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Author Topic: Catechumen. Catholics receiving communion.  (Read 1934 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2012, 12:00:22 AM »

I guess I'm going to go against the grain a little and tell the OP, very respectfully of course, to mind their own business. There's no way you can know all the particulars and even if you did the whole situation has not bearing on your salvation. Worry about your own journey.
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« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2012, 12:27:26 AM »

I think the OP should talk with the priest about it.  If they are in fact unconverted Catholics, and the priest knows this, this is an abuse that should be reported to the bishop.  If he doesn't respond, it should be reported to the rest of the Synod. 

OP, don't let anyone tell you this is above your pay grade as a catechumen.  Catechumens have called ecumenical councils, been elected to the episcopacy, and witnessed for the faith to their deaths.  I hardly think writing a letter to the bishop about a flagrant abuse would be too much.
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« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2012, 12:41:43 AM »

What is "BE?"
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« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2012, 12:42:40 AM »

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OP, don't let anyone tell you this is above your pay grade as a catechumen.  Catechumens have called ecumenical councils, been elected to the episcopacy, and witnessed for the faith to their deaths.  I hardly think writing a letter to the bishop about a flagrant abuse would be too much.
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« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2012, 01:22:33 AM »

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At my parish, even though most of them are probably not too well educated in their faith, I don't think there's any confusion amongst them whether or not they can commune in Catholic or Protestant churches.

It almost doesn't matter if the laity is or is not "well-educated". It's primarily the responsibility of the priests to ensure the chalice is guarded. And only a few of these priests I have encountered in my life went to seminary. But ALL knew better than to commune anyone who was not Orthodox.

Yes, and the noble ideal that the Orthodox Priest is to guard the Chalice is what appealed to me when I was looking into Orthodoxy, but after several years of being inside CANONICAL Orthodoxy, I have sadly learned that many priests really cannot practice what they preach as pastors because many folks are so naive and confused with the rampant ecumenism. What does one do when the local Orthodox Cathedral has an annual Christmas Chorale in which choirs from Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches also participate? Several times the same cathedral had an Ecumenical Vespers service where female Episcopal priests stood on the Solea just outside of the Iconostasis and read prayers. Many of the laity think that intercommunion is already a fact. Can you blame them?

Edited: it was not the Altar, but the Solea on which the non-Orthodox ministers stood.

Wow, that should not happen. People will call me 'extremist' but I am not, just stick to the faith delivered to the apostles, don't add or subtract, and contend for the faith and don't muddle it down... If the laity want something that is wrong priests should just say no and that should be the end of it. If people go away because they don't believe in the authority of the church let them, don't drag it down and tear it down to cater to them and deprive those who do believe in it. If you get a church full of people who don't believe in the truth but instead have replaced it, its actually worse than worthless, it is actively dangerous and destructive since it is teaching, spreading and uplifting falsehood.
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« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2012, 02:02:10 AM »

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At my parish, even though most of them are probably not too well educated in their faith, I don't think there's any confusion amongst them whether or not they can commune in Catholic or Protestant churches.

It almost doesn't matter if the laity is or is not "well-educated". It's primarily the responsibility of the priests to ensure the chalice is guarded. And only a few of these priests I have encountered in my life went to seminary. But ALL knew better than to commune anyone who was not Orthodox.

Yes, and the noble ideal that the Orthodox Priest is to guard the Chalice is what appealed to me when I was looking into Orthodoxy, but after several years of being inside CANONICAL Orthodoxy, I have sadly learned that many priests really cannot practice what they preach as pastors because many folks are so naive and confused with the rampant ecumenism. What does one do when the local Orthodox Cathedral has an annual Christmas Chorale in which choirs from Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches also participate? Several times the same cathedral had an Ecumenical Vespers service where female Episcopal priests stood on the Solea just outside of the Iconostasis and read prayers. Many of the laity think that intercommunion is already a fact. Can you blame them?

Edited: it was not the Altar, but the Solea on which the non-Orthodox ministers stood.

Wow, that should not happen. People will call me 'extremist' but I am not, just stick to the faith delivered to the apostles, don't add or subtract, and contend for the faith and don't muddle it down... If the laity want something that is wrong priests should just say no and that should be the end of it. If people go away because they don't believe in the authority of the church let them, don't drag it down and tear it down to cater to them and deprive those who do believe in it. If you get a church full of people who don't believe in the truth but instead have replaced it, its actually worse than worthless, it is actively dangerous and destructive since it is teaching, spreading and uplifting falsehood.

Exactly, and this is precisely why ecumenism is dangerous as it leads to a lack of discernment where all religions are considered equally good. I was part of the ecumenical charismatic movement under Cardinal Mahony when I was a Catholic, so I know first hand how someone can be easily led down that slippery slope to perdition.

I thank God that Orthodox Priests have patiently corrected my erroneous thinking.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 02:03:35 AM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2012, 02:21:01 AM »

And what will you do if you find out he is doing this with his bishop's blessing?  It does occur despite all the protests here.  In fact it is quite common in the Middle East.
Communion of Melkites is common, not the Latin church, and that is for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that their patriarch insists on being a bishop of Antioch and not the Vatican's acolyte.
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« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2012, 02:25:40 AM »

Talk to your priest.

If he says "Oh, I didn't know they were Catholic." There is your answer.

If he does know, but still permits it, alert the Bishop.
I'd also try to find out why they are attending and communing at an Orthodox Church, as I take it you are not where the Vatican doesn't have any parishes.

I've updated my profile so you can find out where I am located. I do indeed live in a supposedly Catholic country. Orthodox parishes are rare and attract visitors who are intrigued by the Orthodox liturgy, among them many Catholics. I think you also have to realise that many of these people aren't really into theology and just don't know any better, which is why I'm more concerned about the priest.
BE? Is that Belgium?  I got engaged there.  I remember that the Orthodox Churches had to blend in (that was nearly 20 years ago).
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« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2012, 04:57:28 AM »

I've seen RC baptisms (including in my own family) where one Godparent is Orthodox, but never the other way around.

I've seen that.
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« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2012, 09:04:26 AM »

And what will you do if you find out he is doing this with his bishop's blessing?  It does occur despite all the protests here.  In fact it is quite common in the Middle East.
Communion of Melkites is common, not the Latin church, and that is for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that their patriarch insists on being a bishop of Antioch and not the Vatican's acolyte.

As long as he is in communion with them he is their acolyte and everything else is just posturing.
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« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2012, 10:30:21 AM »

"OP, don't let anyone tell you this is above your pay grade as a catechumen.  Catechumens have called ecumenical councils, been elected to the episcopacy, and witnessed for the faith to their deaths.  I hardly think writing a letter to the bishop about a flagrant abuse would be too much."

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« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2012, 10:34:05 AM »

What is "BE?"

Sorry about that, I've updated the info.
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« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2012, 11:09:04 AM »

Thank you all so far for offering your perspectives on this issue and the advice.

I believe it might be worth adding that one of the Catholics sings in the choir. In fact, I was allowed to do so by the priest, too. I spent some time abroad and ever since I've returned, I haven't participated in the choir because it no longer feels right. I believe it makes you feel part of everything too soon. I'm going to inform my priest about my decision not to participate as long as I remain a catechumen for these reasons. Orthodoxy is not a hobby. It's not a religion where you pick what you like and disregard the rest.

Since I was absent for a while, there is a possibility that the Catholics I mentioned have converted. Yet again, this is highly unlikely. One of them was already taking communion long before I was abroad and clearly indicated he's allowed by the priest to commune even though he didn't convert and was still a member of a (non-monastic) Catholic community. However, I will of course ask these people about it again, and respectfully ask my priest how come they're allowed if they're still Catholics. My reason is this - allowing people to enjoy both worlds at the same time is counter-productive.  

Basically, I believe what we have here are your average faithful Catholics enjoying Byzantine liturgics who are either oblivious to the fact that the two 'communities' are still in Schism or terribly confused by the excessive Orthodox-Catholic ecumenism that exists in my country. Just this week there is one of these ecumenical services, which I am not planning on attending. There's also a strong tendency among parishioners to condemn 'extremism' or 'integrism' of the Orthodox type, and I've heard this condemnation straight out of the priest's mouth. What this means is a rejection of any form of traditionalism.

It's hard for me to wrap my head around all this because I don't see how a native can convert to Orthodoxy only to then join his former co-religionists again, regardless of the denomination. Clearly, there are some really liberal tendencies within the EPC. I don't care if I'm considered an extremist for saying this, but this is unfair to natives from a Catholic country who go through the pains of converting to Orthodoxy, a religion of a tiny minority. This has nothing to do with any hatred of Catholicism. I love many Catholics, but this is a matter of Orthodoxy. Economy is a good principle but doesn't apply here. I've heard Orthodox applying 'economy' to justify their having premarital sex, too.

Having said that, I do want to focus on my own conversion, and I fully understand why some say I ought to mind my own affairs. I know I have to focus on the plank in my own eye, but I don't think allowing Catholics to commune in an Orthodox church in a country with a nominally Catholic majority is 'sawdust', either.

To be continued, I guess. Let's hope I'm wrong about all this.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 11:12:25 AM by quester » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2012, 11:28:54 AM »

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If this bothers you, then you might consider going to one of the True Orthodox Churches where intercommunion is not allowed.

There is no need to go to one of these groups. I have been a member of several jurisdictions and parishes, and none of the priests I know would commune anyone other than someone canonically received into the Church. In fact, many of these will not commune those not in canonical "Orthodox" jurisdictions - in my time I've seen plenty of such folks turned away from the chalice; and those of Slavic origin will not commune anyone who has not been to prior confession. So, as far as the Slavic churches go, it's pretty safe to rule out the possibility of any communion of non-Orthodox.

If you are saying that it is the uniform Slavic practice that there is some sort of 'one confession/one communion' rule, you are mistaken.
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« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2012, 11:29:34 AM »

I guess I'm going to go against the grain a little and tell the OP, very respectfully of course, to mind their own business. There's no way you can know all the particulars and even if you did the whole situation has not bearing on your salvation. Worry about your own journey.

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« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2012, 11:33:05 AM »

Quote
At my parish, even though most of them are probably not too well educated in their faith, I don't think there's any confusion amongst them whether or not they can commune in Catholic or Protestant churches.

It almost doesn't matter if the laity is or is not "well-educated". It's primarily the responsibility of the priests to ensure the chalice is guarded. And only a few of these priests I have encountered in my life went to seminary. But ALL knew better than to commune anyone who was not Orthodox.

Yes, and the noble ideal that the Orthodox Priest is to guard the Chalice is what appealed to me when I was looking into Orthodoxy, but after several years of being inside CANONICAL Orthodoxy, I have sadly learned that many priests really cannot practice what they preach as pastors because many folks are so naive and confused with the rampant ecumenism. What does one do when the local Orthodox Cathedral has an annual Christmas Chorale in which choirs from Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches also participate? Several times the same cathedral had an Ecumenical Vespers service where female Episcopal priests stood on the Solea just outside of the Iconostasis and read prayers. Many of the laity think that intercommunion is already a fact. Can you blame them?

Edited: it was not the Altar, but the Solea on which the non-Orthodox ministers stood.

Wow, that should not happen. People will call me 'extremist' but I am not, just stick to the faith delivered to the apostles, don't add or subtract, and contend for the faith and don't muddle it down... If the laity want something that is wrong priests should just say no and that should be the end of it. If people go away because they don't believe in the authority of the church let them, don't drag it down and tear it down to cater to them and deprive those who do believe in it. If you get a church full of people who don't believe in the truth but instead have replaced it, its actually worse than worthless, it is actively dangerous and destructive since it is teaching, spreading and uplifting falsehood.

Exactly, and this is precisely why ecumenism is dangerous as it leads to a lack of discernment where all religions are considered equally good. I was part of the ecumenical charismatic movement under Cardinal Mahony when I was a Catholic, so I know first hand how someone can be easily led down that slippery slope to perdition.

I thank God that Orthodox Priests have patiently corrected my erroneous thinking.

You have to distinguish between false 'Kumbaya' hand-holding ecumenism and serious 'ecumenism' which gets an unfair, bad rap around here. Cardinal Mahoney was a classic example of 'false' ecumenism - just ask any Eastern Catholic from the LA region who had occasion to see him and his true colors in how he treated them over the years.
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« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2012, 08:21:34 PM »

Quote
At my parish, even though most of them are probably not too well educated in their faith, I don't think there's any confusion amongst them whether or not they can commune in Catholic or Protestant churches.

It almost doesn't matter if the laity is or is not "well-educated". It's primarily the responsibility of the priests to ensure the chalice is guarded. And only a few of these priests I have encountered in my life went to seminary. But ALL knew better than to commune anyone who was not Orthodox.

Yes, and the noble ideal that the Orthodox Priest is to guard the Chalice is what appealed to me when I was looking into Orthodoxy, but after several years of being inside CANONICAL Orthodoxy, I have sadly learned that many priests really cannot practice what they preach as pastors because many folks are so naive and confused with the rampant ecumenism. What does one do when the local Orthodox Cathedral has an annual Christmas Chorale in which choirs from Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches also participate? Several times the same cathedral had an Ecumenical Vespers service where female Episcopal priests stood on the Solea just outside of the Iconostasis and read prayers. Many of the laity think that intercommunion is already a fact. Can you blame them?

Edited: it was not the Altar, but the Solea on which the non-Orthodox ministers stood.

Wow, that should not happen. People will call me 'extremist' but I am not, just stick to the faith delivered to the apostles, don't add or subtract, and contend for the faith and don't muddle it down... If the laity want something that is wrong priests should just say no and that should be the end of it. If people go away because they don't believe in the authority of the church let them, don't drag it down and tear it down to cater to them and deprive those who do believe in it. If you get a church full of people who don't believe in the truth but instead have replaced it, its actually worse than worthless, it is actively dangerous and destructive since it is teaching, spreading and uplifting falsehood.

Exactly, and this is precisely why ecumenism is dangerous as it leads to a lack of discernment where all religions are considered equally good. I was part of the ecumenical charismatic movement under Cardinal Mahony when I was a Catholic, so I know first hand how someone can be easily led down that slippery slope to perdition.

I thank God that Orthodox Priests have patiently corrected my erroneous thinking.

You have to distinguish between false 'Kumbaya' hand-holding ecumenism and serious 'ecumenism' which gets an unfair, bad rap around here. Cardinal Mahoney was a classic example of 'false' ecumenism - just ask any Eastern Catholic from the LA region who had occasion to see him and his true colors in how he treated them over the years.

For three years before I converted to Orthodoxy, I was in regular attendance at St. Anne Melkite Eastern Catholic Church in North Hollywood where I sang in the choir. I saw first hand how Cardinal Mahony treated the Eastern Catholics like step children. I befriended a former Melkite who was forced to be confirmed at St. Charles Borromeo Church just prior to her marriage because they did not recognize her reception of the Sacraments of Holy Initiation (Baptism, Chrismation, and Holy Communion) at St. Anne's (down the street from St. Charles) when she was an infant. The priests at St. Charles regularly told their parishioners not to attend any functions at St. Anne because "St. Anne is not part of the Catholic Church." When the priests and the Bishop at St. Anne complained to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, they were ignored.

I attended at least two parish life conferences, one at St. Anne and the other in Anaheim. So, I am very familiar with Cardinal Mahony's interference in the life of Eastern Catholics. In fact, the Cardinal's secretary called the secretary at St. Anne and told her that he was paying an official visit to St. Anne because one of his parishes just happened to cancel his canonical visitation with only a few days notice. (What an excuse ... step children?) Bishop John learned about this visitation only two days before the "canonical" visit and had to take a last minute flight to Los Angeles. Cardinal Mahony took the throne at St. Anne which was reserved for Bishop John, then he had the gall to give a sermon where he stated, "Whether we like it or not, we ARE ALL Roman Catholics and ARE under the Pope of Rome." When pictures of this event were proposed, Cardinal Mahony asked that Deacon Rimmer (at least 6'5" or 6'7") move to the far side so that Cardinal Mahony's small stature would not be seen as compared with the friendly deacon giant. The parish was shocked by all these events which greatly endeared them to the Cardinal /sarcasm/.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 08:33:51 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2012, 08:26:41 PM »


You have to distinguish between false 'Kumbaya' hand-holding ecumenism and serious 'ecumenism' which gets an unfair, bad rap around here. Cardinal Mahoney was a classic example of 'false' ecumenism - just ask any Eastern Catholic from the LA region who had occasion to see him and his true colors in how he treated them over the years.

All ecumenism is false. It presupposes that we have common ground, when we really don't.

As a choir member, I attended many ecumenical events where they asked us to sing. It was very uncomfortable listening to female Episcopal priests and Methodist ministers standing on the Solea at St. Sophia Cathedral and reading prayers that had been doctored to suit their pleasure; prayers in which the language had been neutered so as not to offend those who do not like the masculine He, King, and Father. Sorry, I felt raped, molested, and sick after such events.

At my last Roman Catholic Church, the choir was forced to sing, "Her Name is Jesus." Is not that blasphemous?
I and others were singing with all our strength, "HIS NAME IS JESUS." Then I left that parish and started attending St. Anne.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 08:31:57 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2012, 11:03:30 AM »

Quote
At my parish, even though most of them are probably not too well educated in their faith, I don't think there's any confusion amongst them whether or not they can commune in Catholic or Protestant churches.

It almost doesn't matter if the laity is or is not "well-educated". It's primarily the responsibility of the priests to ensure the chalice is guarded. And only a few of these priests I have encountered in my life went to seminary. But ALL knew better than to commune anyone who was not Orthodox.

Yes, and the noble ideal that the Orthodox Priest is to guard the Chalice is what appealed to me when I was looking into Orthodoxy, but after several years of being inside CANONICAL Orthodoxy, I have sadly learned that many priests really cannot practice what they preach as pastors because many folks are so naive and confused with the rampant ecumenism. What does one do when the local Orthodox Cathedral has an annual Christmas Chorale in which choirs from Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches also participate? Several times the same cathedral had an Ecumenical Vespers service where female Episcopal priests stood on the Solea just outside of the Iconostasis and read prayers. Many of the laity think that intercommunion is already a fact. Can you blame them?

Edited: it was not the Altar, but the Solea on which the non-Orthodox ministers stood.

Wow, that should not happen. People will call me 'extremist' but I am not, just stick to the faith delivered to the apostles, don't add or subtract, and contend for the faith and don't muddle it down... If the laity want something that is wrong priests should just say no and that should be the end of it. If people go away because they don't believe in the authority of the church let them, don't drag it down and tear it down to cater to them and deprive those who do believe in it. If you get a church full of people who don't believe in the truth but instead have replaced it, its actually worse than worthless, it is actively dangerous and destructive since it is teaching, spreading and uplifting falsehood.

Exactly, and this is precisely why ecumenism is dangerous as it leads to a lack of discernment where all religions are considered equally good. I was part of the ecumenical charismatic movement under Cardinal Mahony when I was a Catholic, so I know first hand how someone can be easily led down that slippery slope to perdition.

I thank God that Orthodox Priests have patiently corrected my erroneous thinking.

You have to distinguish between false 'Kumbaya' hand-holding ecumenism and serious 'ecumenism' which gets an unfair, bad rap around here. Cardinal Mahoney was a classic example of 'false' ecumenism - just ask any Eastern Catholic from the LA region who had occasion to see him and his true colors in how he treated them over the years.

For three years before I converted to Orthodoxy, I was in regular attendance at St. Anne Melkite Eastern Catholic Church in North Hollywood where I sang in the choir. I saw first hand how Cardinal Mahony treated the Eastern Catholics like step children. I befriended a former Melkite who was forced to be confirmed at St. Charles Borromeo Church just prior to her marriage because they did not recognize her reception of the Sacraments of Holy Initiation (Baptism, Chrismation, and Holy Communion) at St. Anne's (down the street from St. Charles) when she was an infant. The priests at St. Charles regularly told their parishioners not to attend any functions at St. Anne because "St. Anne is not part of the Catholic Church." When the priests and the Bishop at St. Anne complained to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, they were ignored.

I attended at least two parish life conferences, one at St. Anne and the other in Anaheim. So, I am very familiar with Cardinal Mahony's interference in the life of Eastern Catholics. In fact, the Cardinal's secretary called the secretary at St. Anne and told her that he was paying an official visit to St. Anne because one of his parishes just happened to cancel his canonical visitation with only a few days notice. (What an excuse ... step children?) Bishop John learned about this visitation only two days before the "canonical" visit and had to take a last minute flight to Los Angeles. Cardinal Mahony took the throne at St. Anne which was reserved for Bishop John, then he had the gall to give a sermon where he stated, "Whether we like it or not, we ARE ALL Roman Catholics and ARE under the Pope of Rome." When pictures of this event were proposed, Cardinal Mahony asked that Deacon Rimmer (at least 6'5" or 6'7") move to the far side so that Cardinal Mahony's small stature would not be seen as compared with the friendly deacon giant. The parish was shocked by all these events which greatly endeared them to the Cardinal /sarcasm/.

The Cardinal must have a poster of Archbishop Ireland in his commode. Unless I misunderstand Roman eccelesiology, a Cardinal Archbishop has no canonical authority over any of the 'sui juris' Eastern Catholic parishes located within the boundaries of his Latin Ordinariate. As a courtesy, his fellow hierarchs could, and probably should, welcome him should he formally request that he 'appear'. Just as a fellow Orthodox Bishop must request permission of the local Bishop before visiting a parish not under his omophor. (This i know from first hand knowledge as a parish vocation from my home parish is an OCA Bishop. He can't just 'pop' in when he feels like it as we are an ACROD parish. ) Goes to show you the reality of the relationship between some Latin Bishops and their Eastern colleagues. This is not uniform everywhere but the fact that it still exists in some areas adds fuel to the distrust of the Vatican (as an institution) that we Orthodox all share to one degree or another.

While I understand your personal experiences were profound, I do not agree with you that we have no common ground with other Christians - particularly those of the Church of Rome. Common ground does not mean intercommunion or that all differences may be glossed over, if it were that simple Florence would have worked out and the half century of uncompleted dialogue between the Roman church and the Orthodox would have gone much further than it has. Recognizing points of agreement (which is what most of the work to date has accomplished) allows for a sharper delineation of substantive differences which is why these dialogues have seemingly come to a relative 'dead end' in recent years.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 11:07:37 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2012, 10:37:49 PM »

However, there's a couple of Catholic folks at the local parish I attend who have not converted but attend the services almost every week and are now receiving communion with no objections being raised at all. Initially I was somewhat confused as I didn't recall them converting.

When I asked one of them if they'd become Orthodox, that person was puzzled by my question! Clearly, he had not, and had no intention of doing so, since (and I quote) 'we're all God's children'. I avoided any further discussion because it would have lead me nowhere.

FWIW, it sounds like he didn't know his faith as an RC very well. After all, the RCC doesn't allow Protestants to receive communion (except in certain rare situations) on the grounds that 'we're all God's children'.
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« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2012, 11:31:49 PM »


You have to distinguish between false 'Kumbaya' hand-holding ecumenism and serious 'ecumenism' which gets an unfair, bad rap around here. Cardinal Mahoney was a classic example of 'false' ecumenism - just ask any Eastern Catholic from the LA region who had occasion to see him and his true colors in how he treated them over the years.

All ecumenism is false. It presupposes that we have common ground, when we really don't.
That's just silly.  Take a look at the Muslim Jesus, for instance, and say that "he" is the same Jesus of your average conservative follower of the Vatican, Episcopalian, Lutheran etc.

As a choir member, I attended many ecumenical events where they asked us to sing. It was very uncomfortable listening to female Episcopal priests and Methodist ministers standing on the Solea at St. Sophia Cathedral and reading prayers that had been doctored to suit their pleasure; prayers in which the language had been neutered so as not to offend those who do not like the masculine He, King, and Father. Sorry, I felt raped, molested, and sick after such events.

At my last Roman Catholic Church, the choir was forced to sing, "Her Name is Jesus." Is not that blasphemous?
I and others were singing with all our strength, "HIS NAME IS JESUS." Then I left that parish and started attending St. Anne.
The "others."  I take it that they weren't Orthodox.  And yet they had a common ground with us.  They just have to learn how to till it correctly so it can grow our seed.
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« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2012, 11:40:00 PM »


You have to distinguish between false 'Kumbaya' hand-holding ecumenism and serious 'ecumenism' which gets an unfair, bad rap around here. Cardinal Mahoney was a classic example of 'false' ecumenism - just ask any Eastern Catholic from the LA region who had occasion to see him and his true colors in how he treated them over the years.

All ecumenism is false. It presupposes that we have common ground, when we really don't.
That's just silly.  Take a look at the Muslim Jesus, for instance, and say that "he" is the same Jesus of your average conservative follower of the Vatican, Episcopalian, Lutheran etc.

As a choir member, I attended many ecumenical events where they asked us to sing. It was very uncomfortable listening to female Episcopal priests and Methodist ministers standing on the Solea at St. Sophia Cathedral and reading prayers that had been doctored to suit their pleasure; prayers in which the language had been neutered so as not to offend those who do not like the masculine He, King, and Father. Sorry, I felt raped, molested, and sick after such events.

At my last Roman Catholic Church, the choir was forced to sing, "Her Name is Jesus." Is not that blasphemous?
I and others were singing with all our strength, "HIS NAME IS JESUS." Then I left that parish and started attending St. Anne.
The "others."  I take it that they weren't Orthodox.  And yet they had a common ground with us.  They just have to learn how to till it correctly so it can grow our seed.


Well said.
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