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Author Topic: Communing in Russian Church  (Read 2099 times) Average Rating: 0
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2012, 12:46:38 AM »

Will Orthodox Christians ever learn how to gently explain to someone that they may have committed some sort of faux pas without chasing the person out of the church with their misplaced zeal?

Some of the unkindness that goes on in our churches in the name of protecting the sacred is really just intolerable. Lord, have mercy on us.
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« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2012, 10:11:46 AM »

Today on the Liturgy I witnessed a strange situation with zapivka. One man went to confession just before the Communion and then he didn’t wait for the priest coming out with the Chalice, but went over to… recently prepared Zapivka and he drank it. And a minute after it there was Communion and the man wanted to partake, fortunately one of the ministrants astonished by this misunderstood prohibited it to him. I’ve heard a one commentary “What was it?”. Earlier I had read only about some roman Catholics who thinks zapivka is the Blood of Christ and Antidoron the Body of Christ, but this man was looking as if he was Orthodox (I mean the way of the sing of cross, confession etc.). I don’t know the reason of such behavior. I felt sorry for him, all preparations for nothing...
I drew a simply conclusion: people should be explained e.g. on some sermons all the teaching about Holy Eucharist, including zapivka. I consider it as nice and to some extent necessary tradition, but there can’t be situations like mentioned in the first post of the topic or from my today’s experience.
Perhaps, in Russia it sholud be water mixed with a juice? For people who don't have any problem with alcoholism it doesn't matter (when I drink zapivka I don't focus on the fact it's a wine, but that I've just communed) but for those who have even a small quantity of an alcohol can be dangerous. On the other hand, what's about alcoholics who gave up the addiction, but when they commune, they feel the taste of alcohol? Is there any risk?
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2012, 11:32:30 AM »

(Personally I'd say that both the American Temperance strain that fears all alcohol and the Russian situation you're describing are both unhealthy extremes, but they are different extremes)

Decrying the American Temperance strain is not helpful.

"He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; and wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart." (Psalms 104: 14-15)

"the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." (John 2: 9-10) - (or in other words, Christ not only made the 'good stuff' but He made it to be served after the guests were "well drunk" enough that they couldn't necessarily notice the difference)

So, yes, I maintain that the Temperance strain of American culture which considers all alcohol-consumption to be a problem is an unhealthy extreme at odds with Scripture and Tradition. I'd also point out that the Psalmist apparently thinks it's as much a 'God-given right' as getting bread to eat is.


I do not follow your logic here. I already said that I do not favor the return of prohibition. Besides, prohibition has been repealed for many decades and the after-affects of that "strain", the Blue Laws, are disappearing. The problem of alcoholism remains and one of the main problems we have is the insane notion that it is a "God-given right" to drink, for not everything that is God-given is a God-given right.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 11:33:02 AM by Second Chance » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2012, 12:23:42 PM »

(Personally I'd say that both the American Temperance strain that fears all alcohol and the Russian situation you're describing are both unhealthy extremes, but they are different extremes)

Decrying the American Temperance strain is not helpful.

"He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; and wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart." (Psalms 104: 14-15)

"the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." (John 2: 9-10) - (or in other words, Christ not only made the 'good stuff' but He made it to be served after the guests were "well drunk" enough that they couldn't necessarily notice the difference)

So, yes, I maintain that the Temperance strain of American culture which considers all alcohol-consumption to be a problem is an unhealthy extreme at odds with Scripture and Tradition. I'd also point out that the Psalmist apparently thinks it's as much a 'God-given right' as getting bread to eat is.


I do not follow your logic here. I already said that I do not favor the return of prohibition. Besides, prohibition has been repealed for many decades and the after-affects of that "strain", the Blue Laws, are disappearing. The problem of alcoholism remains and one of the main problems we have is the insane notion that it is a "God-given right" to drink, for not everything that is God-given is a God-given right.

Every right comes with a concomitant obligation. St. Paul's exhortation therefore, to do all things in moderation, comes to mind.
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witega
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« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2012, 12:35:55 PM »

"He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; and wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart." (Psalms 104: 14-15)

"the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." (John 2: 9-10) - (or in other words, Christ not only made the 'good stuff' but He made it to be served after the guests were "well drunk" enough that they couldn't necessarily notice the difference)

So, yes, I maintain that the Temperance strain of American culture which considers all alcohol-consumption to be a problem is an unhealthy extreme at odds with Scripture and Tradition. I'd also point out that the Psalmist apparently thinks it's as much a 'God-given right' as getting bread to eat is.


I do not follow your logic here. I already said that I do not favor the return of prohibition. Besides, prohibition has been repealed for many decades and the after-affects of that "strain", the Blue Laws, are disappearing. The problem of alcoholism remains and one of the main problems we have is the insane notion that it is a "God-given right" to drink, for not everything that is God-given is a God-given right.

discussion path:
I said that strain of American thought that "fears all alcohol" was an unhealthy extreme.
You responded "Decrying that strain is not helpful"
So I provided some verses which show that fearing all alcohol is unscriptural. Indeed the Scriptures go further in stating that a) wine is a good thing, and b) drinking is an approved human activity.

You are the only one talking about "God-given rights" so I'm not sure what you are trying to get at there--particularly since you disclaim any support for laws that would abridge such a right (should it exist).

The Scriptural (and therefore the Church's) position seems fairly clear:
Food is a good thing. Eating too much is a sin (gluttony)
Alcohol is a good thing. Drinking too much is a sin (drunkenness)
Discernment is a good thing. Judging others is a sin.
All people need to practice discernment and self-control to avoid crossing from the proper use of things (food, alcohol, humanity's rational capacity) into sinful abuse of those things. Some people have a particular weakness for a certain sin, and so need to take more care in resisting that sin (whether that's a 12-step program, extreme acesis in that real, a specific regimin from a confessor, or whatever) but that doesn't change the fact that the proper use is a 'good thing'.
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