Author Topic: Vatican City  (Read 1765 times)

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Offline JamesRottnek

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Vatican City
« on: January 21, 2012, 08:54:18 PM »
In Hopko's list of points (I would have put this there, but it isn't nearly as theological an issue as the others in that thread), he mentions the Pope having to give up Vatican City.  Does anyone actually think this would be needed for union?  I am having trouble understanding why the Pope being the ruler of an incredibly small city-state is problematic?
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Offline biro

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2012, 09:01:34 PM »
I've said it before, I'll say it again: it's the size of a U.S. state university, contains a couple hundred elderly religious, and only a few dozen security guards have handguns. It's like being scared of the Parks Maintenance workers in D.C.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2012, 10:20:44 PM »
I've said it before, I'll say it again: it's the size of a U.S. state university, contains a couple hundred elderly religious, and only a few dozen security guards have handguns. It's like being scared of the Parks Maintenance workers in D.C.

There be powerful sorcery there.

Offline biro

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2012, 10:30:03 PM »
No.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2012, 10:32:25 PM »
Is there some conflict with the pope being a spiritual leader as well as the head of state for the Vatican?  Though significantly smaller, isn't His All Holiness, Patriarch VARTHOLOMAIOS I, head of the Phanar?
Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2012, 10:37:49 PM »
I think even if we met all of the criteria of a list of changes required of us to be orthodox in the eyes of the Eastern Orthodox, there would just be a whole slew of other things added to the list, basically making it impossible for a resumption of communion to ever take place. It would be sort of like the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2012, 10:43:16 PM »
I think even if we met all of the criteria of a list of changes required of us to be orthodox in the eyes of the Eastern Orthodox, there would just be a whole slew of other things added to the list, basically making it impossible for a resumption of communion to ever take place.

Maybe the forthcoming Ecumenical Council could make things official  8)


Quote
It would be sort of like the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.

It's more like a relationship where you love the other person more each day.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2012, 10:46:17 PM »
It's more like a relationship where you love the other person more each day.
That's not the way other Eastern Orthodox have portrayed theosis recently on the forum, but rather that the faithful in heaven will draw ever closer and united to God's energies (theosis), but that there is a part of God that will be forever hidden from us and unknowable, known as His "essence."

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2012, 10:48:16 PM »
It's more like a relationship where you love the other person more each day.
the faithful in heaven will draw ever closer and united to God's energies (theosis), but that there is a part of God that will be forever hidden from us and unknowable, known as His "essence."

This is accurate, so far as I know. :)

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2012, 10:52:27 PM »
In Hopko's list of points (I would have put this there, but it isn't nearly as theological an issue as the others in that thread), he mentions the Pope having to give up Vatican City.  Does anyone actually think this would be needed for union?  I am having trouble understanding why the Pope being the ruler of an incredibly small city-state is problematic?

Is there an online/transcript/text copy of the list? I've not seen it...

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2012, 10:54:13 PM »
I really have a hard time believing that. I believe that everything that God is we will know and be in perfect union with in heaven. I have a hard time reconciling the Eastern Orthodox teaching of theosis with not only everything I know since I've been Catholic, but everything I know from my entire life of being a Christian. I'm trying to understand it or keep an open mind and think that perhaps we have the same belief about God between our two Churches but just phrase it differently, but the more I hear about theosis the more disturbing it is to me. How can one be fully in the presence of God and fully in union with God in heaven and yet still forever remain separated from part of him? Would separation from God not be hell, or at the very least some other spiritual existence other than heaven?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2012, 11:12:22 PM »
I think even if we met all of the criteria of a list of changes required of us to be orthodox in the eyes of the Eastern Orthodox, there would just be a whole slew of other things added to the list, basically making it impossible for a resumption of communion to ever take place. It would be sort of like the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.
No, we have quite a definite list of things.  It's the kissy face ecumenists that ya'll hob knob with that have an amorphous list.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2012, 11:13:18 PM »
the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.
God is the destination.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2012, 11:18:48 PM »
No.

Mons Vaticanus = the Hill of Sorcerers

and

Castelgandolfo  =  Gandalf's Castle.

There is serious sorcery in the basement.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2012, 11:23:02 PM »
It's more like a relationship where you love the other person more each day.
That's not the way other Eastern Orthodox have portrayed theosis recently on the forum, but rather that the faithful in heaven will draw ever closer and united to God's energies (theosis), but that there is a part of God that will be forever hidden from us and unknowable, known as His "essence."

Isn't this the teaching of one of the great Doctors of the Catholic Church, Saint Basil the Great?

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/basil234.html
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 11:27:42 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2012, 11:24:46 PM »
I've said it before, I'll say it again: it's the size of a U.S. state university, contains a couple hundred elderly religious, and only a few dozen security guards have handguns. It's like being scared of the Parks Maintenance workers in D.C.
The Parks maintenance doesn't have diplomatic and sovereign immunity AFAIK.

On the one had we are told that the Vatican is an inoccous bunch of old men, and then we are told on the other hand that we need the Vatican's prestige and authority on the world stage.  Stalin's successors found out that the pope in the Vatican has quite a few legions.

The conventional wisdom is that the Vatican has among the best, if not the best, intelligence services in the world.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 11:25:05 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2012, 12:06:50 AM »
the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.
God is the destination.
A destination which we never reach since God's essence remains forever hidden and unreachable.

Offline biro

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2012, 12:21:30 AM »
No.

Mons Vaticanus = the Hill of Sorcerers

and

Castelgandolfo  =  Gandalf's Castle.

There is serious sorcery in the basement.

Well, you called me a monkey, so I know what to expect from you.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2012, 12:31:16 AM »
Is this distinction still going to bother you when you are with God, Wyatt? If not, then why does it bother you now?

the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.
God is the destination.
A destination which we never reach since God's essence remains forever hidden and unreachable.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2012, 12:38:38 AM »
Is this distinction still going to bother you when you are with God, Wyatt? If not, then why does it bother you now?

the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.
God is the destination.
A destination which we never reach since God's essence remains forever hidden and unreachable.
Not at all, but that is because I do not believe the distinction exists.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2012, 12:47:30 AM »
No.

Mons Vaticanus = the Hill of Sorcerers

and

Castelgandolfo  =  Gandalf's Castle.

There is serious sorcery in the basement.

Well, you called me a monkey, so I know what to expect from you.

I believe I did and I believe I was responding to something from you where I am not sure if you are calling me an idiot, an incompetent or an untruthful person?

Quote from: Irish Hermit
The teaching of the Catholic belief has been defined by the Pope.  See message 292.  I do at least afford him the courtesy of believing he is knowledgeable about his own belief system.   And I am not going to fudge it.  I know Roman Catholic belief somewhat thanks to passing through their primary, secondary and tertiary institutions.

...such as The College of Stuff You Heard Somewhere from Somebody.


Whatever! What an insolent little monkey...  :laugh:


Offline dzheremi

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2012, 12:48:46 AM »
I see. I feel the same way about the supposed primacy of your pope, so I guess I can relate to that.

Is this distinction still going to bother you when you are with God, Wyatt? If not, then why does it bother you now?

the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.
God is the destination.
A destination which we never reach since God's essence remains forever hidden and unreachable.
Not at all, but that is because I do not believe the distinction exists.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2012, 12:52:48 AM »
It's more like a relationship where you love the other person more each day.
That's not the way other Eastern Orthodox have portrayed theosis recently on the forum, but rather that the faithful in heaven will draw ever closer and united to God's energies (theosis), but that there is a part of God that will be forever hidden from us and unknowable, known as His "essence."

Isn't this the teaching of one of the great Doctors of the Catholic Church, Saint Basil the Great?

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/basil234.html
I looked through the link you provided, but where exactly does St. Basil teach, in the link provided or anywhere for that matter, that the essence of God will remain veiled and unknowable even in heaven?

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2012, 12:56:16 AM »
No.

Mons Vaticanus = the Hill of Sorcerers

Actually The Hill of the Seers/Prophets. Its cognate with the Irish fáith which means the same thing.

Offline Shiny

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2012, 12:57:30 AM »
nvm
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 12:57:48 AM by Achronos »
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2012, 12:58:23 AM »
I see. I feel the same way about the supposed primacy of your pope, so I guess I can relate to that.

Is this distinction still going to bother you when you are with God, Wyatt? If not, then why does it bother you now?

the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.
God is the destination.
A destination which we never reach since God's essence remains forever hidden and unreachable.
Not at all, but that is because I do not believe the distinction exists.
Fair enough...agree to disagree I suppose.

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2012, 01:03:03 AM »
It's more like a relationship where you love the other person more each day.
That's not the way other Eastern Orthodox have portrayed theosis recently on the forum, but rather that the faithful in heaven will draw ever closer and united to God's energies (theosis), but that there is a part of God that will be forever hidden from us and unknowable, known as His "essence."

Isn't this the teaching of one of the great Doctors of the Catholic Church, Saint Basil the Great?

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/basil234.html
I looked through the link you provided, but where exactly does St. Basil teach, in the link provided or anywhere for that matter, that the essence of God will remain veiled and unknowable even in heaven?
some people don't deserve our attention. Especially when they are disrespectful; that goes for everyone.
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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2012, 11:58:03 PM »
In Hopko's list of points (I would have put this there, but it isn't nearly as theological an issue as the others in that thread), he mentions the Pope having to give up Vatican City.  Does anyone actually think this would be needed for union?  I am having trouble understanding why the Pope being the ruler of an incredibly small city-state is problematic?

I would say the Eastern Orthodox consider the seat of the Church of Rome to be vacant since Pat. Bartholomew is the first among equals.  Think about this;  everyone assumes that the Roman Catholic Church is indeed the same church that left the Christian community.  One might look at this "unity" as bringing in Episcopalian churches into western rite orthodoxy.  There isn't a Rome to re-unite with because that Rome was burnt to the ground and had salt poured upon it so that it may never be fertile ago with their own deviations from the faith passed down from the 7 ecumenical councils.
Just a piece to think of, playing devil's advocate here.
Father Ambrose, what is that qoute you often provide for me about this issue?

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2012, 12:48:19 AM »
.Father Ambrose, what is that qoute you often provide for me about this issue?

Not sure.   :laugh:

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2012, 01:47:30 AM »
It would be sort of like the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.
Better than staring at a static emanation of created glory for a quadrillion quadrillion infinities.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 01:48:16 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2012, 01:52:59 AM »
I think even if we met all of the criteria of a list of changes required of us to be orthodox in the eyes of the Eastern Orthodox, there would just be a whole slew of other things added to the list, basically making it impossible for a resumption of communion to ever take place. It would be sort of like the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.

haha...snarky I like it...

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2012, 02:18:52 AM »
I think even if we met all of the criteria of a list of changes required of us to be orthodox in the eyes of the Eastern Orthodox, there would just be a whole slew of other things added to the list, basically making it impossible for a resumption of communion to ever take place. It would be sort of like the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.

haha...snarky I like it...

Yes, we have a secret list with all the real charges....  not to be revealed until 2090. :laugh:

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2012, 11:49:07 AM »
It would be sort of like the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.
Better than staring at a static emanation of created glory for a quadrillion quadrillion infinities.
"Quadrillion quadrillion" implies time, which doesn't exist in eternity.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2012, 12:31:12 PM »
I think that if the only thing stooping Rome from coming back to the Church was Vatican City, it would not be an issue.

Isn't the head of state for Mt. Athos the EP afterall? Granted, I doubt the EP has intelligence services....

PP
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Offline stanley123

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2012, 01:09:30 PM »
No, we have quite a definite list of things. 
Is that list posted somewhere so we can see what is required for a union to take place? Or is it a secret?
BTW, there was floated a proposal in a recent book by a Ukranian Greek Catholic, to break up the Roman Church into various patriarchates along the Byzantine model. There would be a Patriarch of North America, a Patriarch of South America, a Patriarch of the Orient, a Patriarch of Africa, and the Pope would be the Patriarch of Europe. In this scenario, the RC Patriarchs would be more or less of equal status, except that the Patriarch of Europe would hold primacy of honor.

Offline biro

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2012, 01:16:17 PM »
Quote from: Irish Hermit
Yes, we have a secret list with all the real charges....  not to be revealed until 2090. :laugh:

Cue theme from Star Trek

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2012, 01:43:20 PM »
No, we have quite a definite list of things. 
Is that list posted somewhere so we can see what is required for a union to take place? Or is it a secret?
BTW, there was floated a proposal in a recent book by a Ukranian Greek Catholic, to break up the Roman Church into various patriarchates along the Byzantine model. There would be a Patriarch of North America, a Patriarch of South America, a Patriarch of the Orient, a Patriarch of Africa, and the Pope would be the Patriarch of Europe. In this scenario, the RC Patriarchs would be more or less of equal status, except that the Patriarch of Europe would hold primacy of honor.
There is a system already like that, called Orthodoxy a.k.a. the original set up.

PP
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Offline biro

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2012, 01:50:07 PM »
I wonder if there could ever be the alteration of status into a special district, like Washington D.C. is in the U.S. That way, Vatican City could still have its distinct identity, while not being a completely separate country.

Also- has anybody here ever visited Vatican City, and if so, do you have pictures to post?  :) Thanks.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2012, 01:53:53 PM »
I wonder if there could ever be the alteration of status into a special district, like Washington D.C. is in the U.S. That way, Vatican City could still have its distinct identity, while not being a completely separate country.

Also- has anybody here ever visited Vatican City, and if so, do you have pictures to post?  :) Thanks.
I bet its lovely. I'd love to see it :)

PP
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Gregory the Great

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2012, 03:59:20 PM »
I think that if the only thing stooping Rome from coming back to the Church was Vatican City, it would not be an issue.

Isn't the head of state for Mt. Athos the EP afterall? Granted, I doubt the EP has intelligence services....

PP

No.  The supreme civil authority for the Holy Mountain is the State of Greece.

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Athos/General/LegalStatus.html

There could be dire consequences for the EP if he claimed to be a head of state.  He is a Turk by nationality and I imagine that the Turks would put him on trial in a flash for claiming to be the head of a foreign state!   

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2012, 04:07:59 PM »
No, we have quite a definite list of things. 
Is that list posted somewhere so we can see what is required for a union to take place? Or is it a secret?
BTW, there was floated a proposal in a recent book by a Ukranian Greek Catholic, to break up the Roman Church into various patriarchates along the Byzantine model. There would be a Patriarch of North America, a Patriarch of South America, a Patriarch of the Orient, a Patriarch of Africa, and the Pope would be the Patriarch of Europe. In this scenario, the RC Patriarchs would be more or less of equal status, except that the Patriarch of Europe would hold primacy of honor.

When the Pope was yet Joseph Ratzinger  he pointed out the need to disentangle the confusion between the patriarchal and primatial roles of the bishop of Rome and to break up the Latin patriarchate, replacing it with a number of ""patriarchal areas," that is, regions with an autonomy similar to that of the ancient patriarchates, but under the direction of the episcopal conferences.


In an essay entitled "Primacy and Episcopacy," Ratzinger developed the theme
at greater length:

"The image of a centralized state which the Catholic church presented right up to the council
 does not flow only from the Petrine office, but from its strict amalgamation with the patriarchal function which grew ever
stronger in the course of history and which fell to the bishop of Rome for the whole of Latin Christendom. The uniform canon
law, the uniform liturgy, the uniform appointment of bishops by the Roman centre: all these are things which are not
necessarily part of the primacy but result from the close union of the two offices. For that reason, the task to consider
for the future will be to distinguish again and more clearly between the proper function of the successor of Peter and the
patriarchal office and, where necessary, to create new patriarchates and to detach them from the Latin church. To
embrace unity with the pope would then no longer mean being incorporated into a uniform administration, but only
being inserted into a unity of faith and communion, in which the pope is acknowledged to have the power to give
binding interpretations of the revelation given in Christ whose authority is accepted whenever it is given in
definitive form."


After exploring the ecumenical implications of this vision, Ratzinger concluded:

"Finally, in the not too distant future one could consider whether the churches of
Asia and Africa, like those of the East, should not present their own forms as autonomous* 'patriarchates'
or 'great churches' or whatever such ecclesiae in the Ecclesia might be called in the future."


Playing the optimist, I hope that this is the beginning of a long-term plan to bring these ideas quietly into reality, without causing alarm to the "hawks" and ultramontanists in the Roman Catholic Church.

* It is worth noticing that the Pope refers to these future Patriarchates as merely "autonomous."  In other words he plans to keep them in submission to Rome and won't give them autocephaly.  They will be of a lesser status than Orthodox Patriarchates.


Offline Peter J

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2012, 09:51:28 PM »
Hi all. I just read this thread for the first time.

BTW, there was floated a proposal in a recent book by a Ukranian Greek Catholic, to break up the Roman Church into various patriarchates along the Byzantine model. There would be a Patriarch of North America, a Patriarch of South America, a Patriarch of the Orient, a Patriarch of Africa, and the Pope would be the Patriarch of Europe. In this scenario, the RC Patriarchs would be more or less of equal status, except that the Patriarch of Europe would hold primacy of honor.[/size]

When the Pope was yet Joseph Ratzinger  he pointed out the need to disentangle the confusion between the patriarchal and primatial roles of the bishop of Rome and to break up the Latin patriarchate, replacing it with a number of ""patriarchal areas," that is, regions with an autonomy similar to that of the ancient patriarchates, but under the direction of the episcopal conferences.

That I was aware of, although the book Stanley mentioned is news to me.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 09:51:54 PM by Peter J »
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Peter J

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2012, 09:52:55 PM »
I think even if we met all of the criteria of a list of changes required of us to be orthodox in the eyes of the Eastern Orthodox, there would just be a whole slew of other things added to the list, basically making it impossible for a resumption of communion to ever take place. It would be sort of like the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.

You've really lost your liking for Eastern Orthodoxy, huh?
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Vatican City
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2012, 01:38:11 AM »
I think even if we met all of the criteria of a list of changes required of us to be orthodox in the eyes of the Eastern Orthodox, there would just be a whole slew of other things added to the list, basically making it impossible for a resumption of communion to ever take place. It would be sort of like the Eastern Orthodox concept of theosis...a never-ending train ride but no destination.

You've really lost your liking for Eastern Orthodoxy, huh?
I find some of the common attitudes amongst the Eastern Orthodox to be troubling.