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Author Topic: America goes on an apparent gun buying spree  (Read 3533 times) Average Rating: 0
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ChristusDominus
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« on: January 11, 2012, 01:07:54 AM »

FBI performs a record number of back ground checks for firearm purchases

For their own reasons, Americans went out to buy a record number of firearms this past year of 2011. The FBI performed a record number of instant background checks on would-be firearm buyers. Furthermore, during the holiday season, there was an uptick in sales. FBI officials say gun dealers requested more than 1.5 million background checks last December. A third of those checks were requested in the last six days leading up to Christmas.


http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=44316

other source: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/05/9983727-fbi-firearm-purchases-shoot-up-in-2011
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 01:18:18 AM by ChristusDominus » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2012, 01:45:29 AM »

I think it has something to do with people preparing for that 2012 end of the world stuff, TBH
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ChristusDominus
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2012, 02:31:13 AM »

A Mayan conspiracy? I'm tellin' ya.. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2012, 02:51:02 AM »

A Mayan conspiracy? I'm tellin' ya.. Roll Eyes

I'm telling ya, people are nuts, I was watching a show about people building bunkers and stuff on NatGeo.
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2012, 10:16:31 AM »

A Mayan conspiracy? I'm tellin' ya.. Roll Eyes

I'm telling ya, people are nuts, I was watching a show about people building bunkers and stuff on NatGeo.

You should come over sometime and see mine.  It has a jacuzzi and a mini fridge right between two of the machinegun ports.  It's pretty slick!


This story makes me sad.  I've only had the money to buy one gun this year.   Cry
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2012, 12:07:51 PM »

I enjoy my guns.  Love going out to the shooting range.  I dont go too often though as ammo is expensive these days!

As for why the sales went up... Im not sure. It could be "end of the world" garbage or it could be theyre afraid that a certain politician may take them away.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 12:09:19 PM by Timon » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2012, 05:11:36 PM »

I enjoy my guns.  Love going out to the shooting range.  I dont go too often though as ammo is expensive these days!

As for why the sales went up... Im not sure. It could be "end of the world" garbage or it could be theyre afraid that a certain politician may take them away.



Actually that may be it lol
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2012, 05:28:15 PM »

Im gettin one here soon. Not for the mayan crap though.

PP
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2012, 05:28:55 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

God Bless California, which has been brave enough to legislate strict gun-control regulations which have literally saved our state from the pitfalls of gun-violence which peaked in the early 1990s.  When I was a kid, you could find gun shops all over town, and you could buy pistols at discount department stores...

Needless to say we had a lot of gun-violence.  The  secret about guns in America is that ALL the illegal guns used by criminals are stolen from legitimate dealers, retailers, collectors, and whole-sale distributors.  In 2009 the Department of Justice revealed that over 30,000 firearms alone were reported missing by American gun sellers, AND THOSE ARE JUST WHAT IS REPORTED!! I can only imagine how many simply slipped through the cracks.

Gun ownership and access is a double-edged sword, which we must taken with the Grace of God.  It is a responsibility which we must take to heart in prayer, just as all other aspects of the freedom of free-will, no human event or circumstance is without consequences.  If we manufacture and distribute guns, inevitably those people who we don't want to have firearms will gain access.  California's model has proven that if you limit fire-arm access in general, you reduce the number of illegal guns on the street and you save lives.  It is a fallacy to say that American citizens need guns to protect themselves from armed criminals, because it is a circular argument, as the illegal guns are stolen or bought from the very same legitimate  owners and dealers.  It is a catch-22 Sad

I respect people's right to own firearms, but folks must be reasonable and not over-enthusiastic, we should remember guns are tools, but they are tools precisely designed to harm, and should be then taken with grave responsibility and all-seriousness. After all, what really is the legitimate use of a pistol in the first place? Rifles I understand, but pistols?

My testimony as a Californian is that gun-control works, folks can debate this with me all they'd like, but the reality of the crime on our streets being reduced speaks volumes for itself.  


Sorry for the politics but this issue is very personal to me, several of my friends and family have either bullet holes or even the bullets still remaining in their bodies, and several others are dead and buried in the cemetery God Rest Their Souls..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2012, 05:37:52 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

God Bless California, which has been brave enough to legislate strict gun-control regulations which have literally saved our state from the pitfalls of gun-violence which peaked in the early 1990s.  When I was a kid, you could find gun shops all over town, and you could buy pistols at discount department stores...

Needless to say we had a lot of gun-violence.  The  secret about guns in America is that ALL the illegal guns used by criminals are stolen from legitimate dealers, retailers, collectors, and whole-sale distributors.  In 2009 the Department of Justice revealed that over 30,000 firearms alone were reported missing by American gun sellers, AND THOSE ARE JUST WHAT IS REPORTED!! I can only imagine how many simply slipped through the cracks.

Gun ownership and access is a double-edged sword, which we must taken with the Grace of God.  It is a responsibility which we must take to heart in prayer, just as all other aspects of the freedom of free-will, no human event or circumstance is without consequences.  If we manufacture and distribute guns, inevitably those people who we don't want to have firearms will gain access.  California's model has proven that if you limit fire-arm access in general, you reduce the number of illegal guns on the street and you save lives.  It is a fallacy to say that American citizens need guns to protect themselves from armed criminals, because it is a circular argument, as the illegal guns are stolen or bought from the very same legitimate  owners and dealers.  It is a catch-22 Sad

I respect people's right to own firearms, but folks must be reasonable and not over-enthusiastic, we should remember guns are tools, but they are tools precisely designed to harm, and should be then taken with grave responsibility and all-seriousness. After all, what really is the legitimate use of a pistol in the first place? Rifles I understand, but pistols?

My testimony as a Californian is that gun-control works, folks can debate this with me all they'd like, but the reality of the crime on our streets being reduced speaks volumes for itself.  


Sorry for the politics but this issue is very personal to me, several of my friends and family have either bullet holes or even the bullets still remaining in their bodies, and several others are dead and buried in the cemetery God Rest Their Souls..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Well thank God I can still buy a gun at my local Wal-Mart and flea market.

PP
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2012, 05:41:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

God Bless California, which has been brave enough to legislate strict gun-control regulations which have literally saved our state from the pitfalls of gun-violence which peaked in the early 1990s.  When I was a kid, you could find gun shops all over town, and you could buy pistols at discount department stores...

Needless to say we had a lot of gun-violence.  The  secret about guns in America is that ALL the illegal guns used by criminals are stolen from legitimate dealers, retailers, collectors, and whole-sale distributors.  In 2009 the Department of Justice revealed that over 30,000 firearms alone were reported missing by American gun sellers, AND THOSE ARE JUST WHAT IS REPORTED!! I can only imagine how many simply slipped through the cracks.

Gun ownership and access is a double-edged sword, which we must taken with the Grace of God.  It is a responsibility which we must take to heart in prayer, just as all other aspects of the freedom of free-will, no human event or circumstance is without consequences.  If we manufacture and distribute guns, inevitably those people who we don't want to have firearms will gain access.  California's model has proven that if you limit fire-arm access in general, you reduce the number of illegal guns on the street and you save lives.  It is a fallacy to say that American citizens need guns to protect themselves from armed criminals, because it is a circular argument, as the illegal guns are stolen or bought from the very same legitimate  owners and dealers.  It is a catch-22 Sad

I respect people's right to own firearms, but folks must be reasonable and not over-enthusiastic, we should remember guns are tools, but they are tools precisely designed to harm, and should be then taken with grave responsibility and all-seriousness. After all, what really is the legitimate use of a pistol in the first place? Rifles I understand, but pistols?

My testimony as a Californian is that gun-control works, folks can debate this with me all they'd like, but the reality of the crime on our streets being reduced speaks volumes for itself.  


Sorry for the politics but this issue is very personal to me, several of my friends and family have either bullet holes or even the bullets still remaining in their bodies, and several others are dead and buried in the cemetery God Rest Their Souls..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Well thank God I can still buy a gun at my local Wal-Mart and flea market.

PP

and I pray to God no one steals it and uses it to harm or even kill another American youth.

Please, feel free to exercise your Constitutional rights, but appeal to you as a brother in Christ, do it responsibly and like all matters in life, handle with prayer.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2012, 05:49:51 PM »

Quote
Well thank God I can still buy a gun at my local Wal-Mart and flea market.

agreed.

dont get me wrong... im certainly an anti violence guy.  i have guns, but i cant ever imagine using them on anyone for any reason. (the only possible exception would be if someone was getting ready to harm my wife or kids... but i hate to even think about that...) for me, its a hobby. theyre fun to shoot in the woods, or at a controlled shooting range.  i have friends though who are just waiting for someone to break into their homes so they can legally use a gun and rid the world of another thug.  i dont think this way.  if someone tried to steal my tv, or car, i wouldnt kill them over it. thats just silly to me, and isnt compatible with the teachings of Christ. 

im not going to try to argue with Habte's point, manily because i dont like to argue. (especially about any topic that could be remotely political) However, I do think that regardless of how strict the gun control laws are, you will always have thugs who have access to guns.  Thugs or criminals dont care about the law, so I doubt they would care about any gun control laws.  And I dont think, even with the recent fears of this, that our constitution would ever allow the government to truly get rid of all the guns.
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2012, 06:01:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

However, I do think that regardless of how strict the gun control laws are, you will always have thugs who have access to guns.  Thugs or criminals dont care about the law, so I doubt they would care about any gun control laws.  And I dont think, even with the recent fears of this, that our constitution would ever allow the government to truly get rid of all the guns.

But you misunderstand the fundamental premise behind gun control, which is to limit the over-all manufacturing and distribution of firearms by putting limits and restrictions on the market. Criminals steal their guns from the same places honest folks buy them, and that precisely is the problem and precisely what gun-control is designed to restrict, OVERALL distribution.  True, criminals will always find weapons, but that is why we as a society try our best to restrict and limit such in the first place.  If there are less guns out there, there are less guns to steal.  Again, recall that 30,000 alone are reported "missing" from honest and legitimate retailers, clearly there needs to be some more measures of control.  That is control, not necessarily elimination.  Folks are rightfully upset over the fiasco of the ATF operation Fast and Furious were just a handful of guns were intentionally released to criminals and big surprise, not only did innocent people get killed but even a federal law enforcement officer by these exact same missing firearms!! If only a relative handful of missing weapons did that much damage and loss of life, imagine what harm 30,000 could do and have done already?

 No one is suggesting no Americans shouldn't necessarily have access to fire-arms, the question is one of over-all quantity.

Again, sorry to be political, but as I said before, this is a deeply personal issue for me, my family, and my community at large.  God Bless the Souls of those departed by this plague of gun-violence,  May He guide us by His Spirit to be as responsible as we weak human beings can be.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 06:07:18 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2012, 06:48:08 PM »

America has a bizarre culture. 
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2012, 08:18:27 PM »

Guns?

Who needs guns? Need ammo....
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2012, 08:31:11 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

God Bless California, which has been brave enough to legislate strict gun-control regulations which have literally saved our state from the pitfalls of gun-violence which peaked in the early 1990s.  When I was a kid, you could find gun shops all over town, and you could buy pistols at discount department stores...

Needless to say we had a lot of gun-violence.  The  secret about guns in America is that ALL the illegal guns used by criminals are stolen from legitimate dealers, retailers, collectors, and whole-sale distributors.  In 2009 the Department of Justice revealed that over 30,000 firearms alone were reported missing by American gun sellers, AND THOSE ARE JUST WHAT IS REPORTED!! I can only imagine how many simply slipped through the cracks.

Gun ownership and access is a double-edged sword, which we must taken with the Grace of God.  It is a responsibility which we must take to heart in prayer, just as all other aspects of the freedom of free-will, no human event or circumstance is without consequences.  If we manufacture and distribute guns, inevitably those people who we don't want to have firearms will gain access.  California's model has proven that if you limit fire-arm access in general, you reduce the number of illegal guns on the street and you save lives.  It is a fallacy to say that American citizens need guns to protect themselves from armed criminals, because it is a circular argument, as the illegal guns are stolen or bought from the very same legitimate  owners and dealers.  It is a catch-22 Sad

I respect people's right to own firearms, but folks must be reasonable and not over-enthusiastic, we should remember guns are tools, but they are tools precisely designed to harm, and should be then taken with grave responsibility and all-seriousness. After all, what really is the legitimate use of a pistol in the first place? Rifles I understand, but pistols?

My testimony as a Californian is that gun-control works, folks can debate this with me all they'd like, but the reality of the crime on our streets being reduced speaks volumes for itself.  


Sorry for the politics but this issue is very personal to me, several of my friends and family have either bullet holes or even the bullets still remaining in their bodies, and several others are dead and buried in the cemetery God Rest Their Souls..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Well thank God I can still buy a gun at my local Wal-Mart and flea market.

PP

It's not nearly as bad as he makes it sound in California, I've bought 3 guns over the last year and other than the annoying 10 day waiting period and some plain weird restrictions on handguns (my brother had to buy a black M1911 last year because for some reason the stainless model wasn't available in California...exact same gun and same manufacturer...go figure) it's not really that bad. Even most the restrictions on assault weapons have either expired or are easily circumvented and gun shows are still alive and well, they just need a local gun dealer to be present to rubber-stamp all the deals. I'd like fewer gun laws, but it's not exactly like we're living in England.
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2012, 08:46:05 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

God Bless California, which has been brave enough to legislate strict gun-control regulations which have literally saved our state from the pitfalls of gun-violence which peaked in the early 1990s.  When I was a kid, you could find gun shops all over town, and you could buy pistols at discount department stores...

Needless to say we had a lot of gun-violence.  The  secret about guns in America is that ALL the illegal guns used by criminals are stolen from legitimate dealers, retailers, collectors, and whole-sale distributors.  In 2009 the Department of Justice revealed that over 30,000 firearms alone were reported missing by American gun sellers, AND THOSE ARE JUST WHAT IS REPORTED!! I can only imagine how many simply slipped through the cracks.

Gun ownership and access is a double-edged sword, which we must taken with the Grace of God.  It is a responsibility which we must take to heart in prayer, just as all other aspects of the freedom of free-will, no human event or circumstance is without consequences.  If we manufacture and distribute guns, inevitably those people who we don't want to have firearms will gain access.  California's model has proven that if you limit fire-arm access in general, you reduce the number of illegal guns on the street and you save lives.  It is a fallacy to say that American citizens need guns to protect themselves from armed criminals, because it is a circular argument, as the illegal guns are stolen or bought from the very same legitimate  owners and dealers.  It is a catch-22 Sad

I respect people's right to own firearms, but folks must be reasonable and not over-enthusiastic, we should remember guns are tools, but they are tools precisely designed to harm, and should be then taken with grave responsibility and all-seriousness. After all, what really is the legitimate use of a pistol in the first place? Rifles I understand, but pistols?

My testimony as a Californian is that gun-control works, folks can debate this with me all they'd like, but the reality of the crime on our streets being reduced speaks volumes for itself.  


Sorry for the politics but this issue is very personal to me, several of my friends and family have either bullet holes or even the bullets still remaining in their bodies, and several others are dead and buried in the cemetery God Rest Their Souls..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Well thank God I can still buy a gun at my local Wal-Mart and flea market.

PP

It's not nearly as bad as he makes it sound in California, I've bought 3 guns over the last year and other than the annoying 10 day waiting period and some plain weird restrictions on handguns (my brother had to buy a black M1911 last year because for some reason the stainless model wasn't available in California...exact same gun and same manufacturer...go figure) it's not really that bad. Even most the restrictions on assault weapons have either expired or are easily circumvented and gun shows are still alive and well, they just need a local gun dealer to be present to rubber-stamp all the deals. I'd like fewer gun laws, but it's not exactly like we're living in England.

I don't understand by what you mean by "makes it sound in California" because I never said anything in that quote or in any other posts other then that existing gun-control laws work, I never suggested anything about the extent or details of the laws, only reiterated that they have indeed effectively served their purpose by successfully limiting gun purchases and in correlation subsequent gun-violence.  The numbers speak for themselves..

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0816firearms0816.html
http://www.lcav.org/states/california.asp
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_brady_bill.

Again, I have no problems with Americans lawfully owning fire-arms, and gun-control is a matter of limiting the supply side which in turn has trickled down and consistently reduced gun-violence.  All y'all Americans who want to own guns are surely free to express your Constitutional rights, however there are appropriate laws already in effect which define the extent of these rights, and I feel they are excellent laws.

In 1992 there were over 3000 homicides in Los Angeles County alone, and in 2011 there were just over 1000.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2012, 08:54:50 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

God Bless California, which has been brave enough to legislate strict gun-control regulations which have literally saved our state from the pitfalls of gun-violence which peaked in the early 1990s.  When I was a kid, you could find gun shops all over town, and you could buy pistols at discount department stores...

Needless to say we had a lot of gun-violence.  The  secret about guns in America is that ALL the illegal guns used by criminals are stolen from legitimate dealers, retailers, collectors, and whole-sale distributors.  In 2009 the Department of Justice revealed that over 30,000 firearms alone were reported missing by American gun sellers, AND THOSE ARE JUST WHAT IS REPORTED!! I can only imagine how many simply slipped through the cracks.

Gun ownership and access is a double-edged sword, which we must taken with the Grace of God.  It is a responsibility which we must take to heart in prayer, just as all other aspects of the freedom of free-will, no human event or circumstance is without consequences.  If we manufacture and distribute guns, inevitably those people who we don't want to have firearms will gain access.  California's model has proven that if you limit fire-arm access in general, you reduce the number of illegal guns on the street and you save lives.  It is a fallacy to say that American citizens need guns to protect themselves from armed criminals, because it is a circular argument, as the illegal guns are stolen or bought from the very same legitimate  owners and dealers.  It is a catch-22 Sad

I respect people's right to own firearms, but folks must be reasonable and not over-enthusiastic, we should remember guns are tools, but they are tools precisely designed to harm, and should be then taken with grave responsibility and all-seriousness. After all, what really is the legitimate use of a pistol in the first place? Rifles I understand, but pistols?

My testimony as a Californian is that gun-control works, folks can debate this with me all they'd like, but the reality of the crime on our streets being reduced speaks volumes for itself.  


Sorry for the politics but this issue is very personal to me, several of my friends and family have either bullet holes or even the bullets still remaining in their bodies, and several others are dead and buried in the cemetery God Rest Their Souls..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Well thank God I can still buy a gun at my local Wal-Mart and flea market.

PP

It's not nearly as bad as he makes it sound in California, I've bought 3 guns over the last year and other than the annoying 10 day waiting period and some plain weird restrictions on handguns (my brother had to buy a black M1911 last year because for some reason the stainless model wasn't available in California...exact same gun and same manufacturer...go figure) it's not really that bad. Even most the restrictions on assault weapons have either expired or are easily circumvented and gun shows are still alive and well, they just need a local gun dealer to be present to rubber-stamp all the deals. I'd like fewer gun laws, but it's not exactly like we're living in England.

I don't understand by what you mean by "makes it sound in California" because I never said anything in that quote or in any other posts other then that existing gun-control laws work, I never suggested anything about the extent or details of the laws, only reiterated that they have indeed effectively served their purpose by successfully limiting gun purchases and in correlation subsequent gun-violence.  The numbers speak for themselves..

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0816firearms0816.html
http://www.lcav.org/states/california.asp
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_brady_bill.

Again, I have no problems with Americans lawfully owning fire-arms, and gun-control is a matter of limiting the supply side which in turn has trickled down and consistently reduced gun-violence.  All y'all Americans who want to own guns are surely free to express your Constitutional rights, however there are appropriate laws already in effect which define the extent of these rights, and I feel they are excellent laws.

In 1992 there were over 3000 homicides in Los Angeles County alone, and in 2011 there were just over 1000.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

My point is that gun laws in California are ineffective at curtailing distribution, I was just speaking of legal channels, but if I wanted an unregistered gun from Mexico with no serial number that's pretty easy to come by as well. You give these statistics yet ignore that crime rates are lower in areas where guns are more readily available to law abiding citizens. Personally, I think it is all cultural, they type of people who want to buy guns legally will vote for lax gun laws and happen to also be the kind of people who are law abiding citizens, those who get their guns from the black market and don't care about gun laws probably aren't law abiding citizens...generally speaking. Likewise a lot has changed culturally not only in L.A. but around the country over the last 20 years, to ignore all the complex motivations behind murder and suggest that violent crime rate is reduced because of gun laws is absurd for two reasons: first, it far too simplistic of an argument and, second, there are more guns out there and available today than there were in 1992.
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2012, 10:21:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

God Bless California, which has been brave enough to legislate strict gun-control regulations which have literally saved our state from the pitfalls of gun-violence which peaked in the early 1990s.  When I was a kid, you could find gun shops all over town, and you could buy pistols at discount department stores...

Needless to say we had a lot of gun-violence.  The  secret about guns in America is that ALL the illegal guns used by criminals are stolen from legitimate dealers, retailers, collectors, and whole-sale distributors.  In 2009 the Department of Justice revealed that over 30,000 firearms alone were reported missing by American gun sellers, AND THOSE ARE JUST WHAT IS REPORTED!! I can only imagine how many simply slipped through the cracks.

Gun ownership and access is a double-edged sword, which we must taken with the Grace of God.  It is a responsibility which we must take to heart in prayer, just as all other aspects of the freedom of free-will, no human event or circumstance is without consequences.  If we manufacture and distribute guns, inevitably those people who we don't want to have firearms will gain access.  California's model has proven that if you limit fire-arm access in general, you reduce the number of illegal guns on the street and you save lives.  It is a fallacy to say that American citizens need guns to protect themselves from armed criminals, because it is a circular argument, as the illegal guns are stolen or bought from the very same legitimate  owners and dealers.  It is a catch-22 Sad

I respect people's right to own firearms, but folks must be reasonable and not over-enthusiastic, we should remember guns are tools, but they are tools precisely designed to harm, and should be then taken with grave responsibility and all-seriousness. After all, what really is the legitimate use of a pistol in the first place? Rifles I understand, but pistols?

My testimony as a Californian is that gun-control works, folks can debate this with me all they'd like, but the reality of the crime on our streets being reduced speaks volumes for itself.  


Sorry for the politics but this issue is very personal to me, several of my friends and family have either bullet holes or even the bullets still remaining in their bodies, and several others are dead and buried in the cemetery God Rest Their Souls..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Well thank God I can still buy a gun at my local Wal-Mart and flea market.

PP

It's not nearly as bad as he makes it sound in California, I've bought 3 guns over the last year and other than the annoying 10 day waiting period and some plain weird restrictions on handguns (my brother had to buy a black M1911 last year because for some reason the stainless model wasn't available in California...exact same gun and same manufacturer...go figure) it's not really that bad. Even most the restrictions on assault weapons have either expired or are easily circumvented and gun shows are still alive and well, they just need a local gun dealer to be present to rubber-stamp all the deals. I'd like fewer gun laws, but it's not exactly like we're living in England.

I don't understand by what you mean by "makes it sound in California" because I never said anything in that quote or in any other posts other then that existing gun-control laws work, I never suggested anything about the extent or details of the laws, only reiterated that they have indeed effectively served their purpose by successfully limiting gun purchases and in correlation subsequent gun-violence.  The numbers speak for themselves..

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0816firearms0816.html
http://www.lcav.org/states/california.asp
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_brady_bill.

Again, I have no problems with Americans lawfully owning fire-arms, and gun-control is a matter of limiting the supply side which in turn has trickled down and consistently reduced gun-violence.  All y'all Americans who want to own guns are surely free to express your Constitutional rights, however there are appropriate laws already in effect which define the extent of these rights, and I feel they are excellent laws.

In 1992 there were over 3000 homicides in Los Angeles County alone, and in 2011 there were just over 1000.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

My point is that gun laws in California are ineffective at curtailing distribution, I was just speaking of legal channels, but if I wanted an unregistered gun from Mexico with no serial number that's pretty easy to come by as well. You give these statistics yet ignore that crime rates are lower in areas where guns are more readily available to law abiding citizens. Personally, I think it is all cultural, they type of people who want to buy guns legally will vote for lax gun laws and happen to also be the kind of people who are law abiding citizens, those who get their guns from the black market and don't care about gun laws probably aren't law abiding citizens...generally speaking. Likewise a lot has changed culturally not only in L.A. but around the country over the last 20 years, to ignore all the complex motivations behind murder and suggest that violent crime rate is reduced because of gun laws is absurd for two reasons: first, it far too simplistic of an argument and, second, there are more guns out there and available today than there were in 1992.

You are a logical thinker GIC. Too bad I am not having the pleasure of your company in the communion line.
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2012, 10:25:10 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

God Bless California, which has been brave enough to legislate strict gun-control regulations which have literally saved our state from the pitfalls of gun-violence which peaked in the early 1990s.  When I was a kid, you could find gun shops all over town, and you could buy pistols at discount department stores...

Needless to say we had a lot of gun-violence.  The  secret about guns in America is that ALL the illegal guns used by criminals are stolen from legitimate dealers, retailers, collectors, and whole-sale distributors.  In 2009 the Department of Justice revealed that over 30,000 firearms alone were reported missing by American gun sellers, AND THOSE ARE JUST WHAT IS REPORTED!! I can only imagine how many simply slipped through the cracks.

Gun ownership and access is a double-edged sword, which we must taken with the Grace of God.  It is a responsibility which we must take to heart in prayer, just as all other aspects of the freedom of free-will, no human event or circumstance is without consequences.  If we manufacture and distribute guns, inevitably those people who we don't want to have firearms will gain access.  California's model has proven that if you limit fire-arm access in general, you reduce the number of illegal guns on the street and you save lives.  It is a fallacy to say that American citizens need guns to protect themselves from armed criminals, because it is a circular argument, as the illegal guns are stolen or bought from the very same legitimate  owners and dealers.  It is a catch-22 Sad

I respect people's right to own firearms, but folks must be reasonable and not over-enthusiastic, we should remember guns are tools, but they are tools precisely designed to harm, and should be then taken with grave responsibility and all-seriousness. After all, what really is the legitimate use of a pistol in the first place? Rifles I understand, but pistols?

My testimony as a Californian is that gun-control works, folks can debate this with me all they'd like, but the reality of the crime on our streets being reduced speaks volumes for itself.  


Sorry for the politics but this issue is very personal to me, several of my friends and family have either bullet holes or even the bullets still remaining in their bodies, and several others are dead and buried in the cemetery God Rest Their Souls..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Well thank God I can still buy a gun at my local Wal-Mart and flea market.

PP

It's not nearly as bad as he makes it sound in California, I've bought 3 guns over the last year and other than the annoying 10 day waiting period and some plain weird restrictions on handguns (my brother had to buy a black M1911 last year because for some reason the stainless model wasn't available in California...exact same gun and same manufacturer...go figure) it's not really that bad. Even most the restrictions on assault weapons have either expired or are easily circumvented and gun shows are still alive and well, they just need a local gun dealer to be present to rubber-stamp all the deals. I'd like fewer gun laws, but it's not exactly like we're living in England.

I don't understand by what you mean by "makes it sound in California" because I never said anything in that quote or in any other posts other then that existing gun-control laws work, I never suggested anything about the extent or details of the laws, only reiterated that they have indeed effectively served their purpose by successfully limiting gun purchases and in correlation subsequent gun-violence.  The numbers speak for themselves..

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0816firearms0816.html
http://www.lcav.org/states/california.asp
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_brady_bill.

Again, I have no problems with Americans lawfully owning fire-arms, and gun-control is a matter of limiting the supply side which in turn has trickled down and consistently reduced gun-violence.  All y'all Americans who want to own guns are surely free to express your Constitutional rights, however there are appropriate laws already in effect which define the extent of these rights, and I feel they are excellent laws.

In 1992 there were over 3000 homicides in Los Angeles County alone, and in 2011 there were just over 1000.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


The top three states for gun murders in 2010 were, in order, California, Texas and New York. While Texas has lax gun control laws, California and New York are among the strictest gun-control states in the country.
 
“California is in a category of its own as far as gun control laws there,” Parsons said. “New York is a little bit better, but they still have discretionary concealed carry laws.”
 
According to FBI data, California had the most gun murders last year —- 1,257, which is 69 percent of all murders in 2010.


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/28/gun-crime-continues-to-decrease-despite-increase-in-gun-ownership/#ixzz1jCsl0Dxt

The FBI says that you are not telling the truth.
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2012, 10:53:43 PM »

I think it has something to do with people preparing for that 2012 end of the world stuff, TBH

I think it has more to do with people seeing their liberty threatened from their government and taking necessary steps to prevent it.
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2012, 11:45:46 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

God Bless California, which has been brave enough to legislate strict gun-control regulations which have literally saved our state from the pitfalls of gun-violence which peaked in the early 1990s.  When I was a kid, you could find gun shops all over town, and you could buy pistols at discount department stores...

Needless to say we had a lot of gun-violence.  The  secret about guns in America is that ALL the illegal guns used by criminals are stolen from legitimate dealers, retailers, collectors, and whole-sale distributors.  In 2009 the Department of Justice revealed that over 30,000 firearms alone were reported missing by American gun sellers, AND THOSE ARE JUST WHAT IS REPORTED!! I can only imagine how many simply slipped through the cracks.

Gun ownership and access is a double-edged sword, which we must taken with the Grace of God.  It is a responsibility which we must take to heart in prayer, just as all other aspects of the freedom of free-will, no human event or circumstance is without consequences.  If we manufacture and distribute guns, inevitably those people who we don't want to have firearms will gain access.  California's model has proven that if you limit fire-arm access in general, you reduce the number of illegal guns on the street and you save lives.  It is a fallacy to say that American citizens need guns to protect themselves from armed criminals, because it is a circular argument, as the illegal guns are stolen or bought from the very same legitimate  owners and dealers.  It is a catch-22 Sad

I respect people's right to own firearms, but folks must be reasonable and not over-enthusiastic, we should remember guns are tools, but they are tools precisely designed to harm, and should be then taken with grave responsibility and all-seriousness. After all, what really is the legitimate use of a pistol in the first place? Rifles I understand, but pistols?

My testimony as a Californian is that gun-control works, folks can debate this with me all they'd like, but the reality of the crime on our streets being reduced speaks volumes for itself.  


Sorry for the politics but this issue is very personal to me, several of my friends and family have either bullet holes or even the bullets still remaining in their bodies, and several others are dead and buried in the cemetery God Rest Their Souls..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Well thank God I can still buy a gun at my local Wal-Mart and flea market.

PP

It's not nearly as bad as he makes it sound in California, I've bought 3 guns over the last year and other than the annoying 10 day waiting period and some plain weird restrictions on handguns (my brother had to buy a black M1911 last year because for some reason the stainless model wasn't available in California...exact same gun and same manufacturer...go figure) it's not really that bad. Even most the restrictions on assault weapons have either expired or are easily circumvented and gun shows are still alive and well, they just need a local gun dealer to be present to rubber-stamp all the deals. I'd like fewer gun laws, but it's not exactly like we're living in England.

I don't understand by what you mean by "makes it sound in California" because I never said anything in that quote or in any other posts other then that existing gun-control laws work, I never suggested anything about the extent or details of the laws, only reiterated that they have indeed effectively served their purpose by successfully limiting gun purchases and in correlation subsequent gun-violence.  The numbers speak for themselves..

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0816firearms0816.html
http://www.lcav.org/states/california.asp
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_brady_bill.

Again, I have no problems with Americans lawfully owning fire-arms, and gun-control is a matter of limiting the supply side which in turn has trickled down and consistently reduced gun-violence.  All y'all Americans who want to own guns are surely free to express your Constitutional rights, however there are appropriate laws already in effect which define the extent of these rights, and I feel they are excellent laws.

In 1992 there were over 3000 homicides in Los Angeles County alone, and in 2011 there were just over 1000.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


The top three states for gun murders in 2010 were, in order, California, Texas and New York. While Texas has lax gun control laws, California and New York are among the strictest gun-control states in the country.
 
“California is in a category of its own as far as gun control laws there,” Parsons said. “New York is a little bit better, but they still have discretionary concealed carry laws.”
 
According to FBI data, California had the most gun murders last year —- 1,257, which is 69 percent of all murders in 2010.


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/28/gun-crime-continues-to-decrease-despite-increase-in-gun-ownership/#ixzz1jCsl0Dxt

The FBI says that you are not telling the truth.
Quote
Homicides in 1992 Set Record for L.A. County : Violence: 2,589 killings in 1992
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-01-05/local/me-819_1_los-angeles-county

Quote
The Homicide Report
THE TIMES CHRONICLES L.A. COUNTY HOMICIDE VICTIMS
Showing 624 homicides from Jan. 1, 2010 to Dec. 29, 2010
http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/map/?year=2010 (by the way you can read the names and stories behind all of these murders at this link Sad )
 
415% decrease over the past twenty years?

EVERY SINGLE DEATH IS AN ABSOLUTE TRAGEDY, AND EVERY SINGLE LIFE SAVED IS AN ABSOLUTE MIRACLE.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2012, 11:50:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

God Bless California, which has been brave enough to legislate strict gun-control regulations which have literally saved our state from the pitfalls of gun-violence which peaked in the early 1990s.  When I was a kid, you could find gun shops all over town, and you could buy pistols at discount department stores...

Needless to say we had a lot of gun-violence.  The  secret about guns in America is that ALL the illegal guns used by criminals are stolen from legitimate dealers, retailers, collectors, and whole-sale distributors.  In 2009 the Department of Justice revealed that over 30,000 firearms alone were reported missing by American gun sellers, AND THOSE ARE JUST WHAT IS REPORTED!! I can only imagine how many simply slipped through the cracks.

Gun ownership and access is a double-edged sword, which we must taken with the Grace of God.  It is a responsibility which we must take to heart in prayer, just as all other aspects of the freedom of free-will, no human event or circumstance is without consequences.  If we manufacture and distribute guns, inevitably those people who we don't want to have firearms will gain access.  California's model has proven that if you limit fire-arm access in general, you reduce the number of illegal guns on the street and you save lives.  It is a fallacy to say that American citizens need guns to protect themselves from armed criminals, because it is a circular argument, as the illegal guns are stolen or bought from the very same legitimate  owners and dealers.  It is a catch-22 Sad

I respect people's right to own firearms, but folks must be reasonable and not over-enthusiastic, we should remember guns are tools, but they are tools precisely designed to harm, and should be then taken with grave responsibility and all-seriousness. After all, what really is the legitimate use of a pistol in the first place? Rifles I understand, but pistols?

My testimony as a Californian is that gun-control works, folks can debate this with me all they'd like, but the reality of the crime on our streets being reduced speaks volumes for itself.  


Sorry for the politics but this issue is very personal to me, several of my friends and family have either bullet holes or even the bullets still remaining in their bodies, and several others are dead and buried in the cemetery God Rest Their Souls..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Well thank God I can still buy a gun at my local Wal-Mart and flea market.

PP

It's not nearly as bad as he makes it sound in California, I've bought 3 guns over the last year and other than the annoying 10 day waiting period and some plain weird restrictions on handguns (my brother had to buy a black M1911 last year because for some reason the stainless model wasn't available in California...exact same gun and same manufacturer...go figure) it's not really that bad. Even most the restrictions on assault weapons have either expired or are easily circumvented and gun shows are still alive and well, they just need a local gun dealer to be present to rubber-stamp all the deals. I'd like fewer gun laws, but it's not exactly like we're living in England.

I don't understand by what you mean by "makes it sound in California" because I never said anything in that quote or in any other posts other then that existing gun-control laws work, I never suggested anything about the extent or details of the laws, only reiterated that they have indeed effectively served their purpose by successfully limiting gun purchases and in correlation subsequent gun-violence.  The numbers speak for themselves..

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0816firearms0816.html
http://www.lcav.org/states/california.asp
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_brady_bill.

Again, I have no problems with Americans lawfully owning fire-arms, and gun-control is a matter of limiting the supply side which in turn has trickled down and consistently reduced gun-violence.  All y'all Americans who want to own guns are surely free to express your Constitutional rights, however there are appropriate laws already in effect which define the extent of these rights, and I feel they are excellent laws.

In 1992 there were over 3000 homicides in Los Angeles County alone, and in 2011 there were just over 1000.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


The top three states for gun murders in 2010 were, in order, California, Texas and New York. While Texas has lax gun control laws, California and New York are among the strictest gun-control states in the country.
 
“California is in a category of its own as far as gun control laws there,” Parsons said. “New York is a little bit better, but they still have discretionary concealed carry laws.”
 
According to FBI data, California had the most gun murders last year —- 1,257, which is 69 percent of all murders in 2010.


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/28/gun-crime-continues-to-decrease-despite-increase-in-gun-ownership/#ixzz1jCsl0Dxt

The FBI says that you are not telling the truth.
Quote
Homicides in 1992 Set Record for L.A. County : Violence: 2,589 killings in 1992
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-01-05/local/me-819_1_los-angeles-county

Quote
The Homicide Report
THE TIMES CHRONICLES L.A. COUNTY HOMICIDE VICTIMS
Showing 624 homicides from Jan. 1, 2010 to Dec. 29, 2010
http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/map/?year=2010 (by the way you can read the names and stories behind all of these murders at this link Sad )
 
415% decrease over the past twenty years?

EVERY SINGLE DEATH IS AN ABSOLUTE TRAGEDY, AND EVERY SINGLE LIFE SAVED IS AN ABSOLUTE MIRACLE.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

With a huge increase in gun ownership in that time.  Your point cannot be made.
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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2012, 12:20:17 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



With a huge increase in gun ownership in that time.  Your point cannot be made.

I beg to differ:

According to the California Department of Justice, in 1992 there just over 400,000 recorded hand gun sales in California and the trend was consistently near 400,000 per year from 1981-1992. In 2009 there were just over 200,000 recorded hand gun sales, and the trend from 2000-2009 was just around 200,000 per year.  [http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/pdf/droschart2009.pdf]

However, regardless of if my or your analysis is correct or not, the homicides in California and Los Angeles in particular are down significantly, and that is miraculous enough for me Smiley

Lord Have Mercy on the Souls of Those departed.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2012, 01:15:59 AM »

I think it has something to do with people preparing for that 2012 end of the world stuff, TBH

I think it has more to do with people seeing their liberty threatened from their government and taking necessary steps to prevent it.

As Thomas Jefferson authenticated: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The Second Amendment, I believe.
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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2012, 01:26:50 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

However, I do think that regardless of how strict the gun control laws are, you will always have thugs who have access to guns.  Thugs or criminals dont care about the law, so I doubt they would care about any gun control laws.  And I dont think, even with the recent fears of this, that our constitution would ever allow the government to truly get rid of all the guns.

But you misunderstand the fundamental premise behind gun control, which is to limit the over-all manufacturing and distribution of firearms by putting limits and restrictions on the market. Criminals steal their guns from the same places honest folks buy them, and that precisely is the problem and precisely what gun-control is designed to restrict, OVERALL distribution.  True, criminals will always find weapons, but that is why we as a society try our best to restrict and limit such in the first place.  If there are less guns out there, there are less guns to steal.  Again, recall that 30,000 alone are reported "missing" from honest and legitimate retailers, clearly there needs to be some more measures of control.  That is control, not necessarily elimination.  Folks are rightfully upset over the fiasco of the ATF operation Fast and Furious were just a handful of guns were intentionally released to criminals and big surprise, not only did innocent people get killed but even a federal law enforcement officer by these exact same missing firearms!! If only a relative handful of missing weapons did that much damage and loss of life, imagine what harm 30,000 could do and have done already?

 No one is suggesting no Americans shouldn't necessarily have access to fire-arms, the question is one of over-all quantity.

Again, sorry to be political, but as I said before, this is a deeply personal issue for me, my family, and my community at large.  God Bless the Souls of those departed by this plague of gun-violence,  May He guide us by His Spirit to be as responsible as we weak human beings can be.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

stay blessed,
habte selassie

So, if people start beating and killing each other with baseball bats, would you be in favor of restricting and licensing the sale of baseball bats? How many legally licensed gun owners committed violence with their guns compared to those who aren't licensed? Keep the government out of our lives!!
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 01:27:34 AM by Spartan563 » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2012, 01:37:31 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

However, I do think that regardless of how strict the gun control laws are, you will always have thugs who have access to guns.  Thugs or criminals dont care about the law, so I doubt they would care about any gun control laws.  And I dont think, even with the recent fears of this, that our constitution would ever allow the government to truly get rid of all the guns.

But you misunderstand the fundamental premise behind gun control, which is to limit the over-all manufacturing and distribution of firearms by putting limits and restrictions on the market. Criminals steal their guns from the same places honest folks buy them, and that precisely is the problem and precisely what gun-control is designed to restrict, OVERALL distribution.  True, criminals will always find weapons, but that is why we as a society try our best to restrict and limit such in the first place.  If there are less guns out there, there are less guns to steal.  Again, recall that 30,000 alone are reported "missing" from honest and legitimate retailers, clearly there needs to be some more measures of control.  That is control, not necessarily elimination.  Folks are rightfully upset over the fiasco of the ATF operation Fast and Furious were just a handful of guns were intentionally released to criminals and big surprise, not only did innocent people get killed but even a federal law enforcement officer by these exact same missing firearms!! If only a relative handful of missing weapons did that much damage and loss of life, imagine what harm 30,000 could do and have done already?

 No one is suggesting no Americans shouldn't necessarily have access to fire-arms, the question is one of over-all quantity.

Again, sorry to be political, but as I said before, this is a deeply personal issue for me, my family, and my community at large.  God Bless the Souls of those departed by this plague of gun-violence,  May He guide us by His Spirit to be as responsible as we weak human beings can be.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

stay blessed,
habte selassie

So, if people start beating and killing each other with baseball bats, would you be in favor of restricting and licensing the sale of baseball bats? How many legally licensed gun owners committed violence with their guns compared to those who aren't licensed? Keep the government out of our lives!!


+1
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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2012, 05:34:07 AM »

America has a bizarre culture. 

 I think all cultures have their idiosyncrasies/oddities.  But what are you referring to here, Nektarios?
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2012, 05:34:07 AM »

While you're out crusading for more gun control, Habte, why not also get auto companies to lower the speed their cars can go?  How many teens are killed each year because of excessive speeding?  I think the fastest we can drive in America is 70mph; ain't no need for civilians' cars to go 180mph.  On a more serious note- When you outlaw guns, only outlaw's will have guns.  Thank God the great state of Missouri allows conceal and carry.  That reminds me, Habte, I need a few more boxes of 9mm shells.  Thanks, buddy!  Wink Grin
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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2012, 10:20:52 AM »

America has a bizarre culture. 

 I think all cultures have their idiosyncrasies/oddities.  But what are you referring to here, Nektarios?

All cultures have lot's of things in common, with just a few glaring differences.  These are usually what get noticed.

"The manners and customs of the Lydians do not essentially vary from those of the Greeks, except in this prostitution of the young women."
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« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2012, 10:48:57 AM »

America has a bizarre culture. 

 I think all cultures have their idiosyncrasies/oddities.  But what are you referring to here, Nektarios?

The obsession with guns and otherwise acting like they live in a third world country.  The glorification of ignorance (do any first tier countries have a "debate" about teaching biology in schools?).   The whole consumer / over-consumption culture (of which owning guns merely as toys is very much a part of). 
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« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2012, 12:03:37 PM »

Whoever mentioned that California isnt the only place where crime has decreased makes a good point.  I live in Atlanta and for a long time in was in the top 3-5 most dangerous cities in the country.  Lately, it has gotten way safer.  People in Georgia like their guns as much as anyone. Trust me.  I walked into a pawn shop and 10 minutes later walked out with a 12 gauge shot gun. Not in a case or anything.  Just carried it out. Ha!  There is a little more of a process for hand guns, but its still not that bad.  Just a 3 day wait for a background check I think. 

I would agree that a lot of the changes may be cultural as well.  Theres been a huge decrease in gang violence and I dont think it had to do with gun control. At least not around here.  Cali may be different.

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« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2012, 12:49:29 PM »

Whoever mentioned that California isnt the only place where crime has decreased makes a good point.  I live in Atlanta and for a long time in was in the top 3-5 most dangerous cities in the country.  Lately, it has gotten way safer.  People in Georgia like their guns as much as anyone. Trust me.  I walked into a pawn shop and 10 minutes later walked out with a 12 gauge shot gun. Not in a case or anything.  Just carried it out. Ha!  There is a little more of a process for hand guns, but its still not that bad.  Just a 3 day wait for a background check I think. 

I would agree that a lot of the changes may be cultural as well.  Theres been a huge decrease in gang violence and I dont think it had to do with gun control. At least not around here.  Cali may be different.



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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2012, 01:29:57 PM »

America has a bizarre culture. 
Agreed. Guns'n'Twinkies.  Grin
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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2012, 01:57:17 PM »

Hmmm, where is the Lydia place?

America has a bizarre culture. 

 I think all cultures have their idiosyncrasies/oddities.  But what are you referring to here, Nektarios?

All cultures have lot's of things in common, with just a few glaring differences.  These are usually what get noticed.

"The manners and customs of the Lydians do not essentially vary from those of the Greeks, except in this prostitution of the young women."

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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2012, 02:00:59 PM »

Hmmm, where is the Lydia place?

America has a bizarre culture. 

 I think all cultures have their idiosyncrasies/oddities.  But what are you referring to here, Nektarios?

All cultures have lot's of things in common, with just a few glaring differences.  These are usually what get noticed.

"The manners and customs of the Lydians do not essentially vary from those of the Greeks, except in this prostitution of the young women."


Anatolia.
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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2012, 02:50:52 PM »

America has a bizarre culture. 

 I think all cultures have their idiosyncrasies/oddities.  But what are you referring to here, Nektarios?

  The glorification of ignorance (do any first tier countries have a "debate" about teaching biology in schools?).   The whole consumer / over-consumption culture (of which owning guns merely as toys is very much a part of). 
America debates whether or not to teach biology?  A quick glance at any college catalog and one can see that you have no idea what you're talking about.  And while I agree that Western culture is way too consumeristic/materialistic and over-consumes, I'd bet anything that most people would love to be able to own guns.  Freedom not only gives us guns, guns give us freedom. 
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2012, 10:52:46 PM »

A Mayan conspiracy? I'm tellin' ya.. Roll Eyes

Bishop Hilarion in Austin TX of the Milan Synod is some kind of historian (I think professionally) on the Mayans.  He has said the whole calendar thing is a big bluff.   You can buzz him for more info.
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« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2012, 04:59:51 PM »

A Mayan conspiracy? I'm tellin' ya.. Roll Eyes

Bishop Hilarion in Austin TX of the Milan Synod is some kind of historian (I think professionally) on the Mayans.  He has said the whole calendar thing is a big bluff.   You can buzz him for more info.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was a big sham.

Even if it wasn't I would not put alot of stock into a group predicting the end of the world, but couldn't predict themselves getting their butts handed to them  Wink

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« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2012, 05:11:50 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A Mayan conspiracy? I'm tellin' ya.. Roll Eyes

Bishop Hilarion in Austin TX of the Milan Synod is some kind of historian (I think professionally) on the Mayans.  He has said the whole calendar thing is a big bluff.   You can buzz him for more info.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was a big sham.

Even if it wasn't I would not put alot of stock into a group predicting the end of the world, but couldn't predict themselves getting their butts handed to them  Wink

PP

A) Most Mayans accept this 2012 thing as a misunderstanding, because it is Western scholars who have come to these conclusions, not necessarily the Maya themselves, and there are millions of Mayans still living today who can surely speak for themselves.

B) It was the Aztecs who I think you are referring to "getting their butts handed to them" and gross insensitivity aside, both the Aztecs did in fact predict the ending of their civilization and further so to did the Maya who preceded them also predict their own ending to the Aztecs, which is precisely why the Maya abandoned their cities in the first place which the Aztecs later found emptied and so reoccupied.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2012, 05:44:44 PM »

America has a bizarre culture. 

 I think all cultures have their idiosyncrasies/oddities.  But what are you referring to here, Nektarios?

  The glorification of ignorance (do any first tier countries have a "debate" about teaching biology in schools?).   The whole consumer / over-consumption culture (of which owning guns merely as toys is very much a part of). 
America debates whether or not to teach biology?  A quick glance at any college catalog and one can see that you have no idea what you're talking about.  And while I agree that Western culture is way too consumeristic/materialistic and over-consumes, I'd bet anything that most people would love to be able to own guns.  Freedom not only gives us guns, guns give us freedom. 

Evolution is still debated in the US.  It isn't debated in first tier countries.  The bizarre populations of the US that voters consider a candidate who is educated and has a decent command of the standard language to be elitist isn't shared in first tier countries.  US culture is overly consumeristic - not Western culture: compare the percentage of two car families in Western Europe to the US, the square feet of house per person etc.  The longer I'm away from it (going on three years now), the less I miss many aspects of the American mentality. 

You'd be surprised that not everyone outside of the US dreams of owning a gun and moving to America.       

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« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2012, 05:55:04 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A Mayan conspiracy? I'm tellin' ya.. Roll Eyes

Bishop Hilarion in Austin TX of the Milan Synod is some kind of historian (I think professionally) on the Mayans.  He has said the whole calendar thing is a big bluff.   You can buzz him for more info.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was a big sham.

Even if it wasn't I would not put alot of stock into a group predicting the end of the world, but couldn't predict themselves getting their butts handed to them  Wink

PP

A) Most Mayans accept this 2012 thing as a misunderstanding, because it is Western scholars who have come to these conclusions, not necessarily the Maya themselves, and there are millions of Mayans still living today who can surely speak for themselves.

B) It was the Aztecs who I think you are referring to "getting their butts handed to them" and gross insensitivity aside, both the Aztecs did in fact predict the ending of their civilization and further so to did the Maya who preceded them also predict their own ending to the Aztecs, which is precisely why the Maya abandoned their cities in the first place which the Aztecs later found emptied and so reoccupied.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

A: I would put money on it that some Mayan calendar writer in the mid-1200's was like "Hey boss, I've gotten the calendar all the way to [Mayan date corresponding to Dec. 21st, 2012 of the Gregorian Calendar], can I go home?  It's [Mayan Friday] and I'd like to catch the ball game."  Boss: "Yeah, take off.  I'll bet your [Mayan version of the Yankees] loose and all get their hearts cut out."  Then when they got to work on Monday their entire civilization had collapsed and they had no more time for calendar writing.  (And for what it's worth, the Mayan version of the Yankees had in fact lost and all got their hearts cut out.)

B: I didn't think the Aztecs ever got far enough south to colonize the Mayan cities?  There were still some Mayan city-states around in this period as well, the post-Classical civilizations of the Yucatan.  And the Conquistadores beat them as well...it just took a couple of attempts!
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« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2012, 05:58:34 PM »

America has a bizarre culture. 

 I think all cultures have their idiosyncrasies/oddities.  But what are you referring to here, Nektarios?

  The glorification of ignorance (do any first tier countries have a "debate" about teaching biology in schools?).   The whole consumer / over-consumption culture (of which owning guns merely as toys is very much a part of). 
America debates whether or not to teach biology?  A quick glance at any college catalog and one can see that you have no idea what you're talking about.  And while I agree that Western culture is way too consumeristic/materialistic and over-consumes, I'd bet anything that most people would love to be able to own guns.  Freedom not only gives us guns, guns give us freedom. 

Evolution is still debated in the US.  It isn't debated in first tier countries.  The bizarre populations of the US that voters consider a candidate who is educated and has a decent command of the standard language to be elitist isn't shared in first tier countries.  US culture is overly consumeristic - not Western culture: compare the percentage of two car families in Western Europe to the US, the square feet of house per person etc.  The longer I'm away from it (going on three years now), the less I miss many aspects of the American mentality. 

You'd be surprised that not everyone outside of the US dreams of owning a gun and moving to America.       



There is the problem that most of the public figures who are educated and have a decent grasp of the common language are elitist snobs.  This is really only noticeable when they are competing with another elitist snob who is poorly educated (Yale, pffft!) and doesn't have a grasp of the common language...then again, for every "Nucular" you have an "Austrian language".  Perhaps none of the elitist snobs have a grasp on the common language??
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« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2012, 06:01:16 PM »

America has a bizarre culture. 

 I think all cultures have their idiosyncrasies/oddities.  But what are you referring to here, Nektarios?

  The glorification of ignorance (do any first tier countries have a "debate" about teaching biology in schools?).   The whole consumer / over-consumption culture (of which owning guns merely as toys is very much a part of). 
America debates whether or not to teach biology?  A quick glance at any college catalog and one can see that you have no idea what you're talking about.  And while I agree that Western culture is way too consumeristic/materialistic and over-consumes, I'd bet anything that most people would love to be able to own guns.  Freedom not only gives us guns, guns give us freedom. 

Evolution is still debated in the US.  It isn't debated in first tier countries.  The bizarre populations of the US that voters consider a candidate who is educated and has a decent command of the standard language to be elitist isn't shared in first tier countries.  US culture is overly consumeristic - not Western culture: compare the percentage of two car families in Western Europe to the US, the square feet of house per person etc.  The longer I'm away from it (going on three years now), the less I miss many aspects of the American mentality. 

You'd be surprised that not everyone outside of the US dreams of owning a gun and moving to America.       



There is the problem that most of the public figures who are educated and have a decent grasp of the common language are elitist snobs.  This is really only noticeable when they are competing with another elitist snob who is poorly educated (Yale, pffft!) and doesn't have a grasp of the common language...then again, for every "Nucular" you have an "Austrian language".  Perhaps none of the elitist snobs have a grasp on the common language??

But that's just it - I want someone who is elitist running the country.  I don't want someone that could just as easily be a plumber as president.  Education and erudition are scorned in such a system. 
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« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2012, 06:51:04 PM »


A) Most Mayans accept this 2012 thing as a misunderstanding, because it is Western scholars who have come to these conclusions, not necessarily the Maya themselves, and there are millions of Mayans still living today who can surely speak for themselves.

B) ....
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habte selassie
Mayans are speaking for themselves: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/story/2011/12/29/sk-mayan-calendar-1229.html

I find it fascinating that "Western scholars" take so seriously Mayan predictions about the end of the world as we know it, but ridicule mercilessly any Christian who tries to do the same.

Fascinating in much the same way that Americans want a gun in one hand and a Twinkie in the other.

(I'm trying to find a way to bring this back to a discussion about guns  Cheesy)
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« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2012, 06:55:05 PM »

Quote
ating in much the same way that Americans want a gun in one hand and a Twinkie in the other
Heh, not with the twinkie anymore Smiley

As for people ridiculing Christians, thats because we're Christians, which are obviously worse than Nazis (forgive the Godwin's Rule).

PP
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« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2012, 07:07:47 PM »

Fascinating in much the same way that Americans want a gun in one hand and a Twinkie in the other.

I don't want a gun in one hand and a twinkie in the other, all the cool guns require the use of both hands to properly aim and fire.
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« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2012, 07:21:53 PM »

The heck with the Twinkie.  I prefer a Glock 21SF in one hand and a Glock 20SF in the other.  The Twinkie belongs in my mouth, but that is often occupied by a cigar.
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« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2012, 10:42:27 AM »

America has a bizarre culture. 

 I think all cultures have their idiosyncrasies/oddities.  But what are you referring to here, Nektarios?

  The glorification of ignorance (do any first tier countries have a "debate" about teaching biology in schools?).   The whole consumer / over-consumption culture (of which owning guns merely as toys is very much a part of). 
America debates whether or not to teach biology?  A quick glance at any college catalog and one can see that you have no idea what you're talking about.  And while I agree that Western culture is way too consumeristic/materialistic and over-consumes, I'd bet anything that most people would love to be able to own guns.  Freedom not only gives us guns, guns give us freedom. 

Evolution is still debated in the US.  It isn't debated in first tier countries.
Maybe, maybe not; I don't follow the debate enough to know.  I would suspect, though, that this isn't always the case.

 
The bizarre populations of the US that voters consider a candidate who is educated and has a decent command of the standard language to be elitist isn't shared in first tier countries.
Well, there's more to the picture than how you're portraying it.  Suffice it to say that only the wealthy and well-connected person is able to run for our president.  This doesn't automatically mean "snob" or "elitist", but it's a strong candidate.  I agree that American's are bizarre, but then every culture has it's oddities; perhaps because America is such a litigious society, but you don't see our elected officials resorting to fist fights in parliament such as certain Asian and Eastern European cultures.


US culture is overly consumeristic - not Western culture: compare the percentage of two car families in Western Europe to the US, the square feet of house per person etc.  The longer I'm away from it (going on three years now), the less I miss many aspects of the American mentality.
On this we are 100% agreed.  The contradictions between what we say we are and how we actually live are legion. 

You'd be surprised that not everyone outside of the US dreams of owning a gun and moving to America.
Perhaps, but I rarely hear of many American's dreaming to move to Ukraine or Kenya or Japan.  However, on the five occasions I've visited the Immigration offices in Kansas City, it looked like "Immigrate to America" Day i.e it's always packed!  And as far as guns are concerned, I'd still wager that the vast majority of world-wide folks would love to be able to own a gun.  Something tells me that you already knew this though.        
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« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2012, 04:13:39 AM »

Evolution is still debated in the US.  It isn't debated in first tier countries.

That says more about the academic dishonesty of other first tier countries than about the United States. Is there any particular reason why evolution, or any other scientific theory for that matter, shouldn't be debated?? I'm glad we still have scientists and citizens in this country who actively question what they're told, even if some of them are doing it for potentially the wrong reasons.
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« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2012, 06:38:09 AM »

Perhaps, but I rarely hear of many American's dreaming to move to Ukraine or Kenya or Japan.  However, on the five occasions I've visited the Immigration offices in Kansas City, it looked like "Immigrate to America" Day i.e it's always packed!  And as far as guns are concerned, I'd still wager that the vast majority of world-wide folks would love to be able to own a gun.  Something tells me that you already knew this though.

Every trip to immigration offices in China and Ukraine involved endless lines and multitudes of people.  People move around for many reasons.  I know it is hard for a Yankee to not think in the 19th century paradigm of defending the farm, but again once Dorthy gets outside of Kansas she'd be surprised that people in developed countries live quite happily without guns and the death penalty and with socialized healthcare.

 
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« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2012, 12:56:17 PM »

People pretend like this is an idiosyncretisy of Americans but Irish folks, Scots, Norwegians, Russians, Frenchmen, Germans, etc "love" guns just as much. People who come from an urban culture think they're horrible, and people who are not realize they have their use.
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« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2012, 01:13:52 PM »

Evolution is still debated in the US.  It isn't debated in first tier countries.

I love the smug distinction you make.   Roll Eyes

I too find the idea of "Euro-Socialist nightmares" hilarious, but to ignore what the collective security provided by the U.S. allows (and subsequently classifying it as a non-"first tier" country) is willfully ignorant or misleading.
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« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2012, 02:32:39 PM »

Evolution is still debated in the US.  It isn't debated in first tier countries.

I love the smug distinction you make.   Roll Eyes

I too find the idea of "Euro-Socialist nightmares" hilarious, but to ignore what the collective security provided by the U.S. allows (and subsequently classifying it as a non-"first tier" country) is willfully ignorant or misleading.

Or both.
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« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2012, 04:28:19 PM »

what's a twinkie?
can u kill someone with it?
(seriously i don't know what it is, i realise i looks like i'm trying to make a joke, but not really).
and yes, lots of people in uk don't want guns. we agree with nektarios that it's a bit weird for people to buy guns in case of war.
however it's common in pakistan. when i was there, some guy accidently blew up his house as he was storing too many explosives.
no one was hurt, unusually.
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« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2012, 04:51:53 PM »

what's a twinkie?
can u kill someone with it?
(seriously i don't know what it is, i realise i looks like i'm trying to make a joke, but not really).
and yes, lots of people in uk don't want guns. we agree with nektarios that it's a bit weird for people to buy guns in case of war.
however it's common in pakistan. when i was there, some guy accidently blew up his house as he was storing too many explosives.
no one was hurt, unusually.
Since I said something like "a gun in one hand and a twinkie in the other", I guess I'll need to explain. I was trying to make a humourous connection between this thread and another in which Americans seemed horrified at the possibility of having no Twinkies!

It's easy to find info and pictures about them. You might want to start here.

"Death by Twinkie" is, I suppose, a possibility  Cheesy.
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« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2012, 05:15:30 PM »

what's a twinkie?
can u kill someone with it?
(seriously i don't know what it is, i realise i looks like i'm trying to make a joke, but not really).
and yes, lots of people in uk don't want guns. we agree with nektarios that it's a bit weird for people to buy guns in case of war.
however it's common in pakistan. when i was there, some guy accidently blew up his house as he was storing too many explosives.
no one was hurt, unusually.

I can think of one place in the UK people still try to get guns...primarily because they don't want to be part of the UK anymore...
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« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2012, 06:01:00 PM »

People who come from an urban culture think they're horrible, and people who are not realize they have their use.

Right, but the difference is that in America a lot of rural values are emulated by urban dwellers.  That creates an odd imbalance.  On the other hand there is an obnoxious prejudice towards all things rural in some European cultures (French and Soviet / Russian come to mind). 

Evolution is still debated in the US.  It isn't debated in first tier countries.

I love the smug distinction you make.   Roll Eyes

I too find the idea of "Euro-Socialist nightmares" hilarious, but to ignore what the collective security provided by the U.S. allows (and subsequently classifying it as a non-"first tier" country) is willfully ignorant or misleading.

France and the UK developed their own nuclear deterrents.  Collective security ought not to be confused with US military engagements that were meant to sustain greater US influence around the world rather than those which were purely defensive. 

Going back to my main point: Americans ought to get outside of their bubble every now and then and see that there is such a thing as a civilized world outside of the US.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of aspects of American culture that I deeply miss, but it is healthy to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.   
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« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2012, 06:08:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Going back to my main point: Americans ought to get outside of their bubble every now and then and see that there is such a thing as a civilized world outside of the US.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of aspects of American culture that I deeply miss, but it is healthy to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.   

That is mercifully great advice, thank you for that.

It seems to me that Americans are generally way too innocently self-centered to even notice the big picture or accept that civilization exists elsewhere.  Many Americans don't even think that civilization exists outside of  their own respective neighborhood/city/state/state of mind etc etc..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2012, 06:16:23 PM »

It seems to me that Americans are generally way too innocently self-centered to even notice the big picture or accept that civilization exists elsewhere.  Many Americans don't even think that civilization exists outside of  their own respective neighborhood/city/state/state of mind etc etc..

Certainly geography plays a negative role.  In Europe you take a train just a few hours in any direction and you'll encounter a different language and culture with a relatively similar level of development as your own.  Thus it is harder to be insular.
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« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2012, 06:18:51 PM »

Going back to my main point: Americans ought to get outside of their bubble every now and then and see that there is such a thing as a civilized world outside of the US.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of aspects of American culture that I deeply miss, but it is healthy to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.    

Sounds a lot like empty rhetoric to me. Knowledge of other languages and cultures is highly valued by American society, and certainly among the educated. A significant majority of American universities require at least basic proficiency in a foreign language for graduation. For graduate school you're required to have proficiency often in two or even three foreign languages.
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« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2012, 06:22:16 PM »

Going back to my main point: Americans ought to get outside of their bubble every now and then and see that there is such a thing as a civilized world outside of the US.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of aspects of American culture that I deeply miss, but it is healthy to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.    

Sounds a lot like empty rhetoric to me. Knowledge of other languages and cultures is highly valued by American society, and certainly among the educated. A significant majority of American universities require at least basic proficiency in a foreign language for graduation. For graduate school you're required to have proficiency often in two or even three foreign languages.

Ha.  What a joke - I went to an American university.  The language requirements are an absolute joke.  Realistically in US society there is little economic incentive to learn a foreign language or be able to comfortable conduct yourself in several different cultures. 
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« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2012, 06:23:12 PM »

Going back to my main point: Americans ought to get outside of their bubble every now and then and see that there is such a thing as a civilized world outside of the US.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of aspects of American culture that I deeply miss, but it is healthy to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.    

Sounds a lot like empty rhetoric to me. Knowledge of other languages and cultures is highly valued by American society, and certainly among the educated. A significant majority of American universities require at least basic proficiency in a foreign language for graduation. For graduate school you're required to have proficiency often in two or even three foreign languages.

Ha.  What a joke - I went to an American university.  The language requirements are an absolute joke.  Realistically in US society there is little economic incentive to learn a foreign language or be able to comfortable conduct yourself in several different cultures. 

Which university?
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« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2012, 06:23:56 PM »

Going back to my main point: Americans ought to get outside of their bubble every now and then and see that there is such a thing as a civilized world outside of the US.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of aspects of American culture that I deeply miss, but it is healthy to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.    

Sounds a lot like empty rhetoric to me. Knowledge of other languages and cultures is highly valued by American society, and certainly among the educated. A significant majority of American universities require at least basic proficiency in a foreign language for graduation. For graduate school you're required to have proficiency often in two or even three foreign languages.

Ha.  What a joke - I went to an American university.  The language requirements are an absolute joke.  Realistically in US society there is little economic incentive to learn a foreign language or be able to comfortable conduct yourself in several different cultures. 

Which university?

Arizona State
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« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2012, 06:26:05 PM »

Going back to my main point: Americans ought to get outside of their bubble every now and then and see that there is such a thing as a civilized world outside of the US.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of aspects of American culture that I deeply miss, but it is healthy to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.    

Sounds a lot like empty rhetoric to me. Knowledge of other languages and cultures is highly valued by American society, and certainly among the educated. A significant majority of American universities require at least basic proficiency in a foreign language for graduation. For graduate school you're required to have proficiency often in two or even three foreign languages.

Ha.  What a joke - I went to an American university.  The language requirements are an absolute joke.  Realistically in US society there is little economic incentive to learn a foreign language or be able to comfortable conduct yourself in several different cultures. 

Which university?

Arizona State

Okay. So how exactly were the language requirements an absolute joke?
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« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2012, 06:29:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

It seems to me that Americans are generally way too innocently self-centered to even notice the big picture or accept that civilization exists elsewhere.  Many Americans don't even think that civilization exists outside of  their own respective neighborhood/city/state/state of mind etc etc..

Certainly geography plays a negative role.  In Europe you take a train just a few hours in any direction and you'll encounter a different language and culture with a relatively similar level of development as your own.  Thus it is harder to be insular.

I can't speak for other Americans, but here in the LA you can simply walk a few houses down in any direction and find the same thing Wink


stay blessed,
habte selassie


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« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2012, 06:31:17 PM »

Going back to my main point: Americans ought to get outside of their bubble every now and then and see that there is such a thing as a civilized world outside of the US.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of aspects of American culture that I deeply miss, but it is healthy to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.    

Sounds a lot like empty rhetoric to me. Knowledge of other languages and cultures is highly valued by American society, and certainly among the educated. A significant majority of American universities require at least basic proficiency in a foreign language for graduation. For graduate school you're required to have proficiency often in two or even three foreign languages.

Ha.  What a joke - I went to an American university.  The language requirements are an absolute joke.  Realistically in US society there is little economic incentive to learn a foreign language or be able to comfortable conduct yourself in several different cultures. 

Which university?

Arizona State

Okay. So how exactly were the language requirements an absolute joke?

The number of people I know who can actually communicate in a foreign language due to university courses is pretty close to zero.  Now I see this all the time.  We get new teachers at my school from the US who were Russian majors and can't even carry on the simplest of conversations in Russian.  I saw the same when I lived in China.  I often had to translate for Chinese majors despite never having taken a single university course in Chinese.    
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« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2012, 06:31:37 PM »

 Cheesy
i am laughing now i know what a twinkie is (fat-filled cake).
but seriously, it's probably killing more people than the guns (heart disease, bowel cancer etc),
but maybe it's not permitted in lent, so hopefully people get to give their systems a rest from it.

there are a lot of good american things by the way, i celebrated thanksgiving once with some nice americans in pakistan, i really enjoyed the pumpkin pie; goes down nicely after a curry!
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« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2012, 06:34:52 PM »

there are a lot of good american things by the way, i celebrated thanksgiving once with some nice americans in pakistan, i really enjoyed the pumpkin pie; goes down nicely after a curry!

Exactly!  I love parts of real American culture such as Thanksgiving.  That's probably the holiday I miss the most here in exile  Smiley
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« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2012, 06:37:33 PM »

The number of people I know who can actually communicate in a foreign language due to university courses is pretty close to zero.  Now I see this all the time.  We get new teachers at my school from the US who were Russian majors and can't even carry on the simplest of conversations in Russian.  I saw the same when I lived in China.  I often had to translate for Chinese majors despite never having taken a single university course in Chinese.    

If your criticisms fall on proficiency, that's not the result of multiculturalism being discouraged. It's the result of a flawed educational system which has only started to implement language programs at the age they're ideally supposed to be taught, which is before puberty. But educators have mostly come to realize this, and now languages are being taught in elementary schools at a greater rate than ever before.
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« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2012, 06:44:35 PM »

The number of people I know who can actually communicate in a foreign language due to university courses is pretty close to zero.  Now I see this all the time.  We get new teachers at my school from the US who were Russian majors and can't even carry on the simplest of conversations in Russian.  I saw the same when I lived in China.  I often had to translate for Chinese majors despite never having taken a single university course in Chinese.    

If your criticisms fall on proficiency, that's not the result of multiculturalism being discouraged. It's the result of a flawed educational system which has only started to implement language programs at the age they're ideally supposed to be taught, which is before puberty. But educators have mostly come to realize this, and now languages are being taught in elementary schools at a greater rate than ever before.

Excuses excuses.  I started learning Russian when I was 19, Chinese when I was 22 and Ukrainian when I was 24. 
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« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2012, 06:59:34 PM »

So what? Anyone who learns a number of languages on their own initiative as an adult is going to be an exception in any society. However I should mention that I come from a typical Midwest Republican family myself and was strongly encouraged to learn languages and spend time abroad.
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« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2012, 07:35:14 PM »

It seems to me that Americans are generally way too innocently self-centered to even notice the big picture or accept that civilization exists elsewhere.  Many Americans don't even think that civilization exists outside of  their own respective neighborhood/city/state/state of mind etc etc..

Certainly geography plays a negative role.  In Europe you take a train just a few hours in any direction and you'll encounter a different language and culture with a relatively similar level of development as your own.  Thus it is harder to be insular.

"Fog in channel, continent cut off" ...we're not the first people to have been so affected by geography. Wink

Historically American culture was begun by adventurers and malcontents, born in revolution, and defined by a seemingly endless frontier. It is only natural that it would come to differ from the cultures of the kingdoms and nation-states of Europe, even when these defining elements have become a matter of history. Then, in more recent years, our culture has been influenced by the relative position of our society in the world and has taken on characteristics common amongst the cultures of all imperial powers, be it Egypt, Rome, or the British Empire such as pride in the accomplishments of one's society and some related jingoistic excesses.

Whether these differences are beneficial will not be determined in our generation, it will be for history to judge the greatness of our empire and to rank it among the other great empires and civilizations of this world.
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« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2012, 11:06:05 PM »

It seems to me that Americans are generally way too innocently self-centered to even notice the big picture or accept that civilization exists elsewhere.  Many Americans don't even think that civilization exists outside of  their own respective neighborhood/city/state/state of mind etc etc..

Certainly geography plays a negative role.  In Europe you take a train just a few hours in any direction and you'll encounter a different language and culture with a relatively similar level of development as your own.  Thus it is harder to be insular.

"Fog in channel, continent cut off" ...we're not the first people to have been so affected by geography. Wink

Historically American culture was begun by adventurers and malcontents, born in revolution, and defined by a seemingly endless frontier. It is only natural that it would come to differ from the cultures of the kingdoms and nation-states of Europe, even when these defining elements have become a matter of history. Then, in more recent years, our culture has been influenced by the relative position of our society in the world and has taken on characteristics common amongst the cultures of all imperial powers, be it Egypt, Rome, or the British Empire such as pride in the accomplishments of one's society and some related jingoistic excesses.

Whether these differences are beneficial will not be determined in our generation, it will be for history to judge the greatness of our empire and to rank it among the other great empires and civilizations of this world.

That's true, although there are some differences between America and previous imperial powers, in that the current U.S. favors spreading influence over land acquisition or political integration while the former powers viewed these goals as mostly synonymous. This has led to slightly different, and I would argue more favorable, perceptions of foreign nations.
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« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2012, 11:18:06 PM »

The number of people I know who can actually communicate in a foreign language due to university courses is pretty close to zero.  Now I see this all the time.  We get new teachers at my school from the US who were Russian majors and can't even carry on the simplest of conversations in Russian.  I saw the same when I lived in China.  I often had to translate for Chinese majors despite never having taken a single university course in Chinese.    

If your criticisms fall on proficiency, that's not the result of multiculturalism being discouraged. It's the result of a flawed educational system which has only started to implement language programs at the age they're ideally supposed to be taught, which is before puberty. But educators have mostly come to realize this, and now languages are being taught in elementary schools at a greater rate than ever before.

Excuses excuses.  I started learning Russian when I was 19, Chinese when I was 22 and Ukrainian when I was 24. 

I am so impressed.  And that makes you a better person how?
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« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2012, 06:33:25 AM »

It seems to me that Americans are generally way too innocently self-centered to even notice the big picture or accept that civilization exists elsewhere.  Many Americans don't even think that civilization exists outside of  their own respective neighborhood/city/state/state of mind etc etc..

Certainly geography plays a negative role.  In Europe you take a train just a few hours in any direction and you'll encounter a different language and culture with a relatively similar level of development as your own.  Thus it is harder to be insular.

"Fog in channel, continent cut off" ...we're not the first people to have been so affected by geography. Wink

Historically American culture was begun by adventurers and malcontents, born in revolution, and defined by a seemingly endless frontier. It is only natural that it would come to differ from the cultures of the kingdoms and nation-states of Europe, even when these defining elements have become a matter of history. Then, in more recent years, our culture has been influenced by the relative position of our society in the world and has taken on characteristics common amongst the cultures of all imperial powers, be it Egypt, Rome, or the British Empire such as pride in the accomplishments of one's society and some related jingoistic excesses.

Whether these differences are beneficial will not be determined in our generation, it will be for history to judge the greatness of our empire and to rank it among the other great empires and civilizations of this world.

The greatest of empire and such is really only of importance to social science and academia.  I'm personally far more interested in where my quality of life would be higher.  Granted that is highly subjective, but I personally don't value a lot of things connected to the suburban dream in America.  I'd much rather spend my salary on cultural pursuits, travel and the like rather than cars and an oversized house miles from the city center.  I enjoy walking to work, excellent public transportation, living in an apartment in the city center, shopping at farmer's market rather than a supermarket, etc.  While I see that things are slowly changing in the US (and unfortunately are in Europe as well), I think it'd be difficult to live the lifestyle I really wanted to live.  From the outside the US is a curious mix of third world religious fanaticism and ignorance mixed some of the best technology and development of the world.     
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« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2012, 06:34:55 AM »

The number of people I know who can actually communicate in a foreign language due to university courses is pretty close to zero.  Now I see this all the time.  We get new teachers at my school from the US who were Russian majors and can't even carry on the simplest of conversations in Russian.  I saw the same when I lived in China.  I often had to translate for Chinese majors despite never having taken a single university course in Chinese.    

If your criticisms fall on proficiency, that's not the result of multiculturalism being discouraged. It's the result of a flawed educational system which has only started to implement language programs at the age they're ideally supposed to be taught, which is before puberty. But educators have mostly come to realize this, and now languages are being taught in elementary schools at a greater rate than ever before.

Excuses excuses.  I started learning Russian when I was 19, Chinese when I was 22 and Ukrainian when I was 24. 

I am so impressed.  And that makes you a better person how?

In general the ability to think in a different paradigm is important.  Why be insular and parochial when you don't have to be? 
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« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2012, 09:34:18 AM »

Sigh.








That is all.
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« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2012, 10:18:25 AM »

Quote
I'd much rather spend my salary on cultural pursuits, travel and the like rather than cars and an oversized house miles from the city center.  I enjoy walking to work, excellent public transportation, living in an apartment in the city center, shopping at farmer's market rather than a supermarket, etc.

There are plenty of places here where you would fit in great! Asheville, North Carolina and Portland, Oregon come to mind.  There are even neighborhoods like that in larger cities like my own city of Atlanta. 

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« Reply #79 on: January 17, 2012, 03:04:10 PM »

It seems to me that Americans are generally way too innocently self-centered to even notice the big picture or accept that civilization exists elsewhere.  Many Americans don't even think that civilization exists outside of  their own respective neighborhood/city/state/state of mind etc etc..

Certainly geography plays a negative role.  In Europe you take a train just a few hours in any direction and you'll encounter a different language and culture with a relatively similar level of development as your own.  Thus it is harder to be insular.

"Fog in channel, continent cut off" ...we're not the first people to have been so affected by geography. Wink

Historically American culture was begun by adventurers and malcontents, born in revolution, and defined by a seemingly endless frontier. It is only natural that it would come to differ from the cultures of the kingdoms and nation-states of Europe, even when these defining elements have become a matter of history. Then, in more recent years, our culture has been influenced by the relative position of our society in the world and has taken on characteristics common amongst the cultures of all imperial powers, be it Egypt, Rome, or the British Empire such as pride in the accomplishments of one's society and some related jingoistic excesses.

Whether these differences are beneficial will not be determined in our generation, it will be for history to judge the greatness of our empire and to rank it among the other great empires and civilizations of this world.

The greatest of empire and such is really only of importance to social science and academia.  I'm personally far more interested in where my quality of life would be higher.  Granted that is highly subjective, but I personally don't value a lot of things connected to the suburban dream in America.  I'd much rather spend my salary on cultural pursuits, travel and the like rather than cars and an oversized house miles from the city center.  I enjoy walking to work, excellent public transportation, living in an apartment in the city center, shopping at farmer's market rather than a supermarket, etc.  While I see that things are slowly changing in the US (and unfortunately are in Europe as well), I think it'd be difficult to live the lifestyle I really wanted to live.  From the outside the US is a curious mix of third world religious fanaticism and ignorance mixed some of the best technology and development of the world.     

There is a Starbucks in nearly every city in the US so people can talk about people who are beneath them.  Wink
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« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2012, 05:16:01 PM »

It seems to me that Americans are generally way too innocently self-centered to even notice the big picture or accept that civilization exists elsewhere.  Many Americans don't even think that civilization exists outside of  their own respective neighborhood/city/state/state of mind etc etc..

Certainly geography plays a negative role.  In Europe you take a train just a few hours in any direction and you'll encounter a different language and culture with a relatively similar level of development as your own.  Thus it is harder to be insular.

"Fog in channel, continent cut off" ...we're not the first people to have been so affected by geography. Wink

Historically American culture was begun by adventurers and malcontents, born in revolution, and defined by a seemingly endless frontier. It is only natural that it would come to differ from the cultures of the kingdoms and nation-states of Europe, even when these defining elements have become a matter of history. Then, in more recent years, our culture has been influenced by the relative position of our society in the world and has taken on characteristics common amongst the cultures of all imperial powers, be it Egypt, Rome, or the British Empire such as pride in the accomplishments of one's society and some related jingoistic excesses.

Whether these differences are beneficial will not be determined in our generation, it will be for history to judge the greatness of our empire and to rank it among the other great empires and civilizations of this world.

The greatest of empire and such is really only of importance to social science and academia.  I'm personally far more interested in where my quality of life would be higher.  Granted that is highly subjective, but I personally don't value a lot of things connected to the suburban dream in America.  I'd much rather spend my salary on cultural pursuits, travel and the like rather than cars and an oversized house miles from the city center.  I enjoy walking to work, excellent public transportation, living in an apartment in the city center, shopping at farmer's market rather than a supermarket, etc.  While I see that things are slowly changing in the US (and unfortunately are in Europe as well), I think it'd be difficult to live the lifestyle I really wanted to live.  From the outside the US is a curious mix of third world religious fanaticism and ignorance mixed some of the best technology and development of the world.     

Quality of life, as opposed to standard of living or HDI, is rather difficult to quantify objectively, but, if you factor in risk analysis there are great benefits to global influence (not to mention the geographic advantage we enjoy, protected by two oceans). As for every day living, international risks aside, I'm glad you found somewhere you like but we would differ on what is essential to quality of life, I'd give great technological development far more weight than cultural pursuits and individual liberty more consideration than urban culture, but that's just a matter of personal preference.
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« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2012, 05:18:10 PM »

Quote from: Aindriú
There is a Starbucks in nearly every city in the US so people can talk about people who are beneath them.  Wink

Or, drink coffee.
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« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2012, 05:47:19 PM »

Quote from: Aindriú
There is a Starbucks in nearly every city in the US so people can talk about people who are beneath them.  Wink

Or, drink coffee.

They have coffee at Starbucks?
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« Reply #83 on: January 17, 2012, 05:54:41 PM »

Quote from: Aindriú
There is a Starbucks in nearly every city in the US so people can talk about people who are beneath them.  Wink

Or, drink coffee.

They have coffee at Starbucks?
Yeah, they serve the coffee along with smug-flavored snobbery.

PP
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« Reply #84 on: January 17, 2012, 06:22:37 PM »

Going back to my main point: Americans ought to get outside of their bubble every now and then and see that there is such a thing as a civilized world outside of the US.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of aspects of American culture that I deeply miss, but it is healthy to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.   

 On this we can agree.  But I would posit that there is a certain xenophobia prevalent in all cultures.  I know many Indonesians, Romanians, Arabs and Russians who've either immigrated to America for economic gain that wasn't available to them in their respective countries or they're here for higher education purposes (which is economic gains as well).  But economic gains aside, they all tend to think their cultures are superior to ours.  This is nothing new or indigenous to Americans.
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« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2012, 06:22:43 PM »

Perhaps, but I rarely hear of many American's dreaming to move to Ukraine or Kenya or Japan.  However, on the five occasions I've visited the Immigration offices in Kansas City, it looked like "Immigrate to America" Day i.e it's always packed!  And as far as guns are concerned, I'd still wager that the vast majority of world-wide folks would love to be able to own a gun.  Something tells me that you already knew this though.

Every trip to immigration offices in China and Ukraine involved endless lines and multitudes of people.  People move around for many reasons.  I know it is hard for a Yankee to not think in the 19th century paradigm of defending the farm, but again once Dorthy gets outside of Kansas she'd be surprised that people in developed countries live quite happily without guns and the death penalty and with socialized healthcare.

 

 Sure, folks move around for all kinds of reasons.  But I'd hazard a guess that much of that movement is for economic reasons and I'd also hazard a guess that America would be their first choice.  And the 'Wizard of Oz' comment aside, people can live quite happily without lots of things; this is known as learning to be content or simply adjusting to reality.  But you know that's not what I'm saying though.  
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« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2012, 08:02:54 PM »

Quote from: Aindriú
There is a Starbucks in nearly every city in the US so people can talk about people who are beneath them.  Wink

Or, drink coffee.

They have coffee at Starbucks?

Apparently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGkTvkpo6as
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« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2012, 11:56:22 PM »

Quote
The Homicide Report
THE TIMES CHRONICLES L.A. COUNTY HOMICIDE VICTIMS
Showing 624 homicides from Jan. 1, 2010 to Dec. 29, 2010

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/map/?year=2010 (by the way you can read the names and stories behind all of these murders at this link Sad )
 
415% decrease over the past twenty years?

EVERY SINGLE DEATH IS AN ABSOLUTE TRAGEDY, AND EVERY SINGLE LIFE SAVED IS AN ABSOLUTE MIRACLE.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

What a load of crap.

A few years ago I was coming home with my family from a late-night Presanctified Gifts.  While we got out of our mini-van (go ahead and laugh) a guy in a Jeep yelled at my wife that he wanted to, as he put it, "kill you, you f-ing b****."  He hit the gas and drove at her.

Now, in your fantasmic world I would be thanking my gods, the Central Planners, for SAVING me from the HORRORS of firearms, while remembering my late wife and who knows how many of my 4 kids.

However, I don't need you or your pathetic laws to save me from myself (or from anyone else), as the Good Lord gave me enough sense to at least have had a .38 DAO revolver on my person.  He's extremely lucky I wasn't carrying my Glock.  

So, apparently, to you, EVERY SINGLE DEATH IS AN ABSOLUTE TRAGEDY, AND EVERY SINGLE LIFE SAVED IS AN ABSOLUTE MIRACLE, unless the person was saved by an armed citizen who used the skills the Good Lord gave him.  I guess you prefer folks to sit around and be all helpless and cry for your help.  

Oh, and it took the police OVER AN HOUR to get around after I had already dealt with the issue.  The police had no problems with what I did and knew who the guy was (he ran away).

And did you even *bother* to actually *read* the stories of your horrible "gun" victims (I've had firearms all my life and I've never seen one get up and bite a single person who didn't ask for it first)?

Quote
http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/bernardino-gomez-jr/  Investigators said Gomez appeared to have had gang-affiliations.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/gerald-smith/  Investigators said the shooting appeared to be gang-related, but added that Smith had no gang affiliation.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/alfonso-covarrubias/  Borihanh said investigators believe the shooting may have been gang-related, but police have no description of a suspect or vehicle.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/michael-douver/  The shooting is believed to be gang-related.

Now, I'm just a dumb FA guy, but that sure sounds to me like LA has a GANG problem.  Last I heard, the Jesu . . . I mean the Obama administration was selling firearms illegally to the gangs down Mexico way, so I'm pretty sure the gangs in LA are armed with illegal weapons.  If I were stupid enough to live in such an area, I sure as heck wouldn't be stupid enough to live there as unarmed as a New England Quaker on a Sunday morning buggy ride to church.

You go ahead and stay in the Los Angeles, Repulbik of Kalifornia and I won't tell you how big of a heartless boob you are for not letting innocent citizens protect themselves, and I'll live free in Texas and I don't give a tinker's dang what you say about me.
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« Reply #88 on: January 18, 2012, 12:03:12 AM »

Only Sith deal in absolutes. -George Lucas
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« Reply #89 on: January 18, 2012, 12:44:02 AM »

Only Sith deal in absolutes. -George Lucas

Well, when you meet a real live Sith Lord in the flesh, you be just as careful as can be.

Meantime, you just keep on quoting Hollywood.  One of these years they're sure to be right about something.
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« Reply #90 on: January 18, 2012, 01:07:24 AM »

Only Sith deal in absolutes. -George Lucas

Well, when you meet a real live Sith Lord in the flesh, you be just as careful as can be.

Meantime, you just keep on quoting Hollywood.  One of these years they're sure to be right about something.

That's part of the joke...
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« Reply #91 on: January 18, 2012, 07:52:32 AM »

There is a Starbucks in nearly every city in the US so people can talk about people who are beneath them.  Wink

Simply having personal preferences about quality of life doesn't make me think that I'm above other people.  As for coffee, I really only like to make it at home.  I'm too cheap to pay for something I can make better at home.

Quality of life, as opposed to standard of living or HDI, is rather difficult to quantify objectively, but, if you factor in risk analysis there are great benefits to global influence (not to mention the geographic advantage we enjoy, protected by two oceans). As for every day living, international risks aside, I'm glad you found somewhere you like but we would differ on what is essential to quality of life, I'd give great technological development far more weight than cultural pursuits and individual liberty more consideration than urban culture, but that's just a matter of personal preference.
   

I agree it is difficult to quantify and ultimately up to personal preference.  As far as technology goes, I'm content not being on the front lines as long as I have reasonably fast internet.  But you could hardly argue that a European style Urban life is antithetical to modernity (i.e Germany doesn't lag behind).  In the most wired societies like South Korea or Japan, I honestly think I'd go crazy if I spent much more than a few years there.  It is a toss up though as Korean food might be one of the best cuisines in the world. 
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« Reply #92 on: January 18, 2012, 07:53:31 AM »

Only Sith deal in absolutes. -George Lucas

Well, when you meet a real live Sith Lord in the flesh, you be just as careful as can be.

Meantime, you just keep on quoting Hollywood.  One of these years they're sure to be right about something.

That's part of the joke...

Dangit . . .
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« Reply #93 on: January 18, 2012, 01:05:27 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
The Homicide Report
THE TIMES CHRONICLES L.A. COUNTY HOMICIDE VICTIMS
Showing 624 homicides from Jan. 1, 2010 to Dec. 29, 2010

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/map/?year=2010 (by the way you can read the names and stories behind all of these murders at this link Sad )
 
415% decrease over the past twenty years?

EVERY SINGLE DEATH IS AN ABSOLUTE TRAGEDY, AND EVERY SINGLE LIFE SAVED IS AN ABSOLUTE MIRACLE.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

What a load of crap.

A few years ago I was coming home with my family from a late-night Presanctified Gifts.  While we got out of our mini-van (go ahead and laugh) a guy in a Jeep yelled at my wife that he wanted to, as he put it, "kill you, you f-ing b****."  He hit the gas and drove at her.


However, I don't need you or your pathetic laws to save me from myself (or from anyone else), as the Good Lord gave me enough sense to at least have had a .38 DAO revolver on my person.  He's extremely lucky I wasn't carrying my Glock.  

 

And did you even *bother* to actually *read* the stories of your horrible "gun" victims (I've had firearms all my life and I've never seen one get up and bite a single person who didn't ask for it first)?

Quote
http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/bernardino-gomez-jr/  Investigators said Gomez appeared to have had gang-affiliations.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/gerald-smith/  Investigators said the shooting appeared to be gang-related, but added that Smith had no gang affiliation.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/alfonso-covarrubias/  Borihanh said investigators believe the shooting may have been gang-related, but police have no description of a suspect or vehicle.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/michael-douver/  The shooting is believed to be gang-related.
 If I were stupid enough to live in such an area, I sure as heck wouldn't be stupid enough to live there as unarmed as a New England Quaker on a Sunday morning buggy ride to church.


So you're telling me you would have shot a person over an incident of road rage? Perhaps you need to pause and reflect on that for a minute..

Further, please refrain from disrespecting my friends and family who have died and been buried in the cemetary by gun violence, the dead can't speak for themselves so I have to speak on their behalf, and you are free to your opinions, but you have NO RIGHT to be so disrespectful. You can diss me, you can diss the laws, but don't you DARE disrespect the dead, be they gangsters, innocents, or my own friends and family.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #94 on: January 18, 2012, 01:50:10 PM »

Road rage?  Sounds more like attempted murder.  I suppose that he was just trying to turn his life around, too.  If someone was trying to run my wife down and I was there, they would need to check DNA to identify what was left of him.  That is the problem in certain parts of my city, the ones most likely to die of gun violence are the ones also most likely to make excuses for criminal action.  Sorry, but I do not see most of the shootings in Omaha as a tragedy, other than a high percentage of the targets survive only to commit more crimes later.  And when one does end up getting killed (the only time most of the stories are even reported anymore), his rap sheet is often longer than Al Capone's.  The real tragedy are the poor convenience store clerks that get executed by the gangs (store clearly marked "no firearms"), or the poor pizza delivery boy who gets stabbed over the $20 he is carrying (company policy that drivers cannot carry weapons).  Thankfully, due to our general freedom to arm ourselves here, the bad guys do not always win (Benson Pawn Shop, Grills, Benson Walgreens).  Since I have lived here, there have been several shootings where the perp was killed instead of the intended victim.  And the worst shooting in Omaha occured at a place where (legal) firearms were prohibited (Von Maur).

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
The Homicide Report
THE TIMES CHRONICLES L.A. COUNTY HOMICIDE VICTIMS
Showing 624 homicides from Jan. 1, 2010 to Dec. 29, 2010

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/map/?year=2010 (by the way you can read the names and stories behind all of these murders at this link Sad )
 
415% decrease over the past twenty years?

EVERY SINGLE DEATH IS AN ABSOLUTE TRAGEDY, AND EVERY SINGLE LIFE SAVED IS AN ABSOLUTE MIRACLE.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

What a load of crap.

A few years ago I was coming home with my family from a late-night Presanctified Gifts.  While we got out of our mini-van (go ahead and laugh) a guy in a Jeep yelled at my wife that he wanted to, as he put it, "kill you, you f-ing b****."  He hit the gas and drove at her.


However, I don't need you or your pathetic laws to save me from myself (or from anyone else), as the Good Lord gave me enough sense to at least have had a .38 DAO revolver on my person.  He's extremely lucky I wasn't carrying my Glock.  

 

And did you even *bother* to actually *read* the stories of your horrible "gun" victims (I've had firearms all my life and I've never seen one get up and bite a single person who didn't ask for it first)?

Quote
http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/bernardino-gomez-jr/  Investigators said Gomez appeared to have had gang-affiliations.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/gerald-smith/  Investigators said the shooting appeared to be gang-related, but added that Smith had no gang affiliation.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/alfonso-covarrubias/  Borihanh said investigators believe the shooting may have been gang-related, but police have no description of a suspect or vehicle.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/michael-douver/  The shooting is believed to be gang-related.
 If I were stupid enough to live in such an area, I sure as heck wouldn't be stupid enough to live there as unarmed as a New England Quaker on a Sunday morning buggy ride to church.


So you're telling me you would have shot a person over an incident of road rage? Perhaps you need to pause and reflect on that for a minute..

Further, please refrain from disrespecting my friends and family who have died and been buried in the cemetary by gun violence, the dead can't speak for themselves so I have to speak on their behalf, and you are free to your opinions, but you have NO RIGHT to be so disrespectful. You can diss me, you can diss the laws, but don't you DARE disrespect the dead, be they gangsters, innocents, or my own friends and family.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #95 on: January 18, 2012, 01:54:52 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Y'all sure do love the movies, unfortunately life is no action packed thriller.  Shootings are not romantic, they are a tragedy.  Perhaps I am a bit to personally acquanted with gun violence to see where y'all are coming from, but I see nothing honorable in shooting another person, even in self-defense. If folks are pushed to such an extreme, surely these should be grateful to God for His mercy and repentant in having been forced by circumstance to violence, rather than romanticize and glorify gun violence in self-defense as if this were the wild west or a dual.

Life is real y'all, realer than the movies, and bullets hurt and sometimes they even kill.

Its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #96 on: January 18, 2012, 02:17:18 PM »

There is a Starbucks in nearly every city in the US so people can talk about people who are beneath them.  Wink

Simply having personal preferences about quality of life doesn't make me think that I'm above other people.  As for coffee, I really only like to make it at home.  I'm too cheap to pay for something I can make better at home.

Quality of life, as opposed to standard of living or HDI, is rather difficult to quantify objectively, but, if you factor in risk analysis there are great benefits to global influence (not to mention the geographic advantage we enjoy, protected by two oceans). As for every day living, international risks aside, I'm glad you found somewhere you like but we would differ on what is essential to quality of life, I'd give great technological development far more weight than cultural pursuits and individual liberty more consideration than urban culture, but that's just a matter of personal preference.
   

I agree it is difficult to quantify and ultimately up to personal preference.  As far as technology goes, I'm content not being on the front lines as long as I have reasonably fast internet.  But you could hardly argue that a European style Urban life is antithetical to modernity (i.e Germany doesn't lag behind).  In the most wired societies like South Korea or Japan, I honestly think I'd go crazy if I spent much more than a few years there.  It is a toss up though as Korean food might be one of the best cuisines in the world. 

There you have it, the one place I find American culture lacking is in comparison to the technological aspects of South Korea and Japan's cultures and I would consider an area without 4G wireless data access and 100Mbps+ Internet access to be unfit for human habitation. Wink

Of course, the United States' problem with technological infrastructure is sheer scale...which also largely the cause of many of the cultural phenomena within the United States that you pointed out baffles foreigners. Our cities are amongst the most advanced in the world but you're obviously not going to find the same level of development in Wyoming or west Texas.
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« Reply #97 on: January 18, 2012, 02:50:08 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Y'all sure do love the movies, unfortunately life is no action packed thriller.  Shootings are not romantic, they are a tragedy.  Perhaps I am a bit to personally acquanted with gun violence to see where y'all are coming from, but I see nothing honorable in shooting another person, even in self-defense. If folks are pushed to such an extreme, surely these should be grateful to God for His mercy and repentant in having been forced by circumstance to violence, rather than romanticize and glorify gun violence in self-defense as if this were the wild west or a dual.

Life is real y'all, realer than the movies, and bullets hurt and sometimes they even kill.

Its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No s... bullets hurt and kill.  The question is, which hurts more?  Would you rather see innocent people get killed?  Because that's what you get.  The Von Maur shooting Punch mentioned took place in an Omaha mall.  A gun-free zone, supposedly.  Eight people died.  The poor pizza boy who got stabbed over $20 in an apartment's parking lot - I worked with him for a short time before getting fired.  He was unarmed. 

When a man out to do evil is killed it is a tragedy in that he has lost his chance at repentance, but that is of his own volition.  No one asked these people to walk into stores shooting innocent people.  No one asked for that.  No one wanted that.  I am thankful that there are people out there that care enough for their fellow human beings to stand up and help them when all their instincts are telling them that they should run and preserve their own lives.

Sometimes the greatest evil is when supposedly good men don't act to stop evil.  Anyone who tries to aide the evil in their crimes by making it easier for them are complicit in their crimes.
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« Reply #98 on: January 18, 2012, 03:12:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Y'all sure do love the movies, unfortunately life is no action packed thriller.  Shootings are not romantic, they are a tragedy.  Perhaps I am a bit to personally acquanted with gun violence to see where y'all are coming from, but I see nothing honorable in shooting another person, even in self-defense. If folks are pushed to such an extreme, surely these should be grateful to God for His mercy and repentant in having been forced by circumstance to violence, rather than romanticize and glorify gun violence in self-defense as if this were the wild west or a dual.

Life is real y'all, realer than the movies, and bullets hurt and sometimes they even kill.

Its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No s... bullets hurt and kill.  The question is, which hurts more?  Would you rather see innocent people get killed?  Because that's what you get.  The Von Maur shooting Punch mentioned took place in an Omaha mall.  A gun-free zone, supposedly.  Eight people died.  The poor pizza boy who got stabbed over $20 in an apartment's parking lot - I worked with him for a short time before getting fired.  He was unarmed. 

When a man out to do evil is killed it is a tragedy in that he has lost his chance at repentance, but that is of his own volition.  No one asked these people to walk into stores shooting innocent people.  No one asked for that.  No one wanted that.  I am thankful that there are people out there that care enough for their fellow human beings to stand up and help them when all their instincts are telling them that they should run and preserve their own lives.

Sometimes the greatest evil is when supposedly good men don't act to stop evil.  Anyone who tries to aide the evil in their crimes by making it easier for them are complicit in their crimes.
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« Reply #99 on: January 18, 2012, 05:31:48 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Y'all sure do love the movies, unfortunately life is no action packed thriller.  Shootings are not romantic, they are a tragedy.  Perhaps I am a bit to personally acquanted with gun violence to see where y'all are coming from, but I see nothing honorable in shooting another person, even in self-defense. If folks are pushed to such an extreme, surely these should be grateful to God for His mercy and repentant in having been forced by circumstance to violence, rather than romanticize and glorify gun violence in self-defense as if this were the wild west or a dual.

Life is real y'all, realer than the movies, and bullets hurt and sometimes they even kill.

Its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No s... bullets hurt and kill.  The question is, which hurts more?  Would you rather see innocent people get killed?  Because that's what you get.  The Von Maur shooting Punch mentioned took place in an Omaha mall.  A gun-free zone, supposedly.  Eight people died.  The poor pizza boy who got stabbed over $20 in an apartment's parking lot - I worked with him for a short time before getting fired.  He was unarmed. 

When a man out to do evil is killed it is a tragedy in that he has lost his chance at repentance, but that is of his own volition.  No one asked these people to walk into stores shooting innocent people.  No one asked for that.  No one wanted that.  I am thankful that there are people out there that care enough for their fellow human beings to stand up and help them when all their instincts are telling them that they should run and preserve their own lives.

Sometimes the greatest evil is when supposedly good men don't act to stop evil.  Anyone who tries to aide the evil in their crimes by making it easier for them are complicit in their crimes.

I agree with you on that for real.  However, clearly we have a fundamental disagreement as to what the "supposedly good men should do" and from my experience and perspective I think when the good men eliminate the options for guns then potential the violence is minimalized, but again, we all seem to disagree about this so I will hold my peace.  I don't think I can convince y'all, I just want to testify for the hundreds of readers who chose not to to respond and may either also agree with me or at the least have misunderstood what I am saying.  I believe folks need to stand up in faith and prayer, and leave the guns for the devil, but that is my opinion, and I am the one beating a dead horse now so alas..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #100 on: January 18, 2012, 05:53:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Y'all sure do love the movies, unfortunately life is no action packed thriller.  Shootings are not romantic, they are a tragedy.  Perhaps I am a bit to personally acquanted with gun violence to see where y'all are coming from, but I see nothing honorable in shooting another person, even in self-defense. If folks are pushed to such an extreme, surely these should be grateful to God for His mercy and repentant in having been forced by circumstance to violence, rather than romanticize and glorify gun violence in self-defense as if this were the wild west or a dual.

Life is real y'all, realer than the movies, and bullets hurt and sometimes they even kill.

Its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No s... bullets hurt and kill.  The question is, which hurts more?  Would you rather see innocent people get killed?  Because that's what you get.  The Von Maur shooting Punch mentioned took place in an Omaha mall.  A gun-free zone, supposedly.  Eight people died.  The poor pizza boy who got stabbed over $20 in an apartment's parking lot - I worked with him for a short time before getting fired.  He was unarmed. 

When a man out to do evil is killed it is a tragedy in that he has lost his chance at repentance, but that is of his own volition.  No one asked these people to walk into stores shooting innocent people.  No one asked for that.  No one wanted that.  I am thankful that there are people out there that care enough for their fellow human beings to stand up and help them when all their instincts are telling them that they should run and preserve their own lives.

Sometimes the greatest evil is when supposedly good men don't act to stop evil.  Anyone who tries to aide the evil in their crimes by making it easier for them are complicit in their crimes.

I agree with you on that for real.  However, clearly we have a fundamental disagreement as to what the "supposedly good men should do" and from my experience and perspective I think when the good men eliminate the options for guns then potential the violence is minimalized, but again, we all seem to disagree about this so I will hold my peace.  I don't think I can convince y'all, I just want to testify for the hundreds of readers who chose not to to respond and may either also agree with me or at the least have misunderstood what I am saying.  I believe folks need to stand up in faith and prayer, and leave the guns for the devil, but that is my opinion, and I am the one beating a dead horse now so alas..

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Hopefully I will never have evidence as to whether my method is more effective than yours or not.  I just like having the option.

And I will never argue that having a gun is a good replacement for prayer.  On the nightstand I have two Bibles, Icons of Christ, St. Joseph, and St. George (the Icon of the Theotokos is in the car), two prayer books, my Cross (when I am sleeping), and a bottle of Holy Water.  Only one Tokarev.   Wink
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« Reply #101 on: January 18, 2012, 06:04:30 PM »

Of course, the United States' problem with technological infrastructure is sheer scale...which also largely the cause of many of the cultural phenomena within the United States that you pointed out baffles foreigners. Our cities are amongst the most advanced in the world but you're obviously not going to find the same level of development in Wyoming or west Texas.

That's it in a nutshell.  The places such as Wyoming and west Texas have an impact well beyond what is proportional to their population, economic impact or cultural value within American culture. 
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« Reply #102 on: January 18, 2012, 08:07:18 PM »

The greatest of empire and such is really only of importance to social science and academia.  I'm personally far more interested in where my quality of life would be higher.  Granted that is highly subjective, but I personally don't value a lot of things connected to the suburban dream in America.  I'd much rather spend my salary on cultural pursuits, travel and the like rather than cars and an oversized house miles from the city center.  I enjoy walking to work, excellent public transportation, living in an apartment in the city center, shopping at farmer's market rather than a supermarket, etc.  While I see that things are slowly changing in the US (and unfortunately are in Europe as well), I think it'd be difficult to live the lifestyle I really wanted to live.  From the outside the US is a curious mix of third world religious fanaticism and ignorance mixed some of the best technology and development of the world.     

There is a Starbucks in nearly every city in the US so people can talk about people who are beneath them.  Wink

Simply having personal preferences about quality of life doesn't make me think that I'm above other people. 

No, but I was more reacting to the mention of third world fanaticism and ignorance (vague) in the US.
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« Reply #103 on: January 18, 2012, 11:43:56 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Y'all sure do love the movies, unfortunately life is no action packed thriller.  Shootings are not romantic, they are a tragedy.  Perhaps I am a bit to personally acquanted with gun violence to see where y'all are coming from, but I see nothing honorable in shooting another person, even in self-defense. If folks are pushed to such an extreme, surely these should be grateful to God for His mercy and repentant in having been forced by circumstance to violence, rather than romanticize and glorify gun violence in self-defense as if this were the wild west or a dual.

Life is real y'all, realer than the movies, and bullets hurt and sometimes they even kill.

Its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No s... bullets hurt and kill.  The question is, which hurts more?  Would you rather see innocent people get killed?  Because that's what you get.  The Von Maur shooting Punch mentioned took place in an Omaha mall.  A gun-free zone, supposedly.  Eight people died.  The poor pizza boy who got stabbed over $20 in an apartment's parking lot - I worked with him for a short time before getting fired.  He was unarmed. 

When a man out to do evil is killed it is a tragedy in that he has lost his chance at repentance, but that is of his own volition.  No one asked these people to walk into stores shooting innocent people.  No one asked for that.  No one wanted that.  I am thankful that there are people out there that care enough for their fellow human beings to stand up and help them when all their instincts are telling them that they should run and preserve their own lives.

Sometimes the greatest evil is when supposedly good men don't act to stop evil.  Anyone who tries to aide the evil in their crimes by making it easier for them are complicit in their crimes.

Matt and I used to shoot with the fellow that took out the two perps at Walgreens (one permanantly).  It tells a lot when you see how divided the community was over this.  The North Omaha crowd saying excessive force was used, and the poor perp was just trying to "turn his life around".  Meanwhile, the poor clerk that had the shotgun pointed at her, as well as her family and many of the other customers there were full of praise for the "gun nut" who evidentally watches too many movies.  The perp really did "turn his life around" after the first of four .40 S&W slugs hit him . . . literally.  All the prayers of the "Enough is Enough" crowd have done nothing.  But Benson has been pretty quiet after the Walgreens shooting, and the two perps gunned down at Benson Pawn (one dead and the other in a wheel chair for the rest of his life). 

And there was the poor guy who ran the Grillz and Jewelry shop, who really was trying to turn his life around (all involved had criminal records).  Four perps drove up.  Three got out of the car.  Two came into the shop while one guarded the door outside.  Two shots were fired at the owner by a perp who probably did not understand that the sights are on the top of the gun and not the side for a reason.  Thanks to this, both missed the store owner, who grabbed an SKS carbine that he kept behind the counter and killed the two perps in the store, injured the one guarding the door (shot through the door), and probably caused a skivies check for the driver (named "Light Bright") who got away.  It would just be another night in Omaha if it were not for the irony of it all.  One of the perps was there supposedly to pick up a set of grillz so he could attend the funeral of a friend who was killed in an attempted robbery.  The injured guy was shot previously by police for pulling a gun on them (why is he out of prison?  Why is he still alive?) You would think these people would learn not to mess with people who watch too many movies.
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« Reply #104 on: January 19, 2012, 02:00:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!






Matt and I used to shoot with the fellow that took out the two perps at Walgreens (one permanantly).  It tells a lot when you see how divided the community was over this.  The North Omaha crowd saying excessive force was used, and the poor perp was just trying to "turn his life around".  Meanwhile, the poor clerk that had the shotgun pointed at her, as well as her family and many of the other customers there were full of praise for the "gun nut" who evidentally watches too many movies.  The perp really did "turn his life around" after the first of four .40 S&W slugs hit him . . . literally.  All the prayers of the "Enough is Enough" crowd have done nothing.  But Benson has been pretty quiet after the Walgreens shooting, and the two perps gunned down at Benson Pawn (one dead and the other in a wheel chair for the rest of his life).  

You would think these people would learn not to mess with people who watch too many movies.

Dude, you watch to many movies for real.  Wallgreens policy is NOT to shoot at or draw down on robbers, but to let the robbery go down, and let the insurance cover the loss, because for real, what would have happened had that vigilante accidentally shot and killed that cashier he was trying to save? Leave shoot outs for the law, when I'm in a convenient store, if some folks come in guns out to rob the place, that last thing I want to worry about is if I'm going to get caught up in the cross fire by some wanna-be hero.  Again, its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #105 on: January 19, 2012, 02:43:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!






Matt and I used to shoot with the fellow that took out the two perps at Walgreens (one permanantly).  It tells a lot when you see how divided the community was over this.  The North Omaha crowd saying excessive force was used, and the poor perp was just trying to "turn his life around".  Meanwhile, the poor clerk that had the shotgun pointed at her, as well as her family and many of the other customers there were full of praise for the "gun nut" who evidentally watches too many movies.  The perp really did "turn his life around" after the first of four .40 S&W slugs hit him . . . literally.  All the prayers of the "Enough is Enough" crowd have done nothing.  But Benson has been pretty quiet after the Walgreens shooting, and the two perps gunned down at Benson Pawn (one dead and the other in a wheel chair for the rest of his life).  

You would think these people would learn not to mess with people who watch too many movies.

Dude, you watch to many movies for real.  Wallgreens policy is NOT to shoot at or draw down on robbers, but to let the robbery go down, and let the insurance cover the loss, because for real, what would have happened had that vigilante accidentally shot and killed that cashier he was trying to save? Leave shoot outs for the law, when I'm in a convenient store, if some folks come in guns out to rob the place, that last thing I want to worry about is if I'm going to get caught up in the cross fire by some wanna-be hero.  Again, its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Habte, as a side note, do you personally know the man who shot the crook at Walgreens?  If not, then your characterizations of him are overly judgmental and not based on fact. 

(I only bring this up because two of us have actually met the man in RL.)

For what it's worth, Walgreens policy of letting insurance attempt to replace killed or maimed loved ones is a moot point.  He was shopping there, not employed there.  Thank God that he was more concerned for his life and for the lives of others than he was in the monetary costs of liability.

As for leaving shoot outs to the law, where were they when this happened?  What did they do to stop it?  (I realize it is ridiculous to think that police can be in all places and at all times.  This is why I believe people should be allowed the means to defend themselves for those times when a police officer is not present.) 
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« Reply #106 on: January 19, 2012, 03:11:16 PM »

Quote
Again, its not the guns that make me nervous, is braggard and seemingly itchy trigger finger owners
For someone who is so anti-gun, you sure know alot about the gun owners...they're all itchy-fingered. Proof?

Quote
Leave shoot outs for the law, when I'm in a convenient store, if some folks come in guns out to rob the place, that last thing I want to worry about is if I'm going to get caught up in the cross fire by some wanna-be hero
Well, since more and more the robbers arent just taking money but killing witnesses, this isn't the case. If someone pulls a gun and tries to rob someone, the criminal is taking his/her life in their hands. I will protect myself. you wanna be a victime, be my guest. I'll be going home to my family.

PP

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« Reply #107 on: January 19, 2012, 03:40:05 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Habte, as a side note, do you personally know the man who shot the crook at Walgreens?  If not, then your characterizations of him are overly judgmental and not based on fact.  

(I only bring this up because two of us have actually met the man in RL.)

For what it's worth, Walgreens policy of letting insurance attempt to replace killed or maimed loved ones is a moot point.  He was shopping there, not employed there.  Thank God that he was more concerned for his life and for the lives of others than he was in the monetary costs of liability.

As for leaving shoot outs to the law, where were they when this happened?  What did they do to stop it?  (I realize it is ridiculous to think that police can be in all places and at all times.  This is why I believe people should be allowed the means to defend themselves for those times when a police officer is not present.)  

I apologize, that snap was not intended for the Wallgreen's shooter so much as folks here who have expressed several comments that are in my opinion a bit overzealous about "defending themselves" as if honestly they were looking for an opportunity Sad

Again, you missed my point.  What would have happened if this vigilante had accidentally shot or even killed the Wallgreen's cashier or some other customers?


Quote
Leave shoot outs for the law, when I'm in a convenient store, if some folks come in guns out to rob the place, that last thing I want to worry about is if I'm going to get caught up in the cross fire by some wanna-be hero
Well, since more and more the robbers arent just taking money but killing witnesses, this isn't the case. If someone pulls a gun and tries to rob someone, the criminal is taking his/her life in their hands. I will protect myself. you wanna be a victime, be my guest. I'll be going home to my family.

PP



What I don't want to be is the victim of a shoot out by a vigilante.  


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #108 on: January 19, 2012, 03:57:51 PM »

Quote
What would have happened if this vigilante had accidentally shot or even killed the Wallgreen's cashier or some other customers?
I answer your question with this, is it any different than a cop accidentally shooting someone?

Anyways, the instances of this happening are extraordinarily rare. using what-if's to legitimize things is dangerous. In fact abortion supporters do the same thing. It doesnt make them right either.

What is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. It is my responsibility to protect my family as I see fit. If someone enters my home to break in, I will defend my family.

This has nothing to do with a non-argument like a movie. Using that is simply because as usual, you have no facts for your argument. Simply more emotionally based nonsense.

However, its your business how you want to protect your family. Dont take away my way to do so.

Someone pulling a gun on someone attacking them with a gun is not a vigilante. Said person then going somewhere to start attacking suspected drug pushers or rapists with no provocation IS being a vigilante.

PP
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« Reply #109 on: January 19, 2012, 04:04:07 PM »

I understand where you are coming from in that regard, but I think the chances are very slim.  I also think that the usage of the word 'vigilante' is charged and unfair.  A vigilante is out looking for a criminal, not defending themselves from imminent attack.  

I don't know what would have happened if a bystander had been hit.  To date in Omaha we have had as many shark attacks as we've had innocent people killed by lawful CCW holders.  So I really don't have much of a basis for debating this.  In this instance only a few rounds were fired and all hit their mark.
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« Reply #110 on: January 19, 2012, 04:15:43 PM »

I understand where you are coming from in that regard, but I think the chances are very slim.

I don't know what would have happened if a bystander had been hit.  

Thank you for understanding, and lets just marinate on that last part for a minute then.

Quote
What would have happened if this vigilante had accidentally shot or even killed the Wallgreen's cashier or some other customers?
I answer your question with this, is it any different than a cop accidentally shooting someone?


Does it somehow make it all alright when police accidentally kill people? Funny, the dead folks and their loved ones might disagree Sad

Let me reiterate my point, I am not trying to convince y'all to necessarily get rid of your guns so much as to have a much less bravado approach to self-defense, some folks seem to be expressing a "I wish somebody would try something" mentality, and that it is what makes me anxious.  I'm just trying to ground this discussion in all possible realities, be it a wild-card bet or not, IF someone accidentally gets shot and killed that is part of the equation of having guns in our society.  This is precisely why in California we have limited carrying laws, and the official position of Los Angeles County Law enforcement is to disagree with folks carrying firearms, they feel it makes their job that much harder.

Quote
"Carrying guns openly in public is most certainly a recipe for disaster — Los Angeles police officers would certainly detain more people with guns which is always dangerous, and I'm glad that doesn't have to happen.

"On the Seal Beach piece [referring to the mass shooting in Seal Beach], that is an awful tragedy that point out just what it means to be living in a society that is armed as well as this one is. It turns a whim into reality, it turn random thoughts into distinct violence. And it's an awful cost of being so well armed."
LAPD Chief Charlie Beck

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #111 on: January 19, 2012, 04:21:52 PM »

I understand where you are coming from in that regard, but I think the chances are very slim.

I don't know what would have happened if a bystander had been hit.  

Thank you for understanding, and lets just marinate on that last part for a minute then.

Quote
What would have happened if this vigilante had accidentally shot or even killed the Wallgreen's cashier or some other customers?
I answer your question with this, is it any different than a cop accidentally shooting someone?


Does it somehow make it all alright when police accidentally kill people? Funny, the dead folks and their loved ones might disagree Sad

Let me reiterate my point, I am not trying to convince y'all to necessarily get rid of your guns so much as to have a much less bravado approach to self-defense, some folks seem to be expressing a "I wish somebody would try something" mentality, and that it is what makes me anxious.  I'm just trying to ground this discussion in all possible realities, be it a wild-card bet or not, IF someone accidentally gets shot and killed that is part of the equation of having guns in our society.  This is precisely why in California we have limited carrying laws, and the official position of Los Angeles County Law enforcement is to disagree with folks carrying firearms, they feel it makes their job that much harder.

Quote
"Carrying guns openly in public is most certainly a recipe for disaster — Los Angeles police officers would certainly detain more people with guns which is always dangerous, and I'm glad that doesn't have to happen.

"On the Seal Beach piece [referring to the mass shooting in Seal Beach], that is an awful tragedy that point out just what it means to be living in a society that is armed as well as this one is. It turns a whim into reality, it turn random thoughts into distinct violence. And it's an awful cost of being so well armed."
LAPD Chief Charlie Beck

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Quote
This is precisely why in California we have limited carrying laws, and the official position of Los Angeles County Law enforcement is to disagree with folks carrying firearms, they feel it makes their job that much harder
Which has done exactly nothing about gun violence in California. Only law-abiders will put their guns away when told to. You dont need to worry about law-abiders in the first place.

The facts have been provided more than a few times ion this site. By myself and others concerning gun laws. They are conveniently ignored for more emotion friendly arguments. The facts are very simple. Gun control does not reduce gun crime. I know facts are pesky things, but there they are.

PP
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« Reply #112 on: January 19, 2012, 04:27:18 PM »

**Bah, wont let me modify, sorry***

I'll give you an example. In my state of VA, gun crimes have changed a great deal since the state made it easier to get a gun.

Gun crimes have been unchanged or even increased in places where guns are either locally restricted, or have low ownership (Richmond area, northern VA)

However, gun crimes have dramatically gone down (and in some cases virtually disappeared) where legal gun ownership has increased (central, western, and southern Virginia).

State regulations for Virginia are some of the most lax in the country:

Quote
•Permit to purchase rifles and shotguns? No.

•Registration of rifles and shotguns? No.

•Licensing of owners of rifles and shotguns? No.

•Permit to carry rifles and shotguns? No.
Handguns
•Permit to purchase handgun? No.

•Registration of handguns? No.

•Licensing of owners of handguns? No.

•Permit to carry handguns? Yes. A permit is required if concealed.

PP
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« Reply #113 on: January 19, 2012, 04:30:05 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The facts are very simple. Gun control does not reduce gun crime. I know facts are pesky things, but there they are.

PP

Number of pistols sold in California from 1980-1989: FOUR MILLION

Number of homicides committed in Los Angeles County alone in 1992: almost 3000

Number of pistols sold in California AFTER gun-control laws from 1999-2009: TWO MILLION

Number of homicides committed in Los Angeles County alone in 2011: around 600

Excuse me brother, but facts really are pesky things aren't they Wink

Again, I'm done arguing, if y'all want guns, have em, but PLEASE be responsible.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #114 on: January 19, 2012, 04:34:12 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The facts are very simple. Gun control does not reduce gun crime. I know facts are pesky things, but there they are.

PP

Number of pistols sold in California from 1980-1989: FOUR MILLION

Number of homicides committed in Los Angeles County alone in 1992: almost 3000

Number of pistols sold in California AFTER gun-control laws from 1999-2009: TWO MILLION

Number of homicides committed in Los Angeles County alone in 2011: around 600

Excuse me brother, but facts really are pesky things aren't they Wink

Again, I'm done arguing, if y'all want guns, have em, but PLEASE be responsible.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
What percentage of those crimes were done by the legal owner of the weapon?

PP
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« Reply #115 on: January 19, 2012, 04:58:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Quote
In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales.
Quote
The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers.

Quote
According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."

Quote
Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #116 on: January 19, 2012, 05:02:33 PM »

Im not trying to re-start an argument, but I'd rather hear what a governmental agency has to say. PBS isn't exactly an unbiased source. Thats like me referencing Fox News or MSNBC concerning stuff like this.

PP
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« Reply #117 on: January 20, 2012, 09:34:08 PM »

I could not express it better myself:


"The Gun Is Civilization" by Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason  and
force.  If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of
either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding
under threat of force.  Every human interaction falls into one of
those two categories,
without exception.  Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact
through persuasion.
Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction and the
only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm,
as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use
reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your
threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on
equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal
footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on
equal footing with a carload of drunken guys with baseball bats.  The
gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers
between a
potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad
force equations.  These are the people who think that we'd be more
civilized if
all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier
for an [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if
the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or
by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's
potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the
young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a
civilized society.  A mugger, even an armed one, can only
make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him
a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal
that otherwise would only result in injury.  This argument is
fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are
won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on
the loser.

People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute
lethal force, watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come
out of it with a bloody lip at worst.  The fact that the gun makes
lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not
the stronger attacker.  If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an
octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter.  It simply
wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal
and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight,
but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means
that I cannot be forced, only persuaded.  I don't carry it because I'm
afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid.  It doesn't limit
the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only
the actions of those who would do so by force.  It removes force from
the equation... and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret.)

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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