OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 30, 2014, 01:39:50 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Turkish Muslims demand return of St Nicholas Bones  (Read 3443 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« on: December 31, 2002, 11:06:56 PM »

By JAMES C. HELICKE
.c The Associated Press

ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - The Santa Claus Foundation, based in mainly Muslim
Turkey, wants Italy to return the bones of St. Nicholas - the 4th century
bishop in the Greek city now called Demre on the Turkish Mediterranean coast.

Muammer Karabulut, the group's chairman, told The Associated Press that the
remains of St. Nicholas, from whom the Santa Claus myth emerged, were
stolen from what is now Turkey by pirates in the 11th century and taken to
Italy.

We want them returned in 2003,'' he said in a telephone interview.
We're starting a campaign this year for them to be given back.''

St. Nicholas was born in what is now Demre, about 70 miles southwest of
Antalya, served as bishop in the coastal city and was buried there before
the remains were taken to the southern Italian town of Bari.

He belongs in Turkey,'' Karabulut said.

Hundreds of Greek and Russian Orthodox faithful commemorate St. Nicholas'
death every Dec. 6 at a church in Demre built in his honor.

But the church in Bari dismissed any Turkish claims to the bones.

They ask for the remains only to keep tourism alive. They don't venerate
St. Nicholas,'' said the Rev. Gerardo Cioffari, historian at the St.
Nicholas Basilica in Bari.

According to Cioffari, the remains of the saint's body were brought to Bari
in 1087, and have been stored there in the St. Nicholas Basilica, secured
in blocks of reinforced concrete.

Cioffari said the bones could never be given back.

If the remains were moved there would be a revolution here,'' Cioffari
said. Even the Vatican couldn't do anything about it.''



Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,523


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2003, 03:00:21 PM »

The Turks have no more right to St Nicholas’ bones than the occupying Germans in Paris had to the contents of the Louvre.

I understand the Orthodox are treated extremely well at the Catholic shrine in Bari, with their own church, etc. There is no problem there.
Logged

Brigid of Kildare
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 280



« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2003, 03:35:55 PM »

They ask for the remains only to keep tourism alive. They don't venerate
St. Nicholas,'' said the Rev. Gerardo Cioffari, historian at the St.
Nicholas Basilica in Bari.

Yes, it's interesting to see some Muslim countries willing to exploit the Christian past in the cause of tourism. I was amazed to find an entire virtual tour around sites associated with the Holy Family's sojourn in Egypt enthusiastically promoted by the Minister for Tourism!
http://www.touregypt.net/holyfamily1.htm

The Taliban haven't left much for the Buddhist tourist in Afghanistan though!

Brigid
Logged

Bríd Naomhtha, Mhuire na nGaeil, Guí Orainn
The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,523


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2003, 03:44:43 PM »

Quote
Yes, it's interesting to see some Muslim countries willing to exploit the Christian past in the cause of tourism.

Though to be fair, before WWI and the Russian Revolution, many, many Christian pilgrims (lots of Russians) enjoyed hospitality in Palestine when it was ruled from a distance by the Ottoman sultan. A priest who lived there told me the big Russian pilgrims’ hostel in Jerusalem is now the Israeli police headquarters.
Logged

Dan Lauffer
Athanasios
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 188



« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2003, 05:10:15 PM »

Tell the Turks that they can have the bones back if they will give Turkey back to us.

Dan Lauffer Shocked
Logged
Hypo-Ortho
Guest
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2003, 05:24:02 PM »

Tell the Turks that they can have the bones back if they will give Turkey back to us.

Dan Lauffer Shocked

With Thanksgiving and Christmas behind us, the Turks can keep their turkey--even the turkey bones!   Grin  But I would never support the holy relics of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker being given into the hands of Muslims or other non-Christians!  Let them allow the restoration of Hagia Sophia to being once again an Orthodox Christian church first.  Even then, I'd have to think about it--if it's only for tourism, then still "nyet!"

Hypo-Ortho
Logged
SamB
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 784

Crates of araq for sale! *hic*


« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2003, 05:53:22 PM »

The Turks regrettably still have Antioch as well as Constantinople.  Ataturk managed to gobble up the entire area of Iskandaroon and take it from the Syrians.

A very sharp tangent, if I may:  Instead of turkey, you all should consider a classic cajun delight, turkducken.  I strongly suggest you substitute that for your turkey from now on.

In IC XC
Samer
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2003, 06:11:30 PM »

I have read that Turkey's economy is falling apart.  Wouldn't it be nice if Turkey as a nation failed? Then let the Syrians, Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, and others take back their land.  Of course individual Turks should never be hurt for something that isn't their fault and should be protected in whatever future state they find themselves but their government's actions make Turkey deserve to cease to exist!

anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
sinjinsmythe
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 737



« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2003, 07:38:17 PM »

This is ridiculous.  Let Turkey first lift the restrictions on the EC and restore Hagia Sophia first before they get the bones back..but that won't happen.
Logged

Life is just one disappointment after another.
Frobie
Quasi Vero Monaco
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 633


Rublev's Trinity


WWW
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2003, 09:12:03 PM »

Does anyone know about the accurateness of "St. Nicholas bones stolen by pirates and taken to Italy"? I do think the Christian claims on Turkey are well avouched for.


Matt
Logged
The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,523


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2003, 12:42:47 PM »

Quote
Does anyone know about the accurateness of "St. Nicholas bones stolen by pirates and taken to Italy"?

As far as I know it’s true, but considering the friendly joint Catholic-Orthodox use of the shrine at Bari today, with AFAIK a separate Orthodox chapel, it seems to be water under the bridge.

The Greek Orthodox authorities in Turkey aren’t asking for him back and aren’t really in a position to anyway, and of course the Turkish authorities have no right to him.

I’d agree that one might considering moving him if the Turks gave Hagia Sophia back to the Greek Orthodox... which of course won’t happen.
Logged

jude
Guest
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2003, 08:45:16 AM »

 
á
á
á
á
MSNBC
á
á á á áIN THE BORDER province of Sirnak, the state of emergency introduced 15 years ago to combat a Kurdish rebellion was lifted at the end of November. Residents, mostly Kurds, were looking forward to a more normal life, but their relief was short-lived.
á á á áTurkish newspapers report that between 10,000 and 15,000 troops have been deployed along the frontier and units have crossed into northern Iraq, although the military command denies there has been a major military buildup.
á á á áThere was plenty of evidence to the contrary, however. In Silopi, the last town before the Habur border gate, soldiers were busy erecting a wall around a military compound.
 Latest Iraq developments
 "We have not seen 10,000 troops going through our town," said Mehmet Dilsiz, leader of the pro-Kurdish DEHAP party in Cizre, a truck stop close to the border. "But there are more soldiers posted on the hilltops around the town and we hear of trucks full of soldiers crossing the border in the past few nights."  
 
á á á á
NO DECISION YET
á á á áDespite heavy pressure from Washington, Ankara has yet to define its policy on Iraq, or at least to announce it publicly.
á á á á"We will definitely not act on someone else's orders. We are going to take into consideration our country's interests, our people's interests," Prime Minister Abdullah Gnl said ahead of his Mideast tour that begins Saturday with a visit to another Iraqi neighbor, Syria.
á á á áThere have been countless consultations and meetings behind closed doors in the Turkish capital. The cabinet and the all-powerful National Security Council have discussed Turkey's likely role in any war and the National Assembly is expected to hold a closed debate in the coming days.  
 ÃƒÆ’¡ á á áThe government, which believes the recent U.N. resolution on disarming Iraq does not give the United States an automatic right to use force against Baghdad, has said it will wait for the U.N. arms inspectors' report before deciding the extent, if any, of Turkey's involvement in a military campaign.
á á á áChief weapons inspector Hans Blix is scheduled to update the Security Council on Jan. 27 about the progress of the inspections, which began late November in Iraq.
á á á áThe Turkish government has good reason to be cautious: An opinion poll published in the Turkish Daily News on Thursday showed that 87 percent of Turks oppose a war on Iraq.
á á á á
2ND BIGGEST NATO ARMY
á á á áDespite its reticence, Turkey ù which has the second-biggest army in NATO after the United States ù began preparing for a war some time ago.
á á á áThe governors of the six border provinces ù Diyarbakir, Mardin, Sirnak, Van, Hakkari and Batman ù have been instructed to take measures to prevent a repeat of the refugee crisis that resulted from the Gulf War in 1991, when half a million Kurds from northern Iraq, fleeing the advance of Saddam Hussein's army, massed at Turkey's border.
á á á á"Our work is to prevent a human tragedy. The government handles the overall coordination, but we talk with the Red Crescent, we make sure that we have the necessary personnel, equipment and food to deal with a crisis," said Hnseyin Baskaya, governor of Sirnak province. "We don't think it will happen, but if it did, we made plans to deal with 3,000 or 100,000 people."
á á á áBaskaya confirmed the plan involves keeping the refugees outside Turkey. "If they show signs of moving toward our country, we would meet their needs on the other side," he said.
á á á áTurkey's approach has been criticized by international relief organizations, which say that refugees fleeing conflict should be granted safe haven in neighboring countries.
 
òGet the facts on Iraq; answer the tough questions
(broadband only)
á á á áAccording to the Turkish media, 18 camps could be set up to receive potential displaced Iraqis, and 13 of those camps would be on Iraqi territory.
á á á áBaskaya said the governors' authority could be extended to operate in northern Iraq if circumstances dictated it.
á á á á
ENTERING IRAQ
á á á áThe Turkish army has frequently made incursions into Iraqi territory in the past decade in pursuit of Kurdish rebels who took advantage of the power vacuum created after the Gulf War and set up camps in the mountainous border region. The uprising ended with the arrest in 1999 of Kurdish Workers Party leader Abdullah Ocalan, who is now serving a life sentence in Turkey. But a few hundred Turkish troops are still in northern Iraq.
á á á áPrime Minister Gnl recently said Turkey was planning to increase its presence in the region.
á á á áIn the past, Ankara had forged alliances with Iraqi Kurds, but since the two rival Iraqi Kurdish factions made peace and are pushing for a federal arrangement in a post-Saddam Iraq, relations have been tense.  
á á á áAnkara wants to avoid at all costs the creation of an independent Kurdish state and fears that a federal arrangement could be a step in that direction.
á á á áTurkey also is opposed to Kurdish claims to the Iraqi cities of Mosul and Kirkuk, the latter an important oil production center. Turkish politicians have often threatened to take action against the Kurds if those cities are seized.
á á á áWhen U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz visited Ankara early in December, he warned the Turkish government not to consider a unilateral move against the Kurds.
á á á á"Maximum U.S. participation is a good thing for Turkey," he said. "I believe that rather than acting alone to protect its interests in northern Iraq, it would be much better for Turkey to act within a coalition."
á á á áIraqi Kurds say they would not favor "unilateral engagement" and stress that any Turkish participation has to be "coordinated" or part of a coalition.
á á á á
A ROLE IN THE WAR
á á á áWashington is said to have asked Turkey for the use of five Turkish air bases. One of them is Incirlik, home for allied aircraft that have patrolled the "no-fly zone" in northern Iraq since the end of the Gulf War.
á á á áOn Dec. 25, the Turkish parliament renewed the mandate of Operation Northern Watch for another six months.
á á á á"In this environment, when tension and instability prevail in northern Iraq, continuing the operation is regarded as appropriate and convenient," Foreign Minister Yasar Yakis said.
á á á áThe Turkish media recently suggested Patriot missiles could be deployed to offer protection against Iraqi Scud missiles. The Turkish government has not yet officially granted permission for its bases to be used, but it seems likely that Ankara will eventually give the green light.
á á á áWolfowitz said in December that he was "quite confident that we will in fact have a significant level of Turkish participation."
á á á áMore controversial is a reported request to allow tens of thousands of U.S. troops to transit through Turkish territory or even, as the Turkish media reported, to be stationed in the southeastern capital of Diyarbakir.  
« Last Edit: January 04, 2003, 08:50:38 AM by jude the obscure » Logged
Brigid of Kildare
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 280



« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2003, 06:34:01 PM »

Does anyone know about the accurateness of "St. Nicholas bones stolen by pirates and taken to Italy"?

You can read a contemporary account at the medieval sourcebook site at http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicholas-bari.html

Is it better from an Orthodox pov for the relics of such a wonderful saint to rest among the latins or the turks?

I'm still thinking about the request of Turkey to be admitted to membership of the European Union, which has been much in the news here. My immediate response is a firm "No way!" but some argue that if they were full members of the EU club then they could be forced to abide by the rules and clean up their act. I rejoice that the proposed European enlargement will add millions of Orthodox believers from Cyprus and eastern Europe. This might be as much of a culture shock for western Europeans as accepting Johnny Turkey though. We are so used to thinking of Europe in purely Catholic/Protestant terms.

Brigid

Logged

Bríd Naomhtha, Mhuire na nGaeil, Guí Orainn
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,878


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2003, 07:27:17 PM »

"Does anyone know about the accurateness of 'St. Nicholas bones stolen by pirates and taken to Italy'?"

"Is it better from an Orthodox pov for the relics of such a wonderful saint to rest among the latins or the turks?"

May 9: Commemoration of the Translation of the relics of our Holy Father Nicholas, the Wonderworker and Archishop of Myra, to Bari

Troparion, Tone 4:

A day of festal joy has come.  The ity of Bari rejoices, and the world sings with it.  Today we celebrate the transfer of the relics of the wonderworking and holy Nicholas.  Just as the perfect Light has gleamed in glory, so does Nicholas disperse the darkness of temptation for those who sing out: Save us as a patron, O Nicholas.

Kontakion, Tone 3:

Like a star rising in the east, your relics have arisen and come to the West.  The waters of the sea have been hallowed by your passage, and the city of Bari has received grace from you.  You are truly a most wonderful miracle-worker and a merciful prelate; therefore, we praise you.

As far as I know this commemoration is kept in all the Slavic Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches.  However the Greeks do not keep it.

In Christ,
Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2003, 08:56:09 PM »

By JAMES C. HELICKE
.c The Associated Press

ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - The Santa Claus Foundation, based in mainly Muslim
Turkey, wants Italy to return the bones of St. Nicholas - the 4th century
bishop in the Greek city now called Demre on the Turkish Mediterranean coast.

Muammer Karabulut, the group's chairman, told The Associated Press that the
remains of St. Nicholas, from whom the Santa Claus myth emerged, were
stolen from what is now Turkey by pirates in the 11th century and taken to
Italy.

We want them returned in 2003,'' he said in a telephone interview.
We're starting a campaign this year for them to be given back.''

St. Nicholas was born in what is now Demre, about 70 miles southwest of
Antalya, served as bishop in the coastal city and was buried there before
the remains were taken to the southern Italian town of Bari.

He belongs in Turkey,'' Karabulut said.

Hundreds of Greek and Russian Orthodox faithful commemorate St. Nicholas'
death every Dec. 6 at a church in Demre built in his honor.

But the church in Bari dismissed any Turkish claims to the bones.

They ask for the remains only to keep tourism alive. They don't venerate
St. Nicholas,'' said the Rev. Gerardo Cioffari, historian at the St.
Nicholas Basilica in Bari.

According to Cioffari, the remains of the saint's body were brought to Bari
in 1087, and have been stored there in the St. Nicholas Basilica, secured
in blocks of reinforced concrete.

Cioffari said the bones could never be given back.

If the remains were moved there would be a revolution here,'' Cioffari
said. Even the Vatican couldn't do anything about it.''





We should demand that Agia Sofia (and all the other churches) in Constantinople/Istanbul be returned.  Sounds reasonable.
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
Tags: Turkish Republic 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.076 seconds with 41 queries.