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Anastasia1
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« on: January 11, 2012, 11:52:21 PM »

So what does baptism for the remission of sins indicate for those who have not yet been baptized? Is there any thing similar to the Catholic idea of baptism of desire for those who died without the opportunity to be baptized?
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 12:00:09 AM »

So what does baptism for the remission of sins indicate for those who have not yet been baptized? Is there any thing similar to the Catholic idea of baptism of desire for those who died without the opportunity to be baptized?

Christ commands that we be baptized to receive eternal life. Only God knows what happens to those who are not baptized. It is not for us to judge.
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Maria
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2012, 12:10:54 AM »

The Holy Mysteries of Baptism, Chrismation, and Holy Communion are not only important for our spiritual life, but also for our very salvation.

Christ told the Apostles to go into the world, baptizing people in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

He also told the Apostles to celebrate the Eucharist, and stressed the importance of Holy Communion for our salvation by saying, "he who does not eat and drink of My Body and Blood shall NOT have eternal life."

Therefore, as faith informs us, we should not delay in begging the Church to impart these Holy Mysteries upon us.

These Holy Mysteries give us the grace to put on Christ and to grow in theosis.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 12:11:23 AM by Maria » Logged

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Anastasia1
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2012, 12:30:46 AM »

The Holy Mysteries of Baptism, Chrismation, and Holy Communion are not only important for our spiritual life, but also for our very salvation.

Christ told the Apostles to go into the world, baptizing people in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

He also told the Apostles to celebrate the Eucharist, and stressed the importance of Holy Communion for our salvation by saying, "he who does not eat and drink of My Body and Blood shall NOT have eternal life."

Therefore, as faith informs us, we should not delay in begging the Church to impart these Holy Mysteries upon us.

These Holy Mysteries give us the grace to put on Christ and to grow in theosis.
Ok, but I'm thinking more along the lines of suppose John Doe discovers Christ. Believes in Christ. Wants to join the Church. Gets hit by a bus on his way to his baptism and dies. In Catholicism, it would count as Baptism of Desire. If John Doe was killed for his faith on his way to church, it would count as Baptism of Fire. Orthodoxy, however, is not Catholicism.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 12:32:18 AM by Anastasia1 » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2012, 12:37:48 AM »

The Holy Mysteries of Baptism, Chrismation, and Holy Communion are not only important for our spiritual life, but also for our very salvation.

Christ told the Apostles to go into the world, baptizing people in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

He also told the Apostles to celebrate the Eucharist, and stressed the importance of Holy Communion for our salvation by saying, "he who does not eat and drink of My Body and Blood shall NOT have eternal life."

Therefore, as faith informs us, we should not delay in begging the Church to impart these Holy Mysteries upon us.

These Holy Mysteries give us the grace to put on Christ and to grow in theosis.
Ok, but I'm thinking more along the lines of suppose John Doe discovers Christ. Believes in Christ. Wants to join the Church. Gets hit by a bus on his way to his baptism and dies. In Catholicism, it would count as Baptism of Desire. If John Doe was killed for his faith on his way to church, it would count as Baptism of Fire. Orthodoxy, however, is not Catholicism.

I believe Christ gave his answer in regards to this issue with the thief on the cross:

"And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Luke 23:42-44
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 12:43:28 AM »

Have you ever heard of the 40 Martyrs of Sebaste?

These were tough Roman soldiers who believed in Christ.
They were suffering martyrdom at the frozen lake, naked in the snow, freezing to death.
One of the 40 soldiers weakened and turned back to the fire for warmth.
A guard saw this scene, quickly took off his uniform, and joined the other 39 martyrs.

A holy crown was seen to lower from heaven over this newly martyred soldier.
Even though he was not baptized, and joined the rest at the last moment, he is acknowledged to be a saint.
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 12:45:26 AM »

There is the adage:

Although God created the sacraments for man, God does not need the sacraments.

Just as Christ saved the good thief on the Cross, so He also saved the 40th martyr at Sebaste in Armenia.
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2012, 04:13:24 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So what does baptism for the remission of sins indicate for those who have not yet been baptized? Is there any thing similar to the Catholic idea of baptism of desire for those who died without the opportunity to be baptized?

Christ commands that we be baptized to receive eternal life. Only God knows what happens to those who are not baptized. It is not for us to judge.

Amen! ..and for their sake let us hope the Apostle Paul is correct:

Quote
Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?"
1 Corinthians 15:29

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2012, 04:29:58 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So what does baptism for the remission of sins indicate for those who have not yet been baptized? Is there any thing similar to the Catholic idea of baptism of desire for those who died without the opportunity to be baptized?

Christ commands that we be baptized to receive eternal life. Only God knows what happens to those who are not baptized. It is not for us to judge.

Amen! ..and for their sake let us hope the Apostle Paul is correct:

Quote
Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?"
1 Corinthians 15:29

1 Corinthians 15:29 sounds like something Mormons took and developed into a money making racket.

From the Orthodox Bible Study: "The meaning ... is much disputed."

p. 1570

Quote
St. John Chrysostom considered it a derisive comment about the practices of the Marcionite heretics. Epiphanius says it refers to a practice of the followers of Cerinthus, another gnostic teacher.
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2012, 04:33:19 PM »

habte,

What is your take on the passage from St. Paul which you quoted above?

What do Oriental Orthodox saints believe? Do they agree with St. John Chrysostom?
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 04:41:22 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So what does baptism for the remission of sins indicate for those who have not yet been baptized? Is there any thing similar to the Catholic idea of baptism of desire for those who died without the opportunity to be baptized?

Christ commands that we be baptized to receive eternal life. Only God knows what happens to those who are not baptized. It is not for us to judge.

Amen! ..and for their sake let us hope the Apostle Paul is correct:

Quote
Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?"
1 Corinthians 15:29

1 Corinthians 15:29 sounds like something Mormons took and developed into a money making racket.

From the Orthodox Bible Study: "The meaning ... is much disputed."

p. 1570

Quote
St. John Chrysostom considered it a derisive comment about the practices of the Marcionite heretics. Epiphanius says it refers to a practice of the followers of Cerinthus, another gnostic teacher.

Disputed but not disregarded Wink

I also noticed you strategically forgot to mention the first reference in that Orthodox Study Bible notation,

Quote
"Many understand this as vicarious baptism of baptized Christians for deceased catechumens."


Here is the referenced homily..
Quote
What then is that which he means? Or will ye that I should first mention how they who are infected with the Marcionite heresy pervert this expression? And I know indeed that I shall excite much laughter; nevertheless, even on this account most of all I will mention it that you may the more completely avoid this disease: viz., when any catechumen departs among them, having concealed the living man under the couch of the dead, they approach the corpse and talk with him, and ask him if he wishes to receive baptism; then when he makes no answer, he that is concealed underneath saith in his stead that of course he should wish to be baptized; and so they baptize him instead of the departed, like men jesting upon the stage. So great power hath the devil over the souls of careless sinners. Then being called to account, they allege this expression, saying that even the Apostle hath said, "They who are baptized for the dead. Seest thou their extreme ridiculousness?" (St John Chrysostom, Homily XL, on 1 Corinthians)
I can accept Saint John Chrysostom's referenced homily as a valid perspective, however as it was said before, we do not know what God does, and while perhaps the Church shouldn't perform vicarious Baptismal ceremonies as the Mormons do, can we be so sure that God does not Baptize those in the Holy Spirit even beyond death, such as the Thief at the Right, or the Old Testament Saints?  

stay blessed,
habte selassie

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Maria
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2012, 04:45:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So what does baptism for the remission of sins indicate for those who have not yet been baptized? Is there any thing similar to the Catholic idea of baptism of desire for those who died without the opportunity to be baptized?

Christ commands that we be baptized to receive eternal life. Only God knows what happens to those who are not baptized. It is not for us to judge.

Amen! ..and for their sake let us hope the Apostle Paul is correct:

Quote
Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?"
1 Corinthians 15:29

1 Corinthians 15:29 sounds like something Mormons took and developed into a money making racket.

From the Orthodox Bible Study: "The meaning ... is much disputed."

p. 1570

Quote
St. John Chrysostom considered it a derisive comment about the practices of the Marcionite heretics. Epiphanius says it refers to a practice of the followers of Cerinthus, another gnostic teacher.

Disputed but not disregarded Wink

I also noticed you strategically forgot to mention the first reference in that Orthodox Study Bible notation,

Quote
"Many understand this as vicarious baptism of baptized Christians for deceased catechumens."


Here is the referenced homily..
Quote
What then is that which he means? Or will ye that I should first mention how they who are infected with the Marcionite heresy pervert this expression? And I know indeed that I shall excite much laughter; nevertheless, even on this account most of all I will mention it that you may the more completely avoid this disease: viz., when any catechumen departs among them, having concealed the living man under the couch of the dead, they approach the corpse and talk with him, and ask him if he wishes to receive baptism; then when he makes no answer, he that is concealed underneath saith in his stead that of course he should wish to be baptized; and so they baptize him instead of the departed, like men jesting upon the stage. So great power hath the devil over the souls of careless sinners. Then being called to account, they allege this expression, saying that even the Apostle hath said, "They who are baptized for the dead. Seest thou their extreme ridiculousness?" (St John Chrysostom, Homily XL, on 1 Corinthians)
I can accept Saint John Chrysostom's referenced homily as a valid perspective, however as it was said before, we do not know what God does, and while perhaps the Church shouldn't perform vicarious Baptismal ceremonies as the Mormons do, can we be so sure that God does not Baptize those in the Holy Spirit even beyond death, such as the Thief at the Right, or the Old Testament Saints?  

stay blessed,
habte selassie

stay blessed,
habte selassie


Since we are limited to two or three sentences of copyrighted material. I had to eliminate one sentence.
Thanks for quoting that one.  Roll Eyes LOL

Thanks for your fast reply.

Since Christ is the Living Water, and since heaven has been described as a place streaming with water, indeed what is to prevent the Apostles in heaven from baptizing all those who had desired baptism, but who had died prior to their baptism. Nevertheless, we will not experience the Resurrection  until the end of the age when Christ will come to judge the living and the dead, so I guess we shall never know until the day we enter the pearly gates and experience the Second Coming and Final Judgment.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 04:52:22 PM by Maria » Logged

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