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Author Topic: Catechumen. Catholics receiving communion.  (Read 2096 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 17, 2012, 03:26:08 PM »

I am unsure which of the forums to post this message into but since I'm writing from the perspective of a convert, I've decided to put it in this forum.

So, here's the deal. I'm a former evangelical-protestant who's been baptised in an evangelical church years ago but for lack of a better word describe myself as a 'catechumen', the more so because I would like to receive baptism upon my reception into the Orthodox Church (hopefully this year).

However, there's a couple of Catholic folks at the local parish I attend who have not converted but attend the services almost every week and are now receiving communion with no objections being raised at all. Initially I was somewhat confused as I didn't recall them converting.

When I asked one of them if they'd become Orthodox, that person was puzzled by my question! Clearly, he had not, and had no intention of doing so, since (and I quote) 'we're all God's children'. I avoided any further discussion because it would have lead me nowhere.

None of this is making any sense to me and I do not understand why the priest is allowing this. These Catholic people don't know better but he should. Either this is hyper-ecumenism at work and/or fear of alienating Catholics by refusing to give them communion.

Frankly, the whole thing bugs me. I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, i.e. abstain from communion as long as I'm not chrismated/baptised, yet these folks who will remain Catholic are receiving communion? I thought Orthodoxy practised closed communion?  Roll Eyes

What are your thoughts and what do you think I should do?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 03:28:38 PM by quester » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2012, 03:29:10 PM »

Talk to your priest.

If he says "Oh, I didn't know they were Catholic." There is your answer.

If he does know, but still permits it, alert the Bishop.
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2012, 03:31:06 PM »

Have you been formally catechized? If this is indeed an Eastern Orthodox Church, find out who the Bishop is and contact him immediately. Communion with heretics is not a practice the Orthodox permit.
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2012, 03:32:27 PM »

Hi all,

He is very much aware of them being Catholics. That's the whole problem.

Edit: It really is an Orthodox parish. It's under the jurisdiction of the EPC.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 03:33:16 PM by quester » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2012, 03:34:29 PM »

Have you been formally catechized? If this is indeed an Eastern Orthodox Church, find out who the Bishop is and contact him immediately. Communion with heretics is not a practice the Orthodox permit.


I must admit I'm not sure what formally catechized means. If you mean there is some official written statement of my becoming a catechumen, then no.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 03:35:04 PM by quester » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2012, 03:36:16 PM »

I suppose you could bring it up to your bishop, though it could be taken in either a good of bad way. The problem might get fixed... but they might also see you as overstepping certain boundaries (I think they'd be wrong, I'm just saying). I think your concern is legitimate, but I would be extra humble and even-keeled if/when reporting the issue.

EDIT--Regarding catechesis, it differs from parish to parish, but for me a specific catechist was assigned to me and we determined a date for the catechumenate to end.
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2012, 03:38:24 PM »

Hi all,

He is very much aware of them being Catholics. That's the whole problem.

Edit: It really is an Orthodox parish. It's under the jurisdiction of the EPC.
EPC?
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2012, 03:40:03 PM »

Talk to your priest.

If he says "Oh, I didn't know they were Catholic." There is your answer.

If he does know, but still permits it, alert the Bishop.
I'd also try to find out why they are attending and communing at an Orthodox Church, as I take it you are not where the Vatican doesn't have any parishes.
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2012, 03:40:20 PM »

Hi all,

He is very much aware of them being Catholics. That's the whole problem.

Edit: It really is an Orthodox parish. It's under the jurisdiction of the EPC.
EPC?

Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2012, 03:40:33 PM »

Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantiople, I'm guessing.

Is it possible these two people are new converts? If they've actually converted, they'd no longer be RCC and there wouldn't be a problem. Just a thought.
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2012, 03:44:03 PM »

The priest should be reported to the bishop, then, to the Archbishop and Synod in New York if there is no action by the bishop, assuming "EPC" does refer to the the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2012, 03:44:36 PM »

Actually if they take Communion only there it means they've converted.
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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2012, 03:44:45 PM »

Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantiople, I'm guessing.

Is it possible these two people are new converts? If they've actually converted, they'd no longer be RCC and there wouldn't be a problem. Just a thought.

Highly unlikely as I indicated in my original post. At least one of them attended the Orthodox parish long before I ever showed up and decided to become a catechumen.
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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2012, 03:45:58 PM »

Okay. I stand corrected.  Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2012, 03:46:26 PM »

Actually if they take Communion only there it means they've converted.

Say what? So all these people going through months--sometimes years--of being a catechumen are doing it wrong? You just show up, start taking communion, and voila, you're Orthodox?  police
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« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2012, 03:48:20 PM »

Talk to your priest.

If he says "Oh, I didn't know they were Catholic." There is your answer.

If he does know, but still permits it, alert the Bishop.
I'd also try to find out why they are attending and communing at an Orthodox Church, as I take it you are not where the Vatican doesn't have any parishes.

I've updated my profile so you can find out where I am located. I do indeed live in a supposedly Catholic country. Orthodox parishes are rare and attract visitors who are intrigued by the Orthodox liturgy, among them many Catholics. I think you also have to realise that many of these people aren't really into theology and just don't know any better, which is why I'm more concerned about the priest.
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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2012, 03:51:16 PM »

Actually if they take Communion only there it means they've converted.

Say what? So all these people going through months--sometimes years--of being a catechumen are doing it wrong? You just show up, start taking communion, and voila, you're Orthodox?  police

Yes, imagine how you feel if you've been struggling to become Orthodox for over a year and refraining from participating in the sacraments only to find that some can partake in the mysteries without converting.
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« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2012, 03:53:45 PM »

I would just discuss this with the priest.
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« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2012, 04:02:59 PM »

Quote from: Asteriktos
I suppose you could bring it up to your bishop, though it could be taken in either a good of bad way. The problem might get fixed... but they might also see you as overstepping certain boundaries (I think they'd be wrong, I'm just saying). I think your concern is legitimate, but I would be extra humble and even-keeled if/when reporting the issue.

Yes, you see, this is a very small parish. It has a limited number of people regularly attending. Among those regularly attending are non-Orthodox, such as myself and these Catholic folks, whom I've talked to and otherwise have nothing against on a personal level. I am not sure what to make of the priest as I believe he's applying a double standard. I will have to talk to him sooner or later and was planning on doing so over the next few weeks. I will carefully try to find out more and make sure these folks have indeed not converted, but as I stated earlier, there is no reason to believe they did at all. In that case, I'll either have to ignore it altogether and pretend I didn't see anything (which goes against my character and principles) or attend another parish (there are few).
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 04:04:56 PM by quester » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2012, 04:15:21 PM »

Quote from: Asteriktos
I suppose you could bring it up to your bishop, though it could be taken in either a good of bad way. The problem might get fixed... but they might also see you as overstepping certain boundaries (I think they'd be wrong, I'm just saying). I think your concern is legitimate, but I would be extra humble and even-keeled if/when reporting the issue.

Yes, you see, this is a very small parish. It has a limited number of people regularly attending. Among those regularly attending are non-Orthodox, such as myself and these Catholic folks, whom I've talked to and otherwise have nothing against on a personal level. I am not sure what to make of the priest as I believe he's applying a double standard. I will have to talk to him sooner or later and was planning on doing so over the next few weeks. I will carefully try to find out more and make sure these folks have indeed not converted, but as I stated earlier, there is no reason to believe they did at all. In that case, I'll either have to ignore it altogether and pretend I didn't see anything (which goes against my character and principles) or attend another parish (there are few).

I know of several Catholics who were allowed to receive Holy Communion in the Greek Orthodox Church (GOARCH).  One was apparently allowed to receive Holy Communion after reciting the Creed during the Divine Liturgy. However, after six months of receiving in this fashion, he came to me one day and told me that he was suddenly asked to come to the church at Saturday Vespers where he was chrismated. Apparently, the priest became alarmed when another Catholic convert received by recitation of the Creed had reverted to Catholicism.

Another Catholic was serving on a ship and was stationed in Greece where there was no Catholic Church nearby. The Orthodox Priest said that he would serve him Holy Communion every Sunday if he would confess to him once a month. He did so, and after two years, when he returned to the states, he entered an Eastern Catholic monastery.
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« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2012, 04:29:57 PM »

Talk to your priest.

If he says "Oh, I didn't know they were Catholic." There is your answer.

If he does know, but still permits it, alert the Bishop.
I'd also try to find out why they are attending and communing at an Orthodox Church, as I take it you are not where the Vatican doesn't have any parishes.

I've updated my profile so you can find out where I am located. I do indeed live in a supposedly Catholic country. Orthodox parishes are rare and attract visitors who are intrigued by the Orthodox liturgy, among them many Catholics. I think you also have to realise that many of these people aren't really into theology and just don't know any better, which is why I'm more concerned about the priest.
Do you by any chance have a link to this parish?
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« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2012, 04:30:36 PM »

Quote from: Asteriktos
I suppose you could bring it up to your bishop, though it could be taken in either a good of bad way. The problem might get fixed... but they might also see you as overstepping certain boundaries (I think they'd be wrong, I'm just saying). I think your concern is legitimate, but I would be extra humble and even-keeled if/when reporting the issue.

Yes, you see, this is a very small parish. It has a limited number of people regularly attending. Among those regularly attending are non-Orthodox, such as myself and these Catholic folks, whom I've talked to and otherwise have nothing against on a personal level. I am not sure what to make of the priest as I believe he's applying a double standard. I will have to talk to him sooner or later and was planning on doing so over the next few weeks. I will carefully try to find out more and make sure these folks have indeed not converted, but as I stated earlier, there is no reason to believe they did at all. In that case, I'll either have to ignore it altogether and pretend I didn't see anything (which goes against my character and principles) or attend another parish (there are few).

I know of several Catholics who were allowed to receive Holy Communion in the Greek Orthodox Church (GOARCH).  One was apparently allowed to receive Holy Communion after reciting the Creed during the Divine Liturgy. However, after six months of receiving in this fashion, he came to me one day and told me that he was suddenly asked to come to the church at Saturday Vespers where he was chrismated. Apparently, the priest became alarmed when another Catholic convert received by recitation of the Creed had reverted to Catholicism.

Another Catholic was serving on a ship and was stationed in Greece where there was no Catholic Church nearby. The Orthodox Priest said that he would serve him Holy Communion every Sunday if he would confess to him once a month. He did so, and after two years, when he returned to the states, he entered an Eastern Catholic monastery.

I understand why some Orthodox insist on having all non-Orthodox baptised. In many Western countries where Orthodoxy is a tiny minority, there are too many people who want to enjoy the best of both worlds, and 'thanks' to ecumenism they believe they have a right to do so. This also explains why these people don't understand my wanting to convert. They just don't think it's necessary.
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« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2012, 04:49:49 PM »

In that case, I'll either have to ignore it altogether and pretend I didn't see anything (which goes against my character and principles) or attend another parish (there are few).
...Or report it to the bishop.  Undecided
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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2012, 05:02:24 PM »

In that case, I'll either have to ignore it altogether and pretend I didn't see anything (which goes against my character and principles) or attend another parish (there are few).
...Or report it to the bishop.  Undecided

I will find myself in a precarious situation, but in a worst-case scenario, I suppose I won't have a choice. It'll also mark the end of my attending that parish, I'm afraid.
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« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2012, 06:16:20 PM »

I would not be afraid to discuss this frankly with your priest---he may know something about the case that you don't---the two "catholics" themselves may be confused. Get it out in the open with him as your catechist and it will make you feel better in the end I believe.

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« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2012, 08:52:05 PM »

And what will you do if you find out he is doing this with his bishop's blessing?  It does occur despite all the protests here.  In fact it is quite common in the Middle East.
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« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2012, 09:01:55 PM »

And what will you do if you find out he is doing this with his bishop's blessing?  It does occur despite all the protests here.  In fact it is quite common in the Middle East.

Just because it happens doesn't mean it's right. And if his bishop has okayed it (unlikely, but possible), then he should also be brought to book. Even if a patriarch were to condone such a practice, he is not immune from censure. His fellow bishops have every right, and, indeed, the responsibility, to take action.
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« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2012, 09:26:02 PM »

And what will you do if you find out he is doing this with his bishop's blessing?  It does occur despite all the protests here.  In fact it is quite common in the Middle East.

Just because it happens doesn't mean it's right. And if his bishop has okayed it (unlikely, but possible), then he should also be brought to book. Even if a patriarch were to condone such a practice, he is not immune from censure. His fellow bishops have every right, and, indeed, the responsibility, to take action.

A bishop doesn't have the right to exercise economy?  Where is the censure for Patriarch Ignatius IV?  Surely all the other primates are aware of what goes on in the Middle East?
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« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2012, 09:33:39 PM »

And what will you do if you find out he is doing this with his bishop's blessing?  It does occur despite all the protests here.  In fact it is quite common in the Middle East.

Just because it happens doesn't mean it's right. And if his bishop has okayed it (unlikely, but possible), then he should also be brought to book. Even if a patriarch were to condone such a practice, he is not immune from censure. His fellow bishops have every right, and, indeed, the responsibility, to take action.

A bishop doesn't have the right to exercise economy?  Where is the censure for Patriarch Ignatius IV?  Surely all the other primates are aware of what goes on in the Middle East?

Deacon, you should know by now that facts never should get in the way of a strongly held opinion!  Wink
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« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2012, 09:35:25 PM »

And what will you do if you find out he is doing this with his bishop's blessing?  It does occur despite all the protests here.  In fact it is quite common in the Middle East.

Just because it happens doesn't mean it's right. And if his bishop has okayed it (unlikely, but possible), then he should also be brought to book. Even if a patriarch were to condone such a practice, he is not immune from censure. His fellow bishops have every right, and, indeed, the responsibility, to take action.

A bishop doesn't have the right to exercise economy?  Where is the censure for Patriarch Ignatius IV?  Surely all the other primates are aware of what goes on in the Middle East?

I'm sorry, but allowing Catholics to commune in a country where Catholics are the majority (as the OP has stated is the case) is not economy; it's sacrilege. I'm all for exercising economy out of necessity, but in this case, I would agree that this is a horrible abuse if the priest is communing Catholics when they are the majority in the area, because there is no necessity in the situation. They should receive communion in their own parishes.
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« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2012, 09:40:04 PM »

And what will you do if you find out he is doing this with his bishop's blessing?  It does occur despite all the protests here.  In fact it is quite common in the Middle East.

I was thinking the same. I've seen Catholics commune in an Orthodox parish and this particular priest might well have his bishop's blessing in this, as did the priest at that parish. I'm honestly wondering if a catechumen should venture to rock the boat on this one. It might set you up as one of "those convert know-it-alls" and spoil the relationship you have with the parish. If it bothers you that much, ask the priest what the deal is, but I wouldn't go reporting it. Just my opinion.
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« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2012, 09:43:58 PM »

And what will you do if you find out he is doing this with his bishop's blessing?  It does occur despite all the protests here.  In fact it is quite common in the Middle East.

I was thinking the same. I've seen Catholics commune in an Orthodox parish and this particular priest might well have his bishop's blessing in this, as did the priest at that parish. I'm honestly wondering if a catechumen should venture to rock the boat on this one. It might set you up as one of "those convert know-it-alls" and spoil the relationship you have with the parish. If it bothers you that much, ask the priest what the deal is, but I wouldn't go reporting it. Just my opinion.

I think it would be a better idea to discuss this privately with your priest. Ask him if some people are allowed to become Orthodox merely by reciting the Nicene Creed and offering their confession?  I do know that this occurs in some MP parishes where Catholics are received in this manner and are not chrismated.

Anyway, ecumenism has infected many priests and bishops. If this bothers you, then you might consider going to one of the True Orthodox Churches where intercommunion is not allowed.
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« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2012, 09:53:10 PM »

Quote
If this bothers you, then you might consider going to one of the True Orthodox Churches where intercommunion is not allowed.

There is no need to go to one of these groups. I have been a member of several jurisdictions and parishes, and none of the priests I know would commune anyone other than someone canonically received into the Church. In fact, many of these will not commune those not in canonical "Orthodox" jurisdictions - in my time I've seen plenty of such folks turned away from the chalice; and those of Slavic origin will not commune anyone who has not been to prior confession. So, as far as the Slavic churches go, it's pretty safe to rule out the possibility of any communion of non-Orthodox.
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« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2012, 09:54:13 PM »

I totally Against Some Of Our Orthodox Bishops  , Patriarchs, Metropolitans ,Sowing this Confusing amongst the Orthodox ,by recognizing the Sacraments,And Orders Of the Roman Catholic Heretics, And Some of the Protestant Groups....It Leads To Confusion on Both sides.....I'll start avoiding the Canonical Orthodox Church and sticking with the Non Canonical ones instead ,The True Defenders Of Holy Orthodoxy..... police
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« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2012, 10:00:12 PM »

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If this bothers you, then you might consider going to one of the True Orthodox Churches where intercommunion is not allowed.

There is no need to go to one of these groups. I have been a member of several jurisdictions and parishes, and none of the priests I know would commune anyone other than someone canonically received into the Church. In fact, many of these will not commune those not in canonical "Orthodox" jurisdictions - in my time I've seen plenty of such folks turned away from the chalice; and those of Slavic origin will not commune anyone who has not been to prior confession. So, as far as the Slavic churches go, it's pretty safe to rule out the possibility of any communion of non-Orthodox.

I have observed this problem of intercommunion in every CANONICAL jurisdiction I have visited.
Not only are Orthodox parishioners receiving communion in Catholic Churches, but they also receive communion in Protestant churches. In Greek and Antiochian parishes, parents are allowed to have one Catholic godparent and one Orthodox Christian godparent if they are in a Catholic-Orthodox interfaith marriage. This confuses the child who is taken to both Catholic and Orthodox Churches to receive communion.
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« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2012, 10:02:44 PM »

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If this bothers you, then you might consider going to one of the True Orthodox Churches where intercommunion is not allowed.

There is no need to go to one of these groups. I have been a member of several jurisdictions and parishes, and none of the priests I know would commune anyone other than someone canonically received into the Church. In fact, many of these will not commune those not in canonical "Orthodox" jurisdictions - in my time I've seen plenty of such folks turned away from the chalice; and those of Slavic origin will not commune anyone who has not been to prior confession. So, as far as the Slavic churches go, it's pretty safe to rule out the possibility of any communion of non-Orthodox.

I have observed this problem of intercommunion in every CANONICAL jurisdiction I have visited.
Not only are Orthodox parishioners receiving communion in Catholic Churches, but they also receive communion in Protestant churches. In Greek and Antiochian parishes, parents are allowed to have one Catholic godparent and one Orthodox Christian godparent if they are in a Catholic-Orthodox interfaith marriage. This confuses the child who is taken to both Catholic and Orthodox Churches to receive communion.

I don't think my parish (GOA) allows for any of those things. Perhaps these problems are present in some parishes, but not universally.
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« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2012, 10:06:22 PM »

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If this bothers you, then you might consider going to one of the True Orthodox Churches where intercommunion is not allowed.

There is no need to go to one of these groups. I have been a member of several jurisdictions and parishes, and none of the priests I know would commune anyone other than someone canonically received into the Church. In fact, many of these will not commune those not in canonical "Orthodox" jurisdictions - in my time I've seen plenty of such folks turned away from the chalice; and those of Slavic origin will not commune anyone who has not been to prior confession. So, as far as the Slavic churches go, it's pretty safe to rule out the possibility of any communion of non-Orthodox.

I have observed this problem of intercommunion in every CANONICAL jurisdiction I have visited.
Not only are Orthodox parishioners receiving communion in Catholic Churches, but they also receive communion in Protestant churches. In Greek and Antiochian parishes, parents are allowed to have one Catholic godparent and one Orthodox Christian godparent if they are in a Catholic-Orthodox interfaith marriage. This confuses the child who is taken to both Catholic and Orthodox Churches to receive communion.

I don't think my parish (GOA) allows for any of those things. Perhaps these problems are present in some parishes, but not universally.

I think the problem is more rampant in the USA and in the Middle East, especially in the Greek and Antiochian Orthodox Churches. However, I have met some very lovely OCA senior citizens who do not understand why they cannot receive communion in Catholic and Protestant churches whenever they visit their children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren.

Are members of the ROCOR jurisdiction more educated in the faith?
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« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2012, 10:18:59 PM »

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I have observed this problem of intercommunion in every CANONICAL jurisdiction I have visited.
Not only are Orthodox parishioners receiving communion in Catholic Churches, but they also receive communion in Protestant churches. In Greek and Antiochian parishes, parents are allowed to have one Catholic godparent and one Orthodox Christian godparent if they are in a Catholic-Orthodox interfaith marriage. This confuses the child who is taken to both Catholic and Orthodox Churches to receive communion.

Never come across this in some 50 years of Orthodox experience, and in more than one country and several jurisdictions, as well as mixed marriages in the family. Whatever church a child is baptized into becomes where the child continues to receive communion, without crossover. I've seen RC baptisms (including in my own family) where one Godparent is Orthodox, but never the other way around. And no cross-communion whatsoever with Protestants.
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« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2012, 10:26:15 PM »

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If this bothers you, then you might consider going to one of the True Orthodox Churches where intercommunion is not allowed.

There is no need to go to one of these groups. I have been a member of several jurisdictions and parishes, and none of the priests I know would commune anyone other than someone canonically received into the Church. In fact, many of these will not commune those not in canonical "Orthodox" jurisdictions - in my time I've seen plenty of such folks turned away from the chalice; and those of Slavic origin will not commune anyone who has not been to prior confession. So, as far as the Slavic churches go, it's pretty safe to rule out the possibility of any communion of non-Orthodox.

I have observed this problem of intercommunion in every CANONICAL jurisdiction I have visited.
Not only are Orthodox parishioners receiving communion in Catholic Churches, but they also receive communion in Protestant churches. In Greek and Antiochian parishes, parents are allowed to have one Catholic godparent and one Orthodox Christian godparent if they are in a Catholic-Orthodox interfaith marriage. This confuses the child who is taken to both Catholic and Orthodox Churches to receive communion.

I don't think my parish (GOA) allows for any of those things. Perhaps these problems are present in some parishes, but not universally.

I think the problem is more rampant in the USA and in the Middle East, especially in the Greek and Antiochian Orthodox Churches. However, I have met some very lovely OCA senior citizens who do not understand why they cannot receive communion in Catholic and Protestant churches whenever they visit their children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren.

Are members of the ROCOR jurisdiction more educated in the faith?

I don't know about how well educated members of ROCOR are, as I attend a GOA parish, but I will say that in the Middle East, there are a lot of factors which make intercommunion a bit more common place. The Melkite Catholic-Antiochian Orthodox schism is still quite recent (in terms of Church history), and the split affects many people who may not have necessarily chosen to be in their situation. Throw in the complications presented by living as a minority in Muslim lands, and you have a recipe for intercommunion through economy. I don't know if we can really criticize the Antiochians for what's happening.

However, in America, where we know that such things are unnecessary, I think it's safe to say that they should not happen, and I really don't think I've seen it happen. At my parish, even though most of them are probably not too well educated in their faith, I don't think there's any confusion amongst them whether or not they can commune in Catholic or Protestant churches. Perhaps your experience with seeing the abuse of economy to allow for intercommunion and non-Orthodox godparents is just extraordinary.
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« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2012, 10:36:13 PM »

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At my parish, even though most of them are probably not too well educated in their faith, I don't think there's any confusion amongst them whether or not they can commune in Catholic or Protestant churches.

It almost doesn't matter if the laity is or is not "well-educated". It's primarily the responsibility of the priests to ensure the chalice is guarded. And only a few of these priests I have encountered in my life went to seminary. But ALL knew better than to commune anyone who was not Orthodox.
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« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2012, 11:01:42 PM »

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At my parish, even though most of them are probably not too well educated in their faith, I don't think there's any confusion amongst them whether or not they can commune in Catholic or Protestant churches.

It almost doesn't matter if the laity is or is not "well-educated". It's primarily the responsibility of the priests to ensure the chalice is guarded. And only a few of these priests I have encountered in my life went to seminary. But ALL knew better than to commune anyone who was not Orthodox.

Yes, and the noble ideal that the Orthodox Priest is to guard the Chalice is what appealed to me when I was looking into Orthodoxy, but after several years of being inside CANONICAL Orthodoxy, I have sadly learned that many priests really cannot practice what they preach as pastors because many folks are so naive and confused with the rampant ecumenism. What does one do when the local Orthodox Cathedral has an annual Christmas Chorale in which choirs from Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches also participate? Several times the same cathedral had an Ecumenical Vespers service where female Episcopal priests stood on the Solea just outside of the Iconostasis and read prayers. Many of the laity think that intercommunion is already a fact. Can you blame them?

Edited: it was not the Altar, but the Solea on which the non-Orthodox ministers stood.
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« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2012, 11:12:35 PM »

Several times the same cathedral had an Ecumenical Vespers service where female Episcopal priests stood on the altar and read prayers.

Where and when did this take place? Does the bishop know?
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« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2012, 11:16:01 PM »

Several times the same cathedral had an Ecumenical Vespers service where female Episcopal priests stood on the altar and read prayers.

Where and when did this take place? Does the bishop know?

Yes, Bishop Anthony, of blessed memory, was in attendance as I recall. This took place in Los Angeles at St. Sophia Cathedral. Correction: The non-Orthodox ministers stood on the Solea just outside of the Iconostasis.
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« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2012, 11:25:26 PM »

Correction: The non-Orthodox ministers stood on the Solea just outside of the Iconostasis.

OK; that does make a difference.
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« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2012, 11:26:22 PM »

Correction: The non-Orthodox ministers stood on the Solea just outside of the Iconostasis.

OK; that does make a difference.

Thanks for pointing that out, Father.
I corrected my original post too.
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« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2012, 12:00:22 AM »

I guess I'm going to go against the grain a little and tell the OP, very respectfully of course, to mind their own business. There's no way you can know all the particulars and even if you did the whole situation has not bearing on your salvation. Worry about your own journey.
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« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2012, 12:27:26 AM »

I think the OP should talk with the priest about it.  If they are in fact unconverted Catholics, and the priest knows this, this is an abuse that should be reported to the bishop.  If he doesn't respond, it should be reported to the rest of the Synod. 

OP, don't let anyone tell you this is above your pay grade as a catechumen.  Catechumens have called ecumenical councils, been elected to the episcopacy, and witnessed for the faith to their deaths.  I hardly think writing a letter to the bishop about a flagrant abuse would be too much.
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« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2012, 12:41:43 AM »

What is "BE?"
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« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2012, 12:42:40 AM »

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OP, don't let anyone tell you this is above your pay grade as a catechumen.  Catechumens have called ecumenical councils, been elected to the episcopacy, and witnessed for the faith to their deaths.  I hardly think writing a letter to the bishop about a flagrant abuse would be too much.
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« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2012, 01:22:33 AM »

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At my parish, even though most of them are probably not too well educated in their faith, I don't think there's any confusion amongst them whether or not they can commune in Catholic or Protestant churches.

It almost doesn't matter if the laity is or is not "well-educated". It's primarily the responsibility of the priests to ensure the chalice is guarded. And only a few of these priests I have encountered in my life went to seminary. But ALL knew better than to commune anyone who was not Orthodox.

Yes, and the noble ideal that the Orthodox Priest is to guard the Chalice is what appealed to me when I was looking into Orthodoxy, but after several years of being inside CANONICAL Orthodoxy, I have sadly learned that many priests really cannot practice what they preach as pastors because many folks are so naive and confused with the rampant ecumenism. What does one do when the local Orthodox Cathedral has an annual Christmas Chorale in which choirs from Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches also participate? Several times the same cathedral had an Ecumenical Vespers service where female Episcopal priests stood on the Solea just outside of the Iconostasis and read prayers. Many of the laity think that intercommunion is already a fact. Can you blame them?

Edited: it was not the Altar, but the Solea on which the non-Orthodox ministers stood.

Wow, that should not happen. People will call me 'extremist' but I am not, just stick to the faith delivered to the apostles, don't add or subtract, and contend for the faith and don't muddle it down... If the laity want something that is wrong priests should just say no and that should be the end of it. If people go away because they don't believe in the authority of the church let them, don't drag it down and tear it down to cater to them and deprive those who do believe in it. If you get a church full of people who don't believe in the truth but instead have replaced it, its actually worse than worthless, it is actively dangerous and destructive since it is teaching, spreading and uplifting falsehood.
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« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2012, 02:02:10 AM »

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At my parish, even though most of them are probably not too well educated in their faith, I don't think there's any confusion amongst them whether or not they can commune in Catholic or Protestant churches.

It almost doesn't matter if the laity is or is not "well-educated". It's primarily the responsibility of the priests to ensure the chalice is guarded. And only a few of these priests I have encountered in my life went to seminary. But ALL knew better than to commune anyone who was not Orthodox.

Yes, and the noble ideal that the Orthodox Priest is to guard the Chalice is what appealed to me when I was looking into Orthodoxy, but after several years of being inside CANONICAL Orthodoxy, I have sadly learned that many priests really cannot practice what they preach as pastors because many folks are so naive and confused with the rampant ecumenism. What does one do when the local Orthodox Cathedral has an annual Christmas Chorale in which choirs from Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches also participate? Several times the same cathedral had an Ecumenical Vespers service where female Episcopal priests stood on the Solea just outside of the Iconostasis and read prayers. Many of the laity think that intercommunion is already a fact. Can you blame them?

Edited: it was not the Altar, but the Solea on which the non-Orthodox ministers stood.

Wow, that should not happen. People will call me 'extremist' but I am not, just stick to the faith delivered to the apostles, don't add or subtract, and contend for the faith and don't muddle it down... If the laity want something that is wrong priests should just say no and that should be the end of it. If people go away because they don't believe in the authority of the church let them, don't drag it down and tear it down to cater to them and deprive those who do believe in it. If you get a church full of people who don't believe in the truth but instead have replaced it, its actually worse than worthless, it is actively dangerous and destructive since it is teaching, spreading and uplifting falsehood.

Exactly, and this is precisely why ecumenism is dangerous as it leads to a lack of discernment where all religions are considered equally good. I was part of the ecumenical charismatic movement under Cardinal Mahony when I was a Catholic, so I know first hand how someone can be easily led down that slippery slope to perdition.

I thank God that Orthodox Priests have patiently corrected my erroneous thinking.
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« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2012, 02:21:01 AM »

And what will you do if you find out he is doing this with his bishop's blessing?  It does occur despite all the protests here.  In fact it is quite common in the Middle East.
Communion of Melkites is common, not the Latin church, and that is for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that their patriarch insists on being a bishop of Antioch and not the Vatican's acolyte.
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« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2012, 02:25:40 AM »

Talk to your priest.

If he says "Oh, I didn't know they were Catholic." There is your answer.

If he does know, but still permits it, alert the Bishop.
I'd also try to find out why they are attending and communing at an Orthodox Church, as I take it you are not where the Vatican doesn't have any parishes.

I've updated my profile so you can find out where I am located. I do indeed live in a supposedly Catholic country. Orthodox parishes are rare and attract visitors who are intrigued by the Orthodox liturgy, among them many Catholics. I think you also have to realise that many of these people aren't really into theology and just don't know any better, which is why I'm more concerned about the priest.
BE? Is that Belgium?  I got engaged there.  I remember that the Orthodox Churches had to blend in (that was nearly 20 years ago).
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« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2012, 04:57:28 AM »

I've seen RC baptisms (including in my own family) where one Godparent is Orthodox, but never the other way around.

I've seen that.
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« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2012, 09:04:26 AM »

And what will you do if you find out he is doing this with his bishop's blessing?  It does occur despite all the protests here.  In fact it is quite common in the Middle East.
Communion of Melkites is common, not the Latin church, and that is for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that their patriarch insists on being a bishop of Antioch and not the Vatican's acolyte.

As long as he is in communion with them he is their acolyte and everything else is just posturing.
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« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2012, 10:30:21 AM »

"OP, don't let anyone tell you this is above your pay grade as a catechumen.  Catechumens have called ecumenical councils, been elected to the episcopacy, and witnessed for the faith to their deaths.  I hardly think writing a letter to the bishop about a flagrant abuse would be too much."

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« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2012, 10:34:05 AM »

What is "BE?"

Sorry about that, I've updated the info.
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« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2012, 11:09:04 AM »

Thank you all so far for offering your perspectives on this issue and the advice.

I believe it might be worth adding that one of the Catholics sings in the choir. In fact, I was allowed to do so by the priest, too. I spent some time abroad and ever since I've returned, I haven't participated in the choir because it no longer feels right. I believe it makes you feel part of everything too soon. I'm going to inform my priest about my decision not to participate as long as I remain a catechumen for these reasons. Orthodoxy is not a hobby. It's not a religion where you pick what you like and disregard the rest.

Since I was absent for a while, there is a possibility that the Catholics I mentioned have converted. Yet again, this is highly unlikely. One of them was already taking communion long before I was abroad and clearly indicated he's allowed by the priest to commune even though he didn't convert and was still a member of a (non-monastic) Catholic community. However, I will of course ask these people about it again, and respectfully ask my priest how come they're allowed if they're still Catholics. My reason is this - allowing people to enjoy both worlds at the same time is counter-productive.  

Basically, I believe what we have here are your average faithful Catholics enjoying Byzantine liturgics who are either oblivious to the fact that the two 'communities' are still in Schism or terribly confused by the excessive Orthodox-Catholic ecumenism that exists in my country. Just this week there is one of these ecumenical services, which I am not planning on attending. There's also a strong tendency among parishioners to condemn 'extremism' or 'integrism' of the Orthodox type, and I've heard this condemnation straight out of the priest's mouth. What this means is a rejection of any form of traditionalism.

It's hard for me to wrap my head around all this because I don't see how a native can convert to Orthodoxy only to then join his former co-religionists again, regardless of the denomination. Clearly, there are some really liberal tendencies within the EPC. I don't care if I'm considered an extremist for saying this, but this is unfair to natives from a Catholic country who go through the pains of converting to Orthodoxy, a religion of a tiny minority. This has nothing to do with any hatred of Catholicism. I love many Catholics, but this is a matter of Orthodoxy. Economy is a good principle but doesn't apply here. I've heard Orthodox applying 'economy' to justify their having premarital sex, too.

Having said that, I do want to focus on my own conversion, and I fully understand why some say I ought to mind my own affairs. I know I have to focus on the plank in my own eye, but I don't think allowing Catholics to commune in an Orthodox church in a country with a nominally Catholic majority is 'sawdust', either.

To be continued, I guess. Let's hope I'm wrong about all this.
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« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2012, 11:28:54 AM »

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If this bothers you, then you might consider going to one of the True Orthodox Churches where intercommunion is not allowed.

There is no need to go to one of these groups. I have been a member of several jurisdictions and parishes, and none of the priests I know would commune anyone other than someone canonically received into the Church. In fact, many of these will not commune those not in canonical "Orthodox" jurisdictions - in my time I've seen plenty of such folks turned away from the chalice; and those of Slavic origin will not commune anyone who has not been to prior confession. So, as far as the Slavic churches go, it's pretty safe to rule out the possibility of any communion of non-Orthodox.

If you are saying that it is the uniform Slavic practice that there is some sort of 'one confession/one communion' rule, you are mistaken.
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« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2012, 11:29:34 AM »

I guess I'm going to go against the grain a little and tell the OP, very respectfully of course, to mind their own business. There's no way you can know all the particulars and even if you did the whole situation has not bearing on your salvation. Worry about your own journey.

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« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2012, 11:33:05 AM »

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At my parish, even though most of them are probably not too well educated in their faith, I don't think there's any confusion amongst them whether or not they can commune in Catholic or Protestant churches.

It almost doesn't matter if the laity is or is not "well-educated". It's primarily the responsibility of the priests to ensure the chalice is guarded. And only a few of these priests I have encountered in my life went to seminary. But ALL knew better than to commune anyone who was not Orthodox.

Yes, and the noble ideal that the Orthodox Priest is to guard the Chalice is what appealed to me when I was looking into Orthodoxy, but after several years of being inside CANONICAL Orthodoxy, I have sadly learned that many priests really cannot practice what they preach as pastors because many folks are so naive and confused with the rampant ecumenism. What does one do when the local Orthodox Cathedral has an annual Christmas Chorale in which choirs from Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches also participate? Several times the same cathedral had an Ecumenical Vespers service where female Episcopal priests stood on the Solea just outside of the Iconostasis and read prayers. Many of the laity think that intercommunion is already a fact. Can you blame them?

Edited: it was not the Altar, but the Solea on which the non-Orthodox ministers stood.

Wow, that should not happen. People will call me 'extremist' but I am not, just stick to the faith delivered to the apostles, don't add or subtract, and contend for the faith and don't muddle it down... If the laity want something that is wrong priests should just say no and that should be the end of it. If people go away because they don't believe in the authority of the church let them, don't drag it down and tear it down to cater to them and deprive those who do believe in it. If you get a church full of people who don't believe in the truth but instead have replaced it, its actually worse than worthless, it is actively dangerous and destructive since it is teaching, spreading and uplifting falsehood.

Exactly, and this is precisely why ecumenism is dangerous as it leads to a lack of discernment where all religions are considered equally good. I was part of the ecumenical charismatic movement under Cardinal Mahony when I was a Catholic, so I know first hand how someone can be easily led down that slippery slope to perdition.

I thank God that Orthodox Priests have patiently corrected my erroneous thinking.

You have to distinguish between false 'Kumbaya' hand-holding ecumenism and serious 'ecumenism' which gets an unfair, bad rap around here. Cardinal Mahoney was a classic example of 'false' ecumenism - just ask any Eastern Catholic from the LA region who had occasion to see him and his true colors in how he treated them over the years.
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« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2012, 08:21:34 PM »

Quote
At my parish, even though most of them are probably not too well educated in their faith, I don't think there's any confusion amongst them whether or not they can commune in Catholic or Protestant churches.

It almost doesn't matter if the laity is or is not "well-educated". It's primarily the responsibility of the priests to ensure the chalice is guarded. And only a few of these priests I have encountered in my life went to seminary. But ALL knew better than to commune anyone who was not Orthodox.

Yes, and the noble ideal that the Orthodox Priest is to guard the Chalice is what appealed to me when I was looking into Orthodoxy, but after several years of being inside CANONICAL Orthodoxy, I have sadly learned that many priests really cannot practice what they preach as pastors because many folks are so naive and confused with the rampant ecumenism. What does one do when the local Orthodox Cathedral has an annual Christmas Chorale in which choirs from Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches also participate? Several times the same cathedral had an Ecumenical Vespers service where female Episcopal priests stood on the Solea just outside of the Iconostasis and read prayers. Many of the laity think that intercommunion is already a fact. Can you blame them?

Edited: it was not the Altar, but the Solea on which the non-Orthodox ministers stood.

Wow, that should not happen. People will call me 'extremist' but I am not, just stick to the faith delivered to the apostles, don't add or subtract, and contend for the faith and don't muddle it down... If the laity want something that is wrong priests should just say no and that should be the end of it. If people go away because they don't believe in the authority of the church let them, don't drag it down and tear it down to cater to them and deprive those who do believe in it. If you get a church full of people who don't believe in the truth but instead have replaced it, its actually worse than worthless, it is actively dangerous and destructive since it is teaching, spreading and uplifting falsehood.

Exactly, and this is precisely why ecumenism is dangerous as it leads to a lack of discernment where all religions are considered equally good. I was part of the ecumenical charismatic movement under Cardinal Mahony when I was a Catholic, so I know first hand how someone can be easily led down that slippery slope to perdition.

I thank God that Orthodox Priests have patiently corrected my erroneous thinking.

You have to distinguish between false 'Kumbaya' hand-holding ecumenism and serious 'ecumenism' which gets an unfair, bad rap around here. Cardinal Mahoney was a classic example of 'false' ecumenism - just ask any Eastern Catholic from the LA region who had occasion to see him and his true colors in how he treated them over the years.

For three years before I converted to Orthodoxy, I was in regular attendance at St. Anne Melkite Eastern Catholic Church in North Hollywood where I sang in the choir. I saw first hand how Cardinal Mahony treated the Eastern Catholics like step children. I befriended a former Melkite who was forced to be confirmed at St. Charles Borromeo Church just prior to her marriage because they did not recognize her reception of the Sacraments of Holy Initiation (Baptism, Chrismation, and Holy Communion) at St. Anne's (down the street from St. Charles) when she was an infant. The priests at St. Charles regularly told their parishioners not to attend any functions at St. Anne because "St. Anne is not part of the Catholic Church." When the priests and the Bishop at St. Anne complained to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, they were ignored.

I attended at least two parish life conferences, one at St. Anne and the other in Anaheim. So, I am very familiar with Cardinal Mahony's interference in the life of Eastern Catholics. In fact, the Cardinal's secretary called the secretary at St. Anne and told her that he was paying an official visit to St. Anne because one of his parishes just happened to cancel his canonical visitation with only a few days notice. (What an excuse ... step children?) Bishop John learned about this visitation only two days before the "canonical" visit and had to take a last minute flight to Los Angeles. Cardinal Mahony took the throne at St. Anne which was reserved for Bishop John, then he had the gall to give a sermon where he stated, "Whether we like it or not, we ARE ALL Roman Catholics and ARE under the Pope of Rome." When pictures of this event were proposed, Cardinal Mahony asked that Deacon Rimmer (at least 6'5" or 6'7") move to the far side so that Cardinal Mahony's small stature would not be seen as compared with the friendly deacon giant. The parish was shocked by all these events which greatly endeared them to the Cardinal /sarcasm/.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 08:33:51 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2012, 08:26:41 PM »


You have to distinguish between false 'Kumbaya' hand-holding ecumenism and serious 'ecumenism' which gets an unfair, bad rap around here. Cardinal Mahoney was a classic example of 'false' ecumenism - just ask any Eastern Catholic from the LA region who had occasion to see him and his true colors in how he treated them over the years.

All ecumenism is false. It presupposes that we have common ground, when we really don't.

As a choir member, I attended many ecumenical events where they asked us to sing. It was very uncomfortable listening to female Episcopal priests and Methodist ministers standing on the Solea at St. Sophia Cathedral and reading prayers that had been doctored to suit their pleasure; prayers in which the language had been neutered so as not to offend those who do not like the masculine He, King, and Father. Sorry, I felt raped, molested, and sick after such events.

At my last Roman Catholic Church, the choir was forced to sing, "Her Name is Jesus." Is not that blasphemous?
I and others were singing with all our strength, "HIS NAME IS JESUS." Then I left that parish and started attending St. Anne.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 08:31:57 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2012, 11:03:30 AM »

Quote
At my parish, even though most of them are probably not too well educated in their faith, I don't think there's any confusion amongst them whether or not they can commune in Catholic or Protestant churches.

It almost doesn't matter if the laity is or is not "well-educated". It's primarily the responsibility of the priests to ensure the chalice is guarded. And only a few of these priests I have encountered in my life went to seminary. But ALL knew better than to commune anyone who was not Orthodox.

Yes, and the noble ideal that the Orthodox Priest is to guard the Chalice is what appealed to me when I was looking into Orthodoxy, but after several years of being inside CANONICAL Orthodoxy, I have sadly learned that many priests really cannot practice what they preach as pastors because many folks are so naive and confused with the rampant ecumenism. What does one do when the local Orthodox Cathedral has an annual Christmas Chorale in which choirs from Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches also participate? Several times the same cathedral had an Ecumenical Vespers service where female Episcopal priests stood on the Solea just outside of the Iconostasis and read prayers. Many of the laity think that intercommunion is already a fact. Can you blame them?

Edited: it was not the Altar, but the Solea on which the non-Orthodox ministers stood.

Wow, that should not happen. People will call me 'extremist' but I am not, just stick to the faith delivered to the apostles, don't add or subtract, and contend for the faith and don't muddle it down... If the laity want something that is wrong priests should just say no and that should be the end of it. If people go away because they don't believe in the authority of the church let them, don't drag it down and tear it down to cater to them and deprive those who do believe in it. If you get a church full of people who don't believe in the truth but instead have replaced it, its actually worse than worthless, it is actively dangerous and destructive since it is teaching, spreading and uplifting falsehood.

Exactly, and this is precisely why ecumenism is dangerous as it leads to a lack of discernment where all religions are considered equally good. I was part of the ecumenical charismatic movement under Cardinal Mahony when I was a Catholic, so I know first hand how someone can be easily led down that slippery slope to perdition.

I thank God that Orthodox Priests have patiently corrected my erroneous thinking.

You have to distinguish between false 'Kumbaya' hand-holding ecumenism and serious 'ecumenism' which gets an unfair, bad rap around here. Cardinal Mahoney was a classic example of 'false' ecumenism - just ask any Eastern Catholic from the LA region who had occasion to see him and his true colors in how he treated them over the years.

For three years before I converted to Orthodoxy, I was in regular attendance at St. Anne Melkite Eastern Catholic Church in North Hollywood where I sang in the choir. I saw first hand how Cardinal Mahony treated the Eastern Catholics like step children. I befriended a former Melkite who was forced to be confirmed at St. Charles Borromeo Church just prior to her marriage because they did not recognize her reception of the Sacraments of Holy Initiation (Baptism, Chrismation, and Holy Communion) at St. Anne's (down the street from St. Charles) when she was an infant. The priests at St. Charles regularly told their parishioners not to attend any functions at St. Anne because "St. Anne is not part of the Catholic Church." When the priests and the Bishop at St. Anne complained to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, they were ignored.

I attended at least two parish life conferences, one at St. Anne and the other in Anaheim. So, I am very familiar with Cardinal Mahony's interference in the life of Eastern Catholics. In fact, the Cardinal's secretary called the secretary at St. Anne and told her that he was paying an official visit to St. Anne because one of his parishes just happened to cancel his canonical visitation with only a few days notice. (What an excuse ... step children?) Bishop John learned about this visitation only two days before the "canonical" visit and had to take a last minute flight to Los Angeles. Cardinal Mahony took the throne at St. Anne which was reserved for Bishop John, then he had the gall to give a sermon where he stated, "Whether we like it or not, we ARE ALL Roman Catholics and ARE under the Pope of Rome." When pictures of this event were proposed, Cardinal Mahony asked that Deacon Rimmer (at least 6'5" or 6'7") move to the far side so that Cardinal Mahony's small stature would not be seen as compared with the friendly deacon giant. The parish was shocked by all these events which greatly endeared them to the Cardinal /sarcasm/.

The Cardinal must have a poster of Archbishop Ireland in his commode. Unless I misunderstand Roman eccelesiology, a Cardinal Archbishop has no canonical authority over any of the 'sui juris' Eastern Catholic parishes located within the boundaries of his Latin Ordinariate. As a courtesy, his fellow hierarchs could, and probably should, welcome him should he formally request that he 'appear'. Just as a fellow Orthodox Bishop must request permission of the local Bishop before visiting a parish not under his omophor. (This i know from first hand knowledge as a parish vocation from my home parish is an OCA Bishop. He can't just 'pop' in when he feels like it as we are an ACROD parish. ) Goes to show you the reality of the relationship between some Latin Bishops and their Eastern colleagues. This is not uniform everywhere but the fact that it still exists in some areas adds fuel to the distrust of the Vatican (as an institution) that we Orthodox all share to one degree or another.

While I understand your personal experiences were profound, I do not agree with you that we have no common ground with other Christians - particularly those of the Church of Rome. Common ground does not mean intercommunion or that all differences may be glossed over, if it were that simple Florence would have worked out and the half century of uncompleted dialogue between the Roman church and the Orthodox would have gone much further than it has. Recognizing points of agreement (which is what most of the work to date has accomplished) allows for a sharper delineation of substantive differences which is why these dialogues have seemingly come to a relative 'dead end' in recent years.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 11:07:37 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2012, 10:37:49 PM »

However, there's a couple of Catholic folks at the local parish I attend who have not converted but attend the services almost every week and are now receiving communion with no objections being raised at all. Initially I was somewhat confused as I didn't recall them converting.

When I asked one of them if they'd become Orthodox, that person was puzzled by my question! Clearly, he had not, and had no intention of doing so, since (and I quote) 'we're all God's children'. I avoided any further discussion because it would have lead me nowhere.

FWIW, it sounds like he didn't know his faith as an RC very well. After all, the RCC doesn't allow Protestants to receive communion (except in certain rare situations) on the grounds that 'we're all God's children'.
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« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2012, 11:31:49 PM »


You have to distinguish between false 'Kumbaya' hand-holding ecumenism and serious 'ecumenism' which gets an unfair, bad rap around here. Cardinal Mahoney was a classic example of 'false' ecumenism - just ask any Eastern Catholic from the LA region who had occasion to see him and his true colors in how he treated them over the years.

All ecumenism is false. It presupposes that we have common ground, when we really don't.
That's just silly.  Take a look at the Muslim Jesus, for instance, and say that "he" is the same Jesus of your average conservative follower of the Vatican, Episcopalian, Lutheran etc.

As a choir member, I attended many ecumenical events where they asked us to sing. It was very uncomfortable listening to female Episcopal priests and Methodist ministers standing on the Solea at St. Sophia Cathedral and reading prayers that had been doctored to suit their pleasure; prayers in which the language had been neutered so as not to offend those who do not like the masculine He, King, and Father. Sorry, I felt raped, molested, and sick after such events.

At my last Roman Catholic Church, the choir was forced to sing, "Her Name is Jesus." Is not that blasphemous?
I and others were singing with all our strength, "HIS NAME IS JESUS." Then I left that parish and started attending St. Anne.
The "others."  I take it that they weren't Orthodox.  And yet they had a common ground with us.  They just have to learn how to till it correctly so it can grow our seed.
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« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2012, 11:40:00 PM »


You have to distinguish between false 'Kumbaya' hand-holding ecumenism and serious 'ecumenism' which gets an unfair, bad rap around here. Cardinal Mahoney was a classic example of 'false' ecumenism - just ask any Eastern Catholic from the LA region who had occasion to see him and his true colors in how he treated them over the years.

All ecumenism is false. It presupposes that we have common ground, when we really don't.
That's just silly.  Take a look at the Muslim Jesus, for instance, and say that "he" is the same Jesus of your average conservative follower of the Vatican, Episcopalian, Lutheran etc.

As a choir member, I attended many ecumenical events where they asked us to sing. It was very uncomfortable listening to female Episcopal priests and Methodist ministers standing on the Solea at St. Sophia Cathedral and reading prayers that had been doctored to suit their pleasure; prayers in which the language had been neutered so as not to offend those who do not like the masculine He, King, and Father. Sorry, I felt raped, molested, and sick after such events.

At my last Roman Catholic Church, the choir was forced to sing, "Her Name is Jesus." Is not that blasphemous?
I and others were singing with all our strength, "HIS NAME IS JESUS." Then I left that parish and started attending St. Anne.
The "others."  I take it that they weren't Orthodox.  And yet they had a common ground with us.  They just have to learn how to till it correctly so it can grow our seed.


Well said.
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