Author Topic: very early forms of church government  (Read 2045 times)

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Offline WPM

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very early forms of church government
« on: January 15, 2012, 10:30:04 PM »
I know a little about early forms of church government. 

Offline ialmisry

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2012, 10:52:04 PM »
I know a little about early forms of church government. 
Apostles, then bishops.
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2012, 11:35:44 PM »
I know a little about early forms of church government. 

This is good.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2012, 03:23:57 AM »
And...
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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2012, 10:21:02 AM »
I know a little about early forms of church government. 
Do you know enough to be dangerous, or do you wish to know more? I guess I'm having trouble understanding why you say this.
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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2012, 10:29:50 AM »
I know a little about early forms of church government. 

Are you writing a paper?  :)
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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2012, 10:31:13 AM »
I know a little about early forms of church government. 

Regarding PetertheAleut's post above, I also have to ask: is there anything specific you want to know or discuss?

Your post, since it has no question mark, reads as a statement much as if I posted: I know a little about women.
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

Offline Hamartolos

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2012, 12:06:09 PM »
I know a little about early forms of church government. 

Regarding PetertheAleut's post above, I also have to ask: is there anything specific you want to know or discuss?

Your post, since it has no question mark, reads as a statement much as if I posted: I know a little about women.

HA!!
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Offline Scotty

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2012, 12:23:00 PM »
I know a little about early forms of church government. 

Same!

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2012, 12:26:54 PM »
I know a little about early forms of church government. 

Regarding PetertheAleut's post above, I also have to ask: is there anything specific you want to know or discuss?

Your post, since it has no question mark, reads as a statement much as if I posted: I know a little about women.

You would think that I would know more after all these years, but I too know a little about women. In fact, I know even less about women than early church government or the NFL playoffs.

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2012, 12:32:29 PM »
Surely no man understands women. Nonetheless, I think the first few rules you learn are the most important. Those being:

"Yes dear, the meatloaf tastes delicious!"

"No! You don't have a big butt, so how could that dress make it look big? You look great in that dress!"

"Yeah, maybe I should stop and ask for directions"

And of course, the most common one:

"You are right, my love!"
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Offline That person

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2012, 07:14:07 PM »
As I understand it, the form of church government wasn't really set in stone in the Early Church, since the words "priest" and "bishop" are used interchangeably on the New Testament. It'd be interesting to learn about how a clear hierarchy emerged from it.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2012, 07:36:10 PM »
Fr Thomas Hopko has about 25+ hours worth of podcasts on the role of Bishops. I have listened to the first 7 and that only takes you to the 4th/5th century. It is on Ancient Faith Radio.

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2012, 10:07:25 PM »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Doubting Thomas

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2012, 12:15:55 PM »
The evidence from the Bible shows that initially the terms for 'bishop' and 'presbyter' were used interchangeably to describe the same office in the Church.  However, it must be kept in mind that the Scriptures were written during the time when the Apostles were still alive and were the de facto overseers (or acting bishops) over the whole church.  In fact, one can see the transition beginning even in ACTS to what would become the pattern for monoepiscopacy that would ultimately followed by all the local churches.  

This transition is seen midway in Luke's account at the Church of Jerusalam after the apostles are dispersed by the persecution.  From that point on we see references to 'James and the elders with him'. The Lord's brother was basically the chief pastor (or bishop/presbyter) of the Jerusalem church, which can be clearly seen by his role in the council of Jerusalem among other things.  So even though the terms continued to be interchangeable for a while (particularly in the Western Churches), the basic pattern of one 'chief bishop/presbyter with his associate bishop/presbyters' was set while the apostles were still alive.  We know from Eusebius, that James was succeeded in his 'episcopal office' by his cousin Simeon, and from then on there continued to be one particular man who was seen as THE 'bishop' at a time.  By the early 2nd century, Ignatius was using the terms 'bishop' and 'presbyter' to refer to the distinct offices--the 'chief shepherd' and the 'associate/assistant shepherds', if you will--and he named a few of them in the letters he wrote on his way to his martyrdom (including Polycarp).  Even in Rome, where the terms remained interchangeable for good while longer, there was according to Eusebius an historical record of one man holding the 'episcopal office' (even if he used the term anachronistically) at time going back to the Apostles and starting with Linus.

BTW--the roles of Timothy and Titus are also important in understanding the development of the monoepiscopacy.  Here were two men, who weren't Apostles themselves, but who had authority from the apostles to appoint/ordain elders/overseers in their respective locations (Ephesus and Crete).  They were regarded by Eusebius (and presumably by the sources he used) as the first 'Bishops' of Ephesus and Crete.  No doubt, other apostolic co-workers had similar oversight roles in other cities on behalf of the Apostles.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 12:24:49 PM by Doubting Thomas »
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Offline WPM

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2012, 10:50:48 PM »
There is a published book on early forms of church government. I would add that specific one to my small library. {[--}}
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 10:51:59 PM by WPM »

Offline WPM

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2012, 10:52:42 PM »
I know a little about early forms of church government. 

Are you writing a paper?  :)

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Offline alanscott

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2012, 12:43:20 PM »

"No! You don't have a big butt, so how could that dress make it look big? You look great in that dress!"


This worked very well for the first ten years or so of my marriage.
I have since refined it to something along the lines of: "No, that dress doesn't make you look nice. It is you that makes that dress look great!" 

There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2012, 03:36:09 PM »
Ask my husband for fashion judgements?
Please.
The man's been wearing the same kind of clothes (and in some cases, the actual clothes) since he was a teenager.
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2012, 03:48:30 PM »
I have since refined it to something along the lines of: "No, that dress doesn't make you look nice. It is you that makes that dress look great!" 

Aha! I may yet learn something about women :)

Ask my husband for fashion judgements?
Please.
The man's been wearing the same kind of clothes (and in some cases, the actual clothes) since he was a teenager.

The question isn't for a fashion judgment, it's so we have an opportunity to pay you women a compliment. We appreciate it, btw, because we're pretty clueless if left to our own devices :)
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2012, 04:16:48 PM »
because we're pretty clueless if left to our own devices :)

Really???!!!

True story: before Christmas I handed my husband an ad with a particular watch circled. I said (very slowly) "If you're wondering what to get me for Christmas, I would like to have this watch." (pointing to it) "This particular watch. Not another watch. This one."

Imagine my delight when I opened a box on Christmas morning only to find the exact watch I wanted. From my mother.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2012, 07:38:22 PM »

The man's been wearing the same kind of clothes (and in some cases, the actual clothes) since he was a teenager.
Whether or not that's a problem depends. I still have the shoes I wore to my wedding in 1975. They might have been worn a few times for various things just after that, but for the last 20 years or so, I've worn them only to weddings - including those of my own children in 2000 and 2009. Good style never goes out of fashion.

Offline xariskai

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2012, 08:58:29 PM »
Surely no man understands women. Nonetheless, I think the first few rules you learn are the most important. Those being:

"Yes dear, the meatloaf tastes delicious!"

"No! You don't have a big butt, so how could that dress make it look big? You look great in that dress!"

"Yeah, maybe I should stop and ask for directions"

And of course, the most common one:

"You are right, my love!"
Lol

This video has a few classic tips (including the crucial dress tip) http://youtu.be/d7Y8je7kqWU



Offline alanscott

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2012, 10:12:46 PM »
I have since refined it to something along the lines of: "No, that dress doesn't make you look nice. It is you that makes that dress look great!" 

Aha! I may yet learn something about women :)



Perhaps, but I would use caution learning it from me!  :laugh:


I suddenly feel if I should apologize to the OP for veering so far off subject?

Sorry WPM

There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.

Offline Basil 320

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2012, 12:19:15 AM »
Nothing wrong with a big butt, if it's shapely (ala J. Lo.) in my opinion.
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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2012, 02:17:38 PM »
I have since refined it to something along the lines of: "No, that dress doesn't make you look nice. It is you that makes that dress look great!" 

Aha! I may yet learn something about women :)



Perhaps, but I would use caution learning it from me!  :laugh:


I suddenly feel if I should apologize to the OP for veering so far off subject?

Sorry WPM


Yes, we have veered a ways off topic (speaking to everyone here), and I ask that we get back on topic. Thank you.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2012, 02:47:42 PM »
nvm...ot post.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 02:48:17 PM by Ortho_cat »

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2012, 02:45:30 PM »
I have since refined it to something along the lines of: "No, that dress doesn't make you look nice. It is you that makes that dress look great!" 

Aha! I may yet learn something about women :)



Perhaps, but I would use caution learning it from me!  :laugh:


I suddenly feel if I should apologize to the OP for veering so far off subject?

Sorry WPM


Yes, we have veered a ways off topic (speaking to everyone here), and I ask that we get back on topic. Thank you.

Please to explain what the original topic was? :D
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2012, 02:58:17 PM »
As I understand it, the form of church government wasn't really set in stone in the Early Church, since the words "priest" and "bishop" are used interchangeably on the New Testament. It'd be interesting to learn about how a clear hierarchy emerged from it. 

A clear hierarchy was present even before that point.

Multitude -> 70 Apostles -> 12 Apostles -> the 3 (Peter, James, John) -> God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2012, 04:14:48 PM »
As I understand it, the form of church government wasn't really set in stone in the Early Church, since the words "priest" and "bishop" are used interchangeably on the New Testament. It'd be interesting to learn about how a clear hierarchy emerged from it.
I'd start at the book of Acts.

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2012, 12:15:10 AM »
Quote
Yes, we have veered a ways off topic (speaking to everyone here), and I ask that we get back on topic. Thank you.

Please to explain what the original topic was? :D

;)  Something like this..  

I know a little about early forms of church government.  

This is good.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 12:16:29 AM by xariskai »

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2012, 12:18:38 AM »
As I understand it, the form of church government wasn't really set in stone in the Early Church, since the words "priest" and "bishop" are used interchangeably on the New Testament. It'd be interesting to learn about how a clear hierarchy emerged from it. 

A clear hierarchy was present even before that point.

Multitude -> 70 Apostles -> 12 Apostles -> the 3 (Peter, James, John) -> God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)

And where does St Paul fit in?


Offline Basil 320

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2012, 07:17:01 AM »
Hum, remember too, both Sts. Peter and Paul are referred to in Orthodox hymnology as "Chief Apostles."  In fact, it is not incorrect to have St. Paul depicted in the Pentecost Icon-"the Descent of the Holy Spirit," due to his significance to the growth of the Church, its expansion among the Gentiles, and his elaborate written articulation of the message of Christ, even though he was not present at the Pentecost.

It should also be noted that St. James, the Brother of the Lord, presided at the Council of Jerusalem, which set the pattern for conciliar order (governance) for the Church.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 07:19:30 AM by Basil 320 »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: very early forms of church government
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2012, 03:02:30 PM »
As I understand it, the form of church government wasn't really set in stone in the Early Church, since the words "priest" and "bishop" are used interchangeably on the New Testament. It'd be interesting to learn about how a clear hierarchy emerged from it. 

A clear hierarchy was present even before that point.

Multitude -> 70 Apostles -> 12 Apostles -> the 3 (Peter, James, John) -> God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)

And where does St Paul fit in? 

St Paul gets inserted; what is present above was delineated pre-Pentecost.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.