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Author Topic: Church Slavonic Prostopenije Christmas Liturgy from Medzilaborce, Slovakia  (Read 1583 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 29, 2011, 01:38:49 PM »

For those of you who appreciate the  Carpatho-Russian/Rusyn Prostopenije and want to hear the Rusyn enunciation of Slavonic, this link to the Slovak Radio broadcast of the Greek Catholic Christmas Liturgy from Medzilaborce, Slovakia on the border with Ukraine is fantastic. (Medzilaborce is the home town of the family of Andy Warhol and home to the Presov Orthodox Diocesan Children's Home.)

http://www.rusynmedia.org/Divine%20Liturgy%20-%20Christmas%2025-Dec-2011%20Midzilabirci%20SK.mp3
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« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2011, 02:10:35 PM »

Thanks for posting this!  So far I have listened to it twice.  Their Prostopenije is quite excellent.  They just make that Slavonic language come alive. Its just so beautiful.
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2012, 05:29:45 AM »

I just noticed this thread now - what an absolutely beautiful liturgy. 

As an aside, I really appreciate the pacing of this liturgy.  Everything is clear and understandable.  For the life of me I don't understand why some parishes drag liturgy out to twice this length. 
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2012, 11:37:05 AM »

Glad this thread was bumped up because it reminded me to thank you for posting this.  DH and I listened to much of it and enjoyed it a lot.
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2012, 11:38:29 AM »

I just noticed this thread now - what an absolutely beautiful liturgy.  

As an aside, I really appreciate the pacing of this liturgy.  Everything is clear and understandable.  For the life of me I don't understand why some parishes drag liturgy out to twice this length.  

For those of you who remember Prof. Hilko's Carpatho-Russian Christmas Carol album from St. John's Russian Orthodox church in Passaic, NJ from the 1950's, the carols will bring back fond memories!

LogosUzhorod posted the Hierarchichal Divine Liturgy from the Greek Catholic Cathedral in Uzhorod from Christmas, January 7, 2012. I see that the papal nuncio to Ukraine was present. It is interesting and Bishop Milan of the Eparchy of Mukachevo has been diligent in removing Latinizations during his episcopacy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc3BGS87yLs&feature=g-u&context=G25db2feFUAAAAAAABAQ
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 11:46:53 AM »

For those of you who remember Prof. Hilko's Carpatho-Russian Christmas Carol album from St. John's Russian Orthodox church in Passaic, NJ from the 1950's, the carols will bring back fond memories!

Is that available anywhere for purchase or online for listening purposes? 
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 11:57:00 AM »

Podkarpatska, is the language of the homily typical for Ruthenian congregations?  And for the thorny question - what language is the homily in?  angel
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2012, 12:09:03 PM »

Podkarpatska, is the language of the homily typical for Ruthenian congregations?  And for the thorny question - what language is the homily in?  angel

The homily is in the Rusyn dialect. Being honest, it is similar to the Ukrainian spoken in western Ukraine and Galicia with a few accents and twists. The closer you get to Bardejev, Slovakia the more Slovak influences the language, the closer to Uzhorod the similarities grow with formal Ukrainian.  I think that the epistle and gospel are also in this dialect - not Slavonic...

When I was a boy, it was common to hear homilies in Rusyn, but I haven't heard it spoken or preached here in the states for maybe thirty years at least - even forty. Not too many of us speak it anymore- our parents were into 'Americanization' and most of us didn't learn it growing up.....
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2012, 02:03:56 PM »

Podkarpatska, is the language of the homily typical for Ruthenian congregations?  And for the thorny question - what language is the homily in?  angel

The homily is in the Rusyn dialect. Being honest, it is similar to the Ukrainian spoken in western Ukraine and Galicia with a few accents and twists. The closer you get to Bardejev, Slovakia the more Slovak influences the language, the closer to Uzhorod the similarities grow with formal Ukrainian.  I think that the epistle and gospel are also in this dialect - not Slavonic...

When I was a boy, it was common to hear homilies in Rusyn, but I haven't heard it spoken or preached here in the states for maybe thirty years at least - even forty. Not too many of us speak it anymore- our parents were into 'Americanization' and most of us didn't learn it growing up.....

Interesting.  I've never been exposed to actual Rusyn culture, so I was wondering whether that is typical Rusyn or if the priest attempting to speak standard Ukrainian with a Rusyn' accent.  I had no difficulty understanding it, but it definitely had a different accent than the local Ukrainian of East / Central Ukraine that I'm used to.  Is there any movement for using the vernacular as a liturgical language?  Except of the UOC (MP) it is fairly common to hear Ukrainian in church here.         

I'd love to go to Uzhhorod, but it is a 37-hour train ride from where I live.  One of these days...   
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2012, 02:16:44 PM »

Podkarpatska, is the language of the homily typical for Ruthenian congregations?  And for the thorny question - what language is the homily in?  angel

The homily is in the Rusyn dialect. Being honest, it is similar to the Ukrainian spoken in western Ukraine and Galicia with a few accents and twists. The closer you get to Bardejev, Slovakia the more Slovak influences the language, the closer to Uzhorod the similarities grow with formal Ukrainian.  I think that the epistle and gospel are also in this dialect - not Slavonic...

When I was a boy, it was common to hear homilies in Rusyn, but I haven't heard it spoken or preached here in the states for maybe thirty years at least - even forty. Not too many of us speak it anymore- our parents were into 'Americanization' and most of us didn't learn it growing up.....

Interesting.  I've never been exposed to actual Rusyn culture, so I was wondering whether that is typical Rusyn or if the priest attempting to speak standard Ukrainian with a Rusyn' accent.  I had no difficulty understanding it, but it definitely had a different accent than the local Ukrainian of East / Central Ukraine that I'm used to.  Is there any movement for using the vernacular as a liturgical language?  Except of the UOC (MP) it is fairly common to hear Ukrainian in church here.         

I'd love to go to Uzhhorod, but it is a 37-hour train ride from where I live.  One of these days...   

As far as I know, the Orthodox in Slovakia have made no effort to use the vernacular beyond the reading of the Epistle and the Gospel. The Greek Catholics have transitioned to Slovak in many places as over time, that has replaced the spoken Rusyn in the more cosmopolitan areas and cities and among the under forty generation. I have heard that that change brought some people to the Orthodox, howeve,r how much of that was fanciful thinking, I do not know. There are idiomatic words that are common in authentic spoken Rusyn that are not heard in formal, modern Ukrainian, but the formal written Rusyn is similar to modern Ukrainian.
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 04:46:40 PM »

Wow, I haven't heard that Only Begotten Son in quite a while.  Very nice, Nektarios, this is just like liturgies you find in my area of the world outside the Russians (OCA) and Greeks and Antiochians.  Same singing.  The Slavonic has fallen away a good bit and most of the prostopinije is conducive to singing in Slavonic not English.  When things are done in Slavonic the people sing so loud.  It is usually the diak that resists the Slavonic these days.
I can see liturgical/rubric differences.  The Greek Catholics (byzcaths included) sing "God Grant you many years" when the bishop blesses with the trikiri and dikiri instead of Eis polla eti despota.
Wow, same tones and everything as here, and fyi, the four UOC churches in my area all use service books for certain things from ACROD and it is a mix of Galacian and Prostopinije.  The ACROD here is strictly Prostopinije but some use choral as well, but not the one near me.  
I wish the ACROD would re-institute the small litanies between antiphons.  They need to re-institute the three litanies after the Gospel, especially the litany of catechumens.  They need to put their curtains back up behind the royal doors.  At least ACROD uses the silent epeclesis as does the UOC.
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2012, 05:06:38 PM »

Wow, I haven't heard that Only Begotten Son in quite a while.  Very nice, Nektarios, this is just like liturgies you find in my area of the world outside the Russians (OCA) and Greeks and Antiochians.  Same singing.  The Slavonic has fallen away a good bit and most of the prostopinije is conducive to singing in Slavonic not English.  When things are done in Slavonic the people sing so loud.  It is usually the diak that resists the Slavonic these days.
I can see liturgical/rubric differences.  The Greek Catholics (byzcaths included) sing "God Grant you many years" when the bishop blesses with the trikiri and dikiri instead of Eis polla eti despota.
Wow, same tones and everything as here, and fyi, the four UOC churches in my area all use service books for certain things from ACROD and it is a mix of Galacian and Prostopinije.  The ACROD here is strictly Prostopinije but some use choral as well, but not the one near me.  
I wish the ACROD would re-institute the small litanies between antiphons.  They need to re-institute the three litanies after the Gospel, especially the litany of catechumens.  They need to put their curtains back up behind the royal doors.  At least ACROD uses the silent epeclesis as does the UOC.

Yes indeed, it is odd that the Slovak Greek Catholics seem to have shed more Latin shortcuts than has been done in the USA. although they are also 'all over the place' on those issues depending on priest and parish ....The priest's diction was as I was taught to learn Slavonic by my father. Follow him along with a prayerbook and you will pick up how to do it.
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2012, 05:29:22 PM »

Beautiful Liturgy!

It's funny how the brain works. I knew enough Ukrainian to follow the language, and enough of the Russian melodies from my time in an OCA parish to be able to follow along with the Rusyn.
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2012, 05:32:20 PM »

I wish the ACROD would re-institute the small litanies between antiphons. 

At least they sing the antiphonslaugh
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2012, 06:08:00 PM »

There are idiomatic words that are common in authentic spoken Rusyn that are not heard in formal, modern Ukrainian, but the formal written Rusyn is similar to modern Ukrainian.

That makes sense that formal written Rusyn would likely have heavier Ukrainian influence and the informal spoken language would be significantly less comprehensible to a Ukrainian speaker.  Trying to find audio of that isn't so easy. 

The priest's diction was as I was taught to learn Slavonic by my father.
 

I agree, election diction here.  It is amazing to me just how poorly so many priests handle Church Slavonic (by this I mean native Russian speakers).  It isn't uncommon to here a standard Russian "г", Russian stress, vowel reduction and ого pronounced ово in these parts.  If someone who has presumably completed a decent amount of related education still can't even properly such a language, why are we still liturgizing in it? 
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2012, 06:49:16 PM »

There are idiomatic words that are common in authentic spoken Rusyn that are not heard in formal, modern Ukrainian, but the formal written Rusyn is similar to modern Ukrainian.

That makes sense that formal written Rusyn would likely have heavier Ukrainian influence and the informal spoken language would be significantly less comprehensible to a Ukrainian speaker.  Trying to find audio of that isn't so easy.  

The priest's diction was as I was taught to learn Slavonic by my father.
 

I agree, election diction here.  It is amazing to me just how poorly so many priests handle Church Slavonic (by this I mean native Russian speakers).  It isn't uncommon to here a standard Russian "г", Russian stress, vowel reduction and ого pronounced ово in these parts.  If someone who has presumably completed a decent amount of related education still can't even properly such a language, why are we still liturgizing in it?  

Indeed, I gave my son, a Seminarian who, like most kids his of his generation, never learned to sing Slavonic other than a few carols, Christos Voskres, a tropar or two, mnohaja lita and vichnaja pammat, a copy and told him to take my old Chlib Duse prayer book and follow the priest. (I did remind him NOT to memorize the part about the Pope! lol) He told me that they have a semester course in learning how to read it and pronounce it - not understanding it....
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2012, 07:22:01 PM »

There are idiomatic words that are common in authentic spoken Rusyn that are not heard in formal, modern Ukrainian, but the formal written Rusyn is similar to modern Ukrainian.

That makes sense that formal written Rusyn would likely have heavier Ukrainian influence and the informal spoken language would be significantly less comprehensible to a Ukrainian speaker.  Trying to find audio of that isn't so easy.  

The priest's diction was as I was taught to learn Slavonic by my father.
 

I agree, election diction here.  It is amazing to me just how poorly so many priests handle Church Slavonic (by this I mean native Russian speakers).  It isn't uncommon to here a standard Russian "г", Russian stress, vowel reduction and ого pronounced ово in these parts.  If someone who has presumably completed a decent amount of related education still can't even properly such a language, why are we still liturgizing in it?  

Indeed, I gave my son, a Seminarian who, like most kids his of his generation, never learned to sing Slavonic other than a few carols, Christos Voskres, a tropar or two, mnohaja lita and vichnaja pammat, a copy and told him to take my old Chlib Duse prayer book and follow the priest. (I did remind him NOT to memorize the part about the Pope! lol) He told me that they have a semester course in learning how to read it and pronounce it - not understanding it....

That boggles the mind: first that it takes a semester to learn how to read and pronounce Church Slavonic and second that they don't teach the actual language.  Even in the old country, people don't really understand Church Slavonic.  Sure they understand the repeated parts of the liturgy from sheer repetition, but wouldn't have a snowball's chance in peklo of understanding movable text from vespers or matins.  Unless you have actually studied the language even basic things are amusing in Church Slavonic: "Приидите пиво пием новое"   angel  But it is a catch 22 of sorts - if you just pretend everyone understands CS you can keep up the pretense.  On the other hand if you start teaching it to people as a foreign language you then admit there is a certain impracticality to using it.
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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2012, 10:33:21 AM »

There are idiomatic words that are common in authentic spoken Rusyn that are not heard in formal, modern Ukrainian, but the formal written Rusyn is similar to modern Ukrainian.

That makes sense that formal written Rusyn would likely have heavier Ukrainian influence and the informal spoken language would be significantly less comprehensible to a Ukrainian speaker.  Trying to find audio of that isn't so easy.  

The priest's diction was as I was taught to learn Slavonic by my father.
 

I agree, election diction here.  It is amazing to me just how poorly so many priests handle Church Slavonic (by this I mean native Russian speakers).  It isn't uncommon to here a standard Russian "г", Russian stress, vowel reduction and ого pronounced ово in these parts.  If someone who has presumably completed a decent amount of related education still can't even properly such a language, why are we still liturgizing in it?  

Indeed, I gave my son, a Seminarian who, like most kids his of his generation, never learned to sing Slavonic other than a few carols, Christos Voskres, a tropar or two, mnohaja lita and vichnaja pammat, a copy and told him to take my old Chlib Duse prayer book and follow the priest. (I did remind him NOT to memorize the part about the Pope! lol) He told me that they have a semester course in learning how to read it and pronounce it - not understanding it....

That boggles the mind: first that it takes a semester to learn how to read and pronounce Church Slavonic and second that they don't teach the actual language.  Even in the old country, people don't really understand Church Slavonic.  Sure they understand the repeated parts of the liturgy from sheer repetition, but wouldn't have a snowball's chance in peklo of understanding movable text from vespers or matins.  Unless you have actually studied the language even basic things are amusing in Church Slavonic: "Приидите пиво пием новое"   angel  But it is a catch 22 of sorts - if you just pretend everyone understands CS you can keep up the pretense.  On the other hand if you start teaching it to people as a foreign language you then admit there is a certain impracticality to using it.

Which is why scant attention is paid to it at seminary these days and its use is on the verge of 'non-existant' in ACROD but for a few nostalgic reminders - such as singing Christos Voskrese here and there, Rozdestvo during one or two of the verses of the third antiphon and a Svatyj Boze here and there. I am 58 and I learned to cantor using it - that is to read, not understand it. There are few men or women younger than me in ACROD who could go to the 'Old Country' and meaningfully participate with or lead a group of cantors. That is not a bad thing, in my opinion for on the other hand, we have trained many young people in singing our chant tradition in English so that it might live on. http://acrod.org/ministries/youth/arena/ymultimedia/musicroom

Indeed, your comments  hit the nail on the head regarding all dead liturgical languages in my opinion.
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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2012, 03:45:49 PM »

I wish the ACROD would re-institute the small litanies between antiphons. 

At least they sing the antiphonslaugh

Well, who ACROD or the Ukrainians in Ukraine per this video?  Of course the antiphons are going to be longer on a feast day but standard antiphons are used in ACROD.  During lent I believe ACROD is supposed to also sing the beatitudes (either that or in paschal time).  I don't know if anyone does, they don't at the cathedral.  I'm not picking ACROD has come a long way I've been told with their liturgics. 
Heck, ACROD, OCA, UOC all had adoration of the blessed sacrament, I have a cope from an OCA parish near pittsburgh from those days. 
In some churches back in the day they'd have low mass.. no antiphons and start I believe after the antiphons, yes Orthodox churches (ie ACROD, UOC, not sure about the OCA).


here is the link to the American Carpatho Russian Orthodox diocese's liturgy
http://www.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/divineliturgy
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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2012, 04:32:45 PM »

I wish the ACROD would re-institute the small litanies between antiphons.

At least they sing the antiphons!  laugh

Well, who ACROD or the Ukrainians in Ukraine per this video?  Of course the antiphons are going to be longer on a feast day but standard antiphons are used in ACROD.  During lent I believe ACROD is supposed to also sing the beatitudes (either that or in paschal time).  I don't know if anyone does, they don't at the cathedral.  I'm not picking ACROD has come a long way I've been told with their liturgics.  
Heck, ACROD, OCA, UOC all had adoration of the blessed sacrament, I have a cope from an OCA parish near pittsburgh from those days.  
In some churches back in the day they'd have low mass.. no antiphons and start I believe after the antiphons, yes Orthodox churches (ie ACROD, UOC, not sure about the OCA).


here is the link to the American Carpatho Russian Orthodox diocese's liturgy
http://www.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/divineliturgy

Since the publication of our current Pew Book in 1988, the Beatitudes have been prescribed for Sunday usage year round excepting major feasts with a specific Third Antiphon. We sing them faithfully in the prostopenije version in English. As far as I recall that is also the practice in the Cathedral and has been the case at other Diocesan parishes I have attended in recent years.

As far as eucharistic adoration is concerned, I am 58, grew up in two parishes and attended more services in more places than most as a PK and in my lifetime we never had such observances nor did I ever know of one. That isn't to say that in the 1940's or 50's that they may still have been observed but not in my time.

Shortened liturgies were a carryover from Greek Catholic days in both the ACROD and UOC but they also are a thing of the long past. With the exception of following the Greek practice of deleting the Catachumen  and pre Creed litanies in some parishes, our Liturgy is virtually the same as a typical OCA parish. (Oh yeah... fewer 'Paki Paki's')
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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2012, 04:44:22 PM »

I should put a disclaimer;  I'm talking about rural coal crackin' rural parishes.  Really, couldn't remember about the beatitudes, and frankly I'm not putting anything down I grew up in all of this style.  If you want to get technical the Ukies and the Russians (OCA) both shorten their antiphons and don't sing the whole psalm. 

Yes and shortened liturgies are a thing of the past, in a case I know maybe only a 16 year past, but that's the .1 out of the 99.99%.  Yes they are a Greek Catholic carryover.  The Ukie Greek Catholics have recited non-sung Saturday liturgies.

there really isn't anything wrong with not having the fifteen litanies after the Gospel. 

the ACROD has a handbook for the priest that has different dismissal prayers from Liturgy don't they (it's from the Ruthenians)?  Lots of little stuff that the Carpies and Ukies do that the OCA/Russians and Greeks wouldn't do.  Shows the blending of east and west cultures, which is pretty cool.
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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2012, 04:58:56 PM »

The thing is a standarized liturgy across the North American continent would just be bland and boring.  It's good to have local customs (yes they have to be old world not jesse trees and mcdonald's in your easter basket) and variances.  If I wanted bland rote services I would attend a certain church from italy that is not far from me.  Nothing on the internet meshes with real life, and I like the mixing of cultures that so many will shun that exist here and over in Western (the) Ukraine (the is for nektarios).
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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2012, 05:06:03 PM »

I wish the ACROD would re-institute the small litanies between antiphons. 

At least they sing the antiphonslaugh

Well, who ACROD or the Ukrainians in Ukraine per this video?  Of course the antiphons are going to be longer on a feast day but standard antiphons are used in ACROD.  During lent I believe ACROD is supposed to also sing the beatitudes (either that or in paschal time).  I don't know if anyone does, they don't at the cathedral.  I'm not picking ACROD has come a long way I've been told with their liturgics. 
Heck, ACROD, OCA, UOC all had adoration of the blessed sacrament, I have a cope from an OCA parish near pittsburgh from those days. 
In some churches back in the day they'd have low mass.. no antiphons and start I believe after the antiphons, yes Orthodox churches (ie ACROD, UOC, not sure about the OCA).


here is the link to the American Carpatho Russian Orthodox diocese's liturgy
http://www.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/divineliturgy

I think you missed the joke. If you clicked on the link, you would see on Christmas Day in my parish, they just decided to replace Orthodox hymns with Western Christmas Carols.

In regards to the discussion on length of the Liturgy, on a normal Sunday, Liturgy usually runs about 1:30 in my parish.
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2012, 05:09:29 PM »

I wish the ACROD would re-institute the small litanies between antiphons. 

At least they sing the antiphonslaugh

Well, who ACROD or the Ukrainians in Ukraine per this video?  Of course the antiphons are going to be longer on a feast day but standard antiphons are used in ACROD.  During lent I believe ACROD is supposed to also sing the beatitudes (either that or in paschal time).  I don't know if anyone does, they don't at the cathedral.  I'm not picking ACROD has come a long way I've been told with their liturgics. 
Heck, ACROD, OCA, UOC all had adoration of the blessed sacrament, I have a cope from an OCA parish near pittsburgh from those days. 
In some churches back in the day they'd have low mass.. no antiphons and start I believe after the antiphons, yes Orthodox churches (ie ACROD, UOC, not sure about the OCA).


here is the link to the American Carpatho Russian Orthodox diocese's liturgy
http://www.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/divineliturgy

I think you missed the joke. If you clicked on the link, you would see on Christmas Day in my parish, they just decided to replace Orthodox hymns with Western Christmas Carols.

In regards to the discussion on length of the Liturgy, on a normal Sunday, Liturgy usually runs about 1:30 in my parish.

Sorry it's hard to always get stuff in the typed word of the internet.  Well, the priest probably had to let them sing Christmas carols rather than have his belongings thrown out in the street later on that night (ok, that's how some parishes used to roll in the old days).
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« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2012, 03:08:24 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr2mUDuCdDk&feature=related

How's this for some prostopinije!!  Great job, I think me and the family are going to the ACROD church this weekend, my church and the ACROD are the only Julian Calender churches in the immediate area and I gave up trying to live dual calenders, I only go by the Julian. 

The ACROD sounds just like this, albeit in English and some Slavonic.
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« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2012, 10:20:32 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr2mUDuCdDk&feature=related

How's this for some prostopinije!!  Great job, I think me and the family are going to the ACROD church this weekend, my church and the ACROD are the only Julian Calender churches in the immediate area and I gave up trying to live dual calenders, I only go by the Julian. 

The ACROD sounds just like this, albeit in English and some Slavonic.

When I was a kid, our cantor would always sing this hymn at the end of Vespers, I remember it well!
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