century Foundation, Taylor here assumed the coordinating role veterans in the audience had come to expect. In his presentation, "Ethnic Conflict: Race, Sex, and Violence," Taylor maintained the defense of white genetic preservation. If the delivery was Tom Brokaw, the substance was David Duke. More than once Taylor coaxed an eager audience to their sensibly wing-tipped feet. He beckoned wistfully for impenetrable borders, as Francis mentioned before. He patiently tallied the demographic assaults on the order of Spencer's California bad dream. And the nasty numbers compiled by Levin and Rushton seemed only to drive the conference subtitle, "In Defense of Western Man," that much more comfortably home.

Things got spicier as Taylor's presentation developed. "In the homespun wisdom of my grandmother," he began by recollecting, "race was our most extended family." Nothing much new in this reverie, so far. But in what followed, Taylor's call for biological loyalty was juiced up by descriptions of graphically sexualized racial transgressions. Against his better judgment, he claimed he had to include this material, for it provided mighty inspiration for fixing the anti-white outrages documented at the conference so far. No, not miscegenation this time. Something (almost) unmentionably other than that, something Taylor "had to talk about no matter how horrible." The emblem and the outcome of post-white America, as he would now reveal, was "black-on-white male rape."

His apologies before confiding this suitably torrid hypothesis seemed to produce an odd anticipation, a sort of one-eyed fascination, for most of the men in the room. Having accomplished this high-dramatic tension, Taylor then made what to some may have sounded like a rather twisted call. He appealed to his audience to identify with, to in some sense embody, the long-lost figure of white male solidarity which he evidently found in the allegory of rape. This solidarity was best achieved, the frail logic seemed to run, as a direct consequence of the black-white homosexual violation that he begged his audience to envision. "Group solidarity in prison," Taylor rallied, "means that rape of one is rape of all." "Whites [have] become blacks' personal property [in prison]." And there, like here, "nonwhites hate us." So "keep the bastards out." "Commit to each other," or risk a form of "long-term suicide" that puts our manhood and our whiteness inextricably at stake.

During Taylor's Q&A a beleaguered-looking, late-middle-aged white man approached the microphone. Next to Taylor's athletic six-foot frame, he looked risibly diminutive. The man was sweating, and had an air of fealty that seemed to bring him to the brink of tears. "I commit to you, Jared Taylor," he muttered. "If somebody attacks you, or anybody in this room, I will come to your aid." The Christians came to Taylor's aid with the same brand of heartfelt testimonial. The one skinhead kid from the neo-Nazi group National Alliance was not to be outdone. (This group was given prominence, recall, by its founder, William Pierce, who penned Timothy McVeigh's terrorist bible, The Turner Diaries.)

On that second night, as Taylor's session ended, an uncanny sense of masculine intimacy pervaded the Grand Ballroom. The conference was, after all, an almost entirely male event, with perhaps not even half a dozen women among the nearly 300 attendees. In the afterglow of Taylor's heterosexist panic, the multicultural Christian men's group, Promise Keepers, came to mind. Only here, the attention to color was inverted. It was homosocial aggression towards, rather than attraction to, blackness that insured the necessarily masculine nature of whiteness. And this, just in time for dinner and drinks.

Later, following the banquet and heavily patronized cash bar, matters turned from personal commitment to explicitly political concerns. Jared Taylor resumed the dais, as was his way by now, and introduced "a man whose talk would go down best after a few beers." The reveler in question was Nick Griffin, a well-known activist in the 1970s British National Front. Tonight Griffin was in attendance to address the recent electoral successes of the new British National Party, which he currently chairs. Barely concealed twitters and mild guffaws from a well-lubricated and convivial audience congratulated Griffin on being found guilty for "inciting racial hatred" of late. With irresistible Cambridge University prose and in the king's best English, the usual missives, "not [of our] conservative, but [of our] revolutionary movement," were proclaimed without delay. "We white racialists must put away our boots, and put on our suits," he commanded, affirming the dress code already enforced. "There is nothing left to preserve except the color of our children's skin," he added. "And I want white genocide trials for the likes of Blair and Clinton, [and would see them] hanging from the nearest lamppost." And so on, and so forth, to the roar of applause mixed with backslapping, foot stomping, and laughter.

The chess tournament from the earlier part of the day was clearly long past. So for the rest of Griffin's speech, the guys proceeded to unwind. But another beer, another Chardonnay, and two standing ovations later, it became clear the common center of the two forms of white racialism, British and American, would not hold. Somewhere in the midst of the good cheer, for an awkward moment, the British Nationalist Party's nationalism and whatever it was that American Renaissance imagined to the right of Pat Buchanan and David Duke were, in fact, not at all the same species of hate. Griffin's distinctly U.S. audience, in spite of the strong desire to make merry, appeared to choke on the bitter, European-inspired pill that he called, without flinching, "class struggle." (He even ended with a quotation from Marx.)

To the deaf ears of his (mostly) white-collar audience, Griffin insisted that contemporary politics across all its spectrums had "betrayed the working class." By the end of his oratory, Griffin assured an audience grown restless that "third-worlders intended to destroy us [that is, white people]." Whites must unite, fight. It was a message by now repeated with metronomic regularity. But in his defense of Western civilization, white workers had rights that were not only racial, but were economically based. Griffin wanted to peddle a version of racism located squarely in opposition to globalization, and he meant to comment at length on "the reduction in the wages of the ordinary worker." It was clear during his Q&A period that, in the minds of a relatively well-off U.S. audience like this one, anticapitalist ressentiment would be presumed to fix itself in an all-white America to come. In the end, Griffin chose not to press the economic point, and the emphasis on racism soon enough won back its former prominence of place. With a half-day of presentations yet to be made, Griffin appeared willing to leave the rich Yankees with the pure racial hatred they could more palatably stomach.

Sunday morning Jared Taylor made an announcement. It seemed to bring order to whatever ideological messiness might have lingered from the previous night's post-banquet discussion with Griffin. Due to the "anti-free speech laws in France," Guillaume Faye, who was to speak on "The Rise of Islam," would not be presenting. With prison charges pending, his visa was denied. To those in the know, this could only mean that the man had earned his stripes. As one of the principal organizers of GRECE (Groupment de Recherche et d'etudes sur la Civilisation Europeenne), and a leader in the French New Right, Faye would have brought the group back to the September attacks, to the fact that "civilization is in crisis." The "egalitarian hallucination" of multiracial democracy would have to be shattered that Sunday without him.

Three sessions remained. First, a roundtable discussion of Buchanan's new book, which goes by the American Renaissance-sounding title, The Death of the West. Included here were previous conference presenters, Samuel Francis and Jared Taylor, with retired lawyer, "our beloved brother of the South," Sam G. Dickson, bringing up the rear. These veterans were joined by the director of a think tank with the dubiously sanitized name, Institute for Western Civilization, doe-eyed young newcomer, James Russell. All members of the panel agreed that Buchanan's book was insufficiently race conscious. But having read the manuscript in galley form, Francis revealed that the original title was more desirably conceived as: The Death of Whitey. And besides, the editors at St. Martin's Press had removed all the good stuff on whiteness once the book was snatched by crafty editors from the saner hands of its author. So it was agreed. All panelists save Dickson, our "beloved brother of the South," insisted that Pat be let back in the club.

There was one more presentation, and then finally, mercifully, a few inconsequential closing remarks from Sam Dickson, the anti-Buchanan, and then the thing was over for another two short years.

In a wandering, excited, and self-congratulating overview of his career as a New York school board official, Frank Borzellieri pitched his New Century Foundation book, a collection of various Eurocentric screeds from his column in the Queens Ledger. This book could be purchased at a discount, along with titles ranging from those appearing on respected university presses to vanity pamphlets on the virtues of the Reich, at an open table in front of the room. "Intelligence is genetic in origin." "Different races have different intelligence." "Blacks are the least assimilable."

Neither Borzellieri's enthusiasm for his own writing, nor the unconscionable fact that the voting people of his district had placed Borzellieri in a position to funnel this venom into schools, seemed to get many nods of approval at this point.

The audience was thinning out. Western Men had planes to catch. And they seemed only too eager to get home, get home and defend those embattled positions of their unremarkable but respectable lives.
 
Copyright -¬ 2002. The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education. All rights reserved.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2004, 02:35:31 PM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2004, 02:29:27 PM »

No they are not anti-Christian.  Your position is anti-Christian Mr. Nikolas.

It is in the Bible.

Mr. Nikolas, what is going on today?
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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2004, 02:56:20 PM »

No they are not anti-Christian.  Your position is anti-Christian Mr. Nikolas.

It is in the Bible.



What's in the Bible--white supremacy?
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2004, 03:10:19 PM »

Are there really ordained Eastern Orthodox priests teaching
this kind of garbage?

I would point out to you, and you should relay to the original poster, that this idea is ridiculous prima facia.  The majority of Orthodox Christians in America are immigrants, and next to none of those immigrants are of Anglo-Irish descent.  Likewise, well more than 99% of the Orthodox in the world are not of Anglo-Irish descent.

So, unless some fellow is arguing that Orthodoxy is by and large self-hating, its patently obvious that its inconsistent with Orthodoxy.

Now...if he was arguing for the supremacy of those from the Caucasus...well...at least he'd be talking about people from an Orthodox country. Tongue

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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2004, 03:49:35 PM »

Quote
It is in the Bible.

If I'm not mistaken, St. Philip's preaching converted an Ethiopian eunuch, who took his new found faith back to his homeland and through his faith, the Queen of Ethiopia, St. Candace, was baptised and the Orthodox Faith took hold in that country.

I have an exceptionally difficult time in believing that the members of the American Renaissance Conference would consider the Ethiopian Christians their "brethren in Christ".  In fact, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't.  I have extensive experience in dealing with the far right and know them pretty darn well.
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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2004, 04:14:33 PM »

No they are not anti-Christian.  Your position is anti-Christian Mr. Nikolas.

Riiiiiiight...Guess someone forgot to tell Moses and his Cushite wife.  Or for that matter, they forgot to tell the Almighty!  He smote poor Aaron and Miriam for nothing!

It is in the Bible.

Yes, right here:

Acts 17:26 God has "made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth".

James 2:1  "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons".

In other words, St. James is telling us that Christians should not show partiality, or have favor for some people more than others.  I'm sure that is true in respect to "race" as well.

Genesis 1:27  "So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them".

Genesis 2:22 "Then the Lord made a woman from the rib He had taken out of the man, and He brought her to the man".

These two verses illustrate that in the beginning there were two people, obviously of one 'race.' Just as both were made in God's image, so would their offspring be. Thus, all mankind is equal in the sight of God as all are offspring of Adam and Eve.

Genesis 1:24
And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds..."

The God-given natural law for each creature to reproduce according to its 'kind' may be applied to man: since there were only two humans, Adam and Eve, and all people descended from them, there is no Biblical mandate against "racial intermarriage".

But Perhaps you refer to these verses:

Exodus 34:15-16  "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land (Canaanites and related peoples); for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same".

This is the initial warning to Israel about intermarriage with the peoples of Canaan whose abominable pagan religious practices were the reason God did not want the Israelites to deal with them. Adopting those practices would turn Israel from God, and this was the reason for prohibition of intermarriage and contact in general (Deuteronomy 7 expands on this as does Exodus 23:31-33).

1 Kings 11:1-3
"You must no intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods."

That is self-explanatory.  Plus, it refers to various peoples (Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites) most of whom would be classified as "Caucasian" or at least Near Eastern.

Ezra 9:2; 10-12 "They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness."

"But now, O our God, what we say after this? For we have disregarded the commands you gave through your servants the prophets when you said: The land you are entering to possess is a land polluted by the corruption of this peoples. By their detestable practices they have filled it with their impurity from one end to the other. Therefore do not give your daughters in marriage to their sons or take their daughters for your sons..."

The reason for remaining separate from the people is reiterated while post-captivity leaders.  The term 'holy race,' or 'seed' as in the King James, does not designate a 'racial' group of people but rather is meant to designate the unique status of the Jewish people as the only religio-ethnic group in the area who were not worshipping pagan gods.

God's prohibition against intermarriage with these folks was not based on racial but rather the religious and societal practices of those peoples. Using this prohibition to support racist theories of superiority or segregationist policy is inaccurate. A further proof that the covenant was not 'racial' in nature is found in the accepting and honoring of non-Israelite (and non-Semitic) people in Scripture:

Numbers 12:21 - Moses marries an Ethiopian woman, resulting in Aaron and Miriam challenging his leadership; God forcefully supports Moses with no condemnation of the marriage
Matthew 1:5 - Rahab, the Canaanite from Jericho, and Ruth, the Moabite, are part of Our Lord Jesus' genealogy (a geneology, I might add, which contains all of the "races" of man, Ham, Shem, and Japeth).
2 Samuel 3:3 - David's wife Macaah was a Geshurite, an Aramean.
1 Chronicles 11:26-47 - the list of David's honored Mighty Men included Zelek the Ammonite, Ithmah the Moabite and Uriah the Hittite, all non-Israelite peoples.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations...
While Jesus' personal ministry was spent with the Jewish nation (Matthew 15:24), He did minister to non-Jews (Gentiles) who called upon him (the 'woman of Canaan' in Matthew 15:22, the Samaritan leper in Luke 17:16, and the Roman centurion in Matthew Cool. The New Covenant, however, was for all people and the disciples were given the Great Commission to spread it to all, regardless of race.

Romans 4:16-17
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring - not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations..."
After writing that all men (Jew and Gentile in Romans 3:9-10) are equally guilty of sin, Paul writes that the true heirs of Abraham and his promise are those people of all nations who believe.

Acts 8:14; 8:34-39; 11:1
These verses show how the Samaritans, a black Ethiopian and white Roman Gentiles receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Ethiopian is a direct refutation of racists propaganda that declares certain non-white peoples are "less than human".

1 John 2:9
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
The Greek word for brother (adelphos) is used widely in the New Testament to denote a neighbor (Luke 10:29), the 'brethren' of Jesus bound by belief in Him (Matthew 25:40 and Mark 3:35), and is widened to include all human believers and angels (Revelation 22:9). Thus, hatred of any person for any reason, including race, is sinful.

James 2:9
But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.
James is specifically addressing favoritism shown to wealthier individuals who visit the church. This command, however, is applicable to showing favoritism for any characteristic, including race.

CONCLUSION: The New Testament emphasizes that all men are equally guilty of sin and equally able to be saved by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. No where is racial separation or superiority taught or condoned. In fact the interaction of Jews and Gentiles, the 'segregation' of the day in Israel, was specifically condemned (Galatians 2:11-12).

And then there is the famous "For God so loved the worldGǪ" (John 3:16), not just "For God so loved the Anglo/Celtic guys...


Mr. Nikolas, what is going on today?

Not much.  Just spending some time on the web, reading some Meyendorff.  What's going on with you?

"When considered in a true Christian sense, a nationality can never be offensive to another nationality. Rather, a Christian nation appreciates and learns from other nationalities. The Orthodox Church possesses an inherent capacity for adapting customs of a particular nationality into the texture of its religious life. This is, in fact, a profound example of social impartiality. The Church is always open to engage a surrounding nationality and assimilate whatever is beneficial spiritually...All Christians are to manifest that receptive nature; it is a mark of spiritual maturity. If the passing millennium was an era of religious-nationalistic hostility, could we possibly hope that the next one will be a time for nationalities to come to a respectful appreciation for each other? What an incredible witness it would be if Orthodox nationalities would assert the Gospel-based, charitable and prudent attitudes towards other members of the human race! The Church can express herself only in those cultures which accept Christ as the ultimate criterion of what is just and good. It rejects divisiveness and tribal warfare" (Fr. John Meyendorff).

"And what about those Christians who believe that the white race is God's chosen race, that all other races exist out of God's punishment or anger? Do these Christians hold the same truths as we hold? Can one reconcile this notion with the faith of St. Paul, who says that "in Christ their is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek," and, by extension, "black nor white nor red nor yellow"? " (Fr. John Matusiak)

and watching a video about Dr. MLK's good buddy, Bishop IAKOVOS:

http://www.goarch.org/en/multimedia/video/

Click on the video entitled: "IAKOVOS, A LEGACY"

and the Ecumenical Patriarch says:

Statement of His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew

For the Forthcoming United Nations Durban World Conference

Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia, and Related Intolerance
 
At the Phanar, March 17, 2001

From an Orthodox Christian perspective, the virtues of diversity and tolerance provide the fundamentals for a Christian life, much in the same manner as do sunlight and water in the nurturing of a plant. Without either of these virtues, nourishment is lacking and spiritual death is inevitable.

An Orthodox Christian celebrates the diversity of the entirety of God's creation, rejoicing in the infinite multitude of beauty and meaning which only diversity can truly manifest. We recognize that diversity is fundamentally necessary for the achievement and sustenance of unity amongst all the members of the Church in the very same Body of Christ. Whenever human beings fail to recognize the value of diversity, they deeply diminish the glory of God's creation. Following the example of the three persons of the Holy Trinity--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--all human beings are called to exist relationally to one another, united in the bond of love, as different and unique persons, each endowed with specific talents and characteristics, each created in the image and likeness of God. All human beings--regardless of religion, race, national origin, color, creed, or gender--are living icons of God, innately worthy of such respect and dignity. Whenever human beings fail to treat others with this respect, they insult God, the Creator, as is explained through the teachings of the Christian Scriptures.

Orthodox Christians throughout the world live side by side with peoples of other religions and Christian confessions. With the rapid rise of advancement in communication and mobility, human beings are increasingly liberated from the geographical boundaries which used to separate them. As a result of recast boundaries, people now find themselves living in a global village amidst new neighbors who represent widely differing world perspectives, histories, and cultures. The realities of pluralism challenge each person in the global village to reflect more critically upon the teachings of his or her own faith, in light of the multitude of differing perspectives. An Orthodox Christian responds to these challenges with the understanding that we must always be tolerant of the perspectives of others, especially when such perspectives differ on the basis of religious, cultural, or historical ideology.

The Orthodox Church does not seek to convince others of any one particular understanding of truth or revelation, nor does it seek to convert others to a particular mode of thinking. Rather, she calls all persons from all walks of life to feel the heartbeat of the Church, to sense the breath of life inhaling and exhaling from her body--the body of Christ--and to experience her maternal love and comfort, thereby being at peace while listening openly to the perspective of the other with respect and tolerance.

The opposite of the perspective of respect and tolerance is the perspective of fear and self-righteousness. Whenever human beings react to the perspectives and beliefs of others on the basis of fear and self-righteousness, they violate the God-given right and freedom of others to come to know God and one another in the manner inherent to their identity as peoples. Unfortunately, as a result of sin in the world, the effects of which lead ultimately to spiritual death, human beings are easily predisposed to viewing others on the basis of fear. Such xenophobic tendencies are chiefly the result of being out of communion with God, who calls all members of His creation into His love and eternal presence. We see the first example of such an occurrence in the book of Genesis, when Adam fell prey to the effects of evil in the world, being forced away from the close communion which he had enjoyed with God, the Creator of the world. Yet God, out of His love for humankind, continues to call all human beings into perfect communion with Him. When human beings are in communion with God, who Himself is the very essence of inexhaustible love, xenophobia-- fear of the other--is not possible since human beings do not see each other as strangers, but rather as brothers and sisters in communion with the loving Lord.

Central, therefore, to the teachings of the Orthodox Church is the fundamental belief that Christianity must play an active role in efforts toward the reconciliation of all peoples. This understanding is based upon the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, who preached a message precisely of reconciliation, engaging in dialogue and conversation with peoples from all walks of life with the simple two-fold message to love God with all their hearts and to love their neighbor as they would themselves. The reconciliatory role of Christianity can only be initiated and sustained by and through the voice and ear of genuine tolerance. The virtue of tolerance, together with its twin virtue diversity, reflect the divine attributes of love which God maintains in His essence perfectly, infinitely, indescribably, and inexhaustibly. The Orthodox Church, which heralds this message of love, the Christian Gospel, categorically condemns racism, xenophobia, and all other forms of related intolerance as destructive to the vision of peace which God desires and which human beings, organizations of goodwill, and above all the Church, aim to promote. Furthermore, the Orthodox Church commends all organizations of social, international, and political character which are dedicated to the pursuit of justice, believing that the work of such organizations serves to advance the good of society, and as such is most pleasing before God.

Finally, we wish upon all men and women of all ages, religions, races, colors, creeds, and nations of our planet Earth peace and goodwill, beseeching our great and loving God that He grant to all of us the wisdom to truly see one another as we have been created, namely as brothers, sisters, and children of the Lord. May the infinite love of God be with you all. Amen.


Amen, Dhespota!

I guess since the Orthodox Church is categorically against racism, Thornton needs to go talk to his bishop:

Statement of the Pan-Orthodox Synod of 1872:
"We renounce, censure and condemn racism, that is racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, hatreds and dissensions within the Church of Christ, as contrary to the teaching of the Gospel and the holy canons of our blessed fathers which "support the holy Church and the entire Christian world, embellish it and lead it to divine godliness."


What I am wondering is why Met. Cyprian's Greek Old Calendarist group (if that is indeed his Church) hasn't reprimanded him for this un-Orthodox stance?
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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2004, 05:30:59 PM »

FWIW, if he is in Met. Cyprian's group, I think his bishop would be Archbp. Chrysostomos (Gonzalez) of Etna, CA. Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2004, 05:45:09 PM »

Guess I'm just ornery, but if someone wants my race I'm going to say

HUMAN.

Ebor
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« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2004, 06:16:43 PM »

I'm with you Ebor!

FWIW, if he is in Met. Cyprian's group, I think his bishop would be Archbp. Chrysostomos (Gonzalez) of Etna, CA. Smiley

Gonzales?!?  After all of Thornton and his cronies' rants against Latino and other "non-white" immigrants, this is like finding out that Louis Farrakhan's spiritual father was the Lubavitcher Rebbe!  I wonder what the bishop thinks of all this?  Perhaps I'll find his contact info and e-mail him.


BTW, I posted this same question in another forum, and a poster there who is a seminarian at St. Vlad's replied: "In our canon law class at St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary, Professor John Erickson, now the dean, said that the Church prefers interracial marriages because it brings people of two different backgrounds together."
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2004, 07:15:01 PM »

FWIW, if he is in Met. Cyprian's group, I think his bishop would be Archbp. Chrysostomos (Gonzalez) of Etna, CA. Smiley

Quote
Gonzales?!?  After all of Thornton and his cronies' rants against Latino and other "non-white" immigrants, this is like finding out that Louis Farrakhan's spiritual father was the Lubavitcher Rebbe!

:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  HAHAHAHAHA!!!  OH!  Whoooooooo, I needed a good laugh today!

Pedro
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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2004, 09:47:09 PM »

The strange thing is, there was a problem a number of years back because Archbp. Chrysostomos felt like a certain group, who published a certain book, were being racist, because they referred to him as "Bp. Chrysostomos Gonzalez" (or something like that) instead of just calling him Archbp. Chrysostomos, so he seems to be somewhat sensitive to that sort of stuff. But it's possible that Fr. James has since moved on from Cyprian's group, or even that I was mistaken about that part. Hopefully someone (ahem) can confirm or contradict what I've said?
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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2004, 11:05:03 PM »

1) Fr James Thorton is a priest in the True Orthodox Church of Greece under Metropolitan Cyprian, and Archbishop Chrysostomos (Gonzales).

2) Archbishop Chrysostomos is of German, Greek, and Spanish decent.  He does not have any Mexican blood in him.

3) The Etna group (as they are often called) has several Hispanic members.

Anastasios
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« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2004, 11:07:30 PM »

I love immigrants. They are AWESOME (especially the non-white ones. It is about time we had some variety in America!)!

Anastasios
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« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2004, 11:43:37 PM »

I love immigrants. They are AWESOME (especially the non-white ones. It is about time we had some variety in America!)!

Preach it!   -íAs+¡ es!  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2004, 08:15:15 AM »

1) Fr James Thorton is a priest in the True Orthodox Church of Greece under Metropolitan Cyprian, and Archbishop Chrysostomos (Gonzales).

2) Archbishop Chrysostomos is of German, Greek, and Spanish decent.  He does not have any Mexican blood in him.

3) The Etna group (as they are often called) has several Hispanic members.

Anastasios

I wonder what the Hispanic members think about James Thornton's teaching?  I wonder what the bishop thinks?  Anastasios, would you happen to have the bishop's e-mail address?  If so, would you please pm it to me?
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2004, 10:50:14 AM »

Am currently reading "The Unbroken Circle", re the connection between ancient Christianity in Africa and the African Americans of today.  It's pretty interesting, though I wish I had the time to sit & read it through all at once.
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2004, 10:58:28 AM »

Guess I'm just ornery, but if someone wants my race I'm going to say

HUMAN.

Ebor

Hobbits are HUMAN ? Shocked
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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2004, 12:46:43 PM »

Hobbits are HUMAN ? Shocked

 Grin LOL!  Good one Ari!

Ania - I just finished re-reading the Unbroken Circle myself.  Let me know if you want to compare notes.
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« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2004, 03:10:48 PM »

Sure thing, just let me finish it.  I actually heard Fr. Moses Berry speak not to long ago in DC... I only went because I had nothing to do that Thursday night & my sis asked me to go because she couldn't & ask some questions.  In the end it was very interested, he answered all the questions before I could ask them, and gave me the Unbroken Circle.  He had some very interesting ideas 'bout why slaves were so open to the spiritual.
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2004, 04:16:04 PM »

Slightly (or perhaps more than slightly) off-topic, but would St. Augustine of Hippo have been black?  Apparently his mother's name, "Monica", is Berber, and if I'm not mistaken, the Berbers were black, were they not?
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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2004, 06:07:19 PM »

Hobbits are HUMAN ? Shocked

Near enough... and I quote:

"It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of our: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves.  Of old the spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did." Prologue to "The Fellowship of the Ring", page 11 in my edition.  

Also, the Hobbits share in the Gift or Doom of Men, that is Death as opposed to the immortality of the Eldar.

 Grin Grin Grin

I shall refrain from further exposition from "The Silmarillion" or the other volumes.

Thanks for a good laugh, Demetri.

Ebor
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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2004, 06:18:48 PM »


I shall refrain from further exposition from "The Silmarillion" or the other volumes.

Despite my self-imposed prohibition of fantasy literature, I do own a copy of "The Silmarillion" (my spouse's actually) and must now read it.  Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2004, 06:33:12 PM »

Despite my self-imposed prohibition of fantasy literature, I do own a copy of "The Silmarillion" (my spouse's actually) and must now read it.  Smiley
Demetri

Just to warn you, most of "The Silmarillion" is a more serious book and doesn't read like LotR as much.  It starts out with the creation of Middle Earth by God (Eru or Iluvatar) and Valar and Maiar (like angels and archangels), then the creation of the Eldar (Elves) Then things start getting more grim. It is the pre-cursor of Hobbit and LotR, though those are touched on near the end.  

Ebor
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2004, 06:36:47 PM »

Slightly (or perhaps more than slightly) off-topic, but would St. Augustine of Hippo have been black?  Apparently his mother's name, "Monica", is Berber, and if I'm not mistaken, the Berbers were black, were they not?
As I categorically deny such "black vs. other" definitions of race, what does it matter? "Black" or any other criteriion by what standard? What color is a "soul"?

Demetri
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2004, 06:42:39 PM »

Ebor,

I only dabbled in LOTR mythology/history, apart from the actual Triology, so I've probably got quite a few notions that are only half-true floating around my head. One such notion is that the Maiar were more like demi-gods than archangels, and that Gandalf the Wizard (and the other 4 wizards) were therefore demi-gods. Would you say that such an understanding is incorrect?
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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2004, 07:31:33 PM »

If you will read The Silmarillion you will see that there is only one god (Eru/Iluvatar), that the Valar are essentially archangels, and the Maiar are lesser angels. Hence, Morgoth = Satan, at least if you follow John Milton.
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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2004, 08:13:10 PM »

Ebor,

I only dabbled in LOTR mythology/history, apart from the actual Triology, so I've probably got quite a few notions that are only half-true floating around my head. One such notion is that the Maiar were more like demi-gods than archangels, and that Gandalf the Wizard (and the other 4 wizards) were therefore demi-gods. Would you say that such an understanding is incorrect?

Sorry, but yes I would say that it is incorrect.  As Keble wrote, there is *ONE* God, Eru ("The One") all things come into being by Him. The Valar may seem as gods to the peoples of Middle Earth, but all their doings are part of the Plan of God for his creation. To each is given a love for a different part of that creation and the desire to aid in it's care and making.  Yavanna and growing things; Aule and the crafting of metal and stone; Elbereth kindles the stars and so forth.  They may be invoked or asked for protection (songs to Elbereth) but it is in the same mode as one asking for aid from a saint or an archangel.  The Maiar are of a lower order then the Valar, thus compared to angels.  The 5 "wizards" are sent to Middle Earth from Valinor to guide and aid and fight the rising again to power of Sauron. (Himself a Maia, once a servant/lieutentent to Morgoth the rebelling Vala.)

Recall that Gandalf facing the Balrog says that he is a "Servant"; a powerful one in certain circumstances (he doesn't use it much, mostly he gives counsel).  Saruman chose to try and become a master rather then a servant, thus leading to his downfall.

If you would like, or if anyone is interested, perhaps we can step over a couple of fora and have a thread of the "Cosmology and Structure of Middle Earth".  I warn you, I have a number of the books of notes and earlier writings, the History of Middle Earth series that Tolkien's son compiled after his father's death and a volume of Tolkien's letters.  So I can rabbit on and drive folk mad with that too.  Cheesy

Ebor
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« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2004, 08:23:02 PM »

This should be titled How Orthodoxy takes on Socialist ideology for itself.

Is Socialist ideology Christian?

Is Universalism, Christian or Socialist??

Are the Orthodox deceived in doing the Marxist home plan?
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« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2004, 02:38:00 PM »

This should be titled How Orthodoxy takes on Socialist ideology for itself.

Is Socialist ideology Christian?

Is Universalism, Christian or Socialist??

Are the Orthodox deceived in doing the Marxist home plan?

The idea that people that might be different then oneself should be treated like oneself would want to be treated, as Human Beings is "Socialist"?

How is political thought getting in on this?

I thought "Universalism" had to do with (at least in part) all people being saved.  

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« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2004, 03:25:09 PM »

This should be titled How Orthodoxy takes on Socialist ideology for itself.

Is Socialist ideology Christian?

Is Universalism, Christian or Socialist??

Are the Orthodox deceived in doing the Marxist home plan?

You lost me there, buddy!

Anastasios
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« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2004, 03:58:25 PM »

All,

I've been informed by someone in ROCOR that Fr. James Thornton is now in ROCOR under Vl. Kyrill.


Ebor

Thanks Smiley Boy did I get that wrong!
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« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2004, 04:47:44 PM »

Oy shucks, will have to investigate that to be sure... but ROCOR has survived such nutcases before.  
I remember reading the Acts, and connecting the basis of socialism to what is written in them... can't quite remember how, but strangely enough my sister who teaches Comparitive Politics at a university had a student who made the same connection & wrote an essay on it.
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« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2004, 04:59:42 PM »

Sorry, but yes I would say that it is incorrect.  As Keble wrote, there is *ONE* God, Eru ("The One") all things come into being by Him. The Valar may seem as gods to the peoples of Middle Earth, but all their doings are part of the Plan of God for his creation. To each is given a love for a different part of that creation and the desire to aid in it's care and making.  Yavanna and growing things; Aule and the crafting of metal and stone; Elbereth kindles the stars and so forth.  They may be invoked or asked for protection (songs to Elbereth) but it is in the same mode as one asking for aid from a saint or an archangel.  The Maiar are of a lower order then the Valar, thus compared to angels.  The 5 "wizards" are sent to Middle Earth from Valinor to guide and aid and fight the rising again to power of Sauron. (Himself a Maia, once a servant/lieutentent to Morgoth the rebelling Vala.)

Recall that Gandalf facing the Balrog says that he is a "Servant"; a powerful one in certain circumstances (he doesn't use it much, mostly he gives counsel).  Saruman chose to try and become a master rather then a servant, thus leading to his downfall.

If you would like, or if anyone is interested, perhaps we can step over a couple of fora and have a thread of the "Cosmology and Structure of Middle Earth".  I warn you, I have a number of the books of notes and earlier writings, the History of Middle Earth series that Tolkien's son compiled after his father's death and a volume of Tolkien's letters.  So I can rabbit on and drive folk mad with that too.  Cheesy

Ebor


Damnation, you beat me to it.  I probably have everything you do and I'm sure both of us combined could make people's heads swim.  Tongue
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« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2004, 05:01:23 PM »

It's true, Thornton is a priest in Oxnard, California at a ROCOR parish.  Hopefully he's reformed.
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« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2004, 05:21:44 PM »

Damnation, you beat me to it.  I probably have everything you do and I'm sure both of us combined could make people's heads swim.  Tongue

Cool!  Want to go for it?  We could ask an admin to move the posts from this thread or we could start a new one.  In depth Tolkien!!  Creation and sub-creation Singing the universe into Being!  Hatred of the Darkness for the Light while desiring to posess it.  Temptations of the men of Numinor to seize the Blessed Realm.  Loads of ways that it relates to Christianity Grin  

Have you read "Meditations of Middle Earth" by the way?  It's a book of essays by various authors and artists on how Tolkien's work affected them: Pratchett, Swanwick, Esther Friesner among others.

Ebor
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« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2004, 08:29:40 PM »

In the periodical, “The Orthodox Church” vol 39 number 11/12, November/December 2003, from Syosset, New York, is an article on the front page entitled,

“Hundreds attend service for UN community

“Metropolitan Herman hosts gathering at Greek Cathedral

“Hundreds of clergy and faithful joined hierarchs from the Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas [SCOBA] and the Standing Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches [SCOOCH] and dozens of representatives from the United Nations at Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Archdiocesan Cathedral here on Monday, October 6, 2003 for the third annual Orthodox Prayer Service for the UN Community.

What is the Greek Orthodox Church doing giving a prayer service to Socialists?

Who destroyed the Orthodox Church of Russia?  Communists?

What is the United Nations?

The United Nations is the last step in the evolutionary process of political organization.  John Kiang, a socialist himself, in his book, “One World”, declares that the United Nations and the Global Government is from Karl Marx!!!!

Karl Marx wanted to do away with nation states and replace it with one global government.

Alger Hiss wrote the constitution for it and was outed by Whitaker Chambers.  Alger Hiss was a communist.  Records released from the now defunct Soviet Union proof this right.

In the book, Elements of Socialism, A Textbook, by Fargo, another devoted socialist says the exact same thing; that one world government is socialist ideology.

It says in Psalm 1, v1:

BLESSED IS THE MAN WHO HAS NOT WALKED IN THE COUNSEL OF THE UNGODLY, AND HAS NOT STOOD IN THE WAY OF SINNERS, AND HAS NOT SAT IN THE SEAT OF EVIL MEN.

What are the Greek Orthodox Bishops doing?  

Quote
Book of Sirach: 13.17 “What fellowship hath the wolf with the lamb?  What agreement is there between the hyenna and the dog?”

The United Nations is a communist organization.  It’s values are opposed to all of Christian teachings, Christian culture and Christian society.  

If you can’t lead your people to liberty in this life, how can he lead you to liberty in the next?

Wis 14.20 "The Multitude is easily deceived"

Book of Sirach, Septuagint, "Beware that thou be not deceived,..."

Jeremiah 2.8, "And they that handle the law knew me not".

II Chron 19.2, "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate God?"

Off the wall posts.
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« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2004, 08:35:14 PM »

In the periodical, “The Orthodox Church” vol 39 number 11/12, November/December 2003, from Syosset, New York, is an article on the front page entitled,

“Hundreds attend service for UN community

“Metropolitan Herman hosts gathering at Greek Cathedral

“Hundreds of clergy and faithful joined hierarchs from the Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas [SCOBA] and the Standing Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches [SCOOCH] and dozens of representatives from the United Nations at Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Archdiocesan Cathedral here on Monday, October 6, 2003 for the third annual Orthodox Prayer Service for the UN Community.

HEY!  Don't criticise this!  It was there that I met JoeS and Orthodoc of OCNet fame.  Smiley
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