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Author Topic: Anglicans have new US home in Catholic church  (Read 2754 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2012, 06:43:08 PM »

Anyone even mildly familiar with the history of relations between Catholic-minded Anglicans and Orthodoxy over the last few centuries can see how absurd Tikhon29605's statements are. Orthodoxy is a natural choice for these types of Anglicans (and there are, indeed, many different types) who long for communion with the Apostolic Church. I'm reminded of something a one-time Anglican (now Orthodox) priest shared with some of his brethren:

I had learned from Archbishop Michael Ramsey that the Anglican Communion was “provisional” by nature. I had heard the 102nd Archbishop of Canterbury, Robert Runcie, say that “our vocation as Anglicans was to put ourselves out of business.” We were a part seeking to be united with the whole.

Orthodoxy is not strange and foreign reading for classical Anglicans. Father Carl Bell (now Father Anthony Bell, an Orthodox priest), again writing in the options forum in The Evangelical Catholic, makes a strong case showing that the “Anglican way” and the “Orthodox way” are one and the same with the appeal to Sacred Scripture and Holy Tradition. Orthodoxy is the best of classical Anglicanism preserved in our day, with an unquestioned link to the Apostolic Church.

Modern Orthodox theologians had become an anchor for so many orthodox Anglicans, and I was no exception. Lossky, Schmemann, Meyendorff and Hopko are only a few of the Orthodox theologians quoted often in traditionalist Episcopalian circles. I cannot count the number of times I have heard traditionalists repeat how much they felt at home reading Orthodox theologians but they could never become Orthodox because the Byzantine Rite was just too exotic!

I am suggesting matters which we, as English Churchmen, must examine in the light of our experience of Eastern Orthodoxy, with a view to the conversion of ourselves, of our country, and of the world. I believe we are on an organic path for the fulfilment of our Church’s vocation.


Anglican Options, Rome or Orthodoxy?
By Fr. Chad Hatfield

  Page number please. 
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« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2012, 07:23:50 PM »

how long will it take before normal Catholic priests will be allowed to marry before ordination now? I think this is a step in that direction.

I do not think that it will have happen nor that any Anglican Rite group be allowed to have future priests who are married.  Once the generation of clerics that joined retires or passes away, any replacements will not be permitted to be married.  I also have my doubts about how long any Anglican rite will last in the middle to distant future.

Ebor
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« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2012, 11:31:41 PM »

Anyone even mildly familiar with the history of relations between Catholic-minded Anglicans and Orthodoxy over the last few centuries can see how absurd Tikhon29605's statements are. Orthodoxy is a natural choice for these types of Anglicans (and there are, indeed, many different types) who long for communion with the Apostolic Church. I'm reminded of something a one-time Anglican (now Orthodox) priest shared with some of his brethren:

I had learned from Archbishop Michael Ramsey that the Anglican Communion was “provisional” by nature. I had heard the 102nd Archbishop of Canterbury, Robert Runcie, say that “our vocation as Anglicans was to put ourselves out of business.” We were a part seeking to be united with the whole.

Orthodoxy is not strange and foreign reading for classical Anglicans. Father Carl Bell (now Father Anthony Bell, an Orthodox priest), again writing in the options forum in The Evangelical Catholic, makes a strong case showing that the “Anglican way” and the “Orthodox way” are one and the same with the appeal to Sacred Scripture and Holy Tradition. Orthodoxy is the best of classical Anglicanism preserved in our day, with an unquestioned link to the Apostolic Church.

Modern Orthodox theologians had become an anchor for so many orthodox Anglicans, and I was no exception. Lossky, Schmemann, Meyendorff and Hopko are only a few of the Orthodox theologians quoted often in traditionalist Episcopalian circles. I cannot count the number of times I have heard traditionalists repeat how much they felt at home reading Orthodox theologians but they could never become Orthodox because the Byzantine Rite was just too exotic!

I am suggesting matters which we, as English Churchmen, must examine in the light of our experience of Eastern Orthodoxy, with a view to the conversion of ourselves, of our country, and of the world. I believe we are on an organic path for the fulfilment of our Church’s vocation.


Anglican Options, Rome or Orthodoxy?
By Fr. Chad Hatfield

  Page number please. 

My apologies! It's actually not from a book, but an article, which can be read in full here: http://www.westernorthodox.com/options.html
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« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2012, 11:37:46 PM »

As far as Western Orthodoxy being on the "fringes" of the North American Orthodox experience, I have no idea what that even looks like. What a vague way to put it. Does it mean we don't go to Archdiocesan events? No. Does it mean we don't know other Orthodox people in our area? No. There are 5 Orthodox Churches in my city, and the Pan-Orthodox Council has more members from our small WR parish than any of the other other ones. I know the situation is similar in Denver, where there are 2 thriving WR parishes. This idea of WRO feeling "isolated" or being on the "fringes" is entirely fanciful.
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« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2012, 10:58:30 AM »

Anglican Ordinariate set up by the RCC = Uniate Church set up by the RCC.

Exactly.  Keeping your traditions for subservience to the pope is hardly a good deal. I wonder how long it will be before the Anglican ordinate starts to be pressured, if not outright forced, to adopt "latinizing" influences much in the same way the Eastern Catholics in Ukraine were.

Probably not too long

Sigh

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« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2012, 11:09:05 AM »

I agree with you.  I've never found the Byzantine Rite "exotic" either.

Well, that's you and your personal tastes.

Quote
It isn't any more "exotic" than the New Testament.  One wonders weather the Bible itself might be to "exotic" for these Anglicans since it was written in the East, in Eastern languages and is foreign to English culture.

The New Testament is not "exotic" because it has been part of Christianity since the canon was established and one of the widest translations is the KJV which came from the work of Anglican Christians.  How is it "foreign" to people who have had it as part of their religion and culture for more than 1500 years? (from the sending of St Augustine of Canterbury to the Kentish King)

I'm sorry, I guess I'm rather cranky at the moment but to this Anglican it *does* feel rather like looked at as a target to be bagged.

And as for Dr. Pelikan, I don't know.  Maybe he didn't have any choice if Byzantine Rite EO was the 'only game in town'.  or maybe he liked it or there could have been some other reason.  But the suggestion that because some people do not find that rite as worshipful a thing as others because they aren't "humble" is irritating as well as made without any personal knowledge of those other human beings.

Sigh

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« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2012, 12:25:50 PM »

This whole thing seems to me, that Rome sees the same thing that everybody else sees. Anglicanism is collapsing in on itself. I dont see the traditional Anglican Communion lasting another century.

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« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2012, 12:49:32 PM »

I don't know about "everybody".  RC and EO may see it.. and this can lead to some unfortunate inferring of "More for my team" vibes. 

I am feeling an impulse to do an Monty Python imitation if that were possible in typing

"I don't want to get on the cart." 
"I'm not dead yet!"

Yes, there are problems.  But there is also still some Good. 

Ebor   
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« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2012, 01:19:15 PM »

I don't know about "everybody".  RC and EO may see it.. and this can lead to some unfortunate inferring of "More for my team" vibes. 

I am feeling an impulse to do an Monty Python imitation if that were possible in typing

"I don't want to get on the cart." 
"I'm not dead yet!"

Yes, there are problems.  But there is also still some Good. 

Ebor   

The issue folks are having is that there are some very godly folks in the Anglican and Episcopal churches, but they are being left in the dust. Spiritual pluralism is killing this Church. Its not just the EO and the RC, look at the demographics from the Anglican Church's own studies. The decline is quite steady. People are leaving in droves
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« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2012, 03:24:14 PM »

I don't know about "everybody".  RC and EO may see it.. and this can lead to some unfortunate inferring of "More for my team" vibes. 

I am feeling an impulse to do an Monty Python imitation if that were possible in typing

"I don't want to get on the cart." 
"I'm not dead yet!"

Yes, there are problems.  But there is also still some Good. 

Ebor   

The issue folks are having is that there are some very godly folks in the Anglican and Episcopal churches, but they are being left in the dust. Spiritual pluralism is killing this Church. Its not just the EO and the RC, look at the demographics from the Anglican Church's own studies. The decline is quite steady. People are leaving in droves

I wouldn't put the nail in the Anglican coffin just yet. It is true that there are many Roman-sympathetic Anglo-catholics that are headed elsewhere, but to the Low Church Anglicans there is no stigma in starting a different "Anglican" denomination, especially if that denomination is in communion with other Anglican churches in the Communion (Canterbury not needing be the focus point of Communion to their ecclesiology). For Anglo-catholics with a more Orthodox understanding of ecclesiology (and there are a few) there's no need to leave so long as there are even a few orthodox Bishops in the Communion (as our own St Maximus the Confessor did not completely break with the Church when it seemed almost devoured by the monothelite heresy), regardless of Canterbury's orthodoxy.

Canada, the US, and England may have near completely fallen to pluralism, but the African and Asian churches are still going strong, and not adverse to sending missionaries and giving aid (and ecclesiastical shelter) to those Anglicans here who have had enough of tEC's shenanigans. This may keep Western Hemisphere Anglicanism limping along for quite some time, or maybe even completely revitalize it, once the secularists are done breaking their toy.
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« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2012, 06:07:45 PM »

I don't know about "everybody".  RC and EO may see it.. and this can lead to some unfortunate inferring of "More for my team" vibes. 

I am feeling an impulse to do an Monty Python imitation if that were possible in typing

"I don't want to get on the cart." 
"I'm not dead yet!"

Yes, there are problems.  But there is also still some Good. 

Ebor   

The issue folks are having is that there are some very godly folks in the Anglican and Episcopal churches, but they are being left in the dust. Spiritual pluralism is killing this Church. Its not just the EO and the RC, look at the demographics from the Anglican Church's own studies. The decline is quite steady. People are leaving in droves

Well at least your post is different from some that take the tack of "there's nothing good in the Anglicans"  so thank you for that.  I know about the demographics, too.   

Ebor the Old Grey Donkey
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« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2012, 07:54:36 PM »


Well at least your post is different from some that take the tack of "there's nothing good in the Anglicans"  so thank you for that.  I know about the demographics, too.    

Ebor the Old Grey Donkey
I really admire the depth and beauty of the Anglican Use High Mass used within the RC Church. This particular parish was set up for former Anglican and Episcopalian converts to the RC Church in San Antonio , Texas:

http://www.atonementonline.com/index.php#thumb

This is a video of the Anglican Use Mass in this particular church mentioned above (the quality of the video is not that great):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q251EywW__M
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« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2012, 07:57:31 PM »


Well at least your post is different from some that take the tack of "there's nothing good in the Anglicans"  so thank you for that.  I know about the demographics, too.    

Ebor the Old Grey Donkey
I really admire the depth and beauty of the Anglican Use High Mass within the RC Church. This particular parish was set up for former Anglican and Episcopalian converts to the RC Church in San Antonio , Texas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q251EywW__M

This is a video of the Anglican Use Mass in this particular church (the quality of the video is not that great):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q251EywW__M

I've been there a few times. My impression was a beautiful liturgy with a seemingly pious parish.
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« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2012, 10:17:25 PM »


Well at least your post is different from some that take the tack of "there's nothing good in the Anglicans"  so thank you for that.  I know about the demographics, too.    

Ebor the Old Grey Donkey
I really admire the depth and beauty of the Anglican Use High Mass used within the RC Church. This particular parish was set up for former Anglican and Episcopalian converts to the RC Church in San Antonio , Texas:

http://www.atonementonline.com/index.php#thumb

This is a video of the Anglican Use Mass in this particular church mentioned above (the quality of the video is not that great):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q251EywW__M

I've only had a chance to hear the first bit.  It surely is familiar alright.  I've sung those hymns and service music arrangements many, many times over the years.  I'll tell you one difference from RC services that I've been to that hits me right away.  The parish is singing along too with vigor and volume.  Unlike say the time we went to an niece's baptism at a large RC parish on a regular Sunday morning and as my family started singing the listed first song we realized that almost no one else around us was singing.   The song leaders were of course and the various instrumentalist were playing. But not the congregation.   

It sounds like they have a good choir too, and the clergy is willing to sing/chant as well. 

Good things from the Anglicans...............  (not "baggage")

Ebor
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« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2012, 11:32:29 PM »

Ebor, FWIW, I do indeed see a lot that is good in the Anglican heritage. I possibly would have never become Orthodox had I not been Anglican first, and I definitely still would not still be a Christian had I not been introduced in my childhood to a specific Anglican who appears in the next sentence. I still enjoy reading Hooker and C.S. Lewis, and I have found that great tradition of Anglican fudge to be the best approach to the Old/New Calendar discussions within Orthodoxy. If I ever seem grumpy over the latest news from tEC it is because I know the good in Anglicanism and am saddened by the harm that has been done within the past decade (I do, of course, wish those who have stayed all the best, and my prayers are with the Diocese of South Carolina during their current troubles with the lowerarchy).

That said, I ask you to not take too much offense at the turns the conversation has taken in this thread. You yourself said you feel like a target to be "bagged", which I think is what Tikhon(sequence of numbers) wishes to avoid by not having a Western Rite (indeed, his association of Western Rite with a certain "U" word would indicate this). Too, there is a great amount of suspicion toward anything that has had anything to do with the Latin church since the schism, and then the BCP is not only a post-schism Latin Rite, but a Protestant one to boot! I certainly can't say that Cranmer's Rite is superior in any way to St John Chrysostom's, save that I wish Cranmer were still around to do a proper translation of the Byzantine Liturgy. I also cannot say that, from an Orthodox perspective, there is nothing problematic about the Book of Common Prayer as it exists now. There are too many Low Church Protestant phrasings that emphasize the idea of prayer to the Father in the name of Jesus, too few prayers that include the Holy Spirit in His proper place, to suit Orthodox theology.

I am also too new to Orthodoxy myself to speak of the suitability of the Rite of St Tikhon, save to say that I trust our bishops in their decision to allow it, and the mind of the Church to decide as to it's acceptability in the long term. I personally believe that Orthodoxy can "baptize" anything, and if it can baptize things from pagan sources, all the more reason it should chrismate those things from sources that aren't all that far off from Orthodoxy to begin with (unless that makes you feel targeted, in which case I say bad, bad rite. Oh, dear, fudge is a hard habit to quit).
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« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2012, 12:07:39 AM »

Good thoughts, FormerReformer.

Just for clarity sake, there are many different BCP's out there, and the one upon which some of the Tikhonian Mass is based was part of a long stream AWAY from Cranmer's original work.  Lazy thinkers like Tikhon987654321 don't bother to learn the differences and don't look beyond "Anglican" or "BCP" and just lump it all together as "Protestant" or "Cranmerian" which says more about them than anything else Smiley

Presently, within canonical Orthodoxy, there are no rites based upon the BCP. Within the Antiochian Patriarchate, the two approved liturgies are the pure Gregorian and the Gregorian with interpolations from the American Missal, which drew some texts from the Scottish Prayer Books.

Splitting hairs for some perhaps, but these are important distinctions to make! Smiley
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« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2012, 12:16:09 AM »

No, your last paragraph does not make me feel targeted.  In response to it, though, I will (trying to be as restrained and polite as possible) write that I've read plenty of people/postings/writings that have the angle that "west baaaad, east Good", that there is no place at all for anything Anglican except for people.   I've seen enough from both EO and RC that indicate that they don't want any kind of Western/Anglican rite at all.  There are EO who have said that the only acceptable to God (real?) worship is Byz. Rite.  There are RC who make dislike our liturgies, too.  

Another thing is statements that it's "pride" or "ego" or "phyletism" or "baggage" on their part if they have trouble with the Byzantine Rite or particular practices. They don't help either.  

And then there's a general aura of "the Anglicans are fair game" when something shows up in the news.  

Ebor
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« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2012, 09:37:00 AM »



The issue folks are having is that there are some very godly folks in the Anglican and Episcopal churches, but they are being left in the dust. Spiritual pluralism is killing this Church. Its not just the EO and the RC, look at the demographics from the Anglican Church's own studies. The decline is quite steady. People are leaving in droves

This is true only if you limit your analysis to the Northern hemisphere.  Globally, the Anglican churches have almost doubled in population since 1970.

http://pewforum.org/Christian/Global-Anglicanism-at-a-Crossroads.aspx

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« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2012, 10:20:15 AM »

Good thoughts, FormerReformer.

Just for clarity sake, there are many different BCP's out there, and the one upon which some of the Tikhonian Mass is based was part of a long stream AWAY from Cranmer's original work.  Lazy thinkers like Tikhon987654321 don't bother to learn the differences and don't look beyond "Anglican" or "BCP" and just lump it all together as "Protestant" or "Cranmerian" which says more about them than anything else Smiley

Presently, within canonical Orthodoxy, there are no rites based upon the BCP. Within the Antiochian Patriarchate, the two approved liturgies are the pure Gregorian and the Gregorian with interpolations from the American Missal, which drew some texts from the Scottish Prayer Books.

Splitting hairs for some perhaps, but these are important distinctions to make! Smiley
I remember first trying to compare the DL of St. Tikhon and the BCP, and having great difficulty in doing so.
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« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2012, 10:40:14 AM »

Good thoughts, FormerReformer.

Just for clarity sake, there are many different BCP's out there, and the one upon which some of the Tikhonian Mass is based was part of a long stream AWAY from Cranmer's original work.  Lazy thinkers like Tikhon987654321 don't bother to learn the differences and don't look beyond "Anglican" or "BCP" and just lump it all together as "Protestant" or "Cranmerian" which says more about them than anything else Smiley

Presently, within canonical Orthodoxy, there are no rites based upon the BCP. Within the Antiochian Patriarchate, the two approved liturgies are the pure Gregorian and the Gregorian with interpolations from the American Missal, which drew some texts from the Scottish Prayer Books.

Splitting hairs for some perhaps, but these are important distinctions to make! Smiley
Well, I'll have to make sure to tell my priest on Sunday that our Liturgy of St. Tikhon isn't Orthodox, nor based on the BCP..im sure he'll be shocked....


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« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2012, 11:16:12 AM »

What I meant is that we should not poach on the Anglicans right now.  They are having a lot of problems worldwide.  Having Orthodox eager to poach on them for new members reminds me of piranahs in the Amazon going after weak and wounded thrashing animals in the water.  I think it would be far better to leave them alone.

Kind of similar to the mentality a lot of us Orthodox had back during the 1990s with the fall of the Iron Curtain and the sudden rush of American Evangelicals into Eastern Europe who wanted to poach off the Orthodox.  We resented them taking advantage of our people in their weakness.

I think we should extend the same courtesy to the Anglicans.
I wasn't aware that Orthodox were planning to flood into Anglican areas in order to do this 'poaching!'

Tell us more about these nefarious plans.
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« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2012, 11:21:44 AM »

What I meant is that we should not poach on the Anglicans right now.  They are having a lot of problems worldwide.  Having Orthodox eager to poach on them for new members reminds me of piranahs in the Amazon going after weak and wounded thrashing animals in the water.  I think it would be far better to leave them alone.

Kind of similar to the mentality a lot of us Orthodox had back during the 1990s with the fall of the Iron Curtain and the sudden rush of American Evangelicals into Eastern Europe who wanted to poach off the Orthodox.  We resented them taking advantage of our people in their weakness.

I think we should extend the same courtesy to the Anglicans.
I wasn't aware that Orthodox were planning to flood into Anglican areas in order to do this 'poaching!'

Tell us more about these nefarious plans.
"Shhhhhhh, be vewy vewy kwiet.....I'm hunting Angwicans....."



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« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2012, 11:31:03 AM »

What I meant is that we should not poach on the Anglicans right now.  They are having a lot of problems worldwide.  Having Orthodox eager to poach on them for new members reminds me of piranahs in the Amazon going after weak and wounded thrashing animals in the water.  I think it would be far better to leave them alone.

Kind of similar to the mentality a lot of us Orthodox had back during the 1990s with the fall of the Iron Curtain and the sudden rush of American Evangelicals into Eastern Europe who wanted to poach off the Orthodox.  We resented them taking advantage of our people in their weakness.

I think we should extend the same courtesy to the Anglicans.
I wasn't aware that Orthodox were planning to flood into Anglican areas in order to do this 'poaching!'

Tell us more about these nefarious plans.
"Shhhhhhh, be vewy vewy kwiet.....I'm hunting Angwicans....."



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« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2012, 12:16:45 PM »

 Smiley  Cute.

I think that the Elmer in "What's Opera, Doc?" would be appropriate.. all that music and dramatic settings and the "speaw and magic hewmet"...

As long as it's stun rounds or tranquillizer darts in that weapon he's got...

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« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2012, 12:26:15 PM »

Smiley  Cute.

I think that the Elmer in "What's Opera, Doc?" would be appropriate.. all that music and dramatic settings and the "speaw and magic hewmet"...

As long as it's stun rounds or tranquillizer darts in that weapon he's got...


Magic helmet? MAGIC HELMET!!!!!!!!

LOL loved that one Smiley



Now, in response to what someone said above, there is a liturgy based on the BCP which I  attend every week. His info was incorrect as the liturgy of St. Tikhon is Orthodox and orthodox.

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« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2012, 12:32:07 PM »

Good thoughts, FormerReformer.

Just for clarity sake, there are many different BCP's out there, and the one upon which some of the Tikhonian Mass is based was part of a long stream AWAY from Cranmer's original work.  Lazy thinkers like Tikhon987654321 don't bother to learn the differences and don't look beyond "Anglican" or "BCP" and just lump it all together as "Protestant" or "Cranmerian" which says more about them than anything else Smiley

Presently, within canonical Orthodoxy, there are no rites based upon the BCP. Within the Antiochian Patriarchate, the two approved liturgies are the pure Gregorian and the Gregorian with interpolations from the American Missal, which drew some texts from the Scottish Prayer Books.

Splitting hairs for some perhaps, but these are important distinctions to make! Smiley
Well, I'll have to make sure to tell my priest on Sunday that our Liturgy of St. Tikhon isn't Orthodox, nor based on the BCP..im sure he'll be shocked....


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Isn't Orthodox?? I don't follow...I worship with the Rite of St. Tikhon, it's Orthodox on all accounts.
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« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2012, 12:34:46 PM »

Smiley  Cute.

I think that the Elmer in "What's Opera, Doc?" would be appropriate.. all that music and dramatic settings and the "speaw and magic hewmet"...

As long as it's stun rounds or tranquillizer darts in that weapon he's got...


Magic helmet? MAGIC HELMET!!!!!!!!

LOL loved that one Smiley



Now, in response to what someone said above, there is a liturgy based on the BCP which I  attend every week. His info was incorrect as the liturgy of St. Tikhon is Orthodox and orthodox.

PP

I think it would help to re-read what I wrote. I'm in full support of the Rite of St Tikhon. Just offering some clarifications on misperceptions Smiley
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« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2012, 12:47:55 PM »

Quote
Presently, within canonical Orthodoxy, there are no rites based upon the BCP. Within the Antiochian Patriarchate, the two approved liturgies are the pure Gregorian and the Gregorian with interpolations from the American Missal, which drew some texts from the Scottish Prayer Books
I was responding to that. The Rite of St. Tikhon was based off of the 1928 BCP and reviews from the 19th century one.
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« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2012, 12:48:09 PM »

Smiley  Cute.

I think that the Elmer in "What's Opera, Doc?" would be appropriate.. all that music and dramatic settings and the "speaw and magic hewmet"...

As long as it's stun rounds or tranquillizer darts in that weapon he's got...


Magic helmet? MAGIC HELMET!!!!!!!!

~~Yes, Magic heeeelll-met.  And I'ww give you a sam-pwe~~"

I suppose that the smog invocation could be incense.


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« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2012, 12:54:51 PM »

Smiley  Cute.

I think that the Elmer in "What's Opera, Doc?" would be appropriate.. all that music and dramatic settings and the "speaw and magic hewmet"...

As long as it's stun rounds or tranquillizer darts in that weapon he's got...


Magic helmet? MAGIC HELMET!!!!!!!!

~~Yes, Magic heeeelll-met.  And I'ww give you a sam-pwe~~"

I suppose that the smog invocation could be incense.



Man, bugs dressed as a valkyrie...classic Smiley
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« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2012, 01:04:50 PM »

A skinny valkyrie... with a very zaftig horse

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« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2012, 01:13:50 PM »

Quote
Presently, within canonical Orthodoxy, there are no rites based upon the BCP. Within the Antiochian Patriarchate, the two approved liturgies are the pure Gregorian and the Gregorian with interpolations from the American Missal, which drew some texts from the Scottish Prayer Books
I was responding to that. The Rite of St. Tikhon was based off of the 1928 BCP and reviews from the 19th century one.

This was me splitting hairs Smiley

The elements that are drawn from the Scottish/American Prayer Book tradition (like we find the 1892 & 1928 American Prayer Books) were interpolated into the Gregorian Rite, in publications like the Anglican Missal and the American Missal. These were the basis for the Rite of St. Tikhon. When compared side-by-side, this is a bit easier to see.

Within the Vicariate today, these two Masses are carried out in a virtually identical manner, even down to the private prayers of the priest and the rubrics.

I feel like these distinctions are imporant because people often critizie the Rite as the "Prayer Book with a Byzantine epiklesis" which is quite far from the truth, and just sloppy.

So, yes, certain portions of the Rite of St. Tikhon are drawn from the 1928 Prayer Book, but it's much, much more than that.
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« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2012, 01:33:56 PM »

Quote
Presently, within canonical Orthodoxy, there are no rites based upon the BCP. Within the Antiochian Patriarchate, the two approved liturgies are the pure Gregorian and the Gregorian with interpolations from the American Missal, which drew some texts from the Scottish Prayer Books
I was responding to that. The Rite of St. Tikhon was based off of the 1928 BCP and reviews from the 19th century one.

This was me splitting hairs Smiley

The elements that are drawn from the Scottish/American Prayer Book tradition (like we find the 1892 & 1928 American Prayer Books) were interpolated into the Gregorian Rite, in publications like the Anglican Missal and the American Missal. These were the basis for the Rite of St. Tikhon. When compared side-by-side, this is a bit easier to see.

Within the Vicariate today, these two Masses are carried out in a virtually identical manner, even down to the private prayers of the priest and the rubrics.

I feel like these distinctions are imporant because people often critizie the Rite as the "Prayer Book with a Byzantine epiklesis" which is quite far from the truth, and just sloppy.

So, yes, certain portions of the Rite of St. Tikhon are drawn from the 1928 Prayer Book, but it's much, much more than that.
Thank you for clarifying. I was a mite bit confused by it....much clearer now Smiley

PP
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« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2012, 01:50:41 PM »

Quote
Presently, within canonical Orthodoxy, there are no rites based upon the BCP. Within the Antiochian Patriarchate, the two approved liturgies are the pure Gregorian and the Gregorian with interpolations from the American Missal, which drew some texts from the Scottish Prayer Books
I was responding to that. The Rite of St. Tikhon was based off of the 1928 BCP and reviews from the 19th century one.

This was me splitting hairs Smiley

The elements that are drawn from the Scottish/American Prayer Book tradition (like we find the 1892 & 1928 American Prayer Books) were interpolated into the Gregorian Rite, in publications like the Anglican Missal and the American Missal. These were the basis for the Rite of St. Tikhon. When compared side-by-side, this is a bit easier to see.

Within the Vicariate today, these two Masses are carried out in a virtually identical manner, even down to the private prayers of the priest and the rubrics.

I feel like these distinctions are imporant because people often critizie the Rite as the "Prayer Book with a Byzantine epiklesis" which is quite far from the truth, and just sloppy.

So, yes, certain portions of the Rite of St. Tikhon are drawn from the 1928 Prayer Book, but it's much, much more than that.

What I find funny is that from the Rite of St Tikhon I've seen, the epiklesis is virtually unchanged from the 1928 prayer book.

A knowledge of history helps here- after the Russians reviewed the 1892 American prayer book and recommended changes, the Episcopalians incorporated many of those changes into the 1928 Prayer Book- the CofE unfortunately never got their revised prayer book past parliament.
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« Reply #79 on: January 07, 2012, 04:11:39 AM »

Somewhat off topic, yet in the same stream is a conversation with an Anglican Priest I had recently.  He told me that many of the small Anglican "continuing churches" are pastored by men without Seminary degrees, some of whom have had limited experience with mainstream Episcopalian/Anglican Churches in their formative years.  This is important because I think that some of us project our images of Conservative and/or High Church Episcopalian unto these new generation Anglicans.  Many of their parishes are actually struggling with Contemporary vs. Traditional worship, and the Pittsburgh Diocese advocates the ordination of women.

On the one hand, we probably should not go too far out of our way to accomodate these small, disparate groups as if they are in the same place as High Church Anglicanism/Episcopalianism of a generation or two ago.  In other words, many of them are not solid on basic teachings of male priesthood, sacraments, liturgical music, prayer from liturgical western sources (i.e. monastic diurnal), etc.  Things have changed radically even from the 1980's, when you could find many clergy and laity of the Anglican tradition who grew up in, sang, prayed, communed and lived experiencing many weddings, funerals, ordinations, etc. in additions to weekly masses. 

On the other hand, if individuals or groups come to us, they should be welcomed with open arms.  But for those of us who are a little older, the days of the Oxford Movment types are largely over.  Potential convert Priests from these small, disparate groups probably are composed of many good men, but we should not fast track them into ordination without their going to Orthodox Seminary, or being closely mentored by a priest while studying in some sort of Correspondence program.
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« Reply #80 on: January 07, 2012, 10:19:13 AM »

Well said, and very true.
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