Author Topic: Christ let go of his equality with God?  (Read 1148 times)

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Offline Anastasia1

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Christ let go of his equality with God?
« on: January 10, 2012, 03:53:39 AM »
I'm listening to the liturgy in this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz1L3xIYeus&feature=related, and the priest said something about Christ letting go of his equality with God. Can someone explain that more? Thank you.
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2012, 04:23:57 AM »
I'm listening to the liturgy in this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz1L3xIYeus&feature=related, and the priest said something about Christ letting go of his equality with God. Can someone explain that more? Thank you.

I think the priest says something like: "You the infinite, You the infinite being God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be held onto, but released it and emptied yourself, and took the form of a servant, and blessed my nature in Yourself, and fulfilled Your Law on my behalf."

This seems to be saying that the Son emptied Himself, by humbling Himself and becoming man. A very Orthodox concept (look up Kenosis for more).
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 04:24:31 AM by Cavaradossi »
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2012, 04:25:03 AM »
I'm listening to the liturgy in this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz1L3xIYeus&feature=related, and the priest said something about Christ letting go of his equality with God. Can someone explain that more? Thank you.

"Have this mind in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in schema as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on the cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Epistle to the Philippians, 2:5-11
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Offline Anastasia1

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2012, 04:48:17 AM »
Thanks guys!
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2012, 05:03:38 PM »
It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally, for Christ was never anything less than equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit at any time, and yet He did empty himself and did not take advantage of His consubstantiality. It goes along with EO prayers that say something like "on the Cross, in Paradise with the Thief, on the throne with the Father, etc. wast Thou O Christ filling all things" since, by virtue of His Godhead, he is everywhere present.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2012, 05:30:49 PM »
It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally
"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness"
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2012, 05:41:42 PM »
It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally
"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness"

+1

"But to us, the wisdom of God and the power of God."
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2012, 08:04:18 PM »
It is part of the Anaphora of St. Basil:

..."But when the fullness of time had come, you spoke to us through your Son himself, through whom you had also made the ages. He, who is the brightness of your glory and the express imprint of your substance, who bears all things by the word of his power, did not consider equality with you, God and Father, as a thing to grasped but, though he is God before the ages, he appeared on earth and lived among men; and taking flesh of a holy Virgin, he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of the body of our humiliation, so that he might make us in the likeness of the image of his glory."...

It is drawn from Gal. 4:4, Eph. 1:10, Hebr. 1:2-3, Phil. 2:6.

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/Basil%20noted[3].pdf
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2012, 08:10:08 PM »
It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally, for Christ was never anything less than equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit at any time, and yet He did empty himself and did not take advantage of His consubstantiality. It goes along with EO prayers that say something like "on the Cross, in Paradise with the Thief, on the throne with the Father, etc. wast Thou O Christ filling all things" since, by virtue of His Godhead, he is everywhere present.

This is terrible.

Persons are never "equal". Never. Get this, not even with themselves.
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Offline witega

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2012, 03:12:04 AM »
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Offline Jonathan

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2012, 05:19:02 PM »
I'm listening to the liturgy in this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz1L3xIYeus&feature=related, and the priest said something about Christ letting go of his equality with God. Can someone explain that more? Thank you.

I think the priest says something like: "You the infinite, You the infinite being God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be held onto, but released it and emptied yourself, and took the form of a servant, and blessed my nature in Yourself, and fulfilled Your Law on my behalf."


"Thou, Who art at all times, hast come unto us on earth. Thou hast come into the womb of the Virgin. Thou, the Infinite, being God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but humbled Thyself, and took the form of a servant; and blessed my nature in Thee; and fulfilled Thy Law, on my behalf." (Coptic Orthodox Liturgy of St. Gregory)

Offline Father H

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2012, 05:29:43 PM »
It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally, for Christ was never anything less than equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit at any time, and yet He did empty himself and did not take advantage of His consubstantiality. It goes along with EO prayers that say something like "on the Cross, in Paradise with the Thief, on the throne with the Father, etc. wast Thou O Christ filling all things" since, by virtue of His Godhead, he is everywhere present.

"In the tomb with the body and in hell with the soul, in paradise with the thief, and on the throne with the Father and the Holy Spirit wast Thou, O Christ, filling all things uncircumscribed."

Offline Father H

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2012, 05:35:16 PM »
It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally, for Christ was never anything less than equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit at any time, and yet He did empty himself and did not take advantage of His consubstantiality. It goes along with EO prayers that say something like "on the Cross, in Paradise with the Thief, on the throne with the Father, etc. wast Thou O Christ filling all things" since, by virtue of His Godhead, he is everywhere present.

This is terrible.

Persons are never "equal". Never. Get this, not even with themselves.

?  lol.  Are these persons with mpd, that they are not equal with themselves? 

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2012, 08:36:44 PM »
It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally, for Christ was never anything less than equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit at any time, and yet He did empty himself and did not take advantage of His consubstantiality. It goes along with EO prayers that say something like "on the Cross, in Paradise with the Thief, on the throne with the Father, etc. wast Thou O Christ filling all things" since, by virtue of His Godhead, he is everywhere present.

This is terrible.

Persons are never "equal". Never. Get this, not even with themselves.

?  lol.  Are these persons with mpd, that they are not equal with themselves? 


Well, if you were to actually take seriously just your own Trinitarian . . .

Forgot.

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Offline That person

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2012, 08:42:38 PM »
It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally, for Christ was never anything less than equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit at any time, and yet He did empty himself and did not take advantage of His consubstantiality. It goes along with EO prayers that say something like "on the Cross, in Paradise with the Thief, on the throne with the Father, etc. wast Thou O Christ filling all things" since, by virtue of His Godhead, he is everywhere present.

This is terrible.

Persons are never "equal". Never. Get this, not even with themselves.

?  lol.  Are these persons with mpd, that they are not equal with themselves? 


Well, if you were to actually take seriously just your own Trinitarian . . .

Forgot.

My new slogan:

What's the point?
I would like to hear where you're going with this sometime, here or elsewhere.
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Offline copticmind

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2012, 06:38:11 PM »
I'm listening to the liturgy in this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz1L3xIYeus&feature=related, and the priest said something about Christ letting go of his equality with God. Can someone explain that more? Thank you.

I think the priest says something like: "You the infinite, You the infinite being God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be held onto, but released it and emptied yourself, and took the form of a servant, and blessed my nature in Yourself, and fulfilled Your Law on my behalf."


"Thou, Who art at all times, hast come unto us on earth. Thou hast come into the womb of the Virgin. Thou, the Infinite, being God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but humbled Thyself, and took the form of a servant; and blessed my nature in Thee; and fulfilled Thy Law, on my behalf." (Coptic Orthodox Liturgy of St. Gregory)

As far as I know, there is at least a couple of English translations of the Coptic Liturgy of saint Gregory, the one prayed by Father Antonious in the video, and the one quoted by Jonathan are examples.

I returned to the original Coptic version of this part, it says:

ⲡⲓⲁⲧϣⲟⲡϥ ⲉⲕⲟⲓ ʹⲛⲛⲟⲩϯ ʹⲛⲟⲩϩⲱⲗⲉⲙ ⲁⲛ ʹⲉⲧⲁⲕⲙⲉⲩʹⲓ ⲉⲣⲟϥ  ⲉⲑⲣⲉⲕϣⲱⲡⲓ ʹⲛϩⲩⲥⲟⲥ ⲛⲉⲙ ⲪϮ

Transliterated: Pi.at.shopf ekoi en.nouti en.ou.wholem an et.ak.mev'ee erof eth.rek.shopi en.hisos nem ef.nouti

It can be roughly translated as: You, the uncontainable, being God, didn't consider a theft, to be equal (the Greek word ισος is the one used here) with God.

So, I believe that the translation quoted by Jonathan here is the closest to the original Coptic version. And fortunately, it is clearer and easier to understand.
Ⲡⲁϭⲟⲓⲥ Ⲓⲏⲥ Ⲡⲭⲥ ⳿ⲡϣⲏⲣⲓ ⳿ⲙ⳿Ⲫⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛⲁⲓ ⲛⲏⲓ ⲁⲛⲟⲕ ⲡⲓⲣⲉϥⲉⲣⲛⲟⲃⲓ
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Christ let go of his equality with God?
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2012, 07:19:56 PM »
Besides, that part of the Liturgy is paraphrased from a Greek epistle, anyway.
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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