OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 01, 2014, 05:14:00 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Christ let go of his equality with God?  (Read 984 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Anastasia1
My warrior name is Beyoncé Pad Thai
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Occasionally traveling, Armenian.
Posts: 1,181



« on: January 10, 2012, 03:53:39 AM »

I'm listening to the liturgy in this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz1L3xIYeus&feature=related, and the priest said something about Christ letting go of his equality with God. Can someone explain that more? Thank you.
Logged

Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,556



« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2012, 04:23:57 AM »

I'm listening to the liturgy in this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz1L3xIYeus&feature=related, and the priest said something about Christ letting go of his equality with God. Can someone explain that more? Thank you.

I think the priest says something like: "You the infinite, You the infinite being God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be held onto, but released it and emptied yourself, and took the form of a servant, and blessed my nature in Yourself, and fulfilled Your Law on my behalf."

This seems to be saying that the Son emptied Himself, by humbling Himself and becoming man. A very Orthodox concept (look up Kenosis for more).
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 04:24:31 AM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2012, 04:25:03 AM »

I'm listening to the liturgy in this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz1L3xIYeus&feature=related, and the priest said something about Christ letting go of his equality with God. Can someone explain that more? Thank you.

"Have this mind in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in schema as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on the cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Epistle to the Philippians, 2:5-11
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Anastasia1
My warrior name is Beyoncé Pad Thai
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Occasionally traveling, Armenian.
Posts: 1,181



« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2012, 04:48:17 AM »

Thanks guys!
Logged

Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2012, 05:03:38 PM »

It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally, for Christ was never anything less than equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit at any time, and yet He did empty himself and did not take advantage of His consubstantiality. It goes along with EO prayers that say something like "on the Cross, in Paradise with the Thief, on the throne with the Father, etc. wast Thou O Christ filling all things" since, by virtue of His Godhead, he is everywhere present.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2012, 05:30:49 PM »

It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally
"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness"
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2012, 05:41:42 PM »

It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally
"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness"

+1

"But to us, the wisdom of God and the power of God."
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,891


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2012, 08:04:18 PM »

It is part of the Anaphora of St. Basil:

..."But when the fullness of time had come, you spoke to us through your Son himself, through whom you had also made the ages. He, who is the brightness of your glory and the express imprint of your substance, who bears all things by the word of his power, did not consider equality with you, God and Father, as a thing to grasped but, though he is God before the ages, he appeared on earth and lived among men; and taking flesh of a holy Virgin, he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of the body of our humiliation, so that he might make us in the likeness of the image of his glory."...

It is drawn from Gal. 4:4, Eph. 1:10, Hebr. 1:2-3, Phil. 2:6.

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/Basil%20noted[3].pdf
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,488



« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2012, 08:10:08 PM »

It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally, for Christ was never anything less than equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit at any time, and yet He did empty himself and did not take advantage of His consubstantiality. It goes along with EO prayers that say something like "on the Cross, in Paradise with the Thief, on the throne with the Father, etc. wast Thou O Christ filling all things" since, by virtue of His Godhead, he is everywhere present.

This is terrible.

Persons are never "equal". Never. Get this, not even with themselves.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2012, 03:12:04 AM »

One of my favorite icons:

Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 800


WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2012, 05:19:02 PM »

I'm listening to the liturgy in this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz1L3xIYeus&feature=related, and the priest said something about Christ letting go of his equality with God. Can someone explain that more? Thank you.

I think the priest says something like: "You the infinite, You the infinite being God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be held onto, but released it and emptied yourself, and took the form of a servant, and blessed my nature in Yourself, and fulfilled Your Law on my behalf."


"Thou, Who art at all times, hast come unto us on earth. Thou hast come into the womb of the Virgin. Thou, the Infinite, being God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but humbled Thyself, and took the form of a servant; and blessed my nature in Thee; and fulfilled Thy Law, on my behalf." (Coptic Orthodox Liturgy of St. Gregory)
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2012, 05:29:43 PM »

It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally, for Christ was never anything less than equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit at any time, and yet He did empty himself and did not take advantage of His consubstantiality. It goes along with EO prayers that say something like "on the Cross, in Paradise with the Thief, on the throne with the Father, etc. wast Thou O Christ filling all things" since, by virtue of His Godhead, he is everywhere present.

"In the tomb with the body and in hell with the soul, in paradise with the thief, and on the throne with the Father and the Holy Spirit wast Thou, O Christ, filling all things uncircumscribed."
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2012, 05:35:16 PM »

It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally, for Christ was never anything less than equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit at any time, and yet He did empty himself and did not take advantage of His consubstantiality. It goes along with EO prayers that say something like "on the Cross, in Paradise with the Thief, on the throne with the Father, etc. wast Thou O Christ filling all things" since, by virtue of His Godhead, he is everywhere present.

This is terrible.

Persons are never "equal". Never. Get this, not even with themselves.

?  lol.  Are these persons with mpd, that they are not equal with themselves? 
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,488



« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2012, 08:36:44 PM »

It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally, for Christ was never anything less than equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit at any time, and yet He did empty himself and did not take advantage of His consubstantiality. It goes along with EO prayers that say something like "on the Cross, in Paradise with the Thief, on the throne with the Father, etc. wast Thou O Christ filling all things" since, by virtue of His Godhead, he is everywhere present.

This is terrible.

Persons are never "equal". Never. Get this, not even with themselves.

?  lol.  Are these persons with mpd, that they are not equal with themselves? 


Well, if you were to actually take seriously just your own Trinitarian . . .

Forgot.

My new slogan:

What's the point?
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
That person
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 1,158


Long live Commie Superman


« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2012, 08:42:38 PM »

It seems like an imprecise translation, or something that should not be taken too literally, for Christ was never anything less than equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit at any time, and yet He did empty himself and did not take advantage of His consubstantiality. It goes along with EO prayers that say something like "on the Cross, in Paradise with the Thief, on the throne with the Father, etc. wast Thou O Christ filling all things" since, by virtue of His Godhead, he is everywhere present.

This is terrible.

Persons are never "equal". Never. Get this, not even with themselves.

?  lol.  Are these persons with mpd, that they are not equal with themselves? 


Well, if you were to actually take seriously just your own Trinitarian . . .

Forgot.

My new slogan:

What's the point?
I would like to hear where you're going with this sometime, here or elsewhere.
Logged

"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo

Movie reviews you can trust.
copticmind
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Alexandria
Posts: 108


GeorgeFahim
WWW
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2012, 06:38:11 PM »

I'm listening to the liturgy in this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz1L3xIYeus&feature=related, and the priest said something about Christ letting go of his equality with God. Can someone explain that more? Thank you.

I think the priest says something like: "You the infinite, You the infinite being God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be held onto, but released it and emptied yourself, and took the form of a servant, and blessed my nature in Yourself, and fulfilled Your Law on my behalf."


"Thou, Who art at all times, hast come unto us on earth. Thou hast come into the womb of the Virgin. Thou, the Infinite, being God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but humbled Thyself, and took the form of a servant; and blessed my nature in Thee; and fulfilled Thy Law, on my behalf." (Coptic Orthodox Liturgy of St. Gregory)

As far as I know, there is at least a couple of English translations of the Coptic Liturgy of saint Gregory, the one prayed by Father Antonious in the video, and the one quoted by Jonathan are examples.

I returned to the original Coptic version of this part, it says:

ⲡⲓⲁⲧϣⲟⲡϥ ⲉⲕⲟⲓ ʹⲛⲛⲟⲩϯ ʹⲛⲟⲩϩⲱⲗⲉⲙ ⲁⲛ ʹⲉⲧⲁⲕⲙⲉⲩʹⲓ ⲉⲣⲟϥ  ⲉⲑⲣⲉⲕϣⲱⲡⲓ ʹⲛϩⲩⲥⲟⲥ ⲛⲉⲙ ⲪϮ

Transliterated: Pi.at.shopf ekoi en.nouti en.ou.wholem an et.ak.mev'ee erof eth.rek.shopi en.hisos nem ef.nouti

It can be roughly translated as: You, the uncontainable, being God, didn't consider a theft, to be equal (the Greek word ισος is the one used here) with God.

So, I believe that the translation quoted by Jonathan here is the closest to the original Coptic version. And fortunately, it is clearer and easier to understand.
Logged

Ⲡⲁϭⲟⲓⲥ Ⲓⲏⲥ Ⲡⲭⲥ ⳿ⲡϣⲏⲣⲓ ⳿ⲙ⳿Ⲫⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛⲁⲓ ⲛⲏⲓ ⲁⲛⲟⲕ ⲡⲓⲣⲉϥⲉⲣⲛⲟⲃⲓ
يا ربي يسوع المسيح ابن الله ارحمني أنا الخاطئ
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2012, 07:19:56 PM »

Besides, that part of the Liturgy is paraphrased from a Greek epistle, anyway.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.08 seconds with 43 queries.