|
Punch
|
 |
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2012, 07:39:41 PM » |
|
No shock at all. If the population of men and women is relatively equal, and men have multiple wives, then it stands to reason that there would be a number of back door boys along the way.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
biro
Ursus maritimus
Site Supporter
Stratopedarches
 Offline
Faith: Raised Roman Catholic; now attend GOA
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 9,592
Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
|
|
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2012, 08:24:17 PM » |
|
If we make polygamy legal, one guy will have many wives, leaving fewer wives for the next person. There will be a serious population imbalance in a hurry. This is one reason that polygamy isn't done in many countries. In the ones that do, they are already starting to feel the crunch. Make all the punchlines you want, but the two-person couple exists for a reason.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
phthalyl.podomatic.com
the-cornet.blogspot.com
|
|
|
|
vamrat
|
|
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2012, 08:28:41 PM » |
|
Sodomites? I think calling them human brings created in the image of God is more appropriate. Just my opinion.
He's the one who blew up a whole city that gave them their name... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
It is an education process for me as I learn about the psychology of spiritual apostasy. And others get the benefit of perhaps hearing righteousness for the first time.
Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.
|
|
|
biro
Ursus maritimus
Site Supporter
Stratopedarches
Offline
Faith: Raised Roman Catholic; now attend GOA
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 9,592
Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
|
|
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2012, 08:36:01 PM » |
|
And the one who said in Isaiah that they were destroyed for their inhospitality.
He didn't get every gay person in the world. Funny how they're still here.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
phthalyl.podomatic.com
the-cornet.blogspot.com
|
|
|
|
vamrat
|
|
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2012, 09:19:53 PM » |
|
And the one who said in Isaiah that they were destroyed for their inhospitality.
He didn't get every gay person in the world. Funny how they're still here.
Nope, just the ones threatening to sodomize Angels. Not a good idea. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
It is an education process for me as I learn about the psychology of spiritual apostasy. And others get the benefit of perhaps hearing righteousness for the first time.
Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.
|
|
|
|
genesisone
|
|
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2012, 09:36:42 PM » |
|
If we make polygamy legal, one guy will have many wives, leaving fewer wives for the next person. There will be a serious population imbalance in a hurry. This is one reason that polygamy isn't done in many countries. In the ones that do, they are already starting to feel the crunch. Make all the punchlines you want, but the two-person couple exists for a reason.
Won't women also have the right to have multiple husbands? Undoubtedly there are some women (and men) out there who might find that acceptable. If I find any, I'll report on it  . |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Marc1152
Warned
Hoplitarches
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 8,926
Let There Be Light
|
|
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2012, 09:59:42 PM » |
|
If we make polygamy legal, one guy will have many wives, leaving fewer wives for the next person. There will be a serious population imbalance in a hurry. This is one reason that polygamy isn't done in many countries. In the ones that do, they are already starting to feel the crunch. Make all the punchlines you want, but the two-person couple exists for a reason.
Won't women also have the right to have multiple husbands? Undoubtedly there are some women (and men) out there who might find that acceptable. If I find any, I'll report on it . I am the only male in an office of 10 women. If anyone thinks polygamy is a good idea they should spend a week with me. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
\"Why were so many Civil War battles fought in National Parks? \"
|
|
|
|
Νεκτάριος
|
|
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2012, 12:21:29 AM » |
|
If we make polygamy legal, one guy will have many wives, leaving fewer wives for the next person. There will be a serious population imbalance in a hurry. This is one reason that polygamy isn't done in many countries. In the ones that do, they are already starting to feel the crunch. Make all the punchlines you want, but the two-person couple exists for a reason. Even when polygamy has been socially acceptable, it has never been common except among the richest of the rich. It is incredibly expensive to support extra wives and an exponential number of children. There are strong anthropological reasons why marriage ended up the way it has in almost every society. Then again there are isolated cases of polyandry in Tibetan culture  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Jason.Wike
|
|
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2012, 12:26:48 AM » |
|
Is that not surprising?
Several people have speculated that once gay marriage is legal, then polygamy will be legalized, and Salt Lake City will rejoice that their polygamous religious ancestors like Joseph Smith have been vindicated.
Lord have mercy on us and save us.
Um... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
If you give up pride of place for yourself to God, you will find your soul and eternity.. if you insist on putting yourself before God you will loose yourself eternally.
|
|
|
|
Punch
|
|
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2012, 01:35:53 PM » |
|
If we make polygamy legal, one guy will have many wives, leaving fewer wives for the next person. There will be a serious population imbalance in a hurry. This is one reason that polygamy isn't done in many countries. In the ones that do, they are already starting to feel the crunch. Make all the punchlines you want, but the two-person couple exists for a reason.
Won't women also have the right to have multiple husbands? Undoubtedly there are some women (and men) out there who might find that acceptable. If I find any, I'll report on it . I am the only male in an office of 10 women. If anyone thinks polygamy is a good idea they should spend a week with me. Yes, those that long for Polygamy have not fully understood what a woman needs after you are done with your three minutes of fun. I have been married for 30 years to the same woman, and it is a full time job keeping just that one wife happy (or at best, not totally unhappy). And to make matters worse, I married a VERY good woman who is not nearly as high maintenance as others that I have known. The only way Polygamy works is if women are reduced to property status, and can be beaten or disposed of when they become too much to handle. Obviously, this has no place in a Christian society. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Zenovia
Sr. Member
Offline
Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 777
|
|
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2012, 11:07:45 PM » |
|
If we make polygamy legal, one guy will have many wives, leaving fewer wives for the next person. There will be a serious population imbalance in a hurry. This is one reason that polygamy isn't done in many countries. In the ones that do, they are already starting to feel the crunch. Make all the punchlines you want, but the two-person couple exists for a reason.
Won't women also have the right to have multiple husbands? Undoubtedly there are some women (and men) out there who might find that acceptable. If I find any, I'll report on it . I am the only male in an office of 10 women. If anyone thinks polygamy is a good idea they should spend a week with me. Bravo to you! Finally someone that knows the implications of having more than one wife. For heaven's sake, two women can't even share a kitchen never-the-less a husband.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
ialmisry
|
|
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2012, 11:48:48 PM » |
|
If we make polygamy legal, one guy will have many wives, leaving fewer wives for the next person. There will be a serious population imbalance in a hurry. This is one reason that polygamy isn't done in many countries. In the ones that do, they are already starting to feel the crunch. Make all the punchlines you want, but the two-person couple exists for a reason.
Won't women also have the right to have multiple husbands? Undoubtedly there are some women (and men) out there who might find that acceptable. If I find any, I'll report on it . I am the only male in an office of 10 women. If anyone thinks polygamy is a good idea they should spend a week with me. Bravo to you! Finally someone that knows the implications of having more than one wife. For heaven's sake, two women can't even share a kitchen never-the-less a husband. for what it is worth, muslim culture and literature abounds with the lessons of polygamy not working. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
|
|
|
|
ialmisry
|
|
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2012, 11:51:06 PM » |
|
If we make polygamy legal, one guy will have many wives, leaving fewer wives for the next person. There will be a serious population imbalance in a hurry. This is one reason that polygamy isn't done in many countries. In the ones that do, they are already starting to feel the crunch. Make all the punchlines you want, but the two-person couple exists for a reason.
the male-female couple exists for the same reason. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
|
|
|
|
lubeltri
|
|
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2012, 01:33:44 AM » |
|
I'm from Atlanta, and I would have to say that I'd be very surprised if any other city in America today more closely resembles Sodom and Gomorrah than the ATL.
Selam
Oh brother...  Yes, it's indeed sad to see what that wonderful city has become. It was great when I was growing up there, but after the Olympics came everything went down hill very rapidly, just as I predicted. It's a completely different city now, and its former laid back Southern charm has been negated by the influx of crass yankees, and yes, the proliferation of sodomites. (Since the title of this thread is blatantly politically incorrect, I feel no need to hold back here. ) Selam It seems you're right. I have a number of actively homosexual friends in Boston, and they complain about how "conservative" Boston is, and they rave about Atlanta, considering it one of the great places for gays; I know several who have actually moved to there from here. It is true that Massachusetts, the state with the lowest divorce rate, is pretty uptight in general. Bathhouses are not allowed, and porn and sex shops are pretty thin on the ground. The gays have to go all the way out to the tip of Cape Cod at Provincetown in order to escape the "oppressive" atmosphere of Puritan Boston. Not that I am complaining, I'm quite happy to avoid Provincetown on summer weekends. It's quite normal and pleasant other times of the year. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Gebre Menfes Kidus
|
|
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2012, 01:37:02 AM » |
|
If we make polygamy legal, one guy will have many wives, leaving fewer wives for the next person. There will be a serious population imbalance in a hurry. This is one reason that polygamy isn't done in many countries. In the ones that do, they are already starting to feel the crunch. Make all the punchlines you want, but the two-person couple exists for a reason.
I actually heard a Muslim Imam argue the very opposite. He said that women outnumber men, and therefore if you don't allow polygamy then it will contribute to adultery since women will find a way to be with a man in order to satisfy their biological urges. He made some compelling arguments that are difficult to argue with from a purely logical standpoint. However, our Faith is not predicated upon pure logic, which is what separates us from Muslims and others. Our Faith is not illogical, but it is not bound by the constraints of mortal reasoning. Muslims also believe that abortion is OK before "quickening." There is a logic to this, but it still contradicts apostolic Teaching. Let us be thankful for our Orthodox Faith, and let us argue for it the best we can. But let us also realize that what "makes the most sense" is not necessarily what is right and True. Selam |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 01:38:01 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
|
Logged
|
"Salvation is free, but not easy. It is completely dependent upon the grace of God, and yet we must work it out with fear and trembling. It is given to all, but only a few find it. We are saved only by His Cross, and yet not without taking up our own." +GMK+
|
|
|
Luckster
Double Dipper
Member
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 134
|
|
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2012, 02:44:22 AM » |
|
I had a professor who translated the Dead Sea Scrolls and noted Biblical scholar. He used to say, "Polygamy is Biblical principle and we should advocate for it. Would someone mind explaining this to my wife?"
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
orthonorm
|
|
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2012, 03:51:54 AM » |
|
This was answered in an scintillating interview conducted by yours truly.
I don't have to look at the list.
It is Memphis, TN.
You really have no idea.
Schnuck's break room is the hot pocket of all gay activity there.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
|
|
|
Quinault
|
|
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2012, 04:08:31 AM » |
|
I really thought Portland OR would have ranked higher. I am not surprised that Seattle is in the top 5 at all. We have a "gay district," gay pride parades and naked bicycle races!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
JamesRottnek
Taxiarches
Offline
Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 4,539
I am Bibleman
|
|
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2012, 05:05:49 AM » |
|
If we make polygamy legal, one guy will have many wives, leaving fewer wives for the next person. There will be a serious population imbalance in a hurry. This is one reason that polygamy isn't done in many countries. In the ones that do, they are already starting to feel the crunch. Make all the punchlines you want, but the two-person couple exists for a reason.
I actually heard a Muslim Imam argue the very opposite. He said that women outnumber men, and therefore if you don't allow polygamy then it will contribute to adultery since women will find a way to be with a man in order to satisfy their biological urges. He made some compelling arguments that are difficult to argue with from a purely logical standpoint. However, our Faith is not predicated upon pure logic, which is what separates us from Muslims and others. Our Faith is not illogical, but it is not bound by the constraints of mortal reasoning. Muslims also believe that abortion is OK before "quickening." There is a logic to this, but it still contradicts apostolic Teaching. Let us be thankful for our Orthodox Faith, and let us argue for it the best we can. But let us also realize that what "makes the most sense" is not necessarily what is right and True. Selam Not all Muslims believe that abortion is acceptable until a particular point. For instance, I can - off the top of my head - think of Shaykh Dr. Khaled Abou El Fadl, who is generally more liberal than most Muslims (he's described himself as a Mu'tazilah, for those to whom that means anything), but yet has written a fatwa in which he says he can see no logical basis upon which to determine when a soul would be joined to the unborn child - if it isn't joined at conception - and consequently does not accept abortion as legitimate at any point in a pregnancy. He is far from alone on this. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
|
|
|
JamesRottnek
Taxiarches
Offline
Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 4,539
I am Bibleman
|
|
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2012, 05:05:49 AM » |
|
Arizona is so boring; we never manage to be on any interesting lists...
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
|
|
|
Marc1152
Warned
Hoplitarches
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 8,926
Let There Be Light
|
|
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2012, 09:26:13 AM » |
|
I'm from Atlanta, and I would have to say that I'd be very surprised if any other city in America today more closely resembles Sodom and Gomorrah than the ATL.
Selam
Oh brother... Yes, it's indeed sad to see what that wonderful city has become. It was great when I was growing up there, but after the Olympics came everything went down hill very rapidly, just as I predicted. It's a completely different city now, and its former laid back Southern charm has been negated by the influx of crass yankees, and yes, the proliferation of sodomites. (Since the title of this thread is blatantly politically incorrect, I feel no need to hold back here. ) Selam It seems you're right. I have a number of actively homosexual friends in Boston, and they complain about how "conservative" Boston is, and they rave about Atlanta, considering it one of the great places for gays; I know several who have actually moved to there from here. It is true that Massachusetts, the state with the lowest divorce rate, is pretty uptight in general. Bathhouses are not allowed, and porn and sex shops are pretty thin on the ground. The gays have to go all the way out to the tip of Cape Cod at Provincetown in order to escape the "oppressive" atmosphere of Puritan Boston. Not that I am complaining, I'm quite happy to avoid Provincetown on summer weekends. It's quite normal and pleasant other times of the year. I wish Bath Houses were not sexualized. In Japan going to the neighborhood Bathhouse to wash up for the day and then have a nice hot soak and chat up your friends is a big part of their culture. I wish we had that here. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
\"Why were so many Civil War battles fought in National Parks? \"
|
|
|
|
Papist
|
|
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2012, 09:32:10 AM » |
|
They totally missed Santa Fe, NM. "Santa Fe praised by gay magazine Santa Fe makes a lot of Top 10 lists when it comes to travel and tourism. Now, the state's capital city has a new distinction. According to a travel piece published in The Advocate, a national gay and lesbian magazine, Santa Fe is the second "gayest" city in America..." Full article: http://www.santafenewmexican.com/local%20news/Santa-Fe-praised-by-gay-magazine |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
|
|
|
|
Punch
|
|
« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2012, 10:05:52 AM » |
|
I'm from Atlanta, and I would have to say that I'd be very surprised if any other city in America today more closely resembles Sodom and Gomorrah than the ATL.
Selam
Oh brother... Yes, it's indeed sad to see what that wonderful city has become. It was great when I was growing up there, but after the Olympics came everything went down hill very rapidly, just as I predicted. It's a completely different city now, and its former laid back Southern charm has been negated by the influx of crass yankees, and yes, the proliferation of sodomites. (Since the title of this thread is blatantly politically incorrect, I feel no need to hold back here. ) Selam It seems you're right. I have a number of actively homosexual friends in Boston, and they complain about how "conservative" Boston is, and they rave about Atlanta, considering it one of the great places for gays; I know several who have actually moved to there from here. It is true that Massachusetts, the state with the lowest divorce rate, is pretty uptight in general. Bathhouses are not allowed, and porn and sex shops are pretty thin on the ground. The gays have to go all the way out to the tip of Cape Cod at Provincetown in order to escape the "oppressive" atmosphere of Puritan Boston. Not that I am complaining, I'm quite happy to avoid Provincetown on summer weekends. It's quite normal and pleasant other times of the year. I wish Bath Houses were not sexualized. In Japan going to the neighborhood Bathhouse to wash up for the day and then have a nice hot soak and chat up your friends is a big part of their culture. I wish we had that here. That's gay!  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
HabteSelassie
|
|
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2012, 11:56:16 AM » |
|
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! I've been to most of these cities, and lived a little more than an hour from SF for most of my life. SF is the gayest city in the United States, hands down. God help us if that's what we've got to look forward to from the homosexuality advocates: An America where every city looks like the Castro district. No thank you. (I don't mind SF on the whole, though. A bit too hip and expensive, but still a nice place to visit every so often.)
I think you just mean "open" however San Francisco has so many more charms than just that. It is a bit expensive and feels very touristy in places, but it is one of the few urban downtowns I could see myself living in. In regards to "gay" cities in the US, so what. Big deal? Let's just worry about ourselves, and practice the golden rule regarding others. The way my priest explains it to me, Orthodox is about worrying about your own sins while assuming everybody else BUT ourselves is getting into the Kingdom (Luke 18:9-14) stay blessed, habte selassie |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
|
|
|
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Section Moderator
Taxiarches
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 5,427
|
|
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2012, 12:20:51 PM » |
|
Fact Check: This ranking was made by a gay advocacy group for the sole purpose of advancing the notion that gays are everywhere and in much higher numbers than counted in the census. Here is a telling quote: ""If we were having a more scientific survey, I don't know that we would choose these as indicators," Valerie Larabee, director of the Utah Pride Center in Salt Lake City, told the Salt Lake Tribune."
Didn't anyone read the article or were y'all going off on the notion of FLC being gayer than SF?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
lubeltri
|
|
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2012, 12:50:49 PM » |
|
Well, one of their criteria was number of entrants in a national "leather" competition; that says all you need to know about this list as well as gay culture.
Even in staid Massachusetts, where we've had court-imposed gay marriage for 8 years, hardly any gays bother to tie the knot.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
ialmisry
|
|
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2012, 01:38:41 PM » |
|
Fact Check: This ranking was made by a gay advocacy group for the sole purpose of advancing the notion that gays are everywhere and in much higher numbers than counted in the census. Here is a telling quote: ""If we were having a more scientific survey, I don't know that we would choose these as indicators," Valerie Larabee, director of the Utah Pride Center in Salt Lake City, told the Salt Lake Tribune."
Didn't anyone read the article or were y'all going off on the notion of FLC being gayer than SF?
no, just playin' along. My views aren't going to change, even if they were everywhere (btw, I lived for years in "Boystown," with someone who might have been in the closet). |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
|
|
|
|
ialmisry
|
|
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2012, 01:39:53 PM » |
|
I'm from Atlanta, and I would have to say that I'd be very surprised if any other city in America today more closely resembles Sodom and Gomorrah than the ATL.
Selam
Oh brother... Yes, it's indeed sad to see what that wonderful city has become. It was great when I was growing up there, but after the Olympics came everything went down hill very rapidly, just as I predicted. It's a completely different city now, and its former laid back Southern charm has been negated by the influx of crass yankees, and yes, the proliferation of sodomites. (Since the title of this thread is blatantly politically incorrect, I feel no need to hold back here. ) Selam It seems you're right. I have a number of actively homosexual friends in Boston, and they complain about how "conservative" Boston is, and they rave about Atlanta, considering it one of the great places for gays; I know several who have actually moved to there from here. It is true that Massachusetts, the state with the lowest divorce rate, is pretty uptight in general. Bathhouses are not allowed, and porn and sex shops are pretty thin on the ground. The gays have to go all the way out to the tip of Cape Cod at Provincetown in order to escape the "oppressive" atmosphere of Puritan Boston. Not that I am complaining, I'm quite happy to avoid Provincetown on summer weekends. It's quite normal and pleasant other times of the year. I wish Bath Houses were not sexualized. In Japan going to the neighborhood Bathhouse to wash up for the day and then have a nice hot soak and chat up your friends is a big part of their culture. I wish we had that here. That's gay! It would seem you mean  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
|
|
|
|
Papist
|
|
« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2012, 01:53:20 PM » |
|
Well, one of their criteria was number of entrants in a national "leather" competition; that says all you need to know about this list as well as gay culture.
Yes, but there people, even here on this forum, will be upset that you point this out. However, you are correct, and it is a sad reality. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
|
|
|
|
ialmisry
|
|
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2012, 02:27:19 PM » |
|
Well, one of their criteria was number of entrants in a national "leather" competition; that says all you need to know about this list as well as gay culture.
Yes, but there people, even here on this forum, will be upset that you point this out. However, you are correct, and it is a sad reality. did they count heterosexual leather contests (are there such things?), to assess how much the cities in question are gay or just kinky? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
|
|
|
|
Papist
|
|
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2012, 02:31:52 PM » |
|
Well, one of their criteria was number of entrants in a national "leather" competition; that says all you need to know about this list as well as gay culture.
Yes, but there people, even here on this forum, will be upset that you point this out. However, you are correct, and it is a sad reality. did they count heterosexual leather contests (are there such things?), to assess how much the cities in question are gay or just kinky? Well, the kinky stuff seems to pervade gay culture. Have you ever been to the Castro district in San Francisco or Boy's Town in Chicago? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
|
|
|
|
ialmisry
|
|
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2012, 02:53:40 PM » |
|
Well, one of their criteria was number of entrants in a national "leather" competition; that says all you need to know about this list as well as gay culture.
Yes, but there people, even here on this forum, will be upset that you point this out. However, you are correct, and it is a sad reality. did they count heterosexual leather contests (are there such things?), to assess how much the cities in question are gay or just kinky? Well, the kinky stuff seems to pervade gay culture. Have you ever been to the Castro district in San Francisco No, I had my sons with me in SF. So I steered quite clear, not going near it even out of curiosity. or Boy's Town in Chicago?
Fact Check: This ranking was made by a gay advocacy group for the sole purpose of advancing the notion that gays are everywhere and in much higher numbers than counted in the census. Here is a telling quote: ""If we were having a more scientific survey, I don't know that we would choose these as indicators," Valerie Larabee, director of the Utah Pride Center in Salt Lake City, told the Salt Lake Tribune."
Didn't anyone read the article or were y'all going off on the notion of FLC being gayer than SF?
no, just playin' along. My views aren't going to change, even if they were everywhere (btw, I lived for years in "Boystown," with someone who might have been in the closet). |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
|
|
|
augustin717
Warned
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Romanian Orthodox
Posts: 3,946
|
|
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2012, 03:02:37 PM » |
|
On a Saturday night really, there is no difference between what's going on on Halsted (gay) and Clark (straight). So, please, refine your prejudices.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
lubeltri
|
|
« Reply #78 on: May 12, 2012, 04:04:42 PM » |
|
On a Saturday night really, there is no difference between what's going on on Halsted (gay) and Clark (straight). So, please, refine your prejudices.
You don't think Sodom is very much mainstream in the "gay community"? Check out San Francisco's Folsom Street Fair, which draws 400,000 and is the third largest spectator event in California (after the Tournament of Roses and San Francisco Pride--the latter famous for its public street sex). Do a google image search for the fair (make sure you have safe search disabled or you may have no results). - I wonder if couples like the Peters twins should be allowed to get “married”? http://www.salon.com/2010/05/21/twincest/While the concept of twin performers is not new to the gay porn world, the Peters twins are notable both because of the extent of their popularity and the things they are willing to do with each other on camera. They French kiss; they perform oral sex on each other; they have anal sex; and most shockingly of all, they do it in a tender and romantic way.
“My brother is my boyfriend, and I am his boyfriend,” says one of the twins during a phone call from Prague (Elijah and Milo sound so much alike on the phone it is impossible to tell which one is speaking). “He is my lifeblood, and he is my only love.”
The twins’ astonishing lack of shame — and their willingness to do anything with each other on camera — has helped turn them into a gay porn phenomenon. Since they first began appearing on Czech porn studio Bel Ami’s website in 2009, the company’s traffic has doubled to 1.5 million users per month, and Milo and Elijah have become the subject of breathless coverage on adult blogging sites like Fleshbot and The Sword. They’ve even been flown from Prague to the United States for a whirlwind tour of Florida gay nightspots. But their surprising popularity raises some disturbing questions: Who are these twins? What keeps so many people watching them? And what, exactly, are viewers getting off on?-- A study to be released next month is offering a rare glimpse inside gay relationships and reveals that monogamy is not a central feature for many. Some gay men and lesbians argue that, as a result, they have stronger, longer-lasting and more honest relationships. And while that may sound counterintuitive, some experts say boundary-challenging gay relationships represent an evolution in marriage — one that might point the way for the survival of the institution.
New research at San Francisco State University reveals just how common open relationships are among gay men and lesbians in the Bay Area. The Gay Couples Study has followed 556 male couples for three years — about 50 percent of those surveyed have sex outside their relationships, with the knowledge and approval of their partners.
That consent is key. “With straight people, it’s called affairs or cheating,” said Colleen Hoff, the study’s principal investigator, “but with gay people it does not have such negative connotations.”
The study also found open gay couples just as happy in their relationships as pairs in sexually exclusive unions, Dr. Hoff said. A different study, published in 1985, concluded that open gay relationships actually lasted longer.
None of this is news in the gay community, but few will speak publicly about it. Of the dozen people in open relationships contacted for this column, no one would agree to use his or her full name, citing privacy concerns. They also worried that discussing the subject could undermine the legal fight for same-sex marriage.http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.htmlJust a representative sample. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 04:06:27 PM by lubeltri »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
laconicstudent
Member
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319
|
|
« Reply #79 on: May 12, 2012, 04:11:31 PM » |
|
On a Saturday night really, there is no difference between what's going on on Halsted (gay) and Clark (straight). So, please, refine your prejudices.
You don't think Sodom is very much mainstream in the "gay community"? Check out San Francisco's Folsom Street Fair, which draws 400,000 and is the third largest spectator event in California (after the Tournament of Roses and San Francisco Pride--the latter famous for its public street sex). Do a google image search for the fair (make sure you have safe search disabled or you may have no results). - I wonder if couples like the Peters twins should be allowed to get “married”? http://www.salon.com/2010/05/21/twincest/While the concept of twin performers is not new to the gay porn world, the Peters twins are notable both because of the extent of their popularity and the things they are willing to do with each other on camera. They French kiss; they perform oral sex on each other; they have anal sex; and most shockingly of all, they do it in a tender and romantic way.
“My brother is my boyfriend, and I am his boyfriend,” says one of the twins during a phone call from Prague (Elijah and Milo sound so much alike on the phone it is impossible to tell which one is speaking). “He is my lifeblood, and he is my only love.”
The twins’ astonishing lack of shame — and their willingness to do anything with each other on camera — has helped turn them into a gay porn phenomenon. Since they first began appearing on Czech porn studio Bel Ami’s website in 2009, the company’s traffic has doubled to 1.5 million users per month, and Milo and Elijah have become the subject of breathless coverage on adult blogging sites like Fleshbot and The Sword. They’ve even been flown from Prague to the United States for a whirlwind tour of Florida gay nightspots. But their surprising popularity raises some disturbing questions: Who are these twins? What keeps so many people watching them? And what, exactly, are viewers getting off on?-- A study to be released next month is offering a rare glimpse inside gay relationships and reveals that monogamy is not a central feature for many. Some gay men and lesbians argue that, as a result, they have stronger, longer-lasting and more honest relationships. And while that may sound counterintuitive, some experts say boundary-challenging gay relationships represent an evolution in marriage — one that might point the way for the survival of the institution.
New research at San Francisco State University reveals just how common open relationships are among gay men and lesbians in the Bay Area. The Gay Couples Study has followed 556 male couples for three years — about 50 percent of those surveyed have sex outside their relationships, with the knowledge and approval of their partners.
That consent is key. “With straight people, it’s called affairs or cheating,” said Colleen Hoff, the study’s principal investigator, “but with gay people it does not have such negative connotations.”
The study also found open gay couples just as happy in their relationships as pairs in sexually exclusive unions, Dr. Hoff said. A different study, published in 1985, concluded that open gay relationships actually lasted longer.
None of this is news in the gay community, but few will speak publicly about it. Of the dozen people in open relationships contacted for this column, no one would agree to use his or her full name, citing privacy concerns. They also worried that discussing the subject could undermine the legal fight for same-sex marriage.http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.htmlJust a representative sample. Are you trying to suggest that two incestuous celebrity porn star brothers are representative of the homosexual community worldwide?  The idea that any two people, let alone people this bizarre, are in any way a "representative sample" is downright hilarious to anyone with any understanding of statistics. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 04:11:48 PM by laconicstudent »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
ialmisry
|
|
« Reply #80 on: May 12, 2012, 04:12:18 PM » |
|
On a Saturday night really, there is no difference between what's going on on Halsted (gay) and Clark (straight). So, please, refine your prejudices.
I condemn both, except that what happens on Clark might end in marriage but what happens on Halsted cannot. So, no prejudices to refine. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
|
|
|
|
ialmisry
|
|
« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2012, 04:16:04 PM » |
|
On a Saturday night really, there is no difference between what's going on on Halsted (gay) and Clark (straight). So, please, refine your prejudices.
You don't think Sodom is very much mainstream in the "gay community"? Check out San Francisco's Folsom Street Fair, which draws 400,000 and is the third largest spectator event in California (after the Tournament of Roses and San Francisco Pride--the latter famous for its public street sex). Do a google image search for the fair (make sure you have safe search disabled or you may have no results). - I wonder if couples like the Peters twins should be allowed to get “married”? http://www.salon.com/2010/05/21/twincest/While the concept of twin performers is not new to the gay porn world, the Peters twins are notable both because of the extent of their popularity and the things they are willing to do with each other on camera. They French kiss; they perform oral sex on each other; they have anal sex; and most shockingly of all, they do it in a tender and romantic way.
“My brother is my boyfriend, and I am his boyfriend,” says one of the twins during a phone call from Prague (Elijah and Milo sound so much alike on the phone it is impossible to tell which one is speaking). “He is my lifeblood, and he is my only love.”
The twins’ astonishing lack of shame — and their willingness to do anything with each other on camera — has helped turn them into a gay porn phenomenon. Since they first began appearing on Czech porn studio Bel Ami’s website in 2009, the company’s traffic has doubled to 1.5 million users per month, and Milo and Elijah have become the subject of breathless coverage on adult blogging sites like Fleshbot and The Sword. They’ve even been flown from Prague to the United States for a whirlwind tour of Florida gay nightspots. But their surprising popularity raises some disturbing questions: Who are these twins? What keeps so many people watching them? And what, exactly, are viewers getting off on?-- A study to be released next month is offering a rare glimpse inside gay relationships and reveals that monogamy is not a central feature for many. Some gay men and lesbians argue that, as a result, they have stronger, longer-lasting and more honest relationships. And while that may sound counterintuitive, some experts say boundary-challenging gay relationships represent an evolution in marriage — one that might point the way for the survival of the institution.
New research at San Francisco State University reveals just how common open relationships are among gay men and lesbians in the Bay Area. The Gay Couples Study has followed 556 male couples for three years — about 50 percent of those surveyed have sex outside their relationships, with the knowledge and approval of their partners.
That consent is key. “With straight people, it’s called affairs or cheating,” said Colleen Hoff, the study’s principal investigator, “but with gay people it does not have such negative connotations.”
The study also found open gay couples just as happy in their relationships as pairs in sexually exclusive unions, Dr. Hoff said. A different study, published in 1985, concluded that open gay relationships actually lasted longer.
None of this is news in the gay community, but few will speak publicly about it. Of the dozen people in open relationships contacted for this column, no one would agree to use his or her full name, citing privacy concerns. They also worried that discussing the subject could undermine the legal fight for same-sex marriage.http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.htmlJust a representative sample. Are you trying to suggest that two incestuous celebrity porn star brothers are representative of the homosexual community worldwide? The idea that any two people, let alone people this bizarre, are in any way a "representative sample" is downright hilarious to anyone with any understanding of statistics. I'd wager their are more of twins ilk among the homosexual community than among us straight folk. I can't think of ANY celebrated brother-sister team (although I admit I wouldn't be interested). Can you? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
|
|
|
laconicstudent
Member
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319
|
|
« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2012, 04:26:50 PM » |
|
On a Saturday night really, there is no difference between what's going on on Halsted (gay) and Clark (straight). So, please, refine your prejudices.
You don't think Sodom is very much mainstream in the "gay community"? Check out San Francisco's Folsom Street Fair, which draws 400,000 and is the third largest spectator event in California (after the Tournament of Roses and San Francisco Pride--the latter famous for its public street sex). Do a google image search for the fair (make sure you have safe search disabled or you may have no results). - I wonder if couples like the Peters twins should be allowed to get “married”? http://www.salon.com/2010/05/21/twincest/While the concept of twin performers is not new to the gay porn world, the Peters twins are notable both because of the extent of their popularity and the things they are willing to do with each other on camera. They French kiss; they perform oral sex on each other; they have anal sex; and most shockingly of all, they do it in a tender and romantic way.
“My brother is my boyfriend, and I am his boyfriend,” says one of the twins during a phone call from Prague (Elijah and Milo sound so much alike on the phone it is impossible to tell which one is speaking). “He is my lifeblood, and he is my only love.”
The twins’ astonishing lack of shame — and their willingness to do anything with each other on camera — has helped turn them into a gay porn phenomenon. Since they first began appearing on Czech porn studio Bel Ami’s website in 2009, the company’s traffic has doubled to 1.5 million users per month, and Milo and Elijah have become the subject of breathless coverage on adult blogging sites like Fleshbot and The Sword. They’ve even been flown from Prague to the United States for a whirlwind tour of Florida gay nightspots. But their surprising popularity raises some disturbing questions: Who are these twins? What keeps so many people watching them? And what, exactly, are viewers getting off on?-- A study to be released next month is offering a rare glimpse inside gay relationships and reveals that monogamy is not a central feature for many. Some gay men and lesbians argue that, as a result, they have stronger, longer-lasting and more honest relationships. And while that may sound counterintuitive, some experts say boundary-challenging gay relationships represent an evolution in marriage — one that might point the way for the survival of the institution.
New research at San Francisco State University reveals just how common open relationships are among gay men and lesbians in the Bay Area. The Gay Couples Study has followed 556 male couples for three years — about 50 percent of those surveyed have sex outside their relationships, with the knowledge and approval of their partners.
That consent is key. “With straight people, it’s called affairs or cheating,” said Colleen Hoff, the study’s principal investigator, “but with gay people it does not have such negative connotations.”
The study also found open gay couples just as happy in their relationships as pairs in sexually exclusive unions, Dr. Hoff said. A different study, published in 1985, concluded that open gay relationships actually lasted longer.
None of this is news in the gay community, but few will speak publicly about it. Of the dozen people in open relationships contacted for this column, no one would agree to use his or her full name, citing privacy concerns. They also worried that discussing the subject could undermine the legal fight for same-sex marriage.http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.htmlJust a representative sample. Are you trying to suggest that two incestuous celebrity porn star brothers are representative of the homosexual community worldwide? The idea that any two people, let alone people this bizarre, are in any way a "representative sample" is downright hilarious to anyone with any understanding of statistics. I'd wager their are more of twins ilk among the homosexual community than among us straight folk. *shrug* And I'd wager they aren't. I can't think of ANY celebrated brother-sister team (although I admit I wouldn't be interested). Can you?
Neither can I off the top of my head. Do you honestly believe that if I went to Google and started wading through that kind of filth, I wouldn't be able to find an example? It isn't exactly news that the lure of the forbidden can be exciting. This is no different. It doesn't mean the partners Steve and John who live down the street from you desperately want to sex their own brothers any more than you your sister. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
lubeltri
|
|
« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2012, 04:31:41 PM » |
|
Of course he missed my point. Reading comprehension?
If you noticed the phrases I bolded, I was pointing out that the Peters twins (who are not the only "twincest" stars; there are even some triplet porn stars) are very popular celebrities in the "gay community", enough to double an already very popular porn site's traffic and to be paraded about in South Florida's gay scene. And why wouldn't they be popular? Having sex with yourself is the apotheosis of narcissism, even more than having sex with a member your own sex.
Is it not strange to you that 2 of the 3 biggest spectator events in California are public exhibitions of gay sex in all its fetish varieties?
Like I said, that's just a sample. The "gay community" is at the cutting edge of decadent perversion although the "straight" world is working hard to catch up.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
laconicstudent
Member
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319
|
|
« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2012, 04:41:47 PM » |
|
Of course he missed my point. Reading comprehension? Oh do grow up. If you noticed the phrases I bolded, I was pointing out that the Peters twins (who are not the only "twincest" stars; there are even some triplet porn stars) are very popular celebrities in the "gay community", enough to double an already very popular porn site's traffic and to be paraded about in South Florida's gay scene. Well gee, so sorry I don't keep up with news in the world of gay pornography.  And why wouldn't they be popular? Having sex with yourself is the apotheosis of narcissism, even more than having sex with a member your own sex. Um, no, it would be the apotheosis of kin selection, and having sex with your own sex has nothing to do with narcissism. Is it not strange to you that 2 of the 3 biggest spectator events in California are public exhibitions of gay sex in all its fetish varieties? *shrug* You haven't given me any reason to believe this yet. Like I said, that's just a sample. No, it isn't. A "sample" is when you randomly collect people from a population. For this to be a sample you'd have to have collected at least several dozen homosexual individuals from the community you are interested in looking at, at random. A handful of fetishist porn stars are about as far away from being a representative sample as you can get. The "gay community" is at the cutting edge of decadent perversion although the "straight" world is working hard to catch up. Ok. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 04:54:11 PM by laconicstudent »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
augustin717
Warned
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Romanian Orthodox
Posts: 3,946
|
|
« Reply #85 on: May 12, 2012, 04:53:28 PM » |
|
Of course he missed my point. Reading comprehension?
If you noticed the phrases I bolded, I was pointing out that the Peters twins (who are not the only "twincest" stars; there are even some triplet porn stars) are very popular celebrities in the "gay community", enough to double an already very popular porn site's traffic and to be paraded about in South Florida's gay scene. And why wouldn't they be popular? Having sex with yourself is the apotheosis of narcissism, even more than having sex with a member your own sex.
Is it not strange to you that 2 of the 3 biggest spectator events in California are public exhibitions of gay sex in all its fetish varieties?
Like I said, that's just a sample. The "gay community" is at the cutting edge of decadent perversion although the "straight" world is working hard to catch up.
You are quite up to date on this stuff. Are you a seminarian? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Punch
|
|
« Reply #86 on: May 12, 2012, 07:17:18 PM » |
|
I'm from Atlanta, and I would have to say that I'd be very surprised if any other city in America today more closely resembles Sodom and Gomorrah than the ATL.
Selam
Oh brother... Yes, it's indeed sad to see what that wonderful city has become. It was great when I was growing up there, but after the Olympics came everything went down hill very rapidly, just as I predicted. It's a completely different city now, and its former laid back Southern charm has been negated by the influx of crass yankees, and yes, the proliferation of sodomites. (Since the title of this thread is blatantly politically incorrect, I feel no need to hold back here. ) Selam It seems you're right. I have a number of actively homosexual friends in Boston, and they complain about how "conservative" Boston is, and they rave about Atlanta, considering it one of the great places for gays; I know several who have actually moved to there from here. It is true that Massachusetts, the state with the lowest divorce rate, is pretty uptight in general. Bathhouses are not allowed, and porn and sex shops are pretty thin on the ground. The gays have to go all the way out to the tip of Cape Cod at Provincetown in order to escape the "oppressive" atmosphere of Puritan Boston. Not that I am complaining, I'm quite happy to avoid Provincetown on summer weekends. It's quite normal and pleasant other times of the year. I wish Bath Houses were not sexualized. In Japan going to the neighborhood Bathhouse to wash up for the day and then have a nice hot soak and chat up your friends is a big part of their culture. I wish we had that here. That's gay! It would seem you mean No, I meant what I wrote. I was just letting Marc know that I was pulling his . . . uh . . . leg. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Punch
|
|
« Reply #87 on: May 12, 2012, 07:20:23 PM » |
|
Of course he missed my point. Reading comprehension?
If you noticed the phrases I bolded, I was pointing out that the Peters twins (who are not the only "twincest" stars; there are even some triplet porn stars) are very popular celebrities in the "gay community", enough to double an already very popular porn site's traffic and to be paraded about in South Florida's gay scene. And why wouldn't they be popular? Having sex with yourself is the apotheosis of narcissism, even more than having sex with a member your own sex.
Is it not strange to you that 2 of the 3 biggest spectator events in California are public exhibitions of gay sex in all its fetish varieties?
Like I said, that's just a sample. The "gay community" is at the cutting edge of decadent perversion although the "straight" world is working hard to catch up.
You are quite up to date on this stuff. Are you a seminarian? LOL |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,202
|
|
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2012, 10:48:50 PM » |
|
Fact Check: This ranking was made by a gay advocacy group for the sole purpose of advancing the notion that gays are everywhere and in much higher numbers than counted in the census. Here is a telling quote: ""If we were having a more scientific survey, I don't know that we would choose these as indicators," Valerie Larabee, director of the Utah Pride Center in Salt Lake City, told the Salt Lake Tribune."
Didn't anyone read the article or were y'all going off on the notion of FLC being gayer than SF?
no, just playin' along. My views aren't going to change, even if they were everywhere (btw, I lived for years in "Boystown," with someone who might have been in the closet). Boystown has such low rents, it's ridiculous. The only thing separating me from Boystown the two years I had a studio of my own was about two blocks. Not a bad area of town, though not somewhere I would want to walk through to get to work early in the morning (which I have)- I'm not prepared to live up to unrealistic expectations (you know, "down there") brought about by store mannequins until at least my third cup of coffee and quite possibly second or third beer. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
|
|
Father H
Formerly "FatherHLL"
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,197
|
|
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2012, 10:55:55 PM » |
|
I want to go back to the days when we could not discuss this topic on this forum.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
