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ByGracethroughFaith
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« on: January 06, 2012, 02:29:57 AM »

The following thread started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41917.0.html  -PtA



Hi Peter,

Phillipians 2:10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure
.

How does this verse refer to or fit in with your idea of working out your salvation 'in community' as opposed to personally?

Is it possible to love your neighbour when you supposedly have no neighbour?

Who do you know that has no contact with anyone in the outside world as this above statement suggests? If they had no contact with anyone I assume they could then be without a neighbour? Even on the most remote farms in central Australia, were the nearest neighbour is 1500km's away, those people still see people and can still love their neighbour..

The only other case I can think of would be the orthodox monks.. They live in isolation don't they? Virtually?? Well can they not love their neighbour because they are isolated? Your argument makes no sense when I take into account the fact that you are a christian of 'orthodox' background and tradition.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 01:15:48 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2012, 03:18:15 AM »

Hi Peter,

Phillipians 2:10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure
.

How does this verse refer to or fit in with your idea of working out your salvation 'in community' as opposed to personally?
Why focus solely on this verse? Is this the only verse in the Bible that talks about salvation?

Is it possible to love your neighbour when you supposedly have no neighbour?

Who do you know that has no contact with anyone in the outside world as this above statement suggests? If they had no contact with anyone I assume they could then be without a neighbour? Even on the most remote farms in central Australia, were the nearest neighbour is 1500km's away, those people still see people and can still love their neighbour..

The only other case I can think of would be the orthodox monks.. They live in isolation don't they?
No. Not even the most "isolated" hermit truly lives in isolation. Are you aware that before a monk is permitted to live as a hermit, he must first show that he can live with others in a community, and then only after many years?

Virtually?? Well can they not love their neighbour because they are isolated? Your argument makes no sense when I take into account the fact that you are a christian of 'orthodox' background and tradition.
Why does it make no sense? Don't think so hard about what is simply an analogy.
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2012, 03:32:57 AM »

Hi Peter,

Phillipians 2:10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure
.

How does this verse refer to or fit in with your idea of working out your salvation 'in community' as opposed to personally?

Is it possible to love your neighbour when you supposedly have no neighbour?

Who do you know that has no contact with anyone in the outside world as this above statement suggests? If they had no contact with anyone I assume they could then be without a neighbour? Even on the most remote farms in central Australia, were the nearest neighbour is 1500km's away, those people still see people and can still love their neighbour..

The only other case I can think of would be the orthodox monks.. They live in isolation don't they? Virtually?? Well can they not love their neighbour because they are isolated? Your argument makes no sense when I take into account the fact that you are a christian of 'orthodox' background and tradition.


first off that has nothing to do with the invisible church, Secondly no one has neglected the fact that Theosis is a personal struggle, however as a community we celebrate the sacraments, Not to mention you cannot progress through much of Theosis without community. ALSO If you paid a little bit of attention you would notice they are called monastic communities. One monk is anothers neighbor...
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 03:35:08 AM by Seafra » Logged
ByGracethroughFaith
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2012, 04:15:32 AM »

first off that has nothing to do with the invisible church, Secondly no one has neglected the fact that Theosis is a personal struggle, however as a community we celebrate the sacraments, Not to mention you cannot progress through much of Theosis without community. ALSO If you paid a little bit of attention you would notice they are called monastic communities. One monk is anothers neighbor...

It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.

Pardon my lack of attention. Monks, monastics, however you would like to refer to them.. I'm not particularly familiar with them. They are people just like me and you. They choose to do whatever they like to do.

And Peter, do you defend yourself with the 'why just focus on this verse' routine? Ofcourse it is not the only verse that talks of Salvation. The church is the issue in this thread is it not? I used this verse to question a post written to suggest we need to work out our salvation in community - and I used it to compare what this person said and what the Word of God says about it..

In my first post did I not quote 1 Corinthians 3:16? “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?”

And

1 Corinthians 6:19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Can we focus on these verses also? Or do they also have nothing to do with the Church?



Fixed quote tags  -PtA
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 01:21:16 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2012, 04:43:37 AM »


It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.

Pardon my lack of attention. Monks, monastics, however you would like to refer to them.. I'm not particularly familiar with them. They are people just like me and you. They choose to do whatever they like to do.

Im sorry you aren't understanding... Orthodoxy is not based on single scriptures pulled out of no where. There are many verses that speak of the communal aspect of Christianity. Also my point was not between semantics of monks and monastics but the communal aspect a monastery is a monastic COMMUNITY ergo neighbors. In Protestantism you can pick out whatever verses you like and make them fit your mold... In the Traditional churches you don't reply on personal interpretation (which is actually less biblical that you would think) But the interpretations accepted and taught by the church. In this way we dont have obscurities like, as i said before, Mormons who have through their personal interpretation of scripture came tho their personal salvation. THIS is the purpose of the Church it IS a single body who was charged by Paul to safeguard the traditions he taught both by letter and word.
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2012, 07:10:32 AM »


Im sorry you aren't understanding... Orthodoxy is not based on single scriptures pulled out of no where. There are many verses that speak of the communal aspect of Christianity. Also my point was not between semantics of monks and monastics but the communal aspect a monastery is a monastic COMMUNITY ergo neighbors. In Protestantism you can pick out whatever verses you like and make them fit your mold... In the Traditional churches you don't reply on personal interpretation (which is actually less biblical that you would think) But the interpretations accepted and taught by the church. In this way we dont have obscurities like, as i said before, Mormons who have through their personal interpretation of scripture came tho their personal salvation. THIS is the purpose of the Church it IS a single body who was charged by Paul to safeguard the traditions he taught both by letter and word.
[/quote]

I do understand that orthodoxy is not based on single scriptures pulled out of no where.. Rarely, do proponents of orthodoxy refer to scripture to back up doctrine, but tradition, passed down from the apostles is more often referred to. Orthodoxy claims to be the 1 true church on this basis.

In protestantism, we, (and I don't think of myself as a 'protestant',) are guilty of misusing the Word of God. We have built doctrines on single scriptures. Calvinism is a great example of this. Pick out the ones that go for the doctrine and then ignore the ones that smash it to pieces. We often do like to make things fit into a mould, and that is precisely how we have erred. I've done it myself. It wasn't until I started reading the bible for what it actually says, in the Greek, that I began to see the Truth. We need to look at the scripture for what it says and 'hear the Word'. Not just read it. But the Word of God is sharp like a 2 edged sword, it is powerful.. It cuts. But it can be misused. But by no means does this mean that one should not read the bible. I thank the Lord for men like Wesley, Tyndale and Luther, who or got the bible translated into English and put on that press to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world..

Obviously, JW's are also a result of protestantism.

JW's rarely refer to scripture. But the teachings of their leader. Their 'teachings' take authority over the Word of God. Hence the cult that it is. They occasionally reference the scriptures that suit their beliefs and concentrate on the teachings of the leader.

The catholic church make the same claim as the orthodox.. Both denominations if you will, orthodoxy and roman catholicism can be traced back to the beginning of Christianity. Both have strong arguments for why they are the true church. But there is only 1 true church.

The oldest church writings we know of and that ever were are those written directly by the apostles themselves. Most important to us is the apostle Paul - his writings are imperative to understanding the mystery of Christ. Christ revealed Himself to Paul. Gave Him the mystery.. We have access to these writings.. They have been preserved and they tell us the truth. If were going to accept doctrines and ideas passed down from the earliest churches, through councils etc they need to be measured up against what the bible says.

After all, are they not the oldest writings? Are they not written by apostles? Then they deserve to have the final authority.
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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2012, 08:55:11 AM »

After all, are they not the oldest writings? Are they not written by apostles? Then they deserve to have the final authority.

In what manner is this authority to be interpreted, exercised, and enforced?

EDIT: I'm not saying that the Church exists solely for the purpose of providing authority in matters of interpretation and government, only that these things are a function that rightfully belongs to the Church, it's purpose is to be the Body of Christ founded on the day of Pentecost, which did and continues to have a visible structure and organization. I'm also not limiting salvation solely to members of any particular visible body, or claiming that every member of any particular visible body will be saved on the day of judgement.
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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2012, 09:36:30 AM »

This is a certain. The Word of God is Truth. So it is simple to interpret. It must first of all, be tested.. If one picks out a verse to build a doctrine, establish who it was written to. Was it written to Israel? Or was it written to gentiles? Are there verses that seem to say otherwise? If so, investigate them rather than sweeping them under the carpet because they don't agree with our current system of belief. The Word is to be 'rightly divided', as Paul describes to Timothy. There is a clear account in the bible of Gods dealings with man. In the old covenant He dealt with Israel only. Genesis 17. Gentiles were never a part of the covenant. Even when the prophesied Jewish messiah Jesus Christ came, He came to Israel to establish a new covenant with Israel. He did not come to gentiles.Matthew 15:24.. Gentiles at this point were strangers to the covenants of Promise.

But now, the famous words of the apostle Paul.. Apostle to the gentiles. He is given a revelation from Jesus Christ. One that was hidden from before the foundations of the earth, for if they had have known they would not have crucified the Christ. A message of salvation to the gentiles where salvation would be by grace, through the faith of Jesus Christ.. To provoke Israel to jealousy.

Israel has not been cast away, but through their fall, salvation is made available to us. Again the words of Paul - straight from Jesus.

If one was to open the bible having never read it before then we would likely be bamboozled with a lot of information. Obviously, there are 66 books in the bible, 70 in the orthodox canon isn't it? 73? in the catholic?? I'm not sure, but there are a lot of books.

Christians, who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and call on His name for their salvation are baptised in the Spirit. This may sound surprising, even heretical, but it is what the bible teaches. Members of the church make up the Body of Christ by a spiritual baptism.. The Spirit guides us into all truth. How? By His Word.. How? By apostles, pastors, teachers, prophets and evangelists whom He appoints.
 
Ephesians 4:11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ can not be destroyed. It is there. It will always remain If we want salvation, we ought look for it, and if we look for it we will find it. Turn from man, turn to God, turn to Truth, turn to Christ.
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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2012, 10:23:34 AM »


It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.



Saint Ilarion (Troitsky) quoted earlier points out:
Quote
To come to believe in Christ, to become a Christian - this meant uniting with the Church. This is repeatedly expressed in the book of the Acts of the Apostles, where we read that the Lord daily added the saved to the Church (cf. Acts 2:47; 5:13-14).
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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2012, 10:33:54 AM »


It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.



Saint Ilarion (Troitsky) quoted earlier points out:
Quote
To come to believe in Christ, to become a Christian - this meant uniting with the Church. This is repeatedly expressed in the book of the Acts of the Apostles, where we read that the Lord daily added the saved to the Church (cf. Acts 2:47; 5:13-14).

We don't gather in the visible church to be saved but becuase we are already saved.
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2012, 10:40:16 AM »

Was it written to Israel? Or was it written to gentiles?

We believe differently on this point. The gentiles are the wild olive branches that were grafted onto the tree. There is still only one tree.

Quote
Christians, who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and call on His name for their salvation are baptised in the Spirit. This may sound surprising,

I know what you're trying to say, and I've heard it before.

Quote
even heretical,

It is.

Quote
but it is what the bible teaches.

It is not.

Quote
Members of the church make up the Body of Christ by a spiritual baptism..

Members are baptized into the Body of Christ by those with the proper authority to baptize. Nobody just believes themselves into the Body of Christ. Not the 12 apostles, not the apostle Paul, not Cornelius, not the disciples of John the Baptist, etc.

Quote
The Spirit guides us into all truth. How? By His Word.. How? By apostles, pastors, teachers, prophets and evangelists whom He appoints.

How can someone know who is properly appointed by God to serve in any particular capacity in order to properly recognize and submit to any authority that may have been appointed by God?

Quote
Turn from man, turn to God, turn to Truth, turn to Christ.

I hope that looking for historical continuity and consistency in how God inspires and guides His people is not in opposition to turning to Christ.
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« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2012, 10:56:56 AM »

It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.

Pardon my lack of attention. Monks, monastics, however you would like to refer to them.. I'm not particularly familiar with them. They are people just like me and you. They choose to do whatever they like to do.

And Peter, do you defend yourself with the 'why just focus on this verse' routine? Ofcourse it is not the only verse that talks of Salvation. The church is the issue in this thread is it not? I used this verse to question a post written to suggest we need to work out our salvation in community - and I used it to compare what this person said and what the Word of God says about it..
I suggest that you're taking a verse of Scripture out of context in some vain attempt to prove me wrong, and you call my suggestion a routine, a ROUTINE! Roll Eyes You haven't even been here long enough to know what's routine for me.

In my first post did I not quote 1 Corinthians 3:16? “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?”

And

1 Corinthians 6:19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Can we focus on these verses also? Or do they also have nothing to do with the Church?
Let's not focus on any verses in particular, since you're using them to frame the conversation artificially--essentially, you're prooftexting.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 11:01:33 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2012, 11:00:27 AM »


It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.



Saint Ilarion (Troitsky) quoted earlier points out:
Quote
To come to believe in Christ, to become a Christian - this meant uniting with the Church. This is repeatedly expressed in the book of the Acts of the Apostles, where we read that the Lord daily added the saved to the Church (cf. Acts 2:47; 5:13-14).

We don't gather in the visible church to be saved but becuase we are already saved.
How do you define saved?
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2012, 11:05:17 AM »

I do understand that orthodoxy is not based on single scriptures pulled out of no where.. Rarely, do proponents of orthodoxy refer to scripture to back up doctrine, but tradition, passed down from the apostles is more often referred to. Orthodoxy claims to be the 1 true church on this basis.

In protestantism, we, (and I don't think of myself as a 'protestant',) are guilty of misusing the Word of God. We have built doctrines on single scriptures. Calvinism is a great example of this. Pick out the ones that go for the doctrine and then ignore the ones that smash it to pieces. We often do like to make things fit into a mould, and that is precisely how we have erred. I've done it myself. It wasn't until I started reading the bible for what it actually says, in the Greek, that I began to see the Truth. We need to look at the scripture for what it says and 'hear the Word'. Not just read it. But the Word of God is sharp like a 2 edged sword, it is powerful.. It cuts. But it can be misused. But by no means does this mean that one should not read the bible. I thank the Lord for men like Wesley, Tyndale and Luther, who or got the bible translated into English and put on that press to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world..

Obviously, JW's are also a result of protestantism.

JW's rarely refer to scripture. But the teachings of their leader. Their 'teachings' take authority over the Word of God. Hence the cult that it is. They occasionally reference the scriptures that suit their beliefs and concentrate on the teachings of the leader.

The catholic church make the same claim as the orthodox.. Both denominations if you will, orthodoxy and roman catholicism can be traced back to the beginning of Christianity. Both have strong arguments for why they are the true church. But there is only 1 true church.

The oldest church writings we know of and that ever were are those written directly by the apostles themselves. Most important to us is the apostle Paul - his writings are imperative to understanding the mystery of Christ. Christ revealed Himself to Paul. Gave Him the mystery.. We have access to these writings.. They have been preserved and they tell us the truth. If were going to accept doctrines and ideas passed down from the earliest churches, through councils etc they need to be measured up against what the bible says.

After all, are they not the oldest writings? Are they not written by apostles? Then they deserve to have the final authority.
Which came first, the Church or the New Testament?
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2012, 11:06:15 AM »


It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.



Saint Ilarion (Troitsky) quoted earlier points out:
Quote
To come to believe in Christ, to become a Christian - this meant uniting with the Church. This is repeatedly expressed in the book of the Acts of the Apostles, where we read that the Lord daily added the saved to the Church (cf. Acts 2:47; 5:13-14).

We don't gather in the visible church to be saved but becuase we are already saved.
How do you define saved?

I don't. The word defines it accurately enough but i daren't provide a source or i'll get accused of proof texting or firing bible bullits. Wink
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2012, 11:10:13 AM »


It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.



Saint Ilarion (Troitsky) quoted earlier points out:
Quote
To come to believe in Christ, to become a Christian - this meant uniting with the Church. This is repeatedly expressed in the book of the Acts of the Apostles, where we read that the Lord daily added the saved to the Church (cf. Acts 2:47; 5:13-14).

We don't gather in the visible church to be saved but becuase we are already saved.
How do you define saved?

I don't. The word defines it accurately enough but i daren't provide a source or i'll get accused of proof texting or firing bible bullits. Wink
You do realize I didn't ask you. Wink

Actually, you just showed me that you DO define saved. How do you know, though, that your definition is a complete, biblical understanding of salvation? How do we know if you won't tell us?
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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2012, 06:37:07 PM »


It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.



Saint Ilarion (Troitsky) quoted earlier points out:
Quote
To come to believe in Christ, to become a Christian - this meant uniting with the Church. This is repeatedly expressed in the book of the Acts of the Apostles, where we read that the Lord daily added the saved to the Church (cf. Acts 2:47; 5:13-14).

Hi, well the first thing wrong here is you are applying things found in the 2nd chapter of Acts through to the 5th chapter of Acts to us as though that is for us. Look at who is being addressed here.. Israel. Men of Israel. People of the dispersion. Both Jews, and proselyzed Jews. Who was at pentecost? Jews. Israel. It was a Jewish festival. Not a gentile festival. Gentiles were not welcome at this point.

It is not until Peter has the vision from the Lord of all of the unclean animals coming down on the sheet that God shows Peter that salvation will be made available to the gentiles. Peter had no idea of this.

Israel rejected their new covenant church. I think you'll find that Israel was counted in 'unbelief' by the middle of the book of Acts with the stoning of Steven. This is why Christ is seen 'STANDING' at the right hand of the throne.. Not sitting as He did when He ascended.

But because of Israels rejection, comes out of that, our, gentile, salvation.

To understand how the church works for us as gentiles, we need to read Pauls letters. The fullness of the gospel is revealed to Paul. We can't look at pentecost and imagine that the place was flowing full with Jews and gentiles.. What we clearly see is that pentecost at Jerusalem was filled with Jews, and proselyzed Jews - only.

If we try and mix all things in the 'new testament' up together and apply everything in it to ourselves without recognizing the very clear distinction between Gods dealings with Israel as a nation and His dealings with us - the rest of the world, then we will be left confused.

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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2012, 06:42:15 PM »

Mid Acts dispensationalism?  Cry
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« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2012, 07:55:52 PM »

Mid Acts dispensationalism?  Cry

No.
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« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2012, 08:02:16 PM »

I thought I might put a thought forward even though my education in this is not full. (part of why I enjoy reading on here so much. laugh ) It occurs to me that there is a good quote from 1 Corinthians 1:10 "Now I plead with you, Brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same Judgment."

The Invisible Church has no Divisions for it is full within Christ as he is the Head of that Church. But the Visible Church is spoken of here and we are told to keep no Contentions among us. (in Verse 11 of the same chapter) This could be called part of the main purpose of the Visible Church I think. The visible Church must be "The Pillar and Ground of the Truth." Which when we rely on our own personal Interpretations is very near impossible to achieve because this relies on Human Reasoning which is notoriously Fallible. And the reply, that the Holy Spirit will guide us is not very plausible as a reason because if he Guided each of us with such unerring accuracy there would BE no disagreements among those who stand as their own interpreters. This is how I see the need for the Visible Church, and Holy Tradition.

This is just my thought in the subject. :p

TD Andreis

We grow spiritually through reading, more importantly, hearing the Word. This is how the Spirit works. Through His Word.


Are you talking about the written Word, here?
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« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2012, 08:02:56 PM »


*Reads post again...*

Hi, well the first thing wrong here is you are applying things found in the 2nd chapter of Acts through to the 5th chapter of Acts to us as though that is for us. Look at who is being addressed here.. Israel. Men of Israel. People of the dispersion. Both Jews, and proselyzed Jews. Who was at pentecost? Jews. Israel. It was a Jewish festival. Not a gentile festival. Gentiles were not welcome at this point.

It is not until Peter has the vision from the Lord of all of the unclean animals coming down on the sheet that God shows Peter that salvation will be made available to the gentiles. Peter had no idea of this.

Israel rejected their new covenant church. I think you'll find that Israel was counted in 'unbelief' by the middle of the book of Acts with the stoning of Steven. This is why Christ is seen 'STANDING' at the right hand of the throne.. Not sitting as He did when He ascended.

But because of Israels rejection, comes out of that, our, gentile, salvation.

To understand how the church works for us as gentiles, we need to read Pauls letters. The fullness of the gospel is revealed to Paul. We can't look at pentecost and imagine that the place was flowing full with Jews and gentiles.. What we clearly see is that pentecost at Jerusalem was filled with Jews, and proselyzed Jews - only.

If we try and mix all things in the 'new testament' up together and apply everything in it to ourselves without recognizing the very clear distinction between Gods dealings with Israel as a nation and His dealings with us - the rest of the world, then we will be left confused.

1) Parts of NT not for us, they're for the Jews. Check.
2) At first Gentiles "were not welcome". Check.
2) Things changed around mid-acts. Check.

How is that not mid-Acts dispensationalism? That's like the very definition of the idea...  police
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« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2012, 08:07:35 PM »

I don't see anywhere in the scriptures the words mid acts dispensationalism. Therefore, I am not a mid acts dispensationalist. Just someone who recognises he is a filthy sinner, and called on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

If people want to put an 'ism' in there so be it. But I'm not interested in 'isms'. Thanks.
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« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2012, 11:13:56 PM »

I don't see anywhere in the scriptures the words mid acts dispensationalism. Therefore, I am not a mid acts dispensationalist. Just someone who recognises he is a filthy sinner, and called on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

If people want to put an 'ism' in there so be it. But I'm not interested in 'isms'. Thanks.
Are you one of those people who doesn't believe in the Trinity either because the word is not in the Bible?
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« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2012, 03:47:21 AM »

I don't see anywhere in the scriptures the words mid acts dispensationalism. Therefore, I am not a mid acts dispensationalist. Just someone who recognises he is a filthy sinner, and called on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

If people want to put an 'ism' in there so be it. But I'm not interested in 'isms'. Thanks.
Are you one of those people who doesn't believe in the Trinity either because the word is not in the Bible?

Very intelligent question. But no. I'm not 'one of those' - as you put it. I believe there is One God - Father Son and Holy Spirit. If you've read any of my posts you'll see that I'm a defender of the Word of God. The doctrine of the Father Son and Spirit is spilling out of the bible - so why would I not believe that? Normally, those that deny the trinity read writings or teachings outside of the bible. Eg. christadelphians, mormons, Jehovahs witnesses etc etc.

If you think these people get their teachings from the bible you better have a more thorough look at what they believe - and more importantly where they get it from.. I can assure you its not from the bible.

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« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2012, 03:51:35 AM »


It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.



Saint Ilarion (Troitsky) quoted earlier points out:
Quote
To come to believe in Christ, to become a Christian - this meant uniting with the Church. This is repeatedly expressed in the book of the Acts of the Apostles, where we read that the Lord daily added the saved to the Church (cf. Acts 2:47; 5:13-14).

Hi, well the first thing wrong here is you are applying things found in the 2nd chapter of Acts through to the 5th chapter of Acts to us as though that is for us. Look at who is being addressed here.. Israel. Men of Israel. People of the dispersion. Both Jews, and proselyzed Jews. Who was at pentecost? Jews. Israel. It was a Jewish festival. Not a gentile festival. Gentiles were not welcome at this point.
Did you forget about how Jesus preached to the Samaritans? And what of the OT prophecies that the good news would be preached to the Gentiles?
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« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2012, 03:54:06 AM »

I thought I might put a thought forward even though my education in this is not full. (part of why I enjoy reading on here so much. laugh ) It occurs to me that there is a good quote from 1 Corinthians 1:10 "Now I plead with you, Brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same Judgment."

The Invisible Church has no Divisions for it is full within Christ as he is the Head of that Church. But the Visible Church is spoken of here and we are told to keep no Contentions among us. (in Verse 11 of the same chapter) This could be called part of the main purpose of the Visible Church I think. The visible Church must be "The Pillar and Ground of the Truth." Which when we rely on our own personal Interpretations is very near impossible to achieve because this relies on Human Reasoning which is notoriously Fallible. And the reply, that the Holy Spirit will guide us is not very plausible as a reason because if he Guided each of us with such unerring accuracy there would BE no disagreements among those who stand as their own interpreters. This is how I see the need for the Visible Church, and Holy Tradition.

This is just my thought in the subject. :p

TD Andreis

I appreciate that. Thankyou. I'm in agreement with you. The bible actually says there 'should' be no division among us. However, there is.

We grow spiritually through reading, more importantly, hearing the Word. This is how the Spirit works. Through His Word.
How did the Holy Spirit speak before St. Paul wrote his Epistle to the Galatians, the first of the New Testament books ever written?
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« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2012, 04:21:52 AM »


It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.



Saint Ilarion (Troitsky) quoted earlier points out:
Quote
To come to believe in Christ, to become a Christian - this meant uniting with the Church. This is repeatedly expressed in the book of the Acts of the Apostles, where we read that the Lord daily added the saved to the Church (cf. Acts 2:47; 5:13-14).

Hi, well the first thing wrong here is you are applying things found in the 2nd chapter of Acts through to the 5th chapter of Acts to us as though that is for us. Look at who is being addressed here.. Israel. Men of Israel. People of the dispersion. Both Jews, and proselyzed Jews. Who was at pentecost? Jews. Israel. It was a Jewish festival. Not a gentile festival. Gentiles were not welcome at this point.
Did you forget about how Jesus preached to the Samaritans? And what of the OT prophecies that the good news would be preached to the Gentiles?

Yes. Isaiah in particular. But you've missed the fact that it didn't go down quite as Israel had planned. They thought their Messiah would come and they would rule with Him over us gentiles.. The gentiles could then be saved while they ruled with their Messiah.. This was what some thought.

But, for our sake, and according to the purpose of God to save gentiles,(this was planned from 'before the foundations of the earth' - or predestined to occur - the Body Of Christ was predestined not individuals as calvinists think)  they (as a nation) rejected and even crucified their Messiah.. Giving us an opportunity to be saved. Israel(the circumcision) were justified BY FAITH - through circumcision and works of the law, we (uncircumcision) are justified THROUGH faith. Or by the Faith of Jesus Christ.

Israel is no longer being dealt with as a 'nation'. Because now, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

And regarding the Samaritans - Matthew 10:5 -5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

The idea was not for the disciples to go to gentiles or the samaritans. They - the disciples, did not recognise Gods plan and purpose at this point. Jesus spoke to some samaritans in Sychar, the woman at the well, but they were isolated incidents, they were preached to by Jesus and the samaritan was persistent, showing her faith. This is why Jesus spoke to them, because of their child like faith in who He was.

John 4 is the story.. The disciples were a little shocked He was talking with the samaritan woman because Jews had nothing to do with them.

The mystery of Christ was not revealed until after Saul was converted.
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« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2012, 04:29:29 AM »


It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.



Saint Ilarion (Troitsky) quoted earlier points out:
Quote
To come to believe in Christ, to become a Christian - this meant uniting with the Church. This is repeatedly expressed in the book of the Acts of the Apostles, where we read that the Lord daily added the saved to the Church (cf. Acts 2:47; 5:13-14).

Hi, well the first thing wrong here is you are applying things found in the 2nd chapter of Acts through to the 5th chapter of Acts to us as though that is for us. Look at who is being addressed here.. Israel. Men of Israel. People of the dispersion. Both Jews, and proselyzed Jews. Who was at pentecost? Jews. Israel. It was a Jewish festival. Not a gentile festival. Gentiles were not welcome at this point.
Did you forget about how Jesus preached to the Samaritans? And what of the OT prophecies that the good news would be preached to the Gentiles?

Yes. Isaiah in particular. But you've missed the fact that it didn't go down quite as Israel had planned. They thought their Messiah would come and they would rule with Him over us gentiles.. The gentiles could then be saved while they ruled with their Messiah.. This was what some thought.

But, for our sake, and according to the purpose of God to save gentiles,(this was planned from 'before the foundations of the earth' - or predestined to occur - the Body Of Christ was predestined not individuals as calvinists think)  they (as a nation) rejected and even crucified their Messiah.. Giving us an opportunity to be saved. Israel(the circumcision) were justified BY FAITH - through circumcision and works of the law, we (uncircumcision) are justified THROUGH faith. Or by the Faith of Jesus Christ.

Israel is no longer being dealt with as a 'nation'. Because now, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

And regarding the Samaritans - Matthew 10:5 -5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

The idea was not for the disciples to go to gentiles or the samaritans. They - the disciples, did not recognise Gods plan and purpose at this point. Jesus spoke to some samaritans in Sychar, the woman at the well, but they were isolated incidents, they were preached to by Jesus and the samaritan was persistent, showing her faith. This is why Jesus spoke to them, because of their child like faith in who He was.

John 4 is the story.. The disciples were a little shocked He was talking with the samaritan woman because Jews had nothing to do with them.

The mystery of Christ was not revealed until after Saul was converted.
Or was it that it was revealed at or even before Pentecost, but St. Paul was the first apostle to really understand this? We do have the record of the Roman centurion whose child Jesus healed from a distance and whom Jesus praised for his great faith, which is an example of how Jesus revealed His plan for the Gentiles. We also have the Great Commission, where Jesus commands his disciples to preach the Gospel to all nations. How is this not a revelation of His plan for the Gentiles?
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« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2012, 06:58:43 AM »


It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.



Saint Ilarion (Troitsky) quoted earlier points out:
Quote
To come to believe in Christ, to become a Christian - this meant uniting with the Church. This is repeatedly expressed in the book of the Acts of the Apostles, where we read that the Lord daily added the saved to the Church (cf. Acts 2:47; 5:13-14).

Hi, well the first thing wrong here is you are applying things found in the 2nd chapter of Acts through to the 5th chapter of Acts to us as though that is for us. Look at who is being addressed here.. Israel. Men of Israel. People of the dispersion. Both Jews, and proselyzed Jews. Who was at pentecost? Jews. Israel. It was a Jewish festival. Not a gentile festival. Gentiles were not welcome at this point.
Did you forget about how Jesus preached to the Samaritans? And what of the OT prophecies that the good news would be preached to the Gentiles?

Yes. Isaiah in particular. But you've missed the fact that it didn't go down quite as Israel had planned. They thought their Messiah would come and they would rule with Him over us gentiles.. The gentiles could then be saved while they ruled with their Messiah.. This was what some thought.

But, for our sake, and according to the purpose of God to save gentiles,(this was planned from 'before the foundations of the earth' - or predestined to occur - the Body Of Christ was predestined not individuals as calvinists think)  they (as a nation) rejected and even crucified their Messiah.. Giving us an opportunity to be saved. Israel(the circumcision) were justified BY FAITH - through circumcision and works of the law, we (uncircumcision) are justified THROUGH faith. Or by the Faith of Jesus Christ.

Israel is no longer being dealt with as a 'nation'. Because now, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

And regarding the Samaritans - Matthew 10:5 -5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

The idea was not for the disciples to go to gentiles or the samaritans. They - the disciples, did not recognise Gods plan and purpose at this point. Jesus spoke to some samaritans in Sychar, the woman at the well, but they were isolated incidents, they were preached to by Jesus and the samaritan was persistent, showing her faith. This is why Jesus spoke to them, because of their child like faith in who He was.

John 4 is the story.. The disciples were a little shocked He was talking with the samaritan woman because Jews had nothing to do with them.

The mystery of Christ was not revealed until after Saul was converted.
Or was it that it was revealed at or even before Pentecost, but St. Paul was the first apostle to really understand this? We do have the record of the Roman centurion whose child Jesus healed from a distance and whom Jesus praised for his great faith, which is an example of how Jesus revealed His plan for the Gentiles. We also have the Great Commission, where Jesus commands his disciples to preach the Gospel to all nations. How is this not a revelation of His plan for the Gentiles?

Or was it that it was revealed before Paul? it has been in operation since the beginning of time. Nobody knew it, not fully at least, until it was revealed to Paul. Whether this just means the first to understand it well, the scriptures just don't seem to say that.

Now, the disciples were instructed to go and preach the gospel to all nations in Matthew 28 - the great commission. But what exactly are they preaching and what is going on? It is Peter preaching in Acts 2. He's constantly referring to the audience as 'ye men of Israel', 'ye men of judea'. He preaches baptism and repentance as a requirement for the remission of sins. At this point he also does not recognise gentiles are to become partakers of the covenant through our 'adoption'.. It isn't until God gives him a vision of a white sheet filled with what Peter knows to be (according to OT law) unclean animals. Peter and all of the Jews were, even after Christ died and ascended back to heaven, still practicing the law, observing sabbath days, pentecost was still taking place in Jerusalem among the Jews, circumcision was even still being taught. Gatherings in the temples. Everything as the law prescribed.

What does Paul - (taught by Jesus by revelation) have to say about this? Romans 6:14 14'For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace'.

We are no longer under law. Christ fulfilled the law. He lived under the law, taught the law, perfectly fulfilling it. There's nothing more we can do. This is not what Peter taught in Acts 2. Pauls letters take precedent as he was the last to receive direct  revelation. In his letters is revealed in full the 'manifold wisdom of God'. Paul corrected many including Peter because he was teaching jewish customs to gentiles.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

That faith is Jesus Christ.


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« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2012, 09:36:28 AM »

I don't see anywhere in the scriptures the words mid acts dispensationalism. Therefore, I am not a mid acts dispensationalist. Just someone who recognises he is a filthy sinner, and called on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

If people want to put an 'ism' in there so be it. But I'm not interested in 'isms'. Thanks.
Are you one of those people who doesn't believe in the Trinity either because the word is not in the Bible?

Very intelligent question. But no. I'm not 'one of those' - as you put it. I believe there is One God - Father Son and Holy Spirit. If you've read any of my posts you'll see that I'm a defender of the Word of God. The doctrine of the Father Son and Spirit is spilling out of the bible - so why would I not believe that? Normally, those that deny the trinity read writings or teachings outside of the bible. Eg. christadelphians, mormons, Jehovahs witnesses etc etc.

If you think these people get their teachings from the bible you better have a more thorough look at what they believe - and more importantly where they get it from.. I can assure you its not from the bible.


Just checking. In my experience people who pull the "that term isn't in the Bible" argument are either cultists or nuts.
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« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2012, 10:31:36 AM »

If you've read any of my posts you'll see that I'm a defender of the Word of God. The doctrine of the Father Son and Spirit is spilling out of the bible - so why would I not believe that? Normally, those that deny the trinity read writings or teachings outside of the bible. Eg. christadelphians, mormons, Jehovahs witnesses etc etc.

If you think these people get their teachings from the bible you better have a more thorough look at what they believe - and more importantly where they get it from.. I can assure you its not from the bible.


I'm not entering the basic issue of this thread, but I must point out that we've had a lot of recent discussion about "Word of God" vs "word of God". Yes, it is important - I think you'll find that the Orthodox members here would likely equate "Word of God" with Jesus Christ and "word of God" with the Holy Scriptures. I notice you write "bible" instead of the more usual "Bible". It would help us understand your perspective if you could be more exact in how you write these words. Things can get horribly confused and misunderstood on an internet forum.
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« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2012, 02:16:59 PM »


It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.



Saint Ilarion (Troitsky) quoted earlier points out:
Quote
To come to believe in Christ, to become a Christian - this meant uniting with the Church. This is repeatedly expressed in the book of the Acts of the Apostles, where we read that the Lord daily added the saved to the Church (cf. Acts 2:47; 5:13-14).

Hi, well the first thing wrong here is you are applying things found in the 2nd chapter of Acts through to the 5th chapter of Acts to us as though that is for us. Look at who is being addressed here.. Israel. Men of Israel. People of the dispersion. Both Jews, and proselyzed Jews. Who was at pentecost? Jews. Israel. It was a Jewish festival. Not a gentile festival. Gentiles were not welcome at this point.
Did you forget about how Jesus preached to the Samaritans? And what of the OT prophecies that the good news would be preached to the Gentiles?

Yes. Isaiah in particular. But you've missed the fact that it didn't go down quite as Israel had planned. They thought their Messiah would come and they would rule with Him over us gentiles.. The gentiles could then be saved while they ruled with their Messiah.. This was what some thought.

But, for our sake, and according to the purpose of God to save gentiles,(this was planned from 'before the foundations of the earth' - or predestined to occur - the Body Of Christ was predestined not individuals as calvinists think)  they (as a nation) rejected and even crucified their Messiah.. Giving us an opportunity to be saved. Israel(the circumcision) were justified BY FAITH - through circumcision and works of the law, we (uncircumcision) are justified THROUGH faith. Or by the Faith of Jesus Christ.

Israel is no longer being dealt with as a 'nation'. Because now, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

And regarding the Samaritans - Matthew 10:5 -5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

The idea was not for the disciples to go to gentiles or the samaritans. They - the disciples, did not recognise Gods plan and purpose at this point. Jesus spoke to some samaritans in Sychar, the woman at the well, but they were isolated incidents, they were preached to by Jesus and the samaritan was persistent, showing her faith. This is why Jesus spoke to them, because of their child like faith in who He was.

John 4 is the story.. The disciples were a little shocked He was talking with the samaritan woman because Jews had nothing to do with them.

The mystery of Christ was not revealed until after Saul was converted.
Or was it that it was revealed at or even before Pentecost, but St. Paul was the first apostle to really understand this? We do have the record of the Roman centurion whose child Jesus healed from a distance and whom Jesus praised for his great faith, which is an example of how Jesus revealed His plan for the Gentiles. We also have the Great Commission, where Jesus commands his disciples to preach the Gospel to all nations. How is this not a revelation of His plan for the Gentiles?

Or was it that it was revealed before Paul? it has been in operation since the beginning of time. Nobody knew it, not fully at least, until it was revealed to Paul. Whether this just means the first to understand it well, the scriptures just don't seem to say that.

Now, the disciples were instructed to go and preach the gospel to all nations in Matthew 28 - the great commission. But what exactly are they preaching and what is going on? It is Peter preaching in Acts 2. He's constantly referring to the audience as 'ye men of Israel', 'ye men of judea'. He preaches baptism and repentance as a requirement for the remission of sins. At this point he also does not recognise gentiles are to become partakers of the covenant through our 'adoption'.. It isn't until God gives him a vision of a white sheet filled with what Peter knows to be (according to OT law) unclean animals. Peter and all of the Jews were, even after Christ died and ascended back to heaven, still practicing the law, observing sabbath days, pentecost was still taking place in Jerusalem among the Jews, circumcision was even still being taught. Gatherings in the temples. Everything as the law prescribed.

What does Paul - (taught by Jesus by revelation) have to say about this? Romans 6:14 14'For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace'.

We are no longer under law. Christ fulfilled the law. He lived under the law, taught the law, perfectly fulfilling it. There's nothing more we can do. This is not what Peter taught in Acts 2. Pauls letters take precedent as he was the last to receive direct  revelation. In his letters is revealed in full the 'manifold wisdom of God'. Paul corrected many including Peter because he was teaching jewish customs to gentiles.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

That faith is Jesus Christ.
The problem, though, is that you seem to be concluding from these events that the only reason the Gospel has gone to the Gentiles at all is because the Jews rejected it. You seem to think also that something was revealed to Paul that wasn't revealed to the Twelve and that Paul therefore takes precedent over the Twelve. I reject this point of view.
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« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2012, 03:44:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Quote
We are no longer under law. Christ fulfilled the law. He lived under the law, taught the law, perfectly fulfilling it. There's nothing more we can do. This is not what Peter taught in Acts 2. Paul's letters take precedent as he was the last to receive direct  revelation. In his letters is revealed in full the 'manifold wisdom of God'. Paul corrected many including Peter because he was teaching Jewish customs to gentiles.

It wasn't that Peter or the Apostles were teaching Jewish customs to Gentiles, it was that the Apostles themselves were often continuing to publicly keep the Law and the Hebrew cultural traditions and diet, and this set a confusing example which seemed to contradict their words in Acts 2:36-42, Acts 5:29-42, Acts 11:1-18, Acts 13:38-48, Acts 15:1-30 (specifically v19-30).  What do we make of Acts 21:20-26 where Paul takes on the costs for redeeming four Nazarites at the Temple, who we can also assume were from the Church community? Also in 1 Corinthians 9:21-23 as you already quoted, Paul says he became "to those under the Law, as under the Law."  See the Apostles never explicitly forbid Jewish proselytes and neophytes from maintaining cultural aspects of the Law such as diet, dress, holidays, and Temple worship.  In the early Church the Temple still existed, and so we can be sure it was central to the Church life until its destruction and the subsequent dispersion of Jews, many who migrated to the growing Christian centers of Alexandria and Antioch/Damascus. The Church as a physical institution evolved out of the Dispersion just like the Synagogue.  The issue in Galatians 2:11-21 was over cultural etiquette

 more so than theology.  Paul was upset with Peter and James because they had "ate together with the nations yet when they [Jews] came shrank back and severed."  This was basically rude.  The Gentile converts to the Church were in many respects no different than any Jewish converts from a theological standpoint, which is precisely what Paul emphasizes in Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11.  Don't forget Romans 9 where he advises the Gentile converts to patient and respectful to the Jewish membership of the Church however.  This is also Peter's emphasis in 2 Peter 2:1-22 and 3:14-17, that folks in the Church follow the protocol, and that protocol included mutual fellowship between Jewish and Gentile converts alike, but with respect towards the Prophets and the Scriptures which were markedly Jewish in imagery, culture, and symbolism.  We are not legalistically under the Law, but that doesn't mean the Apostle's threw the Jewish baby out with the bathwater.  So much of the Church is distinctively first-century Jewish in thought, in architecture, in theology, in culture, in music, in symbolism and imagery, in dress, in diet, in liturgical prayer, again we are not Jews at all, and the Jews equally had to "convert" in the first century, but the Church is most definitely built upon the Jewish identity of the Apostles.  I am not into that Jewish Jesus cultish fad going on in mega-church America where evangelical Christians are wearing Talith prayer shawls and blowing the shofar at sundown, but clearly culturally and anthropologically speaking, the Church is very Jewish in its original identity, not necessarily the contemporary Jews, the split between us and the is about 1700-1800 years old.
Quote



I have to say I think if just reading and hearing were the case then historical facts would line up very differently. Why would people die in acts if the rituals were just that or symbols?  I think part of the measure here has to come from history. The apostles started a church, a physical one whilst being members of a spiritual church. Maybe I'm missing the point (as I think I may be) but it seems to me much of the debate here would be much simpler with a measuring stick grounded in history. Preferably secular history.

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« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2012, 03:49:41 PM »

If you've read any of my posts you'll see that I'm a defender of the Word of God. The doctrine of the Father Son and Spirit is spilling out of the bible - so why would I not believe that? Normally, those that deny the trinity read writings or teachings outside of the bible. Eg. christadelphians, mormons, Jehovahs witnesses etc etc.

If you think these people get their teachings from the bible you better have a more thorough look at what they believe - and more importantly where they get it from.. I can assure you its not from the bible.


I'm not entering the basic issue of this thread, but I must point out that we've had a lot of recent discussion about "Word of God" vs "word of God". Yes, it is important - I think you'll find that the Orthodox members here would likely equate "Word of God" with Jesus Christ and "word of God" with the Holy Scriptures.

So would some of the "heretics" as well  Wink
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« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2012, 06:51:18 PM »


It has everything to do with the church - and whether it is visible or invisible. Salvation is personal. No one attains salvation by being a part of a certain or particular 'group'. Many would have us all believe this but it is not so. Salvation is personal. We then commune with other believers all of the time.. Anywhere and everywhere.. Members of the Body of Christ. 24 hr/day, 7 day a week church.



Saint Ilarion (Troitsky) quoted earlier points out:
Quote
To come to believe in Christ, to become a Christian - this meant uniting with the Church. This is repeatedly expressed in the book of the Acts of the Apostles, where we read that the Lord daily added the saved to the Church (cf. Acts 2:47; 5:13-14).

Hi, well the first thing wrong here is you are applying things found in the 2nd chapter of Acts through to the 5th chapter of Acts to us as though that is for us. Look at who is being addressed here.. Israel. Men of Israel. People of the dispersion. Both Jews, and proselyzed Jews. Who was at pentecost? Jews. Israel. It was a Jewish festival. Not a gentile festival. Gentiles were not welcome at this point.
Did you forget about how Jesus preached to the Samaritans? And what of the OT prophecies that the good news would be preached to the Gentiles?

Yes. Isaiah in particular. But you've missed the fact that it didn't go down quite as Israel had planned. They thought their Messiah would come and they would rule with Him over us gentiles.. The gentiles could then be saved while they ruled with their Messiah.. This was what some thought.

But, for our sake, and according to the purpose of God to save gentiles,(this was planned from 'before the foundations of the earth' - or predestined to occur - the Body Of Christ was predestined not individuals as calvinists think)  they (as a nation) rejected and even crucified their Messiah.. Giving us an opportunity to be saved. Israel(the circumcision) were justified BY FAITH - through circumcision and works of the law, we (uncircumcision) are justified THROUGH faith. Or by the Faith of Jesus Christ.

Israel is no longer being dealt with as a 'nation'. Because now, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

And regarding the Samaritans - Matthew 10:5 -5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

The idea was not for the disciples to go to gentiles or the samaritans. They - the disciples, did not recognise Gods plan and purpose at this point. Jesus spoke to some samaritans in Sychar, the woman at the well, but they were isolated incidents, they were preached to by Jesus and the samaritan was persistent, showing her faith. This is why Jesus spoke to them, because of their child like faith in who He was.

John 4 is the story.. The disciples were a little shocked He was talking with the samaritan woman because Jews had nothing to do with them.

The mystery of Christ was not revealed until after Saul was converted.
Or was it that it was revealed at or even before Pentecost, but St. Paul was the first apostle to really understand this? We do have the record of the Roman centurion whose child Jesus healed from a distance and whom Jesus praised for his great faith, which is an example of how Jesus revealed His plan for the Gentiles. We also have the Great Commission, where Jesus commands his disciples to preach the Gospel to all nations. How is this not a revelation of His plan for the Gentiles?

Or was it that it was revealed before Paul? it has been in operation since the beginning of time. Nobody knew it, not fully at least, until it was revealed to Paul. Whether this just means the first to understand it well, the scriptures just don't seem to say that.

Now, the disciples were instructed to go and preach the gospel to all nations in Matthew 28 - the great commission. But what exactly are they preaching and what is going on? It is Peter preaching in Acts 2. He's constantly referring to the audience as 'ye men of Israel', 'ye men of judea'. He preaches baptism and repentance as a requirement for the remission of sins. At this point he also does not recognise gentiles are to become partakers of the covenant through our 'adoption'.. It isn't until God gives him a vision of a white sheet filled with what Peter knows to be (according to OT law) unclean animals. Peter and all of the Jews were, even after Christ died and ascended back to heaven, still practicing the law, observing sabbath days, pentecost was still taking place in Jerusalem among the Jews, circumcision was even still being taught. Gatherings in the temples. Everything as the law prescribed.

What does Paul - (taught by Jesus by revelation) have to say about this? Romans 6:14 14'For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace'.

We are no longer under law. Christ fulfilled the law. He lived under the law, taught the law, perfectly fulfilling it. There's nothing more we can do. This is not what Peter taught in Acts 2. Pauls letters take precedent as he was the last to receive direct  revelation. In his letters is revealed in full the 'manifold wisdom of God'. Paul corrected many including Peter because he was teaching jewish customs to gentiles.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

That faith is Jesus Christ.
The problem, though, is that you seem to be concluding from these events that the only reason the Gospel has gone to the Gentiles at all is because the Jews rejected it. You seem to think also that something was revealed to Paul that wasn't revealed to the Twelve and that Paul therefore takes precedent over the Twelve. I reject this point of view.

I seem to conclude that the only reason the gospel went to the gentiles is because the Jews rejected it? It was the plan of God from before the foundations of the earth! However God decided to reveal His plan is not up to any of us. Read Romans 11. Particularly verse 11 - I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?(Israel) God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

When I say Paul takes precedent, I am speaking regarding us - as gentiles.. His letters are particularly addressed to gentiles, he was the 'apostle to the gentiles'.. The minister to the uncircumcision. Peter wasn't. Nor were the others. Peter was a minister to the circumcision particularly. James also. The beginning of James book is addressed to the House of Israel. If it is addressed to the house of Israel specifically, can I ask why nearly all of us try and apply its doctrine to ourselves? Would it be good of me to open a bible, not knowing anything and turning to Leviticus and then trying to apply Levitical law to myself now? No. It was for Israel at a particular time in history. There has been further revelation since Leviticus was written and we need to read the scriptures accordingly.

The manifold wisdom of God, even though not properly revealed until the apostle Paul - has certainly been in play since the beginning. It was not something that God 'improved' or had a 'mind change'. It was always there. From Abraham through to us. It is by Grace we have always been saved. It is Paul who is given this message. No one before him. To him first is given the gospel of the grace of God.

24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Ephesians 3:1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

You have the free will to believe and reject what ever you like. If you can show me how the other disciples had the same deep revelation of the mystery of Christ - or the knowledge of the manifold wisdom of God the way Paul understood it and taught it - then I will also need to reject my own point of view.


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« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2012, 08:11:53 PM »

The problem, though, is that you seem to be concluding from these events that the only reason the Gospel has gone to the Gentiles at all is because the Jews rejected it. You seem to think also that something was revealed to Paul that wasn't revealed to the Twelve and that Paul therefore takes precedent over the Twelve. I reject this point of view.

I seem to conclude that the only reason the gospel went to the gentiles is because the Jews rejected it? It was the plan of God from before the foundations of the earth! However God decided to reveal His plan is not up to any of us. Read Romans 11. Particularly verse 11 - I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?(Israel) God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

When I say Paul takes precedent, I am speaking regarding us - as gentiles.. His letters are particularly addressed to gentiles, he was the 'apostle to the gentiles'.. The minister to the uncircumcision. Peter wasn't. Nor were the others. Peter was a minister to the circumcision particularly. James also. The beginning of James book is addressed to the House of Israel. If it is addressed to the house of Israel specifically, can I ask why nearly all of us try and apply its doctrine to ourselves? Would it be good of me to open a bible, not knowing anything and turning to Leviticus and then trying to apply Levitical law to myself now? No. It was for Israel at a particular time in history. There has been further revelation since Leviticus was written and we need to read the scriptures accordingly.
What the logic of your argument implies within the context of this debate, though, is that the call to join the Church applies only to the Jews, not to Gentiles, since this doctrine of the Church appears within the first five chapters of Acts, which you claim apply only to Jews. What of St. Paul's doctrine of the Church found in Chapter 4 of his Epistle to the Ephesians and throughout his First Epistle to the Corinthians? How do you read that?

The manifold wisdom of God, even though not properly revealed until the apostle Paul - has certainly been in play since the beginning. It was not something that God 'improved' or had a 'mind change'. It was always there. From Abraham through to us. It is by Grace we have always been saved. It is Paul who is given this message. No one before him. To him first is given the gospel of the grace of God.
What evidence do you have that it was to Paul that the Gospel was first revealed and that he wasn't merely the first to realize fully its import to the Gentiles? Do you discount Christ's teaching of the Twelve?

You have the free will to believe and reject what ever you like. If you can show me how the other disciples had the same deep revelation of the mystery of Christ - or the knowledge of the manifold wisdom of God the way Paul understood it and taught it - then I will also need to reject my own point of view.
Maybe you just need to open your eyes to the fact that you're setting Paul in opposition to the Twelve and making him to be superior. It seems to me that one Marcion did this back in the 2nd Century, though to a greater extent than you, and is now condemned as a heretic for the conclusions he drew as a result of his rejection of the Twelve. (In fact, his false teachings were one of the prime impetuses behind the Church's collection of the Apostolic writings into what we know today as the New Testament, since Marcion rejected all but the Gospel of Luke, the Acts of the Apostles, and St. Paul's epistles.) What, for instance, do you have to say about St. John, whose Gospel shows the deepest insight into the nature of Christ and even uses the Greek concept of the Logos to describe how Christ Jesus is God? Is his insight somehow to be discarded as inferior because it doesn't meet up to your exalted image of the Apostle Paul?
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« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2012, 08:19:51 PM »

Huh? Is BGTF saying Paul was the first Apostle?

Uh, there are a few people who would like a word with you.

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« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2012, 08:29:09 PM »

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
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« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2012, 12:02:31 AM »

Hi people.. Apologies, this is going to be a long one.. But I think it is imperative we understand the covenants before anything I'm trying to say here can become more clear. I ask that if you really are interested in what I'm saying, or really are convinced I am wrong, please read this carefully. Attached are 3 images. Charts 1-3. They are each referenced throughout this post.

In Jeremiah 31 it says,

“31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

This prophecy of Jeremiah tells us about a new covenant that the Lord is going to give unto the nation of Israel. Please notice again in verse 1,

“31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:”

Who is the Lord going to make this covenant with? He is going to make it with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, he is going to make it with the Jews which are also called the circumcision, the Israelites, the Hebrews.

Is he going to make this new covenant with the entire world?

The answer is a resounding NO.

Is he going to make this new covenant with the uncircumcised Gentiles?

Again, NO.

This new covenant is for Israel.

Don't get too excited yet.. There is of course much more to it than this. Please read on.

Now the main benefit of this new covenant is listed in verse 34 which says,

“…: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

This covenant is about Israel receiving the permanent forgiveness of their sin and the Lord not remembering their sin any more. It is an everlasting covenant. If he were to remember their sin again, then it would not be an everlasting covenant.

In Isaiah 46 it says,

“12 Hearken unto me ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:13 I bring near my righteousness; and it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.”

Where is the Lord going to place salvation and who will it be for?

In Zion FOR ISRAEL.

Question: Does it say, “I will place salvation in Zion for the whole world?” No. Is he going to place it for the uncircumcised Gentiles? NO.

He very specifically says it will be for Israel.

In Malachi 3 it says,

“1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”

Jesus quotes this verse and refers it to John the Baptist. In Matthew 11 it says,

“8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.”

So from Malachi 3:1 and Matthew 11 we see that John is the messenger of the new covenant. Jesus is not the messenger of the new covenant, Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant, John is the messenger. In Malachi 3:1 the Lord of hosts that is speaking is Jesus Christ, and the messenger that is to come before him is John the Baptist.

Regardless of who you feel is the messenger of the new covenant, the point is, the new covenant is now being offered to Israel when John the baptist comes on the scene.

In Luke 16 it says,

“16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”

Since the time John came on the scene the kingdom is preached. John was preaching about 6 months before the Lord was. John is the messenger of the new covenant.

Once again, this new covenant has to do with Israel getting the forgiveness of their sin and God not remembering their sin anymore. In Luke 21 it says,

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”

When did the Lord say that they would get their redemption? When he comes back in a cloud and great glory. This is the second coming of Christ. This is when Israel will get their new covenant.

Has He returned yet?

In Acts 3 Peter is preaching the gospel of the kingdom and he says,

“19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

When will Israel get their sins blotted out? When the Lord comes back. This is the new covenant.

In Romans 11 Paul says,

“25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.”

When will Israel get their sins taken away? When the Deliverer shall roar out of Zion. Once again this is the second coming and is when Israel will receive their new covenant.

In Daniel 9 it says,

“24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

When will this happen? At the end of the seventieth week. This is when the Lord will finish the transgression and make an end of sins and make reconciliation for iniquity and bring in everlasting righteousness. Once again, this is Israel’s new covenant.

In Hebrews 9 it says,

“28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

When will the Hebrews receive their salvation? At the second coming of Christ.

In 1st Peter 1 it says,

“4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;”

When will the Jews receive their salvation and their grace? When Jesus Christ is revealed from heaven at the second coming. Not until the fullness of the gentiles come in.

There are many verses that tell us that the new covenant is at the second coming of Christ. This is when Israel will receive the permanent forgiveness of their sins and God will remember their sin no more.

This new covenant was prophesied by Jeremiah and offered unto Israel by John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

In Matthew 10 it says,

“5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Why did Jesus tell the apostles not to go to the Gentiles? It appears that it was because they were offering the new covenant unto Israel. The new covenant was made for Israel, not the uncircumcised Gentiles. The uncircumcised Gentiles were strangers from the covenants of promise. Genesis 17.

In John 4, Jesus talked to a Gentile woman and told her,

“22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.”

Why did Jesus tell her that salvation was of the Jews? Because when Isaiah was alive Jesus told him to write,

“…I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.”

So what we have here is the new covenant being offered unto the nation of Israel. This is the salvation that the Lord promised them. The new covenant was not promised to uncircumcised Gentiles, never was, never will be.

Let’s go ahead and look at time chart 1. This chart shows us in orange when John the Baptist came and began to preach the kingdom which is when Israel will receive the new covenant. Jesus and the apostles followed suit and this new covenant was to be offered unto Israel all the way to the end of the 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy.

In blue we have the new covenant church (or kingdom church if you prefer) this new covenant church is for Jews only, it does not include uncircumcised Gentiles, for they are strangers from the covenants of promise. The purple area shows the uncircumcised Gentiles. We have this church beginning at Acts 2 or the cross whichever you prefer. As long as you see it did start, the exact pinpoint of time is not crucial for now.

In the lower center in pink we see the everlasting covenant of circumcision, which separates the circumcision from the uncircumcision. God made this separation in Genesis 17. This is part of the middle wall of partition.

The 1st chart also shows the second coming of Christ and how Israel’s new covenant is given at this time.
On this chart the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel are not separated by the dispensation of grace to show how things are supposed to line up. This is God offering the new covenant unto the nation of Israel.

On chart 2, we can see the separation of the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel by the dispensation of grace given unto the Gentiles. As you can see, the one new man has been inserted into the church which is how God would save the Gentiles and join them with the Jews together in one body.

At the rapture, (and as far as I know, orthodox christians don't adhere to the rapture or the catching away full stop, but anyway), the one new man will be taken out of the way but the new covenant church will proceed through the tribulation. This is not a study on the rapture or the one new man but rather on the new covenant and the new covenant church, so we won’t go into those details here.

At the lower center of this chart we see the circumcision made without hands. This was accomplished by the one new man.

Also you will notice in orange again, that the offering of the new covenant has ceased. It has been replaced by the offering of the body of Christ to Jew and Gentile during the dispensation of grace. This is a spiritual new covenant rather than the new covenant of the letter. I'd be happy to discuss this in more detail if anyone is interested.

During the tribulation, there will be some uncircumcised Gentiles that bless Israel and they will be allowed into the kingdom but they will not be partakers with Israel. At the second coming of Christ, the Lord Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats. In Matthew 25 it says,

“31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

These Gentiles that bless Israel will be allowed into the kingdom but they will not, I repeat, will not be partakers with Israel. When the Lord comes back this is when Israel will receive their grace that was promised them, but the Lord will rule over the nations with a rod of iron. In Revelation 19 it says,

“15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

Also when he gets back, the uncircumcised Gentiles that made it through the tribulation will not be allowed into Jerusalem any more. In Isaiah 52 it says,

“1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.”

The uncircumcised Gentiles will not be able to go INTO Jerusalem, but they will be forced to come UNTO Jerusalem to worship the King. In Zechariah 14 it says,

“16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.”

If they do not come unto Jerusalem to worship the King at the feast of tabernacles the Lord will punish them with drought. Also in verse 21 it says that there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord.

Also as Israel is receiving their grace that they were promised, the uncircumcised Gentiles will be receiving a law to follow from the Lord. In Isaiah 42 it says,

1“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.”

During the 1000 year reign of Christ, while Israel receives their grace, the uncircumcised Gentiles that make it through the tribulation will be ruled with a rod of iron, will not be allowed to go into Jerusalem, will be forced to keep the feast of tabernacles or be punished, and they will be under a law that will be given to them by the Lord.

The uncircumcised Gentiles will be under a law, and the Jews will be under grace. The Jews will be the head and the Gentiles will be the tail.

The uncircumcised Gentiles WILL NOT, I repeat, WILL NOT be partakers with Israel. Just because God allows them into the kingdom does not make them partakers with the nation of Israel nor does it remove the everlasting covenant of circumcision.

Now at the end of the 1000 year reign God will make a new heaven and a new earth. The everlasting covenants that he gave will still be in effect such as the new covenant given to Israel and the covenant of circumcision.

God himself will descend from Heaven with the New Jerusalem. Inside the gates of the city will be a tree of life on each side of the river of life. Israel will dwell in the city as will the body of Christ, but there will be uncircumcised Gentiles outside of the city.

The fruit from the tree of life has something to do with allowing flesh to live forever. Adam in his sinful state could have eaten from the tree of life in the garden of Eden and lived forever. God had to kick him out of the garden so he would die.

Even so, when God brings down the New Jerusalem he will have a tree of life on each side of the river. In order for the people of the world that live outside the city, for them to be able to get to the tree of life they will have to do the Lord’s commandments. In Revelation 22 it says,

“14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”

If they do not do the Lord’s commandments, they will not be allowed inside the gates of the New Jerusalem to get to the tree of life. If they cannot partake of the tree of life, they will eventually die. Death and hell have already been cast into the lake of fire, so when they die they will go straight to the lake of fire.

This is not salvation by grace through faith. This is not being partakers with Israel in their new covenant. These people that live outside the city, and if they do not do the Lord’s commandments, he WILL remember their sin. They will not have eternal life. Their eternal life is based upon partaking of the tree of life which is based upon doing the commandments of the Lord.

So what we have here is a clear understanding that the salvation that was offered to Israel is not the same salvation that is offered to the people outside of the New Jerusalem.

Israel’s salvation in their everlasting new covenant will be based upon grace and not remembering their sin anymore. The salvation of the people outside of the New Jerusalem will be based upon them having right to the tree of life based upon them doing the commandments of the Lord.

These are not the same. Let’s look at chart 3.

During this dispensation of grace that we are living in God has done something very special for us. We have been made partakers of Israel’s spiritual things by the one new man (the body of Christ). It is very unique, and we should be very, very thankful.

So what we have covered here is what the new covenant really is, who it was given to, and when it will come into effect. We have also seen that the grace that will be given to Israel at the new covenant will not be given to the uncircumcised Gentiles.

In Genesis 17 God separated man into two distinct entities, circumcision and uncircumcision. He said that this covenant would be in their flesh and that this would be an everlasting covenant and he meant it. He made covenants with the circumcision, not the uncircumcision. The uncircumcision were strangers from the covenants of promise.

Only through the one new man has God joined circumcision and uncircumcision into one body.

Once again, apologies for the extra long post.

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neon_knights
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« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2012, 12:34:15 AM »

tl;dr
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Riddikulus
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« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2012, 12:39:18 AM »

 Smiley ^^ I've skimmed ByGracethroughFaith's long post. This is basically dispensationalism, no?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 12:40:26 AM by Riddikulus » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2012, 12:50:46 AM »

^ That's what I thought as well... *shrugs*


*Reads post again...*

Hi, well the first thing wrong here is you are applying things found in the 2nd chapter of Acts through to the 5th chapter of Acts to us as though that is for us. Look at who is being addressed here.. Israel. Men of Israel. People of the dispersion. Both Jews, and proselyzed Jews. Who was at pentecost? Jews. Israel. It was a Jewish festival. Not a gentile festival. Gentiles were not welcome at this point.

It is not until Peter has the vision from the Lord of all of the unclean animals coming down on the sheet that God shows Peter that salvation will be made available to the gentiles. Peter had no idea of this.

Israel rejected their new covenant church. I think you'll find that Israel was counted in 'unbelief' by the middle of the book of Acts with the stoning of Steven. This is why Christ is seen 'STANDING' at the right hand of the throne.. Not sitting as He did when He ascended.

But because of Israels rejection, comes out of that, our, gentile, salvation.

To understand how the church works for us as gentiles, we need to read Pauls letters. The fullness of the gospel is revealed to Paul. We can't look at pentecost and imagine that the place was flowing full with Jews and gentiles.. What we clearly see is that pentecost at Jerusalem was filled with Jews, and proselyzed Jews - only.

If we try and mix all things in the 'new testament' up together and apply everything in it to ourselves without recognizing the very clear distinction between Gods dealings with Israel as a nation and His dealings with us - the rest of the world, then we will be left confused.

1) Parts of NT not for us, they're for the Jews. Check.
2) At first Gentiles "were not welcome". Check.
2) Things changed around mid-acts. Check.

How is that not mid-Acts dispensationalism? That's like the very definition of the idea...  police
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« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2012, 01:01:40 AM »

^ That's what I thought as well... *shrugs*


*Reads post again...*

Hi, well the first thing wrong here is you are applying things found in the 2nd chapter of Acts through to the 5th chapter of Acts to us as though that is for us. Look at who is being addressed here.. Israel. Men of Israel. People of the dispersion. Both Jews, and proselyzed Jews. Who was at pentecost? Jews. Israel. It was a Jewish festival. Not a gentile festival. Gentiles were not welcome at this point.

It is not until Peter has the vision from the Lord of all of the unclean animals coming down on the sheet that God shows Peter that salvation will be made available to the gentiles. Peter had no idea of this.

Israel rejected their new covenant church. I think you'll find that Israel was counted in 'unbelief' by the middle of the book of Acts with the stoning of Steven. This is why Christ is seen 'STANDING' at the right hand of the throne.. Not sitting as He did when He ascended.

But because of Israels rejection, comes out of that, our, gentile, salvation.

To understand how the church works for us as gentiles, we need to read Pauls letters. The fullness of the gospel is revealed to Paul. We can't look at pentecost and imagine that the place was flowing full with Jews and gentiles.. What we clearly see is that pentecost at Jerusalem was filled with Jews, and proselyzed Jews - only.

If we try and mix all things in the 'new testament' up together and apply everything in it to ourselves without recognizing the very clear distinction between Gods dealings with Israel as a nation and His dealings with us - the rest of the world, then we will be left confused.

1) Parts of NT not for us, they're for the Jews. Check.
2) At first Gentiles "were not welcome". Check.
2) Things changed around mid-acts. Check.

How is that not mid-Acts dispensationalism? That's like the very definition of the idea...  police

Thanks, Asteriktos. So this teaching, or some earlier variation of it, started in the 19th Century. So for 1800+ years the Church missed this?  Huh
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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

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« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2012, 01:10:36 AM »

Great. Even if it does resemble what some call 'mid acts' dispensationalism, lets just blow it off.
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« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2012, 01:13:00 AM »

By the way 'this teaching' - if you want to call it that, comes from the bible - not from man.
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