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Author Topic: Our Understanding of St. Luke 2:52?  (Read 3293 times) Average Rating: 0
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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2012, 06:55:58 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The Humanity of Jesus Christ, while perfectly One with His Divinity through the Union, is none-the-less perfectly remaining human just as when Oxygen and Hydrogen bond together to form water, both remain naturally their original elements of O and H in every respect, faculty, form, and function.  They unite and form a new compound with a new function, however it is a natural function of the functions of both elements prior to their union. Chemically speaking, water is hydrogen and oxygen in Synergy.  The Incarnation is thus the same.   The Human remains human, the Divine remains Divine, and though they are perfectly One and now the Same they still retain their original and natural functions, merged without mixing so to speak.


So, Can somebody explain to me, how the hypostatic union is in any way similar to a Chemical union between Oxygen and Hydrogen to form water a third nature that is fully shared by neither one of the elements involved? tnx.

 vs



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2012, 07:06:28 PM »

^^ Thank you habte, for that sort of explanation.

Now, I repeat my question can someone please explain it to me?


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The Humanity of Jesus Christ, while perfectly One with His Divinity through the Union, is none-the-less perfectly remaining human just as when Oxygen and Hydrogen bond together to form water, both remain naturally their original elements of O and H in every respect, faculty, form, and function.  They unite and form a new compound with a new function, however it is a natural function of the functions of both elements prior to their union. Chemically speaking, water is hydrogen and oxygen in Synergy.  The Incarnation is thus the same.  The Human remains human, the Divine remains Divine, and though they are perfectly One and now the Same they still retain their original and natural functions, merged without mixing so to speak.


So, Can somebody explain to me, how the hypostatic union is in any way similar to a Chemical union between Oxygen and Hydrogen to form water a third nature that is fully shared by neither one of the elements involved? tnx.
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2012, 07:38:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
^^ Thank you habte, for that sort of explanation.

Now, I repeat my question can someone please explain it to me?


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The Humanity of Jesus Christ, while perfectly One with His Divinity through the Union, is none-the-less perfectly remaining human just as when Oxygen and Hydrogen bond together to form water, both remain naturally their original elements of O and H in every respect, faculty, form, and function.  They unite and form a new compound with a new function, however it is a natural function of the functions of both elements prior to their union. Chemically speaking, water is hydrogen and oxygen in Synergy.  The Incarnation is thus the same.  The Human remains human, the Divine remains Divine, and though they are perfectly One and now the Same they still retain their original and natural functions, merged without mixing so to speak.


So, Can somebody explain to me, how the hypostatic union is in any way similar to a Chemical union between Oxygen and Hydrogen to form water a third nature that is fully shared by neither one of the elements involved? tnx.

Wink


In Chemistry, water forms as a molecular bond between an oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms. These atoms bond by sharing or trading electrons (in water they share a polar covalent bond) to balance their electron levels.  In this instance, Hydrogen shares its single (and therefore imbalanced) electron to Oxygen who needs two for balance and so another hydrogen comes along and completes the balance forming a H2O water molecule.  In this instance, nothing naturally has changed about the composition of the atoms of Hydrogen and Oxygen, they remain elementally distinct and original and without change in regards to the sub-atomic composition of their nucleus which defines their very nature in the first place.  If there were to be a change, the Oxygen could change towards Neon or Flourine because its chemical properties (or its nature) are determined by the composition of its subatomic particles.  So Oxygen gains the two electrons it needs to find balance without having to change into another element by altering its nucleus.  Hydrogen is the same, it remains perfectly hydrogen.  Now that is the first part of the analogy, in that just as the chemical compositions of atoms in molecular bonds does not change, neither did the fundamental structure and composition of the Divine and Human natures change in the Union.  Divine remains unchanged and Divine, Human remains unchanged and Human.

The second part of the analogy is in regards to the function of the nature.  Oxygen and Hydrogen have unique natural functions according to their unique chemical compositions, and they react uniquely as well with other elements.  So even in the molecule, Oxygen can interact with other elements according to its nature (negatively reactive in the Salt Water Sodium Chloride-H20 diagram) as will Hydrogen continue to interact according to its nature (positively reacting). In the Miaphysis of Jesus Christ, His Humanity remains naturally human and functions according to human nature like our own, and His Divinity remains naturally Divine and functions as the Word of God always has.  However, they've come together in Union, and now have a unique function of both at once, just as water is at once reactive hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

I had this epiphany one day after subbing for a middle school science class and have been working it out with my Confessor, he loves it.

Hope that helps Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2012, 08:01:26 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
^^ Thank you habte, for that sort of explanation.

Now, I repeat my question can someone please explain it to me?


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The Humanity of Jesus Christ, while perfectly One with His Divinity through the Union, is none-the-less perfectly remaining human just as when Oxygen and Hydrogen bond together to form water, both remain naturally their original elements of O and H in every respect, faculty, form, and function.  They unite and form a new compound with a new function, however it is a natural function of the functions of both elements prior to their union. Chemically speaking, water is hydrogen and oxygen in Synergy.  The Incarnation is thus the same.  The Human remains human, the Divine remains Divine, and though they are perfectly One and now the Same they still retain their original and natural functions, merged without mixing so to speak.


So, Can somebody explain to me, how the hypostatic union is in any way similar to a Chemical union between Oxygen and Hydrogen to form water a third nature that is fully shared by neither one of the elements involved? tnx.

Wink


In Chemistry, water forms as a molecular bond between an oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms. These atoms bond by sharing or trading electrons (in water they share a polar covalent bond) to balance their electron levels.  In this instance, Hydrogen shares its single (and therefore imbalanced) electron to Oxygen who needs two for balance and so another hydrogen comes along and completes the balance forming a H2O water molecule.  In this instance, nothing naturally has changed about the composition of the atoms of Hydrogen and Oxygen, they remain elementally distinct and original and without change in regards to the sub-atomic composition of their nucleus which defines their very nature in the first place.  If there were to be a change, the Oxygen could change towards Neon or Flourine because its chemical properties (or its nature) are determined by the composition of its subatomic particles.  So Oxygen gains the two electrons it needs to find balance without having to change into another element by altering its nucleus.  Hydrogen is the same, it remains perfectly hydrogen.  Now that is the first part of the analogy, in that just as the chemical compositions of atoms in molecular bonds does not change, neither did the fundamental structure and composition of the Divine and Human natures change in the Union.  Divine remains unchanged and Divine, Human remains unchanged and Human.

The second part of the analogy is in regards to the function of the nature.  Oxygen and Hydrogen have unique natural functions according to their unique chemical compositions, and they react uniquely as well with other elements.  So even in the molecule, Oxygen can interact with other elements according to its nature (negatively reactive in the Salt Water Sodium Chloride-H20 diagram) as will Hydrogen continue to interact according to its nature (positively reacting). In the Miaphysis of Jesus Christ, His Humanity remains naturally human and functions according to human nature like our own, and His Divinity remains naturally Divine and functions as the Word of God always has.  However, they've come together in Union, and now have a unique function of both at once, just as water is at once reactive hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

I had this epiphany one day after subbing for a middle school science class and have been working it out with my Confessor, he loves it.

Hope that helps Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Lord have mercy!

Is hydrogen fully water? Is Oxygen fully water? don't they form a new third nature that is neither oxygen nor hydrogen? in the Hypostatic Union, the fullness of Divinity is unaltered , the fullness of Humanity is unaltered in the One Incarnate Nature of the Logos. there is no Third nature, as the Chemical union of Hydrogen and oxygen forms into a third distinct nature of Water. how is this even remotely similar to the Hypostatic union?

your "epiphany" is a major error as I understand it, so please forgive me, and let another person reply on it.
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« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2012, 08:55:45 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


This an interesting explanation, and it makes sense to me. However, I still struggle with any notion of Christ being "unable" in any capacity. After the Incarnation, Our Lord was still fully omniscient, omnipotent, - and I would venture to say - even had the ability to be omnipresent if He so chose.



That is precisely why I have made the distinction between Christ's consciousness and His physical brain.  I do not believe that our human consciousness is limited to our brain, so why would Christ's? Through the Union, Christ has a unified Human-Divine consciousness (mind and soul) which is surely Omniscient and Omnipotent, however the physicality of His human body is as limited as our own to biological development.  So just like our own infants may be fully conscious and aware and simply biologically unable to express themselves and what they are thinking inside, so to perhaps Christ's infant body was fully aware as God-Man and yet fully limited in expressing this by brain development.  This is similar to how we say that the Word experienced Dead in the flesh (i.e., through the physicality of the body)

stay blessed,
habte selassie


Ahh, thank you. A very plausible explanation. I'm interested to read what others think about this.



Selam
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« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2012, 09:00:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



CYRIL; But the Eunomian Heretics say, “How can He be equal to the Father in substance, who is said to increase, as if before imperfect.” But not because He is the Word, but because He is made man, He is said to receive increase. For if He really increased after that He was made flesh, as having before existed imperfect, why then do we give Him thanks as having thence become incarnate for us? But how if He is the true wisdom can He be increased, or how can He who gives grace to others be Himself advanced in grace. Again, if bearing that the Word humbled Himself, no one is offended (thinking slightingly of the true God,) but rather marvels at His compassion, how is it not absurd to be offended at hearing that He increases? For as He was humbled for us, so for us He increased, that we who have fallen through sin might increase in Him. For whatever concerns us, Christ Himself has truly undertaken for us, that He might restore us to a better state. And mark what He says, not that the Word, but Jesus, increases, that you should not suppose that the pure Word increases, but the Word made flesh; and as we confess that the Word suffered in the flesh, although the flesh only suffered, because of the Word the flesh was which suffered, so He is said to increase, because the human nature of the Word increased in Him. But He is said to increase in His human nature, not as if that nature which was perfect from the beginning received increase, but that by degrees it was manifested. For the law of nature brooks not that man should have higher faculties than the age of his body permits. The Word then (made man) was perfect, as being the power and wisdom of the Father, but because something was to be yielded to the habits of our nature, lest He should be counted strange by those who saw Him, He manifested Himself as man with a body, gradually advancing in growth, and was daily thought wiser by those who saw and heard Him.



Brilliant, thank you for posting this Smiley  

stay blessed,
habte selassie


Yes, thank you! The words in bold seem to support my feeble understanding of this matter.



Selam
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« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2012, 09:03:56 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
^^ Thank you habte, for that sort of explanation.

Now, I repeat my question can someone please explain it to me?


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The Humanity of Jesus Christ, while perfectly One with His Divinity through the Union, is none-the-less perfectly remaining human just as when Oxygen and Hydrogen bond together to form water, both remain naturally their original elements of O and H in every respect, faculty, form, and function.  They unite and form a new compound with a new function, however it is a natural function of the functions of both elements prior to their union. Chemically speaking, water is hydrogen and oxygen in Synergy.  The Incarnation is thus the same.   The Human remains human, the Divine remains Divine, and though they are perfectly One and now the Same they still retain their original and natural functions, merged without mixing so to speak.


So, Can somebody explain to me, how the hypostatic union is in any way similar to a Chemical union between Oxygen and Hydrogen to form water a third nature that is fully shared by neither one of the elements involved? tnx.

Wink


In Chemistry, water forms as a molecular bond between an oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms. These atoms bond by sharing or trading electrons (in water they share a polar covalent bond) to balance their electron levels.  In this instance, Hydrogen shares its single (and therefore imbalanced) electron to Oxygen who needs two for balance and so another hydrogen comes along and completes the balance forming a H2O water molecule.  In this instance, nothing naturally has changed about the composition of the atoms of Hydrogen and Oxygen, they remain elementally distinct and original and without change in regards to the sub-atomic composition of their nucleus which defines their very nature in the first place. If there were to be a change, the Oxygen could change towards Neon or Flourine because its chemical properties (or its nature) are determined by the composition of its subatomic particles.  So Oxygen gains the two electrons it needs to find balance without having to change into another element by altering its nucleus. Hydrogen is the same, it remains perfectly hydrogen.  Now that is the first part of the analogy, in that just as the chemical compositions of atoms in molecular bonds does not change, neither did the fundamental structure and composition of the Divine and Human natures change in the Union.  Divine remains unchanged and Divine, Human remains unchanged and Human.

The second part of the analogy is in regards to the function of the nature.  Oxygen and Hydrogen have unique natural functions according to their unique chemical compositions, and they react uniquely as well with other elements. So even in the molecule, Oxygen can interact with other elements according to its nature (negatively reactive in the Salt Water Sodium Chloride-H20 diagram) as will Hydrogen continue to interact according to its nature (positively reacting). In the Miaphysis of Jesus Christ, His Humanity remains naturally human and functions according to human nature like our own, and His Divinity remains naturally Divine and functions as the Word of God always has.  However, they've come together in Union, and now have a unique function of both at once, just as water is at once reactive hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

I had this epiphany one day after subbing for a middle school science class and have been working it out with my Confessor, he loves it.

Hope that helps Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Lord have mercy!

Is hydrogen fully water? Is Oxygen fully water? don't they form a new third nature that is neither oxygen nor hydrogen? in the Hypostatic Union, the fullness of Divinity is unaltered , the fullness of Humanity is unaltered in the One Incarnate Nature of the Logos. there is no Third nature, as the Chemical union of Hydrogen and oxygen forms into a third distinct nature of Water. how is this even remotely similar to the Hypostatic union?

your "epiphany" is a major error as I understand it, so please forgive me, and let another person reply on it.

I am sorry, the phrasing of the third nature part was a bit misleading and not in the most literal sense my intention neither the fundamental aspect of the analogy.  Please disregard it, I phrased it inaccurately as to what I intended it to reflect.  Water does not form a new or third nature, water is completely and naturally hydrogen and oxygen unchanged.  The subatomic composition of their respective nucleus are unchanged they remain fundamentally hydrogen and oxygen united by their mutual electrons.  Nothing about the respective natures has changed. 

It is the same with the Union.  There is no change, separation, mixture, or confusion.  The humanity and Divinity are unchanged just as the hydrogen and oxygen remain unchanged, unmixed, without confusion neither separation naturally speaking.  The Union is unique, and Jesus Christ does as Saint Cyril teaches have a miaphysis, as One Nature of the Word of God Incarnate, and our Tewahedo doctrine teaches us this is Two as One.  So in the water analogy, these molecules function as a miaphysis, and that is what I meant by new nature, so perhaps I should have not used the misleading word of third, because that is not what I meant to say.  However, surely we agree that Christ's united Human-Divine Nature is a unique Nature He possesses unto Himself, because the Father and Holy Spirit are not Human, and we humans are not Divine, but in the Theandric Union Jesus Christ is both at once.

 This is what I was implying about water, it is not solely hydrogen (i.e., hydrogen alone does not act as it does uniquely in the molecule of water where as the hydrogen when bonded to oxygen still reacts to other elements as a sole hydrogen can) neither solely oxygen and yet it is both at the same time.

I hope that helps.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 09:21:37 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2012, 09:08:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
^^ Thank you habte, for that sort of explanation.

Now, I repeat my question can someone please explain it to me?


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The Humanity of Jesus Christ, while perfectly One with His Divinity through the Union, is none-the-less perfectly remaining human just as when Oxygen and Hydrogen bond together to form water, both remain naturally their original elements of O and H in every respect, faculty, form, and function.  They unite and form a new compound with a new function, however it is a natural function of the functions of both elements prior to their union. Chemically speaking, water is hydrogen and oxygen in Synergy.  The Incarnation is thus the same.  The Human remains human, the Divine remains Divine, and though they are perfectly One and now the Same they still retain their original and natural functions, merged without mixing so to speak.


So, Can somebody explain to me, how the hypostatic union is in any way similar to a Chemical union between Oxygen and Hydrogen to form water a third nature that is fully shared by neither one of the elements involved? tnx.

Wink


In Chemistry, water forms as a molecular bond between an oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms. These atoms bond by sharing or trading electrons (in water they share a polar covalent bond) to balance their electron levels.  In this instance, Hydrogen shares its single (and therefore imbalanced) electron to Oxygen who needs two for balance and so another hydrogen comes along and completes the balance forming a H2O water molecule.  In this instance, nothing naturally has changed about the composition of the atoms of Hydrogen and Oxygen, they remain elementally distinct and original and without change in regards to the sub-atomic composition of their nucleus which defines their very nature in the first place.  If there were to be a change, the Oxygen could change towards Neon or Flourine because its chemical properties (or its nature) are determined by the composition of its subatomic particles.  So Oxygen gains the two electrons it needs to find balance without having to change into another element by altering its nucleus.  Hydrogen is the same, it remains perfectly hydrogen.  Now that is the first part of the analogy, in that just as the chemical compositions of atoms in molecular bonds does not change, neither did the fundamental structure and composition of the Divine and Human natures change in the Union.  Divine remains unchanged and Divine, Human remains unchanged and Human.

The second part of the analogy is in regards to the function of the nature.  Oxygen and Hydrogen have unique natural functions according to their unique chemical compositions, and they react uniquely as well with other elements.  So even in the molecule, Oxygen can interact with other elements according to its nature (negatively reactive in the Salt Water Sodium Chloride-H20 diagram) as will Hydrogen continue to interact according to its nature (positively reacting). In the Miaphysis of Jesus Christ, His Humanity remains naturally human and functions according to human nature like our own, and His Divinity remains naturally Divine and functions as the Word of God always has.  However, they've come together in Union, and now have a unique function of both at once, just as water is at once reactive hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

I had this epiphany one day after subbing for a middle school science class and have been working it out with my Confessor, he loves it.

Hope that helps Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Lord have mercy!

Is hydrogen fully water? Is Oxygen fully water? don't they form a new third nature that is neither oxygen nor hydrogen? in the Hypostatic Union, the fullness of Divinity is unaltered , the fullness of Humanity is unaltered in the One Incarnate Nature of the Logos. there is no Third nature, as the Chemical union of Hydrogen and oxygen forms into a third distinct nature of Water. how is this even remotely similar to the Hypostatic union?

your "epiphany" is a major error as I understand it, so please forgive me, and let another person reply on it.


Yes, I understand your concerns here Hiwot. I don't think the analogy is completely erroneous, but all such analogies will remain imperfect in their ability to convey the reality of the holy Mystery of the Incarnation. It is good for us to seek explanations and offer illustrative comparisons, but ultimately we must confess these Mysteries and not try to force them to become acceptible to our finite logic. Theologically speaking, we will inevitably fall into heresy when we try to force a square peg into a round hole.

I do think that we are all trying our best here to affirm Tewahedo Truth. So, as we talk these things out, let's make sure that we give one another the benefit of the doubt and correct one another in gentleness and love. I think everyone has been very good about that so far. Smiley This is a very worthy discussion.


Selam
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« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2012, 09:31:14 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
^^ Thank you habte, for that sort of explanation.

Now, I repeat my question can someone please explain it to me?


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The Humanity of Jesus Christ, while perfectly One with His Divinity through the Union, is none-the-less perfectly remaining human just as when Oxygen and Hydrogen bond together to form water, both remain naturally their original elements of O and H in every respect, faculty, form, and function.  They unite and form a new compound with a new function, however it is a natural function of the functions of both elements prior to their union. Chemically speaking, water is hydrogen and oxygen in Synergy.  The Incarnation is thus the same.   The Human remains human, the Divine remains Divine, and though they are perfectly One and now the Same they still retain their original and natural functions, merged without mixing so to speak.


So, Can somebody explain to me, how the hypostatic union is in any way similar to a Chemical union between Oxygen and Hydrogen to form water a third nature that is fully shared by neither one of the elements involved? tnx.

Wink


In Chemistry, water forms as a molecular bond between an oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms. These atoms bond by sharing or trading electrons (in water they share a polar covalent bond) to balance their electron levels.  In this instance, Hydrogen shares its single (and therefore imbalanced) electron to Oxygen who needs two for balance and so another hydrogen comes along and completes the balance forming a H2O water molecule.  In this instance, nothing naturally has changed about the composition of the atoms of Hydrogen and Oxygen, they remain elementally distinct and original and without change in regards to the sub-atomic composition of their nucleus which defines their very nature in the first place.  If there were to be a change, the Oxygen could change towards Neon or Flourine because its chemical properties (or its nature) are determined by the composition of its subatomic particles.  So Oxygen gains the two electrons it needs to find balance without having to change into another element by altering its nucleus.  Hydrogen is the same, it remains perfectly hydrogen.  Now that is the first part of the analogy, in that just as the chemical compositions of atoms in molecular bonds does not change, neither did the fundamental structure and composition of the Divine and Human natures change in the Union.  Divine remains unchanged and Divine, Human remains unchanged and Human.

The second part of the analogy is in regards to the function of the nature.  Oxygen and Hydrogen have unique natural functions according to their unique chemical compositions, and they react uniquely as well with other elements.  So even in the molecule, Oxygen can interact with other elements according to its nature (negatively reactive in the Salt Water Sodium Chloride-H20 diagram) as will Hydrogen continue to interact according to its nature (positively reacting). In the Miaphysis of Jesus Christ, His Humanity remains naturally human and functions according to human nature like our own, and His Divinity remains naturally Divine and functions as the Word of God always has.  However, they've come together in Union, and now have a unique function of both at once, just as water is at once reactive hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

I had this epiphany one day after subbing for a middle school science class and have been working it out with my Confessor, he loves it.

Hope that helps Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Lord have mercy!

Is hydrogen fully water? Is Oxygen fully water? don't they form a new third nature that is neither oxygen nor hydrogen? in the Hypostatic Union, the fullness of Divinity is unaltered , the fullness of Humanity is unaltered in the One Incarnate Nature of the Logos. there is no Third nature, as the Chemical union of Hydrogen and oxygen forms into a third distinct nature of Water. how is this even remotely similar to the Hypostatic union?

your "epiphany" is a major error as I understand it, so please forgive me, and let another person reply on it.

I am sorry, the phrasing of the third nature part was a bit misleading and not in the most literal sense my intention neither the fundamental aspect of the analogy.  Please disregard it, I phrased it inaccurately as to what I intended it to reflect.  The Union is unique, and Jesus Christ does as Saint Cyril teaches have a miaphysis, as One Nature of the Word of God Incarnate, and our Tewahedo doctrine teaches us this is Two as One.  So in the water analogy, these molecules function as a miaphysis, and that is what I meant by new nature, so perhaps I should have not used the misleading word of third, because that is not what I meant to say.  However, surely we agree that Christ's united Human-Divine Nature is a unique Nature He possesses unto Himself, because the Father and Holy Spirit are not Human, and we humans are not Divine, but in the Theandric Union Jesus Christ is both at once.

 This is what I was implying about water, it is not solely hydrogen (i.e., hydrogen alone does not act as it does uniquely in the molecule of water where as the hydrogen when bonded to oxygen still reacts to other elements as a sole hydrogen can) neither solely oxygen and yet it is both at the same time.

I hope that helps.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

In the case of a Chemical union, the atoms involved lose their initial properties that made them unique before the Chemical union, no such thing happened in the Hypostatic union, the Miaphysis we are speaking of is not singularity as a result of alteration in a Chemical union, but  the One Incarnate Nature of the Logos. In this union, neither The Divine nor the Human Nature lose their properties proper to them each. No Chemical union can be used to describe the Hypostatic Union.

as Gebre said, analogies are imperfect to describe this unique Union, however when we do use analogies we should stick very close to the Father's Orthodox analogy rather than our own thoughts. The Orthodox Church has enough Orthodox Language to describe everything that can be described using human terminology, the Church Fathers through the Holy Spirit have given us enough. No need to venture out in our own when what we are discussing is of such great importance to the  Orthodox Church.

In Christ,
Hiwot.
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2012, 09:38:52 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




In the case of a Chemical union, the atoms involved lose their initial properties that made them unique before the Chemical union, no such thing happened in the Hypostatic union, the Miaphysis we are speaking of is not singularity as a result of alteration in a Chemical union, but  the One Incarnate Nature of the Logos.



Sister that is not true.  It is not the electrons which necessarily that determine the nature of elements, it is the subatomic contents of the nucleus, which are not affected by the molecular bonding.  In fact this is the crux of the analogy, because it is the subatomic particle composition which determines an elements "nature."  Just then as in molecular bonds, where the elements do not change, Oxygen does not change to Florine or Neon neither does Hydrogen become Helium, in the Incarnation the Divine remains unchanged as the Divine Nature, and the Humanity remains unchanged as the Human Nature, and yet they are united as a single miaphysis that naturally contains the elements of both human and Divine. 

Again, the hydrogen remains fundamentally hydrogen and the oxygen remains fundamentally oxygen, and both react this way with other elements, hence in the Sodium Chloride diagram, where the positive Hydrogen reacts with the negative Chlorine and the negative Oxygen reacts with the positive Sodium.  While united as water, both elements still maintain their respective natural properties. 

I hope that helps Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2012, 09:39:00 PM »

I grow increasingly concerned at the positions which are reported to be those of Fr. Thomas Hopko. He seems to be influencing many to adopt entirely non-Orthodox views on several subjects.

If you read the Fathers, especially St Cyril because he is accessible, you will see how to understand this passage.

Our Lord was omniscient in his humanity by virtue of the hypostatic union. He grew in wisdom only in the sense that he manifested his divinity in increasing measure in connection with the growth of his humanity. St Cyril says..

Be not therefore offended, considering perchance within thyself, How can God increase? or how can He Who gives grace to angels and to men receive fresh wisdom? Rather reflect upon the great skill wherewith we are initiated into His mystery. For the wise Evangelist did not introduce the Word in His abstract and incorporeal nature, and so say of Him that He increased in stature and wisdom and grace, but after having shewn that He was born in the flesh of a woman, and took our likeness, he then assigns to Him these human attributes, and calls Him a child, and says that He waxed in stature, as His body grow little by little, in obedience to corporeal laws. And so He is said also to have increased in wisdom, not as receiving fresh supplies of wisdom,----for God is perceived by the understanding to be entirely perfect in all things, and altogether incapable of being destitute of any attribute suitable to the Godhead:----but because God the Word gradually manifested His wisdom proportionably to the age which the body had attained.

The body then advances in stature, and the soul in wisdom: for the divine nature is capable of increase in neither one nor the other; seeing that the Word of God is all perfect. And with good reason he connected the increase of wisdom with the growth of the bodily stature, because the divine nature revealed its own wisdom in proportion to the measure of the bodily growth.


Thanks Fr. Peter for the Saint Cyril quote!
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« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2012, 10:43:54 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




In the case of a Chemical union, the atoms involved lose their initial properties that made them unique before the Chemical union, no such thing happened in the Hypostatic union, the Miaphysis we are speaking of is not singularity as a result of alteration in a Chemical union, but  the One Incarnate Nature of the Logos.



Sister that is not true.  It is not the electrons which necessarily that determine the nature of elements, it is the subatomic contents of the nucleus, which are not affected by the molecular bonding.  In fact this is the crux of the analogy, because it is the subatomic particle composition which determines an elements "nature."  Just then as in molecular bonds, where the elements do not change, Oxygen does not change to Florine or Neon neither does Hydrogen become Helium, in the Incarnation the Divine remains unchanged as the Divine Nature, and the Humanity remains unchanged as the Human Nature, and yet they are united as a single miaphysis that naturally contains the elements of both human and Divine. 

Again, the hydrogen remains fundamentally hydrogen and the oxygen remains fundamentally oxygen, and both react this way with other elements, hence in the Sodium Chloride diagram, where the positive Hydrogen reacts with the negative Chlorine and the negative Oxygen reacts with the positive Sodium.  While united as water, both elements still maintain their respective natural properties. 

I hope that helps Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

habte , I understand your position, and your adamant adhering to it, which is why I said let another person give an explanation for this not for the lack of my understanding of Chemistry as you delightfully seem to assume.  I am perfectly aware of  what goes on in the chemical union of atoms but Thank you for the HELP anyway lol . the exchange/ sharing of atoms alters the initial property of the Hydrogen atom  as it exists prior to the union with the oxygen atom,which in this case the human or the divine properties were not altered as a result of the hypostatic union. nor was there any mixing or mingling in it, as there is a mixing of atoms in these covalent bonds, that makes the atoms behave differently than the initial  property of the single atom prior to the union.

And it is not for your mentioning of a third nature that I mentioned it, what happens is indeed a third nature that is neither fully the initial hydrogen, nor fully the initial oxygen, nor is either of the element fully water. the mingling, the mixing, the altering is a grave error of Christology when a Chemical union is used to explain the Hypostatic union.

Again I know your postion, and I will await the explanation of my other orthodox brothers and sisters who know their christology to explain it to me Smiley  no offence to you or Stephen Hawkins. Grin
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2012, 11:07:33 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




In the case of a Chemical union, the atoms involved lose their initial properties that made them unique before the Chemical union, no such thing happened in the Hypostatic union, the Miaphysis we are speaking of is not singularity as a result of alteration in a Chemical union, but  the One Incarnate Nature of the Logos.



Sister that is not true.  It is not the electrons which necessarily that determine the nature of elements, it is the subatomic contents of the nucleus, which are not affected by the molecular bonding.  In fact this is the crux of the analogy, because it is the subatomic particle composition which determines an elements "nature."  Just then as in molecular bonds, where the elements do not change, Oxygen does not change to Florine or Neon neither does Hydrogen become Helium, in the Incarnation the Divine remains unchanged as the Divine Nature, and the Humanity remains unchanged as the Human Nature, and yet they are united as a single miaphysis that naturally contains the elements of both human and Divine. 

Again, the hydrogen remains fundamentally hydrogen and the oxygen remains fundamentally oxygen, and both react this way with other elements, hence in the Sodium Chloride diagram, where the positive Hydrogen reacts with the negative Chlorine and the negative Oxygen reacts with the positive Sodium.  While united as water, both elements still maintain their respective natural properties. 

I hope that helps Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

habte , I understand your position, and your adamant adhering to it, which is why I said let another person give an explanation for this not for the lack of my understanding of Chemistry as you delightfully seem to assume.  I am perfectly aware of  what goes on in the chemical union of atoms but Thank you for the HELP anyway lol . the exchange/ sharing of atoms alters the initial property of the Hydrogen atom  as it exists prior to the union with the oxygen atom,which in this case the human or the divine properties were not altered as a result of the hypostatic union. nor was there any mixing or mingling in it, as there is a mixing of atoms in these covalent bonds, that makes the atoms behave differently than the initial  property of the single atom prior to the union.

And it is not for your mentioning of a third nature that I mentioned it, what happens is indeed a third nature that is neither fully the initial hydrogen, nor fully the initial oxygen, nor is either of the element fully water. the mingling, the mixing, the altering is a grave error of Christology when a Chemical union is used to explain the Hypostatic union.

Again I know your postion, and I will await the explanation of my other orthodox brothers and sisters who know their christology to explain it to me Smiley  no offence to you or Stephen Hawkins. Grin


There is a mixing of electrons, not the the nucleus of the hydrogen and oxygen. It is the contents of the nucleus which determine the nature of the element, and it is content of the nucleus which determines the electron count outside.  In the bonding, when the electrons are shared or traded, the nucleus is not changed,altered, mixed, separated, or confused and so the elements remain fundamentally the same, which is why they still maintain their initial positive or negative charges (in a polar covalent bond) because they are essentially still the same elements.  I am not trying to convince you, I am just clarifying myself because of the misconception, because we are disagreeing about chemistry here, not Christology, just as we've had disagreements regarding history and politics and psychiatry in the past, easily arguable subjects, but our Christology as Tewahedo Christians has been expressed the same and in complete mutual agreement Smiley

Further, I agree with both you and Brother Gebre Menfes Kidus, that any analogies are not intended to be concrete or perfect to describe or explain the Mysteries which can not ever be explained.  This is just a visual model which works well in the mind's eye.  I humbly concede your points on any weaknesses in the analogy, I just wanted to clarify so that you can others can see that even if there are flaws in the analogy, my Christology is in agreement with y'all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2012, 11:18:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




In the case of a Chemical union, the atoms involved lose their initial properties that made them unique before the Chemical union, no such thing happened in the Hypostatic union, the Miaphysis we are speaking of is not singularity as a result of alteration in a Chemical union, but  the One Incarnate Nature of the Logos.



Sister that is not true.  It is not the electrons which necessarily that determine the nature of elements, it is the subatomic contents of the nucleus, which are not affected by the molecular bonding.  In fact this is the crux of the analogy, because it is the subatomic particle composition which determines an elements "nature."  Just then as in molecular bonds, where the elements do not change, Oxygen does not change to Florine or Neon neither does Hydrogen become Helium, in the Incarnation the Divine remains unchanged as the Divine Nature, and the Humanity remains unchanged as the Human Nature, and yet they are united as a single miaphysis that naturally contains the elements of both human and Divine. 

Again, the hydrogen remains fundamentally hydrogen and the oxygen remains fundamentally oxygen, and both react this way with other elements, hence in the Sodium Chloride diagram, where the positive Hydrogen reacts with the negative Chlorine and the negative Oxygen reacts with the positive Sodium.  While united as water, both elements still maintain their respective natural properties. 

I hope that helps Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

habte , I understand your position, and your adamant adhering to it, which is why I said let another person give an explanation for this not for the lack of my understanding of Chemistry as you delightfully seem to assume.  I am perfectly aware of  what goes on in the chemical union of atoms but Thank you for the HELP anyway lol . the exchange/ sharing of atoms alters the initial property of the Hydrogen atom  as it exists prior to the union with the oxygen atom,which in this case the human or the divine properties were not altered as a result of the hypostatic union. nor was there any mixing or mingling in it, as there is a mixing of atoms in these covalent bonds, that makes the atoms behave differently than the initial  property of the single atom prior to the union.

And it is not for your mentioning of a third nature that I mentioned it, what happens is indeed a third nature that is neither fully the initial hydrogen, nor fully the initial oxygen, nor is either of the element fully water. the mingling, the mixing, the altering is a grave error of Christology when a Chemical union is used to explain the Hypostatic union.

Again I know your postion, and I will await the explanation of my other orthodox brothers and sisters who know their christology to explain it to me Smiley  no offence to you or Stephen Hawkins. Grin


There is a mixing of electrons, not the the nucleus of the hydrogen and oxygen. It is the contents of the nucleus which determine the nature of the element, and it is content of the nucleus which determines the electron count outside.  In the bonding, when the electrons are shared or traded, the nucleus is not changed,altered, mixed, separated, or confused and so the elements remain fundamentally the same, which is why they still maintain their initial positive or negative charges (in a polar covalent bond) because they are essentially still the same elements.  I am not trying to convince you, I am just clarifying myself because of the misconception, because we are disagreeing about chemistry here, not Christology, just as we've had disagreements regarding history and politics and psychiatry in the past, easily arguable subjects, but our Christology as Tewahedo Christians has been expressed the same and in complete mutual agreement Smiley

Further, I agree with both you and Brother Gebre Menfes Kidus, that any analogies are not intended to be concrete or perfect to describe or explain the Mysteries which can not ever be explained.  This is just a visual model which works well in the mind's eye.  I humbly concede your points on any weaknesses in the analogy, I just wanted to clarify so that you can others can see that even if there are flaws in the analogy, my Christology is in agreement with y'all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

yes well, Chemistry lesson aside, some analogies are extremely dangerous when used with such assurance that they are orthodox analogies, when they do not apply at all, in the light of the main fundamental terms  that guard the Hypostatic union's integrity, Chemical union is in no way able to indicate the manner of that union without violating those fundamental terms of the union. So as long as we stick to the Orthodox terminologies that do maintain the integrity of the union, I am quite content.

In Christ,
Hiwot.
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« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2012, 11:34:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




In the case of a Chemical union, the atoms involved lose their initial properties that made them unique before the Chemical union, no such thing happened in the Hypostatic union, the Miaphysis we are speaking of is not singularity as a result of alteration in a Chemical union, but  the One Incarnate Nature of the Logos.



Sister that is not true.  It is not the electrons which necessarily that determine the nature of elements, it is the subatomic contents of the nucleus, which are not affected by the molecular bonding.  In fact this is the crux of the analogy, because it is the subatomic particle composition which determines an elements "nature."  Just then as in molecular bonds, where the elements do not change, Oxygen does not change to Florine or Neon neither does Hydrogen become Helium, in the Incarnation the Divine remains unchanged as the Divine Nature, and the Humanity remains unchanged as the Human Nature, and yet they are united as a single miaphysis that naturally contains the elements of both human and Divine. 

Again, the hydrogen remains fundamentally hydrogen and the oxygen remains fundamentally oxygen, and both react this way with other elements, hence in the Sodium Chloride diagram, where the positive Hydrogen reacts with the negative Chlorine and the negative Oxygen reacts with the positive Sodium.  While united as water, both elements still maintain their respective natural properties. 

I hope that helps Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

habte , I understand your position, and your adamant adhering to it, which is why I said let another person give an explanation for this not for the lack of my understanding of Chemistry as you delightfully seem to assume.  I am perfectly aware of  what goes on in the chemical union of atoms but Thank you for the HELP anyway lol . the exchange/ sharing of atoms alters the initial property of the Hydrogen atom  as it exists prior to the union with the oxygen atom,which in this case the human or the divine properties were not altered as a result of the hypostatic union. nor was there any mixing or mingling in it, as there is a mixing of atoms in these covalent bonds, that makes the atoms behave differently than the initial  property of the single atom prior to the union.

And it is not for your mentioning of a third nature that I mentioned it, what happens is indeed a third nature that is neither fully the initial hydrogen, nor fully the initial oxygen, nor is either of the element fully water. the mingling, the mixing, the altering is a grave error of Christology when a Chemical union is used to explain the Hypostatic union.

Again I know your postion, and I will await the explanation of my other orthodox brothers and sisters who know their christology to explain it to me Smiley  no offence to you or Stephen Hawkins. Grin


There is a mixing of electrons, not the the nucleus of the hydrogen and oxygen. It is the contents of the nucleus which determine the nature of the element, and it is content of the nucleus which determines the electron count outside.  In the bonding, when the electrons are shared or traded, the nucleus is not changed,altered, mixed, separated, or confused and so the elements remain fundamentally the same, which is why they still maintain their initial positive or negative charges (in a polar covalent bond) because they are essentially still the same elements.  I am not trying to convince you, I am just clarifying myself because of the misconception, because we are disagreeing about chemistry here, not Christology, just as we've had disagreements regarding history and politics and psychiatry in the past, easily arguable subjects, but our Christology as Tewahedo Christians has been expressed the same and in complete mutual agreement Smiley

Further, I agree with both you and Brother Gebre Menfes Kidus, that any analogies are not intended to be concrete or perfect to describe or explain the Mysteries which can not ever be explained.  This is just a visual model which works well in the mind's eye.  I humbly concede your points on any weaknesses in the analogy, I just wanted to clarify so that you can others can see that even if there are flaws in the analogy, my Christology is in agreement with y'all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


Amen brother. We all profess Tewahedo Christology (all of us OO posters that is), and it is good to reason together to gain a better understanding of how to convey this Christological Mystery. I don't think you, Hiwot, Salpy, Father Peter, Ekhristos, myself, or anyone else here is in danger of elevating our own ideas and opinions over and above the teachings and analogies provided by the Fathers of our Faith. But it is always good to be cautious, and I think we are all trying to err on the side of caution in this discussion.


Selam
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« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2013, 12:29:53 PM »

I grow increasingly concerned at the positions which are reported to be those of Fr. Thomas Hopko. He seems to be influencing many to adopt entirely non-Orthodox views on several subjects.

If you read the Fathers, especially St Cyril because he is accessible, you will see how to understand this passage.

Our Lord was omniscient in his humanity by virtue of the hypostatic union. He grew in wisdom only in the sense that he manifested his divinity in increasing measure in connection with the growth of his humanity. St Cyril says..

Be not therefore offended, considering perchance within thyself, How can God increase? or how can He Who gives grace to angels and to men receive fresh wisdom? Rather reflect upon the great skill wherewith we are initiated into His mystery. For the wise Evangelist did not introduce the Word in His abstract and incorporeal nature, and so say of Him that He increased in stature and wisdom and grace, but after having shewn that He was born in the flesh of a woman, and took our likeness, he then assigns to Him these human attributes, and calls Him a child, and says that He waxed in stature, as His body grow little by little, in obedience to corporeal laws. And so He is said also to have increased in wisdom, not as receiving fresh supplies of wisdom,----for God is perceived by the understanding to be entirely perfect in all things, and altogether incapable of being destitute of any attribute suitable to the Godhead:----but because God the Word gradually manifested His wisdom proportionably to the age which the body had attained.

The body then advances in stature, and the soul in wisdom: for the divine nature is capable of increase in neither one nor the other; seeing that the Word of God is all perfect. And with good reason he connected the increase of wisdom with the growth of the bodily stature, because the divine nature revealed its own wisdom in proportion to the measure of the bodily growth.

IOW, "enriching what was human, not impairing what was divine:  because that “emptying of himself,” whereby the Invisible made himself visible, and the Creator and Lord of all things willed to be one among mortals, was a stooping down in compassion, not a failure of power."  If, however, it is not a real increase, but rather a conscious attempt to mask His full wisdom, then the incarnation did not take place-He only seemed to become man, as the Docetists asserted.

This issue should be seen in the context of Pope St. Cyril's argument in On the Unity of Christ on how Christ was anointed with the Spirit, although He was, according to His divinity, never separated from Him.
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« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2013, 11:05:32 AM »

I grow increasingly concerned at the positions which are reported to be those of Fr. Thomas Hopko. He seems to be influencing many to adopt entirely non-Orthodox views on several subjects.

If you read the Fathers, especially St Cyril because he is accessible, you will see how to understand this passage.

Our Lord was omniscient in his humanity by virtue of the hypostatic union. He grew in wisdom only in the sense that he manifested his divinity in increasing measure in connection with the growth of his humanity. St Cyril says..

Be not therefore offended, considering perchance within thyself, How can God increase? or how can He Who gives grace to angels and to men receive fresh wisdom? Rather reflect upon the great skill wherewith we are initiated into His mystery. For the wise Evangelist did not introduce the Word in His abstract and incorporeal nature, and so say of Him that He increased in stature and wisdom and grace, but after having shewn that He was born in the flesh of a woman, and took our likeness, he then assigns to Him these human attributes, and calls Him a child, and says that He waxed in stature, as His body grow little by little, in obedience to corporeal laws. And so He is said also to have increased in wisdom, not as receiving fresh supplies of wisdom,----for God is perceived by the understanding to be entirely perfect in all things, and altogether incapable of being destitute of any attribute suitable to the Godhead:----but because God the Word gradually manifested His wisdom proportionably to the age which the body had attained.

The body then advances in stature, and the soul in wisdom: for the divine nature is capable of increase in neither one nor the other; seeing that the Word of God is all perfect. And with good reason he connected the increase of wisdom with the growth of the bodily stature, because the divine nature revealed its own wisdom in proportion to the measure of the bodily growth.

IOW, "enriching what was human, not impairing what was divine:  because that “emptying of himself,” whereby the Invisible made himself visible, and the Creator and Lord of all things willed to be one among mortals, was a stooping down in compassion, not a failure of power."  If, however, it is not a real increase, but rather a conscious attempt to mask His full wisdom, then the incarnation did not take place-He only seemed to become man, as the Docetists asserted.

This issue should be seen in the context of Pope St. Cyril's argument in On the Unity of Christ on how Christ was anointed with the Spirit, although He was, according to His divinity, never separated from Him.
[I do ask that responses be limited to OO posters only. I do not wish for this thread to turn into a debate about Our Lord's nature.]
Sorry.  Walked in in the middle of the movie.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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