Author Topic: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite  (Read 2373 times)

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Speaking of matters statistical... let us note and celebrate the increase of Western Rite clergy in the Russian Church Abroad.
 
One year ago there were about 3 or 4 WR priest monks in the States.   
 
In November 2010 Fr Anthony Bondi and his men were received into ROCA, about 12 of them.  In the following 12 months, in 2011, the number of WR priests in the States has leapt to close to 40.
 
One year ago this was unimaginable!   
 
“And the Lord added to their number....”
 
Hierom. Ambrose

Offline Alpo

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2012, 06:42:49 AM »
Did something change in ROCOR or was this just a coincidence?

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 06:47:23 AM »
Did something change in ROCOR or was this just a coincidence?

Yes, things did change.  The new Metropolitan took Western Rite under his care and protection. He created a Western Rite Vicariate and appointed a vicar bishop for Western Rite.

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 06:55:42 AM »
Did something change in ROCOR or was this just a coincidence?

Yes, things did change.  The new Metropolitan took Western Rite under his care and protection. He created a Western Rite Vicariate and appointed a vicar bishop for Western Rite.
And yet this is a North American phenomenon.  In the United Kingdom there are two tiny former SPM missions and in Australia after more than a decade of SPM activity one mission remains in Hobart centred on the SPM monastery.  The future of the Russian Western Rite outside the US seems decidedly shaky. Zero priests in the UK and two septuagenarians in one state of Australia.  Without priests, what is their future?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 06:56:40 AM by SubdeaconDavid »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2012, 07:04:01 AM »
Without priests, what is their future?

Hard to predict.  As of this moment I believe they number 4 parishioners.  Since this is the outcome of 12 years mission work in Australia the conclusion would seem to be that in Australia the time for WR has not yet arrived?

Offline Alpo

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2012, 07:39:45 AM »
Did something change in ROCOR or was this just a coincidence?

Yes, things did change.  The new Metropolitan took Western Rite under his care and protection. He created a Western Rite Vicariate...

So the previous Metropolitans weren't so interested in or friendly with WR? Also, pardon my ignorance but what exactly is a "vicariate"? Is it like a non-geographic diocese with an auxiliary bishop?

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2012, 09:00:33 AM »
Without priests, what is their future?

Hard to predict.  As of this moment I believe they number 4 parishioners.  Since this is the outcome of 12 years mission work in Australia the conclusion would seem to be that in Australia the time for WR has not yet arrived?
I think we need to see that Orthodoxy is important not the rite per se.  The success of the Russian Fraternity of St. Gregory in the US is clearly a blessing for the future of the Western-rite.  In Australia I suspect that the logical home for all Orthodox is in one rite which is the Byzantine-rite, using English as the language for those wanting this.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2012, 11:55:13 AM »
Did something change in ROCOR or was this just a coincidence?

Yes, things did change.  The new Metropolitan took Western Rite under his care and protection. He created a Western Rite Vicariate and appointed a vicar bishop for Western Rite.
And yet this is a North American phenomenon.  In the United Kingdom there are two tiny former SPM missions and in Australia after more than a decade of SPM activity one mission remains in Hobart centred on the SPM monastery.  The future of the Russian Western Rite outside the US seems decidedly shaky. Zero priests in the UK and two septuagenarians in one state of Australia.  Without priests, what is their future?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2012, 11:59:33 AM »
Did something change in ROCOR or was this just a coincidence?

Yes, things did change.  The new Metropolitan took Western Rite under his care and protection. He created a Western Rite Vicariate...

So the previous Metropolitans weren't so interested in or friendly with WR?
I don't know about ROCOR (which already had WRO), but the previous Metropolitans and most of the bishops were very hostile towards WRO in the OCA.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2012, 12:54:25 PM »
Personally, I think a great deal of the difficulty is funding and access. I have never been to a WRO parish because none are in driving distance, which i consider to be an hour to an hour and a half away. But of course the likelihood of existing parishes becoming firmly rooted and new ones being planted is slim because there needs to be seed money and more fianancial support. I would love to see the creation of a trust for the WR that can be used to help all WR parishes regardless of Jurisdiction. 

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2012, 01:17:05 PM »
Personally, I think a great deal of the difficulty is funding and access. I have never been to a WRO parish because none are in driving distance, which i consider to be an hour to an hour and a half away. But of course the likelihood of existing parishes becoming firmly rooted and new ones being planted is slim because there needs to be seed money and more fianancial support. I would love to see the creation of a trust for the WR that can be used to help all WR parishes regardless of Jurisdiction. 

Not a bad idea. I wouldn't mind stopping by a WR parish, if only to see the Rite in action, but I've had much the same problem as you with the travel distance. There is an AWRV parish here in Miami- but services and the website are in Spanish  :laugh: I'd be better off attending services in Slavonic, at least I'm familiar enough with the Byzantine Liturgy now that I'd have a good idea of what's going on.
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Offline peteprint

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2012, 01:53:59 PM »
At our recent liturgy for St. Nicholas feast day, besides the local MP parish priest, Fr. Ramon Merlos from Our Lady of Kazan, a WR priest participated ( Fr. Peter Guilianotti).  They have started a WR parish in north San Diego county called St. John the Wonderworker (named after St. John Maximovitch). It is included in this list of WR ROCOR parishes:

http://www.theorthodoxchurch.org/parishes.htm

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2012, 02:11:11 PM »
Personally, I think a great deal of the difficulty is funding and access. I have never been to a WRO parish because none are in driving distance, which i consider to be an hour to an hour and a half away. But of course the likelihood of existing parishes becoming firmly rooted and new ones being planted is slim because there needs to be seed money and more fianancial support. I would love to see the creation of a trust for the WR that can be used to help all WR parishes regardless of Jurisdiction. 
I wonder if the ACOBNCA can be induced to start one.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2012, 02:32:17 PM »
Personally, I think a great deal of the difficulty is funding and access. I have never been to a WRO parish because none are in driving distance, which i consider to be an hour to an hour and a half away. But of course the likelihood of existing parishes becoming firmly rooted and new ones being planted is slim because there needs to be seed money and more fianancial support. I would love to see the creation of a trust for the WR that can be used to help all WR parishes regardless of Jurisdiction. 
I wonder if the ACOBNCA can be induced to start one.

I wouldn't mind making a meager donation but as of right now how does one figure out who to donate to as there are WRO in two distinct jurisdictions and not knowing where the greatest need is.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2012, 01:38:34 PM »
I think it doesn't help matters when folks like Met. Ware stating that WRO is like "the U word" but in reverse.

There are alot of folks who are very influential in Orthodoxy that tries to push it down. I do believe that they are doing it in the right heart attitude, but it is still wrong :)

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Offline Alpo

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2012, 03:46:09 AM »
I think it doesn't help matters when folks like Met. Ware stating that WRO is like "the U word" but in reverse.

What's wrong with statements like that? I could agree with that but then again I don't find Easten Catholicism anyhow more negative phenomenon than Latin Catholicism or other heterodox denominations.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2012, 12:07:42 PM »
I think it doesn't help matters when folks like Met. Ware stating that WRO is like "the U word" but in reverse.

What's wrong with statements like that? I could agree with that but then again I don't find Easten Catholicism anyhow more negative phenomenon than Latin Catholicism or other heterodox denominations.
The problem is that it was a negative statement. Met. Ware has gone on record saying that Western Rite is divisive and is not needed.

Quote
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite_Criticism#Criticism

For more info.
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2012, 09:34:16 PM »
To be fair, Met. Ware made clear he was only speaking about the situation in Britain and said, "I am not qualified to express an opinion about America." Indeed, I believe the situations are quite different.

And his impressions on what the "Anglican Rite" are, aren't really that accurate. It's much, much more than the "Anglican Rite" with a Byzantine epiclesis. It is, more accurately, the ancient Roman Rite with certain interpolations from the Scottish/American liturgical tradition interwoven with it. They are virtually identical, even down to the rubrics, the Rite of St. Tikhon is just a bit longer and more verbose/poetic. And, while St. Tikhon himself likely didn't "vet" the 1892 BCP, the Holy Russian Synod most certainly did.

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2012, 11:36:02 AM »
To be fair, Met. Ware made clear he was only speaking about the situation in Britain and said, "I am not qualified to express an opinion about America." Indeed, I believe the situations are quite different.

And his impressions on what the "Anglican Rite" are, aren't really that accurate. It's much, much more than the "Anglican Rite" with a Byzantine epiclesis. It is, more accurately, the ancient Roman Rite with certain interpolations from the Scottish/American liturgical tradition interwoven with it. They are virtually identical, even down to the rubrics, the Rite of St. Tikhon is just a bit longer and more verbose/poetic. And, while St. Tikhon himself likely didn't "vet" the 1892 BCP, the Holy Russian Synod most certainly did.
I understand that Met. Ware was speaking about England and how the WR would be divisive there but it can be taken as a criticism of the entire rite. Im not the only one who thinks so.

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2012, 12:28:46 PM »
It can be, yes. But it shouldn't be.

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2012, 12:29:23 PM »
It can be, yes. But it shouldn't be.
Very true.
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Offline Caelestinus

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2012, 03:09:30 PM »
I would love to see the creation of a trust for the WR that can be used to help all WR parishes regardless of Jurisdiction. 

That's true!


By the way, have ýou ever asked yourselves, why there is no orthodox WR-parish in Germany?

Offline mike

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2012, 03:50:31 PM »
By the way, have ýou ever asked yourselves, why there is no orthodox WR-parish in Germany?

AFAIK there is one 'biritual' Priest who smetimes serves St. Gregory Liturgy (in Church Slavonic).

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2012, 04:13:16 PM »
I would love to see the creation of a trust for the WR that can be used to help all WR parishes regardless of Jurisdiction. 

That's true!


By the way, have ýou ever asked yourselves, why there is no orthodox WR-parish in Germany?
The Nazis eliminated the few that were there, IIRC.  They had trouble reorganizing after WWII.
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Offline Caelestinus

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2012, 04:20:20 PM »
By the way, have ýou ever asked yourselves, why there is no orthodox WR-parish in Germany?

AFAIK there is one 'biritual' Priest who smetimes serves St. Gregory Liturgy (in Church Slavonic).

Where exactly?

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2012, 04:23:35 PM »
Are you talking about Otto Skorzeny and the Rattenlinien?  I don't recall the Nazis ever really regrouping after WWII.

I would love to see the creation of a trust for the WR that can be used to help all WR parishes regardless of Jurisdiction. 

That's true!


By the way, have ýou ever asked yourselves, why there is no orthodox WR-parish in Germany?
The Nazis eliminated the few that were there, IIRC.  They had trouble reorganizing after WWII.
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Offline Caelestinus

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2012, 04:26:15 PM »
By the way, have ýou ever asked yourselves, why there is no orthodox WR-parish in Germany?

AFAIK there is one 'biritual' Priest who smetimes serves St. Gregory Liturgy (in Church Slavonic).

Where exactly?

I don't know, from where you have your information..could you be a bit more precise?


As far as I know (I am from Germany), there was a WR-parish in Hamburg some 20 years ago (ounder the gudiance of a former free old-catholic priest and under the episkope of ROCA). Now there are following the Byzantine Rite.

Orthodox Christianity is in my country still matter of 'Ausländer-Seelsorge' (foreigners pastoring)..in no other country it is so difficult to enter into, as a convert stated out.

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2012, 04:36:17 PM »
Where exactly?

Our poster Michał met him. All I know he is under Archbishop Theophanes.


As far as I know (I am from Germany), there was a WR-parish in Hamburg some 20 years ago (ounder the gudiance of a former free old-catholic priest and under the episkope of ROCA). Now there are following the Byzantine Rite.

My version of the story is that it had been under the PAOC until it was transferred to the MP. On the other hand it does not mention the WRO at all but I've heard from other sources that it was used there.

http://www.deutsch-orthodox.de/unsere-kirche/
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 04:39:15 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline Caelestinus

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2012, 04:44:03 PM »
Where exactly?

Our poster Michał met him. All I know he is under Archbishop Theophanes.


As far as I know (I am from Germany), there was a WR-parish in Hamburg some 20 years ago (ounder the gudiance of a former free old-catholic priest and under the episkope of ROCA). Now there are following the Byzantine Rite.

My version of the story is that it had been under the PAOC until it was transferred to the MP. On the other hand it does not mention the WRO at all but I've heard from other sources that it was used there.

http://www.deutsch-orthodox.de/unsere-kirche/

Yes, exactly. MP, not ROCA. PAOC is the abbrev. for the Polish Orthodox Church?

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2012, 04:44:50 PM »
PAOC is the abbrev. for the Polish Orthodox Church?

Yes.

Offline Caelestinus

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2012, 04:58:41 PM »
But why is 'Western Rite' so much a phenomena of North America or the Anglophone countries?


For Germany I think, because we still have no religious freedom (on the paper, yes indeed), but in fact all is dominated by the two big 'Volkskirchen' (RCC and the Protestant Church), both financally strong, but spiritual empty. But GB also have the CoE and there are numerous orther denominations (even indigenious orthodox and 'oriental-orthodox').

Is it, because, U.S. citizens care more about religious affairs?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 04:59:07 PM by Caelestinus »

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2012, 05:33:57 PM »
My impression is that the two big churches in Germany are only administrating funerals and, to some degree, weddings. The real religious life is in Islam (we have 5 million Muslims) and in Christianity, in independent Protestant churches (Freikirchen) and well as Roman Catholic movimenti and FSSPX (strongly growing in Germany).

Orthodox Churches often are full, but we are still in the beginning of overcoming the ethnic character of our parishes, maybe like it was 50 years ago in the US.

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2012, 05:49:11 PM »
Two big... You mean Russians and Romanians?

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Re: Matters statistical - the unexpected increase in ROCA's Western Rite
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2012, 04:20:30 PM »
Two big... You mean Russians and Romanians?
No, I meant Roman Catholics and Lutherans.

The Orthodox have different kinds of problems, and it does seem to me that Constantinople is the biggest in Germany.