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Author Topic: Whence the new bishop for Diocese of Toledo?  (Read 2666 times) Average Rating: 0
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Eugenio
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« on: April 18, 2011, 01:20:56 AM »

Has anyone in the Antiochian Archdiocese heard when a new bishop will be enthroned for the Diocese of Toledo?

Note - I don't want this to devolve into a debate over the removal of the previous bishop. What's done is over, in my opinion. This question is about the future of the diocese - when and how will a new bishop be chosen for the Diocese of Toledo and the Midwest, which covers Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Ohio, and Wisconsin.

Has anyone seen or heard news of this?
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2011, 07:10:28 PM »

I haven't heard any news per se, but Archimandrite John (Abdallah) seems to have become more prominent in archdiocesan publications over the last year, so perhaps he's being lined up?
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2011, 08:24:04 PM »

Has anyone in the Antiochian Archdiocese heard when a new bishop will be enthroned for the Diocese of Toledo?

I don't understand one thing in the AOCA -- are bishops Thomas, Joseph, Antoun, Alexander and Basil ruling bishops of their dioceses or auxiliaries of the Archdiocese of North America? If the latter -- can we actually talk of the AOCA as consisting of nine dioceses or is it in fact one huge diocese consisting of nine large deaneries?

Edit: I've just read this document: http://www.antiochian.org/sites/antiochian.org/files/10-22-10_implementation_of_synodal_resolution.pdf -- is such a tyrannical and, I would say, completely noncanonical policy present anywhere else in the Orthodox Church? I know the issue was discussed on the forum but I kept out of the topic at that point...
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2011, 09:40:09 PM »

Are auxiliary bishops enthroned? I thought that was part of the confusion the first time around. Consecrate someone as a diocesan(ruling) bishop and then enthrone him thus marrying him to a diocese you never intended to create and then way down the line telling them they were never intended to be ruling bishops and that their newly created dioceses were in fact subdioceses of one diocese ruled by the only ruling bishop the Metropolitan. 
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2011, 02:55:31 AM »

It's an oddity :-/. For whatever reason Metropolitan Philip wants to keep the names of the "dioceses" intact, but functionally they're back to being regions again. It doesn't seem canonical to de facto depose ruling bishops for no apparent reason, but it's been done and the one bishop who protested strongly enough is in another church now...
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2011, 04:04:45 AM »

I thought that this was about the original Toledo in Spain. You Americans have wrong names for your cities. Tongue
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2011, 08:15:41 AM »

In this particular situation, as others already indicated, the diocese cannot be considered vacant because it is not really a diocese.  All of Aamerica is one diocese with one ruling bishop, Met Philip.  Toledo may be still called a "diocese" as it was formerly, but even if that term is used, Met Philip is considered the only ruling bishop in America, and all other bishops are auxilliaries and serve only at the Metropolitan's will.  So, the removal of the previous bishop did not leave a "diocese" vacant, but rather left the Metropolitan without a helper in that particular area, a situation which he could remedy by consecrating another auxilliary, or by serving that diocese himself without help, or by having one or more of the other auxilliaries help there instead of or in addition to their current responsibilities. 

Perhaps someone in that diocese can say what bishop(s) has/have been serving there since the removal of the previous bishop?
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2011, 09:20:13 AM »

Perhaps someone in that diocese can say what bishop(s) has/have been serving there since the removal of the previous bishop?

The official website of the AOCA (http://www.antiochian.org/midwest) names Bishop Thomas (Joseph) as the locum tenens of the Diocese of Toledo and the Midwest. Moreover, according to the website (http://www.antiochian.org/Northwest), Bishop Joseph (Al-Zehlaoui) is the locum tenens of the Diocese of Eagle River and the Northwest. Metr. Philip, however, is not named as the locum tenes of the Diocese of Worcester and New England which he administers in addition to the Diocese of New York and Washington, D.C. The website states simply that "the Diocese of Worcester is led by His Eminence Metropolitan Philip" (http://www.antiochian.org/newengland).

Is this data up-to-date? What was the name of the bishop who left for another Church? Where did he end up and as whom (an auxiliary or a rulling bishop)?

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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2011, 09:30:00 AM »

What was the name of the bishop who left for another Church? Where did he end up and as whom (an auxiliary or a rulling bishop)?

Bishop Mark of Toledo was received into the OCA and is currently an auxilliary under the Metropolitan - Bishop Mark of Baltimore.  He is currently also Administrator of the Diocese of the South which is currently a vacant diocese.  The OCA has a few vacant dioceses, so he may be elected as a ruling bishop in one of the OCA's dioceses in time.
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2011, 09:41:08 AM »

What was the name of the bishop who left for another Church? Where did he end up and as whom (an auxiliary or a rulling bishop)?

Bishop Mark of Toledo was received into the OCA and is currently an auxilliary under the Metropolitan - Bishop Mark of Baltimore.  He is currently also Administrator of the Diocese of the South which is currently a vacant diocese.  The OCA has a few vacant dioceses, so he may be elected as a ruling bishop in one of the OCA's dioceses in time.

Thanks. I guess that for Bishop Mark, as an American, not Arab, such a decision was the most reasonable in the time of the noncanonical phenomenon in the AOCA.
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2011, 12:09:51 PM »

It's an oddity :-/. For whatever reason Metropolitan Philip wants to keep the names of the "dioceses" intact, but functionally they're back to being regions again. It doesn't seem canonical to de facto depose ruling bishops for no apparent reason . . .

IIRC, Metr. Philip said in some interview that the reason was to "conform the situation of the AOCA to the canons of the Church" (or something to that effect). Do you think he is that ignorant or that cynical? And how is it possible that Patr. Ignatius agreed for such an arrangement?
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2011, 02:41:35 PM »

The term Locum Tenens, as used by numerous Orthodox churches in the US, refers to a temporary phenomenon whereas another bishop oversees a diocese (or whatever you want to call it)  Roll Eyes until another bishop is appointed for that area.

My landlord does the same thing when he goes out of town - he leaves the phone number of his father in law, who I can call in case the drainpipe breaks!  Wink

Here's a interesting explanation I found on the term:

http://eorthodox.wordpress.com/2009/01/28/whats-a-locum-tenens/

Here are examples of the term "locum tenens" as used by the Greek and then the Russian churches:

http://albionfourthrome.blogspot.com/2011/03/archbishop-demetrios-locum-tenens-of.html

http://www.mospat.ru/archive/en/43970.htm

So I would assume that by using the term "locum tenens" in regard to Bishop Thomas, that the Antiochian Archdiocese is under the assumption that Bishop Mark will be replaced.
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2011, 02:45:35 PM »

@ Alpo -

It's interesting to note that before Metropolitan Phillip was on the scene, there were essentially two Antiochian Orthodox churches in the US. The Diocese of Toledo (Ohio) was one; and there was another in New York. So I think it's safe to say that the administrative makeup of the Antiochian Church has been in flux for a long time - going back generations.

http://www.antiochian.org/archdiocesehistory

Just thought I'd put forth a long-term perspective here. I'm not trying to justify anything.
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2011, 03:31:28 PM »

I'm not trying to justify anything.

And you don't need to. It's completely understandable that American cities have same names as European cities. USA was originally created by European immigrants so no wonder that they copied homecountries' cities' names.
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2011, 11:37:07 PM »

I thought that this was about the original Toledo in Spain. You Americans have wrong names for your cities. Tongue

I assumed the thread about going to be about Spain, then was going to make a self-deprecating dumb American joke about Toledo, Ohio having its own Bishop.

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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2011, 12:58:47 AM »

Without getting into much detail, as it is Holy Week and I am a bit tired, this is a very complicated matter.

Some of you recall this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29807.0.html

No matter how you look at this matter, the truth is that the Bishops serve in an indispensable ministry.  They are very much needed, and they do have a great deal of ministerial authority within their Dioceses even now.  Metropolitan Philip is the only bishop with eparchial rights, something that never changed during the whole of the controversy.

And, as all of you noticed, the rest of the Orthodox world pretty much said nothing.  That's because for whatever fault could be found, there are faults in every church regarding the application and interpretation of the canons.
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2011, 02:30:37 AM »

Without getting into much detail, as it is Holy Week and I am a bit tired, this is a very complicated matter.

Father, bless.

This morning when I saw my Doumo-kun backpack hanging behind my bedroom door, I thought of you and said a quick prayer for your efforts this Holy Week.

I hope this little tidbit encourages you in your exhaustion!
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2011, 09:28:00 AM »

Well my original post was not "complicated." I had hoped this thread would not delve into bishop's prerogatives, but evidently it has.

My original question was, when is this diocese going to see a new bishop? And how would this bishop be approved? How does this process work?
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2011, 09:59:29 AM »

Sorry, I was addressing some of the other comments.  As to your original post, let's just say nothing has been announced.  The constitution describes the nomination process which ultimately leads to a decision by the Holy Synod and the requisite consecrations.  However, this process has not always been strictly followed.  Bishop Joseph was sent directly from Damascus without any such procedures, in large part due to the absence of the process from the previous constitution.

So, we will just have to wait and see.  Candidates must be announced prior to the Convention, so we can expect to hear something by June.


Well my original post was not "complicated." I had hoped this thread would not delve into bishop's prerogatives, but evidently it has.

My original question was, when is this diocese going to see a new bishop? And how would this bishop be approved? How does this process work?
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« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2012, 11:02:13 PM »

Has anyone in the Antiochian Archdiocese heard when a new bishop will be enthroned for the Diocese of Toledo?

I don't understand one thing in the AOCA -- are bishops Thomas, Joseph, Antoun, Alexander and Basil ruling bishops of their dioceses or auxiliaries of the Archdiocese of North America? If the latter -- can we actually talk of the AOCA as consisting of nine dioceses or is it in fact one huge diocese consisting of nine large deaneries?

Edit: I've just read this document: http://www.antiochian.org/sites/antiochian.org/files/10-22-10_implementation_of_synodal_resolution.pdf -- is such a tyrannical and, I would say, completely noncanonical policy present anywhere else in the Orthodox Church? I know the issue was discussed on the forum but I kept out of the topic at that point...

This train of thought is how the Catholics work. One Bishop with thousands of Auxiliaries who serve at his prerogative.
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« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2012, 11:17:33 PM »

Has anyone in the Antiochian Archdiocese heard when a new bishop will be enthroned for the Diocese of Toledo?

I don't understand one thing in the AOCA -- are bishops Thomas, Joseph, Antoun, Alexander and Basil ruling bishops of their dioceses or auxiliaries of the Archdiocese of North America? If the latter -- can we actually talk of the AOCA as consisting of nine dioceses or is it in fact one huge diocese consisting of nine large deaneries?

Edit: I've just read this document: http://www.antiochian.org/sites/antiochian.org/files/10-22-10_implementation_of_synodal_resolution.pdf -- is such a tyrannical and, I would say, completely noncanonical policy present anywhere else in the Orthodox Church? I know the issue was discussed on the forum but I kept out of the topic at that point...

This train of thought is how the Catholics work. One Bishop with thousands of Auxiliaries who serve at his prerogative.
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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2012, 11:24:49 PM »

Wow, the internet's so great...
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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2012, 12:41:12 AM »

In December, Bishop Anthony was chosen as the Bishop of the Toledo Diocese.

http://www.antiochian.org/BishopAnthony

AXIOS to Bishop Anthony! Many years!

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« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2012, 12:43:33 AM »

In December, Bishop Anthony was chosen as the Bishop of the Toledo Diocese.

http://www.antiochian.org/BishopAnthony

AXIOS to Bishop Anthony! Many years!

Moderators: Now that the original question of this thread has been answered, is it time to retire/archive it?  Lips Sealed
Only if the discussion on this thread veers off topic.
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« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2012, 11:23:56 AM »

Are Auxiliary Bishops enthroned?
Bishop Anthony is an Auxiliary Bishop according to Metropolitan Phillip.
May God forgive the Metropolitan for all his sins and scandals he has caused.
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« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2012, 12:01:31 PM »

I'm not sure what is happening with the new bishops.

Are Auxiliary Bishops enthroned?
Bishop Anthony is an Auxiliary Bishop according to Metropolitan Phillip.
May God forgive the Metropolitan for all his sins and scandals he has caused.
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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2012, 12:23:57 PM »

Quote
is train of thought is how the Catholics work. One Bishop with thousands of Auxiliaries who serve at his prerogative.
Metropolitan Phillip was a reason I did not want to become Orthodox. Wish of death upon an Orthodox bishop removed by moderator
Last time I looked, Met. Phillip does not have thousands of auxiliary bishops. It is his responsibility to administer the faithful that he is responsible for in the best way he can. If the current way is how he wants to do it, that is his business. I would also state to you to be careful. There's alot of dirt that can be thrown at the OCA (true or false doesn't matter). It does nothing to do so, and only serves to split us.

Back off of Met. Phillip, I think he is fantastic. God bless him and all our Bishops.

PP
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2012, 01:21:31 PM »

Quote
is train of thought is how the Catholics work. One Bishop with thousands of Auxiliaries who serve at his prerogative.
Metropolitan Phillip was a reason I did not want to become Orthodox. Wish of death upon an Orthodox bishop removed by moderator
Last time I looked, Met. Phillip does not have thousands of auxiliary bishops. It is his responsibility to administer the faithful that he is responsible for in the best way he can. If the current way is how he wants to do it, that is his business. I would also state to you to be careful. There's alot of dirt that can be thrown at the OCA (true or false doesn't matter). It does nothing to do so, and only serves to split us.

Back off of Met. Phillip, I think he is fantastic. God bless him and all our Bishops.

PP
Please read what I have in fact written and not infer from your own points and perspective.
I wrote that the train of thought is how the Roman Catholics work. One Bishop (in the case of the Roman Catholics the Pope, in the case of the AOCA Metropolitan Phillip) with (in the case of Roman Catholics) thousands of Auxiliary Bishops (for the AOCA there are only a few, but they are still simply Auxiliary).
We all will die. Weather we go to the place of peaceful repose where the sound of those feasting never ends, or to the place of misery and torment is up to us. Would that someone would pray for my peaceful repose now, while I am still alive so that I may repent, as I do for all of our Bishops. (The moderator took this as a wish for his soon demise and deleted it. My apologies for not writing more clearly. I do not wish the soon demise of any sinner lest they not have time to repent.)
May the Lord make my sins known to all that I may be ashamed and repent. May all who sit upon thrones be corrected weather by God directly or the people if God wills. This is not throwing dirt, this is keeping our fellow Christians on the road. How horrible would it be if your heart was so skewed that you were committing great sins and no one would tell you so that you might repent.
The best way to govern the Church is the way the Church has always done so. The innovations that are present throughout the United States, in all jurisdictions, should be shunned. The innovators called to repentance. The Church has labored long and hard for the way things are done. They have survived persecutions and prosperity. Why then should we turn from the things we have received in word and deed to reinvent schismatic methods?
I renew my prayer for Metropolitan Phillip and all Bishops. May they not taste the flames of hell. May the Lord grant them peaceful repose. This will only happen if they are able to repent and stop causing scandal. Stop stealing from their sheep. Stop covering up sins and crimes of their clergy. Stop striving for more power.
In the days of old Bishops were monks in deed not only in tonsure. This assured that they were striving first for holiness. Today we look for a good administrator, someone likable. We praise Bishops who's greatest skill is rivals that of a political office holder. Today we have fewer wonder workers, fewer monks (male and female), and fewer holy men and women. Is casting off the ways of old what good things have we gotten?
May the Lord forgive me if this is not clear.
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« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2012, 01:39:02 PM »

Quote
Please read what I have in fact written and not infer from your own points and perspective
Sure. I cant read all of what you wrote because the admins felt you were wishing death upon my hierarch...its not just my perspective evidently.

Quote
I wrote that the train of thought is how the Roman Catholics work. One Bishop (in the case of the Roman Catholics the Pope, in the case of the AOCA Metropolitan Phillip) with (in the case of Roman Catholics) thousands of Auxiliary Bishops (for the AOCA there are only a few, but they are still simply Auxiliary).
I will concede that I jumped the gun on that one.

Quote
The innovations that are present throughout the United States, in all jurisdictions, should be shunned
In what way are the American bishops doing something that has not been given blessing from EP or other "traditional" hierarch?

Quote
This will only happen if they are able to repent and stop causing scandal. Stop stealing from their sheep. Stop covering up sins and crimes of their clergy. Stop striving for more power
Please provide evidence that Met. Phillip (or other bishops) are proselytizing against other Orthodox? How are they causing scandal? Proof.


Quote
we have fewer wonder workers
Remember what you said about perspective
Quote
fewer monks
numbers are actually growing, and new monasteries are being built...I would imagine not to have them empty
Quote
fewer holy men and women
Perspective....no proof.

PP
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« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2012, 01:45:18 PM »

I can't tell if you are implying that Metropolitan Philip made up the current situation. If so, you're wrong. And, if you have a problem with the way the Archdiocese is set up regarding auxiliary bishops, you'll have to take it up with the Synod of Antioch, not the metropolitan. You might want to take it up with the Synod of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Athens, and Cyprus, as well. All of them have set up that only archbishops and metropolitans have dioceses/archdiocese/metropolises and bishops are auxiliaries. I know for sure the Synod of Antioch has made this a written rule. I don't know of the others, but I know that they have no ruling "bishops" (title, not office).

This decision is not something Metropolitan Philip came up with. I believe that a few years ago there was some confusion and the Synod clarified it. It didn't do anything new. It had already been done by other synods. America is also not the only country like this. There are auxiliary bishops all over the Orthodox world.


Also, be very careful how you talk about bishops. Not because they are some great person and we can't talk bad about them but because they are our shepherds and talking like that goes against the Church, especially this part. We are to treat them with the highest respect. Talking about them tasting the flames of hell? And that "This will only happen" is bordering on judgement (if not crossing that line). We shouldn't even talk like that about other laymen (or non-Christians), much less those who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit to be our spiritual fathers.
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« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2012, 03:59:25 PM »

Where did I condemn the Metropolitan saying he will taste the flames of hell? In truth I have asked that he may not taste the flames of hell.
I pray that you are right in that this, church structure with the only ruling bishop being a Metropolitan, is acceptable to God.
I remember now why I left working with message boards such as this.
There are those among us who will see nothing but evil in the words of anyone calling us to repentance. Those who do so are considered unstable and judgmental. May God have mercy on us all.
May God deliver his people.
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« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2012, 04:40:41 PM »

Where did I condemn the Metropolitan saying he will taste the flames of hell? In truth I have asked that he may not taste the flames of hell.
I pray that you are right in that this, church structure with the only ruling bishop being a Metropolitan, is acceptable to God.
I remember now why I left working with message boards such as this.
There are those among us who will see nothing but evil in the words of anyone calling us to repentance. Those who do so are considered unstable and judgmental. May God have mercy on us all.
May God deliver his people.
Im not trying to attack you, it is very odd to state certian things that will bring a response. I shall give you an example:


"I pray that Joe Schmo will never molest a small boy."

Upon reading that, anyone would say, "Why the hell would he say something like that?" its natural.

I will say this, you did accuse the metropolitan of stealing sheep and causing scandal. I again, ask for proof.

Simply stating something from on high doesn't work here. You will be called to present proof.


PP
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« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2012, 03:18:15 PM »

Quote
is train of thought is how the Catholics work. One Bishop with thousands of Auxiliaries who serve at his prerogative.
Metropolitan Phillip was a reason I did not want to become Orthodox. Wish of death upon an Orthodox bishop removed by moderator
Last time I looked, Met. Phillip does not have thousands of auxiliary bishops. It is his responsibility to administer the faithful that he is responsible for in the best way he can. If the current way is how he wants to do it, that is his business. I would also state to you to be careful. There's alot of dirt that can be thrown at the OCA (true or false doesn't matter). It does nothing to do so, and only serves to split us.

Back off of Met. Phillip, I think he is fantastic. God bless him and all our Bishops.

PP
In the days of old Bishops were monks in deed not only in tonsure. This assured that they were striving first for holiness. Today we look for a good administrator, someone likable. We praise Bishops who's greatest skill is rivals that of a political office holder. Today we have fewer wonder workers, fewer monks (male and female), and fewer holy men and women. Is casting off the ways of old what good things have we gotten?
May the Lord forgive me if this is not clear.

In the oldest days, bishops were not monks and were often married.  And what skills do you think the most praised bishops have in common with politicians?  Perhaps working with other people?  Perhaps being good at rhetoric?  Well, I am quite certain that any good bishop must know how to work well with those he disagrees with, and go ask St. John Chrysostom about rhetoric.

And I am pretty sure that it is not exactly the old custom to pray for the repose of people who haven't died.
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« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2012, 04:34:06 PM »

Where did I condemn the Metropolitan saying he will taste the flames of hell? In truth I have asked that he may not taste the flames of hell.
I pray that you are right in that this, church structure with the only ruling bishop being a Metropolitan, is acceptable to God.
I remember now why I left working with message boards such as this.
There are those among us who will see nothing but evil in the words of anyone calling us to repentance. Those who do so are considered unstable and judgmental. May God have mercy on us all.
May God deliver his people.
Im not trying to attack you, it is very odd to state certian things that will bring a response. I shall give you an example:


"I pray that Joe Schmo will never molest a small boy."

Upon reading that, anyone would say, "Why the hell would he say something like that?" its natural.

I will say this, you did accuse the metropolitan of stealing sheep and causing scandal. I again, ask for proof.

Simply stating something from on high doesn't work here. You will be called to present proof.


PP
Read the post again.
Did I say that Metropolitan Phillip "stole sheep", that is encouraged people of other jurisdictions to join his. NO.
The careful reader will note that I was not speaking of Metropolitan Phillip directly when I wrote, "Stop stealing from their sheep. Stop covering the sins and crimes of their clergy." Embezzlement is stealing. As far as I know Metropolitan Phillip has not done this and a reasonable person seeing I am from the OCA would take this as remembering my own bishops sins.
Again I ask that you address what is written not what you think is written. To do the former is to engage in dialogue, to do the latter causes you and all involved to look foolish.
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« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2012, 05:22:50 PM »

Quote
Embezzlement is stealing. As far as I know Metropolitan Phillip has not done this and a reasonable person seeing I am from the OCA would take this as remembering my own bishops sins.
By asking people to stop stealing from their sheep is to insinuate that they were doing so.

I did get what you said wrong, but my argument remains the same.

Quote
I renew my prayer for Metropolitan Phillip and all Bishops. May they not taste the flames of hell. May the Lord grant them peaceful repose. This will only happen IF they are able to repent and stop causing scandal. Stop stealing from their sheep. Stop covering up sins and crimes of their clergy. Stop striving for more power
As this states above, you are stating that +Phillip OR the bishops are in fact stealing from their sheep and hiding the crimes of the clergy.

By stating that this will happen if (as in if you do X, Y will happen if you stop X) they stop, that means you are accusing them of doing so.

Granted, I did get what you said wrong originally, but you are still accusing people of these things.



As I said, if I say, Sergius, I pray for your salvation, which will only happen if you stop doing X, that means I am accusing you of X.

proof please?

PP
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« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2012, 05:50:03 PM »

Is there an alcoholic, groping bishop in the AOCA?
Did Metropolitan Phillip move him to Mexico instead of deposing him?
http://almoutran.com/bishop/biography
A convicted American Sex offender sent as a missionary to Mexico. And Metropolitan Phillip has not done anything to cause scandal.
Defend the Metropolitan if you want. It only makes you party to his sin.
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« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2012, 06:06:49 PM »

Is there an alcoholic, groping bishop in the AOCA?
Did Metropolitan Phillip move him to Mexico instead of deposing him?
http://almoutran.com/bishop/biography
A convicted American Sex offender sent as a missionary to Mexico. And Metropolitan Phillip has not done anything to cause scandal.
Defend the Metropolitan if you want. It only makes you party to his sin.
I'll say this. I support the Metropolitan, and still respect him. However, Bishop Demetri was dealt with and forced into early retirement. My problem is, he should have stayed that way.

Now, is Bishop Demetri a raving sex addict groper rapist? Probably not. Heck, I've done some things I should not have done when I was drinking too much. However, Im not a bishop.


PP
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« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2012, 02:54:35 AM »

Now back to the topic.
When will Toledo get it's bishop properly enthroned?
When will all of the bishops of the America quit doing stupid things. When will they quit competing with each other for power and honor and create one synod, one Church for North America?
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« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2012, 06:17:24 AM »

Quote
is train of thought is how the Catholics work. One Bishop with thousands of Auxiliaries who serve at his prerogative.
Metropolitan Phillip was a reason I did not want to become Orthodox. Wish of death upon an Orthodox bishop removed by moderator
Last time I looked, Met. Phillip does not have thousands of auxiliary bishops. It is his responsibility to administer the faithful that he is responsible for in the best way he can. If the current way is how he wants to do it, that is his business. I would also state to you to be careful. There's alot of dirt that can be thrown at the OCA (true or false doesn't matter). It does nothing to do so, and only serves to split us.

Back off of Met. Phillip, I think he is fantastic. God bless him and all our Bishops.

PP
Please read what I have in fact written and not infer from your own points and perspective.
I wrote that the train of thought is how the Roman Catholics work. One Bishop (in the case of the Roman Catholics the Pope, in the case of the AOCA Metropolitan Phillip) with (in the case of Roman Catholics) thousands of Auxiliary Bishops (for the AOCA there are only a few, but they are still simply Auxiliary).
We all will die. Weather we go to the place of peaceful repose where the sound of those feasting never ends, or to the place of misery and torment is up to us. Would that someone would pray for my peaceful repose now, while I am still alive so that I may repent, as I do for all of our Bishops. (The moderator took this as a wish for his soon demise and deleted it. My apologies for not writing more clearly. I do not wish the soon demise of any sinner lest they not have time to repent.)
May the Lord make my sins known to all that I may be ashamed and repent. May all who sit upon thrones be corrected weather by God directly or the people if God wills. This is not throwing dirt, this is keeping our fellow Christians on the road. How horrible would it be if your heart was so skewed that you were committing great sins and no one would tell you so that you might repent.
The best way to govern the Church is the way the Church has always done so. The innovations that are present throughout the United States, in all jurisdictions, should be shunned. The innovators called to repentance. The Church has labored long and hard for the way things are done. They have survived persecutions and prosperity. Why then should we turn from the things we have received in word and deed to reinvent schismatic methods?
I renew my prayer for Metropolitan Phillip and all Bishops. May they not taste the flames of hell. May the Lord grant them peaceful repose. This will only happen if they are able to repent and stop causing scandal. Stop stealing from their sheep. Stop covering up sins and crimes of their clergy. Stop striving for more power.
In the days of old Bishops were monks in deed not only in tonsure. This assured that they were striving first for holiness. Today we look for a good administrator, someone likable. We praise Bishops who's greatest skill is rivals that of a political office holder. Today we have fewer wonder workers, fewer monks (male and female), and fewer holy men and women. Is casting off the ways of old what good things have we gotten?
May the Lord forgive me if this is not clear.


Very poor analogy to RCC as this action was taken by the Synod of Antioch. It would be different if His Beatitude IgnatiusIV would have made all other bishops auxiliaries. At least this is my understanding. I am a recent convert from RC and still have much to learn.
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« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2012, 01:21:14 PM »

Dear Sergius,

I was going to avoid getting involved in this thread, but I can see now that there are some significant misconceptions operating in your posts that I believe I can address.  Please allow me to say a few things.

1) In regards to 'North America,' let's think hard about this.  Do you feel like a 'North American?'  I know I don't, and I have not met anyone who does.  I've met plenty of people who identify as Mexicans, Americans (not to mention particular states such as Texans and Alaskans), and Canadians.  This concept of 'North America' is geographical, but has nothing to do with the reality: more than half of the jurisdictions do not include Mexico in the category of 'North American,' yet geographically the opposite is true.  Mexico identifies southward.

We can applaud the Episcopal Assembly for recognizing this and bidding the Mexican bishops adiós as they meet with the southern assembly, though the efforts to have this recognized by the Mother Churches have been met with silence.  The same is true of the most recent request to allow the Canadian bishops form their own assembly, which would leave [gasp] an assembly of bishops just for the United States!

Your response, a concern for North America, is based on the Old World paradigm.  You should not be correcting bishops when you yourself share their same notions about 'North America,' which is a big part of the problems we presently face.

2) I have already written rather extensively on the canonical issues surrounding the bishops of the Patriarchate of Antioch.  You can read these here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29807.0.html.  In part, Toledo was never formally 'eparchialized' into its own, so it still has a 'diocesan bishop' in the person of Met. Philip.

3) While the enthronements were a recognition of the particular duties of the bishops, the enthronements did not commit eparchial duties to the bishops.  This could not have been done without a rewriting of both the Patriarchal and Archdiocesan constitutions.

4) Met. Philip does not have the canonical authority to defrock Bp. Dimitri or any other bishop.  This could only be done through a Spiritual Court comprised of 12 bishops under the authorization of the Holy Synod of Antioch.  Bp. Dimitri's brief move to Puerto Rico was also under the blessing of the Patriarch.  Met. Philip had no say other that what Bp. Dimitri can or cannot do in his eparchial territory.

5) If you consider Met. Philip's action when the scandal arose with Bp. Dimitri, little time was wasted in suspending his ministry and the Antiochian Archdiocese did not engage in a cover-up.  Bp. Dimitri also 'manned up' and apologized for his misbehavior in a way that even most laypeople would find challenging.  Since that time, he has quietly worked and caused no further scandal.  Met. Philip has no reason to do anything further with a man who repented, unless you have some idea how Met. Philip can get around the canons and really 'punish' Bp. Dimitri.

You don't have to like Met. Philip.  You don't have to like everything that he has done.  You may strongly disagree with many of his decisions.  Just make sure you know what exactly the facts are.  I sincerely hope this helps.


Now back to the topic.
When will Toledo get it's bishop properly enthroned?
When will all of the bishops of the America quit doing stupid things. When will they quit competing with each other for power and honor and create one synod, one Church for North America?
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« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2012, 02:04:02 PM »

I just read the post that you linked regarding the standing of the bishops and found it very fascinating and felt that it explained a lot. After reading the part about metropolitans and archbishops, a thought popped into my head:

With Archbishop Joseph being an archbishop now, does anything change? Will the Patriarchate keep him there or decide to move him so that he has his own archdiocese now? I've been thinking about that since I saw that he had been elevated to archbishop.
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« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2012, 02:39:54 PM »

"With Archbishop Joseph being an archbishop now, does anything change? Will the Patriarchate keep him there or decide to move him so that he has his own archdiocese now? I've been thinking about that since I saw that he had been elevated to archbishop."

I found this curious as well actually - do the Antioch and Moscow Patriarchates follow the same practice in ranking metropolitans above archbishops?
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« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2012, 03:06:01 PM »

The Patriarchal Constitution does not mention the office of 'Archbishop' per se, but reis asaqifa or 'head of bishops' as an aspect of a Metropolitan's office.  So, it is more of an adjective than a noun.

For this reason, it has been used in the last several years as a 'titular' promotion for bishops, the prior case by Archbishop Nikon Saikali who is the Antiochian representative to the Moscow Patriarchate.  This follows the Russian model, which it appears the Patriarchate follows.

So, 'Archbishop' is an honorific title for an auxiliary bishop (in the case of Antioch, all eparchial hierarchs are Metropolitans).  In the North American case, Archbishop Joseph now becomes the senior-most of all the auxiliaries, meaning that when Met. Philip retires or reposes, Archbishop Joseph will function as locum tenens until the Holy Synod elects and consecrates a new metropolitan (or transfers a metropolitan from another eparchy/archdiocese).  Otherwise, the senior-most bishop would be Bishop Antoun, who is not interested in having those responsibilities and, given his age and health, is not an unreasonable stance.


"With Archbishop Joseph being an archbishop now, does anything change? Will the Patriarchate keep him there or decide to move him so that he has his own archdiocese now? I've been thinking about that since I saw that he had been elevated to archbishop."

I found this curious as well actually - do the Antioch and Moscow Patriarchates follow the same practice in ranking metropolitans above archbishops?
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« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2012, 03:48:18 PM »

How interesting - not in line with the norm in Constantinople/Greece then.

Thank God they elevated Archbishop Joseph then :-).
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