OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 28, 2014, 07:12:49 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Nashville Christian activist questions scope of anti-bullying law  (Read 1843 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
GTAsoldier
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: God knows what lives in me in place of me....
Posts: 443


GTAsoldier
« on: January 09, 2012, 02:14:55 PM »

Quote
NASHVILLE — Former state lawmaker-turned Christian conservative activist David Fowler is squaring off in a new fight with gay-rights activists, this time over his effort to change Tennessee's anti-bullying law for students.

Fowler, a former Republican state senator from Signal Mountain, is president of the Family Action Council of Tennessee. The group's December newsletter says it wants "to make sure [the law] protects the religious liberty and free speech rights of students who want to express their views on homosexuality."

In an interview, Fowler said, "the purpose is to stop bullying, not create special classes of people who are more important than others."

But leaders of the Tennessee Equality Project, a gay-rights group, charge the legislation "would give students a 'license to bully' that allows them to hide their irrational biases behind an extreme religious belief."

The legislation did not move in the General Assembly last year as lawmakers battled over other gay-related legislation that drew national attention.

The Senate sponsor of changes to the bullying law, Sen. Jim Tracy, R-Shelbville, is "reviewing the legislation" and will likely "narrow" the "very broad" current bill, a Tracy aide said Tuesday.

The Fowler-backed bill says anti-bullying programs and measures can't use materials or training that "explicitly or implicitly promote a political agenda [and] make the characteristics of the victim the focus rather than the conduct of the person engaged in harassment, intimidation, or bullying."

What say ye?

- GTA
Logged

God be merciful to us sinners.

Quote from: IoanC
the best way of conveying God's love to people is through your own presence and deeds.
No longer posting on this forum. Thanks to all the helpful people who inspired me. God bless.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2012, 02:37:10 PM »

It seems similar to hate crime legislation, which is vile in and of itself.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2012, 02:50:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

It seems similar to hate crime legislation, which is vile in and of itself.

PP

Care to elaborate?

Quote
NASHVILLE — Former state lawmaker-turned Christian conservative activist David Fowler is squaring off in a new fight with gay-rights activists, this time over his effort to change Tennessee's anti-bullying law for students.

Fowler, a former Republican state senator from Signal Mountain, is president of the Family Action Council of Tennessee. The group's December newsletter says it wants "to make sure [the law] protects the religious liberty and free speech rights of students who want to express their views on homosexuality."

In an interview, Fowler said, "the purpose is to stop bullying, not create special classes of people who are more important than others."

But leaders of the Tennessee Equality Project, a gay-rights group, charge the legislation "would give students a 'license to bully' that allows them to hide their irrational biases behind an extreme religious belief."

The legislation did not move in the General Assembly last year as lawmakers battled over other gay-related legislation that drew national attention.

The Senate sponsor of changes to the bullying law, Sen. Jim Tracy, R-Shelbville, is "reviewing the legislation" and will likely "narrow" the "very broad" current bill, a Tracy aide said Tuesday.

The Fowler-backed bill says anti-bullying programs and measures can't use materials or training that "explicitly or implicitly promote a political agenda [and] make the characteristics of the victim the focus rather than the conduct of the person engaged in harassment, intimidation, or bullying."

What say ye?

- GTA

Religion is never an excuse for bullying.  A few weeks back I had to intervene in a very heated discussion where an atheist kid was badgering an openly religious girl with nonsensical questions that were becoming very rude and even abusive.  I didn't stop it by myself bullying the bully, rather I simply intervened and positively shifted the discussion back on track while politely admonishing the rudeness, modelling better behavior, and facilitating a vocal compromise between the two that even ended amicably.  Bullies in the classroom need to be addressed at every instance, period, and I say this as an educator.  There is no room in our schools for intolerance, disrespect, or bigotry, even if veiled behind religious sentiments.  

Further, this specific kind of homosexual bullying is dangerous and equally needs to be addressed, homosexual students deserve the same protection and emphasis as any other kids in our classes, in fact since they are often targeted especially. A homosexual student was gunned down point blank in the science lab in a local middle school a few years back, these are serious matters.  In education, we have literally tens of millions of students, and Murphy's Law is always applicable, every crazy and wild-shot possibility can and inevitably does happen, so we in education are learning to be extra cautious in our approach and try to cover every potentiality.  No body in my classes calls things they don't like "gay" in the dismissive or insults a person by calling them a "fag" even if I myself religiously disagree with homosexuality, it is not my place to judge any one else's sins, but it is my place as a teacher to properly and effectively manage my classroom, and laws and discussions like the OP are a valuable tool.

Stay Blessed,
habte selassie

« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 02:52:56 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2012, 02:52:53 PM »

How bullies should be handled:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvijyBIgazE

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 722



« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2012, 03:33:09 PM »

The problem with "hate-crime" and "anti-bullying" legislation is that attempts to discern and then punish the motivation behind the behavior instead of punishing the actual behavior.

This results in certain actions being classed as "hate crimes" when a member or members of one group attacks a member or members of another group but not so when the situation is reversed.

Pure and utter nonsense!

If you assault someone (except in self-defense), what difference does the motivation make? It's the ACTION that is supposed to be illegal.
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2012, 04:47:06 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The problem with "hate-crime" and "anti-bullying" legislation is that attempts to discern and then punish the motivation behind the behavior instead of punishing the actual behavior.

This results in certain actions being classed as "hate crimes" when a member or members of one group attacks a member or members of another group but not so when the situation is reversed.

Pure and utter nonsense!

If you assault someone (except in self-defense), what difference does the motivation make? It's the ACTION that is supposed to be illegal.

Do you have any example examples to this scenario? It seems rather unlikely to me. Further, your second analysis is not legal nor ethical, of course the motivation determines the sentence for example, the different between premeditated murder and accidental homicide, the difference between a  spontaneous bar fight and a strategic attack.  Hate crimes are not just thrown out there everyday casually in the law, they are applied when pertinent, and as laws they are valuable deterrents to tell those filled with hate or prejudice that violence will never be tolerable expressions of their opinions, and further, it is a potent symbol in our society to tell all folks we are all in it together and that we mutually look out for the interests, protection, equality, and safety of all people.  When a majority gangs up on a minority, the majority benefits from group-think and the strength of pack-loyalty, whereas legislation like these equalize the bar, and put the individuals, both victim and attacker on a level playing field where the attacker can't fall back on the sympathy of the majority and the victim is not ignored by a numbers game. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2012, 05:07:26 PM »

Well, the fact that in 2001 a crime against a black person from a white person is 28 times more likely to be considered a hate crime than black on white?
My source: Race and crime: a biosocial analysis

Furthermore:
Of the 6,225 known offenders of hate crimes, 62.4 percent were white, 18.5 percent were black, and 7.3 percent were groups of individuals of various races. The race was unknown for 10.2 percent of offenders (which is silly concidering that aover 65% of all hate crimes are of a racial nature).

Now, if you note the statistics above and factor in that 45% of black crime is against white folks (and the fact that the vast majority 80%+ of that crime is of a violent nature) the conclusion should be obvious. White people are singled out in hate crime legislation.

All of the information I provided is on the FBI's website for statistical analysis of crimes in the year 2010.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Rdunbar123
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 161


« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2012, 05:10:14 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The problem with "hate-crime" and "anti-bullying" legislation is that attempts to discern and then punish the motivation behind the behavior instead of punishing the actual behavior.

This results in certain actions being classed as "hate crimes" when a member or members of one group attacks a member or members of another group but not so when the situation is reversed.

Pure and utter nonsense!

If you assault someone (except in self-defense), what difference does the motivation make? It's the ACTION that is supposed to be illegal.

Do you have any example examples to this scenario? It seems rather unlikely to me. Further, your second analysis is not legal nor ethical, of course the motivation determines the sentence for example, the different between premeditated murder and accidental homicide, the difference between a  spontaneous bar fight and a strategic attack.  Hate crimes are not just thrown out there everyday casually in the law, they are applied when pertinent, and as laws they are valuable deterrents to tell those filled with hate or prejudice that violence will never be tolerable expressions of their opinions, and further, it is a potent symbol in our society to tell all folks we are all in it together and that we mutually look out for the interests, protection, equality, and safety of all people.  When a majority gangs up on a minority, the majority benefits from group-think and the strength of pack-loyalty, whereas legislation like these equalize the bar, and put the individuals, both victim and attacker on a level playing field where the attacker can't fall back on the sympathy of the majority and the victim is not ignored by a numbers game. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I would reverse the question on you. do you have examples of when a member of a minority group was accused of a hate crime against a member of a majority group. If someone beats someone up it is by definition a hate crime regardless of group identity.
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2012, 05:36:39 PM »

 
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
California Penal Code section 422.55 defines a hate crime as “a criminal act committed, in whole or in part, because of one
or more of the following actual or perceived characteristics of the victim: (1) disability, (2) gender,
(3) nationality, (4) race or ethnicity, (5) religion, (6) sexual orientation

Quote
District Attorney Gregory D. Totten announced today that Seth Taylor (DOB 7/28/74), a peace officer working for the California Highway Patrol, has pleaded guilty to three violations of Penal Code section 415(3),
http://da.countyofventura.org/09-080a.htm




Quote
Data compiled by the Attorney General's staff from the state's 58 counties also showed that 361 hate crime cases were referred for prosecution in 2010, down from 479 the year prior. Of the 166 hate crime cases that reached disposition by the end of 2010, 70 of them resulted in hate crime convictions
http://blogs.sacbee.com/crime/archives/2011/08/ca-attorney-gen.html
Quote
Anti-Hispanic hate crime events 81 in 2009,  Anti-gay hate crime events 120 in 2009, Anti-black hate crime events 376 in 2009. Violent crime offenses  906 in 2009
http://ag.ca.gov/cjsc/publications/hatecrimes/hc09/preface09.pdf

Quote
Clawson was convicted following a 3-day trial. The evidence at trial showed that on the evening of July 6, 2008, Clawson entered Riley’s Bar & Grill in Chico while the victim was sitting inside with a friend. Shortly after entering the bar, Clawson used a racially-derogatory term to object to the victim’s presence. Clawson repeated this slur several times and, a short while later, without any verbal or physical provocation, approached and punched the victim in the face. The assault rendered the victim unconscious and inflicted injuries to his face and mouth.
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2010/March/10-crt-308.html


Quote
A jury deliberated approximately 90 minutes before delivering its verdict against Georgia Silva, 52, and husband Joseph Silva, 56.

Vishal Wadhwa, 40, a San Franciscan bank executive, said that, after he asked the Silvas about their racial slurs toward Wadhwa's fiancé, the Silvas followed him and beat him viciously in the El Dorado Beach area in July, 2007. Several people witnessed the beatings.

Georgia Silva had called Wadhwa’s fiancée, Ayesha Matthews and her cousin, “Indian sluts and whores.” Prosecutors found many neighbors who had trouble with the Silvas. One testified about a fight where Mr. Silva wielded a baseball bat, shouting racial slurs at a Latina and her biracial daughter. In the beating, Georgia Silva held Wadhwa down while her husband kicked and punched him several times in the head, fracturing his skull. They called him, “Indian piece of shit,” “terrorists” and “relatives of Osama bin Laden.”
http://www.apimovement.com/lake-tahoe/california-couple-convicted-lake-tahoe-hate-crime


stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 05:40:21 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2012, 05:40:40 PM »

Habte, I would appreciate your thoughts on my post above.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2012, 05:47:18 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Well, the fact that in 2001 a crime against a black person from a white person is 28 times more likely to be considered a hate crime than black on white?
My source: Race and crime: a biosocial analysis

Furthermore:
Of the 6,225 known offenders of hate crimes, 62.4 percent were white, 18.5 percent were black, and 7.3 percent were groups of individuals of various races. The race was unknown for 10.2 percent of offenders (which is silly concidering that aover 65% of all hate crimes are of a racial nature).

Now, if you note the statistics above and factor in that 45% of black crime is against white folks (and the fact that the vast majority 80%+ of that crime is of a violent nature) the conclusion should be obvious. White people are singled out in hate crime legislation.

All of the information I provided is on the FBI's website for statistical analysis of crimes in the year 2010.

PP

No, the rightful conclusion is that duh, white folks are are a demographic majority commit more crimes, and here is another one, duh, white folks just might be committing racists crimes as well, whether or not you'd like to accept what the data YOU cited suggests..

Further, wrong sir, you are conflating two separate issues, the data for crime and the data for specifically hate crime. Further, hate crime is very specific, and if black folks commit specifically hate crimes against white folks then they also should face hate crime prosecution, so you are conflating yet another separate issue.  If you see hate-crime legislation as not being equally enforced that is separate than if hate-crime legislation itself is effective, which it is, which is precisely why hate-crimes are down year after year.  I agree that ALL hate crimes should be treated equally and convicted fairly, but I resent the undertones of your assertions, and I won't pull your covers but I can read between all your lines just so we're clear here Wink



stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2012, 06:03:41 PM »

Quote
No, the rightful conclusion is that duh, white folks are are a demographic majority commit more crimes
That is not what I was citing at all. I was not speaking of crime in general. I was speaking of hate crimes.
Quote
and here is another one, duh, white folks just might be committing racists crimes as well, whether or not you'd like to accept what the data YOU cited suggests
Of course white folks are going to commit racist crimes. However, might I point out that there is a huge gap between whites convicted of hate crimes than blacks although the numbers doint represent that in the statistics.

My whole premise is that hate crime laws are being prosecuted far differently depending on race. They should not exist at all. A crime is a crime. The numbers will NEVER equal out because of the premise on how the laws were written and for what reason.

Also, there is nothing underlying in what I said. Facts are facts. Please dont delve into "racist" accusations. I'd hate to embarass you with my family's racial make-up. mmmkay?

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,975



« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2012, 12:03:23 PM »

I don't like any of these blanketing laws.  It's just one more layer of legislation and one more excuse for people not to think and just to judge. 

It often becomes a case of "Asian man shoots Eskimo.  Oh my!  He shot that man just because he was an Eskimo and all Asians are racist against Eskimos!!!"

When the facts get ignored because they don't fit some perceived notion of how things should be, I have a problem.  What if the Eskimo was raping the Asian guy's daughter?  What if the Eskimo had on a real nice pair of sneakers and the Asian had nothing against Eskimos, he just wanted to rob him?  Unless the Asian man was screaming "die die die you furry hooded harpoon jockey" when he killed him, there are too many motivations for the crime that will get overlooked in all the hate hyperbole.  And in the end, it's the murder that is the crime.  If it can be proven that there was a racial reason for the murder, then there should already be plenty of evidence that it was a premeditated murder. 

What I would hate to see happen is in the first instance where the Asian man shoots the Eskimo in defense of his family, that he gets painted with the same brush as some Gwaelo-hating Triad before all the facts are considered.
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2012, 12:21:57 PM »

Thats the thing. When this argument comes up, and the facts and numbers are presented, the same tired old hyper-emotional reactionary statements are made. These laws do nothing but divide people.

Another perfect example:
If hate crime legislation was so wonderful and makes an impact why has it made no inroad per capita compared to places with no hate crime laws (or minimal laws)?

Comparing California's hate crime convictions and crimes that would be considered hate crimes in  states with none or little legislation are negligible. If hate crime laws were so powerful, there would be a large divide. There is not. By the way, these comparisons are by capita, not total population (which would be unfair to large states). This information can be found on the anti-defamation league's website, oddly enough who promote hate crime legislation.

The states I compared was California (full hate crime laws), Wyoming (none), South Carolina (institutional vandalism only), and Indiana (institutional vandalism only).


There is no impact. These laws do nothing but discriminate.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,975



« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2012, 12:43:21 PM »

Thats the thing. When this argument comes up, and the facts and numbers are presented, the same tired old hyper-emotional reactionary statements are made. These laws do nothing but divide people.

Ever wonder if that is the point?  Divide et impera?
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2012, 12:49:42 PM »

Thats the thing. When this argument comes up, and the facts and numbers are presented, the same tired old hyper-emotional reactionary statements are made. These laws do nothing but divide people.

Ever wonder if that is the point?  Divide et impera?
Worked for Caesar......

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
stavros_388
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: +
Posts: 1,259



« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2012, 01:00:41 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

It seems similar to hate crime legislation, which is vile in and of itself.

PP

Care to elaborate?

Quote
NASHVILLE — Former state lawmaker-turned Christian conservative activist David Fowler is squaring off in a new fight with gay-rights activists, this time over his effort to change Tennessee's anti-bullying law for students.

Fowler, a former Republican state senator from Signal Mountain, is president of the Family Action Council of Tennessee. The group's December newsletter says it wants "to make sure [the law] protects the religious liberty and free speech rights of students who want to express their views on homosexuality."

In an interview, Fowler said, "the purpose is to stop bullying, not create special classes of people who are more important than others."

But leaders of the Tennessee Equality Project, a gay-rights group, charge the legislation "would give students a 'license to bully' that allows them to hide their irrational biases behind an extreme religious belief."

The legislation did not move in the General Assembly last year as lawmakers battled over other gay-related legislation that drew national attention.

The Senate sponsor of changes to the bullying law, Sen. Jim Tracy, R-Shelbville, is "reviewing the legislation" and will likely "narrow" the "very broad" current bill, a Tracy aide said Tuesday.

The Fowler-backed bill says anti-bullying programs and measures can't use materials or training that "explicitly or implicitly promote a political agenda [and] make the characteristics of the victim the focus rather than the conduct of the person engaged in harassment, intimidation, or bullying."

What say ye?

- GTA

Religion is never an excuse for bullying.  A few weeks back I had to intervene in a very heated discussion where an atheist kid was badgering an openly religious girl with nonsensical questions that were becoming very rude and even abusive.  I didn't stop it by myself bullying the bully, rather I simply intervened and positively shifted the discussion back on track while politely admonishing the rudeness, modelling better behavior, and facilitating a vocal compromise between the two that even ended amicably.  Bullies in the classroom need to be addressed at every instance, period, and I say this as an educator.  There is no room in our schools for intolerance, disrespect, or bigotry, even if veiled behind religious sentiments.  

Further, this specific kind of homosexual bullying is dangerous and equally needs to be addressed, homosexual students deserve the same protection and emphasis as any other kids in our classes, in fact since they are often targeted especially. A homosexual student was gunned down point blank in the science lab in a local middle school a few years back, these are serious matters.  In education, we have literally tens of millions of students, and Murphy's Law is always applicable, every crazy and wild-shot possibility can and inevitably does happen, so we in education are learning to be extra cautious in our approach and try to cover every potentiality.  No body in my classes calls things they don't like "gay" in the dismissive or insults a person by calling them a "fag" even if I myself religiously disagree with homosexuality, it is not my place to judge any one else's sins, but it is my place as a teacher to properly and effectively manage my classroom, and laws and discussions like the OP are a valuable tool.

Stay Blessed,
habte selassie

As a fellow educator, I commend your stance!

I'm with you. Nobody says something or someone is "gay" in my classes and gets away with it.

On the other hand, I do worry that some anti-bullying media and promotion material can sometimes subtly encourage sexual experimentation and confuse those who are not necessarily "homosexual", but are particularly impressionable and very uncertain about their self-image, sexuality, and so on. It is such a very fine line. Nonetheless, the bullying of homosexuals, especially in school, simply has to be stopped at this point.

Logged

"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2012, 01:02:58 PM »

Quote
Nonetheless, the bullying of homosexuals, especially in school, simply has to be stopped at this point
Absolutely, but there should not be special treatment or special prosecution.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,451


fleem
WWW
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2012, 01:17:24 PM »

For what it's worth, the law should protect everybody. Nobody should be 'allowed' to be beaten up.
Logged

Charlie Rose: "If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?"

Fran Lebowitz: "Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisified."

spcasuncoast.org
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2012, 01:38:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
For what it's worth, the law should protect everybody. Nobody should be 'allowed' to be beaten up.
Amen Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 01:39:04 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,975



« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2012, 01:55:56 PM »

For what it's worth, the law should protect everybody. Nobody should be 'allowed' to be beaten up.

Bingo.  Now we just need to convince legislators that everyone deserves equal protection regardless of their voting bloc race, ethnicity, religion, or sexual preference.
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 722



« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2012, 03:08:25 PM »

Further, your second analysis is not legal nor ethical, of course the motivation determines the sentence for example, the different between premeditated murder and accidental homicide, the difference between a  spontaneous bar fight and a strategic attack.

No, those are examples which define the act itself. Was the act premeditated or not?

Logged
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 722



« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2012, 03:10:06 PM »

Nonetheless, the bullying of homosexuals, especially in school, simply has to be stopped at this point.

Are you suggesting that no such preventions are needed for non-homosexuals?
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2012, 03:19:31 PM »

I just don't understand why it's so difficult to teach "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it all."

No one should be bullied whether they are gay, straight, fat, skinny, tall, short, black, white, or purple. I was bullied quite a bit as a child because I was always the tallest kid in class. My teachers did nothing. I remember one teacher telling me "I can't make them like you. You just have to learn how to deal with it." I was 9.

What makes it worse for kids today is that the bullies can "follow" the kid through social media, text messaging, email, etc., and torment them at home.

At least when I was bullied, it stopped when I went home and didn't resume until 9 AM the next morning.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2012, 04:17:53 PM »

Thats the thing. When this argument comes up, and the facts and numbers are presented, the same tired old hyper-emotional reactionary statements are made. These laws do nothing but divide people.

Ever wonder if that is the point?  Divide et impera?
Worked for Caesar......

PP

Hail Caesar! He gave us so much more than a calendar.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2012, 04:21:02 PM »

Thats the thing. When this argument comes up, and the facts and numbers are presented, the same tired old hyper-emotional reactionary statements are made. These laws do nothing but divide people.

Ever wonder if that is the point?  Divide et impera?
Worked for Caesar......

PP

Hail Caesar! He gave us so much more than a calendar.

You're right. He gave us a tasty salad dressing too!
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2012, 04:21:58 PM »

Having a thought police is a wonderful idea, until you realize that the thought police, thought prosecutors, thought juries, thought judges, and thought lawyers are all flawed human beings who really haven't a clue how to read the thoughts of others. The law can only rightly deal with what is seen, and even there it is likely to be mistaken. The testimony of eye witnesses, for example, is notoriously unreliable.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2012, 04:40:35 PM »

The problem with these proposed equality laws is that they are inherently unable to be applied fairly. They usually make blanket statements about protecting people regardless of their race, gender, sexual orientation, or religious belief. However, as I'm sure we all know, it is a part of traditional Christian belief that homosexual behavior is abhorrent, so in upholding one part of the law (protection against discrimination based on sexual orientation), you often violate another (protection of religious belief). I think the answer lies in redefining "discrimination", for the purposes of the law code. Having an opinion that someone isn't living right (e.g., Christianity's stance on homosexuality) shouldn't be seen as discrimination, as long as that's what it is confined to: an opinion (meaning: you don't ever, ever get to harass anyone or physically threaten them). This is, of course, something much, much less than the bullying that typically goes on in schools, which is not about a religious principle but about making fun of the "gay" kid and making his or her life worse. And that's awful. But I think it is just as awful for a state-mandated chill to descend upon young Christians because of the actions of others who just want to pick on their peers. One is a moral stance (and if we're going to start talking motivations, the motivation for it is to bring the person to a way of life that is in conformity with God's love for them), the other is just young people being mean because that's what young people do.

I am glad that this type of legislation did not exist when I was these kids' age. And I got bulled a lot (i.e., to the point where my mother wanted to take me out of the fifth grade because she feared for my safety and the administration weren't really doing anything about it). I'm not going to say it's necessarily good for kids to be bullied, but you have to learn how to deal with the world as it is without dragging everything into the courtroom, and that includes dealing with people who hate you. Especially for Christians in today's world, it is a must.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 04:42:33 PM by dzheremi » Logged

biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,451


fleem
WWW
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2012, 04:43:00 PM »

Thats the thing. When this argument comes up, and the facts and numbers are presented, the same tired old hyper-emotional reactionary statements are made. These laws do nothing but divide people.

Ever wonder if that is the point?  Divide et impera?
Worked for Caesar......

PP

Hail Caesar! He gave us so much more than a calendar.

You're right. He gave us a tasty salad dressing too!

Which also makes awesome chicken wraps. See, the Roman Empire wasn't so bad.   Wink
Logged

Charlie Rose: "If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?"

Fran Lebowitz: "Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisified."

spcasuncoast.org
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2012, 05:10:32 PM »

Thats the thing. When this argument comes up, and the facts and numbers are presented, the same tired old hyper-emotional reactionary statements are made. These laws do nothing but divide people.

Ever wonder if that is the point?  Divide et impera?
Worked for Caesar......

PP

Hail Caesar! He gave us so much more than a calendar.

You're right. He gave us a tasty salad dressing too!

Which also makes awesome chicken wraps. See, the Roman Empire wasn't so bad.   Wink

The Romans may have preferred to use door mice to chicken.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2012, 05:26:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Having an opinion that someone isn't living right (e.g., Christianity's stance on homosexuality) shouldn't be seen as discrimination, as long as that's what it is confined to: an opinion (meaning: you don't ever, ever get to harass anyone or physically threaten them). This is, of course, something much, much less than the bullying that typically goes on in schools, which is not about a religious principle but about making fun of the "gay" kid and making his or her life worse. And that's awful. But I think it is just as awful for a state-mandated chill to descend upon young Christians because of the actions of others who just want to pick on their peers. One is a moral stance (and if we're going to start talking motivations, the motivation for it is to bring the person to a way of life that is in conformity with God's love for them), the other is just young people being mean because that's what young people do.




Brother, the issue is not what opinions kids (and adults) necessarily espouse so much as how these opinions are expressed.  Our Christian kids should be taught the moral issues of homosexuality or promiscuity or any other moral issues in the Church, however nothing gives anyone the right Christian or otherwise to be negative, abusive, hostile, or bullying to anyone, neither did Christ teach us this.  If we teach our kids how to properly behave and to positively express themselves, then they will be fine and such laws and legislation will not even affect them, but if our own kids are bullies, we need to deal with that.  No one has the right to be a bully.  These laws then do not challenge or limit our Christianity, rather they challenge us to be more positive and polite to those we fundamentally disagree with.  No one said Christians can't express their concern or disdain of homosexuality, but again, it comes down to how such sentiments are expressed.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2012, 05:31:10 PM »

Quote
These laws then do not challenge or limit our Christianity, rather they challenge us to be more positive and polite to those we fundamentally disagree with
No they dont. They try to enforce thoughts and promote divisiveness. They do not promote equality. The facts prove that.
PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2012, 10:49:45 AM »

The law maker in this case seems to be referring to cases where people were punished for "bullying" when they weren't actually bullying any one at all, they simply stated they did not believe in homosexuality. There were a couple of cases of such in the news last year. One student was suspended for simply saying, in a private conversion with his friend (ie. not bullying anyone), that he did not believe in it. "Anti-bullying" rules were clearly used in this case to punish someone for their views. This isn't actually about bullying at all, I'm a bit surprised no one seems to have gotten it so far.
Logged
stavros_388
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: +
Posts: 1,259



« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2012, 11:03:13 AM »

Nonetheless, the bullying of homosexuals, especially in school, simply has to be stopped at this point.

Are you suggesting that no such preventions are needed for non-homosexuals?

Of course I am not saying that. Bullying is a problem in schools, period. And here in Canada, preventing bullying of any kind is a huge priority and is discussed at nearly every staff meeting I've attended. But based on statistics, the issue of bullying gays is a particularly bad problem and leads to several suicides or suicide attempts each year. Therefore it is important that this issue is seriously addressed, especially in schools. Now I am speaking generally and not in regards to the article in the OP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bashing#Statistics_and_examples
Logged

"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2012, 12:24:48 PM »

Quote
he issue of bullying gays [...] leads to several suicides or suicide attempts each year.

So does the bullying of fat kids, kids with learning disabilities or other impairments, etc. Not to sound like too much of a Neanderthal, but these tragic instances would probably be prevented in large measure if kids were taught strategies to deal with the bullying that I'm sure is still a part of the teenage experience, rather than laws to keep other kids from hurting their feelings (physical altercations or intimidation are another matter; no one has the right to physically lay their hands on anybody simply because they disagree with or don't like them). I mean...when I lost my mother at age 14 kids at school actually teased me pretty mercilessly for that, if you can believe it (must've been some kind of coping mechanism on their part, as most kids don't know how to deal with losing a parent at that age; I sure didn't). You don't think I wanted to kill myself and/or them pretty much every day? You have to be able to take a lot of horrible treatment just to grow up. I am aware that some people are particularly sensitive, but they're the ones that need to learn these strategies the most, not to be coddled and presented with a version of the world where conflict will never happen. That sets them up for extreme reactions to difficulty. Unfortunately, suicide can be one of them. It's like one of the creators from South Park said about the school shooting massacres of the late 1990s in Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" documentary (paraphrased): If only someone could have convinced the kids who went crazy and killed their classmates that high school doesn't mean anything in the long run, and those people who pick on you then are the real losers, maybe none of this would have happened. That's the message kids need to hear, not "You have the right to be agreed with and treated gingerly because you are gay" or whatever.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 12:25:48 PM by dzheremi » Logged

biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,451


fleem
WWW
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2012, 01:47:25 PM »

Thats the thing. When this argument comes up, and the facts and numbers are presented, the same tired old hyper-emotional reactionary statements are made. These laws do nothing but divide people.

Ever wonder if that is the point?  Divide et impera?
Worked for Caesar......

PP

Hail Caesar! He gave us so much more than a calendar.

You're right. He gave us a tasty salad dressing too!

Which also makes awesome chicken wraps. See, the Roman Empire wasn't so bad.   Wink

The Romans may have preferred to use door mice to chicken.

Millions of cats can't be wrong.  Wink
Logged

Charlie Rose: "If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?"

Fran Lebowitz: "Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisified."

spcasuncoast.org
stavros_388
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: +
Posts: 1,259



« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2012, 02:25:32 PM »

I am aware that some people are particularly sensitive, but they're the ones that need to learn these strategies the most, not to be coddled and presented with a version of the world where conflict will never happen

You don't think homosexuals have had, say, several centuries of learning coping strategies?! I would hardly say they've been "coddled" a whole lot in general, throughout history. They've only recently been able to come out of the shadows they've had to live in for fear of some form of discriminatory abuse or backlash. In many places, they are even today in danger of being killed.

Quote
If only someone could have convinced the kids who went crazy and killed their classmates that high school doesn't mean anything in the long run, and those people who pick on you then are the real losers, maybe none of this would have happened. That's the message kids need to hear.

You don't think they hear this, over and over and over again, in school? My Grade 4/5 students expressed almost unanimous understanding of this concept in a written assignment on bullying (that doesn't mean that every one of them refrained from going out and bullying at recess when the teachers weren't looking, however;).

Quote
"You have the right to be agreed with and treated gingerly because you are gay" or whatever.

Homosexuals don't need to be treated especially gingerly, but in a secular institute (such as a public school) they should be protected from bullying related to their (often innate) sexuality. Students should be exposed to current scientific studies and so forth related to homosexuality as part of their sex education (which I've never had to teach, thank God), in addition to learning about the often dire effects of bullying. Again, as I said above, it's a very fine line. I feel that something needs to be done about this issue, but I do fear that unintended promotion of sexual licentiousness could be a dangerous and unwanted side effect of raising awareness in general, particularly at the middle and high school levels.


« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 02:26:20 PM by stavros_388 » Logged

"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2012, 02:44:14 PM »

You don't think homosexuals have had, say, several centuries of learning coping strategies?! I would hardly say they've been "coddled" a whole lot in general, throughout history. They've only recently been able to come out of the shadows they've had to live in for fear of some form of discriminatory abuse or backlash. In many places, they are even today in danger of being killed.

Yeah, and that's precisely NOT what I am talking about. These anti-bullying laws are for high schools and such. Such institutions haven't even been around for very long, if you're going to take a historical view. I'm not talking about the many places where they are in danger of getting killed (though that could happen at school, unfortunately). I'm talking about teaching kids not to kill themselves because people pick on them for being gay (just as they shouldn't kill themselves for being fat, or a racial/cultural minority, or for any other reason). In my high school there was a "Gay and Lesbian Alliance Club" or whatever for just that reason (which I did attend, because I think it's important for people who get a lot of abuse to have a place to talk about it and learn to deal with it). Nobody brought their lawyers.

Quote
You don't think they hear this, over and over and over again, in school? My Grade 4/5 students expressed almost unanimous understanding of this concept in a written assignment on bullying (that doesn't mean that every one of them refrained from going out and bullying at recess when the teachers weren't looking, however;).


You just answered your own question. Of course they hear it, but they don't apparently don't take it in. Perhaps they hear it so often it loses all meaning. I'm afraid that is possibly the case in these "enforced gay acceptance" situations, wherein a student's gayness is highlighted for the sake of promoting diversity but may actually expose them to more ridicule (depending on the situation). I've seen such things happen myself in other contexts. One year our high school's Cinco de Mayo celebration was interrupted by neo-nazi types with baseball bats, for instance. Nothing brings crazies out of the woodwork like public displays of things they don't like (see: atheists complaining about "In God We Trust" on money, Muslims complaining about crosses on churches, etc).

Quote
Homosexuals don't need to be treated especially gingerly, but in a secular institute (such as a public school) they should be protected from bullying related to their (often innate) sexuality.


So you want to take the "being a teenager" part of out of the teenage years? Good luck. I mean, sure, I would have liked to not have been bullied for being short, for having a dead mom, for having a physical disability, etc. But I don't think the solution is to make it so that nobody can say things I don't like about those parts of my life. They're things I have to deal with regardless of how other people feel about them, so I think it is better for me in order to maintain my sanity and hopefully build my character if I learn to deal with the reality of what they mean and how they affect me, which includes shaping other people's reactions to me in ways I can't control. I guess I'm alone in that idea, though. My grandfather would've called that "not being a baby", but then he is much older than the current multicultural, PC nonsense that passes for education these days.

Quote
Students should be exposed to current scientific studies and so forth related to homosexuality as part of their sex education


I absolutely disagree. In science classes, maybe, if there is a relevant unit in which they may be introduced. But I think making more people who let science dictate their relations (physical or otherwise) with other people is not a good idea. I'm surprised that such an idea would come from an Orthodox Christian.

Quote
in addition to learning about the often dire effects of bullying.


I absolutely agree.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 02:45:00 PM by dzheremi » Logged

HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2012, 03:21:57 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

dzmheremi..

I am sincerely sorry your young adulthood was so tragic and difficult, but honestly, just because you developed thick skin doesn't make the bullying you experienced acceptable.  I am speaking as an educator.  Some folks here may think bullying is just part of being a kid, and to a degree good-humored joking and poking fun at each other is perfectly part of youth, and occasional conflicts and bullying are also part of life, however those of us WHO WORK THERE HAVE TO BE THE ADULT IN THE ROOM.  We teachers are NOT teenagers, we simply know better and we are not going to be governed by teenage minds.  Bullying is wrong, period.  As educators,  our goal is to model against it, advocate against it, and ALWAYS intervene and correct when it goes even a second too far.   By the way, high school is not important? Hardly, this is where young adults develop crucial social skills while defining their identity and place in the world, high school is a lot more significant than we would all really like to admit. 

I understand that you disagree with homosexuality, however as has been pointed out, we live in a pluralistic society and these are secular, public schools.  That being said, at least we the teachers have an obligation and a necessity to care for emotional, intellectual, and psychological growth of our students, of any gender, ethnicity, political creed, or sexual orientation.  I disagree with a lot of my students, but that doesn't give me a monopoly or the right to use  my lectern as a bullypulpit.  Further, we are responsible for our students, and we take this responsibility very serious. 

We are not going to promote the standard of "kids that is just life and you need to get thicker skin" instead we are trying to better our students lives one kid and classroom at a time, because that is job we set out to do.  It is not a status quo think, kids mature and evolve in leaps and bounds every single day of their lives, and we teachers are there to help guide and witness this process.  Part of that, is growing a sense of empathy, respect, and tolerance.  I am not ashamed to have these as the core of the curriculum in my Districts Smiley


Quote
and what of the children jah? And what them got? A broken heart in hand trying to make sense of the world.. If you wish please wish them well.."
Groundation Wish Them Will
stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2012, 03:37:58 PM »

Most of us on this board have been bullied at some time or another in our life. However, the differance for students today, versus 15 or 20+ years ago is technology.

It's not just being teased on the playground for being (fill in the blank with whatever reason a bully can come up with); it is an incessent barrage of negative messages through texts, email, facebook, twitter, Google+, etc.

Bullies now have the technology and abilities to send a message 24 hours a day that "You are a hated and despised human being, and your life is worth nothing."

The other day I watched a YouTube video of a 12 year old who had been teased since 1st grade. He started cutting himself at age 8, and had seriously contemplated suicide.

At age 12.

We all recall the scene from "A Christmas Story" where the main character (Ralphy) finally gets revenge on the school bully and does to him what we all want to do to bullies: beats him up! Any one of us who has ever been bullied cheered for Ralphy as he pounded Farkus into the snow. The movie was good, because the bully was humiliated, but not destroyed, and Ralphy was repentent for the fight.

However, far too few kids have Ralphy's revenge, or have the strength Ralphy had to stand up for himself. Too many take it out on themselves with some even committing suicide.

Anything that can be done to stop a child from taking his/her life should be done. Anything that can be done to prevent bullying should be done.

Fifty years ago, some would say that the attitude towards blacks would never change in this country, and that the fight for civil rights was a lost cause. While things certainly are not perfect, we have come a long way.

Fighting hatred is always an uphill battle, but there is no nobler battle to be won.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
stavros_388
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: +
Posts: 1,259



« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2012, 03:45:02 PM »

I'm talking about teaching kids not to kill themselves because people pick on them for being gay (just as they shouldn't kill themselves for being fat, or a racial/cultural minority, or for any other reason). In my high school there was a "Gay and Lesbian Alliance Club" or whatever for just that reason (which I did attend, because I think it's important for people who get a lot of abuse to have a place to talk about it and learn to deal with it).

I think that's great that you attended! And I'm sincerely sorry to hear about your being bullied as a youth. I was occasionally bullied, too, for being a "pizza face" and when my dad was on welfare).

Quote
...but then he is much older than the current multicultural, PC nonsense that passes for education these days.

The times, they are a changing...
http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/public_acceptance_homosexuality.jpg?w=230&h=263&h=263

Quote
I absolutely disagree. In science classes, maybe, if there is a relevant unit in which they may be introduced. But I think making more people who let science dictate their relations (physical or otherwise) with other people is not a good idea. I'm surprised that such an idea would come from an Orthodox Christian.

Sex Education is where the students learn about sex (which had better include some science!). It's usually part of a Health Class that middle school students take, at least here in Canada. Science need not dictate anyone's relations, but students had better be exposed to its latest findings in the classroom as much as is possible, regardless of what they take from it. Otherwise teachers aren't doing their jobs.

I could say more, but Habte has already said a lot of what I was thinking and expressed it better than I could!



Logged

"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2012, 03:45:31 PM »

There is an anti-bullying device that works 100% of the time. I personally have used it and can speak to its effectiveness:

Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
BoredMeeting
Loving the Life of a Council Member
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox/OCA
Posts: 722



« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2012, 03:46:53 PM »

The law maker in this case seems to be referring to cases where people were punished for "bullying" when they weren't actually bullying any one at all, they simply stated they did not believe in homosexuality. There were a couple of cases of such in the news last year. One student was suspended for simply saying, in a private conversion with his friend (ie. not bullying anyone), that he did not believe in it. "Anti-bullying" rules were clearly used in this case to punish someone for their views. This isn't actually about bullying at all, I'm a bit surprised no one seems to have gotten it so far.

This article helps shed some light on how these laws (and the studies that support them) can be used to stop things other than "bullying." http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/bullying-in-the-name-of-anti-bullying
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2012, 03:56:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Most of us on this board have been bullied at some time or another in our life. However, the differance for students today, versus 15 or 20+ years ago is technology.

It's not just being teased on the playground for being (fill in the blank with whatever reason a bully can come up with); it is an incessent barrage of negative messages through texts, email, facebook, twitter, Google+, etc.

Bullies now have the technology and abilities to send a message 24 hours a day that "You are a hated and despised human being, and your life is worth nothing."


We all recall the scene from "A Christmas Story" where the main character (Ralphy) finally gets revenge on the school bully and does to him what we all want to do to bullies: beats him up! Any one of us who has ever been bullied cheered for Ralphy as he pounded Farkus into the snow. The movie was good, because the bully was humiliated, but not destroyed, and Ralphy was repentent for the fight.done.

Fifty years ago, some would say that the attitude towards blacks would never change in this country, and that the fight for civil rights was a lost cause. While things certainly are not perfect, we have come a long way.



Amen Amen!

Exactly, we have to be extra careful about bullying these days because the technology has a longer attention span then the kids themselves.  Kids may make fun of each other in passing or fleeting moments and later forget all about it, but when they use current technology to do this, the scale and duration is increased almost exponentially.  What was previously a small joke for four or five people that would last a single day can now become the gossip for an entire school for an entire year or longer... 

Just as the Fathers have taught us as adults that we need to become increasingly aware of the CONSEQUENCES of our actions, technology means we have to be that much more on point with what we teach our kids, because they live in a world that even their parents couldn't have possibly imagined where technology exaggerates and expands the reach of every little human whim..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2012, 05:23:31 PM »

Thanks for your concerns and sympathies, Habte and Stavros, but my childhood isn't the issue (and it was pretty good, all told). I only mentioned that stuff because I don't want to come off as though I'm unsympathetic to what bullied kids go through. Yes, technology has evolved quite a bit since when I was that age, but the ways to deal with bullies largely haven't. It's still better to learn how to cultivate your personality and sense of worth than to hope that some fad campaign will save you from life as something other than a pretty, straight, etc. person, or worse yet hope that the law will enforce some sort of false equality (which is the only kind of equality that law can mandate). Steel yourselves to the reality of the world, kids.
Logged

Tags: tennessee  south  gay rights  bullying  law 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.181 seconds with 71 queries.