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WHEELER
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« on: September 21, 2004, 10:17:13 AM »

Captured in 1919 by World War I American Forces from a Communist Party office were documents on how to secure Germany for Communism.  The first thing mentioned was “To destroy the ruggedness of the People”.  (Plato said, “The beginning of truth is to wonder.”)  Now, ask yourself  WHY?

Can you find what word is missing in the below verses?

NEW BIBLES
Nestle-Aland Greek-English New Testament 26th edition l979 (Used as textbook in Roman Catholic Seminaries.)

   
Quote
1 Cor 6:9 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?  Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, not idolaters, not adulterers, not sexual perverts, GǪwill inherit the kingdom of God.”   
   

The New American Bible with Nihil Obstat  Stephen J. Hartdegen, O.F.M.,S.S.L.  Christian P. Ceroke, O. Carm., S.T.D.  Imprimatur: Patrick Cardinal O’Boyle, D.D.  Archbishop of Washington   l987

   
Quote
1 Cor 6:9  “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God?  Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes not practicing homosexualsGǪwill inherit the kingdom of heaven.”

The Orthodox Study Bible  with Joseph Allen, Th. D.; Jack Norman Sparks, PH. D.; Theodore Stylianopoulos, Th. D.; Archbishop IAKOVOS, Metropolitan THEODOSIUS. 1993

   
Quote
1 Cor 6:9 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?  Do not be deceived.  Neither fornicators, not idolaters, not adulterers, not homosexuals, nor sodomites, will inherit the kingdom of God.

OLD BIBLES
The New American Catholic Edition  The Holy Bible Imprimatur Francis Cardinal Spellman  l958

   
Quote
1 Cor 6:9  “Or do you not know that the unjust will not possess the kingdom of God?  Do not err; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor sodomites,GǪwill possess the kingdom of God.”

The King James Bible

   
Quote
1 Cor 6.9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?  Be not deceived:  neither fornicators, not idolaters, not adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves  with mankindGǪshall inherit the kingdom of God.

What is this word Effeminate?  How come modern Bibles don’t have this word in it but older Bibles do?

In the original Greek there are five activities mentioned, but in a scholarly professional work of a 26th edition, only four of the five words are translated into English.  They use the word ‘sexual perverts’.  The Greek is clear on its own meaning.  The two Greek words are “malakoi” and “arsenokoitai”.  “Arsenokoitoi” in the literal translation of the Greek means “men who lie with men” and the literal translation of  “malakoi” is “soft” and when applied to a man means “effeminate”.
   At the college I attended, I reread Plato’s Republic in which Socrates remarks that “Too much music effeminizes the man”.   I thought this an odd comment until the fundamentalist Protestants on campus began a campaign amongst themselves to push other Protestant Christians to use only The King James Bible.  Their contention was that modern Bibles mistranslate quite a few verses and that the only Bible to trust is the KJV.  When I picked up their material, 1 Corinthians 6:9 jumped out.  My Roman Catholic Bible, The New American Bible, did not have this same verse.  My friend in the classical department pointed out the Greek.  The King James Bible was correct and my version was in error.

What are they trying to hide?  What is so important that this word is left out of one Bible and mistranslated in others but not mistranslated in old Bibles?  What is going on?

Words have meaning.  They convey ideas.  Lose the word, society loses the idea and the concept.  When is the last time or have you ever heard the word, “effeminate” or “effeminization”?  This word like manliness is gone completely out of our vocabulary and our educational system.  The idea of manliness and effeminancy is totally lost on modern society.  Ask yourself, is it by chance or by design?


Plato’s Republic

   “The one producing a temper of hardness and ferocity, the other of softness and effeminacy.”  To the answer of an exclusive devotion to gymnastics and the exclusive devotion to music.  (III Republic, pg 118 Translator B. Jowett, M.A., Vintage Books.)
In a paraphrase, “Too much music effeminizes the male.”
Plato’s Republic is an educational treatise.  Though it is a discussion of the State, many of Socrates discussion centers around education.  Education deals with culture and Culture defines politics.
Does “too much music” turn a boy into boy prostitute or a sexual pervert?  The word does not have a sexual context to it.  It means soft, tender.



Herodotus  Loeb Classical Library Pg 197   Book 1 155-157

“But let the Lydians be pardoned; and lay on them this command, that they may not revolt or be dangerous to you; then, I say, and forbid them to possess weapons of war, and command them to wear tunics under their cloaks and buskins on their feet, and to teach their sons lyre-playing and song and dance and huckstering (the word “retail” in one translation).  Then, O King, you will soon see them turned to women instead of men; and thus you need not fear lest they revolt.”

This is an appeal from King Croesus, the king of the Lydians, a Greek city and people on the West coast of Turkey, to the Persian King.  What the defeated king proposes is to inculturate softness in order to make them  docile and servile.  Here is the principle “Culture defines Politics”.  Evil men and Good men read this both.  A good man prevents the effeminization of men while an evil man  (i.e. a socialist) seeks to effeminize the men (or is deceived into doing it.)  


Crudens Complete Concordance pg 755 “Weak and ineffectual men are sometimes spoken of as women”. First published in 1737.

    Isa 3:13  (Masoretic Text)
   “As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.  O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.”

Isa  19:16 (Septuagint)
“But in that day the Egyptians shall be as women, in fear and in trembling because of the hand of the Lord of hosts, which he shall bring upon them.”

Nah 3:13 (Septuagint)
“Behold, thy people within thee are as women:  the gates of thy land shall surely be opened to thine enemies: the fire shall devour thy bars.”

   Jer 28:30(Septuagint)
“The warrior of Babylon has failed to fight; they shall sit there in the siege; their power is broken; they are become like women; her tabernacles have been set on fire; her bars are broken.”

Clearly, the Old Testament realizes this same concept.  The Greeks have a word for this and it is called “malakoi” effeminate.  

Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David W. Bercot, Editor  pg 445

“A true man must have no mark of effeminacy visible on his face, or any other part of his body.  Let no blot on his manliness, then, ever be found either in his movements or habits.”  St. Clement of Alexander (c. 195, E), 2.289.

“And let not men, therefore, spend their time in barbers’ shops and taverns, babbling nonsense.  And let them give up hunting for the women who sit nearby, and ceaselessly talking slander against many to raise a laugh.”  St. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.289

“What is the purpose in the Law’s prohibition against  a man wearing woman’s clothing? Is it not that the Law would have us to be masculine and not to be effeminate in either person or actions--or in thought and word? Rather, it would have the man who devotes himself to the truth to be masculine both in acts of endurance and  patience--in life, conduct, word, and discipline.”  St. Clement of Alexandria (c. l95, E), 2.365.

Pg 693.
“Therefore, we also reckon that the woman should be continent and practiced in fighting against pleasures, too.GǪ  Women are therefore to philosophize equally with men, though the males are preferable at everything, unless they have become effeminate.  To the whole human race, then, discipline and virtue are a necessity, if they would pursue after happinessGǪ”  St. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.419, 420

Pg 694
“It is not permitted to a woman to speak in the church, not to teach, baptize, offer, or to claim to herself a lot in any manly function, not to mention the priestly office.”  Tertullian (c. 207, W), 4.33


I picked up an old book on education at my college library.  In it was the phrase, “How can we educate without effeminizing?”  To this day I kick myself for not keeping a reference of this.

In my humble opinion, this word, “malakoi” is the most important word in the whole bible.  Why else would they mistranslate the word so improperly?  Because it is a dangerous word.  It is a dangerous word because of the concepts and ideas that it entails.  The sin of Adam was that he was effeminate.  He was weak and ineffectual.  St. Paul blames Adam not Eve for the falling away.  Adam was responsible.  Not Eve.  The principle, ‘culture defines politics’, is more clearly defined in Plato’s Republic.  It is the principle of microcosm/macrocosm; what goes in the little part, so goes the whole.  As the man is effeminate, so is the state.  As the man is effeminate, so is the church.  As the man is weak and ineffectual, so is the church weak and ineffectual.
Christianity can not survive in effeminate men.  Self government only existed among the Greeks because of their manliness.  It was this major factor that made them free and self governing.  The Persians and other asiatics lived under tyranny.  The one word that the Greeks described the asiatics and the Persians was the word, “malakoi”.

CONNECT THE DOTS.

Effeminacy and Thought

Xenophon, Econ. IV, 3 as quoted in “The Greeks” by Kitto

“Men do indeed speak ill of those occupations which are called handicrafts, and they are rightly held of little repute in communities, because they weaken the bodies of those who make their living at them by compelling them to sit and pass their days indoors.  Some indeed work all the time  by a fire.  But when the body becomes effeminate the mind too is debilitated.  Besides, these mechanical occupations leave a man no leisure to attend to his friends’ interests, or the public interest.  This class therefore cannot be of much use to his friends or defend his country. Indeed, some states, especially the most warlike, do not allow a citizen to engage in these handicraft occupations.”

Thomas Jefferson, Foley, ed., Encyclopedia of Thomas Jefferson, p. 318

“A strong body makes the mind strong.  As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun.  While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind.  Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind.  Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walk.”


The Ancients did not divorce the body from the mind.  2200 years later, Thomas Jefferson recognized the same thing.  The body is not separate from the mind.  There is no compartmentalization.  Weak body, weak mind.  Strong body, strong mind.  

To strengthen the argument of the “mechanics”, Thomas Jefferson, furthermore, said pretty much the same thing:

“The mobs of great cities add just so much to the support of pure government, as sores do to the strength of the human bodyGǪ.I consider the class of artificers as the panderers of vice, and the instruments by which the liberties of a country are generally overturned.”
(quoted in Liberty or Equality, Erik von Kuenhelt-Leddhin, pg 6, reference from “Works”, ed, Washington [New York:  Derby and Jackson, 1859], I, 403.)

One can have all the academic excellence in the world but if the man doesn’t have boldness in proclaiming it, what’s it worth?  St. Augustine said, “It is not enough to be good, it is necessary to fight evil.”  “To Fight” requires manliness and boldness.  What good is faith without manliness?

When is the last time a minister or priest taught on this subject?

Last Month?
Last Six Months?
Last Year?

Or is the answer Never?

Are Our people deceived?  Are Our texts translated by fervent Christians or by deceived or evil individuals?  Do we let socialists, liberals Communists tell us what is in Scripture?

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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2004, 10:30:06 AM »

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In my humble opinion, this word, “malakoi” is the most important word in the whole bible

(Why am I not surprised)  And here I am thinking the most important word(s) in the bible is Jesus Christ.  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: September 21, 2004, 10:30:31 AM by Doubting Thomas » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2004, 10:33:46 AM »

Maybe Wheeler is just trying to get banned from as many forums as he can... leastwise, this is one of the threads that led to him getting banned at the Euphrosynos Cafe...

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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2004, 10:41:06 AM »

Jesus Christ is not covered up.  Jesus Christ is not mistranslated.  Love is not mistranslated nor covered up.

But why this word?    Do ye wonder?

Why?  Why is malakoi not translated right?  Why are not Christians told about this?  Why are not many Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christians told that being effeminate will prevent them from going to heaven?Huh?

Why are we here in the first place?  Because Adam was effeminate.    Adam was not manly enough.  Adam did not take his leadership post.  Adam was weak.  This whole thing got started the whole reason for the coming of Jesus Christ, the writing of the scriptures is because men fail at being men.

All men are weak.  This is the whole point.  Boys are not being trained to being men.  Men are not men anymore.

Know ye the saying:

Quote
Remember the age of when Iron men sailed wooden ships.
Now, we live in an age when wooden men sail Iron ships.

Men are not men anymore.  The whole key is about accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  The other half of the equation is about a man being a man.
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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2004, 10:43:35 AM »

I have been banned on the Catholic website for a week.  But they can take criticism.  The Orthodox can not stand being criticized.  It looks to me that they have very thin skin.

As my saying is Iron sharpens Iron.
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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2004, 10:56:34 AM »

If that makes you sleep better at night.  Roll Eyes

But hey, like you said before you were banned at the Cafe, Orthodox are losers anyway, right? Who cares what they think?

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Where are the Orthodox?

The Orthodox is a loser church. The young do not know the faith, the churches are dying the people are dying. and the orthodox are clueless to what is going on around here. The Muslims are winning. They are victorious. They know how to win. Christians are just losers...

I have eaten at many Protestant and Catholic soup kitchens. I have never eaten at an Orthodox soup kitchen.

At college, the Protestant fundamentalist Christians went around with their bibles quoting scripture and meeting quietly on a Saturday night for prayer and worship. The witness of the Orthodox on campus was a beer can in hand and partying to the wee hours of the morning and I couldn't get the nine of them to Orthodox church.

Protestants know their faith and can defend it. Orthodox youth don't know a damn thing.

Protestants and Catholics show up on time for their services. I have been to many Protestant services and hardly anyone shows up late. Go to a Greek Orthodox service and half the people show up after the Gospel reading and a third show up after the eucharist. That never happens in a Catholic church.

Protestants can create an America. Orthodoxy couldn't.

Most Orthodox I know vote democratic/socialist. They vote for Enemies of Christianty. At least it is the Protestants, Jerry Falwell, Pastor John Hagee, Dobson etc, Catholics like Buchanan fighting to retain the Christian character of this country. Where's the Orthodox? Lost in Space?

In Protestant America, Protestants and Catholics are leading the fight against abortion. In ORTHODOX Greece, women have up to twenty abortions. Is there a pro-life movement in Greece? When was the last time at an orthodox liturgy did the collective pray for the end of abortion? Protestants and Catholics do all the time. - Wheeler Shares His Thoughts

I wonder why you bother posting on an Orthodox forum at all? Why don't you just stick to bothering Protestant and Catholic forums, where they happily let you slice up... er... I mean, "sharpen" others?
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2004, 10:56:40 AM »

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Wheeler: Men are not men anymore.  The whole key is about accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  The other half of the equation is about a man being a man.

Is it safe to say that this sums up your entire soteriology? (1)Make a personal decision to accept Christ and (2) if you are man, be a man?

(How does the "equation" work for females?  Would the other half of the equation consist of a "woman being a woman"?)

Yep, this definitely sounds more fundamentalist Protestant if this is in fact the "whole key".

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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2004, 11:05:51 AM »

For the record, given what Wheeler said in the quote in the above post, and what he has said in a number of other posts of his that I've read, I do not believe that he is an Orthodox Christian. At the very least, I certainly don't believe that he is a practicing Orthodox Christian.
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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2004, 11:13:00 AM »

I think this thread is stupid, but I would point out to Wheeler that the Orthodox Church has many less effeminate priests than the Catholic Church, in my experience.

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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2004, 11:16:22 AM »

Did you not learn something from this?

Is this thread not helpful?  Did you know this information before?

I agree Catholic Bishops and priests are more effeminate than Orthodox.  Do you want to know why?
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2004, 11:20:27 AM »

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Do you want to know why?

I'm sure if we say no, you'll tell us anyways.

I think you may be more entertaining than united from earlier this year.
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« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2004, 11:25:48 AM »

"Is this thread not helpful?  Did you know this information before?"

Yes, I did in fact know that there were differing translations of these passages.  I would have not thought it was stupid if you would have pointed it out in a more educational way.  But the manner you posted was quite clearly polemical as if you are going to show people why everyone else is either wrong or hiding something.  You could have communicated your message more effectively by not coming at it as if you are a lobbyist for "the cause."

That's just my two cents.

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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2004, 11:27:22 AM »

In the book, The Next Christendom, The Coming of  Global Christianity by Philip Jenkins, pg 96,
Quote
"The Eastern Orthodox churches will suffer acutely from Demographic changes....Falling birth rates will ultimately be more destructive to Orthodox fortunes than Muslim or communist persecutions ever were....by 2050 Orthodox believers will have shrunk to less than 3% of the world's population.

Orthodoxy is not growing it is dying.  I belong to the Pan-Cretan Association here in America.  The young don't know their faith.  A great majority are pagans and socialists.

The saying is "He who loves well, castigates well".  St. Paul at Ephesians 5.11-12, "Expose evil deeds".  Should I be banned because I do?  St. Paul in his letter to Titus says, "Therefore, Rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in faith".  I guess I should be punished for following the literal exhortation of St. Paul in the Scriptures.

And let me remind you of more scripture:

Hosea 4.6 "My people are destroyed by the lack of knowledge".

Paradios posts a post I posted in another thread because I am sick and tired of the Almighty opinion the Orthodox have of themselves.  They think themselves so self-righteous they can't see the forest for the trees.  They really think that their **** doesn't stink.  Well it does.  I see it from the ground floor.  You may sit in your ivory towers and think everything is peachy keen but it isn't, there is serious problems within Orthodoxy.  There is serious problems throughout Christianity.  It's time we get our act together.

I am just as hard on the Catholics as I am on you.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2004, 11:37:26 AM by WHEELER » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2004, 12:10:58 PM »

I agree Catholic Bishops and priests are more effeminate than Orthodox.  Do you want to know why?
No, not really.  This is an Orthodox forum, and how clergy of other faiths behave is not really a major concern of ours.

You seem to have an unhealthy focus on effeminate behavior.  Has this been a problem for you?  The bottom line of these verses, regardless of the translation is that those who are immoral and commit sexual sins are not of God's Kingdom.  In the context of the verse you cited, the use of effeminate denotes men who act like women in a sexual way.  

By your reasoning, a man can be righteous, God fearing, obedient to God's commandments, and not engaging in deviant sexual thoughts, orientations, or behavior, but still be condemned because he may have some behaviors which society at this point in time considers effeminate.  If so, to what degree, and what behaviors will cause damnation?  Having a lisp?  Having a limp wrist?  Being overly expressive and creative?  Enjoying broadway show tunes and ballet?
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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2004, 12:42:19 PM »

I belong to the Pan-Cretan Association here in America.  The young don't know their faith.  A great majority are pagans and socialists.
Pan-Cretan???  That's hillarious!

1 Titus:12-13
One of them, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith...

Now how sharp would you like your rebuke today?
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« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2004, 12:57:16 PM »

Jesus Christ is not covered up.  Jesus Christ is not mistranslated.

Well,... shouldn't it read "Savior Annointed One"? And isn't Jesus actually Joshua? After all that it how it is translated in the Old Testament.

John
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« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2004, 01:15:22 PM »

Theodore,

Excellent points!  Men used to wear white whigs with powder and tights!

Anastasios
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« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2004, 01:47:45 PM »

I have to say, after reading the first screed, that I'm not clear on what Wheeler means by 'effeminate".  Taking the quotes from the Greeks it would seem to mean any man who does things like wear shoes (the "Buskins" bit) works in a store ("huckstering") and doesn't spend his time in combat.  Why is Plato raised to the pinnacle of thought and direction of how to live?  And just because Jefferson prefered shooting to playing ball, basing what is "manly" on what is his personal taste in past-time is ridiculous.  

So people who work at "crafts" and are "artificers" aren't manly?  Well, seems to me that societies run better with people who make the funiture and build houses, let alone do plumbing.  A Good Plumber is a treasure, his value is far above rubies.  Cheesy

Again this is a bunch of assertions with selected quotes. And just what are some of the other sources like the first mentioned "Communist Party Documents"?

Was it posted to engage in discussion or to be bowed to as the Only True Way?  It reads to me like a bee in someones bonnet that isn't going to look at other interpretations or brook the suggestion that he may be wrong.

Ebor (dubious)  

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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2004, 01:52:28 PM »

Theodore,

Excellent points!  Men used to wear white whigs with powder and tights!

Anastasios

Good point, Anastasios.  Clothing and styles change with time.  What is odd to one era is normal to another. Clothes do not necessarily make for "Manly".  (Anyone who sneered at a Scots Highlander because he was wearing a "Skirt" just might be in for a surprise.  Grin

Ebor

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« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2004, 02:03:34 PM »

I have been in Orthodox settings for 30 years.  Orthodox denigrate the Old Testament.  Fact- I am sitting at a picnic with a retired Greek Orthodox bishop from Jerusalem.  he denigrates the OT as a bunch of bloodthirsty Jewish tales foreign to Christianity.  Oh Really?  This is my best example of what I Have been hearing in the last thirty years.

Next, the Orthodox denigrate classical learning.  Typical is the reponse of Theodore thinking that Malakos has sexual connotations which it doesn't.  If he read Classical literature, he wouldn't have answered the way he did.

I can see he talks from complete ignorance.  Has he read Plato, Aristotle, or the the 1st century writer of the work "Virtues and Vices"? No, because the classical works is not Orthodoxy.  I'm sorry.  Where else does one get the meaning of the Greek word from if not from classical culture.  I must be an idiot.

I have put up the Christian meaning, (Oh I am sorry what Roman Catholics think and what Western Christians take the meaning for is not Orthodox) so I guess I put up the Western Christian meaning of effeminacy at this website.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_definition_of_effeminacy

The ungodly influenced by homosexual scholarship and totally liberal have put up their definition of effeminacy at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effeminacy

So where is the Orthodox definition ---because I know they won't accept what Aristotle or ST. Thomas says.  Orthodoxy won't have anything to do with us Roman Catholics.  "They're not Orthodox"!

Whatever happened to being just a Christian?
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« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2004, 02:10:27 PM »

I think this thread is stupid.

But Wheeler's posts have certainly gotten the posting counts up again.  It was gettingt too quiet around here, maybe....  Grin

Then again ""Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain." --Schiller
 :-

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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2004, 02:21:35 PM »

From the article Aristotle says

 
Quote
"Of the dispositions described above, the deliberate avoidance of pain is rather a kind of softness (malakos); the deliberate pursuit of pleasure is profligacy in the strict sense." (16); "One who is deficient in resistance to pains that most men withstand with success, is soft (malakos) or luxurious (for Luxury is a kind of Softness (malakia); such a man lets his cloak trail on the ground to escape the fatigue and trouble of lifting it, or feigns sickness, not seeing that to counterfeit misery is to be miserable." (17) and "People too fond of amusement are thought to be profligate, but realy they are soft (malakos); for amusement is rest, and therefore a slackening of effort, and addiction to amusement is a form of excessive slackness" (18)

It sounds just like what is happening today in modern American culture and within all the churches.

Delibrate pursuit of pleasure?
Luxury?
addiction to amusement?
Too much music?

UMMMM- Where are the shepards of the people?  Where are the shepards quiding the flock out of danger?

Weak mind is weak morals.  (Septuagint)IV Mcc 7.20, "Some who have weak reasoning are governed by their passions".
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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2004, 03:26:39 PM »

Quote
UMMMM- Where are the shepards of the people?  Where are the shepards quiding the flock out of danger?

The shepherds are all around, but one does not have to be a loud, boorish lout in order to be a shepherd of the Truth.  

Remember, the Prophet Elias heard God not in the hurricane nor the earthquake nor the fire, but as a whisper on the wind...the "small, still voice".

Many speak the Truth, and more often than not, they're not blowhards such as yourself.
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« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2004, 05:19:48 PM »

I have been in Orthodox settings for 30 years.  Orthodox denigrate the Old Testament.  Fact- I am sitting at a picnic with a retired Greek Orthodox bishop from Jerusalem.  he denigrates the OT as a bunch of bloodthirsty Jewish tales foreign to Christianity.  Oh Really?  This is my best example of what I Have been hearing in the last thirty years.

Next, the Orthodox denigrate classical learning.  Typical is the reponse of Theodore thinking that Malakos has sexual connotations which it doesn't.  If he read Classical literature, he wouldn't have answered the way he did.

LOL!  If Wheeler only knew my educational background.  Suffice it to say, the Classical Greek era ended 400 years prior to the time of Christ.  Hence, it doesn't follow that a strict classical definition would necessarily be used when the scriptures were written.  There's also something called context.  But arguing over a translation is foolish, as the original will always be superior to any translation, and the KJV isn't a perfect translation either.  The official Orthodox New Testament is the Koine Greek version.  The New Testament was NOT written in Classical Greek, so to use a Classical Greek definition would be akin to using Old English definitions of words on a modern text.  And regardless of the definition used, I'm still troubled by Wheeler's unhealthy obsession with effeminacy.

Where else does one get the meaning of the Greek word from if not from classical culture.  I must be an idiot.
From the later Greek culture of the Eastern Roman Empire, not from Classical Greek.  If the shoe fits...
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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2004, 06:03:01 PM »

Quote
I have been in Orthodox settings for 30 years.  Orthodox denigrate the Old Testament.  Fact- I am sitting at a picnic with a retired Greek Orthodox bishop from Jerusalem.  he denigrates the OT as a bunch of bloodthirsty Jewish tales foreign to Christianity.  Oh Really?  This is my best example of what I Have been hearing in the last thirty years.

That bishop was obviously speaking beyond moderation and it speaks to his lack of knowledge, no to Orthodoxy.  Your overgeneralization is disturbing.  Just because Hitler was Catholic, does that mean that Catholicism denigrates Jews? Be careful with your overgeneralizations.

Quote
Next, the Orthodox denigrate classical learning.  Typical is the reponse of Theodore thinking that Malakos has sexual connotations which it doesn't.  If he read Classical literature, he wouldn't have answered the way he did.

Oh please. Almost all of the bishops of the Church until the fall of Constantinople were trained in the classics.  Orthodoxy holds the classical teachers up to a very high standard.


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« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2004, 08:01:39 PM »

Umm.....

Hi guys.

I haven't been on the internet much lately, but I wanted to comment on this thread.

I think Wheeler could be making some good points, if he weren't so intent on obscuring everything with his idiosyncratic polemical concerns.

WHEELER:  Please set out to argue carefully.  Of course effeminacy is a problem in our society and in many religious bodies.  There are many causes for this.  There has been a breakdown of traditional gender roles, etc.  But please do not overstate your case OR try to make generalized bashes against the EOs.  I think you'll find that those bashes could very easily be turned against you.

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« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2004, 08:05:34 PM »

Pan-Cretan???  That's hillarious!

So far I found this: http://www.pancretan.org/

From what I've read so far, they look mostly harmless.  Smiley Philanthropic, cultural.  Haven't seen anything about keeping the boys away from music and retail sales.
 Wink

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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2004, 10:21:56 AM »

I'm not sure how wise it is taking cues on manliness/manly virtues from the pagan Greco-Roman world, in particular Plato (whose "ideal" society btw. is a pre-cursor to Orwell's fictional "Oceana") who himself probably "played for both teams" to use a common euphemism.

Buried in what Wheeler is saying are some valid (if still controversial) points.  Unfortunately, it is just that - buried, by a writing style/approach, and other (less impressive, imho) content which only serves to undermine what is of value in what he has written.

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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2004, 10:53:21 AM »

But Wheeler's posts have certainly gotten the posting counts up again.  It was gettingt too quiet around here, maybe....  Grin

Then again ""Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain." --Schiller
 :-

Ebor

I like that, Ebor.
I haven't given a lot of thought to this disjointed thread other than to initially note WHEELER's quoting the OSB as a separate Orthodox translation when which it is just the NKJV (because that's the version the publisher Thomas Nelson owned and its use allowed the editors to quickly put something together). ALSO: to anyone who has even a passing familiarity with modern Greek will instantly note that "malakoi" is just the older word and origin of today's "+++¦+++¦+¦+¦-é" - a crude slang used either as an endearment (!) or an insult depending on tone and context. It means literally "masturbater" and connotes "being less than a man".
Given the pagan milieu of the early Church and sexual mores of the day, this whole discussion seems an interesting aside or little importance.

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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2004, 08:04:33 PM »

To the meaning of the term:
Socrates, as far as I can tell, first uses the term to describe men.

Aristotle gives the same context and expands on it.

I quote from a first century writer of either BC or AD.  He also uses the word in the same context as Socrates.  There is 400 years of the same use of the word.  

And finally, In the encyclopaedic article at wikipedia, I quote from an 1870 Greek English Lexicon.  I hope that is enough witness.  I don't understand the problem here in the meaning.


I am a convert from Roman Catholicism.  Three years ago I converted to the Orthodox church.  Since the age of 16, I have attended both Catholic and Orthodox services.  For the last twenty years, I have read the literture from both camps.  I have been trained in the reasoning approach and western mentality.

I have always sought ecumenism.  But reading Orthodox literature for the past 20 years and just joined Orthodox websites, I have come to realize the attacks upon Roman Catholicism that are persistent in this context:  If the Roman Catholic church said "Boo" the Orthodox would have to say the opposite, "AHHH".  If the Roman Catholic Church said the sky was yellow, The Orthodox church would say it is green.  If the Roman Catholic church said anything, the position of the Orthodox will always be, "That's not how us Orthodox would think and..." Condemn the RCC and take the opposite position.  I don't know why this is.  We can't even talk to each other.  It seems that the only position that the Orthodox Church has, is that the RCC has to keel over dead.

As a used to be Latin Christian, I am now forced to start thinking the "Orthodox" way what ever the hell that means.  Protestant thinking and RCC thinking is similar.  We understand each other terms and think the same.  

The Orthodox church, as far as I can tell, needs the rationality and the clearness of rationality and reasoning within the Roman Catholic church.  The Roman Catholic Church needs the patristic influence of the Orthodox church.  Why can't we get along?

Half my problem, is that I can't trust the bible put out by either the Orthodox or Catholic church.  What the heck is going on when the apostolic churches can't get a damn thing right.  I thought I was promised that the gates of Hell will  not prevail against the church but to see the mistranslations within Catholic and Orthodox bibles and the epidemic of effeminacy in all the churches is appalling.  Is Jesus a liar or are you making Him a liar?

I am a former Marine.  WE DON'T ACT LIKE THIS.  We have our **** together.  What is your problem?Huh??   Us Marines put our lifes on the line everyday.  Life and death stare us in the face.  We do something wrong, it means somebody dies.  Yet  is this the mentality of the Orthodox and Catholic church--they couldn't care less.  They don't preach anymore, don't see they have problems, refuse to acknowledge problems because they are to Hoighty toighty to recognize it.  They really don't care.  Both churches take some kind of head in sand approach to life.  Thank God, the US. Military doesn't have the same attitude  that apostolic clerics seem to have---we would've lost every battle.  Whatever happened to being professionals?  Whatever happened to duty and honor and righteiousness?

Are the apostolic churches damned and determined to make Jesus out to be a liar?

Because from this footsoldier's view---the apostolic churches are so incompetent they couldn't fight themselves out of wet toilet paper!!!!!!!
The comment about apostolic churches being incompetent.
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« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2004, 08:30:13 PM »

Half my problem, is that I can't trust the bible put out by either the Orthodox or Catholic church.  What the heck is going on when the apostolic churches can't get a damn thing right.  I thought I was promised that the gates of Hell will  not prevail against the church but...

...He never promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against you.
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« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2004, 09:18:46 PM »

"Because from this footsoldier's view---the apostolic churches are so incompetent they couldn't fight themselves out of wet toilet paper!!!!!!!"

And, with that comment, you are being warned. Stop attacking the Orthodox Church in such a disrespectful manner, or face banning.

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« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2004, 02:46:00 PM »

I will tone it down because I see I am riling a few folks.  I don't know where the complaint box is.  Even if there was, would problems presented be solved?

My criticisms are based on a continuing frustration with inaction.  We are losing our people, our people are learning things in the public schools and universities that are harmful and anti-Christian and there seems to be nothing done about it.

Furthermore, I understand one very important fact.  It was the activity and preaching of Christian Protestantism that set up this country.  They taught the people from the pulpit.  The dictum is "Culture defines Politics".  Christian preaching based on the scriptures defined this country and created the chance of liberty.

Today, What I See is that we are failing to teach the people scripture and those biblically based principles that will continue this form of government.  Without the active support of Christian churches teaching their people, we  are heading into tyranny in this country.

Do you not know the two dictums?

The whole point of the Republic of Plato, is that Socrates firmly believes in the dictum that government is a reflection of the people. As the people are slavish the government will be also. The government is made up of parts. The parts define the whole. The whole is only a reflection of the parts that make it up. As the individual is so is the state.

That is why Socrates in the Republic talked of the Kyklos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kyklos

As men, in the inner man can not control themselves, so the state can't control itself and becomes despotic.  The Soul needs to be formed.  If the soul is disordered, the state is disordered.  The state is only the reflection of the parts that make it up.  Sparta had “eunomia”  “Good Order” because their men were trained and hand “well-ordered” souls.  That is why the emphasis is on Virtue by all three, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle and by the scriptures and St. Paul.

Women have a need for safety and security. She is to get that from her husband---not from the state.

When women vote they pass this need into the state. Just like every speech now is about safety and security. Women tell what to do. More often than not, men are laxidaisical. Self-Government of the Greeks took on this habit of men because it was based on men and their mentality.  Not so Athens that was effeminate in nature. It became tyrannical.

This is very important. The characteristics of women are passing into the state. Aristotle said somewhere that women are natural slaves. Their character will pass into the state as tyranny---not freedom.

The Scriptures say the same thing. The government is only the reflection of the people.

Quote
Septuagint Book of Sirach (Scripture) “As the judge of the people is himself, so are his officers; and what manner of man the ruler of the city is, such are all they that dwell therein.”

Only men are truly free. God did not make women free. God says, "your urge will be to man" Man shall rule thee. Women are NOT "free" individuals.   God gave sovereignty to man.  Man named the animals, not women.

Woman suffrage is about abrogating what God has ordained.
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« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2004, 02:50:41 PM »


I think Wheeler could be making some good points, if he weren't so intent on obscuring everything with his idiosyncratic polemical concerns.
LatinTrad

What good points do you think are being made that are obscured by the bluster and bald assertions? That might make for a more profitable discussion, without excess verbiage.

It seems more like what ever the original poster does not do or like makes for "effeminacy". Why that person is somehow the Rule and Guide for all males has escaped me.

Ebor
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« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2004, 03:05:52 PM »

Quote
Only men are truly free. God did not make women free. God says, "your urge will be to man" Man shall rule thee. Women are NOT "free" individuals.  God gave sovereignty to man.  Man named the animals, not women.

I'll bet you thank God every day that you were born with a penis.
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« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2004, 03:11:36 PM »

Quote
Why that person is somehow the Rule and Guide for all males has escaped me.

I'm wondering if, perhaps, his own masculinity has been called into question so many times that he feels the need to assert it by basing what is masculine on his own likes and dislikes and finds Scriptural quotes (and oddly enough ancient Greek philosophy) to back it up.

Of course, the Devil himself can quote Scripture to suit his own needs, too.
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« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2004, 03:18:31 PM »

I will tone it down because I see I am riling a few folks.  I don't know where the complaint box is.

Some may be riled, others amused. You joined this Forum and proceeded to issued declarations of How Things Ought To Be.  You ask what seem to be rhetorical questions with you knowing the answers. You come across are pretty riled yourself.

Why should we accept your dictums?  Others disagree with your views.  I beg your pardon, but your "arguments" have not been convincing.  You have your opinions, but they are not the Law of the Universe any more then my views are.

Why should Plato's "Republic" be the Golden Mean of Society and Politics?  Age?  Culture?  Ancient Greece does not define the whole experience of Humanity.

Quote
That is why the emphasis is on Virtue by all three, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle and by the scriptures and St. Paul.

Seems to me like Ancient Greek "Virtue" and Christian Virtues are not necessarily identical; things like humility and compassion among others.

Quote
Women have a need for safety and security. She is to get that from her husband---not from the state.

There is not "Women" nor "Men" either.  There are billions of individuals each unique, with basic needs and wants that also have their own personal differences.

And what about single women?

Quote
The Scriptures say the same thing.

Where?  Could we have a citation, please?

What does "Free" mean to you? To do whatever you want?  To exercise free will?

And the quote in the KJV is,
"and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Genesis 3:16

Not that all males get to rule all females. It applies to marriage.  Then there are the words from the Epistles about what a husband is supposed to be like....

Why should Aristotle's opinion that women are "natural slaves" be accepted? He wasn't  infallible any more then Plato or Socrates.   Frankly, telling other people what they really are is presumptuous, to say the least.  And doesn't have much reality in it, imho.  
 
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« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2004, 03:34:06 PM »

I stated that there is a lot of effeminacy within the RCC especially the Roman Catholic Priests.

Someone wanted me to expand on this.

First, too much education and academia effeminizes men.  Pericles in his famous funeral speech where he talks of the glories of Athens says, that “We Athenians have education without effeminization”.  When one reads the educational treastises and books of Victorian and republican America, one also finds this idea within education.  I actually picked up an old book that said, “How can we educate without effeminization?”

The grand majority of Catholic priests went straight from high school to college to seminary to priesthood.  12 years of elementary schooling and then 6 years or more of higher education.  There is no point in between where the man has come into contact with reality, nature and society.  Academia is a false reality. The slang term for academia is an “Ivory Tower”.  Why?  Because it is a sheltered environment.  It is not real.   Socrates recognized this in the Republic.  The philosophers in training were to take a break in between and experience the rest of the world and work within it gaining common sense.  Academia and its environment do not impart common sense; only the natural world does.  That is why the scriptures ordain the agricultural life.  Aristotle also recognized this that too much education or constantly in academia leads to effeminacy.  In this process, there is no testing for manhood.

Second, soft lives lead to soft men.

Third, is the mentality.  The Roman Catholic mentality is based, of course, on the Latin mentality of total obedience to authority.  An example, a Roman tribune could order his whole legion over a cliff.  They would obey.  What Roman culture propounded was total obedience to authority.  When the Latin language supplanted the Greek language of Rome about the 4th century, it also brought in the Latin mentality to Christianity.

The Greek mentality is “I am obedient to the law but under no man”.  The emphasis is different.

In the 10th century, the Latin church made canon law stipulating that laymen could not unseat a bishop or clergy.  This was a further codification of the Latin mentality within Christianity in the West.  It dropped the Greek mentality and took up the Latin mentality.

The Christian tradition has always been that the faithful have the responsibility for the faith along with the clergy.  But when the clergy went wrong it was the duty of the faithful to throw “the bums out”.  

There are five (or three) Patriarchs of Constantinople on the bottom of the Black Sea with a mill stone tied to their necks.

The Latin mentality is rather effeminizing because one is not responsible anymore, somebody else is.  The Latin church inculturates effeminacy because noone can do anything anymore without the Pope.

In the Greek church, the Spartan mentality is still there in theory.  The people are also responsible for the faith.  The refusal of the people to adopt the Council of Florence is a sign of this mentality.  The Latin response to Vatican II is abject resignation—Rome has spoken, Causa finita.   Rome declared Vatican II the truth so all must obey.  There was no citizen input.  The faithful can not participate---they are reduced to being children.

That is why the ancient Doric Greeks created self-government.  They were obedient to the LAW not to a person.  The Law ruled not man.  This was the common tradition throughout Christianity.  When the language was changed so was the mentality.  God created man for self-government and to be self-governing.  Christianity is about this.  It needs the Greek mentality.  

The Roman Catholic Church is very effeminate in two respects.  One too much academia that leads to effeminate men.  Their soft living leads to soft men and the Latin mentality as a whole creates Christians who are not self-governing but children who have to rely on the clergy for everything and have no responsibility in the faith.
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« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2004, 03:36:10 PM »

Christianity is about this.  It needs the Greek mentality.  


Gee, and I was under the impression that Christ came to save all peoples and "in Christ, there is neither Greek nor Jew".

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« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2004, 04:38:00 PM »


Women have a need for safety and security. She is to get that from her husband---not from the state.



So my sister & I, and all the other single women who are living on there own and making it in this big bad world are what...?  



When women vote they pass this need into the state. Just like every speech now is about safety and security. Women tell what to do. More often than not, men are laxidaisical. Self-Government of the Greeks took on this habit of men because it was based on men and their mentality.  Not so Athens that was effeminate in nature. It became tyrannical.


I personally am not worried about safety & security, never really have been, unless you count driving through the bad part of DC... but then, any sane person would be REAL concerned then.  If your talking about financial security, I know MANY men who are deadbeats & their wives work their behinds off to take care of their kids.  In this day in age, having a man around doesn't guarentee either physical or financial security.  



This is very important. The characteristics of women are passing into the state. Aristotle said somewhere that women are natural slaves. Their character will pass into the state as tyranny---not freedom.


Obviously he never met my mother.  
And I've looked & looked, but can't seem to find that he ever had a wife, or daughters.  If he did, he would have known better.  


The Scriptures say the same thing. The government is only the reflection of the people. Only men are truly free. God did not make women free. God says, "your urge will be to man" Man shall rule thee. Women are NOT "free" individuals.   God gave sovereignty to man.  Man named the animals, not women.

God gave sovereignty to men, but they gave women brains & free will to help their men do the right thing.  If He hadn't, we'd be like puppies, and thank you very much, but I think that women are at a higher level than that.  & since we are designated to be "helpers" I think we Help when we smack our men up-side the head & tell them their being stupid.



Woman suffrage is about abrogating what God has ordained.


Get Bent.
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Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
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« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2004, 07:56:29 PM »

Nature abhors a vacuum, Ebor.  It's time somebody stood up and preached the truth.  Somebody has to do it.  Silence and ignorance is not an excuse.

The idea and concept of virtues is an Homeric/Classical idea.  Just to let you know  What are the first three letters of the word "Virtue".  V-I-R.  Vir is the Latin word for man.  Virtue means "To be a man".

St. Peter says to supplement Faith with Arete.  Arete is the Greek word for Virtue.    St. Peter has virtue as next to  importance with Faith.  That is why being effeminate is a barrier to heaven.  Being effeminate is what got Adam thrown out of heaven.

I quote again from the Septuagint:

Quote
Wisdom 8.7; "And if a man love righteousness, her labours are virtues: for she teacheth temperance and prudence, righteousness and manliness: which are such things, as men can have nothing more profitable in their life"

Now, in why i am so frustrated, if St. Peter said that faith must be supplemented with virtue, Where is this training going on anywhere in the young life of an apostolic Christian boy?  Can I walk into any Orthodox church and ask a boy of 14 what are the four basic virtues---Could he tell me?  How can a boy be a man without knowing the virtues that make it possible to be a man?

My personal experience in the two Orthodox churches and the Catholic churches just in Battle Creek Michigan, I can tell you that this knowledge is nowhere to be found.

As for the efficacy of reading Plato, Socrates, Homer, and Aristotle:  the wisdom of this world says, we don't need to read from Old Dead White European males.  They're dead and what happened 2500 years ago is not pertinent for today.

What does the wisdom of God say:  Book of Sirach, Septuagint, Scripture, 39.1-2

Quote
"But he that giveth his mind to the law of the most High, and is occupied in the meditation thereof, will seek out the wisdom of the all the ancients, and be occupied with prophecies. (2) He will keep the sayings of the renowned men; and where subtil parables are, he will be there also."
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The wisdom of God is mightier than the wisdom of this world.  As for me and my household, I will follow the Lord my God who created the Heavens and the Earth.
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Iron sharpens Iron.
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