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Author Topic: Brother Nathanael  (Read 15546 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 14, 2012, 11:41:36 PM »

Not Sure Where to Post This....

As Anyone Heard Of This Person ,Jewish Orthodox Christian  Brother Nathanael,and  what he Has To Say About Jews ,Zionist, And  Politics...Here's a U=tub Video
Link ......http://www.youtube.com/results?search=Search&resnum=0&oi=spell&search_query=Brother+Nathanael&spell=1&sa=X
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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2012, 11:48:43 PM »

Not Sure Where to Post This....

As Anyone Heard Of This Person ,Jewish Orthodox Christian  Brother Nathanael,and  what he Has To Say About Jews ,Zionist, And  Politics...Here's a U=tub Video
Link ......http://www.youtube.com/results?search=Search&resnum=0&oi=spell&search_query=Brother+Nathanael&spell=1&sa=X
Yeah, his name comes up rather often on this forum, usually followed by a series of catcalls.
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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2012, 11:48:58 PM »

I think he posted here for a little while:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8691.msg115146.html#msg115146

If you do a search, you'll find other threads discussing him.
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2012, 12:00:53 AM »

I think he posted here for a little while:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8691.msg115146.html#msg115146

If you do a search, you'll find other threads discussing him.

I didn't Know .....Thanks..
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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2012, 04:03:13 AM »

I find his voice soothing... .. .
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« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2012, 09:42:05 AM »

I personally find no spiritual benefit in his speeches, or at least the ones I've listened to. He does claim on his webiste to be a ROCOR monk living seperately from the monastery where he first became a monk and lived for a number of years.
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« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2012, 01:31:13 PM »

I find his voice soothing... .. .

LOL...and his dancing?
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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2012, 03:21:09 PM »

Crazy outfits + crazy dancing + crazy ideas = Lady Gaga
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« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2012, 06:16:18 PM »

He's a white supremacist and I have a very low opinion of ROCA- Agafangel for allowing him to publicly rave without any repercussions.
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« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2012, 06:18:39 PM »

He's a white supremacist and I have a very low opinion of ROCA- Agafangel for allowing him to publicly rave without any repercussions.
He's actually Orthodox? I thought he was just playing the part, so to speak.
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« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2012, 09:15:04 PM »

He's a white supremacist and I have a very low opinion of ROCA- Agafangel for allowing him to publicly rave without any repercussions.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Br. Nathaniel is with ROCOR-MP under Met. Hilarion, or at least he was with ROCOR-MP back in July of 2011 according to what he said on his website.
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« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2012, 11:11:21 PM »

He's a white supremacist and I have a very low opinion of ROCA- Agafangel for allowing him to publicly rave without any repercussions.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Br. Nathaniel is with ROCOR-MP under Met. Hilarion, or at least he was with ROCOR-MP back in July of 2011 according to what he said on his website.

There seems to be no verifiable information that he was ever a.) Jewish or b.) Orthodox Christian.  I've read conflicting stories, but then again I haven't devoted more than 10 minutes of looking either.
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« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2012, 11:28:46 PM »

He's a white supremacist and I have a very low opinion of ROCA- Agafangel for allowing him to publicly rave without any repercussions.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Br. Nathaniel is with ROCOR-MP under Met. Hilarion, or at least he was with ROCOR-MP back in July of 2011 according to what he said on his website.

There seems to be no verifiable information that he was ever a.) Jewish or b.) Orthodox Christian.  I've read conflicting stories, but then again I haven't devoted more than 10 minutes of looking either.

Yea I went looking on his website awhile ago and posted on this board about it, as I was curious about it myself. Anyways here's the post I made which quotes where Br. Nathaniel claims to be with ROCOR-MP under Met. Hilarion, how he goes to the cathedral "Our Lady of the Sign" in Manhattan in the presence of Met. Hilarion and Bp. Jerome, and he receives communion as "Br. Nathaniel":
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37755.msg599156.html#msg599156
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« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2012, 11:49:13 PM »

Interesting.  I know nothing of the ROCOR-MP or Met. Hilarion except things I've read here and there...but I cannot imagine ANY bishop allowing anyone affiliated with their Archdiocese to be preaching antisemitism on top of acting like a nut.
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« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2012, 11:51:54 PM »

I cannot imagine ANY bishop allowing anyone affiliated with their Archdiocese to be preaching antisemitism

You'd be surprised...
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« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2012, 01:24:40 AM »

I cannot imagine ANY bishop allowing anyone affiliated with their Archdiocese to be preaching antisemitism

You'd be surprised...

He doesn't preach antisemitism he preaches anti-Zionism. Which is fine by me. I like most of what he says but I can't stand watching him his movements are so goofy.
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« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2012, 01:43:28 AM »

I cannot imagine ANY bishop allowing anyone affiliated with their Archdiocese to be preaching antisemitism

You'd be surprised...

He doesn't preach antisemitism he preaches anti-Zionism. Which is fine by me. I like most of what he says but I can't stand watching him his movements are so goofy.

It most definitely is antisemitism...claiming Jews are part of a NWO and have a secretive, dark mission to control the world is classical antisemitism.  Bigots always intrigued me because nothing they think requires actual intelligence as most often having knowledge would enlighten them.  "Christian" bigots are even more foul as they defile the body of Christ, who was Jewish, and yet are too simple to see the contradiction between Christ's message and their own idiocy. 
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« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2012, 02:58:06 AM »

Interesting.  I know nothing of the ROCOR-MP or Met. Hilarion except things I've read here and there...but I cannot imagine ANY bishop allowing anyone affiliated with their Archdiocese to be preaching antisemitism on top of acting like a nut.

Welcome to Russian Orthodoxy. 
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« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2012, 01:02:52 AM »

He preaches a lot against Zionism. It is difficult to separate Anti Semitism from Anti Zionism. Br Nathanael speaks a lot about Zionism, which can LOOK like anti Semitism. I don't think he's Anti Jew, he is a weird guy, no doubt about that. I could swear that I read he is NOT canonically Orthodox. Can anyone confirm this for me?
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« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2012, 08:55:57 AM »

He preaches a lot against Zionism. It is difficult to separate Anti Semitism from Anti Zionism. Br Nathanael speaks a lot about Zionism, which can LOOK like anti Semitism. I don't think he's Anti Jew, he is a weird guy, no doubt about that. I could swear that I read he is NOT canonically Orthodox. Can anyone confirm this for me?

It's clear from the below videos that "Brother" Nathanael is a white supremacist. Where that leaves him vis-a-vis anti-Semitism/ anti-Zionism I don't know, but I don't really care either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q65ipz4vGo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHK-xfH82OU
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« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2012, 04:54:09 PM »

He preaches a lot against Zionism. It is difficult to separate Anti Semitism from Anti Zionism. Br Nathanael speaks a lot about Zionism, which can LOOK like anti Semitism. I don't think he's Anti Jew, he is a weird guy, no doubt about that. I could swear that I read he is NOT canonically Orthodox. Can anyone confirm this for me?

It's clear from the below videos that "Brother" Nathanael is a white supremacist. Where that leaves him vis-a-vis anti-Semitism/ anti-Zionism I don't know, but I don't really care either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q65ipz4vGo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHK-xfH82OU

And frankly, I don't give a  ---- if he is 'canonical' or not - Such prattle is an embarrassment to us all. Bah.
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2012, 01:29:54 AM »

Back in 2005 or so, he looked me up on an Orthodox website I used to run. I told him to stop emailing me and at first he refused, saying "But all the young people love me!" I then threatened to find his bishop and report him. He reluctantly stopped emailing me then. He's a nutcase. I think he wants to play Holy Fool for Christ, but he has enough hate in his heart that I think he's really playing Holy Fool for the opposing team, as it were.
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2012, 10:33:41 AM »

I think he wants to play Holy Fool for Christ, but he has enough hate in his heart that I think he's really playing Holy Fool for the opposing team, as it were.

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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2012, 01:21:48 PM »

I think he wants to play Holy Fool for Christ, but he has enough hate in his heart that I think he's really playing Holy Fool for the opposing team, as it were.

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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2012, 08:28:02 PM »

.. Br. Nathaniel claims to be with ROCOR-MP under Met. Hilarion,

I am sure you are mistaken and are, inadvertently, not telling the truth.  Nathanial could not claim to be a member of this "ROCOR-MP."  No such entity exists.  How can he claim to be a member of it?!
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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2012, 09:13:52 PM »

I thought something was fishy about that!
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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2012, 09:36:08 PM »

As there are many synods which claim the name "ROCOR" or "ROCA", "ROCOR-MP" is a common acronym used in reference to the ROCOR synod in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate (MP). As there was an assumption that Br. Nathaniel was in the ROCOR synod under Met. Agafangel (ROCOR-A) which is not in communion with "mainline" Orthodoxy, I stated that Br. Nathaniel claimed to be in ROCOR-MP or in other words, the ROCOR synod in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate. I know Irish Hermit doesn't like the term ROCOR-MP but he knows what synod I was referencing and I thought it was rather obvious that I was using the term to show who Br. Nathaniel was in communion with. No offence was intended.
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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2012, 09:52:42 PM »

ROCOR-MP is a denigratory term applied to the Russian Church Abroad (or Outside Russia) by dissidents such as yourself who deny that we are even baptized and go so far as to call us servants of Satan (I am sure you are familiar with this in your Metropolitan's Encyclical.)

It is misleading at best to create an acronym for a Church when you know quite well that the Church does not use it.  Some silly people insist on using RCRO - Roman Catholic Religious Organisation.   It's all quite silly!


As there are many synods which claim the name "ROCOR" or "ROCA", "ROCOR-MP" is a common acronym used in reference to the ROCOR synod in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate (MP). As there was an assumption that Br. Nathaniel was in the ROCOR synod under Met. Agafangel (ROCOR-A) which is not in communion with "mainline" Orthodoxy, I stated that Br. Nathaniel claimed to be in ROCOR-MP or in other words, the ROCOR synod in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate. I know Irish Hermit doesn't like the term ROCOR-MP but he knows what synod I was referencing and I thought it was rather obvious that I was using the term to show who Br. Nathaniel was in communion with. No offence was intended.
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« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2012, 10:07:48 PM »

ROCOR-MP is a denigratory term applied to the Russian Church Abroad (or Outside Russia) by dissidents such as yourself who deny that we are even baptized and go so far as to call us servants of Satan (I am sure you are familiar with this in your Metropolitan's Encyclical.)

It is misleading at best to create an acronym for a Church when you know quite well that the Church does not use it.  Some silly people insist on using RCRO - Roman Catholic Religious Organisation.   It's all quite silly!


As there are many synods which claim the name "ROCOR" or "ROCA", "ROCOR-MP" is a common acronym used in reference to the ROCOR synod in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate (MP). As there was an assumption that Br. Nathaniel was in the ROCOR synod under Met. Agafangel (ROCOR-A) which is not in communion with "mainline" Orthodoxy, I stated that Br. Nathaniel claimed to be in ROCOR-MP or in other words, the ROCOR synod in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate. I know Irish Hermit doesn't like the term ROCOR-MP but he knows what synod I was referencing and I thought it was rather obvious that I was using the term to show who Br. Nathaniel was in communion with. No offence was intended.

I used the term to clarify which ROCOR synod Br. Nathaniel was in communion with as someone thought he was in communion with a different ROCOR synod than the one you're a part of, so I don't see how I was being misleading. Some people use the term "EO" instead of typing out "Eastern Orthodox" or "RC" for "Roman Catholic." As for your other comments on the validity of baptisms or who the "servants of Satan" mentioned in my Metropolia's confession of faith, that is irrelevant to this thread. I didn't mean to mislead anyone as I thought I was clarifying which ROCOR synod he is a part of.

But I do not wish to derail this thread anymore as this is becoming off-topic.
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« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2012, 04:24:46 AM »

It is misleading at best to create an acronym for a Church when you know quite well that the Church does not use it. 

Clarity is always a good thing.  Considering the bizarre world of internet Orthodoxy, ROCOR-MP is a logical name. 
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« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2012, 04:28:06 AM »

ROCOR-MP is a denigratory term applied to the Russian Church Abroad (or Outside Russia) by dissidents such as yourself who deny that we are even baptized and go so far as to call us servants of Satan (I am sure you are familiar with this in your Metropolitan's Encyclical.)

It is misleading at best to create an acronym for a Church when you know quite well that the Church does not use it.  Some silly people insist on using RCRO - Roman Catholic Religious Organisation.   It's all quite silly!


As there are many synods which claim the name "ROCOR" or "ROCA", "ROCOR-MP" is a common acronym used in reference to the ROCOR synod in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate (MP). As there was an assumption that Br. Nathaniel was in the ROCOR synod under Met. Agafangel (ROCOR-A) which is not in communion with "mainline" Orthodoxy, I stated that Br. Nathaniel claimed to be in ROCOR-MP or in other words, the ROCOR synod in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate. I know Irish Hermit doesn't like the term ROCOR-MP but he knows what synod I was referencing and I thought it was rather obvious that I was using the term to show who Br. Nathaniel was in communion with. No offence was intended.

I used the term to clarify which ROCOR synod Br. Nathaniel was in communion with as someone thought he was in communion with a different ROCOR synod than the one you're a part of, so I don't see how I was being misleading. Some people use the term "EO" instead of typing out "Eastern Orthodox" or "RC" for "Roman Catholic." As for your other comments on the validity of baptisms or who the "servants of Satan" mentioned in my Metropolia's confession of faith, that is irrelevant to this thread. I didn't mean to mislead anyone as I thought I was clarifying which ROCOR synod he is a part of.

But I do not wish to derail this thread anymore as this is becoming off-topic.

To bring this back on topic --- Nathanael Kapner may have left the Russian Church or he may still be with us, I do not know.   But he does not now, and never did,  belong to anything called ROCOR-MP.     Neither do I.  Neither does Metropolitan Hilarion.
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« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2012, 04:34:48 AM »

It is misleading at best to create an acronym for a Church when you know quite well that the Church does not use it. 

Clarity is always a good thing.  Considering the bizarre world of internet Orthodoxy, ROCOR-MP is a logical name. 

It is not the name of our Church.  What more needs to be said? 

The fact that around 12 (someone said they have reached 12?) newly created dissident groups now want to steal our name is another matter.  Perhaps we should prefix or suffix them all with Ps for "pseudo"?
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« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2012, 04:41:30 AM »

It is misleading at best to create an acronym for a Church when you know quite well that the Church does not use it. 

Clarity is always a good thing.  Considering the bizarre world of internet Orthodoxy, ROCOR-MP is a logical name. 

It is not the name of our Church.  What more needs to be said? 

The fact that around 12 (someone said they have reached 12?) newly created dissident groups now want to steal our name is another matter.  Perhaps we should prefix or suffix them all with Ps for "pseudo"?

It is an accurate description of your church, or are you embarrassed to be associated with the MP? 
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« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2012, 04:42:50 AM »

It is misleading at best to create an acronym for a Church when you know quite well that the Church does not use it. 

Clarity is always a good thing.  Considering the bizarre world of internet Orthodoxy, ROCOR-MP is a logical name. 

 laugh  I suggest "GOA-Ph" because most people can mistakenly think it is an archdiocese of the Church of Greece.  Of course it is not.  It is an archdiocese subordinate to Constantinople.
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« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2012, 04:50:15 AM »

It is misleading at best to create an acronym for a Church when you know quite well that the Church does not use it. 

Clarity is always a good thing.  Considering the bizarre world of internet Orthodoxy, ROCOR-MP is a logical name. 

It is not the name of our Church.  What more needs to be said? 

The fact that around 12 (someone said they have reached 12?) newly created dissident groups now want to steal our name is another matter.  Perhaps we should prefix or suffix them all with Ps for "pseudo"?

It is an accurate description of your church, or are you embarrassed to be associated with the MP? 

We are the one and only canonical "Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia" (or "Russian Orthodox Church Abroad").

That is our name.  The acronyms are ROCOR and ROCA.

I undersatnd that it is decent behaviour to address people and Churches as they desire.
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« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2012, 04:51:16 AM »

It is misleading at best to create an acronym for a Church when you know quite well that the Church does not use it. 

Clarity is always a good thing.  Considering the bizarre world of internet Orthodoxy, ROCOR-MP is a logical name. 

 laugh  I suggest "GOA-Ph" because most people can mistakenly think it is an archdiocese of the Church of Greece.  Of course it is not.  It is an archdiocese subordinate to Constantinople.

It depends on the context.  If there is a discussion where the two are likely to be confused, simply saying GOA may not be the best choice.  In this case we are dealing with a jurisdiction hopping nutter (and these types love the various übertrue whatever jurisdictions) hence clarify that ROCOR here in fact means the mainstream ROCOR that is part of the MP is logical.  Depending on with whom I'm conversing I alternate being being Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox or UOC-MP depending on the level of clarity desired.
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« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2012, 04:56:43 AM »

It is misleading at best to create an acronym for a Church when you know quite well that the Church does not use it. 

Clarity is always a good thing.  Considering the bizarre world of internet Orthodoxy, ROCOR-MP is a logical name. 

 laugh  I suggest "GOA-Ph" because most people can mistakenly think it is an archdiocese of the Church of Greece.  Of course it is not.  It is an archdiocese subordinate to Constantinople.

It depends on the context.  If there is a discussion where the two are likely to be confused, simply saying GOA may not be the best choice.  In this case we are dealing with a jurisdiction hopping nutter (and these types love the various übertrue whatever jurisdictions) hence clarify that ROCOR here in fact means the mainstream ROCOR that is part of the MP is logical.  Depending on with whom I'm conversing I alternate being being Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox or UOC-MP depending on the level of clarity desired.

The acronym was created by dissidents.  It says that we are part of the smorgasbord of about 12 uncanonical groups which are using it.
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« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2012, 05:04:38 AM »

It is misleading at best to create an acronym for a Church when you know quite well that the Church does not use it. 

Clarity is always a good thing.  Considering the bizarre world of internet Orthodoxy, ROCOR-MP is a logical name. 

 laugh  I suggest "GOA-Ph" because most people can mistakenly think it is an archdiocese of the Church of Greece.  Of course it is not.  It is an archdiocese subordinate to Constantinople.

It depends on the context.  If there is a discussion where the two are likely to be confused, simply saying GOA may not be the best choice.  In this case we are dealing with a jurisdiction hopping nutter (and these types love the various übertrue whatever jurisdictions) hence clarify that ROCOR here in fact means the mainstream ROCOR that is part of the MP is logical.  Depending on with whom I'm conversing I alternate being being Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox or UOC-MP depending on the level of clarity desired.

The acronym was created by dissidents.  It says that we are part of the smorgasbord of about 12 uncanonical groups which are using it.

No, it says you are a part of the MP.  It rather swiftly distinguishes you from the others.  I'm trying to imagine a conversation:

Unwashed sinner:  Nice robes and bling, what church do you belong to?
The Holy Starets: ROCA
Unwashed sinner: Isn't that a brand of clothing?
The Holy Starets: ROCOR
Unwashed sinner: What is that?
The Holy Starets: That's the official name of the church
Unwashed sinner: hmmm, so you mean like the MP? 
The Holy Starets: NO!!!!! ROCOR. 
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« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2012, 05:08:54 AM »

We have an official name, well, two actually.

We have our official acronyms.

Please, nobody try and foist others on us, and especially ones which we do not accept.  That's an attempt at bullying.

It is misleading at best to create an acronym for a Church when you know quite well that the Church does not use it.  

Clarity is always a good thing.  Considering the bizarre world of internet Orthodoxy, ROCOR-MP is a logical name.  

 laugh  I suggest "GOA-Ph" because most people can mistakenly think it is an archdiocese of the Church of Greece.  Of course it is not.  It is an archdiocese subordinate to Constantinople.

It depends on the context.  If there is a discussion where the two are likely to be confused, simply saying GOA may not be the best choice.  In this case we are dealing with a jurisdiction hopping nutter (and these types love the various übertrue whatever jurisdictions) hence clarify that ROCOR here in fact means the mainstream ROCOR that is part of the MP is logical.  Depending on with whom I'm conversing I alternate being being Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox or UOC-MP depending on the level of clarity desired.

The acronym was created by dissidents.  It says that we are part of the smorgasbord of about 12 uncanonical groups which are using it.

No, it says you are a part of the MP.  It rather swiftly distinguishes you from the others.  I'm trying to imagine a conversation:

Unwashed sinner:  Nice robes and bling, what church do you belong to?
The Holy Starets: ROCA
Unwashed sinner: Isn't that a brand of clothing?
The Holy Starets: ROCOR
Unwashed sinner: What is that?
The Holy Starets: That's the official name of the church
Unwashed sinner: hmmm, so you mean like the MP?  
The Holy Starets: NO!!!!! ROCOR.  
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« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2012, 05:11:35 AM »

We have an official name, well, two actually.

We have our official acronyms.

Please, nobody try and foist others on us, and especially ones which we do not accept.  That's an attempt at bullying.

It is about clarification.  I've identified myself as Russian Orthodox (despite that being nowhere in the official name of my church) for the sake of clarification. 
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« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2012, 01:03:39 PM »

Ha! TEC (formerly ECUSA, formerly PECUSA) still holds the title for most contrived church acronym.
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« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2012, 06:13:39 PM »

Ha! TEC (formerly ECUSA, formerly PECUSA) still holds the title for most contrived church acronym.

How about Episcopal Church of America? That would be kind of nice.
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« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2012, 08:04:49 AM »

Ha anyone been following Bro. Nathanael or even supporting him financially ?
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« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2012, 06:11:46 PM »

Ha anyone been following Bro. Nathanael or even supporting him financially ?

I watched one of his videos the other day (on monasticism) because I find his strange way of speaking strangely soothing. And that's about it.
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« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2012, 06:26:50 PM »

He's a nut.
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« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2012, 09:39:11 PM »

Love what he says, love his videos.
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« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2012, 08:43:21 AM »

I do also enjoy his videos - he does also talk about alot of FACTS.
"Satanic Verses in the Talmud"
http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=156

I found that article very interesting.
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« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2012, 11:16:42 AM »

This person also promotes the loathsome "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" as being a real document of Jewish conspiracy which is it not but is rather a rank fabrication.  Angry

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« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2012, 01:10:57 PM »

I can't imagine there being a healthy outcome to paying any attention to him.
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« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2012, 02:58:49 PM »

His message is contrary to the Gospel of Christ.  IMO, his message is evil.
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« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2012, 03:01:03 PM »

His message is contrary to the Gospel of Christ.  IMO, his message is evil.

Agreed.
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« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2012, 03:03:16 PM »

Love what he says, love his videos.

Same here.  My priest the the one who turned me on to him.
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« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2012, 03:42:34 PM »

Love what he says, love his videos.

May one ask what particular things you like please? 
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« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2012, 04:02:27 PM »

The "quotes" that are supposed to be from the Talmud 1) have no citation of any particular translation and 2) I have found at least one on-line Talmud and the purported quotes aren't from the text itself.  There are references in the notes, but also statements that some references to Jesus are anachronistic in that they have Him contemporary with an earlier figure and that there were other people with that name that could have been confused with each other. 

I do not trust Brother Nathanael's quotes or understanding of complex texts. 

I had some interactions with him some years ago on the E-Cafe when he was in conflict with Gregory of Colorado and removed/left the monastery. I have also read some of his later (and imho poisonously slanderous) articles against various EO bishops.  I agree with KBN1 and other posters here.
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« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2012, 11:28:05 PM »

I wish he would do some apologetics against Judaism instead or constantly judging the jews. I didn't like the fact when he had a board "Jews are the anti-christ" walking down new york and a jew throw his coffee on his face.
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« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2012, 05:35:35 PM »

Love what he says, love his videos.

May one ask what particular things you like please? 

Yes, you have a Christian monk telling the evils of Zionist Jews.   Calling out the elite bankers & world leaders.   Supporting the Christian leaders.
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« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2012, 06:06:39 PM »

Love what he says, love his videos.
Same here. I'm nearly dying of laughter whenever I watch those videos.
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« Reply #57 on: September 04, 2012, 11:12:44 PM »

For what it's worth, I by chance met Br. Nathanael this past summer while visiting St. Anthony's Monestary in Arizona. He was received by and communed with the monks. He said he was there to discuss with Elder Ephraim the ongoing talks of establishing a monastery (under the GOAA) near his current residence. I left the day after he arrived, so I have no clue if the elder/diocese came to a decision.
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« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2012, 07:49:38 AM »

Love what he says, love his videos.

May one ask what particular things you like please? 

Yes, you have a Christian monk telling the evils of Zionist Jews.   Calling out the elite bankers & world leaders.   Supporting the Christian leaders.

And you have no problem with his white supremacism?
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« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2012, 08:49:57 AM »


Yes, you have a Christian monk telling the evils of Zionist Jews.   Calling out the elite bankers & world leaders.   Supporting the Christian leaders.

And you have no problem with his white supremacism?

I guess that I already knew that for most liberals, if you do not have your lips firmly stuck on a Jewish rear you are antisemetic, but I did not know that also made you a white supremist.
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« Reply #60 on: September 05, 2012, 10:30:49 AM »


Yes, you have a Christian monk telling the evils of Zionist Jews.   Calling out the elite bankers & world leaders.   Supporting the Christian leaders.

And you have no problem with his white supremacism?

I guess that I already knew that for most liberals, if you do not have your lips firmly stuck on a Jewish rear you are antisemetic, but I did not know that also made you a white supremist.
It's strange. When I hear criticism of zionism, it most often comes from liberals. Most of the blind support of Israel and zionism I hear, comes from conservative christians.
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« Reply #61 on: September 05, 2012, 10:47:13 AM »

It's strange. When I hear criticism of zionism, it most often comes from liberals. Most of the blind support of Israel and zionism I hear, comes from conservative christians.

I do not consider "evangelicals" or Republicans to be at all "conservative".  They are both bought and paid for, as well as in bed with, the same people as the Democrats, ACLU, and the other organizations that serve the Antichrist.

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« Reply #62 on: September 05, 2012, 11:55:22 AM »

It's strange. When I hear criticism of zionism, it most often comes from liberals. Most of the blind support of Israel and zionism I hear, comes from conservative christians.

I do not consider "evangelicals" or Republicans to be at all "conservative".  They are both bought and paid for, as well as in bed with, the same people as the Democrats, ACLU, and the other organizations that serve the Antichrist.
I did not necessarily mean evangelicals or repuplicans, I said conservative.

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« Reply #63 on: September 05, 2012, 12:30:47 PM »


Yes, you have a Christian monk telling the evils of Zionist Jews.   Calling out the elite bankers & world leaders.   Supporting the Christian leaders.

And you have no problem with his white supremacism?

I guess that I already knew that for most liberals, if you do not have your lips firmly stuck on a Jewish rear you are antisemetic, but I did not know that also made you a white supremist.

Have you seen this video, Punch? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8phYsxf4xMM

Among other things, he says the following:

"White identity is indeed a necessary component in resisting the nightmare of multiracialism that the Jewish agenda brought to America and throughout Europe. International Jewry's objective intent and aim: to destroy the one force that could oppose them- namely, a white Christian political power bloc."

Nathanael criticizes white nationalist movements, but not because of their white nationalism, but because they do not promote ("white") Christianity enough.

Someone who persistently rails against "multiracialism" and promotes "White Christian" values and white nationalism, or who talks about "a war on white America" is clearly a white supremacist. Apparently my parents' interracial marriage was part of the Zionist agenda to undermine "White Christianity."
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« Reply #64 on: September 05, 2012, 12:41:59 PM »

Yes, you have a Christian monk telling the evils of Zionist Jews.   Calling out the elite bankers & world leaders.   Supporting the Christian leaders.

Firstly: He's not a monk. Secondly: Supporting Protestantism isn't much different from supporting Judaism from the Orthodox POV.
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« Reply #65 on: September 05, 2012, 12:47:24 PM »

Iconodule : Calling him a "supremacist" is a bit inaccurate. Nearly everything Br. Nathanael says on racial matters comes from the writings of the philosopher Oswald Spengler. I think we can disagree with him on these issues without resorting to exaggeration.
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« Reply #66 on: September 05, 2012, 09:04:11 PM »

Iconodule : Calling him a "supremacist" is a bit inaccurate. Nearly everything Br. Nathanael says on racial matters comes from the writings of the philosopher Oswald Spengler. I think we can disagree with him on these issues without resorting to exaggeration.

Mr Spengler certainly did not believe in the equality of the races. However, in the case of Nathanael Kapner, he is more than an anti-Zionist; I think he really hates Jews as a race, unless they convert to Christianity--just like himself.
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« Reply #67 on: September 06, 2012, 12:49:43 AM »

Iconodule : Calling him a "supremacist" is a bit inaccurate. Nearly everything Br. Nathanael says on racial matters comes from the writings of the philosopher Oswald Spengler. I think we can disagree with him on these issues without resorting to exaggeration.

Mr Spengler certainly did not believe in the equality of the races. However, in the case of Nathanael Kapner, he is more than an anti-Zionist; I think he really hates Jews as a race, unless they convert to Christianity--just like himself.
I am not familiar with any supremacist views held by Spengler, but you are more than welcome to correct me. Spengler was a racialist, that is, he believed the races were inherently different and predisposed towards certain behaviors. Furthermore he suggested that each race be allotted its own homeland. While he may have been proud of his own, I do not know of any instance in which he advocated the supremacy of the white race (incidentally, one of the reasons he refused to join the National Socialist movement in Germany or its affiliated party).
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« Reply #68 on: September 06, 2012, 08:00:21 AM »

White separatism and white supremacy= distinction without a difference. In the real world, homogeneous communities will always butt up against each other and the choice will be to integrate or compete. The idea that each "race" could remain in its own homogeneous homeland in perpetuity is naive or disingenuous, particularly considering that the modern conceptions of race were not even believed 500 years ago. In the context of the United States, where "whiteness" has always carried a degree of privilege, white separatism and white supremacy are invariably conjoined.

The fact that "Brother" Nathanael talks about the need for a "white Christian political power bloc" and speaks as if the "white race" is integral to Christianity, as if none of the numerous Christians of color counted, shows that he is a wolf in sheep's clothing and not a Christian at all.
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« Reply #69 on: September 06, 2012, 08:02:53 AM »

BTW I'm really wondering if Yeshuaisiam, Punch, and the other Nathanael enthusiasts here remain so after learning about his white nationalism which they were clearly unaware of before.
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« Reply #70 on: September 06, 2012, 07:05:38 PM »

White separatism and white supremacy= distinction without a difference. In the real world, homogeneous communities will always butt up against each other and the choice will be to integrate or compete. The idea that each "race" could remain in its own homogeneous homeland in perpetuity is naive or disingenuous, particularly considering that the modern conceptions of race were not even believed 500 years ago. In the context of the United States, where "whiteness" has always carried a degree of privilege, white separatism and white supremacy are invariably conjoined.

The fact that "Brother" Nathanael talks about the need for a "white Christian political power bloc" and speaks as if the "white race" is integral to Christianity, as if none of the numerous Christians of color counted, shows that he is a wolf in sheep's clothing and not a Christian at all.

I agree. Even if the idea is not supremacy, separatism brings forth the "us vs them" phenomenon. Supremacy is then a natural and logical result.
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« Reply #71 on: September 06, 2012, 07:22:05 PM »

He's a white supremacist and I have a very low opinion of ROCA- Agafangel for allowing him to publicly rave without any repercussions.

A white supremest Jew? lol

Boy, you crazy.
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« Reply #72 on: September 06, 2012, 07:25:59 PM »

We have a lot of judgmental folke here.

Why do people claim he isn't a monk? Also, he doesn't promote anything that isn't Orthodox, he just says Judaism is the teachings of the Pharisees (which it is), and it is an evil religion (that's left to interpretation).

I think we jut have a lot of converts carrying their Protestant (Zionist) baggage with them.

I agree, he needs to talk about more things, the Jew thing is getting kind of old, but he is not "racist" against Jews. You guys take it a little too far. Your hate for him brings you together and that's a little messed up guys.

If people focused on their own salvation as much as judging others, the world would be awesome.
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« Reply #73 on: September 06, 2012, 07:36:28 PM »

White separatism and white supremacy= distinction without a difference. In the real world, homogeneous communities will always butt up against each other and the choice will be to integrate or compete. The idea that each "race" could remain in its own homogeneous homeland in perpetuity is naive or disingenuous, particularly considering that the modern conceptions of race were not even believed 500 years ago. In the context of the United States, where "whiteness" has always carried a degree of privilege, white separatism and white supremacy are invariably conjoined.

The fact that "Brother" Nathanael talks about the need for a "white Christian political power bloc" and speaks as if the "white race" is integral to Christianity, as if none of the numerous Christians of color counted, shows that he is a wolf in sheep's clothing and not a Christian at all.

Yes, and the mixing of the races has had such a positive benefit here in the US.  Sorry, don't buy it.
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« Reply #74 on: September 06, 2012, 07:37:43 PM »

BTW I'm really wondering if Yeshuaisiam, Punch, and the other Nathanael enthusiasts here remain so after learning about his white nationalism which they were clearly unaware of before.

Yes.  And I was more aware of his views than you have assumed.  You also assume that I would disagree with them.  I do not.
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« Reply #75 on: September 06, 2012, 08:29:43 PM »

White separatism and white supremacy= distinction without a difference. In the real world, homogeneous communities will always butt up against each other and the choice will be to integrate or compete. The idea that each "race" could remain in its own homogeneous homeland in perpetuity is naive or disingenuous, particularly considering that the modern conceptions of race were not even believed 500 years ago. In the context of the United States, where "whiteness" has always carried a degree of privilege, white separatism and white supremacy are invariably conjoined.

The fact that "Brother" Nathanael talks about the need for a "white Christian political power bloc" and speaks as if the "white race" is integral to Christianity, as if none of the numerous Christians of color counted, shows that he is a wolf in sheep's clothing and not a Christian at all.

Yes, and the mixing of the races has had such a positive benefit here in the US.  Sorry, don't buy it.

The Church is a mixing of races. Too bad for you.
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« Reply #76 on: September 06, 2012, 08:34:37 PM »

We have a lot of judgmental folke here.

Why do people claim he isn't a monk? Also, he doesn't promote anything that isn't Orthodox, he just says Judaism is the teachings of the Pharisees (which it is), and it is an evil religion (that's left to interpretation).

I think we jut have a lot of converts carrying their Protestant (Zionist) baggage with them.

I agree, he needs to talk about more things, the Jew thing is getting kind of old, but he is not "racist" against Jews. You guys take it a little too far. Your hate for him brings you together and that's a little messed up guys.

If people focused on their own salvation as much as judging others, the world would be awesome.

And yet another Nathanael fanboy who doesn't know what Nathanael actually believes...

Scroll up to reply # 63, watch Nathanael's "Christian Roots of White Nations" video, and educate yourself.

For the record, I have never been a Zionist nor a Protestant. I believe the state of Israel is immoral and should be abolished.

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« Reply #77 on: September 06, 2012, 09:58:01 PM »

We have a lot of judgmental folke here.

Yes, it is a passion all of us struggle with.

Quote
Why do people claim he isn't a monk?

IMO, he isn't a monk.  He is a novice. 

Quote
Also, he doesn't promote anything that isn't Orthodox, he just says Judaism is the teachings of the Pharisees (which it is), and it is an evil religion (that's left to interpretation).

Some say he is a White supremacist.  I can't say that as I don't know enough about his teachings.  I do know he teaches racialism. This is not Orthodox teaching.

Quote
I think we jut have a lot of converts carrying their Protestant (Zionist) baggage with them.

No, I was raised in a Protestant household.  Zionism nor the Jews were EVER discussed growing up.  Not all Protestants are Zionist.  As an adult, I know for a fact my dad is not a Zionist.  What it seems like to me (I can't say for certain) is that we have a  few reactionary converts here who believe it is Orthodox to believe the opposite of what "the heretical Protestant West" believes.  Protestants are Zionists?  We are anti-Zionists and it is our duty to disparage Judaism and Jews at every turn. In love of course...

Quote

I agree, he needs to talk about more things, the Jew thing is getting kind of old, but he is not "racist" against Jews. You guys take it a little too far. Your hate for him brings you together and that's a little messed up guys.

I don't have any hatred whatsoever towards the man.  Yet, I agree with a great deal of what others are saying. 

Quote
If people focused on their own salvation as much as judging others, the world would be awesome.

Indeed.  I encourage you to take your own advice.  Stop accusing people of hating another when you do not know their hearts. 
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« Reply #78 on: September 06, 2012, 10:01:16 PM »

We have a lot of judgmental folke here.

Why do people claim he isn't a monk? Also, he doesn't promote anything that isn't Orthodox, he just says Judaism is the teachings of the Pharisees (which it is), and it is an evil religion (that's left to interpretation).

I think we jut have a lot of converts carrying their Protestant (Zionist) baggage with them.

I agree, he needs to talk about more things, the Jew thing is getting kind of old, but he is not "racist" against Jews. You guys take it a little too far. Your hate for him brings you together and that's a little messed up guys.

If people focused on their own salvation as much as judging others, the world would be awesome.

And yet another Nathanael fanboy who doesn't know what Nathanael actually believes...

Scroll up to reply # 63, watch Nathanael's "Christian Roots of White Nations" video, and educate yourself.

For the record, I have never been a Zionist nor a Protestant. I believe the state of Israel is immoral and should be abolished.

I'm not a "fan-boy". I'm just not going to judge him.
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« Reply #79 on: September 06, 2012, 10:05:00 PM »

We have a lot of judgmental folke here.

Yes, it is a passion all of us struggle with.

Quote
Why do people claim he isn't a monk?

IMO, he isn't a monk.  He is a novice. 

Quote
Also, he doesn't promote anything that isn't Orthodox, he just says Judaism is the teachings of the Pharisees (which it is), and it is an evil religion (that's left to interpretation).

Some say he is a White supremacist.  I can't say that as I don't know enough about his teachings.  I do know he teaches racialism. This is not Orthodox teaching.

Quote
I think we jut have a lot of converts carrying their Protestant (Zionist) baggage with them.

No, I was raised in a Protestant household.  Zionism nor the Jews were EVER discussed growing up.  Not all Protestants are Zionist.  As an adult, I know for a fact my dad is not a Zionist.  What it seems like to me (I can't say for certain) is that we have a  few reactionary converts here who believe it is Orthodox to believe the opposite of what "the heretical Protestant West" believes.  Protestants are Zionists?  We are anti-Zionists and it is our duty to disparage Judaism and Jews at every turn. In love of course...

Quote

I agree, he needs to talk about more things, the Jew thing is getting kind of old, but he is not "racist" against Jews. You guys take it a little too far. Your hate for him brings you together and that's a little messed up guys.

I don't have any hatred whatsoever towards the man.  Yet, I agree with a great deal of what others are saying. 

Quote
If people focused on their own salvation as much as judging others, the world would be awesome.

Indeed.  I encourage you to take your own advice.  Stop accusing people of hating another when you do not know their hearts. 

1) By definition he is a monk: A monk (from Greek: μοναχός, monachos, "single, solitary') is a person who practices religious asceticism, living either alone or with any number of other monks. A monk may be a person who decided to dedicate his life to serve the other living beings or to be an ascetic who voluntarily chooses to leave mainstream society and live his life in prayer and contemplation.

2) Please explain how he teaches racism.

3) I apologize, I might be judging you all as judging him. I'm just scandalized there is a thread dedicated to it.

As a bonus, many people here are Zionists (atleast of what I've read), so it was directed to the many...not the few.
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« Reply #80 on: September 06, 2012, 10:12:05 PM »

1) If we follow your definition I'm a monk. 
2) I did not say he was a racist.  I said he is a racialist.
3) I generally agree.  I hate threads dedicated to specific people with the purpose of discrediting them.  However, in this case, I believe it is necessary.  He acts as a representative of our Holy Orthodoxy and IMO he is doing us a great disservice.  In this case, I strongly support distancing ourselves from Br. Nathanael's invective.
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« Reply #81 on: September 06, 2012, 10:12:23 PM »

Quote
1) By definition he is a monk: A monk (from Greek: μοναχός, monachos, "single, solitary') is a person who practices religious asceticism, living either alone or with any number of other monks. A monk may be a person who decided to dedicate his life to serve the other living beings or to be an ascetic who voluntarily chooses to leave mainstream society and live his life in prayer and contemplation.

Correction: Br Nathaniel has not received monastic tonsure. Monastics, both novices and tonsured, are also under the obedience of their abbot and their bishop. Yet to see evidence of this person conforming to either requirement.
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« Reply #82 on: September 06, 2012, 10:39:51 PM »

1) If we follow your definition I'm a monk. 
2) I did not say he was a racist.  I said he is a racialist.
3) I generally agree.  I hate threads dedicated to specific people with the purpose of discrediting them.  However, in this case, I believe it is necessary.  He acts as a representative of our Holy Orthodoxy and IMO he is doing us a great disservice.  In this case, I strongly support distancing ourselves from Br. Nathanael's invective.

1) If you consider yourself as such, why can't you be?
2) How is he such? He hasn't promoted it?
3) Isn't that separating people in the same way "racialism" is? You are going to try and distance Orthodoxy from this man, to make it look more favourable. Why are you so concerned with that? Focus on yourself, not trying to "disprove" Nathanael.
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« Reply #83 on: September 06, 2012, 10:43:09 PM »

Quote
1) By definition he is a monk: A monk (from Greek: μοναχός, monachos, "single, solitary') is a person who practices religious asceticism, living either alone or with any number of other monks. A monk may be a person who decided to dedicate his life to serve the other living beings or to be an ascetic who voluntarily chooses to leave mainstream society and live his life in prayer and contemplation.

Correction: Br Nathaniel has not received monastic tonsure. Monastics, both novices and tonsured, are also under the obedience of their abbot and their bishop. Yet to see evidence of this person conforming to either requirement.

Look up the definition http://orthodoxwiki.org/Monasticism

You don't have to be tonsured. Do you think many of the desert ascetics (who were hermits) were tonsured? I guess you don't consider them monks either? Or is Br. Nathanael an exception because you do not like him?
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« Reply #84 on: September 06, 2012, 10:49:29 PM »

Focus on yourself, not trying to "disprove" Nathanael.

This is good advice.  Thank you.
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« Reply #85 on: September 06, 2012, 10:50:54 PM »


2) How is he such? He hasn't promoted it?

So promoting a "White Christian political power bloc" and denouncing interracial marriage is not racialism in your book?
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« Reply #86 on: September 06, 2012, 11:56:58 PM »


2) How is he such? He hasn't promoted it?

So promoting a "White Christian political power bloc" and denouncing interracial marriage is not racialism in your book?

Is that what he said? If you can send me a clip of him saying that, I would appreciate it. I've personally never heard such (not calling you a liar, it just doesn't seem like the man I met).
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« Reply #87 on: September 07, 2012, 12:01:13 AM »


2) How is he such? He hasn't promoted it?

So promoting a "White Christian political power bloc" and denouncing interracial marriage is not racialism in your book?

Is that what he said? If you can send me a clip of him saying that, I would appreciate it. I've personally never heard such (not calling you a liar, it just doesn't seem like the man I met).

I already pointed out the video to you, but here it is again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8phYsxf4xMM
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« Reply #88 on: September 07, 2012, 12:02:35 AM »

To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.

If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.

As for his teachings, he's a crackpot with crackpot theories. His New World Order, grand Zionist plan, Freemasonry bull is just plain stupid. He's not a holy fool despite any attempts to appear as such.
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« Reply #89 on: September 07, 2012, 12:07:54 AM »


2) How is he such? He hasn't promoted it?

So promoting a "White Christian political power bloc" and denouncing interracial marriage is not racialism in your book?

Is that what he said? If you can send me a clip of him saying that, I would appreciate it. I've personally never heard such (not calling you a liar, it just doesn't seem like the man I met).

I already pointed out the video to you, but here it is again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8phYsxf4xMM

Interesting. I told him I (a Norwegian) was marrying a Puerto Rican woman, and he wished me well.

But I don't disagree with you, from what he said did make him sound like a White Supremest.
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« Reply #90 on: September 07, 2012, 12:14:20 AM »

To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.

Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.

Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)
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« Reply #91 on: September 07, 2012, 12:27:25 AM »

To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.

Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.

Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)


That makes absolutely no sense, it says he is from Colorado, and so his Bishop should be either Bishop Alypy of Chicago or Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco. There is definitely something fishy there.
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« Reply #92 on: September 07, 2012, 12:33:38 AM »

To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.

Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.

Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)

If you mean locol bishop, it is Archbishop Kyrill.


That makes absolutely no sense, it says he is from Colorado, and so his Bishop should be either Bishop Alypy of Chicago or Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco. There is definitely something fishy there.

Hilarion is First Hierarch of ROCOR.

His local bishop is Archbishop Kyrill.

How is that fishy...?
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« Reply #93 on: September 07, 2012, 12:50:19 AM »

To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.

Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.

Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)

If you mean locol bishop, it is Archbishop Kyrill.


That makes absolutely no sense, it says he is from Colorado, and so his Bishop should be either Bishop Alypy of Chicago or Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco. There is definitely something fishy there.

Hilarion is First Hierarch of ROCOR.

His local bishop is Archbishop Kyrill.

How is that fishy...?

I had asked for his Bishop. If someone were to give my Bishop I'd give my local Bishop, not the primate. If Bishop Kyrill is his local Bishop then okay. I just wonder why the heck Bishop Kyrill hasn't done anything about him yet. Then again, for all the good things about it, there are also crazy things about ROCOR.
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« Reply #94 on: September 07, 2012, 12:59:42 AM »

He's a white supremacist and I have a very low opinion of ROCA- Agafangel for allowing him to publicly rave without any repercussions.

A white supremest Jew? lol

Boy, you crazy.
I am not going to say anything about Brother Nathanael since I don't know enough about him but there have been examples of this before.
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« Reply #95 on: September 07, 2012, 01:04:13 AM »

To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.

Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.

Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)

If you mean locol bishop, it is Archbishop Kyrill.


That makes absolutely no sense, it says he is from Colorado, and so his Bishop should be either Bishop Alypy of Chicago or Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco. There is definitely something fishy there.

Hilarion is First Hierarch of ROCOR.

His local bishop is Archbishop Kyrill.

How is that fishy...?

I had asked for his Bishop. If someone were to give my Bishop I'd give my local Bishop, not the primate. If Bishop Kyrill is his local Bishop then okay. I just wonder why the heck Bishop Kyrill hasn't done anything about him yet. Then again, for all the good things about it, there are also crazy things about ROCOR.

I misunderstood you.
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« Reply #96 on: September 07, 2012, 01:19:51 AM »

Flying back to Austin this past Lent from Chicago, where I had attended the ROCOR Chicago diocese's Lenten Pastoral Retreat, the lady I sat next to on the flight said I reminded her of a monk. She asked if I knew Br. Nathanael (she knew him, or of him, by passing him mornings in some Colorado city, as he would preach and pass out things and sing and dance). I said I did not. Knowing of his odd side, I asked the lady, who was not Orthodox, maybe not even Christian, what she thought of Br. Nathanael. I truly wanted to see what her impressions were, since she had seen him so frequently. She said she and others loved Br. Nathanael. He was cheerful and kind to everyone, he did nice things for the children, always had a kind smile and an encouraging word for every person. He made each person feel special. Nor did he ever allow brutal weather or some temporary indisposition to keep him from his "appointed rounds." As she spoke of him, her face lit up with a happy glow.

It is unfortunate to see people tell untruths about Br. Nathanael and slander him, on this forum. Let's please stick to things he actually has said, and please let's not dismiss logic and reason in doing so, even if some things he says or writes seem highly charged or produce sharp reactions.

I personally can't comprehend what in the world he is doing, but I suspend my judgment. I can confirm that he receives Holy Communion in the Russian Church Abroad.
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« Reply #97 on: September 07, 2012, 01:45:42 AM »

I couldn't agree more with what the lady Fr. Aidan described had said. I don't know if anyone else here has actually met Br. Nathanael, but I got a very similar impression. There is much more to him than just political and racial issues. Actually, he probably won't even bring it up in conversation unless you mention it or ask him about it. Yes, he is very passionate about those things (many of which are disagreeable), but behind it all, he is a very kind and warm man. In fact, the issues most of you know him for only came up once in discussion. The rest of the time, he seemed more interested in prayer, fasting, and assisting the other monks in their daily tasks.


Also, it is worth bring up that Br. Nathanael seemingly had no problem being at St. Anthony's, which is itself an interracial monastery. I don't buy this "Brother Nathanael is racist" nonsense.
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« Reply #98 on: September 07, 2012, 02:03:57 AM »

Being nice doesn't change the fact he is a babbling, conspiracy theorist idiot. I want to strangle anyone I meet who suggests 9/11 was by our own government or by the "Jews".

He cites the idiots in the "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth" group as supposed support. That group has only 1,600 professionals as members.

Guess how many total architects and engineers are in our nation? 110,000 licensed architects and 1.5 million engineers.

The few idiots in that group make up barely 1/10th of a percent. (.1%) Hardly a reliable number.

If you learn basic physics, even in architecture school, you learn how stupid these controlled demolition claims are.

Brother Nathanael needs to lay off the crazy juice and quit trying to be a fool for Christ and join a monastery and become a real monk.
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« Reply #99 on: September 07, 2012, 02:06:43 AM »

Being nice doesn't change the fact he is a babbling, conspiracy theorist idiot. I want to strangle anyone I meet who suggests 9/11 was by our own government or by the "Jews".

He cites the idiots in the "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth" group as supposed support. That group has only 1,600 professionals as members.

Guess how many total architects and engineers are in our nation? 110,000 licensed architects and 1.5 million engineers.

The few idiots in that group make up barely 1/10th of a percent. (.1%) Hardly a reliable number.

If you learn basic physics, even in architecture school, you learn how stupid these controlled demolition claims are.

Brother Nathanael needs to lay off the crazy juice and quit trying to be a fool for Christ and join a monastery and become a real monk.

Someone needs to learn to love and not hate. And maybe needs a hug.

P.S. I laugh at the fact you think the US Government loves you, they have a nasty track record.  Wink

And what is a real monk to you? Considering you seem to know all.
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« Reply #100 on: September 07, 2012, 02:11:49 AM »

Devin, have you ever read anything from the "conspiracy idiots" or examined the reasons as to why they believe the things to do. While I hope that this doesn't distract too much from the conversation at hand, Operation Northwoods as a declassified document should at least make us question the morality of our own government.
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« Reply #101 on: September 07, 2012, 03:40:46 AM »

Why do people claim he isn't a monk?

He wasn't tonsured.

Yes, and the mixing of the races has had such a positive benefit here in the US. 

Genetically speaking, it is positive.

1) By definition he is a monk: A monk (from Greek: μοναχός, monachos, "single, solitary') is a person who practices religious asceticism, living either alone or with any number of other monks. A monk may be a person who decided to dedicate his life to serve the other living beings or to be an ascetic who voluntarily chooses to leave mainstream society and live his life in prayer and contemplation.

Do we have to follow some protestant definitions here?


I think we jut have a lot of converts carrying their Protestant (Zionist) baggage with them.

Physycian...
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« Reply #102 on: September 07, 2012, 03:51:45 AM »

He wasn't tonsured.

Many monks and ascetics of the early church weren't either... Being tonsured is not required (don't even attempt to argue otherwise without a Canon or an equivalent).

Do we have to follow some protestant definitions here?

How is my definition Protestant (considering they don't have monastics)? It is the true definition, just because you don't like it doesn't make it untrue.

Physycian...

I don't even understand that. Is that Polish, or bad typing? If you said Physician, I still don't get your point.
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« Reply #103 on: September 07, 2012, 03:53:10 AM »

I think he menu to say "Physcian heal thyself"
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« Reply #104 on: September 07, 2012, 03:55:08 AM »

I think he menu to say "Physcian heal thyself"

I'm telling people to stop accusing Br. Nathanael and he tells ME that? Typical Kalina, starting stuff with me.

Either way, I was never a Protestant, I can't have the "baggage".
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« Reply #105 on: September 07, 2012, 04:53:20 AM »

I do not care what your RPG hadbooks say. In the Orthodox tradition the monk is the person who received the tonsure from an abbot (or a bishop). That means Nathanael Kapner's claims to be a monk groundless. Furthermore, he wears ryasa and pectoral cross unlawfully.

And it looks like that these are converts who are more fascinated with him so your generalization was a miss.
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« Reply #106 on: September 07, 2012, 05:04:30 AM »

I do not care what your RPG hadbooks say. In the Orthodox tradition the monk is the person who received the tonsure from an abbot (or a bishop). That means Nathanael Kapner's claims to be a monk groundless. Furthermore, he wears ryasa and pectoral cross unlawfully.

And it looks like that these are converts who are more fascinated with him so your generalization was a miss.

Excuse me, RPG? Do I look like a nerd? You must have me confused for a scrawny Belorussian-Pole.

St. Anthony the Great wasn't tonsured, neither St Simeon Stylites, as well as countless other monks. Or would your arrogance say they were not "true" monastics because your legalistic mind says they weren't "tonsured"?

The Russians love St. Seraphim, as a matter of fact.

Fact of the matter, your "you must be tonsured to be a monastic" argument is silly. Many monastics, including saints, weren't. So, Michał Kalina, come up with a better argument, or stop with that thing you do that truly annoys me.
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« Reply #107 on: September 07, 2012, 05:16:54 AM »

St. Anthony the Great wasn't tonsured, neither St Simeon Stylites, as well as countless other monks. Or would your arrogance say they were not "true" monastics because your legalistic mind says they weren't "tonsured"?

They were not members of ROCOR.

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engdocuments/enov_polmon.html - that's all that matters in that case.

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The Russians love St. Seraphim, as a matter of fact.

St. Seraphim was tonsured.
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« Reply #108 on: September 07, 2012, 07:47:20 AM »

I didn't want to weigh in here, but a couple of points. The man in question may certainly love children, puppies and flowers. So do a lot of folks anywhere on this planet - whether they are monks or serial killers. I worked in Family Courts for years and rarely, if ever, ran into a parent or care giver who was found to be neglectful or abusive and who didn't love children on some level (I am excluding cases of sexual abuse here) or love their dogs and flowers etc...

What is troubling in this matter are the ideas he propagates via the internet. I find the racial views to be most disturbing. This is not an issue of 'free speech' - the government is not interfering with his right to an opinion or a voice. The Church however - in this case ROCOR - is not bound by the First Amendment (nor is any private employer contrary to popular legend) and as Iconodule properly notes, certain of his expressed opinions are contrary to the teachings of the Church. and they give the casual observer of our Holy Orthodox Faith the wrong impression of our body of teaching. They reinforce preconceptions that Orthodoxy is inherently 'anti' others in a wordly, secular sense - be they Jews or unbelievers or any other 'category.' For that reason - a most important one indeed - it baffles me that defense of his opinions can be viewed as a properly Orthodox Christian option.

I heard a great remark on ESPN sports talk radio yesterday that is relevant here. After a particularly ridiculously opinionated and angry caller, the host said that if he had one wish for his audience it would be that certain listeners would not view critical comments about another person as being what is called 'hating' in modern day American slang. He went on to complain that a frequent argument stopper is that 'you don't respect me' when the disagreement gets heated.

The same may be said of many of our discussions online. Disagreement is usually not 'hating' - it is simply disagreement in most cases. We always fall back on the overused maxim 'Hate the sin, love the sinner' and often we don't mean it. I don't 'hate' this man - I know little of him - I merely disagree with his world view and how he uses the Church in his attempts to legitimize his opinions.  Take off the cassock, ryassa and cross and express your opinion as a man - but don't wrap yourself in the protection of the Church in an effort to add weight to your opinions. After all we are admonished by the Good Shepherd to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. (Matthew 7:15)
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« Reply #109 on: September 07, 2012, 08:53:49 AM »


It is unfortunate to see people tell untruths about Br. Nathanael and slander him, on this forum. Let's please stick to things he actually has said, and please let's not dismiss logic and reason in doing so, even if some things he says or writes seem highly charged or produce sharp reactions.

I'm not sure what you're referring to as slander or untruths. If you're referring to my pointing out that Br. Nathanael is a white nationalist, I have done so using his own words from his own public videos and postings.

So I ask you, Father, if you find the following words at all compatible with the Orthodox Christian worldview:

Quote
White Identity is indeed a necessary component in resisting the nightmare of multi-racialism that the Jewish agenda brought to America and throughout Europe.

International Jewry’s objective, intent, and aim? To destroy the one force that could oppose them: namely, a White Christian political power bloc.

Quote
For in a multi-racial, multi-ethnic, multi-creedal society, only ONE minority with all the money rises to the top: American Jewry.

Quote
But, for the goyim, not only is interracial marriage acceptable, but advances the ADL’s agenda to destroy the last remaining power block that could potentially oppose Jewish hegemony, namely White Christianity.

Whether Nathanael is a nice guy is completely beside the point. He is publicly presenting his white supremacist views as Orthodox teaching and is doing so without any repercussions form the bishops of ROCOR. I would like to think that the bishops simply don't know how far he's gone. He needs to be stopped.
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« Reply #110 on: September 07, 2012, 09:12:59 AM »

To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.

Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.

Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)


A. How do you know that +Hilarion is his bishop? Any sort of evidence would be appreciated.

B. Do you believe that you have such complete knowledge of modern monastism that, if you did not hear of it, it must not be true?
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« Reply #111 on: September 07, 2012, 11:40:52 AM »

They were not members of ROCOR.

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engdocuments/enov_polmon.html - that's all that matters in that case.

What's your point?

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The Russians love St. Seraphim, as a matter of fact.

St. Seraphim was tonsured.

I am aware, as is everyone...
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« Reply #112 on: September 07, 2012, 11:44:12 AM »

To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.

Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.

Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)


A. How do you know that +Hilarion is his bishop? Any sort of evidence would be appreciated.

B. Do you believe that you have such complete knowledge of modern monastism that, if you did not hear of it, it must not be true?

I said his local bishop, it is Archbishop Kyrill. I recommend reading the entirety of my posts before you intercede. And yes, I know for a fact he is.

I never said I had complete knowledge of monasticism, I was just saying what the early church practiced. All I asked for was proof, I never called anyone a liar... I'm pretty sure everyone here is claiming to know just as much, if not more, about monasticism than I, but you pick me because you have a track record with me, mature.

So you are 0-2 on accusations.
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« Reply #113 on: September 07, 2012, 11:56:47 AM »

Very true.  However, having known REAL white supremacists, Brother Nathaneal's remarks are really rather calm.  The boys at Stormfront do not particularly like him, and they know a few things about white supremacists.

He's a white supremacist and I have a very low opinion of ROCA- Agafangel for allowing him to publicly rave without any repercussions.

A white supremest Jew? lol

Boy, you crazy.
I am not going to say anything about Brother Nathanael since I don't know enough about him but there have been examples of this before.
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« Reply #114 on: September 07, 2012, 12:10:24 PM »

celtic, the thing is, we don't practice exactly as the early church did. We've evolved beyond that for various reasons.

St. Anthony and the Desert Fathers practiced only one kind of asceticism. Eventually this kind was superseded by the model throughout the rest of the Eastern Empire. The lone monk could no longer exist and had to at least regularly report to his monastery and to his abbot.

What you must realize also, is that Br. Nathanael is not even practicing the ancient desert model. If he were, we wouldn't ever see him, ever. The desert model wasn't go on your own and go into the very midst of the cities calling attention to yourself on the streets, and in his case, also on the internet. Instead, the desert model was going off into caves and into the wilderness to practice your asceticism. No one ever saw you, and you never saw anyone except for maybe fellow monastics. Nearly your entire life was spent in prayer and reflection.

Also, as mentioned before, Br. Nathanael also wrongly wears a pectoral cross. This is only permitted for ordained clergy who are Priests or higher.

It also seems, by a lot of his actions, that he is trying to play the role of holy fool. The model of holy fool is not a model which purposely calls attention to yourself. It isn't about being a fool for the sake of silliness. The holy fool is a person who is a person who has attained high levels of theosis. Yet his holiness is somewhat masked by various actions which always manifest God, his glory and his will to other humans. The holy fool is also known by almost everyone to be a holy, sane and pious person. He only feigns insanity hide his own holiness.

Br. Nathanael is simply acting silly on a street corner. We can also presume that Br. Nathanael is using his street evangelism to tell more people about the grand conspiracy of the Jewish Zionists and the New World Order. This is not the model of a holy fool.

_________________________________

In the Eastern Orthodox Church today, our practices have evolved from the early models. There have been too many monastics abusing their isolation and other circumstances which have almost abolished the model of the desert.

There was a monk who sought to create a male monastery near my home parish. It didn't come to fruition because the man, although an Orthodox monk, didn't practice asceticism as required by our church. He traveled around the nation never staying in one place and not practicing normal asceticism.

Also at the same time, we can argue that most of our Bishops are not practicing monasticism. That is the simple truth.

_________________________________

As for his supposed "White supremacism", I don't think that is the case. Br. Nathanael isn't a white supremacist, but he is still a dolt when it comes to conspiracy theories. Yes, the Jews want a Jewish nation and they have one. However, there is not some grand conspiracy of Zionists, Freemasons, Illuminati or others who are trying to control the world and create a New World Order.

One has to wonder how much weight Br. Nathanael puts on the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". Sadly, too many in the MP and ROCOR still put weight on this document, which, as it has been proven, is a false, forged document. It's a disgrace to all Orthodox Christians that some Orthodox still believe it is authentic and true.

The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.

9/11 a Zionist conspiracy and a Mossad operation? Are you kidding me?
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« Reply #115 on: September 07, 2012, 12:12:08 PM »

celtic, the thing is, we don't practice exactly as the early church did. We've evolved beyond that for various reasons.

St. Anthony and the Desert Fathers practiced only one kind of asceticism. Eventually this kind was superseded by the model throughout the rest of the Eastern Empire. The lone monk could no longer exist and had to at least regularly report to his monastery and to his abbot.

What you must realize also, is that Br. Nathanael is not even practicing the ancient desert model. If he were, we wouldn't ever see him, ever. The desert model wasn't go on your own and go into the very midst of the cities calling attention to yourself on the streets, and in his case, also on the internet. Instead, the desert model was going off into caves and into the wilderness to practice your asceticism. No one ever saw you, and you never saw anyone except for maybe fellow monastics. Nearly your entire life was spent in prayer and reflection.

Also, as mentioned before, Br. Nathanael also wrongly wears a pectoral cross. This is only permitted for ordained clergy who are Priests or higher.

It also seems, by a lot of his actions, that he is trying to play the role of holy fool. The model of holy fool is not a model which purposely calls attention to yourself. It isn't about being a fool for the sake of silliness. The holy fool is a person who is a person who has attained high levels of theosis. Yet his holiness is somewhat masked by various actions which always manifest God, his glory and his will to other humans. The holy fool is also known by almost everyone to be a holy, sane and pious person. He only feigns insanity hide his own holiness.

Br. Nathanael is simply acting silly on a street corner. We can also presume that Br. Nathanael is using his street evangelism to tell more people about the grand conspiracy of the Jewish Zionists and the New World Order. This is not the model of a holy fool.

_________________________________

In the Eastern Orthodox Church today, our practices have evolved from the early models. There have been too many monastics abusing their isolation and other circumstances which have almost abolished the model of the desert.

There was a monk who sought to create a male monastery near my home parish. It didn't come to fruition because the man, although an Orthodox monk, didn't practice asceticism as required by our church. He traveled around the nation never staying in one place and not practicing normal asceticism.

Also at the same time, we can argue that most of our Bishops are not practicing monasticism. That is the simple truth.

_________________________________

As for his supposed "White supremacism", I don't think that is the case. Br. Nathanael isn't a white supremacist, but he is still a dolt when it comes to conspiracy theories. Yes, the Jews want a Jewish nation and they have one. However, there is not some grand conspiracy of Zionists, Freemasons, Illuminati or others who are trying to control the world and create a New World Order.

One has to wonder how much weight Br. Nathanael puts on the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". Sadly, too many in the MP and ROCOR still put weight on this document, which, as it has been proven, is a false, forged document. It's a disgrace to all Orthodox Christians that some Orthodox still believe it is authentic and true.

The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.

9/11 a Zionist conspiracy and a Mossad operation? Are you kidding me?

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« Reply #116 on: September 07, 2012, 01:46:15 PM »

Br. Nathanael continues to be called a white supremacist, although no one has been able to find a single sentence of his, which expresses white supremacy. I find that to be very telling. In fact, it says more about the people bandying that term about, than it says about Br. Nathanael.

The logical pitfalls of Political Correctness may be seen in the reactions some people have to this idea of a White Christian Political Power Bloc. If an African Christian were calling for an African Christian Political Power Bloc to help protect against the powers of Animist rulers or even Muslim Brotherhoods, none of us would blink an eye. Same if we heard about some call for a League of Arab Christians to protect against the force of Muslim Brotherhoods or despotic secular regimes. It's quite the double standard.

If anyone is unaware that there is a cabal of ultra-powerful bankers, mostly or seminally Jewish, who are very far along in their plans to create a despotic and cruel One World Government, something abundantly documented and easily provable, then that person really needs to get out of the house a little more.

I think the Protocols are fake, but the Mishnah and Talmud contain enough horrible things to eliminate any need to fabricate anything.

With love for all Jewish people and all debaters on this forum, as well as all Orthodox Christians, and all Muslims, and people of any and all ethnic groups ("races" don't really exist in any ultimately measurable form, so I won't include "races" here).   
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« Reply #117 on: September 07, 2012, 01:50:25 PM »

If anyone is unaware that there is a cabal of ultra-powerful bankers, mostly or seminally Jewish, who are very far along in their plans to create a despotic and cruel One World Government, something abundantly documented and easily provable, then that person really needs to get out of the house a little more.

I think the Protocols are fake, but the Mishnah and Talmud contain enough horrible things to eliminate any need to fabricate anything.  

You're insane if you truly believe they want a one-world government. Which by the way, is something the Bible says nothing about, and isn't connected to the Anti-Christ.

If it is abundantly documented and provable, then prove it.

If people in ROCOR actually believe this bunk, then I don't know what to say, they are crazier than I thought. Talk about Hyperdox Herman.
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« Reply #118 on: September 07, 2012, 02:04:11 PM »

Quote
If anyone is unaware that there is a cabal of ultra-powerful bankers, mostly or seminally Jewish, who are very far along in their plans to create a despotic and cruel One World Government,

Could you please provide any information about this?

I have really never understood this theory. There is a perfectly good explanation as to why many jews in the past and today are working as bankers.
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« Reply #119 on: September 07, 2012, 02:25:48 PM »

The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.
Seeing as the Holocaust accounts record that various other groups were targeted, your logic would imply that a "denier" is likewise anti-Slav, anti-Gay, anti-Mason, anti-Roma, anti-Communist, anti-Jehovah's Witness, anti-Catholic, etc. Whatever happened in those camps (and there are very problematic evidence hurdles out there for those who push the official story), it was not a uniquely Jewish experience. Even if it was, however, it would not follow that a "denier" would be anti-Semite. Any more than denying the moon landing makes one anti-American or denying the Robin Hood accounts makes one anti-English.

But on the topic of Br. Nathanael, is he even a "denier"? I don't really keep up with him anymore, but last I remember, he was in the camp that suggested that Zionists perpetuated it to jump start a much larger Zionist movement.
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« Reply #120 on: September 07, 2012, 02:41:42 PM »

This is absurd. The entire concept of "white identity" as "a necessary component in resisting the nightmare of multi-racialism" is blatantly white supremacist. Anyone who can't see this is profoundly naive or dishonest.

Br. Nathanael continues to be called a white supremacist, although no one has been able to find a single sentence of his, which expresses white supremacy. I find that to be very telling. In fact, it says more about the people bandying that term about, than it says about Br. Nathanael.

Brother Nathanael, in this video (which I have posted twice here already and which I recommend you watch) offers pointers to the "white nationalist movement" in how they can become more relevant and influential. Note: he does not at all criticize white nationalism per se, but points to its lack of grounding in Christianity as pitfall. He says:

Quote
For White Nationalism to be viable movement that reaches beyond posting a few words of internet bravado using a fake handler’s name it must begin with understanding the Christian roots of White nations.

So Nathanael does not oppose white nationalism, he just wants to strengthen it by re-establishing it on the basis of "Christianity."

Quote
The logical pitfalls of Political Correctness may be seen in the reactions some people have to this idea of a White Christian Political Power Bloc. If an African Christian were calling for an African Christian Political Power Bloc to help protect against the powers of Animist rulers or even Muslim Brotherhoods, none of us would blink an eye.

No, because it is not comparable. Africa is a continent, not a race, and the animists and Muslim Brotherhoods are on that same continent. Your analogy is silly.

Quote
Same if we heard about some call for a League of Arab Christians to protect against the force of Muslim Brotherhoods or despotic secular regimes. It's quite the double standard.

Arabs of one religion organizing against (predominately) Arabs of another religion is again completely different from "White Christians" organizing against the Jews and their "nightmare of multi-racialism."

Quote
("races" don't really exist in any ultimately measurable form, so I won't include "races" here).   

The white supremacist "Brother" Nathanael does not share your reluctance to talk about race.

Some questions for you Father:

Do you believe "white identity" and a "White Christian Power Bloc" (not just a Christian power bloc, mind you, but a WHITE one) is necessary in resisting international Jewry?

Do you believe the mixture of races in American society is detrimental to Christianity and part of the Jewish elite's plot to undermine the Church?

Do you believe interracial marriage is likewise a tool of the Jews to undermine Christendom?

Do you believe any of the above opinions are compatible with a Christian worldview?
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« Reply #121 on: September 07, 2012, 04:40:12 PM »

The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.
Seeing as the Holocaust accounts record that various other groups were targeted, your logic would imply that a "denier" is likewise anti-Slav, anti-Gay, anti-Mason, anti-Roma, anti-Communist, anti-Jehovah's Witness, anti-Catholic, etc. Whatever happened in those camps (and there are very problematic evidence hurdles out there for those who push the official story), it was not a uniquely Jewish experience. Even if it was, however, it would not follow that a "denier" would be anti-Semite. Any more than denying the moon landing makes one anti-American or denying the Robin Hood accounts makes one anti-English.

But on the topic of Br. Nathanael, is he even a "denier"? I don't really keep up with him anymore, but last I remember, he was in the camp that suggested that Zionists perpetuated it to jump start a much larger Zionist movement.

Br. Nathanael argues in one of his videos that it was only a mere few thousand Jews who were killed, and that the Nazi Party didn't specifically seek to kill & exterminate the Jews.

Yes, the Jews were one group among many, and capitalized on the tragedy and used it to their advantage. But that doesn't mean they weren't specifically pointed out and targeted by the Nazis more especially than the other groups targeted.
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« Reply #122 on: September 07, 2012, 05:41:33 PM »

I am searching for a sort of FAQ about the plans for a One World Government. It's def. a story that has gone "mainstream" in major media outlets, which is very different from the times of my youth. I am searching for something clear and pithy.

To answer some questions: Only one thing is necessary to resist evil powers of whatever kind, and that is prayer and faith and love. I do not see any underlying religious effect from racially mixed marriages. I don't see anything wrong with them. In the case of intermarriages between Anglos and Hispanics, the likeliest demographic effect is to influence the Anglos TOWARDS Christianity. Our Church has no rules against interracial marriages, unlike the Greek Archdiocese in the 1960s/1970s, when publications indicated they banned interracial marriage (at least back then). Was this stance of the GOA incompatible with Christianity? Not sure. The only things ultimately irreconcilable with Christianity are clear heresies and clear violations of Christian morality. Marriage policies have changed and shifted across time, in our Church. There was a big shift in about 450 and another big shift in about 680, for example.

I entirely disagree with this concept that only a few thousand Jews were killed by the Nazi power, and that they did not target Jews. It's ridiculous. Also ridiculous: the statement, glibly repeated by the whole of American academia, that six million Jews were exterminated in the Holocaust. The academics repeat that nonsense to avoid excommunication, disgrace, persecution, and impoverishment. At least there is no one standing with those "guns" to the head of anyone in America, insisting that they parrot "few thousand," "few thousand."
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« Reply #123 on: September 07, 2012, 06:29:34 PM »

I am searching for a sort of FAQ about the plans for a One World Government. It's def. a story that has gone "mainstream" in major media outlets, which is very different from the times of my youth. I am searching for something clear and pithy.

To answer some questions: Only one thing is necessary to resist evil powers of whatever kind, and that is prayer and faith and love. I do not see any underlying religious effect from racially mixed marriages. I don't see anything wrong with them. In the case of intermarriages between Anglos and Hispanics, the likeliest demographic effect is to influence the Anglos TOWARDS Christianity. Our Church has no rules against interracial marriages, unlike the Greek Archdiocese in the 1960s/1970s, when publications indicated they banned interracial marriage (at least back then). Was this stance of the GOA incompatible with Christianity? Not sure. The only things ultimately irreconcilable with Christianity are clear heresies and clear violations of Christian morality. Marriage policies have changed and shifted across time, in our Church. There was a big shift in about 450 and another big shift in about 680, for example.

I entirely disagree with this concept that only a few thousand Jews were killed by the Nazi power, and that they did not target Jews. It's ridiculous. Also ridiculous: the statement, glibly repeated by the whole of American academia, that six million Jews were exterminated in the Holocaust. The academics repeat that nonsense to avoid excommunication, disgrace, persecution, and impoverishment. At least there is no one standing with those "guns" to the head of anyone in America, insisting that they parrot "few thousand," "few thousand."

I really doubt the GOA banned interracial marriages in the 60s & 70s. Ever hear of this guy?
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« Reply #124 on: September 07, 2012, 06:37:15 PM »

To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.

Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.

Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)


A. How do you know that +Hilarion is his bishop? Any sort of evidence would be appreciated.

B. Do you believe that you have such complete knowledge of modern monastism that, if you did not hear of it, it must not be true?

I said his local bishop, it is Archbishop Kyrill. I recommend reading the entirety of my posts before you intercede. And yes, I know for a fact he is.

I never said I had complete knowledge of monasticism, I was just saying what the early church practiced. All I asked for was proof, I never called anyone a liar... I'm pretty sure everyone here is claiming to know just as much, if not more, about monasticism than I, but you pick me because you have a track record with me, mature.

So you are 0-2 on accusations.
And so are you.

1. Carl didn't accuse you of anything.
2. Carl's not picking on you because of any history he has with you, simply because he's not picking on you.

You've now snapped at three different people the last couple of days. Don't you think it's time you stepped back and calmed down a bit?
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« Reply #125 on: September 07, 2012, 08:42:03 PM »

And so are you.

1. Carl didn't accuse you of anything.
2. Carl's not picking on you because of any history he has with you, simply because he's not picking on you.

You've now snapped at three different people the last couple of days. Don't you think it's time you stepped back and calmed down a bit?

He said:
Quote
Do you believe that you have such complete knowledge of modern monastism that, if you did not hear of it, it must not be true?
That sounds like he's accusing me of arrogance.

And
Quote
How do you know that +Hilarion is his bishop?
Why wouldn't I know if he told me (LIKE I STATED EARLIER).

I only snap back at people when they snap at me first. So please leave me be.
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« Reply #126 on: September 07, 2012, 08:58:52 PM »

He said:
Quote
Do you believe that you have such complete knowledge of modern monastism that, if you did not hear of it, it must not be true?
That sounds like he's accusing me of arrogance.
Agreed.
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« Reply #127 on: September 08, 2012, 01:57:24 PM »

If anyone is unaware that there is a cabal of ultra-powerful bankers, mostly or seminally Jewish, who are very far along in their plans to create a despotic and cruel One World Government, something abundantly documented and easily provable, then that person really needs to get out of the house a little more.

I think the Protocols are fake, but the Mishnah and Talmud contain enough horrible things to eliminate any need to fabricate anything.  

You're insane if you truly believe they want a one-world government. Which by the way, is something the Bible says nothing about, and isn't connected to the Anti-Christ.

If it is abundantly documented and provable, then prove it.

If people in ROCOR actually believe this bunk, then I don't know what to say, they are crazier than I thought. Talk about Hyperdox Herman.

Devin--We all know that this is a free-for-all forum, but please, I ask you as a fellow forum member and not as the section moderator, to control your temper a bit. Calling priests insane and other Orthodox jurisdictions crazy is not seemly even a free-for-all section of an Orthodox web site. Besides, this is not good for your health. Do not force me to lock this thread up for a time to let tempers cool. Please.
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« Reply #128 on: September 08, 2012, 05:30:19 PM »

The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.
Seeing as the Holocaust accounts record that various other groups were targeted, your logic would imply that a "denier" is likewise anti-Slav, anti-Gay, anti-Mason, anti-Roma, anti-Communist, anti-Jehovah's Witness, anti-Catholic, etc. Whatever happened in those camps (and there are very problematic evidence hurdles out there for those who push the official story), it was not a uniquely Jewish experience. Even if it was, however, it would not follow that a "denier" would be anti-Semite. Any more than denying the moon landing makes one anti-American or denying the Robin Hood accounts makes one anti-English.

But on the topic of Br. Nathanael, is he even a "denier"? I don't really keep up with him anymore, but last I remember, he was in the camp that suggested that Zionists perpetuated it to jump start a much larger Zionist movement.

There is a subtlety in your argument that I am not getting Ioannis.

The subhumans (Untermensch: Slavs, Jews, Roma, etc) were targeted for extermination and culling, primarily by starvation. The Poles and the Jews were the first to go. Catholic sympathizers of the subhumans with Germanic blood would likely not be tolerated as well.

There are two possibilities that I see off hand. (1) A holocaust denier is antisemitic and clueless that Slavs (for example) are subhuman as well. (2) The denier is a "white Aryan" supremacist-type person. I should note that when I was looking for forums that discussed Eastern Orthodoxy back in 2002-3 most of the links seemed to lead to these white Aryan supremacist groups. At least that was my shocked impression.

There are certainly other possibilities and one of them is probably yours.
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« Reply #129 on: September 08, 2012, 08:36:22 PM »

The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.
Seeing as the Holocaust accounts record that various other groups were targeted, your logic would imply that a "denier" is likewise anti-Slav, anti-Gay, anti-Mason, anti-Roma, anti-Communist, anti-Jehovah's Witness, anti-Catholic, etc. Whatever happened in those camps (and there are very problematic evidence hurdles out there for those who push the official story), it was not a uniquely Jewish experience. Even if it was, however, it would not follow that a "denier" would be anti-Semite. Any more than denying the moon landing makes one anti-American or denying the Robin Hood accounts makes one anti-English.

But on the topic of Br. Nathanael, is he even a "denier"? I don't really keep up with him anymore, but last I remember, he was in the camp that suggested that Zionists perpetuated it to jump start a much larger Zionist movement.

There is a subtlety in your argument that I am not getting Ioannis.

The subhumans (Untermensch: Slavs, Jews, Roma, etc) were targeted for extermination and culling, primarily by starvation. The Poles and the Jews were the first to go. Catholic sympathizers of the subhumans with Germanic blood would likely not be tolerated as well.

There are two possibilities that I see off hand. (1) A holocaust denier is antisemitic and clueless that Slavs (for example) are subhuman as well. (2) The denier is a "white Aryan" supremacist-type person. I should note that when I was looking for forums that discussed Eastern Orthodoxy back in 2002-3 most of the links seemed to lead to these white Aryan supremacist groups. At least that was my shocked impression.

There are certainly other possibilities and one of them is probably yours.

1) How can you say they are both anti-Semitic and clueless? You are trying so hard to throw people in the anti-Semitic category it doesn't make sense.

2) I've met deniers who are white and are certainly not "white supremacists", and I've met deniers who were black (and even Jews!).

Saying one of them is probably him is very judgmental of a person you do not even know anything about.

You think incorrectly throwing out the term "anti-Semitic" automatically makes there argument moot...it doesn't because you don't know how to correctly use that term.

Some holocaust deniers just question why THAT PARTICULAR incident is more pushed in people's face than any other genocide. I'm not a denier of the Holocaust in any right (although I certainly don't think the number of Jewish deaths were 6 million, as it is impossible) (I don't believe it is right to kill any group of people; Jews, Blacks, Whites, Asians, etc), but I don't think it is fair to say the holocaust was better/worse than any other genocide. If I denied the "holocaust" of Ukrainians or Native Americans NO ONE WOULD COMPLAIN AS MUCH AS DENYING THE BLOODY HOLOCAUST. So you better attack deniers of any genocide the same as Holocaust deniers or you are the world's worst hypocrites.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 08:37:57 PM by celticfan1888 » Logged

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« Reply #130 on: September 08, 2012, 09:17:48 PM »

The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.
Seeing as the Holocaust accounts record that various other groups were targeted, your logic would imply that a "denier" is likewise anti-Slav, anti-Gay, anti-Mason, anti-Roma, anti-Communist, anti-Jehovah's Witness, anti-Catholic, etc. Whatever happened in those camps (and there are very problematic evidence hurdles out there for those who push the official story), it was not a uniquely Jewish experience. Even if it was, however, it would not follow that a "denier" would be anti-Semite. Any more than denying the moon landing makes one anti-American or denying the Robin Hood accounts makes one anti-English.

But on the topic of Br. Nathanael, is he even a "denier"? I don't really keep up with him anymore, but last I remember, he was in the camp that suggested that Zionists perpetuated it to jump start a much larger Zionist movement.

There is a subtlety in your argument that I am not getting Ioannis.

The subhumans (Untermensch: Slavs, Jews, Roma, etc) were targeted for extermination and culling, primarily by starvation. The Poles and the Jews were the first to go. Catholic sympathizers of the subhumans with Germanic blood would likely not be tolerated as well.

There are two possibilities that I see off hand. (1) A holocaust denier is antisemitic and clueless that Slavs (for example) are subhuman as well. (2) The denier is a "white Aryan" supremacist-type person. I should note that when I was looking for forums that discussed Eastern Orthodoxy back in 2002-3 most of the links seemed to lead to these white Aryan supremacist groups. At least that was my shocked impression.

There are certainly other possibilities and one of them is probably yours.

1) How can you say they are both anti-Semitic and clueless? You are trying so hard to throw people in the anti-Semitic category it doesn't make sense.

2) I've met deniers who are white and are certainly not "white supremacists", and I've met deniers who were black (and even Jews!).

Saying one of them is probably him is very judgmental of a person you do not even know anything about.

You think incorrectly throwing out the term "anti-Semitic" automatically makes there argument moot...it doesn't because you don't know how to correctly use that term.

Some holocaust deniers just question why THAT PARTICULAR incident is more pushed in people's face than any other genocide. I'm not a denier of the Holocaust in any right (although I certainly don't think the number of Jewish deaths were 6 million, as it is impossible) (I don't believe it is right to kill any group of people; Jews, Blacks, Whites, Asians, etc), but I don't think it is fair to say the holocaust was better/worse than any other genocide. If I denied the "holocaust" of Ukrainians or Native Americans NO ONE WOULD COMPLAIN AS MUCH AS DENYING THE BLOODY HOLOCAUST. So you better attack deniers of any genocide the same as Holocaust deniers or you are the world's worst hypocrites.

The actions of the Third Reich will remain among the greatest of crimes against humanity for a number of reasons.

The German people allowed their political leadership to devolve into insanity. Why this is significant from an historical point of view can be summed up rather succinctly - the Germans were probably the best educated people in western Europe coming into the mid-20th century. Their culture, their musical genius, their industriousness, their scientific accomplishments m their philosophers and yes - their military and political acumen placed Germany at the pinnacle of 20th century Western Civilization in the eyes of many commentators of the time and many historians. The way in which such a highly esteemed culture and 'body politic' was able to dive into the depths of evil and depravity should trouble all of us in the west - including the United States. The Jews had, to all appearances, been assimilated into German culture and the German mind-set in a manner not seen in the rest of Europe. While the vile nationalism of Aryanism had some adherents prior to Weimar and the Nazi election (yes - the Nazi's took power via election and were asked to form a government) but never to the degree where anyone thought it had the power to seize power and control the destiny of a great people.

The sheer scale of what the Nazis did over a period of nearly ten years and the manner in which the industrial, communications, transportation and military powers of the state were marshalled to this incredible evil was remarkable - while at the same time engaging in a two continent, multi-front war which ravaged the west for seven years of total war. It is frightening and must be remembered lest we allow such a thing to ever occur again.

Finally, we have documentary evidence from the first hand accounts of tens of thousands of Allied troops who liberated the camps - American, British, French, Russian and other allied soldiers - Christians, Jews, atheists, communists, royalists, whites, blacks, Asian-Americans - you name it.... If you believe it all to be a conspiracy - well so be it - but you and those who think like you - delude yourselves and deny that which is real.

Finally the Holocaust was not just directed at Jews - Slavs, Roma, the mentally ill, the homosexuals, Allied prisoners of war (particularly Russians and Ukrainians), valiant resistance fighters (many of whom resettled in America after the communist take overs in Eastern Europe and men and women I was proud to get to know - the bravery of simple people never ceases to amaze and inspire me) and many, many men and women of Faith - both Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics and Protestants who took a stand against evil when most looked the other way.

Be on the wrong side of history and be on the side of ignorance and fantasy. It's a free country - but beware of the burdens of history - for those who forget its lessons are sure to repeat its mistakes.

I would just close with a link to this article about the German theologians of the time, Niehbur, Tillich and Bonhoeffer - it is worth reading and praying for their souls and the souls of all who suffered persecution under the Third Reich. Deniers dishonor their sacrifice and the sacrifices of millions of our countrymen and our allies who served the cause of freedom in the Great War by giving the last full measure of devotion. http://www.thefix.com/content/serenity-prayers-desperate-origins-Niehbur-Bonhoeffer-Tillich9965

Finally, I know that none of this will change the minds or hearts of the so-called deniers or the minimizers. So be it, but to remain silent in the face of their claims is to repeat the sin of the majority of good Germans who looked the other way until it was too late.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 09:21:03 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #131 on: September 08, 2012, 09:36:25 PM »

Finally, we have documentary evidence from the first hand accounts of tens of thousands of Allied troops who liberated the camps - American, British, French, Russian and other allied soldiers - Christians, Jews, atheists, communists, royalists, whites, blacks, Asian-Americans - you name it.... If you believe it all to be a conspiracy - well so be it - but you and those who think like you - delude yourselves and deny that which is real.

Be on the wrong side of history and be on the side of ignorance and fantasy. It's a free country - but beware of the burdens of history - for those who forget its lessons are sure to repeat its mistakes.

If you aren't going to read my post, don't reply.

You really ticked me off by saying that. You are the reason internet debates turn into screaming. You built a strawman.
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« Reply #132 on: September 08, 2012, 09:45:46 PM »



Be on the wrong side of history and be on the side of ignorance and fantasy. It's a free country - but beware of the burdens of history - for those who forget its lessons are sure to repeat its mistakes.




Do you know anything about this subject that you have not read in a book?
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« Reply #133 on: September 08, 2012, 10:38:32 PM »



Be on the wrong side of history and be on the side of ignorance and fantasy. It's a free country - but beware of the burdens of history - for those who forget its lessons are sure to repeat its mistakes.




Do you know anything about this subject that you have not read in a book?

I do Punch. Explain what your concern is.
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« Reply #134 on: September 08, 2012, 10:53:46 PM »

The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.
Seeing as the Holocaust accounts record that various other groups were targeted, your logic would imply that a "denier" is likewise anti-Slav, anti-Gay, anti-Mason, anti-Roma, anti-Communist, anti-Jehovah's Witness, anti-Catholic, etc. Whatever happened in those camps (and there are very problematic evidence hurdles out there for those who push the official story), it was not a uniquely Jewish experience. Even if it was, however, it would not follow that a "denier" would be anti-Semite. Any more than denying the moon landing makes one anti-American or denying the Robin Hood accounts makes one anti-English.

But on the topic of Br. Nathanael, is he even a "denier"? I don't really keep up with him anymore, but last I remember, he was in the camp that suggested that Zionists perpetuated it to jump start a much larger Zionist movement.

There is a subtlety in your argument that I am not getting Ioannis.

The subhumans (Untermensch: Slavs, Jews, Roma, etc) were targeted for extermination and culling, primarily by starvation. The Poles and the Jews were the first to go. Catholic sympathizers of the subhumans with Germanic blood would likely not be tolerated as well.

There are two possibilities that I see off hand. (1) A holocaust denier is antisemitic and clueless that Slavs (for example) are subhuman as well. (2) The denier is a "white Aryan" supremacist-type person. I should note that when I was looking for forums that discussed Eastern Orthodoxy back in 2002-3 most of the links seemed to lead to these white Aryan supremacist groups. At least that was my shocked impression.

There are certainly other possibilities and one of them is probably yours.

1) How can you say they are both anti-Semitic and clueless? You are trying so hard to throw people in the anti-Semitic category it doesn't make sense.

2) I've met deniers who are white and are certainly not "white supremacists", and I've met deniers who were black (and even Jews!).

Saying one of them is probably him is very judgmental of a person you do not even know anything about.

You think incorrectly throwing out the term "anti-Semitic" automatically makes there argument moot...it doesn't because you don't know how to correctly use that term.

Some holocaust deniers just question why THAT PARTICULAR incident is more pushed in people's face than any other genocide. I'm not a denier of the Holocaust in any right (although I certainly don't think the number of Jewish deaths were 6 million, as it is impossible) (I don't believe it is right to kill any group of people; Jews, Blacks, Whites, Asians, etc), but I don't think it is fair to say the holocaust was better/worse than any other genocide. If I denied the "holocaust" of Ukrainians or Native Americans NO ONE WOULD COMPLAIN AS MUCH AS DENYING THE BLOODY HOLOCAUST. So you better attack deniers of any genocide the same as Holocaust deniers or you are the world's worst hypocrites.

The actions of the Third Reich will remain among the greatest of crimes against humanity for a number of reasons.

The German people allowed their political leadership to devolve into insanity. Why this is significant from an historical point of view can be summed up rather succinctly - the Germans were probably the best educated people in western Europe coming into the mid-20th century. Their culture, their musical genius, their industriousness, their scientific accomplishments m their philosophers and yes - their military and political acumen placed Germany at the pinnacle of 20th century Western Civilization in the eyes of many commentators of the time and many historians. The way in which such a highly esteemed culture and 'body politic' was able to dive into the depths of evil and depravity should trouble all of us in the west - including the United States. The Jews had, to all appearances, been assimilated into German culture and the German mind-set in a manner not seen in the rest of Europe. While the vile nationalism of Aryanism had some adherents prior to Weimar and the Nazi election (yes - the Nazi's took power via election and were asked to form a government) but never to the degree where anyone thought it had the power to seize power and control the destiny of a great people.

The sheer scale of what the Nazis did over a period of nearly ten years and the manner in which the industrial, communications, transportation and military powers of the state were marshalled to this incredible evil was remarkable - while at the same time engaging in a two continent, multi-front war which ravaged the west for seven years of total war. It is frightening and must be remembered lest we allow such a thing to ever occur again.

Finally, we have documentary evidence from the first hand accounts of tens of thousands of Allied troops who liberated the camps - American, British, French, Russian and other allied soldiers - Christians, Jews, atheists, communists, royalists, whites, blacks, Asian-Americans - you name it.... If you believe it all to be a conspiracy - well so be it - but you and those who think like you - delude yourselves and deny that which is real.

Finally the Holocaust was not just directed at Jews - Slavs, Roma, the mentally ill, the homosexuals, Allied prisoners of war (particularly Russians and Ukrainians), valiant resistance fighters (many of whom resettled in America after the communist take overs in Eastern Europe and men and women I was proud to get to know - the bravery of simple people never ceases to amaze and inspire me) and many, many men and women of Faith - both Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics and Protestants who took a stand against evil when most looked the other way.

Be on the wrong side of history and be on the side of ignorance and fantasy. It's a free country - but beware of the burdens of history - for those who forget its lessons are sure to repeat its mistakes.

I would just close with a link to this article about the German theologians of the time, Niehbur, Tillich and Bonhoeffer - it is worth reading and praying for their souls and the souls of all who suffered persecution under the Third Reich. Deniers dishonor their sacrifice and the sacrifices of millions of our countrymen and our allies who served the cause of freedom in the Great War by giving the last full measure of devotion. http://www.thefix.com/content/serenity-prayers-desperate-origins-Niehbur-Bonhoeffer-Tillich9965

Finally, I know that none of this will change the minds or hearts of the so-called deniers or the minimizers. So be it, but to remain silent in the face of their claims is to repeat the sin of the majority of good Germans who looked the other way until it was too late.



I very much appreciate and concur with this post Podkarpatska (hopefully, and with joy, I will learn how to spell your name without thinking).

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« Reply #135 on: September 08, 2012, 11:12:15 PM »

The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.
Seeing as the Holocaust accounts record that various other groups were targeted, your logic would imply that a "denier" is likewise anti-Slav, anti-Gay, anti-Mason, anti-Roma, anti-Communist, anti-Jehovah's Witness, anti-Catholic, etc. Whatever happened in those camps (and there are very problematic evidence hurdles out there for those who push the official story), it was not a uniquely Jewish experience. Even if it was, however, it would not follow that a "denier" would be anti-Semite. Any more than denying the moon landing makes one anti-American or denying the Robin Hood accounts makes one anti-English.

But on the topic of Br. Nathanael, is he even a "denier"? I don't really keep up with him anymore, but last I remember, he was in the camp that suggested that Zionists perpetuated it to jump start a much larger Zionist movement.

There is a subtlety in your argument that I am not getting Ioannis.

The subhumans (Untermensch: Slavs, Jews, Roma, etc) were targeted for extermination and culling, primarily by starvation. The Poles and the Jews were the first to go. Catholic sympathizers of the subhumans with Germanic blood would likely not be tolerated as well.

There are two possibilities that I see off hand. (1) A holocaust denier is antisemitic and clueless that Slavs (for example) are subhuman as well. (2) The denier is a "white Aryan" supremacist-type person. I should note that when I was looking for forums that discussed Eastern Orthodoxy back in 2002-3 most of the links seemed to lead to these white Aryan supremacist groups. At least that was my shocked impression.

There are certainly other possibilities and one of them is probably yours.

1) How can you say they are both anti-Semitic and clueless? You are trying so hard to throw people in the anti-Semitic category it doesn't make sense.

2) I've met deniers who are white and are certainly not "white supremacists", and I've met deniers who were black (and even Jews!).

Saying one of them is probably him is very judgmental of a person you do not even know anything about.

You think incorrectly throwing out the term "anti-Semitic" automatically makes there argument moot...it doesn't because you don't know how to correctly use that term.

Some holocaust deniers just question why THAT PARTICULAR incident is more pushed in people's face than any other genocide. I'm not a denier of the Holocaust in any right (although I certainly don't think the number of Jewish deaths were 6 million, as it is impossible) (I don't believe it is right to kill any group of people; Jews, Blacks, Whites, Asians, etc), but I don't think it is fair to say the holocaust was better/worse than any other genocide. If I denied the "holocaust" of Ukrainians or Native Americans NO ONE WOULD COMPLAIN AS MUCH AS DENYING THE BLOODY HOLOCAUST. So you better attack deniers of any genocide the same as Holocaust deniers or you are the world's worst hypocrites.

Celticfan, out of all of the posts in this thread I wrote to Ioannis Climacus because I respect him and did not understand what he was trying to say. As noted, I introduced some thoughts that came immediately to mind. I assumed that neither of them were what he was getting at. Yet you seem to be attacking me for not assuming that one of them is what he was getting at.

I am very perplexed as to your response to my post. I would appreciate your pointing out how I could have been misinterpreted because I do not see it. I will not reply to your post, I just need to be educated as to where my writing style erred.

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« Reply #136 on: September 08, 2012, 11:14:38 PM »

The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.
Seeing as the Holocaust accounts record that various other groups were targeted, your logic would imply that a "denier" is likewise anti-Slav, anti-Gay, anti-Mason, anti-Roma, anti-Communist, anti-Jehovah's Witness, anti-Catholic, etc. Whatever happened in those camps (and there are very problematic evidence hurdles out there for those who push the official story), it was not a uniquely Jewish experience. Even if it was, however, it would not follow that a "denier" would be anti-Semite. Any more than denying the moon landing makes one anti-American or denying the Robin Hood accounts makes one anti-English.

But on the topic of Br. Nathanael, is he even a "denier"? I don't really keep up with him anymore, but last I remember, he was in the camp that suggested that Zionists perpetuated it to jump start a much larger Zionist movement.

There is a subtlety in your argument that I am not getting Ioannis.

The subhumans (Untermensch: Slavs, Jews, Roma, etc) were targeted for extermination and culling, primarily by starvation. The Poles and the Jews were the first to go. Catholic sympathizers of the subhumans with Germanic blood would likely not be tolerated as well.

There are two possibilities that I see off hand. (1) A holocaust denier is antisemitic and clueless that Slavs (for example) are subhuman as well. (2) The denier is a "white Aryan" supremacist-type person. I should note that when I was looking for forums that discussed Eastern Orthodoxy back in 2002-3 most of the links seemed to lead to these white Aryan supremacist groups. At least that was my shocked impression.

There are certainly other possibilities and one of them is probably yours.
I am suggesting that "denial" does not imply "anti-Semitism". One could probably say that most "deniers" are anti-Semitic, but to assume this of all of them is faulty logic because the root of anti-Semitism is not in "denying" the Holocaust. Holocaust "denial" is on its own simply an idea. "Deniers" can be of any race, creed, philosophy, etc. The only concept which they universally oppose is the official story behind the Holocaust.
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« Reply #137 on: September 08, 2012, 11:23:31 PM »



Be on the wrong side of history and be on the side of ignorance and fantasy. It's a free country - but beware of the burdens of history - for those who forget its lessons are sure to repeat its mistakes.




Do you know anything about this subject that you have not read in a book?

I do Punch. Explain what your concern is.

The problem is that I know, and have interviewed, people both on the German side as well as some that were in concentration camps.  That a large number of people died in this camps in not a question.  The magnitude is.  My Grandmother, who lived through the war and spent four years in a Danish concentration camp, noted that directly after the war, nearly every shop was run by a Jew, and a good number of professionals were Jewish.  She knew this first hand because she looked VERY Jewish, and many of the merchants actually thought that she was a Jew.  She would remark; "if we killed so many of them, where did all of these come from?"

Likewise, I knew personally a priest who was incarcerated in Dachau concentration camp along with +Nicolai. His stories do not quite match everything heard in the Jewish propaganda. As we get further away from the events of WWII, and more information becomes available, there is much to cause one to take a lot of the holocaust story with a grain of salt.  Now denying it altogether?  That is another matter.  Still, doubting the complete accuracy of the Holocaust story does not make one antisemitic.  Nor does it necessarily make one ignorant.  In fact, it may simply mean that the individual in question has more information than is available on TV, and realizes that, as Napoleon once wrote, history is nothing but lies that have been agree upon - and history is written (at least initially) by the victor.  
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« Reply #138 on: September 08, 2012, 11:23:46 PM »

The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.
Seeing as the Holocaust accounts record that various other groups were targeted, your logic would imply that a "denier" is likewise anti-Slav, anti-Gay, anti-Mason, anti-Roma, anti-Communist, anti-Jehovah's Witness, anti-Catholic, etc. Whatever happened in those camps (and there are very problematic evidence hurdles out there for those who push the official story), it was not a uniquely Jewish experience. Even if it was, however, it would not follow that a "denier" would be anti-Semite. Any more than denying the moon landing makes one anti-American or denying the Robin Hood accounts makes one anti-English.

But on the topic of Br. Nathanael, is he even a "denier"? I don't really keep up with him anymore, but last I remember, he was in the camp that suggested that Zionists perpetuated it to jump start a much larger Zionist movement.

There is a subtlety in your argument that I am not getting Ioannis.

The subhumans (Untermensch: Slavs, Jews, Roma, etc) were targeted for extermination and culling, primarily by starvation. The Poles and the Jews were the first to go. Catholic sympathizers of the subhumans with Germanic blood would likely not be tolerated as well.

There are two possibilities that I see off hand. (1) A holocaust denier is antisemitic and clueless that Slavs (for example) are subhuman as well. (2) The denier is a "white Aryan" supremacist-type person. I should note that when I was looking for forums that discussed Eastern Orthodoxy back in 2002-3 most of the links seemed to lead to these white Aryan supremacist groups. At least that was my shocked impression.

There are certainly other possibilities and one of them is probably yours.
I am suggesting that "denial" does not imply "anti-Semitism". One could probably say that most "deniers" are anti-Semitic, but to assume this of all of them is faulty logic because the root of anti-Semitism is not in "denying" the Holocaust. Holocaust "denial" is on its own simply an idea. "Deniers" can be of any race, creed, philosophy, etc. The only concept which they universally oppose is the official story behind the Holocaust.

Thank you Ioannis
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« Reply #139 on: September 08, 2012, 11:24:27 PM »

Br. Nathanael argues in one of his videos that it was only a mere few thousand Jews who were killed, and that the Nazi Party didn't specifically seek to kill & exterminate the Jews.
Last time I recall, and again, this was years ago, Br. Nathanael had stated that roughly 200,000 - 300,000 had perished in the camps (which was also the number given by the Red Cross). While I am not suggesting untruthfulness on your part, could you please cite your statement with a particular video?

Edit : HENRY MAKOW TALKS TO BROTHER NATHANIEL OF REAL JEW NEWS

Skip to 8:30 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn16ThKUdIU&feature=related
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« Reply #140 on: September 08, 2012, 11:27:20 PM »

This is a good point. Certainly, many Jews are aware that the official story of the Holocaust is bunk. This does not make them anti-Semitic. There is also a tendency that once the official version of something is exploded as lies, one over-compensates in one's estimation of what really happened. Unfortunately, that's like over-correcting when you are steering a car; it can get you in trouble.

I think only the numbers of deaths are bunk; the rest seems well documented. The only beefs I have with the popular misconception is that (a) the data is falsified; and (b) there is a tendency to make it out to be the biggest genocide or most murderous event of the 20th century, or Of All Time--whereas many more millions were killed in equally horrible campaigns last century. Still, for any thinking feeling human being, there has to be a particular horror occasioned by the mathematical precision, the efficiency, of the Jewish Holocaust. It makes one's blood run cold.

People with similar plans for the world abound these days. Nothing has really changed since the Holocaust.
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« Reply #141 on: September 09, 2012, 12:01:09 AM »



Be on the wrong side of history and be on the side of ignorance and fantasy. It's a free country - but beware of the burdens of history - for those who forget its lessons are sure to repeat its mistakes.




Do you know anything about this subject that you have not read in a book?

I do Punch. Explain what your concern is.

The problem is that I know, and have interviewed, people both on the German side as well as some that were in concentration camps.  That a large number of people died in this camps in not a question.  The magnitude is.  My Grandmother, who lived through the war and spent four years in a Danish concentration camp, noted that directly after the war, nearly every shop was run by a Jew, and a good number of professionals were Jewish.  She knew this first hand because she looked VERY Jewish, and many of the merchants actually thought that she was a Jew.  She would remark; "if we killed so many of them, where did all of these come from?"

Likewise, I knew personally a priest who was incarcerated in Dachau concentration camp along with +Nicolai. His stories do not quite match everything heard in the Jewish propaganda. As we get further away from the events of WWII, and more information becomes available, there is much to cause one to take a lot of the holocaust story with a grain of salt.  Now denying it altogether?  That is another matter.  Still, doubting the complete accuracy of the Holocaust story does not make one antisemitic.  Nor does it necessarily make one ignorant.  In fact, it may simply mean that the individual in question has more information than is available on TV, and realizes that, as Napoleon once wrote, history is nothing but lies that have been agree upon - and history is written (at least initially) by the victor.  

Let me give you my perspective which is the opposite of yours. My mother lived through the occupation of Crete by the Germans and was forced to watch them shoot her uncles and cousins. She steadfastly believed that the British abandoned Crete before the Germans came. No arguments or evidence to the contrary would sway her and there were many arguments between my father and mother on this issue. Do I believe my mother who was there on the ground? No! The vast preponderance of evidence by historians  indicates that she was unaware of what was going on. And believe me I love her more than you could ever know.

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« Reply #142 on: September 09, 2012, 07:41:49 AM »

Prior to the WW II Białystok was 42% Jewish (about 45 k of Jews lived there). Now there are 5 of them (people, not %). Similar changes occurred in other towns of the area.

Just saying...
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« Reply #143 on: September 09, 2012, 09:02:55 AM »

This is a good point. Certainly, many Jews are aware that the official story of the Holocaust is bunk. This does not make them anti-Semitic. There is also a tendency that once the official version of something is exploded as lies, one over-compensates in one's estimation of what really happened. Unfortunately, that's like over-correcting when you are steering a car; it can get you in trouble.

I think only the numbers of deaths are bunk; the rest seems well documented. The only beefs I have with the popular misconception is that (a) the data is falsified; and (b) there is a tendency to make it out to be the biggest genocide or most murderous event of the 20th century, or Of All Time--whereas many more millions were killed in equally horrible campaigns last century. Still, for any thinking feeling human being, there has to be a particular horror occasioned by the mathematical precision, the efficiency, of the Jewish Holocaust. It makes one's blood run cold.

People with similar plans for the world abound these days. Nothing has really changed since the Holocaust.

Agreed.
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« Reply #144 on: September 09, 2012, 09:25:49 AM »



Be on the wrong side of history and be on the side of ignorance and fantasy. It's a free country - but beware of the burdens of history - for those who forget its lessons are sure to repeat its mistakes.




Do you know anything about this subject that you have not read in a book?

I do Punch. Explain what your concern is.

The problem is that I know, and have interviewed, people both on the German side as well as some that were in concentration camps.  That a large number of people died in this camps in not a question.  The magnitude is.  My Grandmother, who lived through the war and spent four years in a Danish concentration camp, noted that directly after the war, nearly every shop was run by a Jew, and a good number of professionals were Jewish.  She knew this first hand because she looked VERY Jewish, and many of the merchants actually thought that she was a Jew.  She would remark; "if we killed so many of them, where did all of these come from?"

Likewise, I knew personally a priest who was incarcerated in Dachau concentration camp along with +Nicolai. His stories do not quite match everything heard in the Jewish propaganda. As we get further away from the events of WWII, and more information becomes available, there is much to cause one to take a lot of the holocaust story with a grain of salt.  Now denying it altogether?  That is another matter.  Still, doubting the complete accuracy of the Holocaust story does not make one antisemitic.  Nor does it necessarily make one ignorant.  In fact, it may simply mean that the individual in question has more information than is available on TV, and realizes that, as Napoleon once wrote, history is nothing but lies that have been agree upon - and history is written (at least initially) by the victor.  

Let me give you my perspective which is the opposite of yours. My mother lived through the occupation of Crete by the Germans and was forced to watch them shoot her uncles and cousins. She steadfastly believed that the British abandoned Crete before the Germans came. No arguments or evidence to the contrary would sway her and there were many arguments between my father and mother on this issue. Do I believe my mother who was there on the ground? No! The vast preponderance of evidence by historians  indicates that she was unaware of what was going on. And believe me I love her more than you could ever know.



Her uncles and cousins were probably part of the island's defense.  The people of Crete fought strongly against the Germans, and it was the first time (and pretty much the only time outside of the Balkans) that a large civilian population resisted the Germans with force of arms.  Unfortunately, due to the number of civilian resistors, and the fact that the combatants wore no armbands or insignia, the Germans pretty well shot everyone when they ran into resistance.  It should be noted that even women and priests fought bravely against the Germans in that battle.  The elite German paratroopers were so shot up by the end that Germany never mounted a raid on this scale by paratroopers again.

As to the British, they were just stupid.  Churchill full well understood the value of Crete and had no intention of handing it over to the Germans.  They even had broken the German code by then and pretty much knew what the Germans were up to.  Somehow, it never occured to them that the Germans just may use the airfields for bringing in heavier armed troops.  The British did not betray the people of Crete by abandoning them, they betrayed them by being stupid.  I can understand your mother's feelings, and as a descendant of the Germans that attacked that country, I have nothing but respect for the people.  They had guts.  But then again, I think all of history previous to the war should have told the Germans that the civilian population would not take kindly to their invasion.  It was so obvious that some historians suggested that opposition within the Nazi party (Admiral Canaris) intended for the operation to fail to embarrass Hitler.  While there is some evidence for that, I think that the Germans simply did not know what they were getting into.
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« Reply #145 on: September 09, 2012, 11:04:49 AM »



Be on the wrong side of history and be on the side of ignorance and fantasy. It's a free country - but beware of the burdens of history - for those who forget its lessons are sure to repeat its mistakes.




Do you know anything about this subject that you have not read in a book?

I do Punch. Explain what your concern is.

The problem is that I know, and have interviewed, people both on the German side as well as some that were in concentration camps.  That a large number of people died in this camps in not a question.  The magnitude is.  My Grandmother, who lived through the war and spent four years in a Danish concentration camp, noted that directly after the war, nearly every shop was run by a Jew, and a good number of professionals were Jewish.  She knew this first hand because she looked VERY Jewish, and many of the merchants actually thought that she was a Jew.  She would remark; "if we killed so many of them, where did all of these come from?"

Likewise, I knew personally a priest who was incarcerated in Dachau concentration camp along with +Nicolai. His stories do not quite match everything heard in the Jewish propaganda. As we get further away from the events of WWII, and more information becomes available, there is much to cause one to take a lot of the holocaust story with a grain of salt.  Now denying it altogether?  That is another matter.  Still, doubting the complete accuracy of the Holocaust story does not make one antisemitic.  Nor does it necessarily make one ignorant.  In fact, it may simply mean that the individual in question has more information than is available on TV, and realizes that, as Napoleon once wrote, history is nothing but lies that have been agree upon - and history is written (at least initially) by the victor.  

Let me give you my perspective which is the opposite of yours. My mother lived through the occupation of Crete by the Germans and was forced to watch them shoot her uncles and cousins. She steadfastly believed that the British abandoned Crete before the Germans came. No arguments or evidence to the contrary would sway her and there were many arguments between my father and mother on this issue. Do I believe my mother who was there on the ground? No! The vast preponderance of evidence by historians  indicates that she was unaware of what was going on. And believe me I love her more than you could ever know.



Her uncles and cousins were probably part of the island's defense.  The people of Crete fought strongly against the Germans, and it was the first time (and pretty much the only time outside of the Balkans) that a large civilian population resisted the Germans with force of arms.  Unfortunately, due to the number of civilian resistors, and the fact that the combatants wore no armbands or insignia, the Germans pretty well shot everyone when they ran into resistance.  It should be noted that even women and priests fought bravely against the Germans in that battle.  The elite German paratroopers were so shot up by the end that Germany never mounted a raid on this scale by paratroopers again.

As to the British, they were just stupid.  Churchill full well understood the value of Crete and had no intention of handing it over to the Germans.  They even had broken the German code by then and pretty much knew what the Germans were up to.  Somehow, it never occured to them that the Germans just may use the airfields for bringing in heavier armed troops.  The British did not betray the people of Crete by abandoning them, they betrayed them by being stupid.  I can understand your mother's feelings, and as a descendant of the Germans that attacked that country, I have nothing but respect for the people.  They had guts.  But then again, I think all of history previous to the war should have told the Germans that the civilian population would not take kindly to their invasion.  It was so obvious that some historians suggested that opposition within the Nazi party (Admiral Canaris) intended for the operation to fail to embarrass Hitler.  While there is some evidence for that, I think that the Germans simply did not know what they were getting into.

Thank you for saying this Punch. I decided my writing about the battle for Crete would seem like boasting.

There is a documentary, funded by the San Diego Chargers (?), on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_11th_Day:_Crete_1941
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« Reply #146 on: September 09, 2012, 01:51:04 PM »

The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.
Seeing as the Holocaust accounts record that various other groups were targeted, your logic would imply that a "denier" is likewise anti-Slav, anti-Gay, anti-Mason, anti-Roma, anti-Communist, anti-Jehovah's Witness, anti-Catholic, etc. Whatever happened in those camps (and there are very problematic evidence hurdles out there for those who push the official story), it was not a uniquely Jewish experience. Even if it was, however, it would not follow that a "denier" would be anti-Semite. Any more than denying the moon landing makes one anti-American or denying the Robin Hood accounts makes one anti-English.

But on the topic of Br. Nathanael, is he even a "denier"? I don't really keep up with him anymore, but last I remember, he was in the camp that suggested that Zionists perpetuated it to jump start a much larger Zionist movement.

There is a subtlety in your argument that I am not getting Ioannis.

The subhumans (Untermensch: Slavs, Jews, Roma, etc) were targeted for extermination and culling, primarily by starvation. The Poles and the Jews were the first to go. Catholic sympathizers of the subhumans with Germanic blood would likely not be tolerated as well.

There are two possibilities that I see off hand. (1) A holocaust denier is antisemitic and clueless that Slavs (for example) are subhuman as well. (2) The denier is a "white Aryan" supremacist-type person. I should note that when I was looking for forums that discussed Eastern Orthodoxy back in 2002-3 most of the links seemed to lead to these white Aryan supremacist groups. At least that was my shocked impression.

There are certainly other possibilities and one of them is probably yours.

1) How can you say they are both anti-Semitic and clueless? You are trying so hard to throw people in the anti-Semitic category it doesn't make sense.

2) I've met deniers who are white and are certainly not "white supremacists", and I've met deniers who were black (and even Jews!).

Saying one of them is probably him is very judgmental of a person you do not even know anything about.

You think incorrectly throwing out the term "anti-Semitic" automatically makes there argument moot...it doesn't because you don't know how to correctly use that term.

Some holocaust deniers just question why THAT PARTICULAR incident is more pushed in people's face than any other genocide. I'm not a denier of the Holocaust in any right (although I certainly don't think the number of Jewish deaths were 6 million, as it is impossible) (I don't believe it is right to kill any group of people; Jews, Blacks, Whites, Asians, etc), but I don't think it is fair to say the holocaust was better/worse than any other genocide. If I denied the "holocaust" of Ukrainians or Native Americans NO ONE WOULD COMPLAIN AS MUCH AS DENYING THE BLOODY HOLOCAUST. So you better attack deniers of any genocide the same as Holocaust deniers or you are the world's worst hypocrites.

The actions of the Third Reich will remain among the greatest of crimes against humanity for a number of reasons.

The German people allowed their political leadership to devolve into insanity. Why this is significant from an historical point of view can be summed up rather succinctly - the Germans were probably the best educated people in western Europe coming into the mid-20th century. Their culture, their musical genius, their industriousness, their scientific accomplishments m their philosophers and yes - their military and political acumen placed Germany at the pinnacle of 20th century Western Civilization in the eyes of many commentators of the time and many historians. The way in which such a highly esteemed culture and 'body politic' was able to dive into the depths of evil and depravity should trouble all of us in the west - including the United States. The Jews had, to all appearances, been assimilated into German culture and the German mind-set in a manner not seen in the rest of Europe. While the vile nationalism of Aryanism had some adherents prior to Weimar and the Nazi election (yes - the Nazi's took power via election and were asked to form a government) but never to the degree where anyone thought it had the power to seize power and control the destiny of a great people.

The sheer scale of what the Nazis did over a period of nearly ten years and the manner in which the industrial, communications, transportation and military powers of the state were marshalled to this incredible evil was remarkable - while at the same time engaging in a two continent, multi-front war which ravaged the west for seven years of total war. It is frightening and must be remembered lest we allow such a thing to ever occur again.

Finally, we have documentary evidence from the first hand accounts of tens of thousands of Allied troops who liberated the camps - American, British, French, Russian and other allied soldiers - Christians, Jews, atheists, communists, royalists, whites, blacks, Asian-Americans - you name it.... If you believe it all to be a conspiracy - well so be it - but you and those who think like you - delude yourselves and deny that which is real.

Finally the Holocaust was not just directed at Jews - Slavs, Roma, the mentally ill, the homosexuals, Allied prisoners of war (particularly Russians and Ukrainians), valiant resistance fighters (many of whom resettled in America after the communist take overs in Eastern Europe and men and women I was proud to get to know - the bravery of simple people never ceases to amaze and inspire me) and many, many men and women of Faith - both Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics and Protestants who took a stand against evil when most looked the other way.

Be on the wrong side of history and be on the side of ignorance and fantasy. It's a free country - but beware of the burdens of history - for those who forget its lessons are sure to repeat its mistakes.

I would just close with a link to this article about the German theologians of the time, Niehbur, Tillich and Bonhoeffer - it is worth reading and praying for their souls and the souls of all who suffered persecution under the Third Reich. Deniers dishonor their sacrifice and the sacrifices of millions of our countrymen and our allies who served the cause of freedom in the Great War by giving the last full measure of devotion. http://www.thefix.com/content/serenity-prayers-desperate-origins-Niehbur-Bonhoeffer-Tillich9965

Finally, I know that none of this will change the minds or hearts of the so-called deniers or the minimizers. So be it, but to remain silent in the face of their claims is to repeat the sin of the majority of good Germans who looked the other way until it was too late.



I agree with the thesis that this particular holocaust was remarkable because it was perpetrated by Germans, one of the most cultured and civilized nations in the world. Of course, it was also remarkable because it was indeed carried with the efficiency and thoroughness that Germans are known for. I have no idea why folks are so fixated on the numbers; the fact is that the German Nazis were determined to wipe out the Jewish race and they almost succeeded. This is indeed a holocaust that stands out in history and to belittle or downgrade its historical significance is beyond me. Now, there have been other mass killings, that were occasioned by the willful targeting of certain people. I am not disregarding the accidental killing of vast numbers of people, as happened to the Native Americans in the New World, due to illnesses which were brought amongst them by the Europeans. I am thinking of the fact that the greatest number of killings were done by Communists in the pursuit of the greater good, just as the Nazis justified themselves. However, the Jewish Holocaust remains the greatest holocaust in the Twentieth Century  in terms of percentage killed of the targeted population.
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« Reply #147 on: September 09, 2012, 01:53:47 PM »

Prior to the WW II Białystok was 42% Jewish (about 45 k of Jews lived there). Now there are 5 of them (people, not %). Similar changes occurred in other towns of the area.

Just saying...

And the population of Jews in modern Israel skyrocketed in the same time period. Just saying.
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« Reply #148 on: September 09, 2012, 02:44:32 PM »

Finally, we have documentary evidence from the first hand accounts of tens of thousands of Allied troops who liberated the camps - American, British, French, Russian and other allied soldiers - Christians, Jews, atheists, communists, royalists, whites, blacks, Asian-Americans - you name it.... If you believe it all to be a conspiracy - well so be it - but you and those who think like you - delude yourselves and deny that which is real.

Be on the wrong side of history and be on the side of ignorance and fantasy. It's a free country - but beware of the burdens of history - for those who forget its lessons are sure to repeat its mistakes.

If you aren't going to read my post, don't reply.

You really ticked me off by saying that. You are the reason internet debates turn into screaming. You built a strawman.

I, and most other Orthodox Christians including our beloved Bishops and priests that I have been honored to know over my lifetime, are appalled by the continued nonsense that many spew in the name of our Church.

You, and the other defenders of 'Brother'  Kepner, built the strawman in defense of his hate filled nonsense. Such nonsense defiles the true Orthodox heroes of the era from St. Gorazd of Prague to St. Alexander of Orenburg and little noted heroes such as the Orthodox priest and faithful of the tiny village of Vilage (now  known as Svetlice) in eastern Slovakia.

Yes, I am 'book learned' and some in modern America, such makes one's arguments apparently less important than those formed by bias and opinion.  And Punch, by the way, my late father in law was a decorated jump Sgt. of the 82nd airborne with a Silver Star from the Bulge and three campaign jumps during the war. He provided me with just one of many first hand narratives with which I am familiar.

Defending the truth does NOT equate to defending the policies of the Zionist state of Israel and its 'special relationship' with the political leaders of this country and many in western Europe. I am not a defender of Zionism or Israel and I fully believe that American policy, as well as that of western Europe, since the war has been motivated by the guilt of not dealing with the 'Jewish' question over the centuries and allowing it slide into the abyss into which the Germans pushed it.  I would suggest you write your OCA bishop with your concerns about these issues, being as bold in your assertions as you are online and see what sort of response you might get.
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« Reply #149 on: September 09, 2012, 04:02:27 PM »

And Punch, by the way, my late father in law was a decorated jump Sgt. of the 82nd airborne with a Silver Star from the Bulge and three campaign jumps during the war. He provided me with just one of many first hand narratives with which I am familiar.

If one of those jumps was Market Garden, the British hosed over more of your family than just your mother's side. 
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« Reply #150 on: September 09, 2012, 06:54:23 PM »

And Punch, by the way, my late father in law was a decorated jump Sgt. of the 82nd airborne with a Silver Star from the Bulge and three campaign jumps during the war. He provided me with just one of many first hand narratives with which I am familiar.

If one of those jumps was Market Garden, the British hosed over more of your family than just your mother's side. 

Ah yes, nothing like resorting to either a non sequitur or an ad hominem when one has nothing intelligenty to offer in return in a debate. Why don't you go on down to Ft. Bragg and challenge some of today's heroes there in the 82nd to a debate regarding the history of their division and its efforts in the second world war. There is little point to continue with this discussion.
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« Reply #151 on: September 09, 2012, 07:21:44 PM »

And Punch, by the way, my late father in law was a decorated jump Sgt. of the 82nd airborne with a Silver Star from the Bulge and three campaign jumps during the war. He provided me with just one of many first hand narratives with which I am familiar.

If one of those jumps was Market Garden, the British hosed over more of your family than just your mother's side. 

Ah yes, nothing like resorting to either a non sequitur or an ad hominem when one has nothing intelligenty to offer in return in a debate. Why don't you go on down to Ft. Bragg and challenge some of today's heroes there in the 82nd to a debate regarding the history of their division and its efforts in the second world war. There is little point to continue with this discussion.
What exactly is supposed to be debated? Were you looking for an argument surrounding the evidence for the Holocaust? If so, that topic has been thoroughly exausted on this forum before. I think most of us here are more interested in discussing Br. Nathanael (who isn't even a "denier").
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« Reply #152 on: September 09, 2012, 07:42:25 PM »

I want to make it clear that I have not defended any strange views of Br. Nathanael.

He and I disagree, obviously, on the Holocaust. That's just one example.

But I tend to speak up for people who have been falsely accused.
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« Reply #153 on: September 09, 2012, 07:45:34 PM »

I want to make it clear that I have not defended any strange views of Br. Nathanael.

He and I disagree, obviously, on the Holocaust. That's just one example.

But I tend to speak up for people who have been falsely accused.

Of what has Nathanael been falsely accused?
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« Reply #154 on: September 09, 2012, 08:26:44 PM »

I did not, in my previous reply, state that Br. Nathanael was falsely accused. Just to keep things logical.

However, he seems to be falsely accused of racism. No one has produced any outright evidence for it, and it's a very weighty charge.
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« Reply #155 on: September 09, 2012, 08:36:03 PM »

All I can say is I love this guy, his videos are insightful, and he is not against Judaism (except seeing it as an incorrect faith), but against ZIONISM, which is elitist dominating Jews.

His content is excellent, articulate, and his backdrops are breathtaking.
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« Reply #156 on: September 09, 2012, 08:42:24 PM »

Br. Nathanael argues in one of his videos that it was only a mere few thousand Jews who were killed, and that the Nazi Party didn't specifically seek to kill & exterminate the Jews.
Last time I recall, and again, this was years ago, Br. Nathanael had stated that roughly 200,000 - 300,000 had perished in the camps (which was also the number given by the Red Cross). While I am not suggesting untruthfulness on your part, could you please cite your statement with a particular video?

Edit : HENRY MAKOW TALKS TO BROTHER NATHANIEL OF REAL JEW NEWS

Skip to 8:30 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn16ThKUdIU&feature=related

This is the video:
http://youtu.be/b8_Wndy3D5s
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« Reply #157 on: September 09, 2012, 09:03:36 PM »

And Punch, by the way, my late father in law was a decorated jump Sgt. of the 82nd airborne with a Silver Star from the Bulge and three campaign jumps during the war. He provided me with just one of many first hand narratives with which I am familiar.

If one of those jumps was Market Garden, the British hosed over more of your family than just your mother's side. 

Ah yes, nothing like resorting to either a non sequitur or an ad hominem when one has nothing intelligenty to offer in return in a debate. Why don't you go on down to Ft. Bragg and challenge some of today's heroes there in the 82nd to a debate regarding the history of their division and its efforts in the second world war. There is little point to continue with this discussion.

Maybe you should learn to read English.  The failure of Market Garden was a failure of British planning, not that of the 82 or 101st airborn.  They took their objectives.  I would guarantee you that not one of the men at Bragg would disagree with my assessment.  Hence my statement that if he was involved with Market Garden, the British would have hosed over more than your mother's family in Crete.  A lot of American paratroopers died during that battle that should have not been fought in the first place (not to mention British Paras and the Poles, who were just plain wasted, I believe intentionally).  Had the resources been given to Patton (including the 82nd), the war would likely have been over a lot sooner.  Maybe you should stop trying to find controversy where there is none.  If you misunderstand my words so completely, why should I believe that you have the capacity to understand anyone, let alone Brother Nathanael?
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« Reply #158 on: September 09, 2012, 09:12:43 PM »

However, he seems to be falsely accused of racism. No one has produced any outright evidence for it, and it's a very weighty charge.

I have several times produced quite incontrovertible evidence from his own words. Only someone in desperate denial could come to a different conclusion.
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« Reply #159 on: September 09, 2012, 09:31:04 PM »

Br. Nathanael argues in one of his videos that it was only a mere few thousand Jews who were killed, and that the Nazi Party didn't specifically seek to kill & exterminate the Jews.
Last time I recall, and again, this was years ago, Br. Nathanael had stated that roughly 200,000 - 300,000 had perished in the camps (which was also the number given by the Red Cross). While I am not suggesting untruthfulness on your part, could you please cite your statement with a particular video?

Edit : HENRY MAKOW TALKS TO BROTHER NATHANIEL OF REAL JEW NEWS

Skip to 8:30 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn16ThKUdIU&feature=related

This is the video:
http://youtu.be/b8_Wndy3D5s
Thank you.

However, he seems to be falsely accused of racism. No one has produced any outright evidence for it, and it's a very weighty charge.

I have several times produced quite incontrovertible evidence from his own words. Only someone in desperate denial could come to a different conclusion.
No you haven't. You have stated that racialism invariably leads to racism, but you have not provided a single quote of Br. Nathanael advocating the superiority/inferiority of a particular race.
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« Reply #160 on: September 09, 2012, 09:47:58 PM »

Racialism is racism. The attempt to distinguish the two is just white nationalist spin, like the KKK's attempt to brand itself a "white rights organization."

Here are Nathanael's words again (emphases mine):

Quote
When the highly acclaimed author and historian Hillaire Belloc exclaimed, “Europe is the Church and the Church is Europe!” he was simply expressing the fact that it was Christianity that made Europe and the worldwide civilization it produced and NOT the pagan philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.

And this Christian Faith — if one merely takes a tour of the European landscape with its countless Cathedrals, Monasteries and Churches from which living people (yes, racially white) — built that very Western Civilization that White Nationalists bemoan the decline of.

You see, a kind of manifest destiny was conferred upon White Europeans whose lineage can be traced to the Biblical figure of Japheth – Noah’s third son and progenitor of the peoples of Europe.

St Justin Martyr of the 2nd Century in his “Dialogue with Trypho the Jew” brought to light the mystery of Noah’s Old Testament prophecy that God would enlarge the tents of Japheth under whose roof Noah’s other two sons – Shem, (father of the Semitic people which included the Hebrews), and Ham, (father of the black race) – would dwell, in the new and superseding era of the Christian Church.

White Identity is indeed a necessary component in resisting the nightmare of multi-racialism that the Jewish agenda brought to America and throughout Europe.

International Jewry’s objective, intent, and aim? To destroy the one force that could oppose them: namely, a White Christian political power bloc.

Several things are clear here:

Nathanael believes that European ("white") civilization and Christianity are synonymous (he approvingly quotes Belloc: "Europe is the Church and the Church is Europe").

The "white race" was given a special mission to build a Christian civilization, apart from other races and above them.

Only a white Christian power bloc (not a Hispanic one, not a black one) is capable of opposing "international Jewry". This means the supremacy of white people as defenders of Christendom.

In decrying "the nightmare of multiracialism", Nathanael solidifies his presentation of Christianity as something primarily for white people. The real Church has always been multiracial from its very beginnings. In the Church, people of different "races" share something much more intimate than land or political power- they share a Chalice and a Body.

Nathanael is therefore a heretic for denying the Catholic character of the Church.

And if there is any doubt still that he is a racist, it can only exist in the minds of confused or willfully deluded people whose own latent sympathy for white nationalism blinds them.
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« Reply #161 on: September 09, 2012, 09:55:56 PM »

Finally, we have documentary evidence from the first hand accounts of tens of thousands of Allied troops who liberated the camps - American, British, French, Russian and other allied soldiers - Christians, Jews, atheists, communists, royalists, whites, blacks, Asian-Americans - you name it.... If you believe it all to be a conspiracy - well so be it - but you and those who think like you - delude yourselves and deny that which is real.

Be on the wrong side of history and be on the side of ignorance and fantasy. It's a free country - but beware of the burdens of history - for those who forget its lessons are sure to repeat its mistakes.

If you aren't going to read my post, don't reply.

You really ticked me off by saying that. You are the reason internet debates turn into screaming. You built a strawman.

I, and most other Orthodox Christians including our beloved Bishops and priests that I have been honored to know over my lifetime, are appalled by the continued nonsense that many spew in the name of our Church.

You, and the other defenders of 'Brother'  Kepner, built the strawman in defense of his hate filled nonsense. Such nonsense defiles the true Orthodox heroes of the era from St. Gorazd of Prague to St. Alexander of Orenburg and little noted heroes such as the Orthodox priest and faithful of the tiny village of Vilage (now  known as Svetlice) in eastern Slovakia.

Yes, I am 'book learned' and some in modern America, such makes one's arguments apparently less important than those formed by bias and opinion.  And Punch, by the way, my late father in law was a decorated jump Sgt. of the 82nd airborne with a Silver Star from the Bulge and three campaign jumps during the war. He provided me with just one of many first hand narratives with which I am familiar.

Defending the truth does NOT equate to defending the policies of the Zionist state of Israel and its 'special relationship' with the political leaders of this country and many in western Europe. I am not a defender of Zionism or Israel and I fully believe that American policy, as well as that of western Europe, since the war has been motivated by the guilt of not dealing with the 'Jewish' question over the centuries and allowing it slide into the abyss into which the Germans pushed it.  I would suggest you write your OCA bishop with your concerns about these issues, being as bold in your assertions as you are online and see what sort of response you might get.

No, you accused me of being a holocaust denier (which I am not), and I am insulted by such. That is your strawman. I demand an apology because I am scandalized you call me that. I've never even said anything implying I was.

Fact of the matter is, you didn't read my posts and reply to any of my points. You just falsely called me a "conspiracy theorist" and "holocaust denier" and acted like that somehow proves your point. It doesn't, any whiney teenager can accomplish what you did by your method. Making up false accusations to try to win a debate? Psh, grow up.
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« Reply #162 on: September 09, 2012, 10:07:20 PM »

Racialism is racism. The attempt to distinguish the two is just white nationalist spin, like the KKK's attempt to brand itself a "white rights organization."

Here are Nathanael's words again (emphases mine):

Quote
When the highly acclaimed author and historian Hillaire Belloc exclaimed, “Europe is the Church and the Church is Europe!” he was simply expressing the fact that it was Christianity that made Europe and the worldwide civilization it produced and NOT the pagan philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.

And this Christian Faith — if one merely takes a tour of the European landscape with its countless Cathedrals, Monasteries and Churches from which living people (yes, racially white) — built that very Western Civilization that White Nationalists bemoan the decline of.

You see, a kind of manifest destiny was conferred upon White Europeans whose lineage can be traced to the Biblical figure of Japheth – Noah’s third son and progenitor of the peoples of Europe.

St Justin Martyr of the 2nd Century in his “Dialogue with Trypho the Jew” brought to light the mystery of Noah’s Old Testament prophecy that God would enlarge the tents of Japheth under whose roof Noah’s other two sons – Shem, (father of the Semitic people which included the Hebrews), and Ham, (father of the black race) – would dwell, in the new and superseding era of the Christian Church.

White Identity is indeed a necessary component in resisting the nightmare of multi-racialism that the Jewish agenda brought to America and throughout Europe.

International Jewry’s objective, intent, and aim? To destroy the one force that could oppose them: namely, a White Christian political power bloc.

Several things are clear here:

Nathanael believes that European ("white") civilization and Christianity are synonymous (he approvingly quotes Belloc: "Europe is the Church and the Church is Europe").

The "white race" was given a special mission to build a Christian civilization, apart from other races and above them.
You are still putting words in Br. Nathanael's mouth. Yes, he believes the white race has a special role to play in defending Christianity. He even believes this was ordained by God. This, however, is not enough to make him into a supremacist. Were it so, it would be equally logical to suggest that the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament were [Hebrew] supremacists (seeing as Israel was, at the time, defined primarily by lineage)

In decrying "the nightmare of multiracialism", Nathanael solidifies his presentation of Christianity as something primarily for white people. The real Church has always been multiracial from its very beginnings. In the Church, people of different "races" share something much more intimate than land or political power- they share a Chalice and a Body.

Nathanael is therefore a heretic for denying the Catholic character of the Church.
No, not once does Br. Nathanael present the Church in such a manner. He has never advocated racial exclusiveness. While disagreeable, this can be likened to the belief of certain Russians and Greeks that their respective nations were chosen by God for a special purpose.
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« Reply #163 on: September 09, 2012, 10:41:29 PM »

Yes, he believes the white race has a special role to play in defending Christianity. He even believes this was ordained by God. This, however, is not enough to make him into a supremacist.


He believes the white race not only has a special role, but that only the white race is capable of forming the Christian bulwark against the Jews. Yes, that is a white supremacist position.

Quote
Were it so, it would be equally logical to suggest that the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament were [Hebrew] supremacists (seeing as Israel was, at the time, defined primarily by lineage)

The Israelites were in fact God's chosen people. There are no chosen people now, apart from the whole Church.

Quote
No, not once does Br. Nathanael present the Church in such a manner. He has never advocated racial exclusiveness. While disagreeable, this can be likened to the belief of certain Russians and Greeks that their respective nations were chosen by God for a special purpose.

You are willfully ignoring what is right in front of you. Nathanael time and again rails against "the nightmare of multiracialism" and interracial marriage. In other words, he is in favor of racial exclusivism.

One can believe that certain nations have a special mission without tying that mission to a particular racial identity or condemning those who intermarry from that nation.

Those who oppose a multiracial society oppose the Church. Those who revile interracial marriage revile God's saints.

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« Reply #164 on: September 09, 2012, 10:42:45 PM »

John, do you agree with Br Nathanael or are you just debating about his views?
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Ioannis Climacus
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« Reply #165 on: September 09, 2012, 11:15:17 PM »

He believes the white race not only has a special role, but that only the white race is capable of forming the Christian bulwark against the Jews. Yes, that is a white supremacist position.
No, its not a white supremacist position. You could say that the vast majority of people who hold such a view are indeed white supremacists, but there is no logical ground to exclusively connect the two. For example, only males may be priests. This is not sexism, but rather an acknowledgement of a role that only men may play. This can indeed be likened to Br. Nathanael's views on race.

You are willfully ignoring what is right in front of you. Nathanael time and again rails against "the nightmare of multiracialism" and interracial marriage. In other words, he is in favor of racial exclusivism.
You took my use of "racial exclusiveness" out of context. I was specifically referencing the Church, of which Br. Nathanael has never advocated as such (which is the only way that his position could slightly be construed as 'heretical'). It still does not follow, however, that anti-multiracialism is in of it self racist. As a trend, you could say that most anti-multiracialist do carry racist sentiment, but this is not always the case (as seen with both Br. Nathanael and Spengler). The problem, Iconodule, is that you are only seeing the issues in black and white. There are a great number of positions that people have that do not fall into one of two extremes (namely multiracialism and racial supremacism).

John, do you agree with Br Nathanael or are you just debating about his views?
On some things, I agree with Br. Nathanael (mostly anti-Zionism), on others, I disagree, and on a great many, I am agnostic. Now, as far as racial theories go, I am in agreement with neither Br. Nathanael nor Spengler. I see race as a neutral factor, so I have no objections to interracial marriage or multiracialism. I do, however, have objections to both false allegations against Br. Nathanael (namely his supposed racism) and to ideological newspeak (i.e. the tendency to quantify all ideas into one of two diametrically opposed camps).
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Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
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« Reply #166 on: September 09, 2012, 11:40:36 PM »


Fact of the matter is, you didn't read my posts and reply to any of my points. You just falsely called me a "conspiracy theorist" and "holocaust denier" and acted like that somehow proves your point. It doesn't, any whiney teenager can accomplish what you did by your method. Making up false accusations to try to win a debate? Psh, grow up.

I don't think that he can read.
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« Reply #167 on: September 09, 2012, 11:47:19 PM »


Fact of the matter is, you didn't read my posts and reply to any of my points. You just falsely called me a "conspiracy theorist" and "holocaust denier" and acted like that somehow proves your point. It doesn't, any whiney teenager can accomplish what you did by your method. Making up false accusations to try to win a debate? Psh, grow up.

I don't think that he can read.

I hope that is so, otherwise he's just a tad rude huh?  laugh
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« Reply #168 on: September 10, 2012, 11:17:37 PM »


Fact of the matter is, you didn't read my posts and reply to any of my points. You just falsely called me a "conspiracy theorist" and "holocaust denier" and acted like that somehow proves your point. It doesn't, any whiney teenager can accomplish what you did by your method. Making up false accusations to try to win a debate? Psh, grow up.

I don't think that he can read.

I hope that is so, otherwise he's just a tad rude huh?  laugh

Many folks here have been quite rude and emotional, coming close to ad hominem usage. I am locking this as I consult with the moderator team on the ad hominem issue. Second Chance
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« Reply #169 on: September 19, 2012, 10:59:40 AM »

This thread is now unlocked. Please refrain from ad hominem attacks. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
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Ergib
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« Reply #170 on: September 19, 2012, 01:35:06 PM »

Boy oh boy! I shouldn't have read some of the comments posted here! ...my head is now hurting!

Racism is the last thing I want read about on any Orthodox Christian sites. Embarrassed
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 01:39:29 PM by Ergib » Logged
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« Reply #171 on: September 19, 2012, 02:50:34 PM »

Boy oh boy! I shouldn't have read some of the comments posted here! ...my head is now hurting!

Racism is the last thing I want read about on any Orthodox Christian sites. Embarrassed

Good luck.

Racism, Nationalism, and Ethnicism (polysemy intentional) run amok.
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« Reply #172 on: September 19, 2012, 04:12:54 PM »

Boy oh boy! I shouldn't have read some of the comments posted here! ...my head is now hurting!

Racism is the last thing I want read about on any Orthodox Christian sites. Embarrassed

Scandinavians are Gods chosen people!

JK

Just ignore it, it is everywhere. laugh
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 04:13:31 PM by celticfan1888 » Logged

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