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Priolo Gargallo
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« on: December 31, 2011, 11:50:05 AM »

Hello, everybody!
This is my first post, and I'm inquiring into Holy Orthodoxy, and I am seriously considering making the near by Orthodox church my parish. How would a Catholic, who isn't too sure if he wants to renounce Rome and become Orthodox be received by the parish and priest (I have previously attended the church for vespers and one divine liturgy and know the priest and his wife)? Would they ask me to either become Orthodox or leave? If this helps, the parish is under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church of America. Many Years!
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« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2011, 12:45:33 PM »

Hello, everybody!
This is my first post, and I'm inquiring into Holy Orthodoxy, and I am seriously considering making the near by Orthodox church my parish. How would a Catholic, who isn't too sure if he wants to renounce Rome and become Orthodox be received by the parish and priest (I have previously attended the church for vespers and one divine liturgy and know the priest and his wife)? Would they ask me to either become Orthodox or leave? If this helps, the parish is under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church of America. Many Years!
Unless you try to commune, highly unlikely.
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« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2011, 12:47:58 PM »

Hello, everybody!
This is my first post, and I'm inquiring into Holy Orthodoxy, and I am seriously considering making the near by Orthodox church my parish. How would a Catholic, who isn't too sure if he wants to renounce Rome and become Orthodox be received by the parish and priest (I have previously attended the church for vespers and one divine liturgy and know the priest and his wife)? Would they ask me to either become Orthodox or leave? If this helps, the parish is under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church of America. Many Years!
Every priest I have met would not be pushy about it. We had a (non-serving) Roman Catholic priest attend our parish for 2 years before he converted and countless other non-Orthodox attend without converting for a while. I attended services for over a year before I was received. The parish priest probably wouldn't want you to become Orthodox right away anyway, but would rather you immerse yourself in the life of the Church and the parish community. Orthodoxy is something we live and breath not something we do only when we go to the divine services. Smiley I'm willing to bet that this priest will encourage you to take it slow and make sure that you are certain that you want to make such a big decision.

Just attend the services and pray with the people asking for the Lord to help you. Smiley That's the best advice I can recommend. And welcome!

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2011, 01:37:52 PM »

The thing about sitting on a fence is that, after awhile, it becomes very uncomfortable.
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« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2011, 02:32:23 PM »

Hello, everybody!
This is my first post, and I'm inquiring into Holy Orthodoxy, and I am seriously considering making the near by Orthodox church my parish. How would a Catholic, who isn't too sure if he wants to renounce Rome and become Orthodox be received by the parish and priest (I have previously attended the church for vespers and one divine liturgy and know the priest and his wife)? Would they ask me to either become Orthodox or leave? If this helps, the parish is under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church of America. Many Years!

At the risk of incurring the wrath of others here  Grin, there *may* be another alternative for you, if you're unwilling to "renounce Rome"--that would be to participate at an Eastern Catholic parish, if there's one not too far from you.  You would maintain full communion with Rome, and, at least if it's a Byzantine (Ruthenian), or Ukrainian Catholic parish, be able to participate in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  You could also immerse yourself to whatever extent you wish in Eastern Christian spirituality.  By the way, it isn't *just* the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics who use the DL of St. John.

Barring that, in answer to your question, unless you try to commune while still Catholic, you would hopefully be warmly welcomed to any and all services.  That, of course, depends very much upon the make-up of the congregation, and on the priest.

By the way, if you attend the Orthodox church for Divine Liturgy and do not attend a Catholic Mass on any given weekend, you will not have fulfilled your obligation to attend Mass.  You could, of course, attend a Vigil Mass on Saturday if your church has one, and then the DL at the Orthodox church on Sunday.  That would take care of your obligation.

By the way...welcome to the fray  Wink Cheesy Grin!

In Christ,
JM
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« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2011, 02:40:18 PM »



By the way, if you attend the Orthodox church for Divine Liturgy and do not attend a Catholic Mass on any given weekend, you will not have fulfilled your obligation to attend Mass.  You could, of course, attend a Vigil Mass on Saturday if your church has one, and then the DL at the Orthodox church on Sunday.  That would take care of your obligation.

In Christ,
JM

I don't mean to sound harsh but you need to be very careful with this.  If it is for the good of the soul's salvation, it is indeed permissible to attend an Orthodox liturgy in lieu of a Roman rite one or an eastern Catholic one. 

It is better if that is to become a habit that a spiritual father or bishop give permission but if there is no one to whom the person may turn at the time, they are not sinning in any formal way if they attend an Orthodox liturgy for the salvation of their souls, in lieu of any other Catholic liturgy.

Catholics push this particular issue well beyond what their Church commands and expects.

There are Catholic faithful in full time residence in Orthodox parishes, communing and receiving sacraments for the good of their souls with the blessing of pastors and bishops.  It is not discussed too much because of the screeching that ensues on both sides of the aisle.

M.
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« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2011, 02:46:19 PM »



By the way, if you attend the Orthodox church for Divine Liturgy and do not attend a Catholic Mass on any given weekend, you will not have fulfilled your obligation to attend Mass.  You could, of course, attend a Vigil Mass on Saturday if your church has one, and then the DL at the Orthodox church on Sunday.  That would take care of your obligation.

In Christ,
JM

I don't mean to sound harsh but you need to be very careful with this.  If it is for the good of the soul's salvation, it is indeed permissible to attend an Orthodox liturgy in lieu of a Roman rite one or an eastern Catholic one.  

It is better if that is to become a habit that a spiritual father or bishop give permission but if there is no one to whom the person may turn at the time, they are not sinning in any formal way if they attend an Orthodox liturgy for the salvation of their souls, in lieu of any other Catholic liturgy.

Catholics push this particular issue well beyond what their Church commands and expects.

There are Catholic faithful in full time residence in Orthodox parishes, communing and receiving sacraments for the good of their souls with the blessing of pastors and bishops.  It is not discussed too much because of the screeching that ensues on both sides of the aisle.

M.

Not harsh at all!  I, too, am still learning and very much open to correction.  Not afraid to admit I'm wrong when I am, or to appreciate the value of suggestions and corrections made in love.  Given my own experience, I really should have known that   Embarrassed Grin.  Thank you Wink Wink!

« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 02:47:59 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2011, 02:48:13 PM »

Hello, everybody!
This is my first post, and I'm inquiring into Holy Orthodoxy, and I am seriously considering making the near by Orthodox church my parish. How would a Catholic, who isn't too sure if he wants to renounce Rome and become Orthodox be received by the parish and priest (I have previously attended the church for vespers and one divine liturgy and know the priest and his wife)? Would they ask me to either become Orthodox or leave? If this helps, the parish is under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church of America. Many Years!

Welcome to the forum.  First, you wouldn't be renouncing Rome.  You'll just confess what Rome's proper place is in the Church, namely that of primus inter pares without jurisdiction over any other Bishop or Patriarch.  As far as being asked to leave, first you have to be a member.  Second, the church welcomes all (after all the church is catholic, not Catholic  Wink) and if you want to attend and pray for years before entering or attend and pray and go back to the Catholic Church, that's fine.  I know many people in my own parish who attend only because their spouse comes; they have no interest in becoming Orthodox themselves.  So, don't worry about it.

At the risk of incurring the wrath of others here  Grin, there *may* be another alternative for you, if you're unwilling to "renounce Rome"--that would be to participate at an Eastern Catholic parish, if there's one not too far from you.  You would maintain full communion with Rome, and, at least if it's a Byzantine (Ruthenian), or Ukrainian Catholic parish, be able to participate in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  You could also immerse yourself to whatever extent you wish in Eastern Christian spirituality.  By the way, it isn't *just* the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics who use the DL of St. John.

Yes, you could do this, but from what I understand, it is not easy to simply attend an Eastern Rite Catholic Church from going to a Latin Rite church. Unless I'm mistaken, there's a process you have to undergo first. It's not as simple as saying "Hey I'm going to an Eastern Rite Catholic church. Bye."  I'm not sure what the process is exactly. You'll have to inquire.

Another thing to consider and this may be something that J Michael or any other Eastern Rite Catholic may acknowledge or ignore is that Eastern Rite Catholics are, in general, regarded as Catholics of a lower status.  Throughout the 20th century, there have been many attempts both here in the new world and in the old world, particularly Ukraine, to Latinize the Eastern Catholics.  Things such as introducing Western ceremonies and practices (Eucharisitc adoration is NOT part of the Eastern Rite, at least there is no parading it around and such) have been introduced, often forcefully, into Eastern Catholic parishes.  Priests, though allowed to be married in the Orthodox Church, no questions asked, who are married are often looked down upon with disdain.  These are just some of the issues that you may encounter if you decide to go the Eastern Catholic route. Plus, are there any Eastern Catholic parishes in your neighborhood?  

Good luck with your inquiries.  The best thing for you to do now besides pray and go to services is to develop a good spiritual relationship with the priest who can help guide you.
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« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2011, 02:49:28 PM »

Hello, everybody!
This is my first post, and I'm inquiring into Holy Orthodoxy, and I am seriously considering making the near by Orthodox church my parish. How would a Catholic, who isn't too sure if he wants to renounce Rome and become Orthodox be received by the parish and priest (I have previously attended the church for vespers and one divine liturgy and know the priest and his wife)? Would they ask me to either become Orthodox or leave? If this helps, the parish is under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church of America. Many Years!

At the risk of incurring the wrath of others here  Grin, there *may* be another alternative for you, if you're unwilling to "renounce Rome"--that would be to participate at an Eastern Catholic parish, if there's one not too far from you.  You would maintain full communion with Rome, and, at least if it's a Byzantine (Ruthenian), or Ukrainian Catholic parish, be able to participate in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  You could also immerse yourself to whatever extent you wish in Eastern Christian spirituality.  By the way, it isn't *just* the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics who use the DL of St. John.

Barring that, in answer to your question, unless you try to commune while still Catholic, you would hopefully be warmly welcomed to any and all services.  That, of course, depends very much upon the make-up of the congregation, and on the priest.

By the way, if you attend the Orthodox church for Divine Liturgy and do not attend a Catholic Mass on any given weekend, you will not have fulfilled your obligation to attend Mass.  You could, of course, attend a Vigil Mass on Saturday if your church has one, and then the DL at the Orthodox church on Sunday.  That would take care of your obligation.
throwing the obligatory lamb on the fire, as it were.
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« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2011, 02:54:11 PM »

Hello, everybody!
This is my first post, and I'm inquiring into Holy Orthodoxy, and I am seriously considering making the near by Orthodox church my parish. How would a Catholic, who isn't too sure if he wants to renounce Rome and become Orthodox be received by the parish and priest (I have previously attended the church for vespers and one divine liturgy and know the priest and his wife)? Would they ask me to either become Orthodox or leave? If this helps, the parish is under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church of America. Many Years!

Welcome to the forum.  First, you wouldn't be renouncing Rome.  You'll just confess what Rome's proper place is in the Church, namely that of primus inter pares without jurisdiction over any other Bishop or Patriarch.  As far as being asked to leave, first you have to be a member.  Second, the church welcomes all (after all the church is catholic, not Catholic  Wink) and if you want to attend and pray for years before entering or attend and pray and go back to the Catholic Church, that's fine.  I know many people in my own parish who attend only because their spouse comes; they have no interest in becoming Orthodox themselves.  So, don't worry about it.

At the risk of incurring the wrath of others here  Grin, there *may* be another alternative for you, if you're unwilling to "renounce Rome"--that would be to participate at an Eastern Catholic parish, if there's one not too far from you.  You would maintain full communion with Rome, and, at least if it's a Byzantine (Ruthenian), or Ukrainian Catholic parish, be able to participate in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  You could also immerse yourself to whatever extent you wish in Eastern Christian spirituality.  By the way, it isn't *just* the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics who use the DL of St. John.

Yes, you could do this, but from what I understand, it is not easy to simply attend an Eastern Rite Catholic Church from going to a Latin Rite church. Unless I'm mistaken, there's a process you have to undergo first. It's not as simple as saying "Hey I'm going to an Eastern Rite Catholic church. Bye."  I'm not sure what the process is exactly. You'll have to inquire.
One can just go to parishes of the sui juris churches so called:it doesn't get harry until you want to get married, baptize your kid/have him confirmed, let your kids commune (Latin rite are not allowed), and things of that nature.  As for "fulfilling the obligation," there's no problem there.

Another thing to consider and this may be something that J Michael or any other Eastern Rite Catholic may acknowledge or ignore is that Eastern Rite Catholics are, in general, regarded as Catholics of a lower status.  Throughout the 20th century, there have been many attempts both here in the new world and in the old world, particularly Ukraine, to Latinize the Eastern Catholics.  Things such as introducing Western ceremonies and practices (Eucharisitc adoration is NOT part of the Eastern Rite, at least there is no parading it around and such) have been introduced, often forcefully, into Eastern Catholic parishes.  Priests, though allowed to be married in the Orthodox Church, no questions asked, who are married are often looked down upon with disdain.  These are just some of the issues that you may encounter if you decide to go the Eastern Catholic route. Plus, are there any Eastern Catholic parishes in your neighborhood?  
All true.
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« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2011, 02:56:30 PM »



By the way, if you attend the Orthodox church for Divine Liturgy and do not attend a Catholic Mass on any given weekend, you will not have fulfilled your obligation to attend Mass.  You could, of course, attend a Vigil Mass on Saturday if your church has one, and then the DL at the Orthodox church on Sunday.  That would take care of your obligation.

In Christ,
JM

I don't mean to sound harsh but you need to be very careful with this.  If it is for the good of the soul's salvation, it is indeed permissible to attend an Orthodox liturgy in lieu of a Roman rite one or an eastern Catholic one.  

It is better if that is to become a habit that a spiritual father or bishop give permission but if there is no one to whom the person may turn at the time, they are not sinning in any formal way if they attend an Orthodox liturgy for the salvation of their souls, in lieu of any other Catholic liturgy.

Catholics push this particular issue well beyond what their Church commands and expects.

There are Catholic faithful in full time residence in Orthodox parishes, communing and receiving sacraments for the good of their souls with the blessing of pastors and bishops.  It is not discussed too much because of the screeching that ensues on both sides of the aisle.

M.

Not harsh at all!  I, too, am still learning and very much open to correction.  Not afraid to admit I'm wrong when I am, or to appreciate the value of suggestions and corrections made in love.  Given my own experience, I really should have known that   Embarrassed Grin.  Thank you Wink Wink!



whew...thanks!!
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« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2011, 03:00:02 PM »


Yes, you could do this, but from what I understand, it is not easy to simply attend an Eastern Rite Catholic Church from going to a Latin Rite church. Unless I'm mistaken, there's a process you have to undergo first. It's not as simple as saying "Hey I'm going to an Eastern Rite Catholic church. Bye."  I'm not sure what the process is exactly. You'll have to inquire.

It is not that difficult.  When I transferred, I had been attending an eastern Catholic parish for about a year.  I wrote the letters with recommendation from an eastern Catholic priest, one letter to my Roman rite bishop and one letter to my future eastern Catholic metropolitan and within six weeks the canonical transfer was complete.

What I asked was to be transferred for the good and the salvation of my soul.  I also noted that I loved the Roman rite and was running away from nothing.

It was that simple...and that profound.

Mary
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« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2011, 03:01:02 PM »



By the way, if you attend the Orthodox church for Divine Liturgy and do not attend a Catholic Mass on any given weekend, you will not have fulfilled your obligation to attend Mass.  You could, of course, attend a Vigil Mass on Saturday if your church has one, and then the DL at the Orthodox church on Sunday.  That would take care of your obligation.

In Christ,
JM

I don't mean to sound harsh but you need to be very careful with this.  If it is for the good of the soul's salvation, it is indeed permissible to attend an Orthodox liturgy in lieu of a Roman rite one or an eastern Catholic one. 

It is better if that is to become a habit that a spiritual father or bishop give permission but if there is no one to whom the person may turn at the time, they are not sinning in any formal way if they attend an Orthodox liturgy for the salvation of their souls, in lieu of any other Catholic liturgy.

Catholics push this particular issue well beyond what their Church commands and expects.

There are Catholic faithful in full time residence in Orthodox parishes,
Of course there are:you can't be in full time residence in an Orthodox parish if you aren't in communion with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Churc.

As for the followers of the Vatican:
communing and receiving sacraments for the good of their souls with the blessing of pastors and bishops.  It is not discussed too much because of the screeching that ensues on both sides of the aisle.
echoing the noise from hell on such damnable practices.  "...not unto judgement, nor unto condemnation..."
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« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2011, 03:08:32 PM »

Transferring one's official status, as Mary did, is a formal process, but as she indicated, not necessarily difficult.  Not every Catholic feels called to do that.  Every Catholic is free to worship in *any* Catholic church, Eastern or Western, and to receive Holy Communion under the usual conditions.  No formality, no "process"--you just go.  Like Mary said, however, things can get a little tricky when it comes to marriage or baptizing children.  Tricky, but by no means whatsoever, insurmountable.

As for Eastern Catholics being of a "lower" order than Western--that is *nothing* I have ever heard, much less experienced-except on the internet, almost exclusively on Orthodox boards.  I have never, ever encountered that attitude personally from any other Catholic in the real world.  And, if one is worried about his "status", either higher or lower, in the Church (Eastern or Western), I might suggest that one's priorities could be reexamined.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 03:22:38 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2011, 03:09:20 PM »

Priolo Gargallo

Welcome to the forum Smiley  You would almost certainly be welcome to attend, and try to discern where it is that is best for you. In the strange/rare situation in which a parish made you feel unwelcome... well, I wouldn't stick around such a parish anyway. For the most part people are welcoming. And I would guess that already knowing the priest and his wife will make it that much easier to integrate into the parish while you see what you are to do.


PS. Don't worry about the back and forth here, both ialmisry and elijahmaria have made a beloved hobby out of arguing with each other.  angel
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« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2011, 04:04:05 PM »

Would they ask me to either become Orthodox or leave?

Anyone is free to attend as long as they want to. I know one individual (not Roman, he was coming from an Evangelical background) who regularly attended an Orthodox (OCA) parish for 5 years (and sporadically for 5 years before that) before he finally converted. No one ever even thought about suggesting that he should go away while he was making up his mind.

As ialmisry mentioned, you can't receive communion unless you actually convert, but even then, they wouldn't tell you to leave. The priest will just tell you you can't come up and receive communion.
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« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2011, 04:24:58 PM »

I can say from my own experience, that before you wold seriously convert, you should attend orthodox services and any priest won't say you to leave. Before I've converted to Orthodoxy, I'd beem attemdimg the Liturgy and other services a few years. But to have Communion, I was going also to roman catholic church and byzantine catholic (to get know the Eastern Rite, which helepd me to choos Othodoxy: I noticed it's eastern, but something is missing there...). So sometiems it was really exhausting and in catholich church I was getting annoyed they don't do and say things properly. I was trying to keep a bit of Orthodox fasts. My orthodox priest also allowed me to participate in Orthodox pilgrimages by foot, I couldn't "only" participate in the Holy Sacraments. So, if you become more sure you want to convert, than just go to the priest (especially as you've mentioned, you know him) and explain the situation. Before youc an also talk with the parishoners
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« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2011, 04:39:37 PM »

Transferring one's official status, as Mary did, is a formal process, but as she indicated, not necessarily difficult.  Not every Catholic feels called to do that.  Every Catholic is free to worship in *any* Catholic church, Eastern or Western, and to receive Holy Communion under the usual conditions.  No formality, no "process"--you just go.  Like Mary said, however, things can get a little tricky when it comes to marriage or baptizing children.  Tricky, but by no means whatsoever, insurmountable.

As for Eastern Catholics being of a "lower" order than Western--that is *nothing* I have ever heard, much less experienced-except on the internet, almost exclusively on Orthodox boards.
 
Really?  'Cause just last year was it, the Vatican was hosting all its bishops from the Middle East and they complained that, after ten years of promising, they STILL don't have the "particular" law allowing them to ordain married men in their "diaspora."  This, on top of the Vatican's Italian Episcopal Conference telling the "sui juris" "Major Archbishop" in Romanian NOT to send married priests.  I guess the Nile is not just in Egypt....

Btw, I've notices that there are no missions/missionaries of the "sui juris" churches, except where there are Orthodox. I wonder why that is. Roll Eyes  Even in Albania, I don't think the Vatican has sent or allowed anyone from its Italo-Albanian church to come over to Tirana.

I have never, ever encountered that attitude personally from any other Catholic in the real world.  And, if one is worried about his "status", either higher or lower, in the Church (Eastern or Western), I might suggest that one's priorities could be reexamined.
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« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2011, 05:43:42 PM »

Hello, Priolo, and welcome.  Smiley If you are motivated to do so, go to an Orthodox service and see for yourself. Do some soul-searching, be honest to yourself and don't be afraid to ask the priest or the parish staff about whatever you need to know. I too was raised Roman Catholic but have attended an Orthodox parish for a while. I hope you are happy with what you find.  angel
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« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2011, 11:02:49 PM »

As for Eastern Catholics being of a "lower" order than Western--that is *nothing* I have ever heard, much less experienced-except on the internet, almost exclusively on Orthodox boards.  I have never, ever encountered that attitude personally from any other Catholic in the real world.  And, if one is worried about his "status", either higher or lower, in the Church (Eastern or Western), I might suggest that one's priorities could be reexamined.

Oh, so a friendly "buck up" to the Eastern Catholics, particularly Ukrainians, who underwent this persecution at the hands of the Latins in the early and mid 20th century really would have made everything alright. 
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« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2012, 03:01:21 PM »

As for Eastern Catholics being of a "lower" order than Western--that is *nothing* I have ever heard, much less experienced-except on the internet, almost exclusively on Orthodox boards.  I have never, ever encountered that attitude personally from any other Catholic in the real world.  And, if one is worried about his "status", either higher or lower, in the Church (Eastern or Western), I might suggest that one's priorities could be reexamined.

Oh, so a friendly "buck up" to the Eastern Catholics, particularly Ukrainians, who underwent this persecution at the hands of the Latins in the early and mid 20th century really would have made everything alright. 

Did you actually read what I wrote?  Here it is again, with emphases included this time, just so you'll know: "As for Eastern Catholics being of a "lower" order than Western--that is *nothing* I have ever heard, much less experienced-except on the internet, almost exclusively on Orthodox boards.  *I* have never, ever encountered that attitude *personally* from any other Catholic in the real world."

Hope that's clear enough.  Others may have different experiences.  I've related that which I have *not* experienced.

As for who persecuted whom and when, do we really need to get into that, yet again?  I'd imagine there isn't much of that dead horse left to beat anymore.  But, hey, feel free if it does something for you.  From my little knowledge of history it seems to me that where Churches or churches have shared territory, all parties have been guilty of horrendous, un-Christian behavior.  Can we not at least try to move on from all the hate, blame, recrimination piled upon recrimination, and more hate and blame just a little bit?
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« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2012, 02:16:17 PM »

As for Eastern Catholics being of a "lower" order than Western--that is *nothing* I have ever heard, much less experienced-except on the internet, almost exclusively on Orthodox boards.  I have never, ever encountered that attitude personally from any other Catholic in the real world.  And, if one is worried about his "status", either higher or lower, in the Church (Eastern or Western), I might suggest that one's priorities could be reexamined.

Oh, so a friendly "buck up" to the Eastern Catholics, particularly Ukrainians, who underwent this persecution at the hands of the Latins in the early and mid 20th century really would have made everything alright.  

Did you actually read what I wrote?  Here it is again, with emphases included this time, just so you'll know: "As for Eastern Catholics being of a "lower" order than Western--that is *nothing* I have ever heard, much less experienced-except on the internet, almost exclusively on Orthodox boards.  *I* have never, ever encountered that attitude *personally* from any other Catholic in the real world."

Hope that's clear enough.  Others may have different experiences.  I've related that which I have *not* experienced.

As for who persecuted whom and when, do we really need to get into that, yet again?  I'd imagine there isn't much of that dead horse left to beat anymore.  But, hey, feel free if it does something for you.  From my little knowledge of history it seems to me that where Churches or churches have shared territory, all parties have been guilty of horrendous, un-Christian behavior.  Can we not at least try to move on from all the hate, blame, recrimination piled upon recrimination, and more hate and blame just a little bit?
I met a convert from the Eastern Catholic Church to Orthodoxy and he also shared the fact that the Eastern Catholics are treated with disdain. It actually led him to question what he believe and he left for Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2012, 02:36:20 PM »

As for Eastern Catholics being of a "lower" order than Western--that is *nothing* I have ever heard, much less experienced-except on the internet, almost exclusively on Orthodox boards.  I have never, ever encountered that attitude personally from any other Catholic in the real world.  And, if one is worried about his "status", either higher or lower, in the Church (Eastern or Western), I might suggest that one's priorities could be reexamined.

I did.  And not from where you thought it would come.  Traditionalist/Latin Mass going Catholics had little to no problem (the only "problem" was, "Oh, no, we'd hate to not see you on Sundays!") when I started going to the local Ruthenian parish.

The rest of the Catholic world was either confused or downright angry because they didn't or (in some case) wouldn't understand why I would want to worship in an Eastern manner and how it was possible for me to do so and remain Catholic.  After all, why would I want to leave the beauty of the Novus Ordo and go where people sang all the time, stood up the whole time, and the priest had his back to the congregation?  How dare I question the Catholicity of the Mass?!

Now, me being me, this attitude had nothing to do with my later conversion to Holy Orthodoxy, but it's certainly not an online-only phenomenon. 
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« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2012, 02:54:29 PM »

As for Eastern Catholics being of a "lower" order than Western--that is *nothing* I have ever heard, much less experienced-except on the internet, almost exclusively on Orthodox boards.  I have never, ever encountered that attitude personally from any other Catholic in the real world.  And, if one is worried about his "status", either higher or lower, in the Church (Eastern or Western), I might suggest that one's priorities could be reexamined.

I did.  And not from where you thought it would come.  Traditionalist/Latin Mass going Catholics had little to no problem (the only "problem" was, "Oh, no, we'd hate to not see you on Sundays!") when I started going to the local Ruthenian parish.

The rest of the Catholic world was either confused or downright angry because they didn't or (in some case) wouldn't understand why I would want to worship in an Eastern manner and how it was possible for me to do so and remain Catholic.  After all, why would I want to leave the beauty of the Novus Ordo and go where people sang all the time, stood up the whole time, and the priest had his back to the congregation?  How dare I question the Catholicity of the Mass?!

Now, me being me, this attitude had nothing to do with my later conversion to Holy Orthodoxy, but it's certainly not an online-only phenomenon. 

Sorry to hear about the negativity you experienced--it couldn't have been pleasant at all!

I guess I must be fortunate, then.  Virtually everyone (Catholic or non-Catholic) I've ever personally spoken with about being Eastern Catholic has responded either with curiosity, interested in knowing more, or just plain positively.  The only negativity I can recall coming across has been....online.
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« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2012, 03:22:48 PM »

As for Eastern Catholics being of a "lower" order than Western--that is *nothing* I have ever heard, much less experienced-except on the internet, almost exclusively on Orthodox boards.  I have never, ever encountered that attitude personally from any other Catholic in the real world.  And, if one is worried about his "status", either higher or lower, in the Church (Eastern or Western), I might suggest that one's priorities could be reexamined.

I did.  And not from where you thought it would come.  Traditionalist/Latin Mass going Catholics had little to no problem (the only "problem" was, "Oh, no, we'd hate to not see you on Sundays!") when I started going to the local Ruthenian parish.

The rest of the Catholic world was either confused or downright angry because they didn't or (in some case) wouldn't understand why I would want to worship in an Eastern manner and how it was possible for me to do so and remain Catholic.  After all, why would I want to leave the beauty of the Novus Ordo and go where people sang all the time, stood up the whole time, and the priest had his back to the congregation?  How dare I question the Catholicity of the Mass?!

Now, me being me, this attitude had nothing to do with my later conversion to Holy Orthodoxy, but it's certainly not an online-only phenomenon. 

Sorry to hear about the negativity you experienced--it couldn't have been pleasant at all!

To be honest, I kind of reveled in it.  I've always been "on the fringe" in most aspects of my life and this apparently happened to be another one.

I guess I must be fortunate, then.  Virtually everyone (Catholic or non-Catholic) I've ever personally spoken with about being Eastern Catholic has responded either with curiosity, interested in knowing more, or just plain positively.  The only negativity I can recall coming across has been....online.
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« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2012, 03:37:17 PM »

As for Eastern Catholics being of a "lower" order than Western--that is *nothing* I have ever heard, much less experienced-except on the internet, almost exclusively on Orthodox boards.  I have never, ever encountered that attitude personally from any other Catholic in the real world.  And, if one is worried about his "status", either higher or lower, in the Church (Eastern or Western), I might suggest that one's priorities could be reexamined.

I did.  And not from where you thought it would come.  Traditionalist/Latin Mass going Catholics had little to no problem (the only "problem" was, "Oh, no, we'd hate to not see you on Sundays!") when I started going to the local Ruthenian parish.

The rest of the Catholic world was either confused or downright angry because they didn't or (in some case) wouldn't understand why I would want to worship in an Eastern manner and how it was possible for me to do so and remain Catholic.  After all, why would I want to leave the beauty of the Novus Ordo and go where people sang all the time, stood up the whole time, and the priest had his back to the congregation?  How dare I question the Catholicity of the Mass?!

Now, me being me, this attitude had nothing to do with my later conversion to Holy Orthodoxy, but it's certainly not an online-only phenomenon. 

Sorry to hear about the negativity you experienced--it couldn't have been pleasant at all!

To be honest, I kind of reveled in it.  I've always been "on the fringe" in most aspects of my life and this apparently happened to be another one.



Oh well...... Wink
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« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2012, 07:26:50 AM »

I'd say the average Latin Rite Catholic may not even know that there are Catholics of other rites or churches.  So I wouldn't say there is a " looking down" on them as something less than themselves.  Others simply do not recognize the difference between an Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox (not even recognizing they are Catholic at all). They assumethat they are one and the same.

 As to the OP, since you feel drawn to the east  and if there is an eastern rite church near you, I would go to both it and an Eastern Orthodox Church several times each and search your heart for which path you should follow.  I personally, have had nothing but good experiences at Eastern Catholic Churches.  Many are trying to reclaim lost traditions or move away from latinizations.  Others are not making as much of an effort to do so. Some of thoese traditions have been in place long enough that this is what the parishioners are familiar and comfortable with. But I think it would behoove you to experience both and see what your calling is.  Remember, there is no hurry. While attending an eastern Rite Church you will fulfill your Sunday obligation.  By all means go to the Eastern Orthodox Churches, as well and certainly reasearch both faiths and determine what best meets your spritua path.  Good luck.
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« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2012, 10:34:30 PM »

I guess I must be fortunate, then.  Virtually everyone (Catholic or non-Catholic) I've ever personally spoken with about being Eastern Catholic has responded either with curiosity, interested in knowing more, or just plain positively.  The only negativity I can recall coming across has been....online.

I think you owe me an apology, sir. I did read what you wrote and you took issue because my assessment was different from yours (God forbid!).  Since my own assessment has been corroborated by two other witnesses (though how widespread the phenomenon actually is, is an issue for another time), I'm not out in left field after all, am I?
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« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2012, 12:04:40 PM »

I guess I must be fortunate, then.  Virtually everyone (Catholic or non-Catholic) I've ever personally spoken with about being Eastern Catholic has responded either with curiosity, interested in knowing more, or just plain positively.  The only negativity I can recall coming across has been....online.

I think you owe me an apology, sir. I did read what you wrote and you took issue because my assessment was different from yours (God forbid!).  Since my own assessment has been corroborated by two other witnesses (though how widespread the phenomenon actually is, is an issue for another time), I'm not out in left field after all, am I?

I am, by far, *not* the world's greatest or clearest or most succinct writer.  However...I do know, as manifestly imperfect as I am, that how we word our thoughts is critical, especially in a 2-dimensional world like an internet discussion board.  The way you worded your post made it seem to me that you had clearly misunderstood my post.  For that, *I* will apologize, because, as often as not, if someone misunderstands me, it may well be my fault inasmuch as I may not have been entirely clear in what I wrote.  That's why I re-wrote it, with emphases.  Another reason someone may not understand me (or anyone else) is because they failed to actually to read, with care, what was written.  That's how it seemed to me in your case.  Guess I was mistaken.  Not the first or last time.

I have no problem with you having a different take on things than I.  The world would probably be in a far, far bigger mess than it already is if everyone agreed with me  Shocked Grin Shocked.  Part of the problem is that some people extrapolate from the experience of one or two or three people about something, coming to the conclusion that *their* experience is the current, general one when in fact it may well not be.  And, what happened 10 or 20 or 30 or 50 or 100 years ago is not necessarily what is happening today.  That is why I tried to be clear that my experience was just that--*my* experience.  I've been around quite long enough to know that others have different experiences.  I wanted others here to know that not everyone who is Eastern Catholic has faced negativity or hostility about that or has felt in some way inferior to Western Catholics.

Having said all of that (phew!)--if an apology is required, then I apologize.  (Just remind me, please, what I'm apologizing for  Wink.)

By the way, I know you're not out in left field.  I'm there, and can clearly see you waaayyyyy over there in right field  Grin Grin  Kiss!
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2012, 06:55:42 PM »

Slow down and breathe.  Take your time. If you don't know, just attend liturgy and soak it in.  No one at the Orthodox parish is going to be offended if you attend and even take years to make up your mind.  At my parish, we have had people that take 6 months.  Others take 10 years.  Others attend for decades with their spouse but don't ever convert.  Nobody thinks of it one way or the other.  If you want to get plugged in to the social aspect of the parish, volunteer to work for one of the food festivals.  Ethnics can sometimes be a little off putting, but if you help make cabbage rolls, then they open their hearts to you.
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2012, 07:06:41 PM »

Slow down and breathe.  Take your time. If you don't know, just attend liturgy and soak it in.  No one at the Orthodox parish is going to be offended if you attend and even take years to make up your mind.  At my parish, we have had people that take 6 months.  Others take 10 years.  Others attend for decades with their spouse but don't ever convert.  Nobody thinks of it one way or the other.  If you want to get plugged in to the social aspect of the parish, volunteer to work for one of the food festivals.  Ethnics can sometimes be a little off putting, but if you help make cabbage rolls, then they open their hearts to you.

This post was nearly 6 years in the making!  Smiley 
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2012, 07:26:09 PM »

Cabbage rolls ftw!
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2012, 07:57:33 PM »

I wouldn't worry so much.  The problem is that most Orthodox parishes are smaller in size than a roman catholic parish.  You can go all your life or for years at the RC parish and not know people and really there isn't much of a sense of hey we go to church together hi five dude kind of feeling.  At the smaller Eastern churches from the priest down to the newborn who was baptized yesterday everyone generally knows each other and even if you aren't close they'll still chat with you if they see you at the market during the week.

Do what you want, but the Roman Catholic priest isn't going to take too kindly if you approach him and say you're going to be going to the St. Pereskeva by the Lake Insert Eastern European country Church.  You'll get the sunday of obligation talk and so forth.  Why bother though, unless you mow the priest's grass or do work around the church in a larger RC parish he wouldn't know you if he ran over you on his bike.  Partially his fault partially the size of the parish is at blame.  Seriously, when my kid went to Catholic school and we were Greek Catholic the priest bugged about going to first communion retreats, so I went to one and he wasn't even there.  You figure that'd be something he could attend, over 100 kids from the parish in attendance and the lady running it said "the bread and wine are symbols of Christ's body and blood."  It took everything for me at that point in my life (because I was Catholic) not to say, the Lutheran and Anglican church are a block away, I thought I was at the Roman Catholic Church."
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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2012, 05:34:07 AM »

  Seriously, when my kid went to Catholic school and we were Greek Catholic the priest bugged about going to first communion retreats, so I went to one and he wasn't even there.  You figure that'd be something he could attend, over 100 kids from the parish in attendance and the lady running it said "the bread and wine are symbols of Christ's body and blood."  It took everything for me at that point in my life (because I was Catholic) not to say, the Lutheran and Anglican church are a block away, I thought I was at the Roman Catholic Church."

You should have said something.  In places where DRE's colored outside the doctrinal lines with the children, I've seen mothers move in and tell priest and DRE that either the mothers be allowed to do the teaching or the children would not be a'comin'...That worked.
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« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2012, 10:06:00 AM »

the lady running it said "the bread and wine are symbols of Christ's body and blood."  It took everything for me at that point in my life (because I was Catholic) not to say, the Lutheran and Anglican church are a block away, I thought I was at the Roman Catholic Church."

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