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Author Topic: Inside Islam: What a Billion Muslims Really Think  (Read 1998 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 02, 2012, 09:50:28 PM »

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Inside Islam: What a Billion Muslims Really Think, a new documentary film from Unity Productions Foundation, explores the expertly gathered opinions of Muslims around the globe as revealed in the world's first major opinion poll, conducted by Gallup, the preeminent polling organization.

Gallup researchers began by asking the questions on every American's mind. Why is there so much anti-Americanism in the Muslim world? Who are the extremists and how do Muslims feel about them? What do Muslims like and dislike about the West? What do Muslim women really want?

Crucial policy decisions hang on these questions. They continue to generate passionate disagreements in the public square. Yet for all the heat and controversy, the actual views of the world's Muslims have been conspicuously missing from this debate.

Now, we have the missing answers and statistics, gathered, parsed, and analyzed not by pundits but by professional researchers.
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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2012, 01:19:20 PM »

cant watch right now, subscribing.
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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2012, 01:57:48 PM »

More slick propaganda for Islam. Not terribly illuminating or interesting. Pretty soon they won't even have to do dawah anymore, since we're so good at doing it for them.

I have a question: If what is portrayed in that film is Islam, then what the hell is this? 

To hell with Islam. It ruins everything it has ever touched, and I'm sick of being told to understand it. I'm pretty sure Christians in Egypt, Iraq, Nigeria, Ethiopia, and the rest of the non-Western countries have been understanding how terrible it is for 1400 years now, so why doesn't the world try to understand them? I really don't understand why Islam has such good PR. It's insane. The world is insane.
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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2012, 02:12:26 PM »

That is slick.

The problem is that the moderates aren't stepping up to condemn the radicals; they approve of their actions with their silence.
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2012, 02:29:54 PM »

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Inside Islam: What a Billion Muslims Really Think, a new documentary film from Unity Productions Foundation, explores the expertly gathered opinions of Muslims around the globe as revealed in the world's first major opinion poll, conducted by Gallup, the preeminent polling organization.

Gallup researchers began by asking the questions on every American's mind. Why is there so much anti-Americanism in the Muslim world? Who are the extremists and how do Muslims feel about them? What do Muslims like and dislike about the West? What do Muslim women really want?

Crucial policy decisions hang on these questions. They continue to generate passionate disagreements in the public square. Yet for all the heat and controversy, the actual views of the world's Muslims have been conspicuously missing from this debate.

Now, we have the missing answers and statistics, gathered, parsed, and analyzed not by pundits but by professional researchers.

Did they really go to all the effort of interviewing people just to answer simple questions?  Geesh.  Should have come to me first.

Gallup researchers began by asking the questions on every American's mind. Why is there so much anti-Americanism in the Muslim world?  Answer: Depends on which part.  The bombed out ones should be kind of obvious.  The parts with Israelis in them are also somewhat obvious.  As for the rest: they hate us for our freedom.  Duh.

Who are the extremists and how do Muslims feel about them?  Answer: If they use their hat to cover their face and are carrying an AK they might be extremists.  In particular the ones who stone people, cut off their heads or other less useful appendages, push walls onto other people with tanks, etc.  How do Muslims feel about them?  Well, some revolt (Kurds, Tunisia, Northern Alliance, Libya, etc.)  Others support them, if through nothing else but silence.

What do Muslims like and dislike about the West?  Answer: They hate us for our freedom.  They hate us for our freedom.  (I once had a parrot and tried to teach him how to say this.  But he was retarded and just squawked all the time.)  They like us for our mostly operational economies and higher standard of living.  Also, running water.  Big accomplishment on our part.

What do Muslim women really want?  Answer: Same thing all women want.  Me.
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2012, 02:30:55 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2012, 02:34:36 PM »

What do Muslim women really want?  Answer: Same thing all women want.  Me.

I thought all women were supposed to be chasing after Orthonorm.
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« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2012, 02:35:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



stay blessed,
habte selassie

Perfect response to how we should deal with everyone in our lives, whether they are Orthodox, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, etc.
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« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2012, 02:48:33 PM »

What do Muslim women really want?  Answer: Same thing all women want.  Me.

I thought all women were supposed to be chasing after Orthonorm.

Healthy competition is a good thing.
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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2012, 06:50:13 PM »

It's pretty interesting to know that a great deal of pro-Islamic PR stuff in the United States is funded by Islamist groups back in the Middle East. CAIR is a perfect example of this, and Americans swallow it up as they're too far from the source to see non-Muslims being oppressed daily in every part of the Islamic world, without exception.
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« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2012, 07:09:34 PM »

The interesting thing to me is how many Americans I see that seem to think any one that is not in praise of Islam is the victim of some conspiracy or other ("Zionists" or in the case of all those who are into anthropology or sociology, "western hegemony"). They come up with stuff like that but are completely oblivious to the literally thousands of oil rich sheikhs, princes, emirs etc who fund dawah in the west completely overtly. Basically every mosque outside Muslim dominated lands is funded by oil millionaires, who also have their hands in universities and media... The west is just stupid, too easily distracted by American Idol and Hollywood air heads to see the plain, unpleasant things going on completely out in the open.
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« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2012, 08:08:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The interesting thing to me is how many Americans I see that seem to think any one that is not in praise of Islam is the victim of some conspiracy or other ("Zionists" or in the case of all those who are into anthropology or sociology, "western hegemony"). They come up with stuff like that but are completely oblivious to the literally thousands of oil rich sheikhs, princes, emirs etc who fund dawah in the west completely overtly. Basically every mosque outside Muslim dominated lands is funded by oil millionaires, who also have their hands in universities and media... The west is just stupid, too easily distracted by American Idol and Hollywood air heads to see the plain, unpleasant things going on completely out in the open.

Sadly many Americans seem to be brainwashed one direction or the other, a lot of folks seem to have a willful and woeful cognitive disconnect between their hearts and minds, and therefore life in an exaggeration of the fractured human condition like the fathers observed.  In my analysis, the height of American culture is revel in the chaos and lawlessness of the fractured state..


Most Americans are about as ignorant of oil rich sheikhs as they are mercilessly wealthy corporate executives and financial goons..  it cuts both ways.  The world is not perfect, and corruption is as rampant anywhere as anywhere else, the Devil is universal, all the more reason to pray about such matters.  We'd be purely hypocrites to point fingers at the obvious flaws in Muslim societies while taking a heartlessly blind eye to the ills and pitfalls of our own.  How about we get our own house in order before we start throwing stones at the sins of our neighbors. As an American, I am even more disgusted with my own country then Saudi Arabia or Syria any day, we have the same mutually bad blood and yet at least they're not Christians and so they are trapped in their legalistic sins and therefore have an excuse, what is ours?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

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« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2012, 08:14:29 PM »

As an American, I am even more disgusted with my own country then Saudi Arabia or Syria any day

Afraid I agreed with everything except this. There is an awful lot wrong with the United States, but I thank God that our nation doesn't kill and/or terribly oppress religious and ethnic minorities, protesters, adulterers, women that go places alone, etc. like the two examples you gave.
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« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2012, 08:36:12 PM »

What it comes down to is that Westerners really need to get rid of their blind support of "the underdog" and actually pick up and read a history book that wasn't written with a generous grant from the King Abdullah Foundation or whatever. The problem is that with the encroachment of secularism in the West there are actually a lot of people out there who see Jerry Falwell and Osama Bin Laden as two sides of the same coin, and probably prefer OBL and his clones because at least they're "over there". And when the violence comes "over here" (as it did on 9/11, 7/7, 12/25 in Nigeria, etc), all they have to say is "well I'm sure it's the West's fault" or "what about when Christians do ______". These are Muslims' excuses (deflections, really) for crappy, inhuman behavior. That's what the West is these days, I'm afraid. If it were a talk show, it would be "Muslims and the people who love* them".

*- Forgive me, but I must've been out sick the day we all had that big meeting we apparently had where the meaning of "love" was changed to "being a nice and agreeable submissive, no matter how stupid and dangerous the thing you're talking about is".

When Ethiopia was menaced by the terrorist Ahmad Gragn and his Islamic forces, he and his forces were defeated by the cooperation of the Ethiopian and Portuguese empires at the battle of Wayna Daga. I know we are not in the age of empires anymore, but I can't help but wonder: When in our time the Christians of East and their civilizations (which predate Islam, one and all) and the entire civilization of the West (which also predates Islam, of course) are threatened by the same old Muhammadean wickedness, who will come to our aid? If saying "We are fighting against Islam because it seeks to destroy and subjugate us" is too on the nose or too much of a political hot potato (and I can definitely see why it is), then why can we not at least arouse a sense of defensiveness in those who, even though they think they're rooting for the underdog, also stand to lose everything when that dog turns around and bites them in the behind? It's something I have tried to impress upon my multiculturalism-loving friends for years now: If you think it's awful that there are large segments of Christianity in this country who oppose gay marriage in the ballot box, then you don't even want to know how they oppose gay people in Iran, Pakistan, etc.

Even with all its faults, a Western society that is aware of, supportive of, and unapologetic about its Christian (or at least Christian-inherited) values is a hell of a lot better than one that is obnoxiously forceful about its Islamic basis. Sadly, with awful but slick Islamic propaganda and oil money to continue churning it out, the people who most need to understand that probably never will. If only the Orthodox Church of the Middle East had its own sophisticated, media-ready propaganda that could get shown outside of explicitly religious channels. Islam has been fashioned into something for the Westerner to experience (a subtle form of dawah; see: the program in the OP, National Geographic's "Inside Mecca", etc.) so that they might become more comfortable with it, while we are still struggling to be known, let alone bring them to experience what being a Coptic, Syriac, Arab, etc. Christian is like. It's sad and distressing.
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« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2012, 10:03:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

What it comes down to is that Westerners really need to get rid of their blind support of "the underdog" and actually pick up and read a history book that wasn't written with a generous grant from the King Abdullah Foundation or whatever. The problem is that with the encroachment of secularism in the West there are actually a lot of people out there who see Jerry Falwell and Osama Bin Laden as two sides of the same coin, and probably prefer OBL and his clones because at least they're "over there". And when the violence comes "over here" (as it did on 9/11, 7/7, 12/25 in Nigeria, etc), all they have to say is "well I'm sure it's the West's fault" or "what about when Christians do ______". These are Muslims' excuses (deflections, really) for crappy, inhuman behavior. That's what the West is these days, I'm afraid. If it were a talk show, it would be "Muslims and the people who love* them".

*- Forgive me, but I must've been out sick the day we all had that big meeting we apparently had where the meaning of "love" was changed to "being a nice and agreeable submissive, no matter how stupid and dangerous the thing you're talking about is".

When Ethiopia was menaced by the terrorist Ahmad Gragn and his Islamic forces, he and his forces were defeated by the cooperation of the Ethiopian and Portuguese empires at the battle of Wayna Daga. I know we are not in the age of empires anymore, but I can't help but wonder: When in our time the Christians of East and their civilizations (which predate Islam, one and all) and the entire civilization of the West (which also predates Islam, of course) are threatened by the same old Muhammadean wickedness, who will come to our aid? If saying "We are fighting against Islam because it seeks to destroy and subjugate us" is too on the nose or too much of a political hot potato (and I can definitely see why it is), then why can we not at least arouse a sense of defensiveness in those who, even though they think they're rooting for the underdog, also stand to lose everything when that dog turns around and bites them in the behind? It's something I have tried to impress upon my multiculturalism-loving friends for years now: If you think it's awful that there are large segments of Christianity in this country who oppose gay marriage in the ballot box, then you don't even want to know how they oppose gay people in Iran, Pakistan, etc.



We understand how you feel, and appreciate your testimony, and as Christians we can all speak our hearts without having to judge each other. So long as our intentions and motivations are on the same page, its all good.  Yes, there are atrocities occurring in the Muslim world, but some folks I fear like to point the finger away to cover up the smell of all the garbage at home.  In my opinion, all the garbage stinks wherever its from,  but I can only clean up the messes at home in my direct proximity, and in my surroundings I see a lot of broken and fretful hearts that need the healing of the Gospel and the Divine Mysteries.

Also I must interject some historicity to your citing of the Gragn.. That was a holocaust by all definitions. It tears up my heart every time just to delve into such memory, but just because it is emotional and close to home, doesn't mean we can let "appeals to emotion" distract us from the facts. Of course, history doesn't occur in a vacuum, and in the context of the 15th and 16th century Ethiopia, the highland Christians had been fighting wars against the Muslims in coastal Adal for about fifty solid years of which the Gragn's invasion was a crescendo.  The Gragn's own grandfather was killed in those wars, which is partly what had individually motivated him, and the on-the-ground motivations for his followers was not always Islamic fanaticism so much as simple greed and economic opportunity of pillaging and looting, which was the basis of the East African and particularly Ethiopian regional economies during these periods.  In fact, not all the folks in the Gragn's armies were even Muslims, and a lot of southern and central "Ethiopians" like the folks in Wollo and current Oromo later converted to Islam in retaliatory reaction to encrouchment by Imperial Christianity. The Gragn built his 14 years of success on the same strategies as Cortez conquered Mexico, divide and conquer.  Oromo cavalries joined his forces as did other disenfranchised and bitter rivals and subjects of Ethiopian taxes and punitive raiding parties.  Adal was never powerful enough by itself to maintain such long-lasting military campaigns, the Gragn built up local support during all those years of war and occupation.

 The Ethiopian Church has been a Crusading Church too, we are just learning how to theological deal with this historical baggage, in this regard the Latins are way up on us. This does not vindicate the Gragn, NOTHING EXONERATES OR JUSTIFIES TERROR, however we have to understand these events in the context of mutual warfare and not a blindsiding surprise attack.  The Gragn was not Pearl Harbor, it took generations of hostilities to build up to that point.

The gist of it..

Of course these Muslims regimes are scumbags.  Sometimes, we're complicit, including America, our European friends, and even the current Ethiopian regime.  Pointing the finger without washing our hands is not going to  work very well. Lets take out ALL the trash, at home and abroad, you feel me?

Prayer beads make more waves than drone strikes and surgical military strikes, so lets keep it up in the faith.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 10:07:00 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2012, 10:38:00 PM »

Are you done badmouthing your own church yet, Habte? I can wait, just as I'll apparently have to keep waiting for you to grasp the point of the post you just responded to, because it certainly wasn't whether or not the EOTC has ever been a "Crusading church", or whether or not Gragn's forces (why "the" Gragn? We're not speaking Amarignglish, so there's no need put an article in there) were motivated by economics or whatever.

Of course all garbage stinks no matter where it's from, but this particular thread is about Islamic garbage (like the video in the OP), which as far as I am concerned is just a long way of saying "Islam", since Islam is garbage. From Satan's mouth to Muhammad's ears.
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« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2012, 10:48:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Are you done badmouthing your own church yet, Habte? I can wait, just as I'll apparently have to keep waiting for you to grasp the point of the post you just responded to, because it certainly wasn't whether or not the EOTC has ever been a "Crusading church", or whether or not Gragn's forces (why "the" Gragn? We're not speaking Amarignglish, so there's no need put an article in there) were motivated by economics or whatever.

Of course all garbage stinks no matter where it's from, but this particular thread is about Islamic garbage (like the video in the OP), which as far as I am concerned is just a long way of saying "Islam", since Islam is garbage. From Satan's mouth to Muhammad's ears.

 History is history brother, I just call the cards where they fall.  
Quote
War with Adal (1443-1445)
Conquest of territory on the Red Sea; war with Mitsiwa (1448-1449)
War with Adal; loss of Yifat (1508)
War with Adal; loss of border regions (1527-1528)
War with Adal; since 1541 Abyssinia supported by a Portuguese force (1535-1543)

Muslim-Christian relations soured during the reign of the aggressive Negus Yeshaq (ruled 1414-29). Forces of his rapidly expanding empire descended from the highlands to despoil Muslim settlements in the valley east of the ancient city of Harer. Having branded the Muslims "enemies of the Lord," Yeshaq invaded the Muslim Kingdom of Ifat in 1415. He crushed the armies of Ifat and put to flight in the wastes along the Gulf of Tadjoura (in present-day Djibouti) Ifat's king Saad ad Din. Yeshaq followed Saad ad Din to the island off the coast of Saylac (which still bears his name), where the Muslim king was killed. Yeshaq compelled the Muslims to offer tribute, and also ordered his singers to compose a gloating hymn of thanksgiving for his victory. In the hymn's lyrics, the word Somali appears for the first time in written record.
http://ethiopiamilitary.com/ethio-somalia-war/

Sorry for the pour source but I'm not about to transcribe whole pages out of the history books on my shelf, besides you probably wouldn't hear me anyways..

Sorry for being honest,but I'm not fond of hiding behind idealism.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 10:54:25 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2012, 10:59:19 PM »

Alright, sorry for being equally honest, but your reply is nonsense, as the post stands without the reference to Ethiopia, the point of which was in the questions that came after it, not your (or that website's) reading of the history. I will try to be more clear in the future.
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« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2012, 12:00:33 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Alright, sorry for being equally honest,

Amen Amen, so long as we can always agree as Christians to let by-gones be by-gones that is all we can hope for Smiley


and sorry to jump on you with the historical debate, that is another of my biases, I am like a historicity-Nazi yo..

My underlying bias:

In my country, the United States, we also have a history of domestic radical terrorism, of churches being bombed, of people including women and children being mercilessly slaughtered by brutal and hate-filled violence.  Some Americans even thought they to were serving the will of God by killing and brutalizing other Americans, sound familiar?  And  do you know how we resolved this?



I pray that all radical terrorism, Muslim, Christian, sectarian, militaristic or otherwise, be resolved by God's Grace, and that He send His Spirit to console all our hearts which are broken from the wounds of others sins and our own.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2012, 12:24:38 AM »

That is an unhelpful comparison. Please appreciate the cultural differences between the USA and the places where the majority of the world's Muslims live and you'll begin to understand why I find your invoking of MLK, while appropriate for the day, inappropriate for the thread.

Not to mention that it does not at all jibe with your stance that you are "not fond of hiding behind idealism". Undecided
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Inserting personal quote here.


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« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2012, 12:56:26 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Alright, sorry for being equally honest,

Amen Amen, so long as we can always agree as Christians to let by-gones be by-gones that is all we can hope for Smiley


and sorry to jump on you with the historical debate, that is another of my biases, I am like a historicity-Nazi yo..

My underlying bias:

In my country, the United States, we also have a history of domestic radical terrorism, of churches being bombed, of people including women and children being mercilessly slaughtered by brutal and hate-filled violence.  Some Americans even thought they to were serving the will of God by killing and brutalizing other Americans, sound familiar?  And  do you know how we resolved this?



I pray that all radical terrorism, Muslim, Christian, sectarian, militaristic or otherwise, be resolved by God's Grace, and that He send His Spirit to console all our hearts which are broken from the wounds of others sins and our own.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Sorry habte, I dont understand the comparison.

PP
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« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2012, 02:01:57 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

That is an unhelpful comparison. Please appreciate the cultural differences between the USA and the places where the majority of the world's Muslims live and you'll begin to understand why I find your invoking of MLK, while appropriate for the day, inappropriate for the thread.

Not to mention that it does not at all jibe with your stance that you are "not fond of hiding behind idealism". Undecided



Sorry habte, I dont understand the comparison.

PP

Excuse me, but in the 1860s to the 1950s black folks were straight lynched from trees and folks would have a barbecue to celebrate..  The KKK bombed churches with impunity.  Black folks were terrorized as if they lived with Al Qaeda in Iraq yo..  that is MY COUNTRY's legacy, that is our heritage.  How did we deal with terrorism? Did we wage a war and blitz against the KKK? No, brothers like the good Dr King led the masses in the streets peacefully, in the Grace of God, and it took 20 years, and was the culmination of 250 years of genocide, slavery, and systematic racism.  The analogy is perfect.  Black folks were 10% of the US population, Coptic Christians in Egypt today make the same numbers..  

How did black folks solve the problem? They got white folks involved.  How are we going to deal with today's radical Islamic terrorists? Just like the KKK, if we Christians are a minority in those regions than like Martin did, we're going to have to get the majority involved, and those are Muslims, so being unfriendly to Islam isn't going to do the job.  If Dr King's movement and been vindictively anti-white then it would have failed, if it had resorted to systematic violence in retaliation it would have failed. We today as Christians can learn from our Christian victories of the past.  

That is not idealism, that is history, that is reality.

How did Dr King solve to problem? It turns out white folks and the KKK were people to, and like all people, there were hearts beating in their chests.   Dr King and the Civil Rights movement attacked America's sense of conscience, and made America stricken with compunction for the guilt of history.  Muslims are people too, they have hearts too, they too can be convinced by compunction.


stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 02:06:52 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2012, 02:08:18 PM »

Quote
Excuse me, but in the 19430s and 1940s black folks were straight lynched from trees and folks would have a barbecue to celebrate..  The KKK bombed churches with impunity.  Black folks were terrorized as if they lived with Al Qaeda in Iraq yo..  that is MY COUNTRY's legacy, that is our heritage.  How did we deal with terrorism? Did we wage a war and blitz against the KKK? No, brothers like the good Dr King led the masses in the streets peacefully, in the Grace of God, and it took 20 years, and was the culmination of 250 years of genocide, slavery, and systematic racism.  The analogy is perfect.  Black folks were 10% of the US population, Coptic Christians in Egypt today make the same numbers.. 

How did black folks solve the problem? They got white folks involved.  How are we going to deal with today's radical Islamic terrorists? Just like the KKK, if we Christians are a minority in those regions than like Martin did, we're going to have to get the majority involved, and those are Muslims, so being unfriendly to Islam isn't going to do the job.  If Dr King's movement and been vindictively anti-white then it would have failed, if it had resorted to systematic violence in retaliation it would have failed. We today as Christians can learn from our Christian victories of the past. 

That is not idealism, that is history, that is reality.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
The difference is, in those days, the majority of Americans didn't want to kill blacks, or think of them as sub-human, not deserving of anything.....muslims in Egypt (and conversely in the Middle East) do. Peaceful ways wont work in the Middle Eastern countries.

Also, the racists in this country tried to equate their religion with racism. They failed. The Qu'ran actually spells it out for them on how they should do it.

PP
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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2012, 02:32:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Excuse me, but in the 19430s and 1940s black folks were straight lynched from trees and folks would have a barbecue to celebrate..  The KKK bombed churches with impunity.  Black folks were terrorized as if they lived with Al Qaeda in Iraq yo..  that is MY COUNTRY's legacy, that is our heritage.  How did we deal with terrorism? Did we wage a war and blitz against the KKK? No, brothers like the good Dr King led the masses in the streets peacefully, in the Grace of God, and it took 20 years, and was the culmination of 250 years of genocide, slavery, and systematic racism.  The analogy is perfect.  Black folks were 10% of the US population, Coptic Christians in Egypt today make the same numbers..  

How did black folks solve the problem? They got white folks involved.  How are we going to deal with today's radical Islamic terrorists? Just like the KKK, if we Christians are a minority in those regions than like Martin did, we're going to have to get the majority involved, and those are Muslims, so being unfriendly to Islam isn't going to do the job.  If Dr King's movement and been vindictively anti-white then it would have failed, if it had resorted to systematic violence in retaliation it would have failed. We today as Christians can learn from our Christian victories of the past.  

That is not idealism, that is history, that is reality.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
The difference is, in those days, the majority of Americans didn't want to kill blacks, or think of them as sub-human, not deserving of anything.....muslims in Egypt (and conversely in the Middle East) do. Peaceful ways wont work in the Middle Eastern countries.

Also, the racists in this country tried to equate their religion with racism. They failed. The Qu'ran actually spells it out for them on how they should do it.

PP

Really? If that is the case then why did take 250 years to abolish slavery, and another 100 years to destroy terrorism against black people? Lets not pretend the past is what it wasn't American was vitriolically racist, and the overwhelming majority of Americans were in favor of slavery and later Jim Crowe.  Further, I do recall the KKK and the racist establishment of the country believed the Bible justified slavery and that the Bible justified the abuse and even killing of black people. Frederick Douglas noted that the most physically and emotionally abusive slavers were the Bible reading religious folks..

 Sorry, then, I still don't see any flaws in the analogy or American experience, but if y'all don't want to try a model that has proven effective the past that is fine, InI will still hoist the flag of peace and love.  InI still believe that Muslims are people too, and they have a heart, and their hearts can be convinced, just as American hearts were.  I suppose the real issue, is that again, it is going to have to take the force of LOVE and COMPASSION to yet AGAIN move American hearts as we did before, and then perhaps we can get going in the Islamic world too.. The plank in one's own eye you know?

Again, I love all y'all truly, but love must be universal, and love must push us to forgiveness, and love must push us to an understanding, and war will only keep pushing us away, when Christ is trying to bring us together.  Do you all not believe that the Holy Spirit is not able to operate in the Islamic world? Do y'all not believe that Muslims should convert and become Christians?  Well, then let us pray for that, and focus on that, rather then beating the war drum all the time.

stay blessed,
habte selasse
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« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2012, 02:37:53 PM »

Whether or not you understand why, Habte, your comparison is still not well-founded. In Egypt the majority of Muslims are converted people of Coptic heritage. It wasn't really even until the Nasser era when Egypt as a whole began to be self-identified with Arab or Arabism, and still even today there are many Muslims who identify as "Coptic" or Pharaonic people. So the division there is not racial anyway, it's religious. With Islam, the bigotry is always religious first, with racial prejudice coming in as necessary when the conquered or subjugated peoples' behavior and custom doesn't match that of the Arabs (see: treatment of Amazight in North Africa, treatment of mostly-Muslim people from the subcontinent in the Gulf, treatment of Nubians in Egypt, etc).



 
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« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2012, 02:42:19 PM »

Quote
Really? If that is the case then why did take 250 years to abolish slavery, and another 100 years to destroy terrorism against black people?

What does this have to do with Islam being terrible? Are we supposed to then ask "Why has it taken Islam 1400 years and counting to cease its war against the native Christians and other non-Muslims of the Middle East and the rest of the world?" Because we already know the answer to that: Their religion, unlike ours, commands that they do that. It's DESIGNED that way. That's Islam being Islam.
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« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2012, 02:44:38 PM »


Again, I love all y'all truly, but love must be universal, and love must push us to forgiveness, and love must push us to an understanding, and war will only keep pushing us away, when Christ is trying to bring us together.  Do you all not believe that the Holy Spirit is not able to operate in the Islamic world? Do y'all not believe that Muslims should convert and become Christians?  Well, then let us pray for that, and focus on that, rather then beating the war drum all the time.

stay blessed,
habte selasse

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)

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« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2012, 02:45:58 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Whatever..

If all this negativity fulfills your hearts, keep with it, as for me, y'all know where I'm at.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2012, 02:49:14 PM »

Moping?

I refuse to say "Whatever" about this dangerous religio-political ideology that is threatening the world. If you want to call that negativity, that's on you.
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« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2012, 02:52:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Excuse me, but in the 19430s and 1940s black folks were straight lynched from trees and folks would have a barbecue to celebrate..  The KKK bombed churches with impunity.  Black folks were terrorized as if they lived with Al Qaeda in Iraq yo..  that is MY COUNTRY's legacy, that is our heritage.  How did we deal with terrorism? Did we wage a war and blitz against the KKK? No, brothers like the good Dr King led the masses in the streets peacefully, in the Grace of God, and it took 20 years, and was the culmination of 250 years of genocide, slavery, and systematic racism.  The analogy is perfect.  Black folks were 10% of the US population, Coptic Christians in Egypt today make the same numbers..  

How did black folks solve the problem? They got white folks involved.  How are we going to deal with today's radical Islamic terrorists? Just like the KKK, if we Christians are a minority in those regions than like Martin did, we're going to have to get the majority involved, and those are Muslims, so being unfriendly to Islam isn't going to do the job.  If Dr King's movement and been vindictively anti-white then it would have failed, if it had resorted to systematic violence in retaliation it would have failed. We today as Christians can learn from our Christian victories of the past.  

That is not idealism, that is history, that is reality.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
The difference is, in those days, the majority of Americans didn't want to kill blacks, or think of them as sub-human, not deserving of anything.....muslims in Egypt (and conversely in the Middle East) do. Peaceful ways wont work in the Middle Eastern countries.

Also, the racists in this country tried to equate their religion with racism. They failed. The Qu'ran actually spells it out for them on how they should do it.

PP

Really? If that is the case then why did take 250 years to abolish slavery, and another 100 years to destroy terrorism against black people?

We would first have to have Islam abolish slavery in order to make a comparison.

Lets not pretend the past is what it wasn't American was vitriolically racist, and the overwhelming majority of Americans were in favor of slavery and later Jim Crowe.  Further, I do recall the KKK and the racist establishment of the country believed the Bible justified slavery and that the Bible justified the abuse and even killing of black people. Frederick Douglas noted that the most physically and emotionally abusive slavers were the Bible reading religious folks.
Harriet Beacher Stowe was the daughter, wife and mother of Christian clergymen.

You are right, however, on the preferred method:
Sorry, then, I still don't see any flaws in the analogy or American experience, but if y'all don't want to try a model that has proven effective the past that is fine, InI will still hoist the flag of peace and love.  InI still believe that Muslims are people too, and they have a heart, and their hearts can be convinced, just as American hearts were.  I suppose the real issue, is that again, it is going to have to take the force of LOVE and COMPASSION to yet AGAIN move American hearts as we did before, and then perhaps we can get going in the Islamic world too.. The plank in one's own eye you know?

Again, I love all y'all truly, but love must be universal, and love must push us to forgiveness, and love must push us to an understanding, and war will only keep pushing us away, when Christ is trying to bring us together.  Do you all not believe that the Holy Spirit is not able to operate in the Islamic world? Do y'all not believe that Muslims should convert and become Christians?  Well, then let us pray for that, and focus on that, rather then beating the war drum all the time.

stay blessed,
habte selasse
Fr. Zacharia Butros is showing how it is done one hand.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyNJ1IdXnYY
The Copts who engaged in the overthrowal of Mubarak (who was going to fall, nothing could keep him up), engaging in society at large with Egyptian Muslims rather than sitting on the sidelines, did it on another.
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« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2012, 02:53:24 PM »

Quote
Really? If that is the case then why did take 250 years to abolish slavery, and another 100 years to destroy terrorism against black people? Lets not pretend the past is what it wasn't American was vitriolically racist, and the overwhelming majority of Americans were in favor of slavery and later Jim Crowe.
There was a civil war over something like that. Maybe looking it up would help. However, the vast majority of Jim Crowe laws were in the South which had is share of racism, to be sure. However, to state the entireity of the country was like that is really being ignorant of history.

Quote
I suppose the real issue, is that again, it is going to have to take the force of LOVE and COMPASSION to yet AGAIN move American hearts as we did before, and then perhaps we can get going in the Islamic world too.. The plank in one's own eye you know?
UPDATE: The Muslims attacking and killing Christians in the mid East arent Americans. Our culture can deal with things in a different way. Theirs is religious in nature. It would be the same as trying to convice Orthodox that Jesus was not the messiah. It is put strongly in them that Allah demands conversion, the tax, or the sword. This isnt a new concept that Muslims just thought up. Read the muslim writings during Rahman's invasion of Spain in the 8th century. It will sound pretty familiar. Thank God The Hammer didn't hug his way to peace with Rahman or France would be name Al Snail-Eater Arabia right now.

Quote
Do you all not believe that the Holy Spirit is not able to operate in the Islamic world?
Of course I do. But that is the same argument as the guy on his house during a flood. A boat, a helicopter came by and he said "God will save me". Then he drowned and went to heaven. he asked God, "Why didnt you save me?" God said, "I sent you a boat and a helicopter....what more do you want?"

Also, did Christ lovey-dovey the money-changers in the temple? Nope.

Im not saying violence is not always the answer, but sometimes you have to stand up and defend yourself.
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« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2012, 03:11:08 PM »

We would first have to have Islam abolish slavery in order to make a comparison.

This is a good point. I remember seeing a few years ago a documentary on PBS about the persistence of slavery in a certain country in North Africa (Mauritania, I believe it was), and the existence of a grassroots human rights organization there started by an ex-slave turned lawyer who was pressing the government to enforce anti-slavery laws that had been on the books there since 1980 or so. While the organization was quite unique given its founder's background, the legal situation apparently was less unique than we'd like to think it would be in our times.

Quote
Fr. Zacharia Butros is showing how it is done one hand.
 

How is Fr. Zacharia these days? He was a bit of a U.S. media darling a while ago, at least with the Evangelicals (the report they did on him on CBN or some such was pretty weird, transforming him from a Coptic Orthodox person to a "Bible-believing Christian"; I suppose that's the magic of TV), but I've heard from Coptic friends that he ran into some disagreements of some kind with the COC that led to the cancellation of his TV show. I stay well out of church politics, but I pray he is doing well and still active in his ministry. His style is certainly a breath of fresh air.

Quote
The Copts who engaged in the overthrowal of Mubarak (who was going to fall, nothing could keep him up), engaging in society at large with Egyptian Muslims rather than sitting on the sidelines, did it on another.

This year at Thanksgiving, the Coptic community in Albuquerque gathered at the home of one of its most esteemed members, as is apparently traditional. We were asked to go around the table and tell what we are thankful for, and one man thanked God for the Egyptian revolution. This led to some "Amins" and some askance glances. The difference of opinion is just as sharp thousands of miles away from the action, it seems. I'm thankful that as a non-Egyptian I can sit it out and enjoy watching people argue with each other over coffee and cards.  Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2012, 03:20:43 PM »

Fr. Zakaria is still around. His Wikipedia article is not the most polished, even by Wiki standards, but I thought I'd post it here, along with his own site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakaria_Botros

http://www.fatherzakaria.net/

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« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2012, 03:35:15 PM »

Thanks, Biro. I wasn't sure the status of his activities after some of my Coptic friends mentioned that there was some kind of conflict between him and the COC. Then again, I guess similar conflict didn't stop Fr. Matta el-Meskeen from getting his books published and whatnot. As HH Pope Shenouda III says, we fight against ideas, not people, but from all I've seen I find nothing at fault in Fr. Zacharia's ideas concerning bringing the truth to Muslims.
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« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2012, 03:46:30 PM »

How is Fr. Zacharia these days? He was a bit of a U.S. media darling a while ago, at least with the Evangelicals (the report they did on him on CBN or some such was pretty weird, transforming him from a Coptic Orthodox person to a "Bible-believing Christian"; I suppose that's the magic of TV)
All Coptic Orthodox persons are (or should be) not only "Bible-believing Christians" but the Bible-believing Christians.
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« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2012, 04:00:58 PM »

Of course they should be and are! But then "Bible-believing Christian" means something very different to Evangelicals, hence this.

"He's also a born-again Coptic priest...", whatever that is (I really doubt they are talking about his rebirth in baptism)

"..he started to share Christ with anyone who would listen, Coptics and Muslims alike" (This reminds me of the Coptic bishop of Assiut's reply to the Presbyterian missionaries who came in 1860 to convert his people to Presbyterianism: "We have been living with Christ for more than 1800 years, how long have you been living with Him?")

etc.

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« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2012, 01:21:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

You are right, however, on the preferred method:
Sorry, then, I still don't see any flaws in the analogy or American experience, but if y'all don't want to try a model that has proven effective the past that is fine, InI will still hoist the flag of peace and love.  InI still believe that Muslims are people too, and they have a heart, and their hearts can be convinced, just as American hearts were.  I suppose the real issue, is that again, it is going to have to take the force of LOVE and COMPASSION to yet AGAIN move American hearts as we did before, and then perhaps we can get going in the Islamic world too.. The plank in one's own eye you know?

Fr. Zacharia Butros is showing how it is done one hand.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyNJ1IdXnYY
The Copts who engaged in the overthrowal of Mubarak (who was going to fall, nothing could keep him up), engaging in society at large with Egyptian Muslims rather than sitting on the sidelines, did it on another.

Amen Amen. EXACTLY! I adore Father Zacharia's efforts and the Alexandrian Church as time and again agreed with the MLK approach of grass-roots community activism and advocacy while increasing inter-societal dialogue. God fights our battles for us, we must rely on prayer and synergy to accomplish His Grace in time.  But this spiritual war starts in our own hearts, how we view and treat our fellow human beings, be they friends or enemies, they remain brothers and sisters.  

Quote
As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem.  And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?”  But Jesus turned and rebuked them saying, "For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." b]
Luke 9:51-55


However, to state the entireity of the country was like that is really being ignorant of history.



If you are trying to suggest that ONLY the South was racist, then who is kidding who about being ignorant of American history.  Los Angeles was the largest all-white (the means segregated) city in the country during the 1920s.  The racism in Boston was as dangerous as wide-spread as it was in Memphis.  New York had more race riots than Atlanta.  Sorry my brother, but this really shouldn't be news to you.  America used to be a lot more frightening a place than it has become today, and my point is precisely that if by love folks have changed America, by love we can change other places.  If folks have the courage to beat the war drum and use violence and arms, why not all the more courage to stand up in prayer?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2012, 02:23:03 PM »

Quote
If you are trying to suggest that ONLY the South was racist, then who is kidding who about being ignorant of American history.  Los Angeles was the largest all-white (the means segregated) city in the country during the 1920s.  The racism in Boston was as dangerous as wide-spread as it was in Memphis.  New York had more race riots than Atlanta.  Sorry my brother, but this really shouldn't be news to you.  America used to be a lot more frightening a place than it has become today, and my point is precisely that if by love folks have changed America, by love we can change other places.  If folks have the courage to beat the war drum and use violence and arms, why not all the more courage to stand up in prayer?
No, I was referring to you trying to insinuate that the "vast majority" of the country was violently racist. That is patently not true. No, racism wasnt only in the South, but the base of the fire was there. You can try to spin it however you want, but fact does not support your opinion. Simply looking at the implementation and enforcement of Jim Crowe through the various states makes this pretty obvious.

However, it really does not matter, because the racial tensions in the US and Islamist violence against Christians in the Middle East have nothing in common. Show me facts, not hyper-emotional, pie-in-the-sky nonsense.

PP
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« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2012, 07:27:39 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

What it comes down to is that Westerners really need to get rid of their blind support of "the underdog" and actually pick up and read a history book that wasn't written with a generous grant from the King Abdullah Foundation or whatever. The problem is that with the encroachment of secularism in the West there are actually a lot of people out there who see Jerry Falwell and Osama Bin Laden as two sides of the same coin, and probably prefer OBL and his clones because at least they're "over there". And when the violence comes "over here" (as it did on 9/11, 7/7, 12/25 in Nigeria, etc), all they have to say is "well I'm sure it's the West's fault" or "what about when Christians do ______". These are Muslims' excuses (deflections, really) for crappy, inhuman behavior. That's what the West is these days, I'm afraid. If it were a talk show, it would be "Muslims and the people who love* them".

*- Forgive me, but I must've been out sick the day we all had that big meeting we apparently had where the meaning of "love" was changed to "being a nice and agreeable submissive, no matter how stupid and dangerous the thing you're talking about is".

When Ethiopia was menaced by the terrorist Ahmad Gragn and his Islamic forces, he and his forces were defeated by the cooperation of the Ethiopian and Portuguese empires at the battle of Wayna Daga. I know we are not in the age of empires anymore, but I can't help but wonder: When in our time the Christians of East and their civilizations (which predate Islam, one and all) and the entire civilization of the West (which also predates Islam, of course) are threatened by the same old Muhammadean wickedness, who will come to our aid? If saying "We are fighting against Islam because it seeks to destroy and subjugate us" is too on the nose or too much of a political hot potato (and I can definitely see why it is), then why can we not at least arouse a sense of defensiveness in those who, even though they think they're rooting for the underdog, also stand to lose everything when that dog turns around and bites them in the behind? It's something I have tried to impress upon my multiculturalism-loving friends for years now: If you think it's awful that there are large segments of Christianity in this country who oppose gay marriage in the ballot box, then you don't even want to know how they oppose gay people in Iran, Pakistan, etc.



We understand how you feel, and appreciate your testimony, and as Christians we can all speak our hearts without having to judge each other. So long as our intentions and motivations are on the same page, its all good.  Yes, there are atrocities occurring in the Muslim world, but some folks I fear like to point the finger away to cover up the smell of all the garbage at home.  In my opinion, all the garbage stinks wherever its from,  but I can only clean up the messes at home in my direct proximity, and in my surroundings I see a lot of broken and fretful hearts that need the healing of the Gospel and the Divine Mysteries.

Also I must interject some historicity to your citing of the Gragn.. That was a holocaust by all definitions. It tears up my heart every time just to delve into such memory, but just because it is emotional and close to home, doesn't mean we can let "appeals to emotion" distract us from the facts. Of course, history doesn't occur in a vacuum, and in the context of the 15th and 16th century Ethiopia, the highland Christians had been fighting wars against the Muslims in coastal Adal for about fifty solid years of which the Gragn's invasion was a crescendo.  The Gragn's own grandfather was killed in those wars, which is partly what had individually motivated him, and the on-the-ground motivations for his followers was not always Islamic fanaticism so much as simple greed and economic opportunity of pillaging and looting, which was the basis of the East African and particularly Ethiopian regional economies during these periods.  In fact, not all the folks in the Gragn's armies were even Muslims, and a lot of southern and central "Ethiopians" like the folks in Wollo and current Oromo later converted to Islam in retaliatory reaction to encrouchment by Imperial Christianity. The Gragn built his 14 years of success on the same strategies as Cortez conquered Mexico, divide and conquer.  Oromo cavalries joined his forces as did other disenfranchised and bitter rivals and subjects of Ethiopian taxes and punitive raiding parties.  Adal was never powerful enough by itself to maintain such long-lasting military campaigns, the Gragn built up local support during all those years of war and occupation.

 The Ethiopian Church has been a Crusading Church too, we are just learning how to theological deal with this historical baggage, in this regard the Latins are way up on us. This does not vindicate the Gragn, NOTHING EXONERATES OR JUSTIFIES TERROR, however we have to understand these events in the context of mutual warfare and not a blindsiding surprise attack.  The Gragn was not Pearl Harbor, it took generations of hostilities to build up to that point.

The gist of it..

Of course these Muslims regimes are scumbags.  Sometimes, we're complicit, including America, our European friends, and even the current Ethiopian regime.  Pointing the finger without washing our hands is not going to  work very well. Lets take out ALL the trash, at home and abroad, you feel me?

Prayer beads make more waves than drone strikes and surgical military strikes, so lets keep it up in the faith.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Are you done badmouthing your own church yet, Habte? I can wait, just as I'll apparently have to keep waiting for you to grasp the point of the post you just responded to, because it certainly wasn't whether or not the EOTC has ever been a "Crusading church", or whether or not Gragn's forces (why "the" Gragn? We're not speaking Amarignglish, so there's no need put an article in there) were motivated by economics or whatever.

Of course all garbage stinks no matter where it's from, but this particular thread is about Islamic garbage (like the video in the OP), which as far as I am concerned is just a long way of saying "Islam", since Islam is garbage. From Satan's mouth to Muhammad's ears.

 History is history brother, I just call the cards where they fall. 
Quote
War with Adal (1443-1445)
Conquest of territory on the Red Sea; war with Mitsiwa (1448-1449)
War with Adal; loss of Yifat (1508)
War with Adal; loss of border regions (1527-1528)
War with Adal; since 1541 Abyssinia supported by a Portuguese force (1535-1543)

Muslim-Christian relations soured during the reign of the aggressive Negus Yeshaq (ruled 1414-29). Forces of his rapidly expanding empire descended from the highlands to despoil Muslim settlements in the valley east of the ancient city of Harer. Having branded the Muslims "enemies of the Lord," Yeshaq invaded the Muslim Kingdom of Ifat in 1415. He crushed the armies of Ifat and put to flight in the wastes along the Gulf of Tadjoura (in present-day Djibouti) Ifat's king Saad ad Din. Yeshaq followed Saad ad Din to the island off the coast of Saylac (which still bears his name), where the Muslim king was killed. Yeshaq compelled the Muslims to offer tribute, and also ordered his singers to compose a gloating hymn of thanksgiving for his victory. In the hymn's lyrics, the word Somali appears for the first time in written record.
http://ethiopiamilitary.com/ethio-somalia-war/

Sorry for the pour source but I'm not about to transcribe whole pages out of the history books on my shelf, besides you probably wouldn't hear me anyways..

Sorry for being honest,but I'm not fond of hiding behind idealism.

stay blessed,


« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 07:32:17 PM by Hiwot » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2012, 07:32:42 PM »

^^  Habte, this must be one of those things that go along with people calling themselves after the Ethiopian Historical tradition of calling their royal princes’ Ras’ we are now encountering plenty of self proclaimed’ prince/ Ras john doe” running around claiming some kind of connection to Ethiopia. by the same token here you are calling yourself ‘ the history Nazi’ while referring to your supposed Exacting knowledge of Ethiopia’s history, well I must say to that kind of grandiose delusion, “ you wish!” Only recently your Ethiopian history knowledge and your apologetics for not ruffling the feathers of Islam said “Ethiopia has ALWAYS maintained good relationships not just with her domestic Muslims, but the Muslim world in general.” now when that goes debunked and your ‘tiraz neteq eweqet/ a knowledge based on solely A single page that ignores the context found from the entirety of volumes of books that pertain to the full story / exposed , you are now all of a sudden doing a 180 turn and saying the Ethiopian Church was a crusading Church attacking the peaceful islamists who letter on had to fight back in an all out war under the leadership of ‘Gragn Mohammed” the purpose of this new twist in your analysis making it and its ideology equal to/ similar to that of the ideology of Islamic invasion of the non Muslim therefore once again asking us to not ruffle the feathers of Islam. After all with this argument you want us to conclude that, Christianity is the same in the essence of its ideology as Islam. Now the church and the Monarchs are different, although the Church and State were closely tied the monarchs like the system of monarchy are flowed. Even so the ideology of the Church and the Ideology of Islam are quite different, but since you want us to dwell in the other stuff and not on the real essence of the ideology let’s talk about the political history of the Christian Kingdom of Ethiopia and its territorial disputes.


Now first of all the Adal regions that were the territory of Ethiopia, when the Muslim traders started to infiltrate Ethiopia and settle they started to form a Muslim sultanate, that was rapidly expanding by the aide of the Turks and Arabs who were the main traders and political powers in the region and these started to claim land and territory of the Christian Kingdom whose head quarters were in shewa . the adal sultanates not only wanted to continue to expand but also wanted the main strong government overtaken thus they helped every war lord they found to be in opposition to the Crown, they used the Islamic religion when they can and when that was not effective, they bought allegiances with money and promise of future lordship of the region the warlords coveted when the Christian kingdom was abolished. Like any Kingdom of that time securing its territory at went hand in hand with securing the ideology it followed, it also means coming in direct conflict with the sultanate’s ideology. Just like the different pagan ideologies have been conflicting with the Christian kingdom, the back and forth war of asserting territory and the right to rule was the paramount importance to the kingdom.


Second if you see the edict of war by the Christian Emperors when it comes to fighting not only Muslims but Christians that will seek to claim land away from them and overthrow their ‘God’ given right to rule over their own land , they declared war calling the enemy ‘the enemy of God’ Christian Ethiopia’s wars have always had these three motivators at heart “Defense of Faith, Family and Country”. The expanding adal sultanate with its raids and the raids it funded, that managed to capture land here and there from the Ethiopian kingdom was a direct initiator of the war. The kingdom had no interest in capturing the land that was not historically it’s to claim, thus had every historical right to defend its territory from the expanding adal sultanates, who not only were they expanding on their own but aiding the rebellion of other warlords that seek to have their own regional leadership in the kingdom, therefore the Christian kingdom was increasingly coming to a perilous situation.
Crusade in the Middle East ….. Why was it necessary in the first place? Wasn’t it because those Muslims have waged war and took Christian territory? That Christians were forced to defend themselves with the constantly aggressive ideology that was moving the swipe all under its Islamic banner? Now what happened during the war and after was a sad, however it does not change the fact that the whole idea of the Crusade was initiated as self defense. That part of history must never be forgotten by the shadow of what later tragedies that followed.
You calling the war between Ethiopian Kingdom and the Adal sultanates as the action of a crusading Ethiopian Church just based on the usual banner of war in defense of territory that was theirs to defend and stopping the rebel aiding sultanates from supporting the enemies of the kingdom, your historical analysis that is out of context of historical time and reasoning of the time, leads me to believe you either are woefully ignorant of historical realities of those times, or simply once more want to run to the defense of the islamists at all costs including distortion of historical realities and the real motives behind historical actions. Either way it’s a shame.
Islam has one motive that motivates it; convert the world into the one umaha of Mohamed. The rest is cattle. What happened under Gragn was what was feared will happen in the Christian Kingdom the growing treat of the sultanates was felt long before the war as I have mentioned before, the attempt to stop it before the full blown aggression of the Islamist come to be a reality, was not successful. The eminent war was long expected by the Christian kingdom to come from the sultanates. They already had to defend themselves from the Turks in the north, the Turks and the Arabs were also aiding the Afar/ Adal sultanates on the south .However the lack of standing army made it impossible to guard territories as they are done now, back then the army is made out of militias under the kingdom who are mobilized only after the edict of war was declared.


As to the songs being sung by force in that article you mentioned gave me a good belly laugh, songs are always being sung before during and after every war in Ethiopia , depicting the event and the heroes etc. in this Ethiopia’s history is no different than the rest of the world. The historical chroniclers of the kingdom ofc had the tradition of documenting what was said and sung about the event in their chronicles. Just like in the bile we find what the women of Israel sung about their victory over the philistines by the hand of David and about his heroics. The Ethiopian King had no need to force anyone to sing for him, the victory was enough motivator to move the poets and vocalists to do their art that will seek to outshine one another in the Kingdom. This is still the tradition in Ethiopia, recording events in songs and poems.


Now Monarchy is neither fair governance, nor is it representative, it is inherently flowed, oppressive even. The Lord Himself warns Israel of this nature of having a king, a monarchy however history is set in motion. The Christian version of the Monarchy had both served and hurt the Church because of the nature of ‘the monarchy’ as a system of governance that holds the power of governing. Still when we give historical analysis it has to be done with the context of all events in that particular time, and the pervalent understanding and standards of political , social , cultural,and religious issues of the time.


Habte, I am very tired of you claiming to know of Ethiopian history, and in so far as it is used aide you to send your personal distortion of it, in defending the un-defendable. In comparing the incomparable. Stop doing this back flips you do with your historical data, you in fact claim to support a Monarchy, which I find incredibly ironic, with your claim of pacifism. But that’s up to you to dream about. I laugh when I hear the self appointed ‘ princes/ras’ who have named themselves as prince so and so loll Ras John doe, and they tell me about my history and my future reinvented and recast in their image and likeness. This is how deep those people monarchical dreams/ fantasies go. Ethiopians will tolerate such fantasy as long as it remains contained to the self agrandeosing individual’s wildest dreams.

I thank you very much for accusing My Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church as a Crusading Church, with the meaning of Crusaid being equal to jihadist ideology , I was not aware that the Church had such ambitions, now we will make sure we re-write history to fit your description of it. As we must have forgotten that part of our history was it not for you to remind us of it. But on the other hand if we do listen to every tall tales that are told by interest groups then the meaning of our very lives will merely be ‘a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing!’

I have a busy schedule coming up , I have nothing further to say to you. except perhaps to say that I am nauseated by the stink of this BS that has put on the fragance of detached historical analysis and christian piety chasing its tail to cover for Islam's inherent ideological agenda. personaly I have heard enough of your oppinion. you are entitled to keep it, just do not pretend to be an Ethiopian when you are not, do not pretend to know the history of Ethiopia when you obviously do not, find another appologetics for what you seek to do.



Peace.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 07:36:06 PM by Hiwot » Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2012, 07:49:42 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

^^  Habte, this must be one of those things that go along with people calling themselves after the Ethiopian Historical tradition of calling their royal princes’ Ras’ we are now encountering plenty of self proclaimed’ prince/ Ras john doe” running around claiming some kind of connection to Ethiopia. by the same token here you are calling yourself ‘ the history Nazi’ while referring to your supposed Exacting knowledge of Ethiopia’s history, well I must say to that kind of grandiose delusion, “ you wish!” Only recently your Ethiopian history knowledge and your apologetics for not ruffling the feathers of Islam said “Ethiopia has ALWAYS maintained good relationships not just with her domestic Muslims, but the Muslim world in general.” now when that goes debunked and your ‘tiraz neteq eweqet/ a knowledge based on solely A single page that ignores the context found from the entirety of volumes of books that pertain to the full story / exposed , you are now all of a sudden doing a 180 turn and saying the Ethiopian Church was a crusading Church attacking the peaceful islamists who letter on had to fight back in an all out war under the leadership of ‘Gragn Mohammed” the purpose of this new twist in your analysis making it and its ideology equal to/ similar to that of the ideology of Islamic invasion of the non Muslim therefore once again asking us to not ruffle the feathers of Islam. After all with this argument you want us to conclude that, Christianity is the same in the essence of its ideology as Islam. Now the church and the Monarchs are different, although the Church and State were closely tied the monarchs like the system of monarchy are flowed. Even so the ideology of the Church and the Ideology of Islam are quite different, but since you want us to dwell in the other stuff and not on the real essence of the ideology let’s talk about the political history of the Christian Kingdom of Ethiopia and its territorial disputes.


Now first of all the Adal regions that were the territory of Ethiopia, when the Muslim traders started to infiltrate Ethiopia and settle they started to form a Muslim sultanate, that was rapidly expanding by the aide of the Turks and Arabs who were the main traders and political powers in the region and these started to claim land and territory of the Christian Kingdom whose head quarters were in shewa . the adal sultanates not only wanted to continue to expand but also wanted the main strong government overtaken thus they helped every war lord they found to be in opposition to the Crown, they used the Islamic religion when they can and when that was not effective, they bought allegiances with money and promise of future lordship of the region the warlords coveted when the Christian kingdom was abolished. Like any Kingdom of that time securing its territory at went hand in hand with securing the ideology it followed, it also means coming in direct conflict with the sultanate’s ideology. Just like the different pagan ideologies have been conflicting with the Christian kingdom, the back and forth war of asserting territory and the right to rule was the paramount importance to the kingdom.


Second if you see the edict of war by the Christian Emperors when it comes to fighting not only Muslims but Christians that will seek to claim land away from them and overthrow their ‘God’ given right to rule over their own land , they declared war calling the enemy ‘the enemy of God’ Christian Ethiopia’s wars have always had these three motivators at heart “Defense of Faith, Family and Country”. The expanding adal sultanate with its raids and the raids it funded, that managed to capture land here and there from the Ethiopian kingdom was a direct initiator of the war. The kingdom had no interest in capturing the land that was not historically it’s to claim, thus had every historical right to defend its territory from the expanding adal sultanates, who not only were they expanding on their own but aiding the rebellion of other warlords that seek to have their own regional leadership in the kingdom, therefore the Christian kingdom was increasingly coming to a perilous situation.
Crusade in the Middle East ….. Why was it necessary in the first place? Wasn’t it because those Muslims have waged war and took Christian territory? That Christians were forced to defend themselves with the constantly aggressive ideology that was moving the swipe all under its Islamic banner? Now what happened during the war and after was a sad, however it does not change the fact that the whole idea of the Crusade was initiated as self defense. That part of history must never be forgotten by the shadow of what later tragedies that followed.
You calling the war between Ethiopian Kingdom and the Adal sultanates as the action of a crusading Ethiopian Church just based on the usual banner of war in defense of territory that was theirs to defend and stopping the rebel aiding sultanates from supporting the enemies of the kingdom, your historical analysis that is out of context of historical time and reasoning of the time, leads me to believe you either are woefully ignorant of historical realities of those times, or simply once more want to run to the defense of the islamists at all costs including distortion of historical realities and the real motives behind historical actions. Either way it’s a shame.
Islam has one motive that motivates it; convert the world into the one umaha of Mohamed. The rest is cattle. What happened under Gragn was what was feared will happen in the Christian Kingdom the growing treat of the sultanates was felt long before the war as I have mentioned before, the attempt to stop it before the full blown aggression of the Islamist come to be a reality, was not successful. The eminent war was long expected by the Christian kingdom to come from the sultanates. They already had to defend themselves from the Turks in the north, the Turks and the Arabs were also aiding the Afar/ Adal sultanates on the south .However the lack of standing army made it impossible to guard territories as they are done now, back then the army is made out of militias under the kingdom who are mobilized only after the edict of war was declared.


As to the songs being sung by force in that article you mentioned gave me a good belly laugh, songs are always being sung before during and after every war in Ethiopia , depicting the event and the heroes etc. in this Ethiopia’s history is no different than the rest of the world. The historical chroniclers of the kingdom ofc had the tradition of documenting what was said and sung about the event in their chronicles. Just like in the bile we find what the women of Israel sung about their victory over the philistines by the hand of David and about his heroics. The Ethiopian King had no need to force anyone to sing for him, the victory was enough motivator to move the poets and vocalists to do their art that will seek to outshine one another in the Kingdom. This is still the tradition in Ethiopia, recording events in songs and poems.


Now Monarchy is neither fair governance, nor is it representative, it is inherently flowed, oppressive even. The Lord Himself warns Israel of this nature of having a king, a monarchy however history is set in motion. The Christian version of the Monarchy had both served and hurt the Church because of the nature of ‘the monarchy’ as a system of governance that holds the power of governing. Still when we give historical analysis it has to be done with the context of all events in that particular time, and the pervalent understanding and standards of political , social , cultural,and religious issues of the time.


Habte, I am very tired of you claiming to know of Ethiopian history, and in so far as it is used aide you to send your personal distortion of it, in defending the un-defendable. In comparing the incomparable. Stop doing this back flips you do with your historical data, you in fact claim to support a Monarchy, which I find incredibly ironic, with your claim of pacifism. But that’s up to you to dream about. I laugh when I hear the self appointed ‘ princes/ras’ who have named themselves as prince so and so loll Ras John doe, and they tell me about my history and my future reinvented and recast in their image and likeness. This is how deep those people monarchical dreams/ fantasies go. Ethiopians will tolerate such fantasy as long as it remains contained to the self agrandeosing individual’s wildest dreams.

I thank you very much for accusing My Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church as a Crusading Church, with the meaning of Crusaid being equal to jihadist ideology , I was not aware that the Church had such ambitions, now we will make sure we re-write history to fit your description of it. As we must have forgotten that part of our history was it not for you to remind us of it. But on the other hand if we do listen to every tall tales that are told by interest groups then the meaning of our very lives will merely be ‘a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing!’

I have a busy schedule coming up , I have nothing further to say to you. except perhaps to say that I am nauseated by the stink of this BS that has put on the fragance of detached historical analysis and christian piety chasing its tail to cover for Islam's inherent ideological agenda. personaly I have heard enough of your oppinion. you are entitled to keep it, just do not pretend to be an Ethiopian when you are not, do not pretend to know the history of Ethiopia when you obviously do not, find another appologetics for what you seek to do.



Peace.


A) I've have been coming to realization that I had mistakenly accepted a common historical narrative that Ethiopia maintained relative peace with Islam, both domestic and neighbors, when of course I am well versed in the thousand years of warfare that existed between the two, and so I retract that error humbly, and apologize for any misconceptions folks might have picked up from it, and thank you for the correction.

B) From my perspective in regards to the hundred year war with Adal, Emperor Yeshaq drew first blood in his quest for loot. Further, Crusading Church is part of our history, it doesn't mean the Muslims were innocent just as the Muslims weren't innocent when the Latins went on Crusade, but none-the-less, Crusading is very much part of our historical reality.  What else can we call the expansion and settlement of the Church into new lands, conquering new peoples, exacting new taxes and tithes?  When the Church  becomes a colonial land-owner in territories previously not controlled by the Crown, what shall we call this then?  It was not the Crown who managed these settlements, it was the Church.  The Church owned slaves and the Church owned the lands and the Church collected the taxes.  I'm not exactly happy about it myself, but that is the problem with history, whether we like it or accept it, it already has happened and all we can do is reflect. You accuse me of idealism and historical inaccuracy and yet time and time again it seems to be you that disregards aspects of Ethiopian history which you don't seem to like in favor your idealist narrative.  Me, I just call the cards where they fall.

C) Whether you'd like to admit it or not, this is OUR Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, last time I checked your not the Metropolitan Bishop or the Patriarch and so you don't have the authority to excommunicate or disregard my baptized, functioning membership.  Again, we can disagree and debate history and politics, but please stop disrespecting me as if I was dirt and not a mutual member of the Body of Christ, it is honestly starting to hurt my feelings a bit.  I dedicate a lot of work day to day for this Church, I have spent countless hours since August helping the clergy retool and design or curriculum, I attend countless committee meetings and conferences, I am always involved at all our youth functions, there isn't much more of my life I can give to "your" Church, so if its not mine as well, I guess I've been wasting my time, but the hundreds of members at my local parish might disagree with you Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2012, 07:52:51 PM »

Boy am I regretting ever having typed the name "Ethiopia" in that post. I figured it would be obvious as to why I brought up that example by reading the questions that followed it, but I guess not. Nevertheless, this thread is not about Ethiopia, or racism in America, or anything else that has occupied the last few pages. Enough already. I'm sorry to have played any part in this. Let's try to get back on topic, please.
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« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2012, 08:32:42 PM »

Habte
I have the right to call the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church MY church; did I say it was not your church? What I have said was You are not ETHIOPIAN! There is a big difference!  Stop twisting my words! and do not pontificate over a none existing argument as usual!

The disdain I have seen coming from you towards Ethiopia and Ethiopians is enough for me to understand your sentiment. you practicaly protray yourself as the enlightner of Ethiopians where you seem to know thier history better than them. your so called historical analysis is full of bias, even as you pretend to be un biased, the initial presence of the sultanates and their expansive ideology and their plot was the initiator of the war, not so much as you claim it to be. Ethiopia has welcomed Muslim traders when they were behaving peacefully when they start to plot and expand then the threat had to be contained. Simple as that. You seem to want to gloss over that fact, the territorial right of Ethiopia on the land that was hers and what it takes to maintain and protect it.

As to the Church owning lands, yes it did, it was a medieval era. However the land was Ethiopian Land, not Sudan, not Kenyan or any one's. You see the analysis of standards of historical time at play? some of the monarchs have hurt the church by imposing their will over her principles, however even in those times of hardship, the church was the light of unity, dignity, patriotic sense of protecting what’s the people's God given right to protect, it was the Church that was the force behind the law that forbade the selling of Slaves, and it was the church that advocated for the humane treatment of those captured from rebellion war against the Crown. The Church had a role to play given the time's historical reality. What you seem to imply as crusading Church is a fabrication by the standards of what the Crusade meant later on, however if Crusading means defending what is yours then yes the church has taught from her pulpit to never accept subjugation to anyone who would force Ethiopian Orthodox to lose their Faith, and their rightful Land.


Again, you are not Ethiopian, Stop pretending to be. You can speak as Orthodox Faithful. But Ethiopian you are not. As I would not claim to be Egyptian, Armenian, Indian, Syrian, just because I have the same baptism as they do. When we are talking about Historical issues, from what perspective we are speaking must be made very clear. You are an American, who is baptized into Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.

Your analysis of Ethiopian History especially the conclusions you draw from it has been wrong before, and is wrong now, plain and simple. didn’t you say you had a knowledge of Ethiopian history that surpasses most Ethiopian graduates of History themselves , in that you had a degree with honors in Ethiopian History, what happened to your surety of the claim of knowing history left and right? I am tired of you confusing historical facts when it suits you. So I will tell it like it is. You can choose on this occasion to look like the unbiased analyst, suit yourself. I have said what needed to be said.

 Peace!
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« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2012, 08:35:53 PM »

Boy am I regretting ever having typed the name "Ethiopia" in that post. I figured it would be obvious as to why I brought up that example by reading the questions that followed it, but I guess not. Nevertheless, this thread is not about Ethiopia, or racism in America, or anything else that has occupied the last few pages. Enough already. I'm sorry to have played any part in this. Let's try to get back on topic, please.

I am sorry dzheremi, I understood your reference and the need for it, the subsequent distortion of facts to have them fit into a formed idea of some really irritated me. when I saw it today. I apologise and please continue in the topic.
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2012, 08:38:46 PM »

People are wayyy too uptight about their ethnic/national background.
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« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2012, 08:43:13 PM »

 
People are wayyy too uptight about their ethnic/national background.

 Grin the Ethiopian eats, breaths and drinks patriotism when it comes to history and country.

It must not be confused with The Church's Catholicity  Smiley
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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2012, 08:48:43 PM »

People are wayyy too uptight about their ethnic/national background.


'Merica
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« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2012, 08:50:56 PM »

♪ ♫ America... America... God shed His grace on theeeeeeee1!!111!!!1
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« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2012, 08:53:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Your analysis of Ethiopian History especially the conclusions you draw from it has been wrong before, and is wrong now, plain and simple. didn’t you say you had a knowledge of Ethiopian history that surpasses most Ethiopian graduates of History themselves , in that you had a degree with honors in Ethiopian History, what happened to your surety of the claim of knowing history left and right? I am tired of you confusing historical facts when it suits you. So I will tell it like it is. You can choose on this occasion to look like the unbiased analyst, suit yourself. I have said what needed to be said.

 Peace!


No, I said no such things, but you always invent what ever suits your purpose, so I try not to even talk with you anymore.  Like I said, we can dispute the facts and interpretations of history, but the difference is I approach you as a sister who I may learn from (and have already learned much from by the way Wink ) and who I may also sometimes correct, where as you seem to think you are the only one who knows anything about anything and everything..  You should stop walking around like your the Ethiopian Bishop of OC.net, the melodramatic antagonism is getting cliched really Wink

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Of these things be reminding them, conjuring them in the Lord's sight not to engage in controversy for nothing useful, to the upsetting of those who are hearing.  Endeavor to present yourselves to God qualified, an unashamed worker, correctly cutting the word of truth.  Yet from profane prattlings stand aloof, for they will be progressing to more irreverence, and their word will spread as gangrene.. Now from stupid and crude questionings refuse, being aware that they are generating fightings.
2 Timothy 2:15-22

Quote
Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain. A sectarian man, after one and a second admonition, refuse..
Titus 3:10

My sister, when it comes to theology we are always in full agreement and mutual fellowship, yet clearly we diverge on politics and history which are perfectly debatable subjects, that being said, I am as guilty as anyone of breaking the Apostle's warnings, I repent of these silly arguments, and pray the Lord heal this nonsensical rift between brothers and sisters of this one unison Body of Christ.  

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2012, 09:05:59 PM »

^^   laugh  the fog of fake piety, and of your pontification that follows it aside, I stand by what I said. you may reread it , the next time you forget it. police


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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2012, 09:08:08 PM »

Viva America the Home of the Free BCAUSE of the Brave!!!!    Smiley
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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2012, 09:21:16 PM »

After watching this video it has shown me what I have always said people are just people. I think as soon as we can look past the difference color race what have you it all comes down to we just want a good job a way to feed are loved ones and to just live a happy life.
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« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2012, 09:23:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
^^   laugh  the fog of fake piety, and of your pontification that follows it aside, I stand by what I said. you may reread it , the next time you forget it. police




Whatever you say sister, but you sure love to laugh a lot at your brothers and sisters when they try to apologize or repent to you is everything really just a joke to you? I will indeed reflect on what I have posted, and I pray you do as well Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2012, 09:43:52 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
^^   laugh  the fog of fake piety, and of your pontification that follows it aside, I stand by what I said. you may reread it , the next time you forget it. police




Whatever you say sister, but you sure love to laugh a lot at your brothers and sisters when they try to apologize or repent to you is everything really just a joke to you? I will indeed reflect on what I have posted, and I pray you do as well Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

you see I have been expecting you to appear like you do now, like someone who apologised sincerely and got laughed at, but look at your post, it was seasoned with Scripture yes true, and good. but it was seasoned with insults as well, whom did you accuse of acting like the Ethiopian Bishop of OC.Net? and Why would you do that pray tell, is it because I said contradicted you and indeed vehemently opposed you and the troops you called in to support your Rastafarian view,  when you called the emperor Jah Rastafari I, and tried to pass it as acceptable orthodox terminology? is it because I have tried to correct some christological statements you were making that contradicted with the  integrity of the Faith's interpretation of the Christology? if that is the cause then I will proudly wear the taunt as a badge of honor, even when I must say, I am but a sinful woman whose Faith is Orthodox, and I will not see it tainted by the garbage ideology of this world while I am alive still to watch it.


oh as to not claiming that most Ethiopian historians did not have your qualifications here are your exact words : " I have a BA with honors in specifically Ethiopian History, something which even 30% of college history professors in Ethiopia don't even have" these are not my words, nor the implication of them.

I will also tremble with fear over the single drop of tears of the saints that are being persecuted by the islamists all over the world. their single drop of blood is the lake of fire that burns my heart. I will not keep quite and be tide with false humility and false piety when it is time to speak against injustice. nor will I allow such attempts to be done in the name of what I identify with as mine.

so your "apology" if there is ever one with sincerity , then I will accept it, as repentace is to be resolved  to no longer do whatever wrong one has done. However, there was none and the wrong you keep doing against justice,I see you repeating it, instead of repenting of it. so I call it like I see it. My Faith is my strength not my weakness do not perceive it as one. It enables me to cut through the BS and see the truth clearly.

Peace.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 10:00:14 PM by Hiwot » Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2012, 10:02:06 PM »

♪ ♫ America... America... God shed His grace on theeeeeeee1!!111!!!1

I see your America, and raise you what is possibly the most beautiful anthem ever written, the only one composed by a great composer of the Classical era, and the only one to be used in one of his string quartets: http://youtu.be/7tHc9xWhFH4
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« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2012, 10:07:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

^^   laugh  the fog of fake piety, and of your pontification that follows it aside, I stand by what I said. you may reread it , the next time you forget it. police




Whatever you say sister, but you sure love to laugh a lot at your brothers and sisters when they try to apologize or repent to you is everything really just a joke to you? I will indeed reflect on what I have posted, and I pray you do as well Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

you see I have been expecting you to appear like you do now, like someone who apologised sincerely and got laughed at, but look at your post, it was seasoned with Scripture yes true, and good. but it was seasoned with insults as well, whom did you accuse of acting like the Ethiopian Bishop of OC.Net? and Why would you do that pray tell, is it because I said contradicted you and indeed vehemently opposed you and the troops you called in to support your Rastafarian view,  when you called the emperor Jah Rastafari I, and tried to pass it as acceptable orthodox terminology? is it because I have tried to correct some christological statements you were making that contradicted with the  integrity of the Faith's interpretation of the Christology? if that is the cause then I will proudly wear the taunt as a badge of honor, even when I must say, I am but a sinful woman whose Faith is Orthodox, and I will not see it tainted by the garbage ideology of this world while I am alive still to watch it.


oh as to not claiming that most Ethiopian historians did not have your qualifications here are your exact words : " I have a BA with honors in specifically Ethiopian History, something which even 30% of college history professors in Ethiopia don't even have" these are not my words, nor the implication of them.

I will also tremble with fear over the single drop of tears of the saints that are being persecuted by the islamists all over the world. their single drop of blood is the lake of fire that burns my heart. I will not keep quite and be tide with false humility and false piety when it is time to speak against injustice. nor will I allow such attempts to be done in the name of what I identify with as mine.

so your "apology" if there is ever one with sincerity , then I will accept it, as repentace is to be resolved  to no longer do whatever wrong one has done. However, there was none and the wrong you keep doing against justice,I see you repeating it, instead of repenting of it. so I call it like I see it. My Faith is my strength not my weakness do not perceive it as one. It enables me to cut through the BS and see the truth clearly.

Peace.

Do you normally go for the jugular when folks express a vulnerability in apologizing or do you just save that chip on your shoulder for me? I don't play around, the internet is not some imaginary world, we are all real people behind these monitors, and you ma'am, have so continually scorned me that I honestly give up. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2012, 10:17:26 PM »

♪ ♫ America... America... God shed His grace on theeeeeeee1!!111!!!1

I see your America, and raise you what is possibly the most beautiful anthem ever written, the only one composed by a great composer of the Classical era, and the only one to be used in one of his string quartets: http://youtu.be/7tHc9xWhFH4

Germany's anthem is beautiful.....politics aside, I enjoy many national anthems but I really dislike ours (USA).  
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 10:17:51 PM by Hamartolos » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2012, 10:40:02 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

^^   laugh  the fog of fake piety, and of your pontification that follows it aside, I stand by what I said. you may reread it , the next time you forget it. police




Whatever you say sister, but you sure love to laugh a lot at your brothers and sisters when they try to apologize or repent to you is everything really just a joke to you? I will indeed reflect on what I have posted, and I pray you do as well Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

you see I have been expecting you to appear like you do now, like someone who apologised sincerely and got laughed at, but look at your post, it was seasoned with Scripture yes true, and good. but it was seasoned with insults as well, whom did you accuse of acting like the Ethiopian Bishop of OC.Net? and Why would you do that pray tell, is it because I said contradicted you and indeed vehemently opposed you and the troops you called in to support your Rastafarian view,  when you called the emperor Jah Rastafari I, and tried to pass it as acceptable orthodox terminology? is it because I have tried to correct some christological statements you were making that contradicted with the  integrity of the Faith's interpretation of the Christology? if that is the cause then I will proudly wear the taunt as a badge of honor, even when I must say, I am but a sinful woman whose Faith is Orthodox, and I will not see it tainted by the garbage ideology of this world while I am alive still to watch it.


oh as to not claiming that most Ethiopian historians did not have your qualifications here are your exact words : " I have a BA with honors in specifically Ethiopian History, something which even 30% of college history professors in Ethiopia don't even have" these are not my words, nor the implication of them.

I will also tremble with fear over the single drop of tears of the saints that are being persecuted by the islamists all over the world. their single drop of blood is the lake of fire that burns my heart. I will not keep quite and be tide with false humility and false piety when it is time to speak against injustice. nor will I allow such attempts to be done in the name of what I identify with as mine.

so your "apology" if there is ever one with sincerity , then I will accept it, as repentace is to be resolved  to no longer do whatever wrong one has done. However, there was none and the wrong you keep doing against justice,I see you repeating it, instead of repenting of it. so I call it like I see it. My Faith is my strength not my weakness do not perceive it as one. It enables me to cut through the BS and see the truth clearly.

Peace.

Do you normally go for the jugular when folks express a vulnerability in apologizing or do you just save that chip on your shoulder for me? I don't play around, the internet is not some imaginary world, we are all real people behind these monitors, and you ma'am, have so continually scorned me that I honestly give up. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie


The ideas I scorn, I will standby, the personal distress I might have caused you as a result of it my brother, I sincerly appologise for. I have nothing against you personaly. your ideas on the other hand and the manner you hold on to them have called for drastic measures of argument that the degree of importance of the topic at heart made them necessary. I find no pleasure in this.

Peace.

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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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