OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 21, 2014, 08:55:31 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite  (Read 2173 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« on: January 02, 2012, 06:21:38 AM »

Speaking of matters statistical... let us note and celebrate the increase of Western Rite clergy in the Russian Church Abroad.
 
One year ago there were about 3 or 4 WR priest monks in the States.   
 
In November 2010 Fr Anthony Bondi and his men were received into ROCA, about 12 of them.  In the following 12 months, in 2011, the number of WR priests in the States has leapt to close to 40.
 
One year ago this was unimaginable!   
 
“And the Lord added to their number....”
 
Hierom. Ambrose
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 7,043



« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2012, 06:42:49 AM »

Did something change in ROCOR or was this just a coincidence?
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 06:47:23 AM »

Did something change in ROCOR or was this just a coincidence?

Yes, things did change.  The new Metropolitan took Western Rite under his care and protection. He created a Western Rite Vicariate and appointed a vicar bishop for Western Rite.
Logged
SubdeaconDavid
"...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR)
Posts: 504


Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей


WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 06:55:42 AM »

Did something change in ROCOR or was this just a coincidence?

Yes, things did change.  The new Metropolitan took Western Rite under his care and protection. He created a Western Rite Vicariate and appointed a vicar bishop for Western Rite.
And yet this is a North American phenomenon.  In the United Kingdom there are two tiny former SPM missions and in Australia after more than a decade of SPM activity one mission remains in Hobart centred on the SPM monastery.  The future of the Russian Western Rite outside the US seems decidedly shaky. Zero priests in the UK and two septuagenarians in one state of Australia.  Without priests, what is their future?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 06:56:40 AM by SubdeaconDavid » Logged

Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2012, 07:04:01 AM »

Without priests, what is their future?

Hard to predict.  As of this moment I believe they number 4 parishioners.  Since this is the outcome of 12 years mission work in Australia the conclusion would seem to be that in Australia the time for WR has not yet arrived?
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 7,043



« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2012, 07:39:45 AM »

Did something change in ROCOR or was this just a coincidence?

Yes, things did change.  The new Metropolitan took Western Rite under his care and protection. He created a Western Rite Vicariate...

So the previous Metropolitans weren't so interested in or friendly with WR? Also, pardon my ignorance but what exactly is a "vicariate"? Is it like a non-geographic diocese with an auxiliary bishop?
Logged

SubdeaconDavid
"...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR)
Posts: 504


Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей


WWW
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2012, 09:00:33 AM »

Without priests, what is their future?

Hard to predict.  As of this moment I believe they number 4 parishioners.  Since this is the outcome of 12 years mission work in Australia the conclusion would seem to be that in Australia the time for WR has not yet arrived?
I think we need to see that Orthodoxy is important not the rite per se.  The success of the Russian Fraternity of St. Gregory in the US is clearly a blessing for the future of the Western-rite.  In Australia I suspect that the logical home for all Orthodox is in one rite which is the Byzantine-rite, using English as the language for those wanting this.

Logged

Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2012, 11:55:13 AM »

Did something change in ROCOR or was this just a coincidence?

Yes, things did change.  The new Metropolitan took Western Rite under his care and protection. He created a Western Rite Vicariate and appointed a vicar bishop for Western Rite.
And yet this is a North American phenomenon.  In the United Kingdom there are two tiny former SPM missions and in Australia after more than a decade of SPM activity one mission remains in Hobart centred on the SPM monastery.  The future of the Russian Western Rite outside the US seems decidedly shaky. Zero priests in the UK and two septuagenarians in one state of Australia.  Without priests, what is their future?
Alaska remained Orthodox under far harsher circumstances.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2012, 11:59:33 AM »

Did something change in ROCOR or was this just a coincidence?

Yes, things did change.  The new Metropolitan took Western Rite under his care and protection. He created a Western Rite Vicariate...

So the previous Metropolitans weren't so interested in or friendly with WR?
I don't know about ROCOR (which already had WRO), but the previous Metropolitans and most of the bishops were very hostile towards WRO in the OCA.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ICXCNIKA
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 661



« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2012, 12:54:25 PM »

Personally, I think a great deal of the difficulty is funding and access. I have never been to a WRO parish because none are in driving distance, which i consider to be an hour to an hour and a half away. But of course the likelihood of existing parishes becoming firmly rooted and new ones being planted is slim because there needs to be seed money and more fianancial support. I would love to see the creation of a trust for the WR that can be used to help all WR parishes regardless of Jurisdiction. 
Logged
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,446



WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2012, 01:17:05 PM »

Personally, I think a great deal of the difficulty is funding and access. I have never been to a WRO parish because none are in driving distance, which i consider to be an hour to an hour and a half away. But of course the likelihood of existing parishes becoming firmly rooted and new ones being planted is slim because there needs to be seed money and more fianancial support. I would love to see the creation of a trust for the WR that can be used to help all WR parishes regardless of Jurisdiction. 

Not a bad idea. I wouldn't mind stopping by a WR parish, if only to see the Rite in action, but I've had much the same problem as you with the travel distance. There is an AWRV parish here in Miami- but services and the website are in Spanish  laugh I'd be better off attending services in Slavonic, at least I'm familiar enough with the Byzantine Liturgy now that I'd have a good idea of what's going on.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
peteprint
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 706



« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2012, 01:53:59 PM »

At our recent liturgy for St. Nicholas feast day, besides the local MP parish priest, Fr. Ramon Merlos from Our Lady of Kazan, a WR priest participated ( Fr. Peter Guilianotti).  They have started a WR parish in north San Diego county called St. John the Wonderworker (named after St. John Maximovitch). It is included in this list of WR ROCOR parishes:

http://www.theorthodoxchurch.org/parishes.htm
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2012, 02:11:11 PM »

Personally, I think a great deal of the difficulty is funding and access. I have never been to a WRO parish because none are in driving distance, which i consider to be an hour to an hour and a half away. But of course the likelihood of existing parishes becoming firmly rooted and new ones being planted is slim because there needs to be seed money and more fianancial support. I would love to see the creation of a trust for the WR that can be used to help all WR parishes regardless of Jurisdiction. 
I wonder if the ACOBNCA can be induced to start one.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ICXCNIKA
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 661



« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2012, 02:32:17 PM »

Personally, I think a great deal of the difficulty is funding and access. I have never been to a WRO parish because none are in driving distance, which i consider to be an hour to an hour and a half away. But of course the likelihood of existing parishes becoming firmly rooted and new ones being planted is slim because there needs to be seed money and more fianancial support. I would love to see the creation of a trust for the WR that can be used to help all WR parishes regardless of Jurisdiction. 
I wonder if the ACOBNCA can be induced to start one.

I wouldn't mind making a meager donation but as of right now how does one figure out who to donate to as there are WRO in two distinct jurisdictions and not knowing where the greatest need is.
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,667


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2012, 01:38:34 PM »

I think it doesn't help matters when folks like Met. Ware stating that WRO is like "the U word" but in reverse.

There are alot of folks who are very influential in Orthodoxy that tries to push it down. I do believe that they are doing it in the right heart attitude, but it is still wrong Smiley

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 7,043



« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2012, 03:46:09 AM »

I think it doesn't help matters when folks like Met. Ware stating that WRO is like "the U word" but in reverse.

What's wrong with statements like that? I could agree with that but then again I don't find Easten Catholicism anyhow more negative phenomenon than Latin Catholicism or other heterodox denominations.
Logged

primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,667


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2012, 12:07:42 PM »

I think it doesn't help matters when folks like Met. Ware stating that WRO is like "the U word" but in reverse.

What's wrong with statements like that? I could agree with that but then again I don't find Easten Catholicism anyhow more negative phenomenon than Latin Catholicism or other heterodox denominations.
The problem is that it was a negative statement. Met. Ware has gone on record saying that Western Rite is divisive and is not needed.

Quote

For more info.
PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,267

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2012, 09:34:16 PM »

To be fair, Met. Ware made clear he was only speaking about the situation in Britain and said, "I am not qualified to express an opinion about America." Indeed, I believe the situations are quite different.

And his impressions on what the "Anglican Rite" are, aren't really that accurate. It's much, much more than the "Anglican Rite" with a Byzantine epiclesis. It is, more accurately, the ancient Roman Rite with certain interpolations from the Scottish/American liturgical tradition interwoven with it. They are virtually identical, even down to the rubrics, the Rite of St. Tikhon is just a bit longer and more verbose/poetic. And, while St. Tikhon himself likely didn't "vet" the 1892 BCP, the Holy Russian Synod most certainly did.
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,667


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2012, 11:36:02 AM »

To be fair, Met. Ware made clear he was only speaking about the situation in Britain and said, "I am not qualified to express an opinion about America." Indeed, I believe the situations are quite different.

And his impressions on what the "Anglican Rite" are, aren't really that accurate. It's much, much more than the "Anglican Rite" with a Byzantine epiclesis. It is, more accurately, the ancient Roman Rite with certain interpolations from the Scottish/American liturgical tradition interwoven with it. They are virtually identical, even down to the rubrics, the Rite of St. Tikhon is just a bit longer and more verbose/poetic. And, while St. Tikhon himself likely didn't "vet" the 1892 BCP, the Holy Russian Synod most certainly did.
I understand that Met. Ware was speaking about England and how the WR would be divisive there but it can be taken as a criticism of the entire rite. Im not the only one who thinks so.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,267

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2012, 12:28:46 PM »

It can be, yes. But it shouldn't be.
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,667


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2012, 12:29:23 PM »

It can be, yes. But it shouldn't be.
Very true.
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Caelestinus
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 91


« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2012, 03:09:30 PM »

I would love to see the creation of a trust for the WR that can be used to help all WR parishes regardless of Jurisdiction. 

That's true!


By the way, have ýou ever asked yourselves, why there is no orthodox WR-parish in Germany?
Logged
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,542


« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2012, 03:50:31 PM »

By the way, have ýou ever asked yourselves, why there is no orthodox WR-parish in Germany?

AFAIK there is one 'biritual' Priest who smetimes serves St. Gregory Liturgy (in Church Slavonic).
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2012, 04:13:16 PM »

I would love to see the creation of a trust for the WR that can be used to help all WR parishes regardless of Jurisdiction. 

That's true!


By the way, have ýou ever asked yourselves, why there is no orthodox WR-parish in Germany?
The Nazis eliminated the few that were there, IIRC.  They had trouble reorganizing after WWII.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Caelestinus
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 91


« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2012, 04:20:20 PM »

By the way, have ýou ever asked yourselves, why there is no orthodox WR-parish in Germany?

AFAIK there is one 'biritual' Priest who smetimes serves St. Gregory Liturgy (in Church Slavonic).

Where exactly?
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2012, 04:23:35 PM »

Are you talking about Otto Skorzeny and the Rattenlinien?  I don't recall the Nazis ever really regrouping after WWII.

I would love to see the creation of a trust for the WR that can be used to help all WR parishes regardless of Jurisdiction. 

That's true!


By the way, have ýou ever asked yourselves, why there is no orthodox WR-parish in Germany?
The Nazis eliminated the few that were there, IIRC.  They had trouble reorganizing after WWII.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Caelestinus
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 91


« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2012, 04:26:15 PM »

By the way, have ýou ever asked yourselves, why there is no orthodox WR-parish in Germany?

AFAIK there is one 'biritual' Priest who smetimes serves St. Gregory Liturgy (in Church Slavonic).

Where exactly?

I don't know, from where you have your information..could you be a bit more precise?


As far as I know (I am from Germany), there was a WR-parish in Hamburg some 20 years ago (ounder the gudiance of a former free old-catholic priest and under the episkope of ROCA). Now there are following the Byzantine Rite.

Orthodox Christianity is in my country still matter of 'Ausländer-Seelsorge' (foreigners pastoring)..in no other country it is so difficult to enter into, as a convert stated out.
Logged
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,542


« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2012, 04:36:17 PM »

Where exactly?

Our poster Michał met him. All I know he is under Archbishop Theophanes.


As far as I know (I am from Germany), there was a WR-parish in Hamburg some 20 years ago (ounder the gudiance of a former free old-catholic priest and under the episkope of ROCA). Now there are following the Byzantine Rite.

My version of the story is that it had been under the PAOC until it was transferred to the MP. On the other hand it does not mention the WRO at all but I've heard from other sources that it was used there.

http://www.deutsch-orthodox.de/unsere-kirche/
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 04:39:15 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
Caelestinus
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 91


« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2012, 04:44:03 PM »

Where exactly?

Our poster Michał met him. All I know he is under Archbishop Theophanes.


As far as I know (I am from Germany), there was a WR-parish in Hamburg some 20 years ago (ounder the gudiance of a former free old-catholic priest and under the episkope of ROCA). Now there are following the Byzantine Rite.

My version of the story is that it had been under the PAOC until it was transferred to the MP. On the other hand it does not mention the WRO at all but I've heard from other sources that it was used there.

http://www.deutsch-orthodox.de/unsere-kirche/

Yes, exactly. MP, not ROCA. PAOC is the abbrev. for the Polish Orthodox Church?
Logged
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,542


« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2012, 04:44:50 PM »

PAOC is the abbrev. for the Polish Orthodox Church?

Yes.
Logged
Caelestinus
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 91


« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2012, 04:58:41 PM »

But why is 'Western Rite' so much a phenomena of North America or the Anglophone countries?


For Germany I think, because we still have no religious freedom (on the paper, yes indeed), but in fact all is dominated by the two big 'Volkskirchen' (RCC and the Protestant Church), both financally strong, but spiritual empty. But GB also have the CoE and there are numerous orther denominations (even indigenious orthodox and 'oriental-orthodox').

Is it, because, U.S. citizens care more about religious affairs?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 04:59:07 PM by Caelestinus » Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,958



« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2012, 05:33:57 PM »

My impression is that the two big churches in Germany are only administrating funerals and, to some degree, weddings. The real religious life is in Islam (we have 5 million Muslims) and in Christianity, in independent Protestant churches (Freikirchen) and well as Roman Catholic movimenti and FSSPX (strongly growing in Germany).

Orthodox Churches often are full, but we are still in the beginning of overcoming the ethnic character of our parishes, maybe like it was 50 years ago in the US.
Logged
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,542


« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2012, 05:49:11 PM »

Two big... You mean Russians and Romanians?
Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,958



« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2012, 04:20:30 PM »

Two big... You mean Russians and Romanians?
No, I meant Roman Catholics and Lutherans.

The Orthodox have different kinds of problems, and it does seem to me that Constantinople is the biggest in Germany.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.114 seconds with 61 queries.