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« Reply #270 on: January 17, 2012, 03:28:53 PM »

Sorry if I caused any confusion.  Undecided I'm just going to get some tea now.
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« Reply #271 on: January 17, 2012, 03:30:06 PM »

Can you explain to me how 5 loaves and 2 fish filled the bellies of 5000 people plus 12 baskets? Others are not wrong to point out to you that Christ's glorified human body is not necessarily subject to the same rules as (what we consider) 'normal' human nature, but we really don't even have to go that far in speculating about what is 'natural' to such a body.
Again, i'm not suggesting it's not possible. I'm concerned about the impact this would have on His being 100% human.

But that's exactly my point. Christ took 100% normal bread and by His divine power multiplied it. But it remained 100% normal bread. If Christ by His divine power multiplies His flesh how does that have any impact on whether it remains 'fully human'?

I've been mulling this over and wonder if you could clarify the Orthodox position regarding both the human and divine natures of Jesus. Is it that they are completely separate yet in unity?
He is 100% God and 100% Man. Period.

PP
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« Reply #272 on: January 17, 2012, 03:33:55 PM »

Quote
Well it might be your personal experience but i am an individual and i'm certainly not treating Holy Scripture so lightly and i do take it as a grave accusation and it's somewhat tiresome to have it throw up as standard so often
I can say with complete assuredness, nobody on here, of any Christian stripe, takes scripture lightly. If you think so, then you have a more fundemental problem going on.

Furthmore, it is not a accusation. Luther did these things, and admitted to it. He had deep reservations about some of the epistles, and the Book of James. He also got some of the old testament books removed because there was no hebrew copy. Its not an accusation, it is history AND something luther made no apology for.

PP
I was balking against the idea that i took scripture so lightly that i might utilise it to provide a proof-text for a belief of my own making. I haven't suggested anyone else here does.

I am not the embodiment of Protestant history here, i am simply myself, participating in a thread on a discussion forum. I'm sure Luther did a lot of things and held a lot of beliefs but i am not Lutheran and i'd like to be dealt with and understood as i present myself not under a box load of historic labels and preconceptions.
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« Reply #273 on: January 17, 2012, 03:34:58 PM »

Quote
Well it might be your personal experience but i am an individual and i'm certainly not treating Holy Scripture so lightly and i do take it as a grave accusation and it's somewhat tiresome to have it throw up as standard so often
I can say with complete assuredness, nobody on here, of any Christian stripe, takes scripture lightly. If you think so, then you have a more fundemental problem going on.

Furthmore, it is not a accusation. Luther did these things, and admitted to it. He had deep reservations about some of the epistles, and the Book of James. He also got some of the old testament books removed because there was no hebrew copy. Its not an accusation, it is history AND something luther made no apology for.

PP
I was balking against the idea that i took scripture so lightly that i might utilise it to provide a proof-text a belief of my own. I haven't suggested anyone else here does.

I am not the embodiment of Protestant history here, i am simply myself, participating in a thread on a discussion forum. I'm sure Luther did a lot of things and held a lot of beliefs but i am not Lutheran and i'd like to be dealt with and understood as i present myself not under a box load of historic labels and preconceptions.

Fair enough.
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« Reply #274 on: January 17, 2012, 03:36:33 PM »

Can you explain to me how 5 loaves and 2 fish filled the bellies of 5000 people plus 12 baskets? Others are not wrong to point out to you that Christ's glorified human body is not necessarily subject to the same rules as (what we consider) 'normal' human nature, but we really don't even have to go that far in speculating about what is 'natural' to such a body.
Again, i'm not suggesting it's not possible. I'm concerned about the impact this would have on His being 100% human.

But that's exactly my point. Christ took 100% normal bread and by His divine power multiplied it. But it remained 100% normal bread. If Christ by His divine power multiplies His flesh how does that have any impact on whether it remains 'fully human'?

I've been mulling this over and wonder if you could clarify the Orthodox position regarding both the human and divine natures of Jesus. Is it that they are completely separate yet in unity?
He is 100% God and 100% Man. Period.

PP

That's not what i asked.
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« Reply #275 on: January 17, 2012, 03:37:01 PM »

Can you explain to me how 5 loaves and 2 fish filled the bellies of 5000 people plus 12 baskets? Others are not wrong to point out to you that Christ's glorified human body is not necessarily subject to the same rules as (what we consider) 'normal' human nature, but we really don't even have to go that far in speculating about what is 'natural' to such a body.
Again, i'm not suggesting it's not possible. I'm concerned about the impact this would have on His being 100% human.

But that's exactly my point. Christ took 100% normal bread and by His divine power multiplied it. But it remained 100% normal bread. If Christ by His divine power multiplies His flesh how does that have any impact on whether it remains 'fully human'?

I've been mulling this over and wonder if you could clarify the Orthodox position regarding both the human and divine natures of Jesus. Is it that they are completely separate yet in unity?

The Orthodox Church believes that Christ was completely human and completely divine. He did not sacrifice His Divine Nature when he became human, yet as a human he was tempted (but did not succumb) to sin, wept, sweat, bled, had to eat, sleep, use "the little boys room" etc.

Here is a fuller explanation from the Greek Orthodox Arcdiocese of America:

Quote
Christ is at the same time the son of the Virgin, but also the natural Son of God, by His very nature. His humanity is a real humanity, with a body and soul, which suffered hunger and thirst, which suffered humiliation and the Cross. The Church condemned such heresies as that of the Docetists, who said that Christ's humanity was not real, Arios who taught that there was no soul in Jesus, and Apollinarios of Laodicea who taught that there was no reason in Jesus.

The Church also defended the divinity of Jesus against the Ebionites, who denied Christ's divinity, the Monarchian heresy which subordinated the Son to the Father, and Arianism, which also denied the divinity of the Logos of God. Against all these heretics the Church upheld the doctrine that Christ, a divine person, is "true God of true God," for He is the only begotten Son of God, not in a metaphorical, but a natural sense. He has the divine properties of omniscience and preexistence in terms of God's creation. He is the only one without sin: He operates miracles through His divinity, accepts divine honor and worship due to the divinity, and accepts faith in Him.

Humanity and divinity are hypostatically united together: the two natures exist in the one person of the Word who became flesh, a divine person (or hypostasis). Christ exists "in two natures," without being of two natures; the two natures exist united together "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation." (Council of Chalcedon). The first two adverbs are addressed against the heresy of Eutyches and the monophysites who confused the natures and the last two against the Nestorians, who separated and divided humanity and divinity in Christ.

Consequently, Christ has two wills also and two operations, one human and one divine; the two work together "to achieve man's salvation"; however, the human will and operation is always subjected to the divine (Third Council of Constantinople, the Sixth Ecumenical, against Monothelitism).

The consequences of this hypostatic union of the two natures in Christ are the "coinherence" of human and divine nature, the communicatio idiomatum, the natural sonship of Christ's humanity, one worship of the two natures in Christ, deification of Christ's human nature, Christ's double knowledge and power (however, attributed to one person), Christ's absolute unsinfulness, and the Mother of God being truly Theotokos and Virgin before, during, and after she gave birth to the only-begotten Son of God.
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« Reply #276 on: January 17, 2012, 03:37:44 PM »

Sorry if I caused any confusion.  Undecided I'm just going to get some tea now.

You always make me smile  Smiley
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« Reply #277 on: January 17, 2012, 03:38:38 PM »

You too, thanks.   Wink
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« Reply #278 on: January 17, 2012, 03:42:30 PM »

Can you explain to me how 5 loaves and 2 fish filled the bellies of 5000 people plus 12 baskets? Others are not wrong to point out to you that Christ's glorified human body is not necessarily subject to the same rules as (what we consider) 'normal' human nature, but we really don't even have to go that far in speculating about what is 'natural' to such a body.
Again, i'm not suggesting it's not possible. I'm concerned about the impact this would have on His being 100% human.

But that's exactly my point. Christ took 100% normal bread and by His divine power multiplied it. But it remained 100% normal bread. If Christ by His divine power multiplies His flesh how does that have any impact on whether it remains 'fully human'?

I've been mulling this over and wonder if you could clarify the Orthodox position regarding both the human and divine natures of Jesus. Is it that they are completely separate yet in unity?

The Orthodox Church believes that Christ was completely human and completely divine. He did not sacrifice His Divine Nature when he became human, yet as a human he was tempted (but did not succumb) to sin, wept, sweat, bled, had to eat, sleep, use "the little boys room" etc.

Here is a fuller explanation from the Greek Orthodox Arcdiocese of America:

Quote
Christ is at the same time the son of the Virgin, but also the natural Son of God, by His very nature. His humanity is a real humanity, with a body and soul, which suffered hunger and thirst, which suffered humiliation and the Cross. The Church condemned such heresies as that of the Docetists, who said that Christ's humanity was not real, Arios who taught that there was no soul in Jesus, and Apollinarios of Laodicea who taught that there was no reason in Jesus.

The Church also defended the divinity of Jesus against the Ebionites, who denied Christ's divinity, the Monarchian heresy which subordinated the Son to the Father, and Arianism, which also denied the divinity of the Logos of God. Against all these heretics the Church upheld the doctrine that Christ, a divine person, is "true God of true God," for He is the only begotten Son of God, not in a metaphorical, but a natural sense. He has the divine properties of omniscience and preexistence in terms of God's creation. He is the only one without sin: He operates miracles through His divinity, accepts divine honor and worship due to the divinity, and accepts faith in Him.

Humanity and divinity are hypostatically united together: the two natures exist in the one person of the Word who became flesh, a divine person (or hypostasis). Christ exists "in two natures," without being of two natures; the two natures exist united together "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation." (Council of Chalcedon). The first two adverbs are addressed against the heresy of Eutyches and the monophysites who confused the natures and the last two against the Nestorians, who separated and divided humanity and divinity in Christ.

Consequently, Christ has two wills also and two operations, one human and one divine; the two work together "to achieve man's salvation"; however, the human will and operation is always subjected to the divine (Third Council of Constantinople, the Sixth Ecumenical, against Monothelitism).

The consequences of this hypostatic union of the two natures in Christ are the "coinherence" of human and divine nature, the communicatio idiomatum, the natural sonship of Christ's humanity, one worship of the two natures in Christ, deification of Christ's human nature, Christ's double knowledge and power (however, attributed to one person), Christ's absolute unsinfulness, and the Mother of God being truly Theotokos and Virgin before, during, and after she gave birth to the only-begotten Son of God.

Bingo! Thanks, the quote and link is really helpful.
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« Reply #279 on: January 17, 2012, 03:45:29 PM »

Can you explain to me how 5 loaves and 2 fish filled the bellies of 5000 people plus 12 baskets? Others are not wrong to point out to you that Christ's glorified human body is not necessarily subject to the same rules as (what we consider) 'normal' human nature, but we really don't even have to go that far in speculating about what is 'natural' to such a body.
Again, i'm not suggesting it's not possible. I'm concerned about the impact this would have on His being 100% human.

But that's exactly my point. Christ took 100% normal bread and by His divine power multiplied it. But it remained 100% normal bread. If Christ by His divine power multiplies His flesh how does that have any impact on whether it remains 'fully human'?

I've been mulling this over and wonder if you could clarify the Orthodox position regarding both the human and divine natures of Jesus. Is it that they are completely separate yet in unity?


Chirst is one person with two natures, fully divine and fully human. The two natures are never divided but never confused. (The definitive statement on this, that all Orthodox accept, can be found in the definition of the 5th Ecumenical (available on-line in the Post-Nicean Fathers series--I'd post a link but don't have time to dig it out from work, if you google it you can find it easily).
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« Reply #280 on: January 17, 2012, 03:47:09 PM »

Bingo! Thanks, the quote and link is really helpful.

No problem! Glad to be of service!  Grin
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« Reply #281 on: January 17, 2012, 03:54:16 PM »

Can you explain to me how 5 loaves and 2 fish filled the bellies of 5000 people plus 12 baskets? Others are not wrong to point out to you that Christ's glorified human body is not necessarily subject to the same rules as (what we consider) 'normal' human nature, but we really don't even have to go that far in speculating about what is 'natural' to such a body.
Again, i'm not suggesting it's not possible. I'm concerned about the impact this would have on His being 100% human.

But that's exactly my point. Christ took 100% normal bread and by His divine power multiplied it. But it remained 100% normal bread. If Christ by His divine power multiplies His flesh how does that have any impact on whether it remains 'fully human'?

I've been mulling this over and wonder if you could clarify the Orthodox position regarding both the human and divine natures of Jesus. Is it that they are completely separate yet in unity?


Chirst is one person with two natures, fully divine and fully human. The two natures are never divided but never confused. (The definitive statement on this, that all Orthodox accept, can be found in the definition of the 5th Ecumenical (available on-line in the Post-Nicean Fathers series--I'd post a link but don't have time to dig it out from work, if you google it you can find it easily).
I found it, thanks.
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« Reply #282 on: January 17, 2012, 04:54:04 PM »

So, can you have the mind of Christ and be wrong? St. Peter was, and I think he knew far more than you Alfred BGTF. The difference is that the Church, not individuals in-and-of themselves, can not be overcome by the gates of hell. You quote scripture, but then cast it aside when it does not serve your purposes. You cant have it both ways.

As a former protestant, that is something that I see is the major problem with Protestantism (especially Sola Scriptura and sola fide). It uses scripture as a proof text, but discount what the rest of scripture says (and what history says) to refute their ideas.

PP

I think the process is 1. Start with your conclusion 2. Find passages in Scripture and back into them

The question is then are you willing to apply the wisdom of Holy Tradition. They find passages the COULD mean what they need it to mean. We then have to say, it COULD mean that. How do you then know? Orthodox would then look and see how the passage has been held throughout the history of Christianity. If there is a consistent conclusion then that is what informs us, not our personal preference or only things within our comfort zone.

Oh you mean Holy Tradition? Let's start with the feast concerning the virgin Mary entering into the temple? One of the twelve major feasts i believe and certainly not without large areas of discrepancy. If you want to start a tone of ridicule in this thread Marc, then let's start with this feast and we can move on to other fundamental issues within Orthodoxy and examine them in the same tone shall we?

This is why i don't like your posts.

I do listen, i do think about what people say, i do give Orthodox explanations careful and prayerful consideration and i do apologise when i step over the line and offend. So I don't deserve the same treatment that you would give to someone who is only interested in the sound of their own voice and closed minded to any other possibilities.

With out any sarcasm or hidden meaning, I really don't follow what you are talking about. Can you be clearer or ask a question?

I laid out what appears to me to be the Protestant method. You take passages that could mean any number of things. You then claim to know it's one true meaning, the one that fits your agenda. It's all up to you and your personal interpretation.

On the  other hand we use Holy Tradition which asks a very simple question; How has this passage been understood throughout the Church over a very long period of time? If there has been a consistent reading, we then don't go further with our own personal spin.

It think that is a cogent analysis. Sorry if it makes you not like me. I'll live.
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« Reply #283 on: January 17, 2012, 05:06:56 PM »

This is from:   http://www.goarch.org/special/listen_learn_share/vmpresentation/

Introduction

The Feast of the Entrance into the Temple of Our Most Holy Lady the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary is celebrated on November 21 each year. The Feast commemorates when as a young child, the Virgin Mary entered the Temple in Jerusalem.
Introduction

The birth and early life of the Virgin Mary is not recorded in the Gospels or other books of the New Testament, however this information can be found in a work dating from the second century known as the Book of James or Protevangelion.
----------------------------

How did the Bible come to be compiled? Was it compiled in the 2nd centruy? Certainly not. But there were many "books" in circulation before any of them were canonized. And who decided? Wasn't it the Orthodox-Catholic Church.. us ?

Why are there four Gospels and not just one. Why are there not ten, there could have been. Just because a book didnt make the final cut doesn't mean it is disreputable. We hold the writings of the Fathers of the Church in high regard if they withstand the test of time and don't contradict Holy Scripture.
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« Reply #284 on: January 17, 2012, 05:07:20 PM »

Stop implying she has some kind of hidden agenda. We've all got biases and we all try to work around them as best we can in order to find out what passages mean. You're coming off like a real prig.
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« Reply #285 on: January 17, 2012, 05:08:28 PM »

Stop implying she has some kind of hidden agenda. We've all got biases and we all try to work around them as best we can in order to find out what passages mean. You're coming off like a real prig.

Who is coming off like a prig?  Huh
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« Reply #286 on: January 17, 2012, 05:10:44 PM »

This is from:   http://www.goarch.org/special/listen_learn_share/vmpresentation/

Introduction

The Feast of the Entrance into the Temple of Our Most Holy Lady the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary is celebrated on November 21 each year. The Feast commemorates when as a young child, the Virgin Mary entered the Temple in Jerusalem.
Introduction

The birth and early life of the Virgin Mary is not recorded in the Gospels or other books of the New Testament, however this information can be found in a work dating from the second century known as the Book of James or Protevangelion.
----------------------------


Err, that's going to result in quite a rabbit hole. We should stick to the toe-pick at hand.
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« Reply #287 on: January 17, 2012, 05:11:19 PM »

Stop implying she has some kind of hidden agenda. We've all got biases and we all try to work around them as best we can in order to find out what passages mean. You're coming off like a real prig.

Who is coming off like a prig?  Huh
Sorry. Marky-Marc is.
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« Reply #288 on: January 17, 2012, 05:12:01 PM »

Okay, then.
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« Reply #289 on: January 17, 2012, 05:16:03 PM »

Stop implying she has some kind of hidden agenda. We've all got biases and we all try to work around them as best we can in order to find out what passages mean. You're coming off like a real prig.

Say what? I wasnt talking about someones personal agenda. I was speaking about Standard Protestant Methodology.

Conclusion first.. Pick a passage that could mean several things. Claim it means what you need it to mean.

Nothing personal intended.
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« Reply #290 on: January 17, 2012, 05:19:53 PM »

Stop implying she has some kind of hidden agenda. We've all got biases and we all try to work around them as best we can in order to find out what passages mean. You're coming off like a real prig.

Say what? I wasnt talking about someones personal agenda. I was speaking about Standard Protestant Methodology.

Conclusion first.. Pick a passage that could mean several things. Claim it means what you need it to mean.

Nothing personal intended.
To cite an example:

Can someone tell me, where in scripture exactly, asking Jesus into your heart (as in the Evangelical born-again sinner's prayer, not the Jesus prayer) saves you at that moment and guarantees your salvation once for all time?

Ah, also, no glib, "the prayer doesn't save you, Jesus does" answer. You know what I mean.

PP
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« Reply #291 on: January 17, 2012, 05:22:12 PM »


With out any sarcasm or hidden meaning, I really don't follow what you are talking about.
Why am i not surprised?

Can you be clearer or ask a question?
Yes probably.

I laid out what appears to me to be the Protestant method. You
Me?

take passages that could mean any number of things. You
I do? Where have i done this?

then claim to know it's one true meaning,
Where have i quoted a passage of scripture and claimed it only had one meaning?

the one that fits your agenda.
This, is precisely my point.

It's all up to you and your personal interpretation.
Where have i not listened to others' explanations and interpretations? I think you will find i've asked for others' views and definitions to assist my process on several occasions Marc.

On the  other hand we use Holy Tradition which asks a very simple question; How has this passage been understood throughout the Church over a very long period of time? If there has been a consistent reading, we then don't go further with our own personal spin.

It think that is a cogent analysis.
LOL! Only when spelling cogent, E_R_R_O_N_E_O_U_S.

Sorry if it makes you not like me. I'll live.
Again, where have i said i dislike you? Completely inaccurate once again, i think what i actually said was, i dislike your posts.
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« Reply #292 on: January 17, 2012, 05:25:32 PM »

Stop implying she has some kind of hidden agenda. We've all got biases and we all try to work around them as best we can in order to find out what passages mean. You're coming off like a real prig.

Say what? I wasnt talking about someones personal agenda. I was speaking about Standard Protestant Methodology.

Conclusion first.. Pick a passage that could mean several things. Claim it means what you need it to mean.

Nothing personal intended.
To cite an example:

Can someone tell me, where in scripture exactly, asking Jesus into your heart (as in the Evangelical born-again sinner's prayer, not the Jesus prayer) saves you at that moment and guarantees your salvation once for all time?

Ah, also, no glib, "the prayer doesn't save you, Jesus does" answer. You know what I mean.

PP

If i did hold to the idea of 'asking Jesus into one's heart' (which i don't), then i would have to say it isn't any more in scripture than the word "Trinity" is that most faiths who believe in the Trinity commonly use.
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« Reply #293 on: January 17, 2012, 05:32:18 PM »

Stop implying she has some kind of hidden agenda. We've all got biases and we all try to work around them as best we can in order to find out what passages mean. You're coming off like a real prig.

Say what? I wasnt talking about someones personal agenda. I was speaking about Standard Protestant Methodology.

Conclusion first.. Pick a passage that could mean several things. Claim it means what you need it to mean.

Nothing personal intended.
To cite an example:

Can someone tell me, where in scripture exactly, asking Jesus into your heart (as in the Evangelical born-again sinner's prayer, not the Jesus prayer) saves you at that moment and guarantees your salvation once for all time?

Ah, also, no glib, "the prayer doesn't save you, Jesus does" answer. You know what I mean.

PP

If i did hold to the idea of 'asking Jesus into one's heart' (which i don't), then i would have to say it isn't any more in scripture than the word "Trinity" is that most faiths who believe in the Trinity commonly use.
True. That is the point I am making. Folks scream Scripture alone, but then they dont follow their own tenets because of such a stand.

BTW FP, I wasn't sugesting you did, but I mentioned it because I know you've probably heard of it.

PP
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« Reply #294 on: January 17, 2012, 05:32:57 PM »

*nothing to see here*

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« Reply #295 on: January 17, 2012, 05:33:35 PM »


With out any sarcasm or hidden meaning, I really don't follow what you are talking about.
Why am i not surprised?

Can you be clearer or ask a question?
Yes probably.

I laid out what appears to me to be the Protestant method. You
Me?

take passages that could mean any number of things. You
I do? Where have i done this?

then claim to know it's one true meaning,
Where have i quoted a passage of scripture and claimed it only had one meaning?

the one that fits your agenda.
This, is precisely my point.

It's all up to you and your personal interpretation.
Where have i not listened to others' explanations and interpretations? I think you will find i've asked for others' views and definitions to assist my process on several occasions Marc.

On the  other hand we use Holy Tradition which asks a very simple question; How has this passage been understood throughout the Church over a very long period of time? If there has been a consistent reading, we then don't go further with our own personal spin.

It think that is a cogent analysis.
LOL! Only when spelling cogent, E_R_R_O_N_E_O_U_S.

Sorry if it makes you not like me. I'll live.
Again, where have i said i dislike you? Completely inaccurate once again, i think what i actually said was, i dislike your posts.

I thought you were a Protestant. My error.

Once again. The Protestant method is to cherry pick scriptures that fit their self made views. Passages often can mean several different things. They pick the meaning that fits their own ideas. They reject Holy Tradition so it's every man for himself.

If you want to personalize this be my guest but I meant it as a General criticism
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« Reply #296 on: January 17, 2012, 05:38:08 PM »

Why am i not surprised?


And ....? Did you want to talk about that Feast? Did you have a question about it? Are you speaking in code?
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« Reply #297 on: January 17, 2012, 05:41:42 PM »

Why am i not surprised?


And ....? Did you want to talk about that Feast? Did you have a question about it? Are you speaking in code?

The way you read a post, everything would be in code.

I'm sorry i can't help you Marc, you can have a refund  Wink
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« Reply #298 on: January 17, 2012, 05:44:42 PM »

*nothing to see here*



I read it before you deleted it. You had some good points, especially about humanity being limited but it not being a definition of being human. Still makes me eek a bit though, thinking of it in that way.
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« Reply #299 on: January 17, 2012, 05:54:22 PM »

*nothing to see here*



I read it before you deleted it. You had some good points, especially about humanity being limited but it not being a definition of being human. Still makes me eek a bit though, thinking of it in that way.

i think its common netiquette not to refer to something that someone deleted in a post, they deleted it because they decided they didn't want to discuss it for some reason or another... Wink
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« Reply #300 on: January 17, 2012, 05:58:40 PM »

The plain fact is that we all interpret Scripture - we can't help it, and it's not a bad thing, as long as we realize that we have our own pet theories, experiences, biases, education, assumptions etc. One thing that used to send me into a tizzy was that sincere, devout Christians could take a passage of Scripture and come to totally (and I mean, totally, as in totally opposite) different interpretations of what that passage means. Some folks interpret Genesis literally, and John 6 symbolically - without being able to clearly articulate on what basis they made that determination (consistent hermaneutic).

So how do you know? How can you possibly know whether the Bread and Wine are the Body and Blood, for example, or simply a cool way to remember Jesus and what He did for us?

Was I surprised to find out that you can actually know what Christians have believed, taught and preached for centuries. You can actually read what disciples of the Apostles taught their followers.


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« Reply #301 on: January 17, 2012, 06:12:36 PM »

Stop implying she has some kind of hidden agenda. We've all got biases and we all try to work around them as best we can in order to find out what passages mean. You're coming off like a real prig.

Say what? I wasnt talking about someones personal agenda. I was speaking about Standard Protestant Methodology.

Conclusion first.. Pick a passage that could mean several things. Claim it means what you need it to mean.

Nothing personal intended.
Yes, but you're projecting this disingenuous "stand Protestant methodology" onto FP when it isn't warranted.
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« Reply #302 on: January 17, 2012, 06:28:35 PM »

i think its common netiquette not to refer to something that someone deleted in a post, they deleted it because they decided they didn't want to discuss it for some reason or another... Wink

I missed a page of the thread. What I said was said by other people, and better.
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« Reply #303 on: January 17, 2012, 07:06:45 PM »

Fountain Pen and BGTF, I would like to share with you this blog posting by Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick. It was just posted today, and I think it may answer some of your questions on why we do the things we do and what we believe.

I'm not going to say too much about it, but I do hope you will read it.

Religion, Rules, and Reality

Enjoy!
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« Reply #304 on: January 17, 2012, 08:20:23 PM »

Marc, can you not see the reason i'm questioning it is because the implications of Christ's human body being in more than one place? If that were so, it would mean he wasn't fully human and that would present a serious problem with His nature.
To be vigorously consistent with this objection from necessary localization, would you deny Christ can be in us and we in Him or "wherever two or more gather in my name I am there with them"?

Is Christ really present in this manner or only symbolically present?
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« Reply #305 on: January 17, 2012, 09:06:33 PM »

I was balking against the idea that i took scripture so lightly that i might utilise it to provide a proof-text for a belief of my own making. I haven't suggested anyone else here does.
Such a process, I think, does not necessarily entail something nefarious; everyone who seeks to interpret scripture must do so within a constellation of assumptions which are not self-evident or resolvable strictly by the Renaissance Christian humanist model of grammatical/philological/historical exegesis.

The degree to which this operates within evangelicalism which on a popular level still leans toward outmoded foundationalist assumptions which are virtually indefensible when seriously scrutinized is explained by this Protestant author who has provided an excellent critique of his own tradition's historic sola scriptura (or as he puts it nuda scriptura!) stance.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 09:16:13 PM by xariskai » Logged

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« Reply #306 on: January 17, 2012, 10:12:10 PM »

Why am i not surprised?


And ....? Did you want to talk about that Feast? Did you have a question about it? Are you speaking in code?

The way you read a post, everything would be in code.

I'm sorry i can't help you Marc, you can have a refund  Wink


 You mentioned the Feast for some odd reason. I am guessing your point  is that Mary's entry into the Temple (a standard ritual for pious Jewish girls of her time) is not a story found in Scripture. As I pointed out before, it is found in a pious writing from the 2nd century written by a venerable and well thought of Father of Christianity.  

Does your Church hold weddings ( Rhetorical, no need to answer since I know you need to avoid engaging me)...?
Does the ceremony have the same pattern and ritual each time? The Groom comes in first, the bride walks down the isle latter, Dad gives her away, vows are said, etc.  Well my dear, that's Church Tradition. Where in Scripture does this pattern, ritual and these vows exist? No where, correct?

 But it is also not in contradiction to anything in Scripture and in fact, it upholds the sacrament of Holy Matrimony which we do find mention of in Scripture.

In fact, the Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple is far better grounded than your wedding ceremony. It's found in a very early 2nd Century writing, it upholds the principle of piety towards the Theotokos as found in Scripture and it is even historically accurate , there was such a ritual for young Jewish girls.  

I hope that helps. No need to reply..really.....none.
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« Reply #307 on: January 17, 2012, 10:21:13 PM »

Stop implying she has some kind of hidden agenda. We've all got biases and we all try to work around them as best we can in order to find out what passages mean. You're coming off like a real prig.

Say what? I wasnt talking about someones personal agenda. I was speaking about Standard Protestant Methodology.

Conclusion first.. Pick a passage that could mean several things. Claim it means what you need it to mean.

Nothing personal intended.
Yes, but you're projecting this disingenuous "stand Protestant methodology" onto FP when it isn't warranted.

By my reading of both Protestant Posters this is actually the crux of the question(s) at hand. My opinion , you don't need to agree, 
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« Reply #308 on: January 18, 2012, 04:19:20 AM »


With out any sarcasm or hidden meaning, I really don't follow what you are talking about.
Why am i not surprised?

Can you be clearer or ask a question?
Yes probably.

I laid out what appears to me to be the Protestant method. You
Me?

take passages that could mean any number of things. You
I do? Where have i done this?

then claim to know it's one true meaning,
Where have i quoted a passage of scripture and claimed it only had one meaning?

the one that fits your agenda.
This, is precisely my point.

It's all up to you and your personal interpretation.
Where have i not listened to others' explanations and interpretations? I think you will find i've asked for others' views and definitions to assist my process on several occasions Marc.

On the  other hand we use Holy Tradition which asks a very simple question; How has this passage been understood throughout the Church over a very long period of time? If there has been a consistent reading, we then don't go further with our own personal spin.

It think that is a cogent analysis.
LOL! Only when spelling cogent, E_R_R_O_N_E_O_U_S.

Sorry if it makes you not like me. I'll live.
Again, where have i said i dislike you? Completely inaccurate once again, i think what i actually said was, i dislike your posts.

I thought you were a Protestant. My error.

Once again. The Protestant method is to cherry pick scriptures that fit their self made views. Passages often can mean several different things. They pick the meaning that fits their own ideas. They reject Holy Tradition so it's every man for himself.

If you want to personalize this be my guest but I meant it as a General criticism

Thats the thing.. If someone comes on here without 'orthodox' thinking or understanding, they are immediately looked upon as being 'protestant', with set 'methods' and then treated accordingly. It might be better to just treat people as people rather than 'protestants' or 'evangelicals' just because they don't sound orthodox and don't necessarily agree with exactly what 'orthodoxy' teaches.
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« Reply #309 on: January 18, 2012, 09:13:57 AM »


With out any sarcasm or hidden meaning, I really don't follow what you are talking about.
Why am i not surprised?

Can you be clearer or ask a question?
Yes probably.

I laid out what appears to me to be the Protestant method. You
Me?

take passages that could mean any number of things. You
I do? Where have i done this?

then claim to know it's one true meaning,
Where have i quoted a passage of scripture and claimed it only had one meaning?

the one that fits your agenda.
This, is precisely my point.

It's all up to you and your personal interpretation.
Where have i not listened to others' explanations and interpretations? I think you will find i've asked for others' views and definitions to assist my process on several occasions Marc.

On the  other hand we use Holy Tradition which asks a very simple question; How has this passage been understood throughout the Church over a very long period of time? If there has been a consistent reading, we then don't go further with our own personal spin.

It think that is a cogent analysis.
LOL! Only when spelling cogent, E_R_R_O_N_E_O_U_S.

Sorry if it makes you not like me. I'll live.
Again, where have i said i dislike you? Completely inaccurate once again, i think what i actually said was, i dislike your posts.

I thought you were a Protestant. My error.

Once again. The Protestant method is to cherry pick scriptures that fit their self made views. Passages often can mean several different things. They pick the meaning that fits their own ideas. They reject Holy Tradition so it's every man for himself.

If you want to personalize this be my guest but I meant it as a General criticism

Thats the thing.. If someone comes on here without 'orthodox' thinking or understanding, they are immediately looked upon as being 'protestant', with set 'methods' and then treated accordingly.
What evidence do you have that this is so?

It might be better to just treat people as people rather than 'protestants' or 'evangelicals' just because they don't sound orthodox and don't necessarily agree with exactly what 'orthodoxy' teaches.
Do you have any idea what Orthodoxy does teach? ISTM you might actually do well to follow your own advice.
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« Reply #310 on: January 18, 2012, 10:29:07 AM »

Quote
Thats the thing.. If someone comes on here without 'orthodox' thinking or understanding, they are immediately looked upon as being 'protestant', with set 'methods' and then treated accordingly. It might be better to just treat people as people rather than 'protestants' or 'evangelicals' just because they don't sound orthodox and don't necessarily agree with exactly what 'orthodoxy' teaches
That is simply not true. We dont call Roman Catholics protestants; and they dont share Orthodox beliefs on many things. However, when you espouse ideas and beliefs that protestantism shares (not to mention your name on this forum is the crux of evangelical protestantism) what do you want us to think/say?

PP
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« Reply #311 on: January 18, 2012, 10:40:51 AM »

Get down off your high horse and open your eyes Peter! Goodness, are you ignorant!! I came onto this site without any idea what 'orthodox' teaching was. I made that clear. Thats why I came here. To ask questions and to learn! Some here have been great in sharing their understandings with me. Yet I was kicked off threads and relegated forcefully to this section because you and those other moderators quickly assumed I was protestant. I now realise it was because I had my own interpretation of what the bible said - and before you try and shoot me down for personal interpretation, I was asking questions! I was not instructing anyone. I made it clear I only got my understandings from the bible. I never said I got it from Luther or any other so called 'protestant' even though you insisted I did!

Where else do you expect any enquirer into christianity get their ideas from? Do you think people out there in the world like me say 'hmmm I'm interested in christianity, I'll head down to my local one true and holy orthodox church?'. Don't be ridiculous! There isn't an orthodox church within 300km from where I live, so what does one do? I go and pick up a bible and read it!

I read the bible without any outside influence from anyone, yet with a genuine interest in God! I might be wrong in all of the things I have interpreted, I'm sure you'd agree with that, you hypocrite, but if one is interested in Christianity, the first place to go is the bible! Do you think God will strike a man down for wanting to know about Him and reading a bible? Do you think God will judge a man for trying to find truth in the bible? Every time I go into a hotel, its the gideons who put the bible in the draw with a message of Jesus in there.. I've never seen a booklet with an invitation into the one holy and apostolic orthodox catholic whatever you want to call it in there. But, those gideons are just protestant heretic fools aren't they! How dare they put bibles out for people to read... Ooohh, think of all the heresy!! You jackass!

If one, who like me, having no idea about Jesus Christ or Christianity wanted to find the truth, how would we know which church we would find it in? The orthodox church? the catholic church? the protestant church? Too many choices for someone who is not as enlightened (or blinded really) as your ignorant self?

Your'e no example of the truth. Your'e no different to muslims and atheists. Your'e ignorant of those who are truly interested in salvation, and you think you are any reflection of Christ, and it is no wonder He is hated all over the world! I really do pray you come to the knowledge of the truth one day and think about the bigot that you are!

Oh and my name is Tim, for all of you out there who fantasize about this fictional Alfred character!

You are being warned (duration: 99 days) for the multiple ad hominem attacks in this post and two others in this thread.  You are certainly permitted to disagree with someone's position, or to characterize their behavior, but you are never permitted to attack their person.

If you feel this warning is in error, please contact via PM (using the "My Messages" link near the top of the screen) Fr. Chris, the forum administrator.

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« Reply #312 on: January 18, 2012, 10:44:13 AM »

Quote
Thats the thing.. If someone comes on here without 'orthodox' thinking or understanding, they are immediately looked upon as being 'protestant', with set 'methods' and then treated accordingly. It might be better to just treat people as people rather than 'protestants' or 'evangelicals' just because they don't sound orthodox and don't necessarily agree with exactly what 'orthodoxy' teaches
That is simply not true. We dont call Roman Catholics protestants; and they dont share Orthodox beliefs on many things. However, when you espouse ideas and beliefs that protestantism shares (not to mention your name on this forum is the crux of evangelical protestantism) what do you want us to think/say?

PP

Here we go! Another bright spark! What grade are you in? "Youre name on this forum is the crux of evangelical protestantism"! I could care less!!! It is written in Ephesians 2! I want you to know, I READ IT IN THE BIBLE!

You are being warned (duration: 99 days) for the multiple ad hominem attacks in this post and two others in this thread.  You are certainly permitted to disagree with someone's position, or to characterize their behavior, but you are never permitted to attack their person.

If you feel this warning is in error, please contact via PM (using the "My Messages" link near the top of the screen) Fr. Chris, the forum administrator.

- Fr. George, Global Mod
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« Reply #313 on: January 18, 2012, 10:45:58 AM »

And yes. it would seem that ideas and beliefs from 'evangelical protestantism' COME FROM THE BIBLE! maybe thats why I sound like one!
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« Reply #314 on: January 18, 2012, 11:02:40 AM »

Quote
Where else do you expect any enquirer into christianity get their ideas from?

Up until the invention of the printing press enquirers went to the Church, becoming disciples, and didn't spend hours trying to guess what is said in scripture, they were taught and entered into a new life.
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