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Author Topic: Anglo-Orthodox?  (Read 5396 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: January 17, 2012, 10:03:39 AM »

Question for you Protestants out there: Are any of you "Anglo-Orthodox"?

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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2012, 10:06:32 AM »

Quote
Historically, Eastern Orthodoxy shares many Anglican concerns about the Roman church such as the papacy, the use of statues ("graven images"), purgatory, works righteousness, clerical celibacy, and divorce. In fact, many Orthodox would agree that the 16th century Reformer's had legitimate complaints against the Roman church and its medieval system of works righteousness. The problem is that their reforms went too far-a sentiment shared by a number of Anglicans, especially Anglo- Catholics. Given these remarkable historical similarities, it is amazing that Orthodoxy is so unfamiliar to most Anglicans.

Since the Oxford Movement of the mid-nineteenth century, some sectors of Anglicanism have, by degrees, become more liturgical, sacramental, and incarnational in their theology. While this trajectory moves in tandem with Roman Catholic theology, it also runs parallel with the theology of the Eastern church.

- from "Anglo-Orthodoxy": Why some Episcopalians are turning to Eastern Orthodoxy for spiritual enlightenment
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2012, 11:09:25 AM »

Question for you Protestants out there: Are any of you "Anglo-Orthodox"?



I dont know if thats an official term but based on my "in between-ness" that may be an acceptable way to describe me.  I believe what Orthodoxy teaches, but have not made the conversion yet...
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2012, 11:37:54 AM »

That is a good article you linked--and it describes me somewhat, but in reverse. 

I grew up Southern Baptist, but about 10 years ago I really started questioning my long held baptist beliefs, and I began looking to the early church for guidance after I started reading the claims of the RCC and the EOC.  I was particularly attracted to Orthodoxy and began reading several articles and books about the Church and started attending the Divine Liturgy when I could. After exploring the Eastern Orthodox Church for a few years, and being a catechumen for a month or so, I ended up landing in the Anglican Catholic Church, where I worshipped off/on for three years or so.  A year and a half ago, a new ACNA mission was started in my home town, so I have been going there (rather than driving an hour to the ACC parish) and am happily involved there.  I still have some strong Orthodox sympathies, but I'm a 'western Christian' at heart I guess, and I particularly love the richness of the Book of Common Prayer, the KJV Bible tradition, and classic western hymns. 
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2012, 11:19:32 PM »

That is a good article you linked--and it describes me somewhat, but in reverse. 

I grew up Southern Baptist, but about 10 years ago I really started questioning my long held baptist beliefs, and I began looking to the early church for guidance after I started reading the claims of the RCC and the EOC.  I was particularly attracted to Orthodoxy and began reading several articles and books about the Church and started attending the Divine Liturgy when I could. After exploring the Eastern Orthodox Church for a few years, and being a catechumen for a month or so, I ended up landing in the Anglican Catholic Church, where I worshipped off/on for three years or so.  A year and a half ago, a new ACNA mission was started in my home town, so I have been going there (rather than driving an hour to the ACC parish) and am happily involved there.  I still have some strong Orthodox sympathies, but I'm a 'western Christian' at heart I guess, and I particularly love the richness of the Book of Common Prayer, the KJV Bible tradition, and classic western hymns. 

What happened as a catechumen, if you don't mind me asking? 
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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2012, 09:56:31 AM »

That is a good article you linked--and it describes me somewhat, but in reverse. 

I grew up Southern Baptist, but about 10 years ago I really started questioning my long held baptist beliefs, and I began looking to the early church for guidance after I started reading the claims of the RCC and the EOC.  I was particularly attracted to Orthodoxy and began reading several articles and books about the Church and started attending the Divine Liturgy when I could. After exploring the Eastern Orthodox Church for a few years, and being a catechumen for a month or so, I ended up landing in the Anglican Catholic Church, where I worshipped off/on for three years or so.  A year and a half ago, a new ACNA mission was started in my home town, so I have been going there (rather than driving an hour to the ACC parish) and am happily involved there.  I still have some strong Orthodox sympathies, but I'm a 'western Christian' at heart I guess, and I particularly love the richness of the Book of Common Prayer, the KJV Bible tradition, and classic western hymns. 

What happened as a catechumen, if you don't mind me asking? 

Oh, nothing bad happened.  The Orthodox priest and the parish were very welcoming.  I had a couple of issues I just couldn't shake. 

First, my wife wasn't on board AT ALL.  She didn't like the Orthodox Liturgy, didn't like that I had to drive an hour to get there, and really didn't like that we were basically going to two different churches (these issues continued to be a problem when I went to the ACC parish too, but she could tolerate the service a LITTLE better).

Second, I had some theological issues. For one, I was at heart still a western Christian and I seemed to see a lot of western bashing among the Orthodox defenders on the internet and in some of the books I read.  I know Augustine, Aquinas, and Anselm aren't perfect, but I couldn't dismiss all of their insights either, much of which was very good and with which I agreed. I also saw not a few Othodox apologists give too little emphasis to the doctrines of justification and substitutionary atonement.  Granted, both of these have been overemphasized to the point of distortion among some groups in the West, but the doctrines themselves are biblical very important.  Finally, I couldn't believe that the Holy Spirit vanished from either side of the church in 1054 simply because Pope and  Patriarch excommunicated each other.  I know that may be an extreme way of putting it, but this is often the impression I got from BOTH of the 'One True Churches'.  Cool

So I am happily Anglican.  I don't pretend however Anglicans don't have problems of their own, but I enjoy being reformed catholic, patristically protestant, and western orthodoxGrin
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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2012, 11:39:48 AM »

I also saw not a few Othodox apologists give too little emphasis to the doctrines of justification and substitutionary atonement.  Granted, both of these have been overemphasized to the point of distortion among some groups in the West, but the doctrines themselves are biblical very important. 
Can't be that important, as the Bible doesn't teach it.
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2012, 11:55:54 AM »

Hello Peter,

Thanks for including article link.

This is an interesting question for me. As I am not Anglican the short answer obviously is no. That still leaves the question however...

I grew up Presbyterian though today I respectfully reject Calvinism. I stepped so far away from God in my teenage years I have spent most of my adult life wondering in darkness to be honest. I came back to Christ (glory be to God) in a Church of the Nazarene. Looking back I would have to say it was a bit of a watered down version of Truth but perhaps what I needed at that time -idk- Several years ago I was exposed to Orthodoxy and today hold a profound respect and reverence to the Truth and Understanding I have received. (primarily via Orthodox sermons on line to which my wife and I still often listen to) For the last couple of years I have been blessed to be led and pray at a small, humble, independent Church that is firmly Wesleyan-Arminian in doctrine and fairly traditional in worship. Protestant 'western' traditional that is Wink The similarities in theology, interpretation of scripture, and deliverance of God's Word is notable if not overwhelming when compared to the differences between this Church and what I have learned from Orthodoxy. The 'worship style' is of course completely different. In that way the article you included applies to some extent; I am drawn to the consistant and fundamental Truth in Orthodox theology, yet seem to be more comfortable with the western Protestant style of worship. Much of this may be out of ignorance on my part as I have yet to visit an Orthodox Church. There are also some Theological and Dogmatic differences that incline me to Protestantism though some of that may be out of my ignorance as well.

Does that make me a Wesleyan-Armanian-Orthodox? lol (Just kidding!)

I am not Orthodox, nor Catholic, so I would be considered Protestant I guess. Until your post I have not given too much thought about what others, or even how I would classify myself. My concerns are of a theological nature. A repenting sinner, in a broken world, seeking the fundamental Truth so that I may continue to 'get to know my maker'. To let self die that I may live in Christ. However, or wherever, The Holy Spirit reveals such fundamental Truth is of little concern to me at this point other than exercising caution to not be misled or deceived. Make sence? 

In my quest for Christ,

Scott
 
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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2012, 12:11:36 PM »

Timon, Doubting Thomas, and alanscott, I've greatly enjoyed reading your thoughts on this matter.

Alanscott, your "As I am not Anglican the short answer obviously is no" is a pretty good description of me as well.  Wink

...
Does that make me a Wesleyan-Arminian-Orthodox? lol (Just kidding!)

You strike me more as an Arminian Weslo-Catholic.
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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2012, 01:21:46 PM »

I also saw not a few Othodox apologists give too little emphasis to the doctrines of justification and substitutionary atonement.  Granted, both of these have been overemphasized to the point of distortion among some groups in the West, but the doctrines themselves are biblical very important.
Can't be that important, as the Bible doesn't teach it.

Try reading it again--particularly Isaiah 53 and Paul's epistles  Grin

In all seriousness, please note that although I pointed out these doctrines (justifiction and substitutionary atonement) are biblical and important, I did acknowledge a distinction between the biblical doctrines and the distortions of the same one may encounter in various modern Christian groups.  I have often noted that in (rightfully) reacting to the distorions of these doctrines, some Orthodox apologists seem to disclaim that these these doctrines are biblical at all.  (Thankfully, though, I have also encountered some Orthodox who do acknowlege a substitionary atonement and that Paul did in fact teach about justification.)
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2012, 02:49:36 PM »

So I am happily Anglican.  I don't pretend however Anglicans don't have problems of their own, but I enjoy being reformed catholic, patristically protestant, and western orthodoxGrin

I'm a little surprised that you haven't gotten any angry, or sassy, or whatever, replies from Orthodox posters for describing yourself as "western orthodox".

  Shocked

I know we Catholics wouldn't take it too well if you called yourself "eastern catholic".
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2012, 03:25:18 PM »

I also saw not a few Othodox apologists give too little emphasis to the doctrines of justification and substitutionary atonement.  Granted, both of these have been overemphasized to the point of distortion among some groups in the West, but the doctrines themselves are biblical very important.
Can't be that important, as the Bible doesn't teach it.

Try reading it again--particularly Isaiah 53 and Paul's epistles  Grin

In all seriousness, please note that although I pointed out these doctrines (justifiction and substitutionary atonement) are biblical and important, I did acknowledge a distinction between the biblical doctrines and the distortions of the same one may encounter in various modern Christian groups.  I have often noted that in (rightfully) reacting to the distorions of these doctrines, some Orthodox apologists seem to disclaim that these these doctrines are biblical at all.  (Thankfully, though, I have also encountered some Orthodox who do acknowlege a substitionary atonement and that Paul did in fact teach about justification.)
The dogma of substitutionary atonement requires Christ to die instead of us, instead of dying for us.  Neither Isaiah nor St. Paul preached any such thing.
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2012, 05:32:44 PM »

I also saw not a few Othodox apologists give too little emphasis to the doctrines of justification and substitutionary atonement.  Granted, both of these have been overemphasized to the point of distortion among some groups in the West, but the doctrines themselves are biblical very important.
Can't be that important, as the Bible doesn't teach it.

Try reading it again--particularly Isaiah 53 and Paul's epistles  Grin

In all seriousness, please note that although I pointed out these doctrines (justifiction and substitutionary atonement) are biblical and important, I did acknowledge a distinction between the biblical doctrines and the distortions of the same one may encounter in various modern Christian groups.  I have often noted that in (rightfully) reacting to the distorions of these doctrines, some Orthodox apologists seem to disclaim that these these doctrines are biblical at all.  (Thankfully, though, I have also encountered some Orthodox who do acknowlege a substitionary atonement and that Paul did in fact teach about justification.)
The dogma of substitutionary atonement requires Christ to die instead of us, instead of dying for us.  Neither Isaiah nor St. Paul preached any such thing.

I'm not sure whose 'dogma' you are talking about, but by 'substitutionary atonement' I merely mean what the Scriptures say:

"5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

"8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken."

"10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. 11 He shall see the labor of His soul,  and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors."  --from Isaiah 53

"24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification." --Romans 4:24-25

"21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." --2 Corinthians 5

" 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed. "  --1 Peter 2:24

"18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us  to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit" --1 Peter 3:18

This is what I mean by 'substitutionary atonement'.
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2012, 11:03:48 PM »

So I am happily Anglican.  I don't pretend however Anglicans don't have problems of their own, but I enjoy being reformed catholic, patristically protestant, and western orthodoxGrin

I'm a little surprised that you haven't gotten any angry, or sassy, or whatever, replies from Orthodox posters for describing yourself as "western orthodox".

  Shocked

I know we Catholics wouldn't take it too well if you called yourself "eastern catholic".

Ah well, Orthodoxy never ceases to surprise. I guess I should be used to it by now. :thoughtful:
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« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 01:49:51 AM »

Question for you Protestants out there: Are any of you "Anglo-Orthodox"?



I regularly identify as "Anglo-Orthodox" and am one of the co-founders of the forthcoming Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism (http://www.easternanglicanism.org)
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« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2013, 04:02:59 AM »

Eastern Rite Anglicanism....

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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2013, 04:34:26 AM »

Eastern Rite Anglicanism....



I'll add that that church not only has among the worst iconographic schlock I've ever seen, but throws elements of Coptic liturgical custom into their "eclectic" worship service (I refuse to dignify it with the name liturgy). A gross insult to all whose venerable liturgical traditions have been raided.  Tongue Roll Eyes
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« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2013, 06:27:12 AM »

Question for you Protestants out there: Are any of you "Anglo-Orthodox"?

John Mason Neale, the translator of (among others) 'O Come, O Come, Emmanuel', was the founder of the Anglican and Eastern Churches Association in 1864. I don't know if we have any members here, but since the organisation still exists, I'm sure there are Anglo-Orthodox out there.
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« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2013, 10:17:00 AM »

Eastern Rite Anglicanism....



I'll add that that church not only has among the worst iconographic schlock I've ever seen, but throws elements of Coptic liturgical custom into their "eclectic" worship service (I refuse to dignify it with the name liturgy). A gross insult to all whose venerable liturgical traditions have been raided.  Tongue Roll Eyes

And Ethiopian, as far as I could see.
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« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2013, 10:57:50 AM »

Eastern Rite Anglicanism....



ACK!!! My eyes, my eyes!  I wish there was a way that I could unsee that.  What horrid religious building is that from?  (I can't even call it a church, I just can't.)
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« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2013, 11:17:02 AM »

Eastern Rite Anglicanism....



ACK!!! My eyes, my eyes!  I wish there was a way that I could unsee that.  What horrid religious building is that from?  (I can't even call it a church, I just can't.)

It's the Episcopalian church of St Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco. What you saw is but a fraction of the "iconographic" abominations on the walls within. Here's their site: http://www.saintgregorys.org/

And here's their "Dancing Jesus". Yep, that's what he's called by those involved with that church:



Shameful and appalling.

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« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2013, 11:24:41 AM »

Ick. I looked at the website. The outside of the building looks nice, then it just goes downhill.  The "icons" of the "saints" are hideous!  How could someone feel comfortable worshiping there in the midst of sacrilege?
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« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2013, 11:31:07 AM »

I don't want to insult anybody, but I can't look at that fresco without thinking about the danse macabre.

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« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2013, 11:35:29 AM »

Ick. I looked at the website. The outside of the building looks nice, then it just goes downhill.  The "icons" of the "saints" are hideous!  How could someone feel comfortable worshiping there in the midst of sacrilege?

The great tragedy is neither the artist who painted these murals, nor the folks who worship there, see it as sacrilege. I have the artist's spiels on each of the figures he has painted on file. Nauseating.
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« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2013, 11:41:19 AM »

For some reason Luther and Gandhi in iconographical-ish style dancing looks funny. It's still distasteful, though.
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« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2013, 11:54:09 AM »

For some reason Luther and Gandhi in iconographical-ish style dancing looks funny. It's still distasteful, though.

Try Lady Godiva and her horse, Ella Fitzgerald, Anne Frank, Martha Graham (dancer and modern dance choreographer), Malcolm X and Eleanor Roosevelt.  Tongue Tongue Tongue
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« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2013, 11:55:25 AM »

Does the horse have a halo?  Tongue
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« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2013, 12:09:43 PM »

Ick. I looked at the website. The outside of the building looks nice, then it just goes downhill.  The "icons" of the "saints" are hideous!  How could someone feel comfortable worshiping there in the midst of sacrilege?

The great tragedy is neither the artist who painted these murals, nor the folks who worship there, see it as sacrilege. I have the artist's spiels on each of the figures he has painted on file. Nauseating.

I attended a Rachmaninoff Vigil concert there a number of years ago.  Yes, SCAAAA-RYYYY!

I sang the Bach B minor mass with their choir director (he was another tenor - not the director) last fall.  Well meaning and nice people, but obviously misguided when it comes to these things.  All we can do is pray that they will be enlightened.
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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2013, 12:20:39 PM »



Shameful and appalling.



Now that's a horrible way to talk about Yanni!
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« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2013, 12:22:09 PM »

Does the horse have a halo?  Tongue

No. Neither does St Seraphim of Sarov's bear, nor Sadi's (medieval Sufi poet) tiger. Not that it would make much difference.  Wink
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« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2013, 12:23:18 PM »



Shameful and appalling.



Now that's a horrible way to talk about Yanni!

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh ... but where's his piano?

You almost owed me a new laptop.  laugh
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« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2013, 12:28:22 PM »


Quote
Pagan mathematician and philosopher who drew pupils from throughout the Greek world, Christian and pagan. Cyril, Archbishop of Alexandria, perceived her as a threat to the Church, and she was martyred at the hands of Christian monks. As Christian humanists, we honor Hypatia’s learning and courage, holding her as a witness to intellectual curiosity and honest inquiry, which are closer to God than the angry certainties of fundamentalism.

For one, I'm pretty sure her death was more politically-driven in nature. And second, venerating someone in icon form just to push an anti-fundamentalist ideology?

Ridiculous.
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« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2013, 12:30:53 PM »



She looked much hotter in Agora
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« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2013, 02:17:05 PM »

By, Eastern Rite Anglicanism, I am not talking about the unorthodox icons at St. Gregory's. They aren't trying to be orthodox or do Eastern Rite. I am talking about something more along these lines, including the Liturgy of Preparation (Proskimidia), which we celebrated at the Episcopal seminary where I attained my MDiv:









etc. etc. all the way through the Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2013, 02:21:22 PM »

Question for you Protestants out there: Are any of you "Anglo-Orthodox"?

I regularly identify as "Anglo-Orthodox" and am one of the co-founders of the forthcoming Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism (http://www.easternanglicanism.org)

Like them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar_Thoma_Syrian_Church
?
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« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2013, 02:33:29 PM »

By, Eastern Rite Anglicanism, I am not talking about the unorthodox icons at St. Gregory's. They aren't trying to be orthodox or do Eastern Rite. I am talking about something more along these lines, including the Liturgy of Preparation (Proskimidia), which we celebrated at the Episcopal seminary where I attained my MDiv:

etc. etc. all the way through the Divine Liturgy.

Do you use Byzantine Vestments as well?
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« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2013, 02:33:59 PM »

Eastern Rite Anglicanism....



Looks like the conga line.
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« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2013, 02:44:48 PM »

Question for you Protestants out there: Are any of you "Anglo-Orthodox"?

I regularly identify as "Anglo-Orthodox" and am one of the co-founders of the forthcoming Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism (http://www.easternanglicanism.org)

Like them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar_Thoma_Syrian_Church
?

The "Mar Thoma" Church was founded by a rogue Orthodox Priest who wormed his way into the Episcopacy before starting his "reformation". This just looks like disaffected Anglicans LARPing harder than a Civil War Re-enactment.
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« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2013, 06:51:28 PM »

Eastern Rite Anglicanism....



ACK!!! My eyes, my eyes!  I wish there was a way that I could unsee that.  What horrid religious building is that from?  (I can't even call it a church, I just can't.)

It's the Episcopalian church of St Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco. What you saw is but a fraction of the "iconographic" abominations on the walls within. Here's their site: http://www.saintgregorys.org/

By, Eastern Rite Anglicanism, I am not talking about the unorthodox icons at St. Gregory's. They aren't trying to be orthodox or do Eastern Rite.

I was just going to ask if St. Gregory's calls itself "Anglo-Orthodox", but I see you already answered that question.

But (at the risk of speaking in ignorance) as far as the other part of your statement ("They aren't trying to ... do Eastern Rite"), it strikes that they are at least trying to make themselves seem Eastern or Eastern-ish. (I'm basing that on their website.)

Hmmm...
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« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2013, 06:55:51 PM »

Question for you Protestants out there: Are any of you "Anglo-Orthodox"?

I regularly identify as "Anglo-Orthodox" and am one of the co-founders of the forthcoming Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism (http://www.easternanglicanism.org)

I don't know much about it but Smiley.

I notice that website says "Coming Soon". I can't promise that I'll keep checking it, but perhaps you could make an announcement here when it comes.
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« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2013, 07:27:14 PM »

Eastern Rite Anglicanism....



ACK!!! My eyes, my eyes!  I wish there was a way that I could unsee that.  What horrid religious building is that from?  (I can't even call it a church, I just can't.)

It's the Episcopalian church of St Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco. What you saw is but a fraction of the "iconographic" abominations on the walls within. Here's their site: http://www.saintgregorys.org/

By, Eastern Rite Anglicanism, I am not talking about the unorthodox icons at St. Gregory's. They aren't trying to be orthodox or do Eastern Rite.

I was just going to ask if St. Gregory's calls itself "Anglo-Orthodox", but I see you already answered that question.

But (at the risk of speaking in ignorance) as far as the other part of your statement ("They aren't trying to ... do Eastern Rite"), it strikes that they are at least trying to make themselves seem Eastern or Eastern-ish. (I'm basing that on their website.)

Hmmm...

As I posted before, I have been inside St. Gregory's for a concert.  I don't think there is any doubt that they are intentionally trying to be "Eastern Rite Episcopalian".  Sure, we don't like them more or less "mocking" our icons, but again, they are not part of us.
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« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2013, 08:15:51 PM »

Eastern Rite Anglicanism....



St. Seraphim of Sarov, Gandhi... Mr Rogers?
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« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2013, 09:00:11 PM »

Is it really possible to have an Eastern Rite in the Anglican Communion? I thought that, despite diversity, the single common denominator was the Book of Common Prayer?
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« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2013, 09:05:10 PM »

Eastern Rite Anglicanism....


NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Is that Mr. Rogers? 
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« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2013, 09:33:06 PM »

"Dancing with the saints" also from their website.

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« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2013, 10:12:53 PM »

Is it really possible to have an Eastern Rite in the Anglican Communion? I thought that, despite diversity, the single common denominator was the Book of Common Prayer?

That could be the case for some churches in the Anglican Communion, but we're talking about the EC-USA here. It's kind of an "all bets are off" situation.

But frankly I find it curious, the uproar here over that parish (St Gregory). I'm not denying that it's bad, but I imagine there are plenty of Western parishes in the EC-USA that are as bad or worse.
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« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2013, 01:37:40 AM »

Question for you Protestants out there: Are any of you "Anglo-Orthodox"?

I regularly identify as "Anglo-Orthodox" and am one of the co-founders of the forthcoming Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism (http://www.easternanglicanism.org)

Like them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar_Thoma_Syrian_Church
?

Mar Thoma is not Byzantine Rite. I am talking about the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.
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« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2013, 01:39:31 AM »

Is it really possible to have an Eastern Rite in the Anglican Communion? I thought that, despite diversity, the single common denominator was the Book of Common Prayer?

That's the question that people are exploring in the Society. You can visit our Facebook group here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/EasternAnglicanism/.

Here's a Byzantine Vespers Service we recently did at my parish, Saint Giles Episcopal Church:
http://vimeo.com/55999155
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« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2013, 02:59:33 AM »

Is it really possible to have an Eastern Rite in the Anglican Communion? I thought that, despite diversity, the single common denominator was the Book of Common Prayer?

That could be the case for some churches in the Anglican Communion, but we're talking about the EC-USA here. It's kind of an "all bets are off" situation.

But frankly I find it curious, the uproar here over that parish (St Gregory). I'm not denying that it's bad, but I imagine there are plenty of Western parishes in the EC-USA that are as bad or worse.

Just so you know, the state of the liturgy varies from diocese to diocese based upon the bishop.  For instance, the bishop of the Diocese of Arizona has made it a point of great importance that his parishes stick to the Book of Common Prayer.

Other bishops permit things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Service_Book to be used for services.  But in very few cases is it the case that "all bets are off."
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« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2013, 03:04:43 AM »

Is it really possible to have an Eastern Rite in the Anglican Communion? I thought that, despite diversity, the single common denominator was the Book of Common Prayer?

That could be the case for some churches in the Anglican Communion, but we're talking about the EC-USA here. It's kind of an "all bets are off" situation.

But frankly I find it curious, the uproar here over that parish (St Gregory). I'm not denying that it's bad, but I imagine there are plenty of Western parishes in the EC-USA that are as bad or worse.

Just so you know, the state of the liturgy varies from diocese to diocese based upon the bishop.  For instance, the bishop of the Diocese of Arizona has made it a point of great importance that his parishes stick to the Book of Common Prayer.

Other bishops permit things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Service_Book to be used for services.  But in very few cases is it the case that "all bets are off."

Not true. The liturgies from Enriching Our Worship (EOW), a very postmodern "inclusive" liturgical resource, are gaining popularity. Also, the BCP offers "An Order for Celebrating the Holy Eucharist" (BCP pages 400-401), commonly called Rite III, that could be used to create an Eastern Rite. It just cannot be used for the principal Sunday service.
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« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2013, 08:46:22 AM »

Is it really possible to have an Eastern Rite in the Anglican Communion? I thought that, despite diversity, the single common denominator was the Book of Common Prayer?

That could be the case for some churches in the Anglican Communion, but we're talking about the EC-USA here. It's kind of an "all bets are off" situation.

But frankly I find it curious, the uproar here over that parish (St Gregory). I'm not denying that it's bad, but I imagine there are plenty of Western parishes in the EC-USA that are as bad or worse.

Just so you know, the state of the liturgy varies from diocese to diocese based upon the bishop.  For instance, the bishop of the Diocese of Arizona has made it a point of great importance that his parishes stick to the Book of Common Prayer.

Other bishops permit things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Service_Book to be used for services.  But in very few cases is it the case that "all bets are off."

Well, I guess I didn't really mean "all bets are off" ... if we tried, we could undoubtedly find churches even more liberal than the EC-USA.

And, of course, I don't deny that there are some conservatives who stay in the EC-USA -- although I'm not sure whether to call them heroic or just foolish.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2013, 09:04:45 AM »

Question for you Protestants out there: Are any of you "Anglo-Orthodox"?

I regularly identify as "Anglo-Orthodox" and am one of the co-founders of the forthcoming Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism (http://www.easternanglicanism.org)

Like them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar_Thoma_Syrian_Church
?

Technically there aren't in the Anglican Communion, although they are in full communion with it (as are the Old Catholic (Union of Utrecht) churches).

So I guess you could call them "Eastern Non-Byzantine Non-Anglican Christians In Communion With Anglicanism".  Cool
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« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2013, 01:15:07 PM »

Not true. The liturgies from Enriching Our Worship (EOW), a very postmodern "inclusive" liturgical resource, are gaining popularity. Also, the BCP offers "An Order for Celebrating the Holy Eucharist" (BCP pages 400-401), commonly called Rite III, that could be used to create an Eastern Rite. It just cannot be used for the principal Sunday service.

I don't think EoW is that popular. It's pushed heavily by high-profile heretics but I've rarely come across its use in a parish, though some of its quirks are commonly applied to the BCP rites in liberal areas. Also, the currently constituted Standing Committee on Liturgy and Music is rather adverse to it; there was a lot of pushback against the last products of the old SCLM.

Rite III is really just the most bareboned skeleton of the 1979 Eucharistic order. Perhaps it could be claimed to cover a Byzantine rite, but when I look at it I see something headed in the complete opposite direction.
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« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2013, 01:30:06 AM »

Is it really possible to have an Eastern Rite in the Anglican Communion? I thought that, despite diversity, the single common denominator was the Book of Common Prayer?

That could be the case for some churches in the Anglican Communion, but we're talking about the EC-USA here. It's kind of an "all bets are off" situation.

But frankly I find it curious, the uproar here over that parish (St Gregory). I'm not denying that it's bad, but I imagine there are plenty of Western parishes in the EC-USA that are as bad or worse.

Just so you know, the state of the liturgy varies from diocese to diocese based upon the bishop.  For instance, the bishop of the Diocese of Arizona has made it a point of great importance that his parishes stick to the Book of Common Prayer.

Other bishops permit things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Service_Book to be used for services.  But in very few cases is it the case that "all bets are off."

Not true. The liturgies from Enriching Our Worship (EOW), a very postmodern "inclusive" liturgical resource, are gaining popularity. Also, the BCP offers "An Order for Celebrating the Holy Eucharist" (BCP pages 400-401), commonly called Rite III, that could be used to create an Eastern Rite. It just cannot be used for the principal Sunday service.

Which part of what I said isn't true? 
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« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2013, 02:12:56 AM »

Eastern Rite Anglicanism....



What is that, the wall of some temple to Satan?
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« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2013, 02:35:57 AM »

Eastern Rite Anglicanism....



Looks like the conga line.
Did you see that it was on the bumper of the car the Boston bombers were in?
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« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2013, 02:38:09 AM »

"Dancing with the saints" also from their website.


No doubt they have the "Lord of the Dance" front and center.
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« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2013, 02:57:33 AM »

Question for you Protestants out there: Are any of you "Anglo-Orthodox"?



I regularly identify as "Anglo-Orthodox" and am one of the co-founders of the forthcoming Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism (http://www.easternanglicanism.org)

Cool, Byzantine liturgy without all those pesky teachings about homosexuality and the like.
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« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2013, 04:09:06 AM »

"Dancing with the saints" also from their website.


No doubt they have the "Lord of the Dance" front and center.

They do have one, the Dancing Jesus I posted earlier. Though they'd probably like the other one, too ....  Tongue Tongue Wink
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« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2013, 07:32:46 AM »

As far as I know the ECUSA, I am sure there would be a way to accomodate an Eastern rite, either in an existing parish, on an experimental base in addition to the main service (if the rector and the vestry of that parish agree) or even creating a special ministry in a diocese with a status different from a regular parish. In that case, it would depend on the bishop.
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« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2013, 07:47:54 AM »

As far as I know the ECUSA, I am sure there would be a way to accomodate an Eastern rite, either in an existing parish, on an experimental base in addition to the main service (if the rector and the vestry of that parish agree) or even creating a special ministry in a diocese with a status different from a regular parish. In that case, it would depend on the bishop.
So I guess Bishop Katherine would grow a beard then?

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« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2013, 12:27:16 PM »

As far as I know the ECUSA, I am sure there would be a way to accomodate an Eastern rite, either in an existing parish, on an experimental base in addition to the main service (if the rector and the vestry of that parish agree) or even creating a special ministry in a diocese with a status different from a regular parish. In that case, it would depend on the bishop.
So I guess Kathy would grow a beard then?

PP

Who's Kathy?
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« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2013, 08:07:12 PM »

Eastern Rite Anglicanism....



Kind of disappointed that the bear didn't manage to get canonized. Must have been those last-minute people that he ate.
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« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2013, 08:54:34 PM »

People need to get over posting pics from Saint Gregory of Nyssa. They aren't trying to be Orthodox and more than Br. Robert Lentz (https://www.trinitystores.com/store/artist/Robert-Lentz) is trying to make Orthodox icons...meaning, they aren't.

In terms of those of us who truly identify as Anglo-Orthodox or Eastern Rite Anglicans, these postmodern pseudo-Orthodox icons don't represent us.

In terms of my previous "Not true" comment it had to do with all bets being off for Eastern Rite Anglicansim. Basically, it will depend upon bishops aligning their dioceses with the mission of the Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism. We will have options available for individuals to join as members, but also for dioceses, congregations, and communities to join as affiliates. By a diocese becoming an affiliate they will support their congregations in using the Eastern Rites. It is entirely feasible.

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« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2013, 09:02:52 PM »

People need to get over posting pics from Saint Gregory of Nyssa. They aren't trying to be Orthodox and more than Br. Robert Lentz (https://www.trinitystores.com/store/artist/Robert-Lentz) is trying to make Orthodox icons...meaning, they aren't.

In terms of those of us who truly identify as Anglo-Orthodox or Eastern Rite Anglicans, these postmodern pseudo-Orthodox icons don't represent us.

In terms of my previous "Not true" comment it had to do with all bets being off for Eastern Rite Anglicansim. Basically, it will depend upon bishops aligning their dioceses with the mission of the Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism. We will have options available for individuals to join as members, but also for dioceses, congregations, and communities to join as affiliates. By a diocese becoming an affiliate they will support their congregations in using the Eastern Rites. It is entirely feasible.

Apologies for my contributions. I really don't think that those images represented Eastern Rite Anglicans. I just find bears in any non-violent context to be funny.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2013, 09:24:41 PM »

Ick. I looked at the website. The outside of the building looks nice, then it just goes downhill.  The "icons" of the "saints" are hideous!  How could someone feel comfortable worshiping there in the midst of sacrilege?

You have to accept certain other kinds of sacrilege to accept the pictures and the people on the walls.
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« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2013, 09:26:12 PM »

Does the horse have a halo?  Tongue

St. Seraphim's bear doesn't have one, which I think is just appalling.
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« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2013, 09:27:50 PM »



Shameful and appalling.



Now that's a horrible way to talk about Yanni!

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh ... but where's his piano?

You almost owed me a new laptop.  laugh

When they add an "icon" of Liberace they'll be sure to include the piano.
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« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2013, 09:42:16 PM »

People need to get over posting pics from Saint Gregory of Nyssa. They aren't trying to be Orthodox and more than Br. Robert Lentz (https://www.trinitystores.com/store/artist/Robert-Lentz) is trying to make Orthodox icons...meaning, they aren't.

In terms of those of us who truly identify as Anglo-Orthodox or Eastern Rite Anglicans, these postmodern pseudo-Orthodox icons don't represent us.

In terms of my previous "Not true" comment it had to do with all bets being off for Eastern Rite Anglicansim. Basically, it will depend upon bishops aligning their dioceses with the mission of the Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism. We will have options available for individuals to join as members, but also for dioceses, congregations, and communities to join as affiliates. By a diocese becoming an affiliate they will support their congregations in using the Eastern Rites. It is entirely feasible.



People in the Church tend to get upset when people outside the Church co-opt the Church's treasures as if they had a right.
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« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2013, 09:50:52 PM »

As far as I know the ECUSA, I am sure there would be a way to accomodate an Eastern rite, either in an existing parish, on an experimental base in addition to the main service (if the rector and the vestry of that parish agree) or even creating a special ministry in a diocese with a status different from a regular parish. In that case, it would depend on the bishop.
So I guess Kathy would grow a beard then?

PP

Who's Kathy?


The Presiding Bishopess, I imagine.
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« Reply #70 on: May 30, 2013, 09:54:06 PM »

As far as I know the ECUSA, I am sure there would be a way to accomodate an Eastern rite, either in an existing parish, on an experimental base in addition to the main service (if the rector and the vestry of that parish agree) or even creating a special ministry in a diocese with a status different from a regular parish. In that case, it would depend on the bishop.
So I guess Kathy would grow a beard then?

PP

Who's Kathy?


The Presiding Bishopess, I imagine.

Maybe she goes by Kitty.
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« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2013, 09:57:44 PM »

People need to get over posting pics from Saint Gregory of Nyssa. They aren't trying to be Orthodox and more than Br. Robert Lentz (https://www.trinitystores.com/store/artist/Robert-Lentz) is trying to make Orthodox icons...meaning, they aren't.

I've found that the Orthodox are quite possessive about "Eastern-ness".
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« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2013, 10:02:57 PM »

People need to get over posting pics from Saint Gregory of Nyssa. They aren't trying to be Orthodox and more than Br. Robert Lentz (https://www.trinitystores.com/store/artist/Robert-Lentz) is trying to make Orthodox icons...meaning, they aren't.

I've found that the Orthodox are quite possessive about "Eastern-ness".

Easy there, Melkite. Making sweeping generalizations about a religious group is a privilege enjoyed only by us Orthodox. Tongue
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« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2013, 10:28:26 PM »

People need to get over posting pics from Saint Gregory of Nyssa. They aren't trying to be Orthodox and more than Br. Robert Lentz (https://www.trinitystores.com/store/artist/Robert-Lentz) is trying to make Orthodox icons...meaning, they aren't.

In terms of those of us who truly identify as Anglo-Orthodox or Eastern Rite Anglicans, these postmodern pseudo-Orthodox icons don't represent us.

In terms of my previous "Not true" comment it had to do with all bets being off for Eastern Rite Anglicansim. Basically, it will depend upon bishops aligning their dioceses with the mission of the Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism. We will have options available for individuals to join as members, but also for dioceses, congregations, and communities to join as affiliates. By a diocese becoming an affiliate they will support their congregations in using the Eastern Rites. It is entirely feasible.

People in the Church tend to get upset when people outside the Church co-opt the Church's treasures as if they had a right.

You mean like when [Roman-Rite] Catholics have the eucharist?

People need to get over posting pics from Saint Gregory of Nyssa. They aren't trying to be Orthodox and more than Br. Robert Lentz (https://www.trinitystores.com/store/artist/Robert-Lentz) is trying to make Orthodox icons...meaning, they aren't.

I've found that the Orthodox are quite possessive about "Eastern-ness".

Easy there, Melkite. Making sweeping generalizations about a religious group is a privilege enjoyed only by us Orthodox. Tongue

 angel
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« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2013, 11:05:48 PM »

In terms of my previous "Not true" comment it had to do with all bets being off for Eastern Rite Anglicansim. Basically, it will depend upon bishops aligning their dioceses with the mission of the Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism. We will have options available for individuals to join as members, but also for dioceses, congregations, and communities to join as affiliates. By a diocese becoming an affiliate they will support their congregations in using the Eastern Rites. It is entirely feasible.



What is the point of "Eastern Rite Anglicanism"?  The Mar Thoma Church in India was referenced somewhere, but that was a schism from the Orthodox that retained a simplified Eastern rite (Syriac).  What's the point of introducing an Eastern rite into the Anglican Church?  The name Anglican is presumably derived from the Latin for England...it doesn't get any more Western than that.  So why the push for an Eastern rite? 

I'm not trying to be disrespectful or dismissive, nor am I "protective" of Eastern-ness as some are alleged to be.  I just don't get it.  Forgive me if this has already been covered in this thread or elsewhere, I just don't recall having seen it, maybe I skimmed through that part.   
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« Reply #75 on: May 30, 2013, 11:31:02 PM »

A good question, though we should remember when bringing up distinctions of East/West that there are plenty of places that are geographically Western but definitely have their roots in Eastern praxis in one way or another. Mozarabic chant and iconography comes to mind, and there are even some very traditional Protestants who preserve chant styles that bring to mind non-Chalcedonian Orthodox forms that I'm fairly confident never made it as far as the Outer Hebrides! (I'm thinking this Gaelic chanting would be more at home with the Tewahedo than any Anglican, "Eastern" or otherwise.)
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« Reply #76 on: May 30, 2013, 11:56:04 PM »

As far as I know the ECUSA, I am sure there would be a way to accomodate an Eastern rite, either in an existing parish, on an experimental base in addition to the main service (if the rector and the vestry of that parish agree) or even creating a special ministry in a diocese with a status different from a regular parish. In that case, it would depend on the bishop.
So I guess Kathy would grow a beard then?

PP

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The Presiding Bishopess, I imagine.

I could have sworn there was some sort of rule about having to use titles.......  police
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« Reply #77 on: May 31, 2013, 12:01:52 AM »

People need to get over posting pics from Saint Gregory of Nyssa. They aren't trying to be Orthodox and more than Br. Robert Lentz (https://www.trinitystores.com/store/artist/Robert-Lentz) is trying to make Orthodox icons...meaning, they aren't.

In terms of those of us who truly identify as Anglo-Orthodox or Eastern Rite Anglicans, these postmodern pseudo-Orthodox icons don't represent us.

In terms of my previous "Not true" comment it had to do with all bets being off for Eastern Rite Anglicansim. Basically, it will depend upon bishops aligning their dioceses with the mission of the Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism. We will have options available for individuals to join as members, but also for dioceses, congregations, and communities to join as affiliates. By a diocese becoming an affiliate they will support their congregations in using the Eastern Rites. It is entirely feasible.



Perhaps there was a miscommunication then; I thought you were saying something I said was not true.  I agree wholeheartedly with your post, and truly wish you success, because I can think of several formerly Orthodox Episcopalians who would love to attend an Eastern Rite Episcopal service, if not in fact join an Eastern Rite Episcopal parish.
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« Reply #78 on: May 31, 2013, 12:05:55 AM »

People need to get over posting pics from Saint Gregory of Nyssa. They aren't trying to be Orthodox and more than Br. Robert Lentz (https://www.trinitystores.com/store/artist/Robert-Lentz) is trying to make Orthodox icons...meaning, they aren't.

In terms of those of us who truly identify as Anglo-Orthodox or Eastern Rite Anglicans, these postmodern pseudo-Orthodox icons don't represent us.

In terms of my previous "Not true" comment it had to do with all bets being off for Eastern Rite Anglicansim. Basically, it will depend upon bishops aligning their dioceses with the mission of the Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism. We will have options available for individuals to join as members, but also for dioceses, congregations, and communities to join as affiliates. By a diocese becoming an affiliate they will support their congregations in using the Eastern Rites. It is entirely feasible.



People in the Church tend to get upset when people outside the Church co-opt the Church's treasures as if they had a right.

You remind me a lot of the Disciple John, especially when Mark recollects him in chapter nine of of the second Gospel.
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« Reply #79 on: May 31, 2013, 12:07:34 AM »

As far as I know the ECUSA, I am sure there would be a way to accomodate an Eastern rite, either in an existing parish, on an experimental base in addition to the main service (if the rector and the vestry of that parish agree) or even creating a special ministry in a diocese with a status different from a regular parish. In that case, it would depend on the bishop.
So I guess Kathy would grow a beard then?

PP

Who's Kathy?


The Presiding Bishopess, I imagine.

I could have sworn there was some sort of rule about having to use titles.......  police


Only when they're real.
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« Reply #80 on: May 31, 2013, 12:08:11 AM »

As far as I know the ECUSA, I am sure there would be a way to accomodate an Eastern rite, either in an existing parish, on an experimental base in addition to the main service (if the rector and the vestry of that parish agree) or even creating a special ministry in a diocese with a status different from a regular parish. In that case, it would depend on the bishop.
So I guess Kathy would grow a beard then?

PP

Who's Kathy?


The Presiding Bishopess, I imagine.

I could have sworn there was some sort of rule about having to use titles.......  police


I think that goes for Church leaders only, not social clubs pretending to be religions.  Wink


EDIT: Dang, dzheremi beat me to it.
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« Reply #81 on: May 31, 2013, 12:34:27 AM »

I could have sworn there was some sort of rule about having to use titles.......  police


Only when they're real.

Well, last I heard, Katharine Jefferts Schori is a real person in a real leadership position in a real religious organization.  We can disagree on whether it is a "Church", whether she is a "bishop", or any number of things, but why be needlessly snarky?  Smiley 
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« Reply #82 on: May 31, 2013, 12:50:00 AM »

I could have sworn there was some sort of rule about having to use titles.......  police


Only when they're real.

Well, last I heard, Katharine Jefferts Schori is a real person in a real leadership position in a real religious organization.  We can disagree on whether it is a "Church", whether she is a "bishop", or any number of things, but why be needlessly snarky?  Smiley 

You must be new to the internet.
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« Reply #83 on: May 31, 2013, 01:23:04 AM »

You must be new to the internet.

Not really...more like "on the internet but not of the internet".  Tongue
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« Reply #84 on: May 31, 2013, 01:23:35 AM »

Oh, you silly Anglicans, always trying to play Liturgical Christianity with the big boys!

Really though, "Kathy" is just as bad as "Bart" or "Franky."

EDIT: I guess H.H. Pope Tawadros II is spared from snarky internet put-downery, on a count of having a name with no apparent diminutive.
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« Reply #85 on: May 31, 2013, 01:35:37 AM »

A poster referred to HH as "Taw" recently, if I recall correctly. Seems right to me, given its correspondence to "Theo" (Tawadros = Theodore). Don't know if that's a standard diminutive form, though.
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« Reply #86 on: May 31, 2013, 01:45:39 AM »

A poster referred to HH as "Taw" recently, if I recall correctly. Seems right to me, given its correspondence to "Theo" (Tawadros = Theodore). Don't know if that's a standard diminutive form, though.

That would be "Teddy" (like Teddy Roosevelt).
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« Reply #87 on: May 31, 2013, 01:47:34 AM »

Sorry, I should have specified that I was talking about diminutives in Arabic (Taw for Tawadros, not Teddy for Theodore). I don't know anything about diminutives in Arabic, though I feel like I probably should. Embarrassed
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« Reply #88 on: May 31, 2013, 02:49:11 AM »



Shameful and appalling.



Now that's a horrible way to talk about Yanni!

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh ... but where's his piano?

You almost owed me a new laptop.  laugh

When they add an "icon" of Liberace they'll be sure to include the piano.

I. Love. You.  Kiss Kiss laugh
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« Reply #89 on: May 31, 2013, 02:53:44 AM »

People need to get over posting pics from Saint Gregory of Nyssa. They aren't trying to be Orthodox and more than Br. Robert Lentz (https://www.trinitystores.com/store/artist/Robert-Lentz) is trying to make Orthodox icons...meaning, they aren't.

In terms of those of us who truly identify as Anglo-Orthodox or Eastern Rite Anglicans, these postmodern pseudo-Orthodox icons don't represent us.

In terms of my previous "Not true" comment it had to do with all bets being off for Eastern Rite Anglicansim. Basically, it will depend upon bishops aligning their dioceses with the mission of the Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism. We will have options available for individuals to join as members, but also for dioceses, congregations, and communities to join as affiliates. By a diocese becoming an affiliate they will support their congregations in using the Eastern Rites. It is entirely feasible.



People in the Church tend to get upset when people outside the Church co-opt the Church's treasures as if they had a right.

Precisely, my dear Shanghaiski. Precisely. Dilettantism should have no place in faith and worship.
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« Reply #90 on: May 31, 2013, 06:13:32 AM »

Sorry, I should have specified that I was talking about diminutives in Arabic (Taw for Tawadros, not Teddy for Theodore). I don't know anything about diminutives in Arabic, though I feel like I probably should. Embarrassed

LARPing?

 Wink
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« Reply #91 on: June 03, 2013, 04:54:30 PM »

What is the point of "Eastern Rite Anglicanism"? 
My thoughts exactly.
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« Reply #92 on: June 04, 2013, 11:26:20 AM »

I could have sworn there was some sort of rule about having to use titles.......  police


Only when they're real.

Well, last I heard, Katharine Jefferts Schori is a real person in a real leadership position in a real religious organization.  We can disagree on whether it is a "Church", whether she is a "bishop", or any number of things, but why be needlessly snarky?  Smiley 

You must be new to the internet.

Actually, before the internet began, I already was. And people acted badly back then too. But if I am expected to use titles for every schismatic out there, it is right and proper that you do the same for my clergy. Next time, I'm going to object to the management.
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« Reply #93 on: June 04, 2013, 11:33:39 AM »

I lump Kathy Schori, Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs in the same category. Looney religious weirdos that I don't have the time to figure out what their "titles" might be.  Although, Kathy hasn't molested children (that I know of anyways), so I guess she is a step ahead of Jeffs.
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« Reply #94 on: June 04, 2013, 11:42:13 AM »

I lump Kathy Schori, Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs in the same category. Looney religious weirdos that I don't have the time to figure out what their "titles" might be.  Although, Kathy hasn't molested children (that I know of anyways), so I guess she is a step ahead of Jeffs.
It's hardly fair to lump the former three with Jeffs.
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« Reply #95 on: June 04, 2013, 11:47:32 AM »

I lump Kathy Schori, Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs in the same category. Looney religious weirdos that I don't have the time to figure out what their "titles" might be.  Although, Kathy hasn't molested children (that I know of anyways), so I guess she is a step ahead of Jeffs.
It's hardly fair to lump the former three with Jeffs.

Well, comparison to Jeffs is a bit incindiary.  I didn't not mean to compare them on a behavioral level.  More of a legitimacy level.  I see Schori's group of churches having the same element of truth as CS, LDS and FLDS. i.e. not very much.
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« Reply #96 on: June 04, 2013, 12:31:19 PM »

....which is surely why we recite the creed every Sunday, and they do not.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #97 on: June 04, 2013, 01:12:34 PM »

....which is surely why we recite the creed every Sunday, and they do not.  Roll Eyes


...now if only she would follow the Tradition that the Creed came from.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #98 on: June 04, 2013, 02:43:53 PM »

More of a legitimacy level.  I see Schori's group of churches having the same element of truth as CS, LDS and FLDS. i.e. not very much.
I'll readily say that the EC-USA has fallen a long way in the last 30 or 40 years (and I sympathize with both the ACNA, which recently "saw the light", and the Continuing Anglicans who did so decades ago) but these comparisons ^^ seem to me little more than childish name calling.
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« Reply #99 on: June 04, 2013, 03:07:53 PM »

More of a legitimacy level.  I see Schori's group of churches having the same element of truth as CS, LDS and FLDS. i.e. not very much.
I'll readily say that the EC-USA has fallen a long way in the last 30 or 40 years (and I sympathize with both the ACNA, which recently "saw the light", and the Continuing Anglicans who did so decades ago) but these comparisons ^^ seem to me little more than childish name calling.

Well, we are certainly all entitled to our own opinion.  For the record, I did not call anyone names.  But the doctrinal direction of the EC is moving as far into heresy as the LDS, just on different points.  At least they don't believe that God lives on Kolob.  Cheesy
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« Reply #100 on: June 05, 2013, 02:49:44 AM »

I am reviewing the issue of clerical titles and how to apply our rules to the violations I've seen on this thread. Do be aware, however, that this forum does expect that every one of us show respect for clergy, even the female bishops of a church the majority of us deem to be heretical, by using the titles appropriate to their office. That means that we are each required to refer to Bishop Katherine Jefferts Schori as at least Bishop Katherine, NOT as Kathy or Kitty or whatever disrespectful name you might have for her. Thanks.
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« Reply #101 on: June 05, 2013, 10:44:56 AM »

I am reviewing the issue of clerical titles and how to apply our rules to the violations I've seen on this thread. Do be aware, however, that this forum does expect that every one of us show respect for clergy, even the female bishops of a church the majority of us deem to be heretical, by using the titles appropriate to their office. That means that we are each required to refer to Bishop Katherine Jefferts Schori as at least Bishop Katherine, NOT as Kathy or Kitty or whatever disrespectful name you might have for her. Thanks.
How's Dr. Schori? No problems there? Smiley

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« Reply #102 on: June 05, 2013, 10:47:03 AM »

How's Dr. Schori? No problems there? Smiley

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How about Katherine of Nevada?
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« Reply #103 on: June 05, 2013, 12:17:00 PM »

I am reviewing the issue of clerical titles and how to apply our rules to the violations I've seen on this thread. Do be aware, however, that this forum does expect that every one of us show respect for clergy, even the female bishops of a church the majority of us deem to be heretical, by using the titles appropriate to their office. That means that we are each required to refer to Bishop Katherine Jefferts Schori as at least Bishop Katherine, NOT as Kathy or Kitty or whatever disrespectful name you might have for her. Thanks.
How's Dr. Schori? No problems there? Smiley

PP

How's Dr. Schori? No problems there? Smiley

PP

How about Katherine of Nevada?

If you have any questions about what titles to use, I ask that you bring them to me via private message so we can keep from derailing this thread. Thank you.
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« Reply #104 on: June 05, 2013, 02:16:32 PM »

As you wish Smiley
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« Reply #105 on: June 05, 2013, 03:04:07 PM »

So, as I was saying, Bishop Dr. Katharine Jefferts Schori, 26th Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church of America and Primate of the Anglican Communion, is one step above President and Prophet, Seer and Revelator Warren Jeffs, President of the Priesthood of the Fundamentalism Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in that she has not, at least to our knowledge, molested any small children.

She does, however, bear a striking resemblance to the bishop in the Princess Bride.





Now THIS was a bit below the belt perhaps.  laugh
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« Reply #106 on: June 05, 2013, 04:17:46 PM »

A good question, though we should remember when bringing up distinctions of East/West that there are plenty of places that are geographically Western but definitely have their roots in Eastern praxis in one way or another. Mozarabic chant and iconography comes to mind, and there are even some very traditional Protestants who preserve chant styles that bring to mind non-Chalcedonian Orthodox forms that I'm fairly confident never made it as far as the Outer Hebrides! (I'm thinking this Gaelic chanting would be more at home with the Tewahedo than any Anglican, "Eastern" or otherwise.)

Wow, it sounds almost exactly like an Ethiopian Liturgy! How is that possible?
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« Reply #107 on: June 05, 2013, 04:31:54 PM »

A poster referred to HH as "Taw" recently, if I recall correctly. Seems right to me, given its correspondence to "Theo" (Tawadros = Theodore). Don't know if that's a standard diminutive form, though.

You just take the first or second consonent, whichever sounds better & if neither does just make one up, & double it. Susu, Mimi, Kiki, Juju, Marmar, Foofoo. I guess he'd be "Tutu" Cheesy

I have a friend named Dina, who's parents always called "Doodoo" growing up- obviously not knowing what its understood for in English.
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« Reply #108 on: June 05, 2013, 05:32:52 PM »

She does, however, bear a striking resemblance to the bishop in the Princess Bride.





Now THIS was a bit below the belt perhaps.  laugh

That it is, but he probably got used to people making fun of him a long time ago.
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« Reply #109 on: June 05, 2013, 10:30:03 PM »

I lump Kathy Schori, Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs in the same category. Looney religious weirdos that I don't have the time to figure out what their "titles" might be.  Although, Kathy hasn't molested children (that I know of anyways), so I guess she is a step ahead of Jeffs.
It's hardly fair to lump the former three with Jeffs.

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« Reply #110 on: June 05, 2013, 10:36:31 PM »

People need to get over posting pics from Saint Gregory of Nyssa. They aren't trying to be Orthodox and more than Br. Robert Lentz (https://www.trinitystores.com/store/artist/Robert-Lentz) is trying to make Orthodox icons...meaning, they aren't.

In terms of those of us who truly identify as Anglo-Orthodox or Eastern Rite Anglicans, these postmodern pseudo-Orthodox icons don't represent us.

In terms of my previous "Not true" comment it had to do with all bets being off for Eastern Rite Anglicansim. Basically, it will depend upon bishops aligning their dioceses with the mission of the Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism. We will have options available for individuals to join as members, but also for dioceses, congregations, and communities to join as affiliates. By a diocese becoming an affiliate they will support their congregations in using the Eastern Rites. It is entirely feasible.

People in the Church tend to get upset when people outside the Church co-opt the Church's treasures as if they had a right.

You mean like when [Roman-Rite] Catholics have the eucharist?

Oh, like in Lanciano?
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« Reply #111 on: June 06, 2013, 03:45:09 AM »

....which is surely why we recite the creed every Sunday, and they do not.

Is it the one from Constantinople 381?
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« Reply #112 on: June 06, 2013, 06:46:55 AM »

People in the Church tend to get upset when people outside the Church co-opt the Church's treasures as if they had a right.

You mean like when [Roman-Rite] Catholics have the eucharist?

Oh, like in Lanciano?

Well, sure, and everywhere else they have the Eucharist ... are they "co-opt[ing] the Church's treasures as if they had a right"?
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« Reply #113 on: June 06, 2013, 06:56:20 AM »


This image hurts my eyes.
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« Reply #114 on: June 06, 2013, 09:10:01 AM »

There is alot that hurts my eyes about this image.
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« Reply #115 on: June 06, 2013, 10:11:19 PM »

This image hurts my eyes.

It was not exactly a favorite in Anglican Land either.
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« Reply #116 on: June 06, 2013, 10:38:34 PM »

This image hurts my eyes.

It was not exactly a favorite in Anglican Land either.


I have a question, but there's no real nice way of asking it, and that makes me feel bad because I really don't want to poke fun.  Why does she (and other clergy) wear such vestments? 

There seems to be a tendency in Western churches to simplify vestments, and that's fine (you don't have to raid all the brocade from Lalame LIKE SOME PEOPLE Smiley), but it can still be done with good taste.  Why does tackiness (or worse) seem so appealing?  RC bishops do this sort of thing too, but it always seems to be a little worse on the Episcopalian side.  RC's will also use nice vestments, or at least OK vestments, and I'm sure Episcopalians must have them too, but where are they?  No offence, but I would've thought women clergy would have a better fashion sense.     
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« Reply #117 on: June 06, 2013, 10:40:30 PM »

This image hurts my eyes.

It was not exactly a favorite in Anglican Land either.

Even among the "Episcopalian" part? Or just among other Anglican provinces?
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« Reply #118 on: June 07, 2013, 06:02:41 AM »

This image hurts my eyes.

It was not exactly a favorite in Anglican Land either.


I have a question, but there's no real nice way of asking it, and that makes me feel bad because I really don't want to poke fun.  Why does she (and other clergy) wear such vestments? 

There seems to be a tendency in Western churches to simplify vestments, and that's fine (you don't have to raid all the brocade from Lalame LIKE SOME PEOPLE Smiley), but it can still be done with good taste.  Why does tackiness (or worse) seem so appealing?  RC bishops do this sort of thing too, but it always seems to be a little worse on the Episcopalian side.  RC's will also use nice vestments, or at least OK vestments, and I'm sure Episcopalians must have them too, but where are they?  No offence, but I would've thought women clergy would have a better fashion sense.     

My priest always wears very nice vestments, that are not at all tacky.
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« Reply #119 on: June 07, 2013, 09:02:33 AM »

This image hurts my eyes.

It was not exactly a favorite in Anglican Land either.


I have a question, but there's no real nice way of asking it, and that makes me feel bad because I really don't want to poke fun.  Why does she (and other clergy) wear such vestments? 

There seems to be a tendency in Western churches to simplify vestments, and that's fine (you don't have to raid all the brocade from Lalame LIKE SOME PEOPLE Smiley), but it can still be done with good taste.  Why does tackiness (or worse) seem so appealing?  RC bishops do this sort of thing too, but it always seems to be a little worse on the Episcopalian side.  RC's will also use nice vestments, or at least OK vestments, and I'm sure Episcopalians must have them too, but where are they?  No offence, but I would've thought women clergy would have a better fashion sense.     
Well, their Church is laughable, so why not their vestments?

PP
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« Reply #120 on: June 07, 2013, 10:58:03 AM »

My priest always wears very nice vestments, that are not at all tacky.

Maybe s/he should be a bishop.  Smiley
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« Reply #121 on: June 07, 2013, 11:06:34 AM »

This image hurts my eyes.

It was not exactly a favorite in Anglican Land either.


I have a question, but there's no real nice way of asking it, and that makes me feel bad because I really don't want to poke fun.  Why does she (and other clergy) wear such vestments? 

There seems to be a tendency in Western churches to simplify vestments, and that's fine (you don't have to raid all the brocade from Lalame LIKE SOME PEOPLE Smiley), but it can still be done with good taste.  Why does tackiness (or worse) seem so appealing?  RC bishops do this sort of thing too, but it always seems to be a little worse on the Episcopalian side.  RC's will also use nice vestments, or at least OK vestments, and I'm sure Episcopalians must have them too, but where are they?  No offence, but I would've thought women clergy would have a better fashion sense.     
Well, their Church is laughable, so why not their vestments?

PP

Yeah, The Episcopal Church used to be all style and no substance.  Now they don't even have style.
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« Reply #122 on: June 07, 2013, 11:13:34 AM »

This image hurts my eyes.
There is alot that hurts my eyes about this image.
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Who needs arguments against female bishops when you have that photo?
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« Reply #123 on: June 07, 2013, 11:17:16 AM »

Well, here is a male priest rocking it in an interesting manner.

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« Reply #124 on: June 07, 2013, 11:20:22 AM »

Well, here is a male priest rocking it in an interesting manner.



The Bishop of Tetris?
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« Reply #125 on: June 07, 2013, 11:25:25 AM »

That cross. That "mitre". Ugh.
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« Reply #126 on: June 07, 2013, 11:33:06 AM »

And just so we aren't just picking on Episcopalians, here is a Lutheran rosary (?) celebrating the "femininity of Christ"

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« Reply #127 on: June 07, 2013, 11:43:15 AM »

And just so we aren't just picking on Episcopalians, here is a Lutheran rosary (?) celebrating the "femininity of Christ"



My Pagan friends would die laughing.

The tiger's eye is nice, though.
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« Reply #128 on: June 07, 2013, 03:16:56 PM »

And just so we aren't just picking on Episcopalians, here is a Lutheran rosary (?) celebrating the "femininity of Christ"



The Her Church movement, right?
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« Reply #129 on: June 07, 2013, 03:37:13 PM »

Yep.  If you want to see a true assault to one's eyes, go to their website.  Worst webpage design ever.
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« Reply #130 on: June 07, 2013, 04:02:40 PM »

Yep.  If you want to see a true assault to one's eyes, go to their website.  Worst webpage design ever.

Unfortunately, my eyes have already been assaulted once to know that.
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« Reply #131 on: June 07, 2013, 04:19:57 PM »

And just so we aren't just picking on Episcopalians, here is a Lutheran rosary (?) celebrating the "femininity of Christ"



My Pagan friends would die laughing.

At what? The whole neo-Pagan movement is almost entirely kitsch of this order.
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« Reply #132 on: June 07, 2013, 04:26:12 PM »

My Pagan friends would die laughing.

At what? The whole neo-Pagan movement is almost entirely kitsch of this order.

Mostly at the attempt at co-opting the goddess image (the pendant) into Christianity, and with an idea like 'the femininity of Christ' (lolwut?), at that.
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« Reply #133 on: June 07, 2013, 04:38:39 PM »

And just so we aren't just picking on Episcopalians, here is a Lutheran rosary (?) celebrating the "femininity of Christ"


Oh, so that's what a Lutheran rosary looks like. I'm kidding of course, but I can image a lot of Catholics, that want to be ecumenical but aren't very knowledgeable of other groups, saying that.
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« Reply #134 on: June 07, 2013, 04:47:08 PM »

My Pagan friends would die laughing.

At what? The whole neo-Pagan movement is almost entirely kitsch of this order.

Mostly at the attempt at co-opting the goddess image (the pendant) into Christianity, and with an idea like 'the femininity of Christ' (lolwut?), at that.

I think they "co-opt" more than just the image.

Quote
Hail Goddess full of grace.

Blessed are you
  and blessed are all the fruits
  of your womb.

For you are the MOTHER of us all.
   Hear us now
  and in all our needs.

O blessed be, O blessed be.  Amen

(adapted from Carol Christ)

From their Goddess Rosary page. They really go all out with the goddess stuff.
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« Reply #135 on: June 07, 2013, 05:21:54 PM »

My Pagan friends would die laughing.

At what? The whole neo-Pagan movement is almost entirely kitsch of this order.

Mostly at the attempt at co-opting the goddess image (the pendant) into Christianity, and with an idea like 'the femininity of Christ' (lolwut?), at that.

I think they "co-opt" more than just the image.

Quote
Hail Goddess full of grace.

Blessed are you
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  of your womb.

For you are the MOTHER of us all.
   Hear us now
  and in all our needs.

O blessed be, O blessed be.  Amen

(adapted from Carol Christ)

From their Goddess Rosary page. They really go all out with the goddess stuff.

Don't know whether to ROFL or ralph.
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« Reply #136 on: June 09, 2013, 04:56:16 PM »

Seeing that this thread has devolved into a game of Bash the Anglicans and has long since stopped being an actual discussion of Anglo-Orthodoxy, I am locking this thread until I can decide whether and how to split it.
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« Reply #137 on: June 11, 2013, 02:06:55 AM »

On second thought, I'm just going to keep this thread locked.
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