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Author Topic: Show off your Guns!  (Read 17922 times) Average Rating: 0
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #315 on: July 23, 2012, 05:18:36 PM »

I wonder how your shotguns would respond to that:


As I asked you earlier, either on this thread or on another: Do you have anything of real substance to contribute to this discussion? So far all you've done is attempt to horrify us with absurd images.
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« Reply #316 on: July 23, 2012, 05:25:44 PM »

As far as i'm concerned, everything else should be reserved for military and LEO's.
Like the Chinese did at Tianammen Square?

If the US military decided to take on the civilian population, they would win every time. They are highly trained killing machines with the most sophisticated weaponology known to man that can be swiftly executed by air, land and sea. Thinking that a few million people armed with assault rifles will change any of that is simply delusion.

Which is why the National Guard exists, but people seem to have forgotten that.  They are to protect their individual state.
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« Reply #317 on: July 23, 2012, 05:27:22 PM »

I wonder how your shotguns would respond to that:



Atomic weaponry is ok, but not guns?  Huh
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« Reply #318 on: July 23, 2012, 05:28:58 PM »

Atomic weaponry is ok, but not guns?  Huh

One of your arguments for guns is that they would help you to fight the government it they attacked you. I wonder how would they help you to deal with a nuclear launch.
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« Reply #319 on: July 23, 2012, 05:33:22 PM »

I wonder how your shotguns would respond to that:



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« Reply #320 on: July 23, 2012, 05:36:48 PM »

Hmm...




“A gun is psychologically a penis-substitute and a symbol of power: the age-range of toy-shop clientele begins at about six or seven, rises sharply just before puberty and declines soon after the discovery of the phallus and its promise of power. From then on, guns are for kids and for the effete freaks and misfits who must seek psycho-orgasmic relief by shooting pheasants.”
― Adam Hall, The Quiller Memorandum

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/75699-a-gun-is-psychologically-a-penis-substitute-and-a-symbol-of

I'm still shocked that somebody in Poland which was taken by the Nazi's in what (27 or so days?) would be against firearms.

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« Reply #321 on: July 23, 2012, 05:38:17 PM »

Atomic weaponry is ok, but not guns?  Huh

One of your arguments for guns is that they would help you to fight the government it they attacked you. I wonder how would they help you to deal with a nuclear launch.

So, you think the government would bomb its own backyard, killing them as well, or at the very least, making the area uninhabitable and the areas where the fallout travels, which defeats the entire purpose of engaging in domestic warfare in the first place?  Not to mention, if they did this, the entire nation would rise against them and yes, guns would certainly come in handy at that point.
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« Reply #322 on: July 23, 2012, 05:39:13 PM »

Atomic weaponry is ok, but not guns?  Huh

One of your arguments for guns is that they would help you to fight the government it they attacked you. I wonder how would they help you to deal with a nuclear launch.

The government would not attack its own people with nukes and if it did, it would destroy itself.   A government is nothing without the people behind it.   A government would however attack its people through means of intimidation, detainment, and threat.


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« Reply #323 on: July 23, 2012, 05:40:57 PM »

As far as i'm concerned, everything else should be reserved for military and LEO's.
Like the Chinese did at Tianammen Square?

If the US military decided to take on the civilian population, they would win every time. They are highly trained killing machines with the most sophisticated weaponology known to man that can be swiftly executed by air, land and sea. Thinking that a few million people armed with assault rifles will change any of that is simply delusion.

Which is why the National Guard exists, but people seem to have forgotten that.  They are to protect their individual state.

Hmm I'm pretty sure the President can give the order to the National Guard at the federal level to "suppress insurrection" in a given state.

Quote
Interference with State and Federal law.
 The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States

Regardless of this, the point is that even with assault rifles, civilians stand no chance against against the government if they decided to attack us.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 05:41:45 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
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« Reply #324 on: July 23, 2012, 05:42:08 PM »

Atomic weaponry is ok, but not guns?  Huh

One of your arguments for guns is that they would help you to fight the government it they attacked you. I wonder how would they help you to deal with a nuclear launch.

The government would not attack its own people with nukes and if it did, it would destroy itself.   A government is nothing without the people behind it.   A government would however attack its people through means of intimidation, detainment, and threat.




If the government really did detach from the rails, it would use conventional weapons (guns, grenades, bombs and missiles), but to think it would use what we know as NBC tactics is silly.  There is no point in winning a battle if you kill yourself.  
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« Reply #325 on: July 23, 2012, 05:42:22 PM »

As far as i'm concerned, everything else should be reserved for military and LEO's.
Like the Chinese did at Tianammen Square?

If the US military decided to take on the civilian population, they would win every time. They are highly trained killing machines with the most sophisticated weaponology known to man that can be swiftly executed by air, land and sea. Thinking that a few million people armed with assault rifles will change any of that is simply delusion.

Tell it to the Vietnamese.

Are you assuming that there wouldn't be large numbers of desertions by military personnel after receiving the illegal orders to attack American civilians?

Perhaps you should reconsider who actually comprises the American armed forces and where these folks come from. You'd actually be trying to get them to attack their own families.

Well, the concern about hurting their own citizens didn't stop the tanks from rolling through Tiananmen. In this case, we would be relying upon the good conscience of the soldiers to not carry out the orders of their superiors, which has nothing to do with the guns that we as civilians possess. Personal safety (fearing our guns) is not a concern for the military, as most orders can be carried out with little or no risk to the soldier (aircraft, UAV, surface to air missiles, etc.) Even with defections, there will always be the faithful who carry out orders, and the rest wouldn't stand a chance (it just takes one guy with his finger on the nuclear buttons, after all). Our best bet would be to hope that other countries would come to our protection if our own government turned against us.

The US military has generally been pretty good about ignoring guerrilla warfare, which is especially interesting seeing as it was what gave us many of our initial leg ups in our revolution.  In any initial battles the government forces would destroy any and all visible opposition.  After that, I tend to give the US military about 10 years.  Afghanistan is going a little long, but with Vietnam and Iraq I see a decade being a good expiration date.  The day to day bombings and small ambushes take their toll.  In addition, public opinion hurts our war efforts.  What happens when it is American citizens dying every day?  Bystanders, soldiers, collaborators, guerrillas, etc?  Not to mention, the families of government officials and soldiers would not be protected by two large oceans.  The enemy would be in their back yard.

Honestly, I think the US government wants to fight a guerrilla war on US soil about as much as I do...that is, not at all!  I personally think within the next couple decades we'll see a 'revolution' at the ballot box before we see one in the streets.  It's only a matter of time before there is a Tea Party / OWS type group that says "screw it" to both parties.

EDIT - My intent with the TP/OWS comment is not to be political, just looking at examples of non-violent movements we have had in the US in an historical context.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 05:44:00 PM by vamrat » Logged
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« Reply #326 on: July 23, 2012, 05:43:02 PM »

As far as i'm concerned, everything else should be reserved for military and LEO's.
Like the Chinese did at Tianammen Square?

If the US military decided to take on the civilian population, they would win every time. They are highly trained killing machines with the most sophisticated weaponology known to man that can be swiftly executed by air, land and sea. Thinking that a few million people armed with assault rifles will change any of that is simply delusion.

Which is why the National Guard exists, but people seem to have forgotten that.  They are to protect their individual state.

Hmm I'm pretty sure the President can give the order to the National Guard at the federal level to "suppress insurrection" in a given state.

Quote
Interference with State and Federal law.
 The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States

Regardless of this, the point is that even with assault rifles, civilians stand no chance against against the government if they decided to attack us.



I do not agree.

Here in Texas there are people that have tank stoppers, artillery, and machine guns.  Also I believe our military for the most part would not turn on its people.

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« Reply #327 on: July 23, 2012, 05:43:55 PM »

Heh
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« Reply #328 on: July 23, 2012, 05:46:03 PM »

As far as i'm concerned, everything else should be reserved for military and LEO's.
Like the Chinese did at Tianammen Square?

If the US military decided to take on the civilian population, they would win every time. They are highly trained killing machines with the most sophisticated weaponology known to man that can be swiftly executed by air, land and sea. Thinking that a few million people armed with assault rifles will change any of that is simply delusion.

Which is why the National Guard exists, but people seem to have forgotten that.  They are to protect their individual state.

Hmm I'm pretty sure the President can give the order to the National Guard at the federal level to "suppress insurrection" in a given state.

Quote
Interference with State and Federal law.
 The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States

Regardless of this, the point is that even with assault rifles, civilians stand no chance against against the government if they decided to attack us.



I do not agree.

Here in Texas there are people that have tank stoppers, artillery, and machine guns.  Also I believe our military for the most part would not turn on its people.



Those are no match for Predator drones. Like I said, the US military is better trained, better organized, and better equipped at every level. So if you don't think our military would turn on us, and if it wouldn't make any difference even if they did, then why do we as civilians need to own assault rifles other than because they look cool?

I don't have to remind people that this isn't the civil war era...
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 05:46:32 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
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« Reply #329 on: July 23, 2012, 05:47:48 PM »

As far as i'm concerned, everything else should be reserved for military and LEO's.
Like the Chinese did at Tianammen Square?

If the US military decided to take on the civilian population, they would win every time. They are highly trained killing machines with the most sophisticated weaponology known to man that can be swiftly executed by air, land and sea. Thinking that a few million people armed with assault rifles will change any of that is simply delusion.

Which is why the National Guard exists, but people seem to have forgotten that.  They are to protect their individual state.

Hmm I'm pretty sure the President can give the order to the National Guard at the federal level to "suppress insurrection" in a given state.

Quote
Interference with State and Federal law.
 The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States

Regardless of this, the point is that even with assault rifles, civilians stand no chance against against the government if they decided to attack us.



The power of the National Guard falls under the office of that states Governor, unless activated under Title 10.  but you have to ask yourself if anything like this really happened, would your neighbor Bob do what a crazed government told him to do, or protect his own neighborhood, with all the weapons at the Guards disposal.

I think you would be surprised at what normal everyday citizens can do, especially considering how many of them have had previous military training.
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« Reply #330 on: July 23, 2012, 05:48:52 PM »

As far as i'm concerned, everything else should be reserved for military and LEO's.
Like the Chinese did at Tianammen Square?

If the US military decided to take on the civilian population, they would win every time. They are highly trained killing machines with the most sophisticated weaponology known to man that can be swiftly executed by air, land and sea. Thinking that a few million people armed with assault rifles will change any of that is simply delusion.

I don't know. These guys,




Were run out of Afghanistan in humiliation by these guys.



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« Reply #331 on: July 23, 2012, 05:53:56 PM »

As far as i'm concerned, everything else should be reserved for military and LEO's.
Like the Chinese did at Tianammen Square?

If the US military decided to take on the civilian population, they would win every time. They are highly trained killing machines with the most sophisticated weaponology known to man that can be swiftly executed by air, land and sea. Thinking that a few million people armed with assault rifles will change any of that is simply delusion.

Which is why the National Guard exists, but people seem to have forgotten that.  They are to protect their individual state.

Hmm I'm pretty sure the President can give the order to the National Guard at the federal level to "suppress insurrection" in a given state.

Quote
Interference with State and Federal law.
 The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States

Regardless of this, the point is that even with assault rifles, civilians stand no chance against against the government if they decided to attack us.



I do not agree.

Here in Texas there are people that have tank stoppers, artillery, and machine guns.  Also I believe our military for the most part would not turn on its people.



Those are no match for Predator drones. Like I said, the US military is better trained, better organized, and better equipped at every level. So if you don't think our military would turn on us, and if it wouldn't make any difference even if they did, then why do we as civilians need to own assault rifles other than because they look cool?

I don't have to remind people that this isn't the civil war era...

Ask MK what happened in his country in 1939.

I hate to differ though, I do believe that a tank stopper could take down a predator drone....
I don't think many people realize how armed some Americans are -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXIslOxMfGA  (The fun begins at 5:05)
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« Reply #332 on: July 23, 2012, 05:58:04 PM »

Ask MK what happened in his country in 1939.

Germans and Russians took it over.
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« Reply #333 on: July 23, 2012, 06:02:23 PM »

As far as i'm concerned, everything else should be reserved for military and LEO's.
Like the Chinese did at Tianammen Square?

If the US military decided to take on the civilian population, they would win every time. They are highly trained killing machines with the most sophisticated weaponology known to man that can be swiftly executed by air, land and sea. Thinking that a few million people armed with assault rifles will change any of that is simply delusion.

Which is why the National Guard exists, but people seem to have forgotten that.  They are to protect their individual state.

Hmm I'm pretty sure the President can give the order to the National Guard at the federal level to "suppress insurrection" in a given state.

Quote
Interference with State and Federal law.
 The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States

Regardless of this, the point is that even with assault rifles, civilians stand no chance against against the government if they decided to attack us.



I do not agree.

Here in Texas there are people that have tank stoppers, artillery, and machine guns.  Also I believe our military for the most part would not turn on its people.



Those are no match for Predator drones. Like I said, the US military is better trained, better organized, and better equipped at every level. So if you don't think our military would turn on us, and if it wouldn't make any difference even if they did, then why do we as civilians need to own assault rifles other than because they look cool?

I don't have to remind people that this isn't the civil war era...

Ask MK what happened in his country in 1939.

I hate to differ though, I do believe that a tank stopper could take down a predator drone....
I don't think many people realize how armed some Americans are -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXIslOxMfGA  (The fun begins at 5:05)

America is far too high tech for any serious worries.  The only way to stop it would be shutting down the entire grid.  If they didn’t, every hacker in the nation would be crippling everything aimed at the citizens.  The government wouldn’t have a chance.  Drones would be falling from the sky and getting taken over by the citizens to return them in force to their origin.  Anyone who really things the government could attack the citizens in the US and win are fooling themselves.  At least until they take away our defenses.
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« Reply #334 on: July 23, 2012, 06:03:42 PM »

Ask MK what happened in his country in 1939.

Germans and Russians took it over.

The Polish should have been heavily armed and had militia, I don't doubt the bravery of Polish men, but they didn't have much to fight with.  If they had assault rifles that could penetrate tank armour, bazookas, or even explosive materials, history may have been changed.   This is a dangerous world we live in...   Countries do invade each other.  The USA has almost all of its troops overseas, yet no country would dare invade because they'd be getting picked off from every direction.   Just check the video I posted above.   There are people here with that kind of firepower, more than most would think.
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« Reply #335 on: July 23, 2012, 06:06:47 PM »

As far as i'm concerned, everything else should be reserved for military and LEO's.
Like the Chinese did at Tianammen Square?

If the US military decided to take on the civilian population, they would win every time. They are highly trained killing machines with the most sophisticated weaponology known to man that can be swiftly executed by air, land and sea. Thinking that a few million people armed with assault rifles will change any of that is simply delusion.

Which is why the National Guard exists, but people seem to have forgotten that.  They are to protect their individual state.

Hmm I'm pretty sure the President can give the order to the National Guard at the federal level to "suppress insurrection" in a given state.

Quote
Interference with State and Federal law.
 The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States

Regardless of this, the point is that even with assault rifles, civilians stand no chance against against the government if they decided to attack us.



I do not agree.

Here in Texas there are people that have tank stoppers, artillery, and machine guns.  Also I believe our military for the most part would not turn on its people.



Those are no match for Predator drones. Like I said, the US military is better trained, better organized, and better equipped at every level. So if you don't think our military would turn on us, and if it wouldn't make any difference even if they did, then why do we as civilians need to own assault rifles other than because they look cool?

I don't have to remind people that this isn't the civil war era...

Ask MK what happened in his country in 1939.

I hate to differ though, I do believe that a tank stopper could take down a predator drone....
I don't think many people realize how armed some Americans are -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXIslOxMfGA  (The fun begins at 5:05)

America is far too high tech for any serious worries.  The only way to stop it would be shutting down the entire grid.  If they didn’t, every hacker in the nation would be crippling everything aimed at the citizens.  The government wouldn’t have a chance.  Drones would be falling from the sky and getting taken over by the citizens to return them in force to their origin.  Anyone who really things the government could attack the citizens in the US and win are fooling themselves.  At least until they take away our defenses.

I also believe that local police would defend the people if the federal govt turned on us violently.  Especially county sheriffs.

People were downloading drone images via FTA satellite not 2 years ago. LOL!!!!  With a program called "skygrabber".
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« Reply #336 on: July 23, 2012, 06:12:25 PM »

I have a serious gun question for the experts on this board but I wouldn't want to interrupt such a stimulating conversation here.
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« Reply #337 on: July 23, 2012, 10:21:12 PM »

Hmm...




“A gun is psychologically a penis-substitute and a symbol of power: the age-range of toy-shop clientele begins at about six or seven, rises sharply just before puberty and declines soon after the discovery of the phallus and its promise of power. From then on, guns are for kids and for the effete freaks and misfits who must seek psycho-orgasmic relief by shooting pheasants.”
― Adam Hall, The Quiller Memorandum

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/75699-a-gun-is-psychologically-a-penis-substitute-and-a-symbol-of

I'm still shocked that somebody in Poland which was taken by the Nazi's in what (27 or so days?) would be against firearms.



Now you know why we joke about them.
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« Reply #338 on: July 23, 2012, 10:29:08 PM »

Hmm...




“A gun is psychologically a penis-substitute and a symbol of power: the age-range of toy-shop clientele begins at about six or seven, rises sharply just before puberty and declines soon after the discovery of the phallus and its promise of power. From then on, guns are for kids and for the effete freaks and misfits who must seek psycho-orgasmic relief by shooting pheasants.”
― Adam Hall, The Quiller Memorandum

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/75699-a-gun-is-psychologically-a-penis-substitute-and-a-symbol-of

I'm still shocked that somebody in Poland which was taken by the Nazi's in what (27 or so days?) would be against firearms.


It does provide endless lulz doesn't it?
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« Reply #339 on: July 23, 2012, 11:25:08 PM »

Hmm...




“A gun is psychologically a penis-substitute and a symbol of power: the age-range of toy-shop clientele begins at about six or seven, rises sharply just before puberty and declines soon after the discovery of the phallus and its promise of power. From then on, guns are for kids and for the effete freaks and misfits who must seek psycho-orgasmic relief by shooting pheasants.”
― Adam Hall, The Quiller Memorandum

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/75699-a-gun-is-psychologically-a-penis-substitute-and-a-symbol-of

I'm still shocked that somebody in Poland which was taken by the Nazi's in what (27 or so days?) would be against firearms.


It does provide endless lulz doesn't it?

The historian in me wants to set right some of the things commonly said about Poland in WWII...but oh well.

BTW, PM either Punch or me your serious gun question, or hit me up on FB.
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« Reply #340 on: July 23, 2012, 11:54:59 PM »

Yeah I don't want you to ruin the fun with your history Cheesy

PS see my ridiculous question in your PM.
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« Reply #341 on: July 24, 2012, 07:15:43 AM »

I'm still shocked that somebody in Poland which was taken by the Nazi's in what (27 or so days?) would be against firearms.

The Warsaw Uprising shown how successful are amateurs with guns against regular army.
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« Reply #342 on: July 24, 2012, 09:09:22 AM »

I'm still shocked that somebody in Poland which was taken by the Nazi's in what (27 or so days?) would be against firearms.

The Warsaw Uprising shown how successful are amateurs with guns against regular army.

My understanding is that the Poles in Warsaw were very poorly armed (in numbers), yet still bravely held out for two months against a much more heavily armed German Army.
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« Reply #343 on: July 24, 2012, 09:12:50 AM »

My understanding is that the Poles in Warsaw were very poorly armed (in numbers), yet still bravely held out for two months against a much more heavily armed German Army.

And caused the demolition of the city and a massacre of the civilians.
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« Reply #344 on: July 24, 2012, 09:13:11 AM »

I'm still shocked that somebody in Poland which was taken by the Nazi's in what (27 or so days?) would be against firearms.

The Warsaw Uprising shown how successful are amateurs with guns against regular army.

The ones at Auschwitz were much more successful, weren't they?
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« Reply #345 on: July 24, 2012, 09:53:38 AM »

The ones at Auschwitz were much more successful, weren't they?

They were exactly successful alike.
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« Reply #346 on: July 24, 2012, 02:43:30 PM »

The ones at Auschwitz were much more successful, weren't they?

They were exactly successful alike.

Except that they died resisting their killers.
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« Reply #347 on: July 24, 2012, 02:48:53 PM »

The ones at Auschwitz were much more successful, weren't they?

They were exactly successful alike.

Except that they died resisting their killers.

And made 120 - 200 k civilians to die with them too.
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« Reply #348 on: July 24, 2012, 03:06:55 PM »

My understanding is that the Poles in Warsaw were very poorly armed (in numbers), yet still bravely held out for two months against a much more heavily armed German Army.

And caused the demolition of the city and a massacre of the civilians.
emphasis added

Sorry, but I fail to see how the Poles should be blamed for the atrocities carried out by the Germans after the battle was over.

I also think that Stalin's unexplained delays in coming to the Poles' aid, and in trying to prevent or at least delay aid from other allies, are much more to blame for the outcome than the freedom fighters.
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« Reply #349 on: July 24, 2012, 03:07:38 PM »

My understanding is that the Poles in Warsaw were very poorly armed (in numbers), yet still bravely held out for two months against a much more heavily armed German Army.

And caused the demolition of the city and a massacre of the civilians.

This isn't fair logic.  The uprising happened AFTER they were occupied.  This is not the same as when an army first invades a country.  An uprising consists of sneaking around, arming people where you can etc.    Lots of hidden codes, sign languages, and sneaky communication.

I am talking on initial invasion.  There are a LOT of Americans armed as shown in the video above.  I'm somewhat one of them.  Most of my guns can be made fully automatic in less than 5 minutes.  I even have .223 m885 ammunition that has a steel core for punching holes in vehicles, body armor, or thick bone for large game.  All of this is legal.

3 of my children and my wife all know how to shoot, and I own enough firearms to put one in every member's hands in my home.

I believe that Americans are far superior in terms of being armed, than the Warsaw uprising after being oppressed...

Like I said, I don't doubt the bravery of those in Poland, but ask anybody on this forum.... If China Blitzed the USA, they'd be having a battle on every single street in American suburbs, battles in the country, and battles in the city.   Many windows would be open with shooters.  They'd be fought in the forest, mountains, highways, and back roads.  It would be a horrible day on all sides, but I really don't think we could be taken.  I do not believe it would be the same.  I believe the Polish civilians would have fought long and hard, but unfortunately they weren't packing enough in terms of firearms.  

I really think it was not out of stupidity or anything like that either... But probably more "why the heck would anybody invade us up here"...
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« Reply #350 on: July 24, 2012, 03:16:13 PM »

My understanding is that the Poles in Warsaw were very poorly armed (in numbers), yet still bravely held out for two months against a much more heavily armed German Army.

And caused the demolition of the city and a massacre of the civilians.
emphasis added

Sorry, but I fail to see how the Poles should be blamed for the atrocities carried out by the Germans after the battle was over.

I also think that Stalin's unexplained delays in coming to the Poles' aid, and in trying to prevent or at least delay aid from other allies, are much more to blame for the outcome than the freedom fighters.

The Uprising shouldn't have broken out.

It was obvious Stalin won't help, the Uprising won't succeed and the Germans would revenge.
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« Reply #351 on: July 24, 2012, 05:48:29 PM »

My understanding is that the Poles in Warsaw were very poorly armed (in numbers), yet still bravely held out for two months against a much more heavily armed German Army.

And caused the demolition of the city and a massacre of the civilians.
emphasis added

Sorry, but I fail to see how the Poles should be blamed for the atrocities carried out by the Germans after the battle was over.

I also think that Stalin's unexplained delays in coming to the Poles' aid, and in trying to prevent or at least delay aid from other allies, are much more to blame for the outcome than the freedom fighters.

The Uprising shouldn't have broken out.

It was obvious Stalin won't help, the Uprising won't succeed and the Germans would revenge.

Everything is obvious in hindsight.  Wink
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« Reply #352 on: July 24, 2012, 06:09:22 PM »

The ones at Auschwitz were much more successful, weren't they?

They were exactly successful alike.

I have further come to the conclusion that we have completely different worldviews.  Those men of the AK who died weren't herded into cattle cars, worked until starvation, striped of their human dignity, and then herded again into gas chambers once their usefulness ended.  They fought and they died.

Then again, you even admit in your sig that you are not a Pole.  It wasn't your ancestors that fought to the end at Wizna.  It wasn't your ancestors in the 10th Mechanized who escaped to France to fight again.  It wasn't your ancestors who broke the Enigma code, flew and fought over the skies of Britain to defend their people, who parachuted into Arnhem, who fought in the streets and in the woods of their occupied homeland.  You just live in a country watered by their blood.
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« Reply #353 on: July 24, 2012, 06:17:55 PM »

The ones at Auschwitz were much more successful, weren't they?

They were exactly successful alike.

I have further come to the conclusion that we have completely different worldviews.  Those men of the AK who died weren't herded into cattle cars, worked until starvation, striped of their human dignity, and then herded again into gas chambers once their usefulness ended.  They fought and they died.

Then again, you even admit in your sig that you are not a Pole.  It wasn't your ancestors that fought to the end at Wizna.  It wasn't your ancestors in the 10th Mechanized who escaped to France to fight again.  It wasn't your ancestors who broke the Enigma code, flew and fought over the skies of Britain to defend their people, who parachuted into Arnhem, who fought in the streets and in the woods of their occupied homeland.  You just live in a country watered by their blood.

Not quite so fast.  You are sort of rehashing the core differences in visions between Pilsuski and Dmowski.   The former certainly would not have made your statements about a Polish citizen who weren't ethnically Polish.  Way to endorse Blut und Boden. 
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« Reply #354 on: July 24, 2012, 06:18:10 PM »

But still in context of the thread, I believe that a very well armed people of a country, could keep invaders out, and their government in check if needs be.  Yes, governments generally have larger and more technical weapons, but we must consider what the Taliban has been taking on for over a decade now with horses, swords, AK-47's, not many structures, just mountains..... mines....  Some RPG's...

In America, there are buildings, brick homes, sewers, stores, and many "sneaky spots" that are man made.  Also, mountains, forests, deserts, and plains.   Lots of diversity.  I think guns are very important to all free people.  Sure I wish there were none, in a happy smiley face cotton ball world.

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« Reply #355 on: July 24, 2012, 06:32:50 PM »

I think that Vamrat was making the point that a true Pole is not a coward.  More a case of Blut und Ehre.

The ones at Auschwitz were much more successful, weren't they?

They were exactly successful alike.

I have further come to the conclusion that we have completely different worldviews.  Those men of the AK who died weren't herded into cattle cars, worked until starvation, striped of their human dignity, and then herded again into gas chambers once their usefulness ended.  They fought and they died.

Then again, you even admit in your sig that you are not a Pole.  It wasn't your ancestors that fought to the end at Wizna.  It wasn't your ancestors in the 10th Mechanized who escaped to France to fight again.  It wasn't your ancestors who broke the Enigma code, flew and fought over the skies of Britain to defend their people, who parachuted into Arnhem, who fought in the streets and in the woods of their occupied homeland.  You just live in a country watered by their blood.

Not quite so fast.  You are sort of rehashing the core differences in visions between Pilsuski and Dmowski.   The former certainly would not have made your statements about a Polish citizen who weren't ethnically Polish.  Way to endorse Blut und Boden. 
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« Reply #356 on: July 24, 2012, 06:44:07 PM »

I think that Vamrat was making the point that a true Pole is not a coward.  More a case of Blut und Ehre.

Mythology aside, there were plenty of Polish collaborators.  Obviously the AK would have been my choice were I in such a situation, but even this is flawed.  My Grandfather would also tell me that they were quite constrained by the fact that any killings of German soldiers meant the execution of Polish civilians.  The policies of the Second Republic failed the Polish people - had such not happened there would have been no need for AK in the first place.       
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« Reply #357 on: July 24, 2012, 09:45:41 PM »

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« Reply #358 on: July 24, 2012, 09:47:42 PM »

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« Reply #359 on: July 24, 2012, 09:48:49 PM »



Well played, sir.  Well played!
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