Author Topic: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?  (Read 2110 times)

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Offline mabsoota

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Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« on: December 28, 2011, 05:13:36 PM »
hi dear friends,
just wondered when yr church celebrates liturgy and if it is a new practice or if it has always been like this in your church?
my friend asked about that - she has a different orthodox background to me and wonders which churches first started the late night liturgy, or was it the late night liturgy that come first?

historically based answers please, no getting grumpy with each other!
;)

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2011, 05:16:17 PM »
My parish (UOC-USA) will be having the service of Great Compline at 11:30 on Friday, January 6 (Christmas Eve), and Divine Liturgy will be at 10:00 AM on Saturday, January 7th.

My grandmother always recalls how as a young girl they had midnight mass, however I'm not sure of the historical precedence for this.
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Offline Punch

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2011, 06:02:35 PM »
My parish (UOC-USA) will be having the service of Great Compline at 11:30 on Friday, January 6 (Christmas Eve), and Divine Liturgy will be at 10:00 AM on Saturday, January 7th.

My grandmother always recalls how as a young girl they had midnight mass, however I'm not sure of the historical precedence for this.

Same with the Serbian Church that I attend now, and the ROCOR Church I used to attend.  Execpt that the ROCOR found some way to make it longer.  I think they added Matins to it.  You know the Russians; they can add hours to eternity.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline mabsoota

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2011, 06:21:18 PM »
are u saying that the serbian and rocor churches now have a morning liturgy but used to have an evening one, or that they always had morning liturgies?
funny about the russian long services, sounds like our coptic good friday. this is a service from around 10am to 6pm, then another from around 11pm till 6am saturday (includes reading of book of revelation, lots of other readings, songs and prayers and then liturgy).
i only once made it to both services!

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2011, 06:40:16 PM »

My (UOCofUSA) parish has a Vespers service at 6 p.m. on the Eve of the Nativity (January 6), followed by a communal meal with 12 lenten dishes.

Liturgy is at 10 a.m., January 7th.

The only "midnight" we do is for Pascha.
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Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2011, 07:00:35 PM »
You know the Russians; they can add hours to eternity.

Ain't that the truth! LOL
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Offline Punch

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2011, 07:23:01 PM »
are u saying that the serbian and rocor churches now have a morning liturgy but used to have an evening one, or that they always had morning liturgies?
funny about the russian long services, sounds like our coptic good friday. this is a service from around 10am to 6pm, then another from around 11pm till 6am saturday (includes reading of book of revelation, lots of other readings, songs and prayers and then liturgy).
i only once made it to both services!

The ones that I have attended have some form of vigil with a Compline at night and a Liturgy in the Morning.  I don't know if this is the universal practice in these Churches or not, or if it is the historical practice or not. 
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline arimethea

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2011, 08:12:21 PM »
My parish (UOC-USA) will be having the service of Great Compline at 11:30 on Friday, January 6 (Christmas Eve), and Divine Liturgy will be at 10:00 AM on Saturday, January 7th.


First, if you are on the Old Calendar then observe the Old Calendar. Christmas is celebrate on December 25th no matter what calendar you are on, when December 25th is observed is the difference. To say you celebrate Christmas on January 7th actually is wrong, ask any true Old Calendarist and they will agree with me.

Now back to the initial question. Historically Christmas and Theophany both are similar to Pascha in how they are celebrated with Royal Hours, a Paramon Liturgy, followed by a Vigil and then, the festal Divine Liturgy. Pascha is almost always celebrated at Midnight while Throphany seems to always be on the morning of the feast. Christmas is strange because it is not even a Greek/ Russian division like most of these debates seem to be. The time of the Festal Christmas Liturgy seems to be a very localized parish practice. As long as it is being done on December 25th (what ever calendar you use to figure that date out) it is being done properly. 
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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2011, 08:18:27 PM »
This year, ours started at 10:30pm Saturday night and lasted til 2am Sunday morning.  We have usually had the liturgy on Christmas morning.  I think it was done this way so our bishop could fly back to California (he left at 6am Sunday morning).  Personally, I hope we go back to having the Christmas liturgy at about 10am on Christmas morning when we get a new priest.  Our bishop came and served to make sure that we got to have our Christmas services.

Offline Punch

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2011, 11:41:32 PM »
My parish (UOC-USA) will be having the service of Great Compline at 11:30 on Friday, January 6 (Christmas Eve), and Divine Liturgy will be at 10:00 AM on Saturday, January 7th.


First, if you are on the Old Calendar then observe the Old Calendar. Christmas is celebrate on December 25th no matter what calendar you are on, when December 25th is observed is the difference. To say you celebrate Christmas on January 7th actually is wrong, ask any true Old Calendarist and they will agree with me.

 

What a crock of BS. Every Old Calendarist that I know uses the civil date when speaking to mixed company, including me who has been on the Old Calendar since my conversion to Orthodoxy. The only ones that I have met that do otherwise are recent converts and the hard core schismatics from the made up groups.  Even the monks that I know (including my Godfather) use 25 Dec / 7 Jan, Feast of the Nativity when corresponding to those who are in the World.  So, I don't know what point your are trying to make other then cause trouble and discredit those of us who observe the Old Calendar.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline arimethea

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2011, 12:02:18 AM »
My parish (UOC-USA) will be having the service of Great Compline at 11:30 on Friday, January 6 (Christmas Eve), and Divine Liturgy will be at 10:00 AM on Saturday, January 7th.


First, if you are on the Old Calendar then observe the Old Calendar. Christmas is celebrate on December 25th no matter what calendar you are on, when December 25th is observed is the difference. To say you celebrate Christmas on January 7th actually is wrong, ask any true Old Calendarist and they will agree with me.

 
  Even the monks that I know (including my Godfather) use 25 Dec / 7 Jan, Feast of the Nativity when corresponding to those who are in the World.  So, I don't know what point your are trying to make other then cause trouble and discredit those of us who observe the Old Calendar.

Yes, they use "25 Dec /7 Jan" to make the point that I am making. You can not say Christmas is on 7 Jan by itself, you need to say first and foremost that it is on 25 Dec. My point was not to discredit those on the Old Calendar at all but to remind those that are on the Old Calendar to be actually on the Old Calendar and not some schizophrenic calendar that changes the date of when feast are celebrated.

It is false to say that Orthodox celebrate Christmas on January 7th because you are not observing the old calendar if you say that. We are better served to say that Orthodox celebrate Christmas on December 25th and, that day is observed on January 7th on the civil calendar.
Joseph

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2011, 12:11:05 AM »
My parish (UOC-USA) will be having the service of Great Compline at 11:30 on Friday, January 6 (Christmas Eve), and Divine Liturgy will be at 10:00 AM on Saturday, January 7th.


First, if you are on the Old Calendar then observe the Old Calendar. Christmas is celebrate on December 25th no matter what calendar you are on, when December 25th is observed is the difference. To say you celebrate Christmas on January 7th actually is wrong, ask any true Old Calendarist and they will agree with me.

I was providing the date and time that the services at my parish are going to be held this year. I was not opening a can of worms or looking for debate regarding the Old Calendar/New Calendar issue. The date I provided is the date that is on the calendar that most of civilization uses to schedule things. If I showed up on Dec 24th at 11:30 at my parish, I would have been stuck outside in the cold. I wrote January 6th, because that's the date that the service is scheduled for, liturgical calender or not.

I was not making a political statement, but rather answering a question regarding schedule. So no, I do NOT need to write Dec 25/Jan 7 as that is not how we schedule things in the "Real World."

Most, if not all of us on this board are familiar with the entire calendar issue within the Orthodox Church. If they are not, there are more than enough threads that explore the issue to death. I do not feel the need to make a political statement regarding the issue whenever the question of a calender comes up.

I included the words Christmas Eve in parenthesis in case anyone was wondering why my parish would have a Great Compline Service for the feast of the Nativity on January 6, since not all UOC-USA parishes are Old Calendar.

Seriously, if you have nothing better to do than to tear apart posts on such matters, you really need a new hobby. Would you also like to go back and point out all spelling and grammatical errors on this forum too, or are your corrections limited to only calendar issues?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 12:12:43 AM by HandmaidenofGod »
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2011, 12:23:12 AM »
midnight at mine.

Offline mildert

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2011, 03:37:15 AM »
At mine we started with Great Compline at 10:30pm followed by Mattins with the Liturgy starting at midnight.  I have also been to a Church in Russia where it was Compline, Litia, Mattins, Hours, Liturgy (one after the other).

I love the night services, but it is more difficult for families with young children.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2011, 05:55:02 AM »
This year, we celebrated a Vesperal Liturgy on Christmas Eve and an Orthros and Divine Liturgy on Christmas Day.  I can't recall the term our bishop uses to allow (reluctantly it seems) this practice.

It's only been in recent years that we celebrated a Liturgy on Christmas Day also.  Previously,  an Orthros (9:30p.m.) and Divine Liturgy was celebrated at 10:30p.m.  It was later moved back to 7:00 p.m. Orthros, Divine Liturgy at 8:00 p.m.

When the Christmas Day Divine Liturgy was added, the Christmas Eve Vesperal Liturgy was later moved back to 7:00p.m., and last year, to 6:00 p.m.

These time changes were intended to see if attendance would be increased.  Attendance was always good, but not excessive as it had been in our early days (early 1970's). 

This year, we began the Vesperal Liturgy at 5:00p.m. and had record breaking attendance, standing room only, and our church is large, especially compared to other Orthodox Churches in the U.S.  The Christmas Day Liturgy, (Orthros at 8:15 a.m., Liturgy at 9:30 a.m.) attendance was a little higher than usual, but that may be attributable to the fact that it was Sunday (a few who attended the previous evening's Vesperal Liturgy attend the Christmas Day Liturgy too.)
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2011, 07:39:52 AM »
We had Matins at 8am and Liturgy at 9am. On Christmas Eve there was only Vespers.

I wish we'd had some kind of midnight service. I rather like the idea of those.

Offline Schultz

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2011, 09:26:30 AM »
At my OCA parish, we had Compline and Matins at 6pm on the Christmas Eve then Divine Liturgy Christmas morning at 9am.  From what I gather, this is how it was always done at my parish.
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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2011, 09:41:31 AM »
At my parish in Warsaw we had on 24th Great Compline + Matins + first hour at 4 p.m and the next day Divine Liturgy at 10 a.m. The same with other parishes here. But some parishes in Poland, especially in Podlasie where is the biggest orthodox community, the All-night Vigil starts more or less at 11.pm. and then the Liturgy is served. In Serbia the Liturgy also is usually served at midnight. I hope one day there will be in Warsaw an orthodox church that I'll be able to go for the midnight Liturgy of Christmas combined with others services
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 09:44:44 AM by Dominika »
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Offline mabsoota

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2011, 03:08:28 PM »
wow, so it's a real mix.
in my church, the children love the midnight service, especially here in the uk where childrens' bed times are unnecessarily early (7 year olds go to bed at 7 or 8pm). the little ones stretch out on benches to snooze towards the end (when they are falling asleep on their feet) and are wakened for Holy Communion and the older ones (older than 6 or 7) love the fact that they don't have to go to bed!

i do wonder if our love of midnight services is partly due to the fact that you get to break your fast with meat etc. at 1am instead of waiting till the next day at lunch.
 ;)
thanks for all yr answers, i will forward them to my friend
 :)

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2011, 04:20:38 PM »
In our parish, we had midnight mass from 10pm-midnight, then morning liturgy at 930 am.

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Offline mabsoota

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2011, 04:48:39 PM »
are u allowed to partake of liturgy at midnight and again at midday?
we are not allowed 2 in one day.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2011, 04:59:41 PM »
are u allowed to partake of liturgy at midnight and again at midday?
we are not allowed 2 in one day.
The Eucharist was given at about 11:00. Of course I didn't take either  :laugh:

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2011, 06:29:14 PM »
are u allowed to partake of liturgy at midnight and again at midday?
we are not allowed 2 in one day.
The Eucharist was given at about 11:00. Of course I didn't take either  :laugh:

PP

But the priest did, didn't he?

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2011, 10:34:57 PM »
The Typicon calls for three Feasts to have two Liturgies: Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha.  For Christmas and Theophany, if Tues-Sat, the first is a Vesperal Liturgy of St Basil on the Eve followed by Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom the morning of the Feast.  If these Feasts fall on Sunday or Monday, the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom is served the morning of the Eve and the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the morning of the Feast.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2011, 10:40:12 PM »
I'm pretty sure my church is midnight. But we're mostly convertsky.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 10:40:34 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline mildert

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2011, 07:32:25 AM »
The Typicon calls for three Feasts to have two Liturgies: Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha.  For Christmas and Theophany, if Tues-Sat, the first is a Vesperal Liturgy of St Basil on the Eve followed by Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom the morning of the Feast.  If these Feasts fall on Sunday or Monday, the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom is served the morning of the Eve and the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the morning of the Feast.

Yes, but the first Liturgy is of the Eve, and the second of the Feast - otherwise people wouldn't be able the receive Holy Communion at both Liturgies.
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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2011, 10:20:26 AM »
hi dear friends,
just wondered when yr church celebrates liturgy and if it is a new practice or if it has always been like this in your church?
my friend asked about that - she has a different orthodox background to me and wonders which churches first started the late night liturgy, or was it the late night liturgy that come first?

historically based answers please, no getting grumpy with each other!
;)
At this time we celebrate liturgy in the morning.

The Christmas Eve service at our church includes Compline, Matins and a Litia at 6:00 PM.   On Christmas day we celebrate the Divine Liturgy at 10:00 AM.   

A few years ago, the Christmas Eve service (6:00 PM) concluded with the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great, but now it is just the Compline, Matins and a Litia.  But back then, we still had a Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom at 10:00 on  Christmas.


On the eve of  Theophany, we have Compline, Matins, and Liturgy of St. Basil the Great, but no service on Theophany itself. (we are a very small parish)

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2011, 11:39:36 AM »
are u allowed to partake of liturgy at midnight and again at midday?
we are not allowed 2 in one day.
The Eucharist was given at about 11:00. Of course I didn't take either  :laugh:

PP

But the priest did, didn't he?
Well, yeah but it was 2 separate days.


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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2011, 11:45:54 AM »
The Typicon calls for three Feasts to have two Liturgies: Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha.  For Christmas and Theophany, if Tues-Sat, the first is a Vesperal Liturgy of St Basil on the Eve followed by Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom the morning of the Feast.  If these Feasts fall on Sunday or Monday, the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom is served the morning of the Eve and the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the morning of the Feast.

Yes, but the first Liturgy is of the Eve, and the second of the Feast - otherwise people wouldn't be able the receive Holy Communion at both Liturgies.

Vespers starts the liturgical day, so whether one serves the Vesperal Liturgies in the morning/afternoon of the Eve or at an actual evening hour the Feast has started.
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Offline AWR

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2011, 01:26:50 PM »
The Typicon calls for three Feasts to have two Liturgies: Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha.  For Christmas and Theophany, if Tues-Sat, the first is a Vesperal Liturgy of St Basil on the Eve followed by Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom the morning of the Feast.  If these Feasts fall on Sunday or Monday, the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom is served the morning of the Eve and the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the morning of the Feast.

Yes, but the first Liturgy is of the Eve, and the second of the Feast - otherwise people wouldn't be able the receive Holy Communion at both Liturgies.

Vespers starts the liturgical day, so whether one serves the Vesperal Liturgies in the morning/afternoon of the Eve or at an actual evening hour the Feast has started.

I agree that Vespers is mostly the start of the liturgical day, but the  Vesperal Liturgy is the Liturgy for the day that is ending not the day that is about to start.   The same goes for a Presanctified Liturgy, it is during vespers, but it is for the day that is ending.   Just like one can partake communion at Presanctified on Friday night and again at Liturgy on Saturday morning, one can partake at a Vesperal Liturgy and at the feast day Liturgy.

(By the way,  during Holy Week, Vespers does not start the liturgical day, Matins is flipped to the start.)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 01:28:15 PM by AWR »

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2011, 02:01:49 PM »
The Typicon calls for three Feasts to have two Liturgies: Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha.  For Christmas and Theophany, if Tues-Sat, the first is a Vesperal Liturgy of St Basil on the Eve followed by Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom the morning of the Feast.  If these Feasts fall on Sunday or Monday, the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom is served the morning of the Eve and the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the morning of the Feast.

Yes, but the first Liturgy is of the Eve, and the second of the Feast - otherwise people wouldn't be able the receive Holy Communion at both Liturgies.

Vespers starts the liturgical day, so whether one serves the Vesperal Liturgies in the morning/afternoon of the Eve or at an actual evening hour the Feast has started.

I agree that Vespers is mostly the start of the liturgical day, but the  Vesperal Liturgy is the Liturgy for the day that is ending not the day that is about to start.   The same goes for a Presanctified Liturgy, it is during vespers, but it is for the day that is ending.   Just like one can partake communion at Presanctified on Friday night and again at Liturgy on Saturday morning, one can partake at a Vesperal Liturgy and at the feast day Liturgy.

(By the way,  during Holy Week, Vespers does not start the liturgical day, Matins is flipped to the start.)

I will agree for Presanctified, Annunciation, and Holy Thursday.  I will disagree for Christmas, Theophany, and Pascha (although Pascha is a thing unto itself).  Refer to the Typicon and Menaion.  Dec 24 is the Vigil.  It has its own Vespers text that are taken on the evening of Dec 23 the start of liturgical Dec 24.  Evening Dec 24 is the start of liturgical Dec 25.  We have become so conditioned to the rule of one Liturgy, one Altar, one Priest, one Communion on one Day that when the Typicon actually excepts this rule for the three greatest Feasts and allows two Liturgies and two Communions on the same Liturgical day (although different civil days) we seek an explanation that seems to fit the rule rather than accept these are the exceptions that prove the rule.   
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Offline Hiwot

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2012, 06:54:20 PM »
hi dear friends,
just wondered when yr church celebrates liturgy and if it is a new practice or if it has always been like this in your church?
my friend asked about that - she has a different orthodox background to me and wonders which churches first started the late night liturgy, or was it the late night liturgy that come first?

historically based answers please, no getting grumpy with each other!
;)

EOTC, everywhere, will celebrate the Nativity Liturgy at mid night and will finish at the latest at 3 Am , vigil starts at 9 PM in most churches at the earliest, or 10PM  at the latest.

Blessed Nativity for All!
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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2012, 07:39:09 PM »
We had Royal Hours at 9 this morning followed by Vesperal Divine Liturgy. Tonight at 10:30 we will have Vigil (Great Compline and Matins) followed by Divine liturgy. Probably break the fast around 2 am. :) Good thing there is a great 24 hr burger joint not far from the church. ;)

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Offline biro

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2012, 07:43:18 PM »
In my parish, because Christmas was on a Sunday (we are New Calendar), we had the liturgy in the morning. I have to admit, for me there's something special about the late Saturday to early Sunday liturgy we had the year before that.  :)
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2012, 01:51:35 AM »
In my parish, because Christmas was on a Sunday (we are New Calendar), we had the liturgy in the morning. I have to admit, for me there's something special about the late Saturday to early Sunday liturgy we had the year before that.  :)

Same here, on your entire post lol
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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2012, 06:08:38 AM »
My Church is a member of the Orthodox Church in America (my heart, however, belongs to the UOC of the USA  ;)  )


We had vespers Christmas eve at 5:30pm, and liturgy at 8am the next morning.

Most of my parish is elderly.  In the words of a sweet old lady "If they think they are going to get me out of bed for anything besides Pascha they've another thing comin'"

Oh, old ladies, what would our parishes be without you???   ;D

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Christmas liturgy - morning or midnight?
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2012, 06:30:48 AM »
My parish (UOC-USA) will be having the service of Great Compline at 11:30 on Friday, January 6 (Christmas Eve), and Divine Liturgy will be at 10:00 AM on Saturday, January 7th.

My grandmother always recalls how as a young girl they had midnight mass, however I'm not sure of the historical precedence for this.

Same with the Serbian Church that I attend now, and the ROCOR Church I used to attend.  Execpt that the ROCOR found some way to make it longer.  I think they added Matins to it.  You know the Russians; they can add hours to eternity.

:D
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 06:31:01 AM by trevor72694 »