Eastern Catholics

[elijahmaria]

I figure when the Romanians and Ukranians are ready to join Orthodoxy, they will let y'all know.

Btw, you are aware that the VAST majority of Romanians and Ukrainians confess Orthodoxy, no? In fact, that at the time that the "union of Alba Iulia" and the "union of Brest-Lvov" were mandated by the secular authorities, the vast majority of the Orthodox Faithful remained Faithful.

Define "vast majority"...

When you get around the 3/4 mark, you're approaching the vast majority.  In present day Romania 86.8% (Moldova, 98%) in Ukraine 83.7%.  Vast enough for you?

Often safer to talk Orthodox demographics in terms of percentages...

[ialmisry]

I figure when the Romanians and Ukranians are ready to join Orthodoxy, they will let y'all know.

Btw, you are aware that the VAST majority of Romanians and Ukrainians confess Orthodoxy, no? In fact, that at the time that the "union of Alba Iulia" and the "union of Brest-Lvov" were mandated by the secular authorities, the vast majority of the Orthodox Faithful remained Faithful.

Define "vast majority"...

When you get around the 3/4 mark, you're approaching the vast majority.  In present day Romania 86.8% (Moldova, 98%) in Ukraine 83.7%.  Vast enough for you?

Often safer to talk Orthodox demographics in terms of percentages...

I thought you were going to sleep.

Safer why?  Can't the Vatican do percentages?

That comes out to about 22 million for Romania and Moldova (18.2m and 3.5m), and just under 40 million for Ukraine.  The Romanian Orthodox Church has about 20 million members (about 1 million in Italy). Those numbers aren't too large for your abacus, are they?

[elijahmaria]

I figure when the Romanians and Ukranians are ready to join Orthodoxy, they will let y'all know.

Btw, you are aware that the VAST majority of Romanians and Ukrainians confess Orthodoxy, no? In fact, that at the time that the "union of Alba Iulia" and the "union of Brest-Lvov" were mandated by the secular authorities, the vast majority of the Orthodox Faithful remained Faithful.

Define "vast majority"...

When you get around the 3/4 mark, you're approaching the vast majority.  In present day Romania 86.8% (Moldova, 98%) in Ukraine 83.7%.  Vast enough for you?

Often safer to talk Orthodox demographics in terms of percentages...

I thought you were going to sleep.

Safer why?  Can't the Vatican do percentages?

I can't sleep.  I am worried about my mother.  They want to send her home from the residential rehab, and I think they are a week premature in terms of her getting her strength back...She's had two surgeries...huge surgeries...in five weeks.  The first one was a repair on a broken hip.  She was much stronger when she went in for the last surgery two weeks ago.  I had hoped they'd give her 3 weeks of skilled recovery time...but they seem to be dead set on cutting her off this at the end of the second week.  I can't be with her 24/7 so I am not sure how well she'll do when I am not there at night.

The Vatican can do percentages.

[ialmisry]

I figure when the Romanians and Ukranians are ready to join Orthodoxy, they will let y'all know.

Btw, you are aware that the VAST majority of Romanians and Ukrainians confess Orthodoxy, no? In fact, that at the time that the "union of Alba Iulia" and the "union of Brest-Lvov" were mandated by the secular authorities, the vast majority of the Orthodox Faithful remained Faithful.

Define "vast majority"...

When you get around the 3/4 mark, you're approaching the vast majority.  In present day Romania 86.8% (Moldova, 98%) in Ukraine 83.7%.  Vast enough for you?

Often safer to talk Orthodox demographics in terms of percentages...

I thought you were going to sleep.

Safer why?  Can't the Vatican do percentages?

I can't sleep.  I am worried about my mother.  They want to send her home from the residential rehab, and I think they are a week premature in terms of her getting her strength back...She's had two surgeries...huge surgeries...in five weeks.  The first one was a repair on a broken hip.  She was much stronger when she went in for the last surgery two weeks ago.  I had hoped they'd give her 3 weeks of skilled recovery time...but they seem to be dead set on cutting her off this at the end of the second week.  I can't be with her 24/7 so I am not sure how well she'll do when I am not there at night.

Speedy recovery to her.

After my step father's code blue this past week, I'm become convinced that he is too stubborn and honorary to die. Now if I could only get my mother to sleep.

The Vatican can do percentages.

Then what's the problem? Most people haven't a clue as to the population of Romania or Ukraine, but they can understand 86.8% and 83.7% without much ado.

[stanley123]

"All members of the Eastern Rite should know and be convinced that they can and should always preserve their legitimate liturgical rite and their established way of life, and that these may not be altered except to obtain for themselves an organic improvement."
This seems like it would rule out any interference by the Western Church in the established way of celibacy for the Eastern Catholic priests of Romania?

You would think so.  But that depends on the sincerity of the declaration.

40+ years later, I think the jury has come back on that.

Although I didn't see where the declaration specifically mentions celibacy, it is pretty well known that many Eastern priests are married. So it does look like a married priesthood would be the established way of life for many Eastern priests, and that Eastern Catholics are well aware of this established way of life (non-celibacy) for its priests.  Is the Vatican violating its declaration to agree to preserve the established way of life of the Eastern priests since it imposes celibacy on the Romanian priests  when they minister in Italy?

[elijahmaria]

Then what's the problem? Most people haven't a clue as to the population of Romania or Ukraine, but they can understand 86.8% and 83.7% without much ado.

Thank you for your good thoughts and prayers.  Getting old is as rugged as the rugged ones getting old.

As to your comment on percentages, I was only teasing you.  You are awful much a sober-sides...or so it seems from here.

[elijahmaria]

Before anyone gets personal, I suggest you all step back and pray for patience before you hit the post buttons again.  Otherwise, 99 day post moderation will be meted out to all parties involved in this latest urination contest.

   This one was almost magical in the immediacy of its impact!!...

We [the usual suspects] are much nicer when we are much nicer. 

Ain't you proud of us?...

[podkarpatska]

As one who has lived in the midst of communities and families rendered by the split among the Orthodox and the Eastern Catholics I have several points from my perspective:

    a. Latin rite Catholics have never and currently do NOT understand the Eastern Catholic Churches.

    b. Latin rite Catholics will never and do NOT accept any theological or ecclesial distinctions between the Latin church and the Easterners even if the 'sui juris' Eastern Churches thoughtfully and intelligently proclaim an argument that such differences exist and are proper within their view of the 'universal' church. (see for example many writings from the Melkites and some of the essays of Cardinal Lubomir Husar.)

(emphasis added)

podkarpatska, I believe your accusations are absurd and baseless. However, I'm just going to let the readers decide for themselves (both because I'm trying to heed the mod's recent call for civility, and because I'm just plain tired of dealing with these silly generalizations) ...

"but I also have a profound respect for those who did not and remained Eastern Catholic as I understand the forces that motivated them."

Podkarpatska,
I'm trying to better understand why Eastern Catholics are reluctant to re-join the Orthodox church. Can you elaborate on these forces that motivate them to stay EC? Is it simply a matter of anti-Russian/anti-communist sentiments?

For most ECs, it wouldn't be a matter of re-joining the Orthodox Church*, but rather of joining it for the first time.


*At least not in the literal sense. I suppose you could call it "re-joining" in the sense that their ancestors were Orthodox. Not really the same thing though.

Peter is completely wrong and typifies the usual Latin understanding of the Eastern Catholics.

Sorry, but unless you've walked the walk, it's tough to talk the talk. I know far more BCC priests than most of you and with few exceptions they will privately agree with what I stated. From Archbishop Ireland through and including retired Cardinal Mahoney, there are example after example of Latin rite imperialism and condescension towards the Easterners and their beliefs and practices. For every Archbishop Sheen or Cardinal Krol who respected the Easterners, there are myriads of others who do not.

[podkarpatska]

There's no such thing as "Romanian rite bishops". There's a Romanian Catholic Church (it uses the Byzantine Rite).

"Churches"?  Pshaw!   That's a new-fangled piece of meaningless feel-good vocabulary crafted after Vatican II.

They've always been known as (in this case)  "Roman Catholics of the Byzantine Rite."

It's certainly true that they have sometimes been called that, but how far back does it go? For example, were they called that in the agreement of the Union of Brest? Or is it just something from the last couple centuries?

The Union of Brest does not speak at all of those coming into union with Rome as constituting a "Church."  It is primarily anxious that Rome will allow them to preserve their own ritual usages and not make them conform to Rome.

http://ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TREATBR.HTM

Alright. I guess I never really thought about it that way before.

P.S. It's been some time since I read it, and I'm not going to re-read it right now, but I do observe that the term "rite" can't be found in it.

It can be found here:

DECREE ON THE CATHOLIC CHURCHES
OF THE EASTERN RITE
ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

THE INDIVIDUAL CHURCHES OR RITES

2. The Holy Catholic Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ, is made up of the faithful who are organically united in the Holy Spirit by the same faith, the same sacraments and the same government and who, combining together into various groups which are held together by a hierarchy, form separate Churches or Rites....for it is the mind of the Catholic Church that each individual Church or Rite should retain its traditions whole and entire and likewise that it should adapt its way of life to the different needs of time and place (S. Leo IX, Litt. In terra pax, an. 1053: Ut enim; Innocentius III, Synodus Lateranensis IV, an. 1215, cap. IV: . Licet Graccos; Litt. Inter quatuor, 2 aug. 1206: Postulasti postmodum; Innocentius IV, Ep. Cum de cetero, 27 aug. 1247; Ep. Sub catholicae, 6 mart. 1254, proem.; Nicolaus III, Instructio Istud est memoriale, 9 oct. 1278; Leo X, Litt. Ap. Accepimus nuper, 18 maii 1521; Paulus III, Litt. Ap. Dudum, 23 dec. 1534; Pius IV, Const. Romanus Pontifex, 16 febr. 1564, 5; Clemens VIII, Const. Magnus Dominus, 23 dec. 1595, 10; Paulus V, Const. Solet circumspeata, 10 dec. 1615, 3; Benedictus XIV, Ep. Enc. Demandatam, 24 dec. 1743, 3; Ep. Enc. Allatae sunt, 26 iun. 1755, 3, 6-19, 32; Pius VI, Litt. Enc. Catholicae communionis, 24 maii 1787; Pius IX, Litt. In suprema, 6 ian. 1848, 3; Litt. Ap. Ecclesiam Christ;, 26 nov. 1853; Const. Romani Pontificis, 6 ian. 1862; Leo XIII, Litt. Ap. Praeclara, 20 iun. 1894, n. 7; Litt. Ap. Orientalium dignitas, 30 nov. 1894, proem.; etc. ).  3. These individual Churches, whether of the East or the West, although they differ somewhat among themselves in rite (to use the current phrase), that is, in liturgy, ecclesiastical discipline, and spiritual heritage, are, nevertheless, each as much as the others, entrusted to the pastoral government of the Roman Pontiff, the divinely appointed successor of St. Peter in primacy over the universal Church...

PRESERVATION OF THE SPIRITUAL HERITAGE OF THE EASTERN CHURCHES

6. All members of the Eastern Rite should know and be convinced that they can and should always preserve their legitimate liturgical rite and their established way of life, and that these may not be altered except to obtain for themselves an organic improvement. All these, then, must be observed by the members of the Eastern rites themselves. Besides, they should attain to on ever greater knowledge and a more exact use of them, and, if in their regard they have fallen short owing to contingencies of times and persons, they should take steps to return to their ancestral traditions.

21. Individual faithful dwelling outside the area or territory of their own rite may follow completely the established custom of the place where they live as regards the law of the sacred seasons. In families of mixed rite it is permissible to observe this law according to one and the same rite.

Four decades later, and they are still fighting for what Vatican II said they had.

It does seem that "sui juris churches" arose in the wake of VII:

4. Means should be taken therefore in every part of the world for the protection and advancement of all the individual Churches and, to this end, there should be established parishes and a special hierarchy where the spiritual good of the faithful demands it. The hierarchs of the different individual Churches with jurisdiction in one and the same territory should, by taking common counsel in regular meetings, strive to promote unity of action and with common endeavor to sustain common tasks, so as better to further the good of religion and to safeguard more effectively the ordered way of life of the clergy.

EASTERN RITE PATRIARCHS

7. The patriarchate, as an institution, has existed in the Church from the earliest times and was recognized by the first ecumenical councils.(

By the name Eastern patriarch, is meant the bishop to whom belongs jurisdiction over all bishops, not excepting metropolitans clergy and people of his own territory or rite, in accordance with canon law and without prejudice to the primacy of the Roman Pontiff

Wherever an hierarch of any rite is appointed outside the territorial bounds of the patriarchate, he remains attached to the hierarchy of the patriarchate of that rite, in accordance with canon law.

The patriarchs with their synods are the highest authority for all business of the patriarchate, including the right of establishing new eparchies and of nominating bishops of their rite within the territorial bounds of the patriarchate, without prejudice to the inalienable right of the Roman Pontiff to intervene in individual cases.

10. What has been said of patriarchs is valid also, in harmony with the canon law, in respect to major archbishops, who rule the whole of some individual church or rite.

11. Seeing that the patriarchal office in the Eastern Church is a traditional form of government, the Sacred Ecumenical Council ardently desires that new patriarchates should be erected where there is need, to be established either by an ecumenical council or by the Roman Pontiff.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html

Btw, this was issued at a time when there was a Latin Patriarchate in EACH and EVERY one of the Pentarchy. Or, rather, claimed: they were titular bishops in Rome.  Of course.

"All members of the Eastern Rite should know and be convinced that they can and should always preserve their legitimate liturgical rite and their established way of life, and that these may not be altered except to obtain for themselves an organic improvement."
This seems like it would rule out any interference by the Western Church in the established way of celibacy for the Eastern Catholic priests of Romania?

Actions speak louder than words.

For an intelligent, thought provoking commentary on this subject the address of Fr. Robert Taft of some ten years ago is on point. I do not agree with him on many issues, but this is worth reading, or re-reading as the case may be.  http://www.archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Anamnesis%20not%20Amnesia.pdf

[elijahmaria]

For an intelligent, thought provoking commentary on this subject the address of Fr. Robert Taft of some ten years ago is on point. I do not agree with him on many issues, but this is worth reading, or re-reading as the case may be.  http://www.archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Anamnesis%20not%20Amnesia.pdf

Father Robert is stogy and can be most bitingly arrogant.  I disliked this document when it came out and I dislike it today.  It is written with all of the Latin high-handedness that I have come to expect from that particular fellow.

I think that if our eastern Bishops in the United States had been a tad more on the holy side, we might have seen a more active approach toward restoration of tradition during the papacy of John Paul II.  But by then, the unholy bishops of the middle decades of the 20th century had mostly been replaced by Latin-raised men who love the east, from a distance.   At least that is the Ruthenian story as I have come in contact with it.  There were some very venal bishops in those middle decades, who don't even get an honorable mention on the dishonorable honor roll.  We are still paying for their sins, as a Church.

I don't know if the ugly parts of the story will ever come out.  They did more damnable damage than any damnable Latinizer...and they were all nash.

M.

[ialmisry]

For an intelligent, thought provoking commentary on this subject the address of Fr. Robert Taft of some ten years ago is on point. I do not agree with him on many issues, but this is worth reading, or re-reading as the case may be.  http://www.archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Anamnesis%20not%20Amnesia.pdf

Father Robert is stogy and can be most bitingly arrogant.  I disliked this document when it came out and I dislike it today.  It is written with all of the Latin high-handedness that I have come to expect from that particular fellow.

Too much truth?

It does have its errors, but most of his account on the origin of uniatism (and he is very specific to use that term) isn't one of them.

[elijahmaria]

For an intelligent, thought provoking commentary on this subject the address of Fr. Robert Taft of some ten years ago is on point. I do not agree with him on many issues, but this is worth reading, or re-reading as the case may be.  http://www.archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Anamnesis%20not%20Amnesia.pdf

Father Robert is stogy and can be most bitingly arrogant.  I disliked this document when it came out and I dislike it today.  It is written with all of the Latin high-handedness that I have come to expect from that particular fellow.

Too much truth?

It does have its errors, but most of his account on the origin of uniatism (and he is very specific to use that term) isn't one of them.

No.  Not too much truth at all.

Talking to you is like talking to my mother.  Her way or the high way...put words in people's mouths and win the day...

Win the day and loose a life-time.

[JLatimer]

just wonder : Why do we consider Roman Catholics to be outside of the Church?

"It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity, in which "every tongue" believed and "was brought together" to God."" - St. Ignatius of Antioch

[username!]

For an intelligent, thought provoking commentary on this subject the address of Fr. Robert Taft of some ten years ago is on point. I do not agree with him on many issues, but this is worth reading, or re-reading as the case may be.  http://www.archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Anamnesis%20not%20Amnesia.pdf

.

I don't know if the ugly parts of the story will ever come out.  They did more damnable damage than any damnable Latinizer...and they were all nash.

M.

The whole Greek Catholic story is a intense personal expericne for many Eastern Christians.  I'm not sure if being po nasumu has much to do with it, or if the term nash came post-Greek Catholic into OOrthodoxy seperation in the Coal fields of the east.   I remember the liturgy in both the Ruthenian and the Urkainian Greek catholic churches 5o ro six years ago versus the ones I've seen recently, and boy, I can say it a s a former Greek Catholic that when ten steps are taken forward towards restoring Eastern pratices they take fifteen back to please Rome, but usually by that point Rome has moved on from the point the Greek Catholics are trying to succumb too.  I saw a video of the 350th anniversary of the union of brest, a liturgy celebrated at St. Peters's @ the Vatican.  Pope JP 2 didn't even stay for the whole liturgy, leaving after the homily.  I would take that as a slap in theface, that the Vatican cares so little about the Greek Catholics the pope can't even stay for the whole 350th anniversary celebration of them being stolen into his flock.

[elijahmaria]

For an intelligent, thought provoking commentary on this subject the address of Fr. Robert Taft of some ten years ago is on point. I do not agree with him on many issues, but this is worth reading, or re-reading as the case may be.  http://www.archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Anamnesis%20not%20Amnesia.pdf

.

I don't know if the ugly parts of the story will ever come out.  They did more damnable damage than any damnable Latinizer...and they were all nash.

M.

The whole Greek Catholic story is a intense personal expericne for many Eastern Christians.  I'm not sure if being po nasumu has much to do with it, or if the term nash came post-Greek Catholic into OOrthodoxy seperation in the Coal fields of the east.   I remember the liturgy in both the Ruthenian and the Urkainian Greek catholic churches 5o ro six years ago versus the ones I've seen recently, and boy, I can say it a s a former Greek Catholic that when ten steps are taken forward towards restoring Eastern pratices they take fifteen back to please Rome, but usually by that point Rome has moved on from the point the Greek Catholics are trying to succumb too.  I saw a video of the 350th anniversary of the union of brest, a liturgy celebrated at St. Peters's @ the Vatican.  Pope JP 2 didn't even stay for the whole liturgy, leaving after the homily.  I would take that as a slap in theface, that the Vatican cares so little about the Greek Catholics the pope can't even stay for the whole 350th anniversary celebration of them being stolen into his flock.

I don't suppose he could have been ill?...old and sick and worn down so that he had to leave early?  I don't suppose you'd give him that much, eh?

[ialmisry]

For an intelligent, thought provoking commentary on this subject the address of Fr. Robert Taft of some ten years ago is on point. I do not agree with him on many issues, but this is worth reading, or re-reading as the case may be.  http://www.archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Anamnesis%20not%20Amnesia.pdf

Father Robert is stogy and can be most bitingly arrogant.  I disliked this document when it came out and I dislike it today.  It is written with all of the Latin high-handedness that I have come to expect from that particular fellow.

Too much truth?

It does have its errors, but most of his account on the origin of uniatism (and he is very specific to use that term) isn't one of them.

No.  Not too much truth at all.

The vast majority, the 3/4 75% rule.

Talking to you is like talking to my mother.  Her way or the high way...put words in people's mouths and win the day...

I'm not puting anything in anyone's mouth that they didn't spit out already.

Win the day and loose a life-time.

Matthew 18: 15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32

[ialmisry]

For an intelligent, thought provoking commentary on this subject the address of Fr. Robert Taft of some ten years ago is on point. I do not agree with him on many issues, but this is worth reading, or re-reading as the case may be.  http://www.archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Anamnesis%20not%20Amnesia.pdf

.

I don't know if the ugly parts of the story will ever come out.  They did more damnable damage than any damnable Latinizer...and they were all nash.

M.

The whole Greek Catholic story is a intense personal expericne for many Eastern Christians.  I'm not sure if being po nasumu has much to do with it, or if the term nash came post-Greek Catholic into OOrthodoxy seperation in the Coal fields of the east.   I remember the liturgy in both the Ruthenian and the Urkainian Greek catholic churches 5o ro six years ago versus the ones I've seen recently, and boy, I can say it a s a former Greek Catholic that when ten steps are taken forward towards restoring Eastern pratices they take fifteen back to please Rome, but usually by that point Rome has moved on from the point the Greek Catholics are trying to succumb too.  I saw a video of the 350th anniversary of the union of brest, a liturgy celebrated at St. Peters's @ the Vatican.  Pope JP 2 didn't even stay for the whole liturgy, leaving after the homily.  I would take that as a slap in theface, that the Vatican cares so little about the Greek Catholics the pope can't even stay for the whole 350th anniversary celebration of them being stolen into his flock.

I don't suppose he could have been ill?...old and sick and worn down so that he had to leave early?  I don't suppose you'd give him that much, eh?

in 1996?

[username!]

For an intelligent, thought provoking commentary on this subject the address of Fr. Robert Taft of some ten years ago is on point. I do not agree with him on many issues, but this is worth reading, or re-reading as the case may be.  http://www.archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Anamnesis%20not%20Amnesia.pdf

.

I don't know if the ugly parts of the story will ever come out.  They did more damnable damage than any damnable Latinizer...and they were all nash.

M.

The whole Greek Catholic story is a intense personal expericne for many Eastern Christians.  I'm not sure if being po nasumu has much to do with it, or if the term nash came post-Greek Catholic into OOrthodoxy seperation in the Coal fields of the east.   I remember the liturgy in both the Ruthenian and the Urkainian Greek catholic churches 5o ro six years ago versus the ones I've seen recently, and boy, I can say it a s a former Greek Catholic that when ten steps are taken forward towards restoring Eastern pratices they take fifteen back to please Rome, but usually by that point Rome has moved on from the point the Greek Catholics are trying to succumb too.  I saw a video of the 350th anniversary of the union of brest, a liturgy celebrated at St. Peters's @ the Vatican.  Pope JP 2 didn't even stay for the whole liturgy, leaving after the homily.  I would take that as a slap in theface, that the Vatican cares so little about the Greek Catholics the pope can't even stay for the whole 350th anniversary celebration of them being stolen into his flock.

I don't suppose he could have been ill?...old and sick and worn down so that he had to leave early?  I don't suppose you'd give him that much, eh?

Worn down, sick 1996?  I saw them cart him out fairly close to his passing and he would sit through and celebrate mass.  I have the video, he looks perfectly alright in it.

[username!]

I mean I have the 350th anniversary of brest video and he looks fine in it.  They say JP2's mum was either Greek Catholic or Orthodox, I've heard both stories, however she was rumoured to have been a Ukrainian from Southeast Poland, Lemko/Boyko.

[podkarpatska]

For an intelligent, thought provoking commentary on this subject the address of Fr. Robert Taft of some ten years ago is on point. I do not agree with him on many issues, but this is worth reading, or re-reading as the case may be.  http://www.archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Anamnesis%20not%20Amnesia.pdf

Father Robert is stogy and can be most bitingly arrogant.  I disliked this document when it came out and I dislike it today.  It is written with all of the Latin high-handedness that I have come to expect from that particular fellow.

Too much truth?

It does have its errors, but most of his account on the origin of uniatism (and he is very specific to use that term) isn't one of them.

Actually, the parts on the origins are what I thought were most interesting. And yes, he is a bit on the stodgy side, grumpy even per some I know who have to deal with him.

[podkarpatska]

For an intelligent, thought provoking commentary on this subject the address of Fr. Robert Taft of some ten years ago is on point. I do not agree with him on many issues, but this is worth reading, or re-reading as the case may be.  http://www.archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Anamnesis%20not%20Amnesia.pdf

.

I don't know if the ugly parts of the story will ever come out.  They did more damnable damage than any damnable Latinizer...and they were all nash.

M.

The whole Greek Catholic story is a intense personal expericne for many Eastern Christians.  I'm not sure if being po nasumu has much to do with it, or if the term nash came post-Greek Catholic into OOrthodoxy seperation in the Coal fields of the east.   I remember the liturgy in both the Ruthenian and the Urkainian Greek catholic churches 5o ro six years ago versus the ones I've seen recently, and boy, I can say it a s a former Greek Catholic that when ten steps are taken forward towards restoring Eastern pratices they take fifteen back to please Rome, but usually by that point Rome has moved on from the point the Greek Catholics are trying to succumb too.  I saw a video of the 350th anniversary of the union of brest, a liturgy celebrated at St. Peters's @ the Vatican.  Pope JP 2 didn't even stay for the whole liturgy, leaving after the homily.  I would take that as a slap in theface, that the Vatican cares so little about the Greek Catholics the pope can't even stay for the whole 350th anniversary celebration of them being stolen into his flock.

It is indeed intensely personal to many of us. Watching videos from Muchachevo on youtube points out what Username is saying. http://www.youtube.com/user/logostvuzhgorod  On the one hand, there are parts of the services that move anyone with roots from that region to almost tears, be they Orthodox or Greek Catholic. (For example, in these Bishop Milan appears so similar to the late Metropolitan Nicholas of ACROD and the singing is wonderful.....http://www.youtube.com/user/logostvuzhgorod#p/f/74/-78WOi1LL8E and http://www.youtube.com/user/logostvuzhgorod) Yet, there are other videos from a recent pilgrimage with guitars, modern (ugh) Roman Catholic hymns and other western innovations. http://www.youtube.com/user/logostvuzhgorod#p/f/12/1o32l-XjDK8  Go figure?

[Peter J]

I saw a video of the 350th anniversary of the union of brest, a liturgy celebrated at St. Peters's @ the Vatican. 

You mean 400th.

[Peter J]

As one who has lived in the midst of communities and families rendered by the split among the Orthodox and the Eastern Catholics I have several points from my perspective:

    a. Latin rite Catholics have never and currently do NOT understand the Eastern Catholic Churches.

    b. Latin rite Catholics will never and do NOT accept any theological or ecclesial distinctions between the Latin church and the Easterners even if the 'sui juris' Eastern Churches thoughtfully and intelligently proclaim an argument that such differences exist and are proper within their view of the 'universal' church. (see for example many writings from the Melkites and some of the essays of Cardinal Lubomir Husar.)

(emphasis added)

podkarpatska, I believe your accusations are absurd and baseless. However, I'm just going to let the readers decide for themselves (both because I'm trying to heed the mod's recent call for civility, and because I'm just plain tired of dealing with these silly generalizations) ...

"but I also have a profound respect for those who did not and remained Eastern Catholic as I understand the forces that motivated them."

Podkarpatska,
I'm trying to better understand why Eastern Catholics are reluctant to re-join the Orthodox church. Can you elaborate on these forces that motivate them to stay EC? Is it simply a matter of anti-Russian/anti-communist sentiments?

For most ECs, it wouldn't be a matter of re-joining the Orthodox Church*, but rather of joining it for the first time.


*At least not in the literal sense. I suppose you could call it "re-joining" in the sense that their ancestors were Orthodox. Not really the same thing though.

Peter is completely wrong and typifies the usual Latin understanding of the Eastern Catholics.

Sorry, but unless you've walked the walk, it's tough to talk the talk. I know far more BCC priests than most of you and with few exceptions they will privately agree with what I stated. From Archbishop Ireland through and including retired Cardinal Mahoney, there are example after example of Latin rite imperialism and condescension towards the Easterners and their beliefs and practices. For every Archbishop Sheen or Cardinal Krol who respected the Easterners, there are myriads of others who do not.

podkarpatska, I remember well our conversation of a few months ago. When I asked you (repeated, in fact) about your statement "Peter is completely wrong and typifies the usual Latin understanding of the Eastern Catholics" you responded by pointing, not to anything I had said, but rather to wrongs committed by Latin Catholics before I was born! It's no great surprise to me that you have decided to try that same tactic on this thread.

[elijahmaria]

For an intelligent, thought provoking commentary on this subject the address of Fr. Robert Taft of some ten years ago is on point. I do not agree with him on many issues, but this is worth reading, or re-reading as the case may be.  http://www.archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Anamnesis%20not%20Amnesia.pdf

.

I don't know if the ugly parts of the story will ever come out.  They did more damnable damage than any damnable Latinizer...and they were all nash.

M.

The whole Greek Catholic story is a intense personal expericne for many Eastern Christians.  I'm not sure if being po nasumu has much to do with it, or if the term nash came post-Greek Catholic into OOrthodoxy seperation in the Coal fields of the east.   I remember the liturgy in both the Ruthenian and the Urkainian Greek catholic churches 5o ro six years ago versus the ones I've seen recently, and boy, I can say it a s a former Greek Catholic that when ten steps are taken forward towards restoring Eastern pratices they take fifteen back to please Rome, but usually by that point Rome has moved on from the point the Greek Catholics are trying to succumb too.  I saw a video of the 350th anniversary of the union of brest, a liturgy celebrated at St. Peters's @ the Vatican.  Pope JP 2 didn't even stay for the whole liturgy, leaving after the homily.  I would take that as a slap in theface, that the Vatican cares so little about the Greek Catholics the pope can't even stay for the whole 350th anniversary celebration of them being stolen into his flock.

I don't suppose he could have been ill?...old and sick and worn down so that he had to leave early?  I don't suppose you'd give him that much, eh?

in 1996?

Yes. 

[elijahmaria]

For an intelligent, thought provoking commentary on this subject the address of Fr. Robert Taft of some ten years ago is on point. I do not agree with him on many issues, but this is worth reading, or re-reading as the case may be.  http://www.archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Anamnesis%20not%20Amnesia.pdf

Father Robert is stogy and can be most bitingly arrogant.  I disliked this document when it came out and I dislike it today.  It is written with all of the Latin high-handedness that I have come to expect from that particular fellow.

Too much truth?

It does have its errors, but most of his account on the origin of uniatism (and he is very specific to use that term) isn't one of them.

Actually, the parts on the origins are what I thought were most interesting. And yes, he is a bit on the stodgy side, grumpy even per some I know who have to deal with him.

You can say it...It ain't no grimy secret.  He's mean!!

Yes. There are good things in the article that most of us could pick out of the history books, and more,  but in the end it is all about Robert Taft's understanding of things...

I love his text on the Liturgy of the Hours, East and West, however....Now there he is in his academic element and it is technically superb.

But I only bow and scrape to God and the holy.

[Michał Kalina]

Wyatt's opinion about Bishops was moved to Orthodox-Other Christian Private Discussions. If you don't have an access there, ask FrChris.

[podkarpatska]

As one who has lived in the midst of communities and families rendered by the split among the Orthodox and the Eastern Catholics I have several points from my perspective:

    a. Latin rite Catholics have never and currently do NOT understand the Eastern Catholic Churches.

    b. Latin rite Catholics will never and do NOT accept any theological or ecclesial distinctions between the Latin church and the Easterners even if the 'sui juris' Eastern Churches thoughtfully and intelligently proclaim an argument that such differences exist and are proper within their view of the 'universal' church. (see for example many writings from the Melkites and some of the essays of Cardinal Lubomir Husar.)

(emphasis added)

podkarpatska, I believe your accusations are absurd and baseless. However, I'm just going to let the readers decide for themselves (both because I'm trying to heed the mod's recent call for civility, and because I'm just plain tired of dealing with these silly generalizations) ...

"but I also have a profound respect for those who did not and remained Eastern Catholic as I understand the forces that motivated them."

Podkarpatska,
I'm trying to better understand why Eastern Catholics are reluctant to re-join the Orthodox church. Can you elaborate on these forces that motivate them to stay EC? Is it simply a matter of anti-Russian/anti-communist sentiments?

For most ECs, it wouldn't be a matter of re-joining the Orthodox Church*, but rather of joining it for the first time.


*At least not in the literal sense. I suppose you could call it "re-joining" in the sense that their ancestors were Orthodox. Not really the same thing though.

Peter is completely wrong and typifies the usual Latin understanding of the Eastern Catholics.

Sorry, but unless you've walked the walk, it's tough to talk the talk. I know far more BCC priests than most of you and with few exceptions they will privately agree with what I stated. From Archbishop Ireland through and including retired Cardinal Mahoney, there are example after example of Latin rite imperialism and condescension towards the Easterners and their beliefs and practices. For every Archbishop Sheen or Cardinal Krol who respected the Easterners, there are myriads of others who do not.

podkarpatska, I remember well our conversation of a few months ago. When I asked you (repeated, in fact) about your statement "Peter is completely wrong and typifies the usual Latin understanding of the Eastern Catholics" you responded by pointing, not to anything I had said, but rather to wrongs committed by Latin Catholics before I was born! It's no great surprise to me that you have decided to try that same tactic on this thread.

Perhaps you and I are talking past each other and I certainly don't mean to imply that you share the opinions of clerics like Archbishop Ireland or Cardinal Mahoney in this regard.

However, having grown up in a close knit neighborhood where my father (baptized and raised as a Greek Catholic) was the Orthodox priest of one of the four slavic Orthodox parishes and where three ethnic Roman Catholic parishes and two Greek Catholic parishes all 'co-existed' and struggled among themselves to secure their own 'piece of the pie' I have a fair amount of first hand experience and knowledge. Certainly my opinions are colored by my own, and my parents' experiences, but they are what they are.

For example, when I was in elementary school both the Greek Catholics and the Orthodox were still on the old calendar. I remember the Polish and Slovak children giggling about how the 'JV team' (junior varsity) and the 'indypindys' got the day off. The JV team were the Greek Catholics and the 'indypindys' (i.e. independents) were the Orthodox. The adults were no better. I should add that we were just as cruel and judgmental of the Catholic kids with our parents and grandparents' own names for them! People would cross the street rather than acknowledge the existence of their neighbors church. This was NOT unique to my hometown; the same scenario was replayed across the northeast and midwest US and across Canada.

I am told that the only safe haven for the children of the Greek Catholic priests through the 1930's was at the Slovak Elementary school where the sisters from the old country were familiar with married Eastern Rite clergy and their families and the good nuns provided a safe haven for them. Of course by my time, these schools were closing and there were no more children of married Greek Catholic priests.

Things are not like that anymore, but within the Roman church there still exists a widespread ignorance about Orthodoxy and particularly about their own Eastern Catholic brethren. Just speak to any Eastern catholic parents who send their children to a Roman Catholic parochial school and see just how much respect is GENERALLY afforded to them and their traditions.

I am truly sorry if you are personally offended as your own conduct is not reflective of the type of conduct I have dealt with over the years, but if the truth is rough and if it hurts - so be it. There is enough blame to go around regarding the Roman Catholics, the Greek Catholics and the Orthodox and their behavior towards each other over the centuries and we will all be held to account in some manner for how we failed to act as we are charged. As I have often noted, I have family and friends, both lay and religious, in both 'camps' and on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. We all have dealt with these issues in our own ways and almost all of the many people in my experience share in some of the sentiments that I and others like username have expressed. (I say almost all because there are some who have bought into the 'party line' whether it comes from Rome or Moscow, but they are the exception.)

[Gorazd]

No handshake of peace among the congregation at a traditional Orthodox Liturgy.

Depends what you define as traditional, how old the tradition is, etc.

In Romanian churches, the handshake is usual (i.e. it took place in all Romanian parishes I have visited, both in Romania itself and in Western Europe), but I have no idea how old that practice is.

Also, I know at least one parish in Ukraine (UOC-MP) that does the peace, but with kissing each other on the cheek.

[Byron]

To those who are saying that the Vatican has annulled the decree againt Eastern Catholic married clergy - are you aware how recent it is?

Thursday, March 03, 2011
Roman Catholic bishops veto married Eastern Rite priests in Italy

Italian news sources are reporting that the Italian Episcopal Conference
(CEI) has vetoed the idea of allowing married priests of the Romanian
Catholic Church (one of the Eastern Catholic Churches in union with the pope
of Rome) to exercise their priestly ministry in Italy.

In an article entitled "Priests of a Lesser God: CEI - New Veto to the
Presence of Married Catholic Clergy in Italy," Italian news service Adista
reported obtaining a copy of a confidential letter written last September 13
by Cardinal Angelo Bagnasco, president of the Italian Episcopal Conference
to Lucian Muresan, Major Archbishop of the Romanian Catholic Church. In it,
Cardinal Bugnasco explained the position of the Italian Episcopal Conference
regarding not allowing the presence of married Romanian Catholic priests in
Italy. (The Romanian Catholic Church follows the Byzantine liturgical rite
and retains many customs - such as a married priesthood - similar to Eastern
Orthodoxy, from which it broke away in 1698 when it entered union with Rome.
It is estimated there are 800,000 Romanian Catholics in Italy.) Cardinal
Bagnasco, appointed by Pope Benedict XVI in 2007 to be President of the CEI,
said that the Bishops' Conference

"after having carefully examined the issue in light of the figures relating
to the consistency of the ethnic communities from Eastern European countries
and the situation of clergy in the Italian dioceses, believes that, at
present and in general, there is not 'just and reasonable cause' to justify
the granting of the dispensation."

Read the rest here
http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2011/03/02/italian-catholic-episcopal-conference-vetoes-married-priests/

I have a problem with the news report stating there are 800,000 Romanian Catholics in Italy. That's far too big a figure.
It seems more likely there are 800,000 Romanians in Italy not Romanian Catholics. The last time i checked there were only about 200,000 Romanian Catholic (eastern rite catholic) in the whole of Romania.
Does anyone have reliable stats on Romanian Catholics/Orthodox in Italy?

[Irish Hermit]

To those who are saying that the Vatican has annulled the decree againt Eastern Catholic married clergy - are you aware how recent it is?

Thursday, March 03, 2011
Roman Catholic bishops veto married Eastern Rite priests in Italy

Italian news sources are reporting that the Italian Episcopal Conference
(CEI) has vetoed the idea of allowing married priests of the Romanian
Catholic Church (one of the Eastern Catholic Churches in union with the pope
of Rome) to exercise their priestly ministry in Italy.

In an article entitled "Priests of a Lesser God: CEI - New Veto to the
Presence of Married Catholic Clergy in Italy," Italian news service Adista
reported obtaining a copy of a confidential letter written last September 13
by Cardinal Angelo Bagnasco, president of the Italian Episcopal Conference
to Lucian Muresan, Major Archbishop of the Romanian Catholic Church. In it,
Cardinal Bugnasco explained the position of the Italian Episcopal Conference
regarding not allowing the presence of married Romanian Catholic priests in
Italy. (The Romanian Catholic Church follows the Byzantine liturgical rite
and retains many customs - such as a married priesthood - similar to Eastern
Orthodoxy, from which it broke away in 1698 when it entered union with Rome.
It is estimated there are 800,000 Romanian Catholics in Italy.) Cardinal
Bagnasco, appointed by Pope Benedict XVI in 2007 to be President of the CEI,
said that the Bishops' Conference

"after having carefully examined the issue in light of the figures relating
to the consistency of the ethnic communities from Eastern European countries
and the situation of clergy in the Italian dioceses, believes that, at
present and in general, there is not 'just and reasonable cause' to justify
the granting of the dispensation."

Read the rest here
http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2011/03/02/italian-catholic-episcopal-conference-vetoes-married-priests/

I have a problem with the news report stating there are 800,000 Romanian Catholics in Italy. That's far too big a figure.
It seems more likely there are 800,000 Romanians in Italy not Romanian Catholics. The last time i checked there were only about 200,000 Romanian Catholic (eastern rite catholic) in the whole of Romania.
Does anyone have reliable stats on Romanian Catholics/Orthodox in Italy?

The "Annuario Pontificio" 2010 gives a grand total of less than 800,000 Romanian Greek Catholics - 707, 452

http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

They are in critical decline.  The 1995 figure was 2,011,635

[Byron]

To those who are saying that the Vatican has annulled the decree againt Eastern Catholic married clergy - are you aware how recent it is?

Thursday, March 03, 2011
Roman Catholic bishops veto married Eastern Rite priests in Italy

Italian news sources are reporting that the Italian Episcopal Conference
(CEI) has vetoed the idea of allowing married priests of the Romanian
Catholic Church (one of the Eastern Catholic Churches in union with the pope
of Rome) to exercise their priestly ministry in Italy.

In an article entitled "Priests of a Lesser God: CEI - New Veto to the
Presence of Married Catholic Clergy in Italy," Italian news service Adista
reported obtaining a copy of a confidential letter written last September 13
by Cardinal Angelo Bagnasco, president of the Italian Episcopal Conference
to Lucian Muresan, Major Archbishop of the Romanian Catholic Church. In it,
Cardinal Bugnasco explained the position of the Italian Episcopal Conference
regarding not allowing the presence of married Romanian Catholic priests in
Italy. (The Romanian Catholic Church follows the Byzantine liturgical rite
and retains many customs - such as a married priesthood - similar to Eastern
Orthodoxy, from which it broke away in 1698 when it entered union with Rome.
It is estimated there are 800,000 Romanian Catholics in Italy.) Cardinal
Bagnasco, appointed by Pope Benedict XVI in 2007 to be President of the CEI,
said that the Bishops' Conference

"after having carefully examined the issue in light of the figures relating
to the consistency of the ethnic communities from Eastern European countries
and the situation of clergy in the Italian dioceses, believes that, at
present and in general, there is not 'just and reasonable cause' to justify
the granting of the dispensation."

Read the rest here
http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2011/03/02/italian-catholic-episcopal-conference-vetoes-married-priests/

I have a problem with the news report stating there are 800,000 Romanian Catholics in Italy. That's far too big a figure.
It seems more likely there are 800,000 Romanians in Italy not Romanian Catholics. The last time i checked there were only about 200,000 Romanian Catholic (eastern rite catholic) in the whole of Romania.
Does anyone have reliable stats on Romanian Catholics/Orthodox in Italy?

The "Annuario Pontificio" 2010 gives a grand total of less than 800,000 Romanian Greek Catholics - 707, 452

http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

They are in critical decline.  The 1995 figure was 2,011,635

Even 707,000 seems like a bloated figure to me even for the whole of Romania. There must be very few in Italy. Certainly not the 700,000 stated in the news report.

[josephgodleski1966]

sorry but i agree xenia on this i was born with one parent eastern rite catholic and one latin rite  and i went to for a while to the byzantine catholic church and a ukrainian rite and saw  even difference  between the  few eastern  rites i had  visited for instants  the ukrainian and the melkite  are treated  and looked upon by rome with more respect then the other 21 rites because the melkite and the ukrainians are the largest of the eastern rite churches  and have more to bring to the table  when they choose to reunite with rome  the byzantine  catholic church they were treated like  dogs being thrown a bone and they are glad for what they got when rome  allowed them to join  also i was told by a malabar rite  catholic priest in my area  that they do the mass in their rite but in here in america they give out the latin rite wafer for commuion  and in byzantine catholic parishes especial here in the northeast  you will see crucifixs  adore the wall and maybe a staue  i asked the  priest why and he said because they have very few bishops of their own so they are pretty much  influenced by latinization  by the local latin rite bishop they is why i made the move to orthodoxy i found the over  a bit much in florida they have  a italian priest who is bi ritual and  does  the latin rite mass and the byzantine rine mass in a  byzantine catholic parish in central florida

[ICXCNIKA]

While I found this thread interesting I would like to see a thread started by a Greek Catholic stating what they like about being Greek Catholic, what is currently working well in their Churches etc. A positive thread.

[elijahmaria]

While I found this thread interesting I would like to see a thread started by a Greek Catholic stating what they like about being Greek Catholic, what is currently working well in their Churches etc. A positive thread.

I do not believe that would fit with any of the purposes for posting supported by OC.net.

[Peter J]

I do not believe that would fit with any of the purposes for posting supported by OC.net.

I think I would like to see that list.

[J Michael]

While I found this thread interesting I would like to see a thread started by a Greek Catholic stating what they like about being Greek Catholic, what is currently working well in their Churches etc. A positive thread.

This would be a perfect topic over at byzcath.org, I would think.  It may already have been discussed, but that's just a guess.

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