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Author Topic: America goes on an apparent gun buying spree  (Read 3556 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: January 18, 2012, 01:07:24 AM »

Only Sith deal in absolutes. -George Lucas

Well, when you meet a real live Sith Lord in the flesh, you be just as careful as can be.

Meantime, you just keep on quoting Hollywood.  One of these years they're sure to be right about something.

That's part of the joke...
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« Reply #91 on: January 18, 2012, 07:52:32 AM »

There is a Starbucks in nearly every city in the US so people can talk about people who are beneath them.  Wink

Simply having personal preferences about quality of life doesn't make me think that I'm above other people.  As for coffee, I really only like to make it at home.  I'm too cheap to pay for something I can make better at home.

Quality of life, as opposed to standard of living or HDI, is rather difficult to quantify objectively, but, if you factor in risk analysis there are great benefits to global influence (not to mention the geographic advantage we enjoy, protected by two oceans). As for every day living, international risks aside, I'm glad you found somewhere you like but we would differ on what is essential to quality of life, I'd give great technological development far more weight than cultural pursuits and individual liberty more consideration than urban culture, but that's just a matter of personal preference.
   

I agree it is difficult to quantify and ultimately up to personal preference.  As far as technology goes, I'm content not being on the front lines as long as I have reasonably fast internet.  But you could hardly argue that a European style Urban life is antithetical to modernity (i.e Germany doesn't lag behind).  In the most wired societies like South Korea or Japan, I honestly think I'd go crazy if I spent much more than a few years there.  It is a toss up though as Korean food might be one of the best cuisines in the world. 
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« Reply #92 on: January 18, 2012, 07:53:31 AM »

Only Sith deal in absolutes. -George Lucas

Well, when you meet a real live Sith Lord in the flesh, you be just as careful as can be.

Meantime, you just keep on quoting Hollywood.  One of these years they're sure to be right about something.

That's part of the joke...

Dangit . . .
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« Reply #93 on: January 18, 2012, 01:05:27 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
The Homicide Report
THE TIMES CHRONICLES L.A. COUNTY HOMICIDE VICTIMS
Showing 624 homicides from Jan. 1, 2010 to Dec. 29, 2010

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/map/?year=2010 (by the way you can read the names and stories behind all of these murders at this link Sad )
 
415% decrease over the past twenty years?

EVERY SINGLE DEATH IS AN ABSOLUTE TRAGEDY, AND EVERY SINGLE LIFE SAVED IS AN ABSOLUTE MIRACLE.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

What a load of crap.

A few years ago I was coming home with my family from a late-night Presanctified Gifts.  While we got out of our mini-van (go ahead and laugh) a guy in a Jeep yelled at my wife that he wanted to, as he put it, "kill you, you f-ing b****."  He hit the gas and drove at her.


However, I don't need you or your pathetic laws to save me from myself (or from anyone else), as the Good Lord gave me enough sense to at least have had a .38 DAO revolver on my person.  He's extremely lucky I wasn't carrying my Glock.  

 

And did you even *bother* to actually *read* the stories of your horrible "gun" victims (I've had firearms all my life and I've never seen one get up and bite a single person who didn't ask for it first)?

Quote
http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/bernardino-gomez-jr/  Investigators said Gomez appeared to have had gang-affiliations.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/gerald-smith/  Investigators said the shooting appeared to be gang-related, but added that Smith had no gang affiliation.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/alfonso-covarrubias/  Borihanh said investigators believe the shooting may have been gang-related, but police have no description of a suspect or vehicle.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/michael-douver/  The shooting is believed to be gang-related.
 If I were stupid enough to live in such an area, I sure as heck wouldn't be stupid enough to live there as unarmed as a New England Quaker on a Sunday morning buggy ride to church.


So you're telling me you would have shot a person over an incident of road rage? Perhaps you need to pause and reflect on that for a minute..

Further, please refrain from disrespecting my friends and family who have died and been buried in the cemetary by gun violence, the dead can't speak for themselves so I have to speak on their behalf, and you are free to your opinions, but you have NO RIGHT to be so disrespectful. You can diss me, you can diss the laws, but don't you DARE disrespect the dead, be they gangsters, innocents, or my own friends and family.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #94 on: January 18, 2012, 01:50:10 PM »

Road rage?  Sounds more like attempted murder.  I suppose that he was just trying to turn his life around, too.  If someone was trying to run my wife down and I was there, they would need to check DNA to identify what was left of him.  That is the problem in certain parts of my city, the ones most likely to die of gun violence are the ones also most likely to make excuses for criminal action.  Sorry, but I do not see most of the shootings in Omaha as a tragedy, other than a high percentage of the targets survive only to commit more crimes later.  And when one does end up getting killed (the only time most of the stories are even reported anymore), his rap sheet is often longer than Al Capone's.  The real tragedy are the poor convenience store clerks that get executed by the gangs (store clearly marked "no firearms"), or the poor pizza delivery boy who gets stabbed over the $20 he is carrying (company policy that drivers cannot carry weapons).  Thankfully, due to our general freedom to arm ourselves here, the bad guys do not always win (Benson Pawn Shop, Grills, Benson Walgreens).  Since I have lived here, there have been several shootings where the perp was killed instead of the intended victim.  And the worst shooting in Omaha occured at a place where (legal) firearms were prohibited (Von Maur).

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
The Homicide Report
THE TIMES CHRONICLES L.A. COUNTY HOMICIDE VICTIMS
Showing 624 homicides from Jan. 1, 2010 to Dec. 29, 2010

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/map/?year=2010 (by the way you can read the names and stories behind all of these murders at this link Sad )
 
415% decrease over the past twenty years?

EVERY SINGLE DEATH IS AN ABSOLUTE TRAGEDY, AND EVERY SINGLE LIFE SAVED IS AN ABSOLUTE MIRACLE.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

What a load of crap.

A few years ago I was coming home with my family from a late-night Presanctified Gifts.  While we got out of our mini-van (go ahead and laugh) a guy in a Jeep yelled at my wife that he wanted to, as he put it, "kill you, you f-ing b****."  He hit the gas and drove at her.


However, I don't need you or your pathetic laws to save me from myself (or from anyone else), as the Good Lord gave me enough sense to at least have had a .38 DAO revolver on my person.  He's extremely lucky I wasn't carrying my Glock.  

 

And did you even *bother* to actually *read* the stories of your horrible "gun" victims (I've had firearms all my life and I've never seen one get up and bite a single person who didn't ask for it first)?

Quote
http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/bernardino-gomez-jr/  Investigators said Gomez appeared to have had gang-affiliations.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/gerald-smith/  Investigators said the shooting appeared to be gang-related, but added that Smith had no gang affiliation.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/alfonso-covarrubias/  Borihanh said investigators believe the shooting may have been gang-related, but police have no description of a suspect or vehicle.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/michael-douver/  The shooting is believed to be gang-related.
 If I were stupid enough to live in such an area, I sure as heck wouldn't be stupid enough to live there as unarmed as a New England Quaker on a Sunday morning buggy ride to church.


So you're telling me you would have shot a person over an incident of road rage? Perhaps you need to pause and reflect on that for a minute..

Further, please refrain from disrespecting my friends and family who have died and been buried in the cemetary by gun violence, the dead can't speak for themselves so I have to speak on their behalf, and you are free to your opinions, but you have NO RIGHT to be so disrespectful. You can diss me, you can diss the laws, but don't you DARE disrespect the dead, be they gangsters, innocents, or my own friends and family.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #95 on: January 18, 2012, 01:54:52 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Y'all sure do love the movies, unfortunately life is no action packed thriller.  Shootings are not romantic, they are a tragedy.  Perhaps I am a bit to personally acquanted with gun violence to see where y'all are coming from, but I see nothing honorable in shooting another person, even in self-defense. If folks are pushed to such an extreme, surely these should be grateful to God for His mercy and repentant in having been forced by circumstance to violence, rather than romanticize and glorify gun violence in self-defense as if this were the wild west or a dual.

Life is real y'all, realer than the movies, and bullets hurt and sometimes they even kill.

Its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #96 on: January 18, 2012, 02:17:18 PM »

There is a Starbucks in nearly every city in the US so people can talk about people who are beneath them.  Wink

Simply having personal preferences about quality of life doesn't make me think that I'm above other people.  As for coffee, I really only like to make it at home.  I'm too cheap to pay for something I can make better at home.

Quality of life, as opposed to standard of living or HDI, is rather difficult to quantify objectively, but, if you factor in risk analysis there are great benefits to global influence (not to mention the geographic advantage we enjoy, protected by two oceans). As for every day living, international risks aside, I'm glad you found somewhere you like but we would differ on what is essential to quality of life, I'd give great technological development far more weight than cultural pursuits and individual liberty more consideration than urban culture, but that's just a matter of personal preference.
   

I agree it is difficult to quantify and ultimately up to personal preference.  As far as technology goes, I'm content not being on the front lines as long as I have reasonably fast internet.  But you could hardly argue that a European style Urban life is antithetical to modernity (i.e Germany doesn't lag behind).  In the most wired societies like South Korea or Japan, I honestly think I'd go crazy if I spent much more than a few years there.  It is a toss up though as Korean food might be one of the best cuisines in the world. 

There you have it, the one place I find American culture lacking is in comparison to the technological aspects of South Korea and Japan's cultures and I would consider an area without 4G wireless data access and 100Mbps+ Internet access to be unfit for human habitation. Wink

Of course, the United States' problem with technological infrastructure is sheer scale...which also largely the cause of many of the cultural phenomena within the United States that you pointed out baffles foreigners. Our cities are amongst the most advanced in the world but you're obviously not going to find the same level of development in Wyoming or west Texas.
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« Reply #97 on: January 18, 2012, 02:50:08 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Y'all sure do love the movies, unfortunately life is no action packed thriller.  Shootings are not romantic, they are a tragedy.  Perhaps I am a bit to personally acquanted with gun violence to see where y'all are coming from, but I see nothing honorable in shooting another person, even in self-defense. If folks are pushed to such an extreme, surely these should be grateful to God for His mercy and repentant in having been forced by circumstance to violence, rather than romanticize and glorify gun violence in self-defense as if this were the wild west or a dual.

Life is real y'all, realer than the movies, and bullets hurt and sometimes they even kill.

Its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No s... bullets hurt and kill.  The question is, which hurts more?  Would you rather see innocent people get killed?  Because that's what you get.  The Von Maur shooting Punch mentioned took place in an Omaha mall.  A gun-free zone, supposedly.  Eight people died.  The poor pizza boy who got stabbed over $20 in an apartment's parking lot - I worked with him for a short time before getting fired.  He was unarmed. 

When a man out to do evil is killed it is a tragedy in that he has lost his chance at repentance, but that is of his own volition.  No one asked these people to walk into stores shooting innocent people.  No one asked for that.  No one wanted that.  I am thankful that there are people out there that care enough for their fellow human beings to stand up and help them when all their instincts are telling them that they should run and preserve their own lives.

Sometimes the greatest evil is when supposedly good men don't act to stop evil.  Anyone who tries to aide the evil in their crimes by making it easier for them are complicit in their crimes.
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« Reply #98 on: January 18, 2012, 03:12:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Y'all sure do love the movies, unfortunately life is no action packed thriller.  Shootings are not romantic, they are a tragedy.  Perhaps I am a bit to personally acquanted with gun violence to see where y'all are coming from, but I see nothing honorable in shooting another person, even in self-defense. If folks are pushed to such an extreme, surely these should be grateful to God for His mercy and repentant in having been forced by circumstance to violence, rather than romanticize and glorify gun violence in self-defense as if this were the wild west or a dual.

Life is real y'all, realer than the movies, and bullets hurt and sometimes they even kill.

Its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No s... bullets hurt and kill.  The question is, which hurts more?  Would you rather see innocent people get killed?  Because that's what you get.  The Von Maur shooting Punch mentioned took place in an Omaha mall.  A gun-free zone, supposedly.  Eight people died.  The poor pizza boy who got stabbed over $20 in an apartment's parking lot - I worked with him for a short time before getting fired.  He was unarmed. 

When a man out to do evil is killed it is a tragedy in that he has lost his chance at repentance, but that is of his own volition.  No one asked these people to walk into stores shooting innocent people.  No one asked for that.  No one wanted that.  I am thankful that there are people out there that care enough for their fellow human beings to stand up and help them when all their instincts are telling them that they should run and preserve their own lives.

Sometimes the greatest evil is when supposedly good men don't act to stop evil.  Anyone who tries to aide the evil in their crimes by making it easier for them are complicit in their crimes.
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« Reply #99 on: January 18, 2012, 05:31:48 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Y'all sure do love the movies, unfortunately life is no action packed thriller.  Shootings are not romantic, they are a tragedy.  Perhaps I am a bit to personally acquanted with gun violence to see where y'all are coming from, but I see nothing honorable in shooting another person, even in self-defense. If folks are pushed to such an extreme, surely these should be grateful to God for His mercy and repentant in having been forced by circumstance to violence, rather than romanticize and glorify gun violence in self-defense as if this were the wild west or a dual.

Life is real y'all, realer than the movies, and bullets hurt and sometimes they even kill.

Its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No s... bullets hurt and kill.  The question is, which hurts more?  Would you rather see innocent people get killed?  Because that's what you get.  The Von Maur shooting Punch mentioned took place in an Omaha mall.  A gun-free zone, supposedly.  Eight people died.  The poor pizza boy who got stabbed over $20 in an apartment's parking lot - I worked with him for a short time before getting fired.  He was unarmed. 

When a man out to do evil is killed it is a tragedy in that he has lost his chance at repentance, but that is of his own volition.  No one asked these people to walk into stores shooting innocent people.  No one asked for that.  No one wanted that.  I am thankful that there are people out there that care enough for their fellow human beings to stand up and help them when all their instincts are telling them that they should run and preserve their own lives.

Sometimes the greatest evil is when supposedly good men don't act to stop evil.  Anyone who tries to aide the evil in their crimes by making it easier for them are complicit in their crimes.

I agree with you on that for real.  However, clearly we have a fundamental disagreement as to what the "supposedly good men should do" and from my experience and perspective I think when the good men eliminate the options for guns then potential the violence is minimalized, but again, we all seem to disagree about this so I will hold my peace.  I don't think I can convince y'all, I just want to testify for the hundreds of readers who chose not to to respond and may either also agree with me or at the least have misunderstood what I am saying.  I believe folks need to stand up in faith and prayer, and leave the guns for the devil, but that is my opinion, and I am the one beating a dead horse now so alas..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #100 on: January 18, 2012, 05:53:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Y'all sure do love the movies, unfortunately life is no action packed thriller.  Shootings are not romantic, they are a tragedy.  Perhaps I am a bit to personally acquanted with gun violence to see where y'all are coming from, but I see nothing honorable in shooting another person, even in self-defense. If folks are pushed to such an extreme, surely these should be grateful to God for His mercy and repentant in having been forced by circumstance to violence, rather than romanticize and glorify gun violence in self-defense as if this were the wild west or a dual.

Life is real y'all, realer than the movies, and bullets hurt and sometimes they even kill.

Its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No s... bullets hurt and kill.  The question is, which hurts more?  Would you rather see innocent people get killed?  Because that's what you get.  The Von Maur shooting Punch mentioned took place in an Omaha mall.  A gun-free zone, supposedly.  Eight people died.  The poor pizza boy who got stabbed over $20 in an apartment's parking lot - I worked with him for a short time before getting fired.  He was unarmed. 

When a man out to do evil is killed it is a tragedy in that he has lost his chance at repentance, but that is of his own volition.  No one asked these people to walk into stores shooting innocent people.  No one asked for that.  No one wanted that.  I am thankful that there are people out there that care enough for their fellow human beings to stand up and help them when all their instincts are telling them that they should run and preserve their own lives.

Sometimes the greatest evil is when supposedly good men don't act to stop evil.  Anyone who tries to aide the evil in their crimes by making it easier for them are complicit in their crimes.

I agree with you on that for real.  However, clearly we have a fundamental disagreement as to what the "supposedly good men should do" and from my experience and perspective I think when the good men eliminate the options for guns then potential the violence is minimalized, but again, we all seem to disagree about this so I will hold my peace.  I don't think I can convince y'all, I just want to testify for the hundreds of readers who chose not to to respond and may either also agree with me or at the least have misunderstood what I am saying.  I believe folks need to stand up in faith and prayer, and leave the guns for the devil, but that is my opinion, and I am the one beating a dead horse now so alas..

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Hopefully I will never have evidence as to whether my method is more effective than yours or not.  I just like having the option.

And I will never argue that having a gun is a good replacement for prayer.  On the nightstand I have two Bibles, Icons of Christ, St. Joseph, and St. George (the Icon of the Theotokos is in the car), two prayer books, my Cross (when I am sleeping), and a bottle of Holy Water.  Only one Tokarev.   Wink
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« Reply #101 on: January 18, 2012, 06:04:30 PM »

Of course, the United States' problem with technological infrastructure is sheer scale...which also largely the cause of many of the cultural phenomena within the United States that you pointed out baffles foreigners. Our cities are amongst the most advanced in the world but you're obviously not going to find the same level of development in Wyoming or west Texas.

That's it in a nutshell.  The places such as Wyoming and west Texas have an impact well beyond what is proportional to their population, economic impact or cultural value within American culture. 
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« Reply #102 on: January 18, 2012, 08:07:18 PM »

The greatest of empire and such is really only of importance to social science and academia.  I'm personally far more interested in where my quality of life would be higher.  Granted that is highly subjective, but I personally don't value a lot of things connected to the suburban dream in America.  I'd much rather spend my salary on cultural pursuits, travel and the like rather than cars and an oversized house miles from the city center.  I enjoy walking to work, excellent public transportation, living in an apartment in the city center, shopping at farmer's market rather than a supermarket, etc.  While I see that things are slowly changing in the US (and unfortunately are in Europe as well), I think it'd be difficult to live the lifestyle I really wanted to live.  From the outside the US is a curious mix of third world religious fanaticism and ignorance mixed some of the best technology and development of the world.     

There is a Starbucks in nearly every city in the US so people can talk about people who are beneath them.  Wink

Simply having personal preferences about quality of life doesn't make me think that I'm above other people. 

No, but I was more reacting to the mention of third world fanaticism and ignorance (vague) in the US.
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« Reply #103 on: January 18, 2012, 11:43:56 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Y'all sure do love the movies, unfortunately life is no action packed thriller.  Shootings are not romantic, they are a tragedy.  Perhaps I am a bit to personally acquanted with gun violence to see where y'all are coming from, but I see nothing honorable in shooting another person, even in self-defense. If folks are pushed to such an extreme, surely these should be grateful to God for His mercy and repentant in having been forced by circumstance to violence, rather than romanticize and glorify gun violence in self-defense as if this were the wild west or a dual.

Life is real y'all, realer than the movies, and bullets hurt and sometimes they even kill.

Its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No s... bullets hurt and kill.  The question is, which hurts more?  Would you rather see innocent people get killed?  Because that's what you get.  The Von Maur shooting Punch mentioned took place in an Omaha mall.  A gun-free zone, supposedly.  Eight people died.  The poor pizza boy who got stabbed over $20 in an apartment's parking lot - I worked with him for a short time before getting fired.  He was unarmed. 

When a man out to do evil is killed it is a tragedy in that he has lost his chance at repentance, but that is of his own volition.  No one asked these people to walk into stores shooting innocent people.  No one asked for that.  No one wanted that.  I am thankful that there are people out there that care enough for their fellow human beings to stand up and help them when all their instincts are telling them that they should run and preserve their own lives.

Sometimes the greatest evil is when supposedly good men don't act to stop evil.  Anyone who tries to aide the evil in their crimes by making it easier for them are complicit in their crimes.

Matt and I used to shoot with the fellow that took out the two perps at Walgreens (one permanantly).  It tells a lot when you see how divided the community was over this.  The North Omaha crowd saying excessive force was used, and the poor perp was just trying to "turn his life around".  Meanwhile, the poor clerk that had the shotgun pointed at her, as well as her family and many of the other customers there were full of praise for the "gun nut" who evidentally watches too many movies.  The perp really did "turn his life around" after the first of four .40 S&W slugs hit him . . . literally.  All the prayers of the "Enough is Enough" crowd have done nothing.  But Benson has been pretty quiet after the Walgreens shooting, and the two perps gunned down at Benson Pawn (one dead and the other in a wheel chair for the rest of his life). 

And there was the poor guy who ran the Grillz and Jewelry shop, who really was trying to turn his life around (all involved had criminal records).  Four perps drove up.  Three got out of the car.  Two came into the shop while one guarded the door outside.  Two shots were fired at the owner by a perp who probably did not understand that the sights are on the top of the gun and not the side for a reason.  Thanks to this, both missed the store owner, who grabbed an SKS carbine that he kept behind the counter and killed the two perps in the store, injured the one guarding the door (shot through the door), and probably caused a skivies check for the driver (named "Light Bright") who got away.  It would just be another night in Omaha if it were not for the irony of it all.  One of the perps was there supposedly to pick up a set of grillz so he could attend the funeral of a friend who was killed in an attempted robbery.  The injured guy was shot previously by police for pulling a gun on them (why is he out of prison?  Why is he still alive?) You would think these people would learn not to mess with people who watch too many movies.
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« Reply #104 on: January 19, 2012, 02:00:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!






Matt and I used to shoot with the fellow that took out the two perps at Walgreens (one permanantly).  It tells a lot when you see how divided the community was over this.  The North Omaha crowd saying excessive force was used, and the poor perp was just trying to "turn his life around".  Meanwhile, the poor clerk that had the shotgun pointed at her, as well as her family and many of the other customers there were full of praise for the "gun nut" who evidentally watches too many movies.  The perp really did "turn his life around" after the first of four .40 S&W slugs hit him . . . literally.  All the prayers of the "Enough is Enough" crowd have done nothing.  But Benson has been pretty quiet after the Walgreens shooting, and the two perps gunned down at Benson Pawn (one dead and the other in a wheel chair for the rest of his life).  

You would think these people would learn not to mess with people who watch too many movies.

Dude, you watch to many movies for real.  Wallgreens policy is NOT to shoot at or draw down on robbers, but to let the robbery go down, and let the insurance cover the loss, because for real, what would have happened had that vigilante accidentally shot and killed that cashier he was trying to save? Leave shoot outs for the law, when I'm in a convenient store, if some folks come in guns out to rob the place, that last thing I want to worry about is if I'm going to get caught up in the cross fire by some wanna-be hero.  Again, its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #105 on: January 19, 2012, 02:43:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!






Matt and I used to shoot with the fellow that took out the two perps at Walgreens (one permanantly).  It tells a lot when you see how divided the community was over this.  The North Omaha crowd saying excessive force was used, and the poor perp was just trying to "turn his life around".  Meanwhile, the poor clerk that had the shotgun pointed at her, as well as her family and many of the other customers there were full of praise for the "gun nut" who evidentally watches too many movies.  The perp really did "turn his life around" after the first of four .40 S&W slugs hit him . . . literally.  All the prayers of the "Enough is Enough" crowd have done nothing.  But Benson has been pretty quiet after the Walgreens shooting, and the two perps gunned down at Benson Pawn (one dead and the other in a wheel chair for the rest of his life).  

You would think these people would learn not to mess with people who watch too many movies.

Dude, you watch to many movies for real.  Wallgreens policy is NOT to shoot at or draw down on robbers, but to let the robbery go down, and let the insurance cover the loss, because for real, what would have happened had that vigilante accidentally shot and killed that cashier he was trying to save? Leave shoot outs for the law, when I'm in a convenient store, if some folks come in guns out to rob the place, that last thing I want to worry about is if I'm going to get caught up in the cross fire by some wanna-be hero.  Again, its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Habte, as a side note, do you personally know the man who shot the crook at Walgreens?  If not, then your characterizations of him are overly judgmental and not based on fact. 

(I only bring this up because two of us have actually met the man in RL.)

For what it's worth, Walgreens policy of letting insurance attempt to replace killed or maimed loved ones is a moot point.  He was shopping there, not employed there.  Thank God that he was more concerned for his life and for the lives of others than he was in the monetary costs of liability.

As for leaving shoot outs to the law, where were they when this happened?  What did they do to stop it?  (I realize it is ridiculous to think that police can be in all places and at all times.  This is why I believe people should be allowed the means to defend themselves for those times when a police officer is not present.) 
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« Reply #106 on: January 19, 2012, 03:11:16 PM »

Quote
Again, its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners
For someone who is so anti-gun, you sure know alot about the gun owners...they're all itchy-fingered. Proof?

Quote
Leave shoot outs for the law, when I'm in a convenient store, if some folks come in guns out to rob the place, that last thing I want to worry about is if I'm going to get caught up in the cross fire by some wanna-be hero
Well, since more and more the robbers arent just taking money but killing witnesses, this isn't the case. If someone pulls a gun and tries to rob someone, the criminal is taking his/her life in their hands. I will protect myself. you wanna be a victime, be my guest. I'll be going home to my family.

PP

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« Reply #107 on: January 19, 2012, 03:40:05 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Habte, as a side note, do you personally know the man who shot the crook at Walgreens?  If not, then your characterizations of him are overly judgmental and not based on fact.  

(I only bring this up because two of us have actually met the man in RL.)

For what it's worth, Walgreens policy of letting insurance attempt to replace killed or maimed loved ones is a moot point.  He was shopping there, not employed there.  Thank God that he was more concerned for his life and for the lives of others than he was in the monetary costs of liability.

As for leaving shoot outs to the law, where were they when this happened?  What did they do to stop it?  (I realize it is ridiculous to think that police can be in all places and at all times.  This is why I believe people should be allowed the means to defend themselves for those times when a police officer is not present.)  

I apologize, that snap was not intended for the Wallgreen's shooter so much as folks here who have expressed several comments that are in my opinion a bit overzealous about "defending themselves" as if honestly they were looking for an opportunity Sad

Again, you missed my point.  What would have happened if this vigilante had accidentally shot or even killed the Wallgreen's cashier or some other customers?


Quote
Leave shoot outs for the law, when I'm in a convenient store, if some folks come in guns out to rob the place, that last thing I want to worry about is if I'm going to get caught up in the cross fire by some wanna-be hero
Well, since more and more the robbers arent just taking money but killing witnesses, this isn't the case. If someone pulls a gun and tries to rob someone, the criminal is taking his/her life in their hands. I will protect myself. you wanna be a victime, be my guest. I'll be going home to my family.

PP



What I don't want to be is the victim of a shoot out by a vigilante.  


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #108 on: January 19, 2012, 03:57:51 PM »

Quote
What would have happened if this vigilante had accidentally shot or even killed the Wallgreen's cashier or some other customers?
I answer your question with this, is it any different than a cop accidentally shooting someone?

Anyways, the instances of this happening are extraordinarily rare. using what-if's to legitimize things is dangerous. In fact abortion supporters do the same thing. It doesnt make them right either.

What is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. It is my responsibility to protect my family as I see fit. If someone enters my home to break in, I will defend my family.

This has nothing to do with a non-argument like a movie. Using that is simply because as usual, you have no facts for your argument. Simply more emotionally based nonsense.

However, its your business how you want to protect your family. Dont take away my way to do so.

Someone pulling a gun on someone attacking them with a gun is not a vigilante. Said person then going somewhere to start attacking suspected drug pushers or rapists with no provocation IS being a vigilante.

PP
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« Reply #109 on: January 19, 2012, 04:04:07 PM »

I understand where you are coming from in that regard, but I think the chances are very slim.  I also think that the usage of the word 'vigilante' is charged and unfair.  A vigilante is out looking for a criminal, not defending themselves from imminent attack.  

I don't know what would have happened if a bystander had been hit.  To date in Omaha we have had as many shark attacks as we've had innocent people killed by lawful CCW holders.  So I really don't have much of a basis for debating this.  In this instance only a few rounds were fired and all hit their mark.
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« Reply #110 on: January 19, 2012, 04:15:43 PM »

I understand where you are coming from in that regard, but I think the chances are very slim.

I don't know what would have happened if a bystander had been hit.  

Thank you for understanding, and lets just marinate on that last part for a minute then.

Quote
What would have happened if this vigilante had accidentally shot or even killed the Wallgreen's cashier or some other customers?
I answer your question with this, is it any different than a cop accidentally shooting someone?


Does it somehow make it all alright when police accidentally kill people? Funny, the dead folks and their loved ones might disagree Sad

Let me reiterate my point, I am not trying to convince y'all to necessarily get rid of your guns so much as to have a much less bravado approach to self-defense, some folks seem to be expressing a "I wish somebody would try something" mentality, and that it is what makes me anxious.  I'm just trying to ground this discussion in all possible realities, be it a wild-card bet or not, IF someone accidentally gets shot and killed that is part of the equation of having guns in our society.  This is precisely why in California we have limited carrying laws, and the official position of Los Angeles County Law enforcement is to disagree with folks carrying firearms, they feel it makes their job that much harder.

Quote
"Carrying guns openly in public is most certainly a recipe for disaster — Los Angeles police officers would certainly detain more people with guns which is always dangerous, and I'm glad that doesn't have to happen.

"On the Seal Beach piece [referring to the mass shooting in Seal Beach], that is an awful tragedy that point out just what it means to be living in a society that is armed as well as this one is. It turns a whim into reality, it turn random thoughts into distinct violence. And it's an awful cost of being so well armed."
LAPD Chief Charlie Beck

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #111 on: January 19, 2012, 04:21:52 PM »

I understand where you are coming from in that regard, but I think the chances are very slim.

I don't know what would have happened if a bystander had been hit.  

Thank you for understanding, and lets just marinate on that last part for a minute then.

Quote
What would have happened if this vigilante had accidentally shot or even killed the Wallgreen's cashier or some other customers?
I answer your question with this, is it any different than a cop accidentally shooting someone?


Does it somehow make it all alright when police accidentally kill people? Funny, the dead folks and their loved ones might disagree Sad

Let me reiterate my point, I am not trying to convince y'all to necessarily get rid of your guns so much as to have a much less bravado approach to self-defense, some folks seem to be expressing a "I wish somebody would try something" mentality, and that it is what makes me anxious.  I'm just trying to ground this discussion in all possible realities, be it a wild-card bet or not, IF someone accidentally gets shot and killed that is part of the equation of having guns in our society.  This is precisely why in California we have limited carrying laws, and the official position of Los Angeles County Law enforcement is to disagree with folks carrying firearms, they feel it makes their job that much harder.

Quote
"Carrying guns openly in public is most certainly a recipe for disaster — Los Angeles police officers would certainly detain more people with guns which is always dangerous, and I'm glad that doesn't have to happen.

"On the Seal Beach piece [referring to the mass shooting in Seal Beach], that is an awful tragedy that point out just what it means to be living in a society that is armed as well as this one is. It turns a whim into reality, it turn random thoughts into distinct violence. And it's an awful cost of being so well armed."
LAPD Chief Charlie Beck

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Quote
This is precisely why in California we have limited carrying laws, and the official position of Los Angeles County Law enforcement is to disagree with folks carrying firearms, they feel it makes their job that much harder
Which has done exactly nothing about gun violence in California. Only law-abiders will put their guns away when told to. You dont need to worry about law-abiders in the first place.

The facts have been provided more than a few times ion this site. By myself and others concerning gun laws. They are conveniently ignored for more emotion friendly arguments. The facts are very simple. Gun control does not reduce gun crime. I know facts are pesky things, but there they are.

PP
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« Reply #112 on: January 19, 2012, 04:27:18 PM »

**Bah, wont let me modify, sorry***

I'll give you an example. In my state of VA, gun crimes have changed a great deal since the state made it easier to get a gun.

Gun crimes have been unchanged or even increased in places where guns are either locally restricted, or have low ownership (Richmond area, northern VA)

However, gun crimes have dramatically gone down (and in some cases virtually disappeared) where legal gun ownership has increased (central, western, and southern Virginia).

State regulations for Virginia are some of the most lax in the country:

Quote
•Permit to purchase rifles and shotguns? No.

•Registration of rifles and shotguns? No.

•Licensing of owners of rifles and shotguns? No.

•Permit to carry rifles and shotguns? No.
Handguns
•Permit to purchase handgun? No.

•Registration of handguns? No.

•Licensing of owners of handguns? No.

•Permit to carry handguns? Yes. A permit is required if concealed.

PP
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« Reply #113 on: January 19, 2012, 04:30:05 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The facts are very simple. Gun control does not reduce gun crime. I know facts are pesky things, but there they are.

PP

Number of pistols sold in California from 1980-1989: FOUR MILLION

Number of homicides committed in Los Angeles County alone in 1992: almost 3000

Number of pistols sold in California AFTER gun-control laws from 1999-2009: TWO MILLION

Number of homicides committed in Los Angeles County alone in 2011: around 600

Excuse me brother, but facts really are pesky things aren't they Wink

Again, I'm done arguing, if y'all want guns, have em, but PLEASE be responsible.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #114 on: January 19, 2012, 04:34:12 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The facts are very simple. Gun control does not reduce gun crime. I know facts are pesky things, but there they are.

PP

Number of pistols sold in California from 1980-1989: FOUR MILLION

Number of homicides committed in Los Angeles County alone in 1992: almost 3000

Number of pistols sold in California AFTER gun-control laws from 1999-2009: TWO MILLION

Number of homicides committed in Los Angeles County alone in 2011: around 600

Excuse me brother, but facts really are pesky things aren't they Wink

Again, I'm done arguing, if y'all want guns, have em, but PLEASE be responsible.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
What percentage of those crimes were done by the legal owner of the weapon?

PP
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« Reply #115 on: January 19, 2012, 04:58:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Quote
In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales.
Quote
The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers.

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According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."

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Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #116 on: January 19, 2012, 05:02:33 PM »

Im not trying to re-start an argument, but I'd rather hear what a governmental agency has to say. PBS isn't exactly an unbiased source. Thats like me referencing Fox News or MSNBC concerning stuff like this.

PP
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« Reply #117 on: January 20, 2012, 09:34:08 PM »

I could not express it better myself:


"The Gun Is Civilization" by Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason  and
force.  If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of
either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding
under threat of force.  Every human interaction falls into one of
those two categories,
without exception.  Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact
through persuasion.
Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction and the
only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm,
as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use
reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your
threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on
equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal
footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on
equal footing with a carload of drunken guys with baseball bats.  The
gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers
between a
potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad
force equations.  These are the people who think that we'd be more
civilized if
all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier
for an [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if
the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or
by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's
potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the
young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a
civilized society.  A mugger, even an armed one, can only
make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him
a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal
that otherwise would only result in injury.  This argument is
fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are
won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on
the loser.

People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute
lethal force, watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come
out of it with a bloody lip at worst.  The fact that the gun makes
lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not
the stronger attacker.  If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an
octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter.  It simply
wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal
and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight,
but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means
that I cannot be forced, only persuaded.  I don't carry it because I'm
afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid.  It doesn't limit
the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only
the actions of those who would do so by force.  It removes force from
the equation... and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret.)

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