OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 30, 2014, 04:17:31 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: 43% of Americans Apparently Believe that God's Intervention Aids Tim Tebow  (Read 2327 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,472


Pokrov


WWW
« on: January 13, 2012, 04:21:40 PM »

According to a recent poll, apparently 43% of Americans believe that God favors the football player, Tim Tebow and intervenes on his behalf. http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Sports/2012/0112/Poll-God-helps-Tim-Tebow-win-football-games.-Does-Tim-Tebow-agree

I suppose the corollary is that He is punishing the losers or the droppers of passes? I was taught that we are to be thankful to God for the gifts we receive and the talents which are given to us. What we do with them and how they impact others, however, is up to us. Remember that parable about the servants and the talents? Matthew 25:14-30 The concept that many Americans seem to have of God is one of an omniscient Santa Claus dispensing His Grace off of some sort of eternal good and naughty list.
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2012, 04:36:39 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A) I am happy enough that 43% of Americans believe in ANYTHING anymore, let alone miracles Wink

B) Stop hatin Tim Tebow yo, the brother deserves his propz as both a ridiculously talented athlete and also clearly a man of faith.

By the way, Jesus is nothing new to football, what is different is that the cameras and writers have decided to highlight whenever Tebow mentions God whereas traditionally they have just let those same kinds of comments by other players fly under the radar.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2012, 04:39:38 PM »

In 43 percent of America, religion=football.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,426


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 04:40:05 PM »

This Tebow thing is stupid. If this is the thing that they can slam Tebow for, AND have it stick, then Tim Tebow is then next Dan Marino (minus Ace Ventura, and the snazzy leather gloves).

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,472


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2012, 04:42:57 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A) I am happy enough that 43% of Americans believe in ANYTHING anymore, let alone miracles Wink

B) Stop hatin Tim Tebow yo, the brother deserves his propz as both a ridiculously talented athlete and also clearly a man of faith.

By the way, Jesus is nothing new to football, what is different is that the cameras and writers have decided to highlight whenever Tebow mentions God whereas traditionally they have just let those same kinds of comments by other players fly under the radar.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I am not 'hating' Tebow. If you read the article I cited, it is clear that he doesn't view God's blessings in such a simplistic manner.

Before the game, he prayed aloud: "Lord put a wall of protection around me and my teammates today, and we go out there and we can honor you with everything we do and say. I love you in Jesus' name." During the fourth quarter, he prayed: "Dear Jesus, I need you. Please come through for me. No matter what happens, win or lose, give me the strength to honor you.  Two weeks earlier, his choice of scripture when asked by Broncos Head Coach John Fox to address the team again spoke more to a desire to express communal strength and courage than an overt desire to win. He quoted Proverbs 27:17, which states: "Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."


Frankly, most people if they reflect upon their response wouldn't put it in such simplistic terms either.

I still don't know what the Steelers did to tick off.....oh, well - nevermind that!  Wink
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 04:47:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I do like that the article pointed out that its not just faith that has made Tebow a good QB, it is his personality, and folks on the Broncos have rallied behind his leadership precisely because he is not merely a good athlete, but a good leader.  That is a talent in and of itself in this era of superstar primadonas  who think the game is all about just themselves.  Also, folks have missed how good an athlete Tebow is.  He was sacked TEN TIMES in the Patriots loss, and he has led his team to five fourth quarter come-from-behind wins and FOUR OVERTIME victories, that is not just a miracle, that is talent plain and simple.  Talent is what let Tebow set an all-time NFL record for passing in the post-season (11 s overtime victory plus the highest yards per pass at 31.6 and also a record for having threw THREE post-50 yarders)




I still don't know what the Steelers did to tick off.....oh, well - nevermind that!  Wink

As  Ravens fan I can tell you, its because they're the Steelers Wink

The real question is what did the Raiderz do? Oh right, no defense..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 04:55:53 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2012, 05:20:52 PM »

According to a recent poll, apparently 43% of Americans believe that God favors the football player, Tim Tebow and intervenes on his behalf. http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Sports/2012/0112/Poll-God-helps-Tim-Tebow-win-football-games.-Does-Tim-Tebow-agree

I suppose the corollary is that He is punishing the losers or the droppers of passes?
Just because God might "favor" Tebow, doesn't mean that Tebow is going to win, right?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 06:31:16 PM »

I still don't know what the Steelers did to tick off.....oh, well - nevermind that!  Wink

Just ask any Begals fan.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,960


black metal cat


« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2012, 06:35:11 PM »

I still don't know what the Steelers did to tick off.....oh, well - nevermind that!  Wink

Just ask any Begals fan.

I've heard those creatures are rare these days...  police
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 06:35:27 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,637


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2012, 08:04:06 PM »

Nonsense, I've seen bagels and beagles. They both exist.  Wink
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2012, 10:26:42 PM »

Nonsense, I've seen bagels and beagles. They both exist.  Wink
But have you seen a Bengali beagle eat a bagel?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,960


black metal cat


« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2012, 10:39:11 PM »

Nonsense, I've seen bagels and beagles. They both exist.  Wink
But have you seen a Bengali beagle eat a bagel?

mind=blown
Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,585


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2012, 06:56:25 PM »

Ridiculous. Everybody knows that Polamalu is the only football player to recieve God's intervention.

Logged

As I dissipate, Christ precipitates.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2012, 07:03:08 PM »


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Ridiculous. Everybody knows that Polamalu is the only football player to recieve God's intervention.



Really? Then where are the Steelers now?

I would also like to add that more than 43% of Americans naively believed that both the Saints and the Packers would crush their opponents, and look at how that went, and now it seems 43% of sports writers and commentators are again favoring the Giants and the Patriots as if they had completely forgotten how wrong they were about favoring the Packers and the Saints in the first place Wink



stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,960


black metal cat


« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2012, 07:23:44 PM »


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Ridiculous. Everybody knows that Polamalu is the only football player to recieve God's intervention.



Really? Then where are the Steelers now?

God favors Troy. Big Ben and James Harrison... not so much Wink
Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,585


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2012, 07:30:34 PM »

I believe a "conversion of the Steelers" a la Baptism of the Rus' is in order.

Logged

As I dissipate, Christ precipitates.
That person
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 1,158


Long live Commie Superman


« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2012, 09:22:42 PM »

I still don't know what the Steelers did to tick off.....oh, well - nevermind that!  Wink

Just ask any Begals fan.

I've heard those creatures are rare these days...  police
Such is often the case with righteous men.
Logged

"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo

Movie reviews you can trust.
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2012, 02:13:31 AM »

I believe a "conversion of the Steelers" a la Baptism of the Rus' is in order.


My sister and her husband would love that.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,472


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2012, 11:11:45 AM »

I believe a "conversion of the Steelers" a la Baptism of the Rus' is in order.


My sister and her husband would love that.

I have a priest friend who was a candidate for a bishop's seat and is a rabid 'stiller' fan. We joked that our friends would chip in and buy him a set of black and gold vestments, akin to the one in the icon and he could become the team chaplain. He didn't become a bishop, but I don't think it was a reflection on God's favor, or lack thereof, of the Steelers.
Logged
Timon
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,490



« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2012, 11:20:03 AM »

if God really helped teams based on a players religion, the steelers would win the super bowl every year because Polamalu is Orthodox!
Logged

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

— Chrysostom

BLOG
Timon
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,490



« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2012, 11:20:57 AM »

ok. what I said was already covered, as i shouldve assumed it wouldve been. didnt read the whole thread first.
Logged

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

— Chrysostom

BLOG
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2012, 01:49:20 PM »

Polamalu previously stated that his crossing himself before and after every play are thankful prayers for all he has been given.

It's not surprising that Tebow says pretty much the same thing.

The only folks who froth about "God's not interested in who wins a football game!" clearly identify themselves as the sort of people who've never "taken a knee" on a sports field.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,472


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2012, 01:55:04 PM »

I am not questioning either Tim Tebow's nor Troy's motivations, I think that they are proper and sincere. I am questioning the view of God that many in American culture who profess to be religious seem to have, which is that of a God who is a mechanical dispenser of whimsical favors or negative things.
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,637


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2012, 02:58:01 PM »

if God really helped teams based on a players religion, the steelers would win the super bowl every year because Polamalu is Orthodox!

I think he has won it a couple of times...  Wink One of the Pittsburgh fans here can update us on this.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2012, 03:45:39 PM »

I am questioning the view of God that many in American culture who profess to be religious seem to have, which is that of a God who is a mechanical dispenser of whimsical favors or negative things.
I'm reminded of the last Andy Rooney monologue that I watched (it was quite some time ago) where he mocked the idea of praying to God for something. "If God wanted us to have something," he said, "wouldn't He just give it to us?" [emphasis inflected]

While some may approve of his view as it might relate to praying for a winning lottery ticket or a new car, I suggest that his logic was meant to apply to things such as praying for guidance, strength to overcome a challenge, or peace.

I chose never to watch one of his segments again. Didn't even have to pray to make that happen.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,472


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2012, 04:27:41 PM »

I am questioning the view of God that many in American culture who profess to be religious seem to have, which is that of a God who is a mechanical dispenser of whimsical favors or negative things.
I'm reminded of the last Andy Rooney monologue that I watched (it was quite some time ago) where he mocked the idea of praying to God for something. "If God wanted us to have something," he said, "wouldn't He just give it to us?" [emphasis inflected]

While some may approve of his view as it might relate to praying for a winning lottery ticket or a new car, I suggest that his logic was meant to apply to things such as praying for guidance, strength to overcome a challenge, or peace.

I chose never to watch one of his segments again. Didn't even have to pray to make that happen.

Indeed, that vision of God that I am referring to is one that many appear to hold and more appear to mock - especially those who despise religion. Makes you think.....
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,038



WWW
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2013, 09:31:01 AM »


Tim Tebow cut by New York Jets

I have no idea about anything concerning football.....was he not a good player?

http://www.clickondetroit.com/sports/football/tim-tebow-cut-by-new-york-jets/-/2271344/19933980/-/98k6tcz/-/index.html
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,472


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2013, 09:55:48 AM »

I'm sure we will hear the common mantra of American Protestants presuming to have a direct line to God's "plan."
Logged
That person
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 1,158


Long live Commie Superman


« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2013, 11:58:03 AM »


Tim Tebow cut by New York Jets

I have no idea about anything concerning football.....was he not a good player?

http://www.clickondetroit.com/sports/football/tim-tebow-cut-by-new-york-jets/-/2271344/19933980/-/98k6tcz/-/index.html
Not particularly. He's very athletic (and for once that's not a euphemism), but he can't throw very accurately and his play calling takes a lot of unnecessary risks. This makes him very fun to watch though.
Logged

"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo

Movie reviews you can trust.
Gunnarr
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,753



« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2013, 03:05:40 PM »

Is football any different than chariot racing? "They race around the track speeding to get to the finish, but they do not realize they are speeding only to the devil"
Logged

I am a demonic servant! Beware!
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,014


"My god is greater."


« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2013, 03:16:06 PM »

Is football any different than chariot racing?

Yes, it's a lot more boring.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2013, 03:34:31 PM »


Tim Tebow cut by New York Jets

I have no idea about anything concerning football.....was he not a good player?

http://www.clickondetroit.com/sports/football/tim-tebow-cut-by-new-york-jets/-/2271344/19933980/-/98k6tcz/-/index.html
He isn't good at all in the majors. Nobody will want to pick him up.

Considering Rex Ryan wants to destroy the Jets, it was no surprise he was picked up by them.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,506



« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2013, 12:08:35 AM »

Is football any different than chariot racing?

Yes, it's a lot more boring.

.sig worthy.

I just might enjoy a good tractor pull more myself as well.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,685


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2013, 12:59:54 AM »

That's not too surprising for the same nation with something like 56% of its population believing that the world is only 10,000 years old.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,320



« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2013, 09:00:24 AM »

Is football any different than chariot racing?

Yes, it's a lot more boring.

Only if your an Eagles fan.  Grin
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,506



« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2013, 10:16:58 AM »

The concept that many Americans seem to have of God is one of an omniscient Santa Claus dispensing His Grace off of some sort of eternal good and naughty list.

I think once you believe in an omnipotent god and a god who is necessary for all things to exist from their creation onward you end up with rather difficult straits to navigate.

Dismissing it as Santa Claus nonsense is a bit unfair. The Scripture itself speaks to God's intervention on behalf of people at times due to their righteousness. And it speaks to God punishing those who He doesn't find righteous or punishing even those He does find to be righteous to make a vague point.

You characterization seems close to deism, although I am 100% sure you are nothing close to a deist. I just think certain aspects of "naive" Christianity have their roots more within authentic Christian thought than many would like to admit.

God is the author of all things. If someone scores a touchdown, it is only in virtue of God's will that it is so. How one develops how God's will is articulated within the created order and how He relates to that articulation is obviously a complicated subject.  See every apparent contradiction everyone who has reflected for a moment has considered since the revelation of a single omniscient, benevolent, omnipotent, necessary, and active god.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 10:18:34 AM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2013, 10:56:11 AM »

God is the author of all things. If someone scores a touchdown, it is only in virtue of God's will that it is so. How one develops how God's will is articulated within the created order and how He relates to that articulation is obviously a complicated subject.  See every apparent contradiction everyone who has reflected for a moment has considered since the revelation of a single omniscient, benevolent, omnipotent, necessary, and active god.

God's providence is said to be terribly selective: “I shall show love on whomever I love, and I shall take pity on whomever I pity” (Ex. 33:9; Rom. 9:15). The rest seem to be more or less left to the stars, fate, chance. Or "general" providence (rain and sunshine over righteous and wicked alike).

Then there are the conflicting (?) stories about the destruction of Sodom (could have been prevented for the sake of a few righteous people) and that of Niniveh (was spared because God was sorry for the many, even though the prophet refused to intercede for them).

Anyways, "who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God". (1 Cor. 2:11)  And: "My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Is. 55:8-9)

I'm not sure St. John Chrysostom would have agreed that God's providence had much if anything to do with who won the hippodrome races in his day, though. But no man ever knows...

   
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 11:06:24 AM by Romaios » Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,506



« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2013, 11:21:36 AM »

I'm not sure St. John Chrysostom would have agreed that God's providence had much if anything to do with who won the hippodrome races in his day, though. But no man ever knows... 

Arguably not, but he wasn't doing systematic theology as such, he was first and foremost a pastor in the truest sense taking up the call Christ gave Peter.

Your choice of Scripture doesn't suggest any are left to chance, although I would agree there does seem to be no clear and definitive statement from the Jewish Scripture exactly the degree of God's engagement in the world. I sorta have an understanding how practicing Jews today understand such engagement, but I lack your expertise and judgement about the matter in antiquity and would submit to whatever conclusion you have come to. 

But if you look at the words of mine you quoted, we are in the world of the theological which has long run outside Scripture. If as a Christian you are willing to say God is not any one of the following: omnipotent, necessary, omniscient, necessary, benevolent, always active, then I guess you can get out of those difficult straits. (I think Scripturally you could argue some of the terms are not accurate, but given Christian tradition I would say you can't throw any out.)

Process theology is an answer.

This is one of the places (to take up a tangent that was going nowhere elsewhere) where I think Islam shows itself to be hardly more "simple" than Christian thought. I really wish someone could show me some decent overview of how Islam handles their extremely obvious and clear understanding that all comes from God and how they reconcile that agency within creation. As I have mentioned elsewhere, everything that I have read which takes this seriously ends up making as much sense as Leibniz's Monadology, which while I admire, I have a hard time finding persuasive.

So if you have any suggestions about a great Islamic treatment of the matter I would love to know, as I think it could be somewhat insightful.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,637


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2013, 12:56:35 PM »

Of course, this brings up the deeper question: does God like the Jets or the Giants?
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,320



« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2013, 01:02:07 PM »

Of course, this brings up the deeper question: does God like the Jets or the Giants?

No
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,472


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2013, 01:07:11 PM »

Of course, this brings up the deeper question: does God like the Jets or the Giants?

No

Obviously the Giants - the Bible tells us so:  Genesis 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." Nothing there about "jets."  Wink
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,506



« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2013, 02:36:46 PM »

Of course, this brings up the deeper question: does God like the Jets or the Giants?

No

Obviously the Giants - the Bible tells us so:  Genesis 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." Nothing there about "jets."  Wink


Nice!

I hope Romaios can work in some crazy allusion to jets within the Talmud or something.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
That person
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 1,158


Long live Commie Superman


« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2013, 04:52:38 PM »

Of course, this brings up the deeper question: does God like the Jets or the Giants?
God is no sort of New Jersey fan. After all, the only team to actually admit to being there is the Devils. The Jets and Giants are therefore devils in disguise.
Logged

"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo

Movie reviews you can trust.
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 721



« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2013, 05:10:36 PM »

Is football any different than chariot racing?

Yes, it's a lot more boring.

Which still puts it way ahead of soccer (where the fans have to riot to fight off the boredom).
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,637


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2013, 07:08:47 PM »

Of course, this brings up the deeper question: does God like the Jets or the Giants?
God is no sort of New Jersey fan. After all, the only team to actually admit to being there is the Devils. The Jets and Giants are therefore devils in disguise.

The Giants are building a new stadium in Queens.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.142 seconds with 71 queries.