Topic: The Greatest Difference Between Catholics and Orthodox for me...Hell

[William]

username!, thanks for succinctly summing up most of the things I object to in the modern Catholicism of my family and peers.

I seriously almost cried when we had a school "Mass" earlier this year. Probably an overreaction, but it was pretty messed up.

[Kaste]

ok, people:

There's a lot to address, but I'm very happy with the good posts here.  

First, please remember though, the request to be shown Church Fathers that believe it is possible to get out of hell when one died in mortal sin.  

A couple things Irish Hermit:
First on page one you stated you believe the fact that God struck the soldiers dead in Maccabees demonstrates that their sin was mortal.  

Not necessarily.  

The poor guy who tried to prevent the Ark of the Covenant from falling was also struck dead.  I doubt that was a mortal sin.  So it seems God strikes some people dead even if they didn't commit mortal sin.  

Secondly you stated:

Quote from: elijahmaria on January 23, 2012, 04:58:15 AM
Quote from: Irish Hermit on January 22, 2012, 07:58:41 PM

Kaste, I have an uncomfortable feeling that you don't really want to hear what the Orthodox believe.  


Apparently St. Mark of Ephesus disagrees with you.  Perhaps Kaste would prefer to follow that Church Father.

"But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which – even thought they have repented over them – they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sin, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have said, has not been handed down to us). But some must be cleansed in the very departure from the body, thanks only to fear, as St. Gregory the Dialogist literally shows; while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, either while remaining in the same earthly place, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or – if their sins were more serious and bind them, for a longer duration – they are kept in hell, but not in order to remain forever in fire and torment, but as it were in prison and confinement under guard."

First Homily: “Refutation of the Latin Chapters concerning Purgatorial Fire”
St. Mark of Ephesus

This will not do since St. Mark clearly shows that these souls died in faith and love and so are in a state of venial sin.  So the hell they go to is not the same eternal hell that mortal sinners go to.  St. Mark says this continually.  

Thirdly you have good points about the Catholic Church changing its teachings.  When I told a Catholic cleric this he became mad.  They don't like to have to admit their Church erred, when they haven't been given the green light yet by the Pope to do so.  

K

[Irish Hermit]

First, please remember though, the request to be shown Church Fathers that believe it is possible to get out of hell when one died in mortal sin.

Point Numero Uno.....the very elaborated distinction between mortal sin and venial sin stems from medieval Roman Catholicism.

If you wish to discuss the Church Fathers on this point (and they preceded the existence of the Roman Catholic Church) you would need to search out how/if they made these distinctions and what they meant by them.

[Irish Hermit]

The poor guy who tried to prevent the Ark of the Covenant from falling was also struck dead.  I doubt that was a mortal sin.  So it seems God strikes some people dead even if they didn't commit mortal sin. 

I don't think I'd be interrested in worshipping a deity who strikes people dead for minor sins.

"Yes," says Father O'Flaherty, "undoubtedly God has killed wee Johnny with that bus.  He was seen stealing a pencil in school today.  Let it be a lesson to all the other wicked children."

[Peter J]

First, please remember though, the request to be shown Church Fathers that believe it is possible to get out of hell when one died in mortal sin.

Point Numero Uno.....the very elaborated distinction between mortal sin and venial sin stems from medieval Roman Catholicism.

If you wish to discuss the Church Fathers on this point (and they preceded the existence of the Roman Catholic Church) you would need to search out how/if they made these distinctions and what they meant by them.

Perhaps the request should be to show Church Fathers that believe it is possible to get out of hell.

[Kaste]

The guy died from touching the ark.  Are you denying that, Irish Hermit?

Peter J, no it needs the last part, otherwise people would say yes, but upon further investigation it would show only people with light sins or unfulfilled penance getting out of hell. 

Let it be know to all: Neither Irish Hermit nor anyone else has not shown one Church Father who believe those who died with serious/mortal/really bad sin can get out of hell. 

K

[LBK]

Let it be know to all: Neither Irish Hermit nor anyone else has not shown one Church Father who believe those who died with serious/mortal/really bad sin can get out of hell. 

That's quite a call, Kaste. Last time I checked, murder was a mortal sin. Yet the thief who confessed Christ was assured by The Man Himself that he would be in Paradise that very day.

[Irish Hermit]

The guy died from touching the ark.  Are you denying that, Irish Hermit?

Poor Uzzah!  And he was trying as he thought to do a good thing, to stop the Ark from toppling over.

Would you think he is in the eternal fires for that?  Or was he released when Christ went down to hell after His death?

[Irish Hermit]

Let it be know to all: Neither Irish Hermit nor anyone else has not shown one Church Father who believe those who died with serious/mortal/really bad sin can get out of hell. 

What are you saying?  I have provided the words for the Kneeling Prayers at Pentecost yesterday (in another thread.)

They were written by Saint Basil the Great and truly there are not many “greater” Church Fathers in the East or the West.

See message 50
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,42706.msg702873.html#msg702873

[Peter J]

Peter J, no it needs the last part, otherwise people would say yes, but upon further investigation it would show only people with light sins or unfulfilled penance getting out of hell. 

But don't Catholics and most Protestants believe that everyone who goes to hell is stuck there eternally?

Let it be know to all: Neither Irish Hermit nor anyone else has not? shown one Church Father who believe those who died with serious/mortal/really bad sin can get out of hell. 

K

[Jetavan]

"As for me I say that those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful."

St. Isaac the Syrian

[akimel]

 

First, please remember though, the request to be shown Church Fathers that believe it is possible to get out of hell when one died in mortal sin.  

The two Church Fathers who taught this are St Gregory of Nyssa and St Isaac of Syria.  They were both advocates of apocatastasis.  The hope that all will be saved remains a minority position within the Orthodox Church, but it is a legitimate Orthodox hope.  The two most notable representatives of this hope are Met Kallistos Ware and Met Hilarion Alfeyev. 

Catholics too may also believe that all will be saved, though it is more difficult to conceive this as possible, given Catholic dogma that one's final orientation toward or away from God is definitively and irreversibly established at death.  Modern representatives of this hope are Hans Urs von Balthasar and Karl Rahner. 

[Nuckle]

I do admit one thing that attracts me to Orthodoxy over Catholicism is the fact that Jesus was himself a Jew and without question the Orthodox conception of Hell is so much closer to the Jewish conception of what isn't called Hell but analogous to it. Certainly the whole East West thing makes a difference. Our whole conception of Hell in the West is admittedly very cultural. The imagery comes from Roman mythology and even the name "Hell" comes from Germanic mythology.

[NicholasMyra]

even the name "Hell" comes from Germanic mythology.

The name "hades" came from Greek mythology, yet it was used in the New Testament.

Names are names.

[Kaste]

Akimel said:

The two Church Fathers who taught this are St Gregory of Nyssa and St Isaac of Syria.  They were both advocates of apocatastasis.  The hope that all will be saved remains a minority position within the Orthodox Church, but it is a legitimate Orthodox hope.  The two most notable representatives of this hope are Met Kallistos Ware and Met Hilarion Alfeyev. 

Catholics too may also believe that all will be saved, though it is more difficult to conceive this as possible, given Catholic dogma that one's final orientation toward or away from God is definitively and irreversibly established at death.  Modern representatives of this hope are Hans Urs von Balthasar and Karl Rahner.

Akimel, interesting.  But how do you say Catholics can believe this when Rome dogmatized the Particular Judgment being eternal?  Or perhaps Rome didn't do that...See Ludwig Ott p. 475.  That teaching is a Sent. fidei proxima teaching, not De fide...

Is that how Balthasar and Rahner can still believe it? 

K

[akimel]

But how do you say Catholics can believe this when Rome dogmatized the Particular Judgment being eternal?  Or perhaps Rome didn't do that...See Ludwig Ott p. 475.  That teaching is a Sent. fidei proxima teaching, not De fide...

Is that how Balthasar and Rahner can still believe it? 

Good catch!  My compliments.  You may be right that the irreversibility of the particular judgment has not yet achieved de fide status; but this irreversibility is certainly part of the ordinary teaching of the Catholic Church, as witnessed by the older Catholic Encyclopedia and the modern Catholic Catechism.  As Pope Benedict states in his encyclical Spe salvi, "With death, our life-choice becomes definitive—our life stands before the judge."  As far as I know, neither Rahner nor Balthasar rejected the irreversibility of the fundamental option established at or in the moment of death. 

For an excellent summary of modern Catholic reflection on death, heaven, hell, and the final option, see John Sachs, "Current Eschatology: Universal Salvation and the Problem of Hell." 

[Kaste]

Akimel,

Thanks for providing the good link.  It basically states Rahner and Balthasar simply have hope, based on philosophical reasons, that all will be saved.  But how is this hope "well founded" considering Rome's teaching on mortal sin.  Surely by the standards Rome teaches, many die in a state of mortal sin. 

I personally agree with the hope concept, but do not see how a Catholic can justify this with the Church's teachings on mortal sin. 

Also at the end of Augustine's City of God, he tells of the "tender hearted ones" who believed this way.  But I would be very interested to see examples of Christians who believed this way between Augustine and Pius IX. 

K

[Schultz]

even the name "Hell" comes from Germanic mythology.

The name "hades" came from Greek mythology, yet it was used in the New Testament.

Names are names.

Also, Hel was not necessarily a place of eternal torment, simply the abode of the dead.  Indeed, it has the same meaning as the Greek Hades, "hidden, unseen."

[Kaste]

True Schultz,

Catholics seem to mix up Gehenna with Sheol.  The former being the hell of fire reserved for eternal torment after the Last Judgment, the latter the abode of the dead sinners before Last Judgment. 

eternal Gehenna is contrasted with eternal Heaven
temporary Sheol is contrasted with temporary Paradise (before Last Judgment). 

This seems to be what Scriptures say. 
1)  It seems to me Orthodox are more likely to draw the distinction.  Am I right, is this Orthodox? 

Getting back to Catholic theologian Balthasar, here is a typical conservative loyal to the T Roman Catholic view of him:
"Alyssa Pitstick claims that this thesis directly contradicts the limpid and always consistent teaching of the Magisterium on the mystery of Holy Saturday, which perhaps finds its clearest and most univocal formulation in this sentence from the recently promulgated Catechism of the Catholic Church: “Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.”

2) What is the Orthodox view on Christ's descent into Hell/Hades/Sheol: was it to free the damned and destroy hell, or just to free the just who had gone before Him? 

K

[akimel]

2) What is the Orthodox view on Christ's descent into Hell/Hades/Sheol: was it to free the damned and destroy hell, or just to free the just who had gone before Him? 

You may find this article by Met Hilarion helpful: Christ the Conqueror of Hell.

[akimel]

Also at the end of Augustine's City of God, he tells of the "tender hearted ones" who believed this way.  But I would be very interested to see examples of Christians who believed this way between Augustine and Pius

See:

John Sachs, Apocatastasis in Patristic Theology

Hilarion Alfeyev, St Isaac the Syrian, a theologian of love and mercy

[Kaste]

2) What is the Orthodox view on Christ's descent into Hell/Hades/Sheol: was it to free the damned and destroy hell, or just to free the just who had gone before Him? 

You may find this article by Met Hilarion helpful: Christ the Conqueror of Hell.

Excellent find Akimel.  Moderator, please give Akimel 2 more stars. 

Met. Hilarion's piece is very agreeable except for his footnote #60.  I have read ‘Concerning Infants Who Have Died Prematurely’ treatise and it does seem that the early church father says the unbaptized infant is in hell, just not suffering the pains of hell.  Also Hilarion puts that St. Gregory Palamas wrote that treatise, but actually it was St. Gregory of Nyssa.  Unless Palamas wrote another? 

K

[NicholasMyra]

What is the Orthodox view on Christ's descent into Hell/Hades/Sheol: was it to free the damned and destroy hell, or just to free the just who had gone before Him? 

To free all the dead from the first death and destroy Sheol.

[akimel]

Met. Hilarion's piece is very agreeable except for his footnote #60.  I have read ‘Concerning Infants Who Have Died Prematurely’ treatise and it does seem that the early church father says the unbaptized infant is in hell, just not suffering the pains of hell.  Also Hilarion puts that St. Gregory Palamas wrote that treatise, but actually it was St. Gregory of Nyssa.  Unless Palamas wrote another? 

Hmmm, I have read St Gregory's tract on infants (many years ago) and I do not recall any intimation that unbaptized infants go to hell, though I do recall thinking it was an unsatisfactory treatment of the problem. Baptism, e.g., does not seem to feature at all in St Gregory's reflections (see David Salomon's introduction to the treatise:  http://goo.gl/jKpSp; also see the brief discussion of St Gregory in the Catholic document on infant salvation: http://goo.gl/zajqC).  Gregory's problem seems to be, how can infants participate in the joys of heaven when they are incapable of virtue? 

In any case, you are quite correct that the treatise was written by St Gregory of Nyssa, not St Gregory Palamas.   I can't imagine Met Hilarion making that mistake, so I guess it was the translator or editor.       

[WPM]

hello,

Several references to the "places that are below us" Hades,Gehenna,and Sheol are from Bible Scriptures...Not very fun places to be and we don't want to go there ... That is we should look to the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to deliver us "out of the wretched places in the nethermost bowels of earth"

[JamesR]

I always thought it was original sin