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« Reply #180 on: January 13, 2012, 05:31:25 PM »

**could not modify**

I do find it ironic that those who state Bible alone, but then pick and choose what is to be taken literally and what is not.


PP

One of the things that always puzzles me is that there appears to be no consistent hermaneutic at work. It always seems to come down to "it's symbolic because I say it is."
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« Reply #181 on: January 13, 2012, 05:33:46 PM »

There is another serious problem for those who fail to recognise Jesus analogy. They must realize that after they have consumed the physical body of Christ, it then decomposes during the digestive cycle. This goes against God’s promise to never let His Holy Son see decay (Acts 2:27).

In verse 63, Jesus asked the disciples that murmured, "Doth this offend you? It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth (gives life); THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life." He told them plainly that he was not talking literally. He said, "...the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT." He also told them here that the physical flesh profits NOTHING! The heretical doctrine of transubstantiation and the eucharist is a direct contradiction to the word of God for it says that this supposedly transubstantiated bread does profit.

I've never seen an adequate response to these points at all BGTF.
A question for you and BGTF both: Your dichotomy between spirit and flesh within the Person of Jesus Christ, where do you find it in the Bible?

PETER! This is why i feel i rarely get a sensible straight answer to bible verses that are there right in front of our eyes. It's not good to deflect giving an answer by asking a question or voicing a criticism. If someone asks you to give a reasonable response to a few verses of scripture then that is precisely what they need. To do anything less is tantamount to giving someone a snake when they have asked for bread!
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« Reply #182 on: January 13, 2012, 05:36:32 PM »

**could not modify**

I do find it ironic that those who state Bible alone, but then pick and choose what is to be taken literally and what is not.


PP

One of the things that always puzzles me is that there appears to be no consistent hermaneutic at work. It always seems to come down to "it's symbolic because I say it is."

I beleive BGTF and myself have explained exactly why this is practiced as a symbolic representation of a spiritual truth. Scripture seems to indicate it.


NB. In answer to your other question, no i didn't mean to imply the incarnation was not necessary, sorry.
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« Reply #183 on: January 13, 2012, 05:40:33 PM »

**could not modify**

I do find it ironic that those who state Bible alone, but then pick and choose what is to be taken literally and what is not.


PP

One of the things that always puzzles me is that there appears to be no consistent hermaneutic at work. It always seems to come down to "it's symbolic because I say it is."

I beleive BGTF and myself have explained exactly why this is practiced as a symbolic representation of a spiritual truth. Scripture seems to indicate it.


NB. In answer to your other question, no i didn't mean to imply the incarnation was not necessary, sorry.
Scripture in no way indicates that the Eucharist was symbolic. Please provide proof from scripture that it was symbolic. Please tell me why, when so many left Christ after He spoke about his body and blood, he did not say, "wait!" "it was symbolic!"

Also, if the Eucharist was symbolic, why did people who were trained by the Apostoles themselves also say it was literal?

You cant get any more literal then "This IS my body."

PP
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« Reply #184 on: January 13, 2012, 05:43:12 PM »

**cant modify, sorry**

Also, be careful of this scholastic stuff, because you'll eventually coe to something ridiculous like:

"Jesus was human, therefore had 46 chromosomes...he got 23 from Mary so God DID have sex with Mary! He had to get the other 23 from God!"

Be careful.

PP
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« Reply #185 on: January 13, 2012, 05:46:44 PM »

**cant modify, sorry**

Also, be careful of this scholastic stuff, because you'll eventually coe to something ridiculous like:

"Jesus was human, therefore had 46 chromosomes...he got 23 from Mary so God DID have sex with Mary! He had to get the other 23 from God!"

Be careful.

PP

Wait a minute! Where did he get...  . .  Tongue
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« Reply #186 on: January 13, 2012, 05:48:12 PM »

**cant modify, sorry**

Also, be careful of this scholastic stuff, because you'll eventually coe to something ridiculous like:

"Jesus was human, therefore had 46 chromosomes...he got 23 from Mary so God DID have sex with Mary! He had to get the other 23 from God!"

Be careful.

PP


Wait a minute! Where did he get...  . .  Tongue
*sigh* so it begins Smiley

PP
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« Reply #187 on: January 13, 2012, 05:50:14 PM »

When trying to understand the eucharist - as it is called in the orthodox and catholic churches, we need to continue reading past verse 58 to see what is really meant here.. There appears to be a gross misunderstanding on the disciples behalf resulting in them 'walking no longer with Him'.(v66.)

I think the confusion began right here and is written in John 6.

John 6:59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Now the Bible tells us that His Words are what we live on. Matthew 4:4 - But he(Jesus)answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Unfortunately, it has been misunderstood from the time of John 6. But these verses say that someone who does not truly BELIEVE Christ, can not understand spiritual things.

"For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.. " Disciples - betrayed Jesus. Disciples, misunderstood Jesus. That may sound disrespectful to some, but I mean no disrespect. I'm just trying to state the facts.


I agree with you about the Orthodox/Catholic misunderstanding of the verses and i would add that though scripture says that we live on every word, it doesn't say that's all that sustains us.

However, if we agree that they have misunderstood the bread and the wine, surely in the many years before the reformation, we would have to agree then that the gates of hell did prevail against the church and suffered the entire church to believe 'another gospel'? That's the claim of Orthodoxy anyway.
If nobody believes in Christ, then yes the gates of Hell have triumphed. I don't see how that verse can be made to say anything else.

Furthermore, if you do recognize that nobody believed in a symbolic Eucharist prior to the Reformation, why do you believe in it? Surely going against the unanimous known witness of the church for 1500 years is not a good idea, even if you are right about what's at stake here a la' Matthew 16.

As i've been frequently reminded, biblical verses might not just mean one thing, they can mean many things.

I believe that there was always a remnant of people who believed correctly within the church as it gradually went off course and that remnant finally shook off most of the religious trappings that had distracted and stifled her for years. First when Rome made the break and finally when the Reformation occurred.
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« Reply #188 on: January 13, 2012, 05:58:43 PM »

Clearly, this 'seems' is an opinion we do not share.  In the case of the Eucharist, even Luther did not believe in this symbolical notion.

The fact that this concept of symbol as you are using it is not present in the Scriptures themselves indicates that it is not a Scriptural concept.

Nowhere does God say 'This is...' and have it not be so.  Jesus Christ is the Son of God.  For Him to say such words is pretty serious, don't you agree?



I beleive BGTF and myself have explained exactly why this is practiced as a symbolic representation of a spiritual truth. Scripture seems to indicate it.

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« Reply #189 on: January 13, 2012, 05:58:55 PM »

There is another serious problem for those who fail to recognise Jesus analogy. They must realize that after they have consumed the physical body of Christ, it then decomposes during the digestive cycle. This goes against God’s promise to never let His Holy Son see decay (Acts 2:27).

In verse 63, Jesus asked the disciples that murmured, "Doth this offend you? It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth (gives life); THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life." He told them plainly that he was not talking literally. He said, "...the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT." He also told them here that the physical flesh profits NOTHING! The heretical doctrine of transubstantiation and the eucharist is a direct contradiction to the word of God for it says that this supposedly transubstantiated bread does profit.

I've never seen an adequate response to these points at all BGTF.
A question for you and BGTF both: Your dichotomy between spirit and flesh within the Person of Jesus Christ, where do you find it in the Bible?

PETER! This is why i feel i rarely get a sensible straight answer to bible verses that are there right in front of our eyes. It's not good to deflect giving an answer by asking a question or voicing a criticism. If someone asks you to give a reasonable response to a few verses of scripture then that is precisely what they need. To do anything less is tantamount to giving someone a snake when they have asked for bread!

Or giving you bread when you asked for a snake. Wink
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« Reply #190 on: January 13, 2012, 06:01:19 PM »

Quote
As i've been frequently reminded, biblical verses might not just mean one thing, they can mean many things.

I believe that there was always a remnant of people who believed correctly within the church as it gradually went off course and that remnant finally shook off most of the religious trappings that had distracted and stifled her for years. First when Rome made the break and finally when the Reformation occurred
So in other words, there is no proof to back up your claim. I suggest you can go with the simpler answer. The Church never left. People left the Church.

PP
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« Reply #191 on: January 13, 2012, 06:01:46 PM »

And yet we are redeemed by the blood of Jesus. If "the flesh profits nothing" means what you claim it to mean here then Christ coming and suffering in the flesh is entirely pointless.

The divinized, resurrected flesh of Christ does not digest and it is not eliminated. It is consumed in a miraculous way according to Orthodoxy. In the same way Jesus was able to appear in locked rooms and to hide his appearance and be lifted into the heavens, so this also is possible with God.

When it comes to the difficult answers, it's a "mystery".
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Of course it is possible, all things are possible with God. You can't say just because there are accounts of miracles that have happened in scripture, that it provides an answer for what's going on in the Eucharist. That's just guessing.
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« Reply #192 on: January 13, 2012, 06:03:41 PM »

And yet we are redeemed by the blood of Jesus. If "the flesh profits nothing" means what you claim it to mean here then Christ coming and suffering in the flesh is entirely pointless.

The divinized, resurrected flesh of Christ does not digest and it is not eliminated. It is consumed in a miraculous way according to Orthodoxy. In the same way Jesus was able to appear in locked rooms and to hide his appearance and be lifted into the heavens, so this also is possible with God.

When it comes to the difficult answers, it's a "mystery".

Of course it is possible, all things are possible with God. You can't say just because there are accounts of miracles that have happened in scripture, that it provides an answer for what's going on in the Eucharist. That's just guessing.

No guesses, Christ said it is his body and blood, so did the apostoles, so did those who learned at the apostoles feet, all the way through history to the present day.

The burden of proof is on those who say that the Churc hhas been wrong since the beginning. A burden that has never been satisfied.

PP
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« Reply #193 on: January 13, 2012, 06:07:34 PM »

Christ said "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.", and here are the wods that are spirit and life - "For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed." That word for "indeed" is the same word we use at Easter to describe the reality of Christ's resurrection. Also Christ changes the word for "eat" in the middle of this particular discourse. He starts out using word typically used throughout the NT and then switches to a word that literally means to make a crunching sound as you chew and is used outside of this passage only in Matt 24:38 - "For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking". and John 13:18 - "He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me" and is used by Christ in John 6 only when referring to eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood and only after "The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying How can this man give us his flesh to eat".

If Christ's words are life, then these are His words in the immediate context of that passage "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.". He didn't save the world by giving a series of sermons or teaching philosophy, He saved the world by giving Himself to be (bodily) crucified and (bodily) raised from the dead.
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« Reply #194 on: January 13, 2012, 06:08:15 PM »

There is another serious problem for those who fail to recognise Jesus analogy. They must realize that after they have consumed the physical body of Christ, it then decomposes during the digestive cycle. This goes against God’s promise to never let His Holy Son see decay (Acts 2:27).

In verse 63, Jesus asked the disciples that murmured, "Doth this offend you? It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth (gives life); THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life." He told them plainly that he was not talking literally. He said, "...the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT." He also told them here that the physical flesh profits NOTHING! The heretical doctrine of transubstantiation and the eucharist is a direct contradiction to the word of God for it says that this supposedly transubstantiated bread does profit.

I've never seen an adequate response to these points at all BGTF.
A question for you and BGTF both: Your dichotomy between spirit and flesh within the Person of Jesus Christ, where do you find it in the Bible?

PETER! This is why i feel i rarely get a sensible straight answer to bible verses that are there right in front of our eyes. It's not good to deflect giving an answer by asking a question or voicing a criticism. If someone asks you to give a reasonable response to a few verses of scripture then that is precisely what they need. To do anything less is tantamount to giving someone a snake when they have asked for bread!

Or giving you bread when you asked for a snake. Wink

Don't be ridiculous! Why would anyone ask for a snake. If you're saying that because you feel i'm being insincere then don't respond to my posts unless you have something official to say. It's really that simple Wink
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« Reply #195 on: January 13, 2012, 06:09:31 PM »

When trying to understand the eucharist - as it is called in the orthodox and catholic churches, we need to continue reading past verse 58 to see what is really meant here.. There appears to be a gross misunderstanding on the disciples behalf resulting in them 'walking no longer with Him'.(v66.)

I think the confusion began right here and is written in John 6.

John 6:59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Now the Bible tells us that His Words are what we live on. Matthew 4:4 - But he(Jesus)answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Unfortunately, it has been misunderstood from the time of John 6. But these verses say that someone who does not truly BELIEVE Christ, can not understand spiritual things.

"For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.. " Disciples - betrayed Jesus. Disciples, misunderstood Jesus. That may sound disrespectful to some, but I mean no disrespect. I'm just trying to state the facts.


I agree with you about the Orthodox/Catholic misunderstanding of the verses and i would add that though scripture says that we live on every word, it doesn't say that's all that sustains us.

However, if we agree that they have misunderstood the bread and the wine, surely in the many years before the reformation, we would have to agree then that the gates of hell did prevail against the church and suffered the entire church to believe 'another gospel'? That's the claim of Orthodoxy anyway.
If nobody believes in Christ, then yes the gates of Hell have triumphed. I don't see how that verse can be made to say anything else.

Furthermore, if you do recognize that nobody believed in a symbolic Eucharist prior to the Reformation, why do you believe in it? Surely going against the unanimous known witness of the church for 1500 years is not a good idea, even if you are right about what's at stake here a la' Matthew 16.

As i've been frequently reminded, biblical verses might not just mean one thing, they can mean many things.
Sure, but not contradictory things. If there are no non-heretics left on earth, then isn't a church on earth either.
Quote
I believe that there was always a remnant of people who believed correctly within the church as it gradually went off course and that remnant finally shook off most of the religious trappings that had distracted and stifled her for years. First when Rome made the break and finally when the Reformation occurred.
Then show me their writings or the writings of a Church Father arguing against them. Show me a historian who agrees with you. I'm sorry, but arguments from silence are a sucker's game. The burden of proof is on the "protesters" to show us there is something amiss.
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« Reply #196 on: January 13, 2012, 06:12:40 PM »

And yet we are redeemed by the blood of Jesus. If "the flesh profits nothing" means what you claim it to mean here then Christ coming and suffering in the flesh is entirely pointless.

The divinized, resurrected flesh of Christ does not digest and it is not eliminated. It is consumed in a miraculous way according to Orthodoxy. In the same way Jesus was able to appear in locked rooms and to hide his appearance and be lifted into the heavens, so this also is possible with God.

When it comes to the difficult answers, it's a "mystery".

Of course it is possible, all things are possible with God. You can't say just because there are accounts of miracles that have happened in scripture, that it provides an answer for what's going on in the Eucharist. That's just guessing.
You guys are the ones saying the Real Presence is impossible, not us. Again, burden of proof. Do you also believe the Trinity is illogical like a Muslim?
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« Reply #197 on: January 13, 2012, 07:03:58 PM »

When trying to understand the eucharist - as it is called in the orthodox and catholic churches, we need to continue reading past verse 58 to see what is really meant here.. There appears to be a gross misunderstanding on the disciples behalf resulting in them 'walking no longer with Him'.(v66.)

I think the confusion began right here and is written in John 6.

John 6:59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Now the Bible tells us that His Words are what we live on. Matthew 4:4 - But he(Jesus)answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Unfortunately, it has been misunderstood from the time of John 6. But these verses say that someone who does not truly BELIEVE Christ, can not understand spiritual things.

"For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.. " Disciples - betrayed Jesus. Disciples, misunderstood Jesus. That may sound disrespectful to some, but I mean no disrespect. I'm just trying to state the facts.


I agree with you about the Orthodox/Catholic misunderstanding of the verses and i would add that though scripture says that we live on every word, it doesn't say that's all that sustains us.

However, if we agree that they have misunderstood the bread and the wine, surely in the many years before the reformation, we would have to agree then that the gates of hell did prevail against the church and suffered the entire church to believe 'another gospel'? That's the claim of Orthodoxy anyway.
If nobody believes in Christ, then yes the gates of Hell have triumphed. I don't see how that verse can be made to say anything else.

Furthermore, if you do recognize that nobody believed in a symbolic Eucharist prior to the Reformation, why do you believe in it? Surely going against the unanimous known witness of the church for 1500 years is not a good idea, even if you are right about what's at stake here a la' Matthew 16.

As i've been frequently reminded, biblical verses might not just mean one thing, they can mean many things.

I believe that there was always a remnant of people who believed correctly within the church as it gradually went off course and that remnant finally shook off most of the religious trappings that had distracted and stifled her for years. First when Rome made the break and finally when the Reformation occurred.

Scripture means what the Church says it means. The Pope of Rome and the Reformers are not in the Church and therefore come up with their own interpretations.

As for the Church going "off course," the Lord said that not even the gates of hell would prevail against it. A visible, unified, hierarchical Church, the Orthodox Church, was established by the Lord and His Holy Apostles, has lasted until today, and will last until the Lord returns.
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« Reply #198 on: January 13, 2012, 07:06:09 PM »

And yet we are redeemed by the blood of Jesus. If "the flesh profits nothing" means what you claim it to mean here then Christ coming and suffering in the flesh is entirely pointless.

The divinized, resurrected flesh of Christ does not digest and it is not eliminated. It is consumed in a miraculous way according to Orthodoxy. In the same way Jesus was able to appear in locked rooms and to hide his appearance and be lifted into the heavens, so this also is possible with God.

When it comes to the difficult answers, it's a "mystery".
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Of course it is possible, all things are possible with God. You can't say just because there are accounts of miracles that have happened in scripture, that it provides an answer for what's going on in the Eucharist. That's just guessing.

Was the Gospel According to St. John just a guess?


Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
(DRA)

John 6


 1After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is that of Tiberias.

    2And a great multitude followed him, because they saw the miracles which he did on them that were diseased.

    3Jesus therefore went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.

    4Now the pasch, the festival day of the Jews, was near at hand.

    5When Jesus therefore had lifted up his eyes, and seen that a very great multitude cometh to him, he said to Philip: Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?

    6And this he said to try him; for he himself knew what he would do.

    7Philip answered him: Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one may take a little.

    8One of his disciples, Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, saith to him:

    9There is a boy here that hath five barley loaves, and two fishes; but what are these among so many?

    10Then Jesus said: Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. The men therefore sat down, in number about five thousand.

    11And Jesus took the loaves: and when he had given thanks, he distributed to them that were set down. In like manner also of the fishes, as much as they would.

    12And when they were filled, he said to his disciples: Gather up the fragments that remain, lest they be lost.

    13They gathered up therefore, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above to them that had eaten.

    14Now those men, when they had seen what a miracle Jesus had done, said: This is of a truth the prophet, that is to come into the world.

    15Jesus therefore, when he knew that they would come to take him by force, and make him king, fled again into the mountain himself alone.

    16And when evening was come, his disciples went down to the sea.

    17And when they had gone up into a ship, they went over the sea to Capharnaum; and it was now dark, and Jesus was not come unto them.

    18And the sea arose, by reason of a great wind that blew.

    19When they had rowed therefore about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking upon the sea, and drawing nigh to the ship, and they were afraid.

    20But he saith to them: It is I; be not afraid.

    21They were willing therefore to take him into the ship; and presently the ship was at the land to which they were going.

    22The next day, the multitude that stood on the other side of the sea, saw that there was no other ship there but one, and that Jesus had not entered into the ship with his disciples, but that his disciples were gone away alone.

    23But other ships came in from Tiberias; nigh unto the place where they had eaten the bread, the Lord giving thanks.

    24When therefore the multitude saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they took shipping, and came to Capharnaum, seeking for Jesus.

    25And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him: Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

    26Jesus answered them, and said: Amen, amen I say to you, you seek me, not because you have seen miracles, but because you did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

    27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you. For him hath God, the Father, sealed.

    28They said therefore unto him: What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?

    29Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

    30They said therefore to him: What sign therefore dost thou shew, that we may see, and may believe thee? What dost thou work?

    31Our fathers did eat manna in the desert, as it is written: He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

    32Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

    33For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world.

    34They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread.

    35And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

    36But I said unto you, that you also have seen me, and you believe not.

    37All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.

    38Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    39Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.

    40And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.

    41The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven.

    42And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he, I came down from heaven?

    43Jesus therefore answered, and said to them: Murmur not among yourselves.

    44No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day.

    45It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me.

    46Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father.

    47Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life.

    48I am the bread of life.

    49Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead.

    50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

    51I am the living bread which came down from heaven.

    52If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

    53The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

    54Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

    55He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

    56For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

    57He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

    58As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

    59This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

    60These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

    61Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?

    62But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?

    63If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

    64It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.

    65But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.

    66And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.

    67After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him.

    68Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?

    69And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

    70And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

    71Jesus answered them: Have not I chosen you twelve; and one of you is a devil?

    72Now he meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon: for this same was about to betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve.
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« Reply #199 on: January 13, 2012, 07:06:40 PM »

And yet we are redeemed by the blood of Jesus. If "the flesh profits nothing" means what you claim it to mean here then Christ coming and suffering in the flesh is entirely pointless.

The divinized, resurrected flesh of Christ does not digest and it is not eliminated. It is consumed in a miraculous way according to Orthodoxy. In the same way Jesus was able to appear in locked rooms and to hide his appearance and be lifted into the heavens, so this also is possible with God.

When it comes to the difficult answers, it's a "mystery".

Of course it is possible, all things are possible with God. You can't say just because there are accounts of miracles that have happened in scripture, that it provides an answer for what's going on in the Eucharist. That's just guessing.

No guesses, Christ said it is his body and blood, so did the apostoles, so did those who learned at the apostoles feet, all the way through history to the present day.

The burden of proof is on those who say that the Churc hhas been wrong since the beginning. A burden that has never been satisfied.

PP

Let them commune and see what happens.

I knew a man who believed the Holy Things were not the actual Body and Blood of Christ. He was not Orthodox, but went to communion anyway. Later, he was nearly disemboweled, so to speak.
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« Reply #200 on: January 13, 2012, 07:12:35 PM »

And yet we are redeemed by the blood of Jesus. If "the flesh profits nothing" means what you claim it to mean here then Christ coming and suffering in the flesh is entirely pointless.

The divinized, resurrected flesh of Christ does not digest and it is not eliminated. It is consumed in a miraculous way according to Orthodoxy. In the same way Jesus was able to appear in locked rooms and to hide his appearance and be lifted into the heavens, so this also is possible with God.

When it comes to the difficult answers, it's a "mystery".

Of course it is possible, all things are possible with God. You can't say just because there are accounts of miracles that have happened in scripture, that it provides an answer for what's going on in the Eucharist. That's just guessing.

No guesses, Christ said it is his body and blood, so did the apostoles, so did those who learned at the apostoles feet, all the way through history to the present day.

The burden of proof is on those who say that the Churc hhas been wrong since the beginning. A burden that has never been satisfied.

PP

Let them commune and see what happens.

I knew a man who believed the Holy Things were not the actual Body and Blood of Christ. He was not Orthodox, but went to communion anyway. Later, he was nearly disemboweled, so to speak.
What is silly is when you look at the history of Eucharistic rejection. It was ad hominem at its finest. "The Roman Catholics say Communion is the body and blood. The Catholic church is the tool of evil, therefore.......etc."
There is NO evidence in scripture that the Eucharist is not the real presence. AIt is this whole buffet spirituality nonsense.

Quote
I believe that there was always a remnant of people who believed correctly within the church as it gradually went off course
Something I forgot to mention. This theory is the basis for something called landmarkism, which has been thoroughly and totally debunked.

PP
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« Reply #201 on: January 13, 2012, 07:18:30 PM »

It is worth nothing that the early Protestant churches, such as the Anglicans and Lutherans, believed in the Real Presence and had liturgical worship, and that it wasn't for hundreds of years after them that the neo-Protestant churches emerged with the belief in the symbolic presence only.
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« Reply #202 on: January 13, 2012, 07:28:40 PM »

It is worth nothing that the early Protestant churches, such as the Anglicans and Lutherans, believed in the Real Presence and had liturgical worship, and that it wasn't for hundreds of years after them that the neo-Protestant churches emerged with the belief in the symbolic presence only.
Ah, those pesky facts strike again......

PP
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« Reply #203 on: January 13, 2012, 07:29:25 PM »

There is another serious problem for those who fail to recognise Jesus analogy. They must realize that after they have consumed the physical body of Christ, it then decomposes during the digestive cycle. This goes against God’s promise to never let His Holy Son see decay (Acts 2:27).

In verse 63, Jesus asked the disciples that murmured, "Doth this offend you? It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth (gives life); THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life." He told them plainly that he was not talking literally. He said, "...the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT." He also told them here that the physical flesh profits NOTHING! The heretical doctrine of transubstantiation and the eucharist is a direct contradiction to the word of God for it says that this supposedly transubstantiated bread does profit.

I've never seen an adequate response to these points at all BGTF.
A question for you and BGTF both: Your dichotomy between spirit and flesh within the Person of Jesus Christ, where do you find it in the Bible?

PETER! This is why i feel i rarely get a sensible straight answer to bible verses that are there right in front of our eyes. It's not good to deflect giving an answer by asking a question or voicing a criticism. If someone asks you to give a reasonable response to a few verses of scripture then that is precisely what they need. To do anything less is tantamount to giving someone a snake when they have asked for bread!

Or giving you bread when you asked for a snake. Wink

Don't be ridiculous! Why would anyone ask for a snake. If you're saying that because you feel i'm being insincere then don't respond to my posts unless you have something official to say. It's really that simple Wink
I don't doubt your sincerity. I just think that maybe what you want from us isn't really what you need from us. Wink
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« Reply #204 on: January 13, 2012, 07:31:56 PM »

It is worth nothing that the early Protestant churches, such as the Anglicans and Lutherans, believed in the Real Presence and had liturgical worship, and that it wasn't for hundreds of years after them that the neo-Protestant churches emerged with the belief in the symbolic presence only.

Zwingli was a contemporary of Luther.
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« Reply #205 on: January 13, 2012, 07:35:10 PM »

Okay. I think more of the 'symbolic' presence churches popped up later on, though, such as the many independent denominations which came up in the 1700s and the 1800s. In America, for one, that was the 'revival' era. As far as I know, all of those types of churches are symbolic-presence only.

Thanks.
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« Reply #206 on: January 13, 2012, 07:47:53 PM »

It is worth nothing that the early Protestant churches, such as the Anglicans and Lutherans, believed in the Real Presence and had liturgical worship, and that it wasn't for hundreds of years after them that the neo-Protestant churches emerged with the belief in the symbolic presence only.

Zwingli was a contemporary of Luther.
Ah, forgot about him. I sit corrected.

PP
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« Reply #207 on: January 13, 2012, 07:51:49 PM »

It is worth nothing that the early Protestant churches, such as the Anglicans and Lutherans, believed in the Real Presence and had liturgical worship, and that it wasn't for hundreds of years after them that the neo-Protestant churches emerged with the belief in the symbolic presence only.

Zwingli was a contemporary of Luther.
Ah, forgot about him. I sit corrected.

PP

How very unOrthodox to sit... Smiley
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« Reply #208 on: January 13, 2012, 07:52:54 PM »

It is worth nothing that the early Protestant churches, such as the Anglicans and Lutherans, believed in the Real Presence and had liturgical worship, and that it wasn't for hundreds of years after them that the neo-Protestant churches emerged with the belief in the symbolic presence only.

Zwingli was a contemporary of Luther.
Ah, forgot about him. I sit corrected.

PP

How very unOrthodox to sit... Smiley
To me being at work, I cant help it...also, being WR...I also cant help it  laugh

PP
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« Reply #209 on: January 13, 2012, 08:03:16 PM »

Nowhere does Scripture say that bread and drink become the body and blood of Christ.

In Matthew 26:26 Christ broke real bread and said, "Take, eat; this is My body" while His body was yet physically before them, as they ate the bread that He handed them. It never says the bread changed into His flesh. Moreover, in Matthew 26:27-28 Jesus took the cup, gave thanks, and said,

Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now notice the next verse.

But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:29)

Jesus still called the drink "this fruit of the vine." It was still wine (or grape juice), after He gave it to the disciples.

Ignatius, Justin Martyr, all of the early fathers have understood this wrong. Even the disciples did. (John6:66 - its ironic actually, I know scripture was numbered later but it's interesting that verse happens to be John 666.) They all taught exactly what you believe. But remember the verses I posted up yesterday?

Isaiah 9:16 "For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed."
Matthew 15:14 "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."
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« Reply #210 on: January 13, 2012, 08:17:34 PM »

Nowhere, except the entire sixth chapter of the Gospel According to St. John. Don't make me post it twice.

I've had threads where I posted Jn. 1:1-15 five times, because a certain person  Roll Eyes didn't believe the Word of God was a Person before it was in a book. I can do that, if you insist...
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« Reply #211 on: January 13, 2012, 08:18:30 PM »

Nowhere does Scripture say that bread and drink become the body and blood of Christ.

In Matthew 26:26 Christ broke real bread and said, "Take, eat; this is My body" while His body was yet physically before them, as they ate the bread that He handed them. It never says the bread changed into His flesh. Moreover, in Matthew 26:27-28 Jesus took the cup, gave thanks, and said,

Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now notice the next verse.

But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:29)

Jesus still called the drink "this fruit of the vine." It was still wine (or grape juice), after He gave it to the disciples.

Ignatius, Justin Martyr, all of the early fathers have understood this wrong. Even the disciples did. (John6:66 - its ironic actually, I know scripture was numbered later but it's interesting that verse happens to be John 666.) They all taught exactly what you believe. But remember the verses I posted up yesterday?

Isaiah 9:16 "For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed."
Matthew 15:14 "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."


Wow, so the Apostles, and the Early Church Fathers all had it wrong, but you, 2,000 years later have it right.

Wow, you really must have the Holy Spirit in you that you can just come on a forum and educate us in the error of our ways. That is just amazing.

You know, other Protestants on this board have disagreed with us, but I've never heard one say the Apostles had it wrong.

Ma'am, you have one hell of a set of cojones. I tip my hat to you.

Obviously having a discussion with you about this topic would be fruitless, since neither scripture nor testament from the Early Church fathers can dissuade you otherwise.

Have a nice weekend!
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« Reply #212 on: January 13, 2012, 08:18:39 PM »

Quote from: ByGracethroughFaith

Ignatius, Justin Martyr, all of the early fathers have understood this wrong. Even the disciples did. (John6:66 - its ironic actually, I know scripture was numbered later but it's interesting that verse happens to be John 666.) They all taught exactly what you believe. But remember the verses I posted up yesterday?

Isaiah 9:16 "For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed."
Matthew 15:14 "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."


Alfred, what does that have to do with the subject?

Didn't we shoot down enough of your proof-texting games in previous threads?
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« Reply #213 on: January 13, 2012, 08:21:02 PM »

Nowhere does Scripture say that bread and drink become the body and blood of Christ.

In Matthew 26:26 Christ broke real bread and said, "Take, eat; this is My body" while His body was yet physically before them, as they ate the bread that He handed them. It never says the bread changed into His flesh.
That's illogical. At one time it was bread and wine. When Jesus presents it to His disciples He calls it His body and blood, which was always understood literally. If it was once one thing and then later was something else, it had to have become something it previously was not. Am I correct? The bread and wine had to have become His body and blood, and if it did so within Jesus hands, it had to have been Jesus who changed the bread and wine into His body and blood. Therefore, even simple logic refutes your claim.

Moreover, in Matthew 26:27-28 Jesus took the cup, gave thanks, and said,
Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now notice the next verse.

But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:29)

Jesus still called the drink "this fruit of the vine." It was still wine (or grape juice), after He gave it to the disciples.
Which we don't deny. Remember, we don't call the mystery of the Real Presence transubstantiation, nor do we speak of the mystery in Aristotelian terms of substance and accidents as do the Roman Catholics.

Ignatius, Justin Martyr, all of the early fathers have understood this wrong. Even the disciples did. (John6:66 - its ironic actually, I know scripture was numbered later but it's interesting that verse happens to be John 666.) They all taught exactly what you believe.
Okay, you're treading the road of blasphemy if you're going to tell us that even the Apostles got it wrong. How can you even call yourself a Christian believing that garbage?

But remember the verses I posted up yesterday?
I notice that you haven't yet answered my question. What makes your interpretation of those verses correct and the Fathers' interpretation incorrect?

Isaiah 9:16 "For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed."
Matthew 15:14 "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."
And how does this attempt to judge us through your selective use of Scripture even apply to us?
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« Reply #214 on: January 13, 2012, 08:27:00 PM »

Quote
But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:29)
Ah, like the true vine, of whom the Father is the gardner? (John 15:1)

Quote
But remember the verses I posted up yesterday?
Ah yes, the proof text that got obliterated?

Quote
Ignatius, Justin Martyr, all of the early fathers have understood this wrong. Even the disciples did
Well, who is to say they didnt have the Deity of Christ wrong? Or his ressurrection? What about Him being Messiah? See how silly you sound? Do you really think that Christ would voluntarily let 1500 years of Christians have something so basic, be so wrong leading them to damnation? Are you serious?

Quote
or grape juice
Welch didnt live in the 1st century there bud.


Quote
It never says the bread changed into His flesh
Besides the fact of Him saying unless you eat of my body hmmm?

Proof texting will get you nowhere. Your interpretation holds no weight.

EDIT: I find it even sillier that the communion is simply a representation, yet the world was literally created in 6 days.....buffet spirituality at its best.

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« Reply #215 on: January 13, 2012, 09:19:46 PM »

This argument makes no sense: on the one hand, you condemn even the early Church.  Then you talk about those who fell away from Christ... because of the Eucharist?

Well, the one thing we can agree upon: the Orthodox have faithfully followed the teachings of the Ancient Church.  This is the same Church that gave you the bible you are now wrongly interpreting!  You would think that the Church would have scrubbed out these bits that proved your point if we are so nefarious.  Instead, we do not because the argument you make is something you have read into the Scriptures and have not adequately defended.

The symbolism is not there.  He said 'This is...'  He is the Son of God.  How much power are in those words?  You cannot understand it because it is a Mystery.  Stop trying so hard to make the miracles of God so small?



Nowhere does Scripture say that bread and drink become the body and blood of Christ.

In Matthew 26:26 Christ broke real bread and said, "Take, eat; this is My body" while His body was yet physically before them, as they ate the bread that He handed them. It never says the bread changed into His flesh. Moreover, in Matthew 26:27-28 Jesus took the cup, gave thanks, and said,

Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now notice the next verse.

But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:29)

Jesus still called the drink "this fruit of the vine." It was still wine (or grape juice), after He gave it to the disciples.

Ignatius, Justin Martyr, all of the early fathers have understood this wrong. Even the disciples did. (John6:66 - its ironic actually, I know scripture was numbered later but it's interesting that verse happens to be John 666.) They all taught exactly what you believe. But remember the verses I posted up yesterday?

Isaiah 9:16 "For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed."
Matthew 15:14 "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

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« Reply #216 on: January 13, 2012, 11:26:24 PM »

It is funny that mere bread and wine should cause people to get sick and die.
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« Reply #217 on: January 13, 2012, 11:54:51 PM »

BTW, BGTF, you're really stretching the bounds of--should I say destroying?--your credibility when you make such an association between the Apostle John and the Beast of the Apocalypse by pointing out the 666 in John 6:66. Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously after that piece of work?
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« Reply #218 on: January 13, 2012, 11:55:10 PM »

Nowhere does Scripture say that bread and drink become the body and blood of Christ.

In Matthew 26:26 Christ broke real bread and said, "Take, eat; this is My body" while His body was yet physically before them, as they ate the bread that He handed them. It never says the bread changed into His flesh. Moreover, in Matthew 26:27-28 Jesus took the cup, gave thanks, and said,

Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now notice the next verse.

But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:29)

Jesus still called the drink "this fruit of the vine." It was still wine (or grape juice), after He gave it to the disciples.

Ignatius, Justin Martyr, all of the early fathers have understood this wrong. Even the disciples did. (John6:66 - its ironic actually, I know scripture was numbered later but it's interesting that verse happens to be John 666.) They all taught exactly what you believe. But remember the verses I posted up yesterday?

Isaiah 9:16 "For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed."
Matthew 15:14 "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

So the Apostolic Church, the Church which Paul says by the Spirit that we must stick to the traditions which they've handed down to us and to not receive anyone who holds any other doctrine, the Church that Jesus sent the Spirit to lead into all truth was wrong about something so fundamental as this?

I'm sorry but,


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« Reply #219 on: January 14, 2012, 12:59:54 AM »

Nowhere does Scripture say that bread and drink become the body and blood of Christ.

In Matthew 26:26 Christ broke real bread and said, "Take, eat; this is My body" while His body was yet physically before them, as they ate the bread that He handed them. It never says the bread changed into His flesh. Moreover, in Matthew 26:27-28 Jesus took the cup, gave thanks, and said,

Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now notice the next verse.

But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:29)

Jesus still called the drink "this fruit of the vine." It was still wine (or grape juice), after He gave it to the disciples.

Ignatius, Justin Martyr, all of the early fathers have understood this wrong. Even the disciples did. (John6:66 - its ironic actually, I know scripture was numbered later but it's interesting that verse happens to be John 666.) They all taught exactly what you believe. But remember the verses I posted up yesterday?

Isaiah 9:16 "For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed."
Matthew 15:14 "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

So the Apostolic Church, the Church which Paul says by the Spirit that we must stick to the traditions which they've handed down to us and to not receive anyone who holds any other doctrine, the Church that Jesus sent the Spirit to lead into all truth was wrong about something so fundamental as this?

I'm sorry but,


You. Are. Out. Of. Your. Mind.
Wait, Volnutt! Those are just the early Christians you've heard about, who got everything all wrong. You're totally neglecting the super-secret sect of Christians who understood all the things Apostles got wrong.

Somehow, they just forgot to write anything down (possibly because they knew that book larnin is of the devil).
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« Reply #220 on: January 14, 2012, 01:17:46 AM »

Well, outside of John 6 and the narratives of the last supper where Christ says "this is"...

1Cor 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless is it not the communion of the blood of Christ ? The bread which we break is it not the communion of the body of Christ ?

koinonia
from koinonos 2844; partnership, i.e. (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction:--(to) communicate(-ation), communion, (contri-)distribution, fellowship.

Scripture says what it says, and everywhere that it speaks of Communion, this is what it says. It doesn't say anything else anywhere.
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« Reply #221 on: January 14, 2012, 02:39:26 AM »

Can someone explain to me John 6:63?

"The words i have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

and

Matthew 26:29

Why would Jesus speak figuratively of his blood as the "fruit of the vine" if it was his literal blood?
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« Reply #222 on: January 14, 2012, 02:42:21 AM »

Do I believe that I am smarter, or somehow more intelligent, or better informed than the “Fathers” or the “Martyrs?”

No, because:
(1) I do not know, I rely on scripture
(2) in my reliance on Scripture, I am relying on what God has told me in 1 Corinthians 2:16 – I have the mind of Christ.

These things are not stated in my defense or as applying to me alone. These statements are true of any and all believers. A believer is one as defined in John 3:1‐18.
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« Reply #223 on: January 14, 2012, 02:54:55 AM »

Quote
Do I believe that I am smarter, or somehow more intelligent, or better informed than the “Fathers” or the “Martyrs?”

You have already answered your own question, and with crystal clarity, BGTF:

Quote
Ignatius, Justin Martyr, all of the early fathers have understood this wrong. Even the disciples did. (John6:66 - its ironic actually, I know scripture was numbered later but it's interesting that verse happens to be John 666.) They all taught exactly what you believe.[/size][/size][/size]


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« Reply #224 on: January 14, 2012, 03:04:31 AM »

Can someone also explain to me how the human nature of Christ, one of the two natures of Christ which are distinct, yet in union and not transferable to one another (or each would not remain two distinct and separate natures in union) can be physically omnipresent in the Eucharist? If that were so, then his human nature would not be 100% man as a man can only be present in one place at one time.


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