Author Topic: The pre-Adamic race and the earth ages  (Read 1885 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Shiloah

  • "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb.11:1
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 241
  • www.balamand.edu.lb/ th...JoTheklaCan.htm
    • THE ILLNESS AND CURE OF THE SOUL
The pre-Adamic race and the earth ages
« on: September 10, 2004, 11:04:50 PM »
Does anybody have any knowledge about the topics  "The pre-Adamic race" - The Earth ages"  -  "The Fall of Lucifer" ?

Especially also something about Gen.10:5 ?

I know these are controversial issues and nobody ever preaches on them. But there may be some hidden treasures about these topics in the Holy Tradition of the Church?

I don't want any cookie stuff, just what the Orthodox Church teaches, please.

Thanks, Shiloah                          
« Last Edit: September 10, 2004, 11:14:28 PM by Shiloah »
"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" 2.Cor.4:6

"One thing is education: that we learn how to love God. "

Offline erracht

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 313
  • OC.net
Re:The pre-Adamic race and the earth ages
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2004, 05:45:32 AM »
I think this may not be an Orthodox teaching. However I can say no more than this now.
NULL

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 36,109
Re:The pre-Adamic race and the earth ages
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2004, 07:59:33 AM »
There were no humans before Adam :)

Offline Shiloah

  • "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb.11:1
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 241
  • www.balamand.edu.lb/ th...JoTheklaCan.htm
    • THE ILLNESS AND CURE OF THE SOUL
Re:The pre-Adamic race and the earth ages
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2004, 07:00:22 PM »
Who has said anything about humans before Adam and Eve?

Please consider Ezekiel 28:13-14 ("  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; .....
 14.  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.")

This is just one verse to ponder. Another would be the one in Gen.1:28 (" And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, ...")

And there are many more. Also Gen.6:2 and 4 (" That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. ....
 4.  There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.")

If someone has a helpful link, book or resource to what the Orthodox Church teaches about this, please indicate.

Shiloah
"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" 2.Cor.4:6

"One thing is education: that we learn how to love God. "

Offline ania

  • Life according to Abe Simpson:
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,097
Re:The pre-Adamic race and the earth ages
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2004, 10:41:21 AM »
I'm pretty sure Bsp. Alexander Miliant has something on his website about all this stuff, I forgot what his link is though, have to find it.
Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

Offline ania

  • Life according to Abe Simpson:
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,097
Re:The pre-Adamic race and the earth ages
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2004, 10:47:35 AM »
I'm not sure if this would answer your questions/
http://fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/creation_man_a_mileant_e.htm
Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

Offline Shiloah

  • "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb.11:1
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 241
  • www.balamand.edu.lb/ th...JoTheklaCan.htm
    • THE ILLNESS AND CURE OF THE SOUL
Re:The pre-Adamic race and the earth ages
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2004, 12:30:29 PM »
Thanks, Ania. In that article I don't see mention of what I referred to in my question, but I will write to the Bishop and submit the questions to him. Maybe he knows more about it.
I appreciate your thought.
Shiloah
"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" 2.Cor.4:6

"One thing is education: that we learn how to love God. "

Offline ania

  • Life according to Abe Simpson:
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,097
Re:The pre-Adamic race and the earth ages
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2004, 01:44:48 PM »
I thought that this perhaps would in part answer your question:
 
Possible Interpretations of Paleontological Data.
Religious people treat the findings of fossilized remains of man’s "intermediate links" in different ways. Here are some opinions:

Scholars have misinterpreted the fossilized remains that have been found: there were no humanlike animals: there were just different ape species that have nothing in common with man.

The remains found of humanlike beings are not really that old: some of them belong to different primate species, and some might be ancient people, but they are people who suffered from various physical defects and therefore look like intermediate links between man and ape.

In prehistoric times there might have been humanlike beings, but they all died without leaving offspring. The body of Adam, from whom we are all descended, was created directly by God.

God used the creative powers of nature to gradually perfect the human body. Ancient humanlike beings were highly developed animals that did not yet have the human soul. Adam was the creature that received a soul from the Creator and became the man from whom we are all descended.

Which of the above-mentioned speculations is most feasible?
We categorically deny the banal materialistic point of view that man in the aggregate of his characteristics "came from monkeys," since the soul, which is the highest aspect of the human being, could not have grown out of any kind of evolutionary processes. The next chapter is devoted to this theme.
The first opinion, namely that there are no intermediate links, is increasingly difficult to defend because it forces one to deny the achievements of several branches of science — geology, paleontology, comparative anatomy, genetics, embryologyGǪ which confirm and supplement one another. Besides which, there is no united "plot" among scholars to undermine religion or the Bible’s authority. There are many sincerely religious people among them who acknowledge God our Creator. As they compete with each other to refine facts and develop various theories, scholars gradually eliminate fallacious interpretations and inaccuracies and are always prepared to expose any attempts to forge or manipulate the facts. That is the wonderful thing about science — it is self-correcting.
It is difficult to doubt that the fossilized remains really are ancient, because there are many independent methods of establishing the age of geological eras that generally check and qualify each other. It has been established that the branch of creatures that began to display the anatomical features of later man (for example, the ability to walk on two feet, a change in the form of the skull and teeth) began about five million years ago. Over time, the descendents of these creatures began to obtain more obvious features of modern man. With the large quantity of fossilized remains that have been found, the likelihood that they were all crippled or deformed is extremely low.
The speculation that all humanlike creatures became extinct without leaving descendents presents another predicament: if everything was made by our Creator, then why did He make anthropoids if they were all going to die out later anyway? Or was the Lord experimenting with different variations on man, trying to determine which one would be best?
The view that God set the creative powers of nature forth to form man does not, in our view, decrease His Wisdom or His Creative omnipotence. For the laws of nature had to work together with our Creator to accomplish an ultimate goal: the creation of man.
"Do you really accept the evolutionists’ side, which asserts that man is descended from the ape?" the reader may ask.
No! Man did not come from the ape; his body was made from the dust of the ground, and he got his soul from God, as the Bible teaches.
But the formation of his body should not necessarily be understood as an instantaneous act. If God wanted to use His laws to perfect man’s body, then it was His holy will to do so. It might be that a more ancient ancestor existed from which both modern primates and anthropoids descended. Both are from "the earth," but our Maker showed special care in the formation of man’s body, which is why the Psalmist is right when he says, "Thy hands have made me and fashioned me" (Ps. 119:73).
We can understand the feeling of disappointment that a believer might feel upon learning that he is "a relative of the ape." It would naturally be more pleasant if the Lord had created us independently of the lower creatures. But who dares tell the Creator what He should do? "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? (Is. 45:9).
We ought to see the Creator’s great wisdom in His gradual creation of man’s body with nature’s participation: He put us on Earth not as foreigners, creatures alien to it, like extraterrestrials, but marvelously adapted us to the sharply-changing conditions of the surrounding environment. Our instincts, immunity, senses and physical qualities harmonize ideally with a world filled with dangers and surprises. Like the children of wealthy parents, we inherited everything that nature had perfected for millions of years. What’s more, since we have something in common with the lower creatures, we are able to better understand and pity our "subjects," contributing to their good. Here there is also cause for humility: "Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return," the Lord reminded Adam when the latter wanted to compare himself to God in presumptuous impertinence (Gen. 3:19).
Note: In light of the interpretation offered here that Adam was made in the distant past, when humanlike beings like the Neanderthals still existed, Cain’s fear for his life is understandable. As we know from the book of Genesis, when Cain killed his younger brother Abel, the Lord ordered him to leave the company of his parents and roam the earth. In fear of being killed, Cain tells God, "My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, Thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from Thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me" (Gen. 4:13-14). Here it is clear that, after he became a murderer, he feared suffering the same fate as his brother. But one wonders who could have killed Cain if there were no other people who lived close by besides his immediate siblings. It is natural to assume that Cain knew from his father’s stories about the existence of other "people" — strong and skilled hunters like the Neanderthals.
The speculation mentioned here that man’s body was formed gradually by the Creator together with the powers of nature, we do not call a proven fact, but rather propose as a valid possibility that, in our opinion, harmonizes the story of the Bible with modern scientific discoveries better than any other. It goes without saying that the reader is allowed to interpret Biblical and scientific data in his own way — on the condition that his opinion does not contradict the dogmas of our faith, specifically:
That God, not blind chance, created man,
That man has a godly and immortal soul, which he received from the Creator,
That all modern people come from one ancestor — the Biblical Adam, and inherited not only a soul from him, but his original sin, also.
If one adheres to these truths, then the details about how the world and life on it evolved, or whether man’s body was formed instantly or gradually, are of secondary importance and do not undermine faith in any way.
Professor V. V. Bolotov wrote about the permissibility of private opinion on issues not defined by the Church’s dogma: "No one has the power to forbid me to hold to a teologumen expressed by at least one of the Church’s fathers as my private theological view, as long as it is not proven that a competent church trial has already pronounced the view sinful. But on the other hand, no one has the power to demand of me that I, as my private theological view, follow a teologumen expressed by several fathers of the Church, if that teologumen does not soon captivate me with its sublime theological beauty, and does not conquer me with its argumentation’s majestic strength, which must be accessible to my comprehension."
Reconciling scientific data with religious conviction is far from an abstract exercise — particularly for parents who are believers. In these times, youths sooner or later become acquainted with various evolutionary theories and they begin to question how to reconcile these theories with what they have been taught in classes about the Law of God.
Here it is counterproductive for parents to simply dismiss the discoveries of modern science and assert without confirmation that they were all made up. Both non-religious evolutionists and creationist extremists want to thrust their conceptions on the growing generation, passing them off as facts - the former, by saying that everything originated in and of itself, and the Bible is a collection of myths; and the latter by insisting on a literal interpretation of every word of the Bible and teaching that everything was created instantly in its final form. Youths will feel like they are caught in a cross-fire that forces them to choose between the Bible and science.
Meanwhile, both extremes — evolutionism and creationism — rely not so much upon objective data (of science or the Bible) as upon their own specific suppositions. The evolutionist worldview suffers from a lack of spirituality, shortsightedness and haughty pretensions that in the end, science can explain everything exhaustively. It sometimes repels people with its anti-religious fanaticism. Creationism is notable for its narrow literalism. Not having any positive data in science, it limits itself mainly to a criticism of Darwinism. In spite of astronomy, geology, paleontology, atomic physics and other sciences, creationism insists that the earth is young and disputes obvious facts. However, as everyone knows, facts are "stubborn things."
As for detriment to faith, it is hard to say which of these extreme worldviews is more harmful: the first in that it eliminates our Creator, or the second, in that it creates an artificial conflict between Divine revelation and science.
Fortunately, there is in fact no fundamental conflict between religion and objective scientific data, and there is no need to choose between science and religion, because the two spheres of knowledge complement one another and discuss different sides of the same coin. God is the First Cause and author of all that exists — regardless of how He achieved His goals.
The beginning and the development of life on earth contain many mysteries that, we are convinced, science will never be able to solve exhaustively. And that is because only the final results of complex processes are revealed to us; no traces have been left in nature of precisely which "buttons were pushed" by our Maker or when He did so. In essence, our powers of cognition are not much better than those of "insects on an interplanetary ship."
God has honored me with being the witness of true miracles. Many times in my life I felt the Hand of God, which has led me, delivered me from hardship and given me more than I could dream of. As I look back, I see that all of my life has been woven of insignificant accidents that later turned out to have great consequences for me. But how do I "prove" to others that the merciful Lord has helped me during my life, and it was not coincidence?
We must say in conclusion that in principle no scientific hypothesis, including the theory of evolution in its different variations, threatens faith in God our Creator. Indeed, any theory, in order to be scientific, must remain within the bounds of cognizable and accessible experience. Everything that goes beyond the strict limits of physics falls into the realm of assumptions, metaphysics, and philosophyGǪ But religion is mainly about the other, invisible world — about what is not subject to physical analysis, but is perceived through Divine revelation. The sphere of faith is accessible only to the soul that is able to communicate directly with God.
Therefore, one need not fear pure science. One must simply learn to discern facts from hypotheses. History knows many cases when representatives of both religion and science made mistakes. And the source of these problems has always been not facts, but their interpretation. Whenever a conflict arises between faith and knowledge, it is safest to take a wait-and-see position, believing that, in time, everything will fall into place and the truth will triumph.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2004, 01:53:32 PM by ania »
Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...